Amen. BODY Life . It was ridiculous to see my own Brothers searching for "common ground" (i wonder if We can find it here; not so much, well how bout here, lol-) Knowing We are United In CHRIST. GOD Bless n Keep Ya, Brandon
If tongues and prophecy are “sign gifts” exclusively for the use of confirming apostles then why does Paul instruct the corinthian believers (not apostles) on how to use those gifts?
I appreciate you and your ministry, as a charismatic, hearing you, as a cessationist, say “I don’t think we win without the charismatics” was very humbling. God bless you
I appreciated that too until he insulted his guests by saying he would like to think they’re not really really crazy too. Unfortunately Joel comes across as rude, arrogant, and prideful, which is sadly the way many reformed Christians come across. And I say this as a reformed Christian of a very conservative Presbyterian perspective. Doug Wilson, on the other hand, seemed humble and gracious.
@@barnhouseexplosion3020 I agree, that’s something he needs to work on. But out of all the reformed cessationists who have ministries on Social Media, he definitely came across as much more charitable than any of the John MacArthur tribe.
@@barnhouseexplosion3020 Is that really how they come across? Or you just like to make yourself think so because of their confidence? If I survey my experience watching Christians across many social media channels and the pits of comment boxes everywhere, it's not the reformed going around attacking everyone else, but they are constantly under attack and insulted BY other just like you did here. Because they boldly proclaim truth that they are supremely confident in, they get labeled "arrogant, prideful" which is perhaps unwarranted. We live in a culture where the only people (apparently) who are allowed to display the most confidence in their personal opinions about things are either global warming alarmists and trans kids. Everybody else is supposed to act like nothing they say is really likely to be true at all. Labeling others arrogant simply because they believe what they say unapologetically is just a rhetorical device and isn't what arrogant means. Joel is not even close to being wrong by mentioning "crazy charismatics", because they ARE crazy. These are the very Christians that embarras the entire church with their out of control thematics and screaming and jumping about yelling jibberish. They are the ones demanding buckets of cash to hand out blessings and gifts, and turning "church service" into an unhinged madhouse. When most people think of "charasmatic" they don't immediately have a vision of a humble person pleading with God for a healing for a person in need. They think of some wild TV nut jumping around bopping people on the head with a bible and shouting FIRE! as they fall to the ground flailing around. They think of demon hunters casting out demons of allergies and whatever else. You don't tend to think of charismatics as calm pleasant people, just like you don't think of reformed as humble. If we want to cross these divides, we have to start understanding each other. Reformed or cessasionists aren't all doctrine-centered bible thumpers who think God is dead and doesn't work in his church any more, and charasmatics aren't all unhinged loonies.
@@barnhouseexplosion3020I'm pretty sure we can take that as dudes who know and love each other, giving each other a hard time. This is the way men in close relationship speak to each other. He stated at the beginning that they're friends and they know one another. They all took playful shots at one another the entire time. We can be too sensitive
As a cessationist, I sometime am told by my continuationist friends that my beliefs limit God. My position isn’t to limit God, it is to define what is “normative” in Christian life, and what is not. Cessationists whole heartedly agree that God may do whatever he pleases. Man cannot do whatever he pleases.
@@RCGWhoif that’s true then why aren’t we seeing the true church being added to in thousands and people speaking real foreign languages. Handkerchiefs being sent out and people being healed, the lame being raised up at the word of God, people being raised from the dead, real words of God being given, people walking out of prisons as angels open the doors, new words of God being added to the Bible?
@danielwarton5343 New words of God being added to the Bible? I wasn't advocating for that, but much of what you listed does take place, just not all on the same day to the same person. My understanding of personal prophecy is that its purpose is the encouragement, edification, and comfort of the person being ministered to. It also may contain words of knowledge including personal information not known to the prophet. I do believe a lot of why we don't see more of this and genuine and signs and wonders is unbelief, so we don't ask and we don't receive anything. As for the "real foreign languages", I have 2 replies. First, I have heard testimonies over the years of people hearing their actual native tongue being spoken by other believers. The second is that there are 2 different passages about tongues. In one passage in Acts that you are referencing that happened. In another passage, the tongue, or what some call their "prayer language", the tongue is known only to God. (1 Corinthians 14:2) I believe this distinction is between a personal, intimate tongue and the gift of a tongue with interpretation . Some of the daily prophets on yt who just seem to be arms of the republican party I find bizarre and wouldn't recommend them to anybody.
@danielwarton5343 Furthermore. Lol You and I cannot know all the testimonies of what is currently going on worldwide. If we only knew all that God is doing just today, you could fill books. Also, if per chance you are fellowshipping only with people of the DTS persuasion, you either won't be hearing them or you'd be dissing them. It's almost like sharing testimonies with an atheist. They will have an explanation for every miracle. Most Christians function like practical atheists. It's weird because so many are Calvinists and think God is sovereign in all things, but not in miracles. I'm rambling. That's my take.
@@RCGWho whilst trying to make a decision on whether the continuationist position was right, i asked God to guide me. I expected to be guided to a church that was charismatic. Instead i was guided to the teaching of a pastor based in Houston, who was taught by Lewis Sperry Chafer. Remakable, as i am english and have never been to the US. No internet 40 years ago.
The body of Christ is edified by respectful conversations like this. These are deep, profound, and important topics, and we all benefit by respectful conversations like this. Too many times such discussions devolve into shouting matches, and pompous arrogance on the part of the participants. I hope you continue to do more discussions like this around areas of disagreement among sincere, genuine bible believers. I was blessed by this video.
@@FrankinSmiththeology I have not stated my position on the topic. Also, I would not be so presumptuous as to assume I have come down perfectly on every one of the finer points of doctrine, though I have studied the Bible daily for the last 30 years. I am still trying to understand it more perfectly, and I find civil discourse more edifying than angry debate and name calling.
@@paulmcwhorter Once you figure out that calvanism has come to pervert the Gospel then you will realize it's a work of satan and use the Authority of God against it
@@FrankinSmiththeology Certainly not you. I am referring to how discussions like the one in this video typically go. Accusing the other side of not being saved and such. There are profoundly deep questions associated with rightly dividing the word of God, and the issue of cessationism is one of them.
This video really set the standard for what all discussion/debates should look like. Too often, the remnant guys are treated as heretics. However, that is not the case. Bravo guys!
52:52 “why the code?” Because it increases the chance of the “prophecy” coming “true”. Casts a broad net and congregants desperate for “healing” will make whatever code work for them. Satan/demons can also make a person ill/hurt and then remove the illness/hurt upon fake healing. This part of the discussion was painful. God never ever worked this way in scripture. Moses: “I’m looking for someone with a relative named Susan and to whom the number 5 means something” 🫠
As a former charismatic and now a cessationist. I totally agree with I don’t feel like I’m missing out on anything regarding the sign gifts. Most of the time I just tend to shake my head at what I use to believe.
Apparently you've never heard a word of knowlwedge or a dream that came true. I have heard quite a few from others (which I witnessed) plus words of knowledge/dreams I had myself--that came to pass. It's impossible to deny once you witness that. Most of them were ones I had. And my healings (2 of them) were from words of knowledge from another person.
@@ReLair88u have more chances with a soothsayer then men with “words of knowledge “ which modern prophets even predict marriages and finances that don’t come to pass most times .
@@lewislibre I was healed twice due to words of knowledge followed by prayer. The one above was high blood pressure which I had been on medication for over a year, which is exactly what the person told me int he word. He also said, the dr. made you increase your medication dosage this past week because your BP was higher--and you were mad. That was exactly right. I went off the meds and my blood pressure was normal from then on. I went to the nurse at IBM, where I worked, several times a week to have it checked for a few weeks and it was always normal. And also was normal at dr appts. The other one was nine years later--I had right hip pain to the point I couldn't stand or walk for very long. The person said it was right hip pain, a woman, and how long I'd had it. It was gone instantly after three people prayed for me for about 2-3 minutes. I felt it go. And it has never once hurt me since then.
I found most of Doug's concerns about prophecy to be confused. Paul says tongues+interpretation is equivalent to prophecy (1 Cor 14:5), and the only example we're given of that is on the Day of Pentecost when the Apostles' speaking in tongues was interpreted by the native speakers who heard them. The Apostles weren't creating Scripture. They weren't predicting the future. They were -- according to those who heard and interpreted them -- "declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues." Likewise in the Corinthian church where everyone was speaking in a tongue at once, they weren't crowd-sourcing Scripture sans interpretation. Neither were the two or three tongues and prophecies allowed by Paul's corrected order of worship meant to create Scripture. Where is the textual criticism that identifies evidence of the New Testament's patchwork compilation from what would have been thousands of individuals scattered across the Roman world? How were all those by-products of the gift of prophecy gathered in one place to create the finished canon? Did Peter, Paul, Mark, Luke, John and Jude cut-and-paste without giving due credit? Frankly, if the Scripture does not say the gifts have ceased (and my reading explicitly says they continue), then there's no reason to believe cessationists would not have expressed the same concerns and objections in A.D.54, when 1 Corinthians was written, that they express today.
@@johnangelformby106 I have personally seen a man raised from the dead in my home church in Christiansburg VA on a Sunday morning in 2003.. God chose to hear and answer - all Glory to Him. This is not a charismatic, or Pentecostal church.
The Remnant guys did ok. They still didn't convince me of their view. I also can't get past the fact that they support the nut jobs of the Charismatic movement.
I'm not saying you're wrong at all, because there certainly are wicked pretenders everywhere, but based on the early church's experience in Acts 2, in which everyone appeared to be drunk, I think we need to come up with a more effective metric than "they look nutty," especially since apparent foolishness (spitting in mud, circling Jericho, striking a rock) seems to be God's M.O. for activating our childlike faith and obedience while cutting through our respectability conceits.
@@thecrypt5823 well Josh said he gave prophecy that was almost completely accurate. In the Bible it's always 100% accurate and the prophets don't run around doing victory laps. All these modern "prophets" are nothing but charlatans.
@@thecrypt5823the early church in acts 2 were speaking in foreign languages that people didn’t all understand. I think they called them drunk because they seemed to be babbling to those who didn’t know the other languages. Nut jobs would be people like KennethCopeland and Todd White etc.
I find it odd at minute 51:33 there about Mr Rowntree describes prophetic word, with a vague letters and / or numbers voiced out to the group gathered. Flip over to clips of Char or Jonathan Edwards and these ‘mediums’ or mediums are speaking the exact same language. When I open my bible I see nothing that looks even vaguely like Mr Rowntrees description
Joel, you keep doing a great job of having guys talk with eachother. Stop it now, or the Church is going to mature, and we’re going to see more of that postmillenial maturity hope thing you keep going on about! Happy New Year brother. Thank you for the labor here! Praise the Lord for all of you!
Lord willing it'll help people realize the falseness of people over-emphasizing distinctions in a way that's not steel manning opponents, and tearing apart the Body when we could be working together to bring the Gospel to the nations- even while having real disagreements.
The woman with the issue of blood wasn't an Apostle. Yet her faith in Christ healed her. Christ said that these signs will likewise follow all who believe in Him. Including us. Blessings. 😊
Im sorry but saying someone with the initials JS with shoulder problem would literally by law of averages encompass a huge number of people. The miracles performed by the apostles and their associates were such that there was no other explanation than that it was a divine occurrence.
Douglas Wilson is a national treasure. I'm only sorry I discovered him so late in life. He has a wonderful "gift" of bringing out the best in people. Praise God! Thank you Pastor Joel for another informative and insightful show.
By what biblical warrant does anyone have the authority to decide which gifts ceased and which didn't when the Bible makes no such claim that any will?
That was an awesome surprise to see this debate come up on my feed. I've listened to all involved to various levels and respect all. I really enjoyed the subject and the tone of the debate. I'm on the reformed side of things, but somewhat uneasy with hard cessation doctrine as I have seen and read and experienced too much. I was pleasantly surprised at Joel and Doug's openness and experiences. I am very wary of charismatics that overemphasize gifts of the spirit. These movements become, from my perspective, subject to false prophets and charletons. On the flip side reformed churches can be dead to the power of God, to just as great a detriment. Anyway, I was very blessed by this and I think others will be too.
An observation from a continuationist: if a word is spoken in tongues, it must be interpreted to edify the body. If it not going to be interpreted, then it is between the believer in God. Either way, no one, including the one speaking in tongues, knows what they are saying, so what it sounds like doesn't matter. We can call it gibberish. We can call it an angelic language or language of heaven. We can call it a human language. None of that matters. It's either interpreted or kept to ourselves. So what it sounds like doesn't mean anything.
Yes, and the responses were just terrible. Why can't these guys stay focused on answering the questions directly? Every single response was evasive and misdirected.
Have you ever prayed and asked God if you should take a certain job or move your family to be missionaries etc. Do you believe God actually responds to your prayers and answers them or not? If He does answer them, then in what sense is it wrong to say "I believe God told me to take this job" or "I believe God is calling us to the mission feel". We can get into semantics but at the end of the day, it's still God speaking to us, no? If God can respond to our prayers and speak to us, why is it so outlandish a claim to say that God could speak to me for someone else? We're called to test and weigh everything, of course. I see you're a pastor, which means you likely preach. Do you have perfect theology? If not, should we say teaching is dangerous because you may speak authoritatively on God's written word and be incorrect as you speak on His behalf?
16:40 Doug's question is a nail in the coffin. The remnant guy answers with massive coping as to why there can be errors in "prophecy". There's a reason they can't have 100% accuracy standard, and it's because all those who claim to be prophets are bold face liars.
@@galaxyguy7579 His answer was literally "well sometimes Scripture is hard to understand" wth does that have to do with anything 😂 apples to oranges. Scripture has a clear test for those who claim to be prophets, and there is no room for error.
@@gianthebaptistGreat comment. There is no wiggle room for error. If you could still stone people for false prophecies in the name of God, I am sure many would stop trying to act like prophets.
All? "All those who claim to be prophets are bold faced liars?" I agree that everyone needs to be more careful regarding what they say, especially when making accusations about people they've most likely never met. The world is a big place and God is still working in the deepest, darkest parts of it. To claim He has no prophets working, healing and teaching where no one else dare tread is a mighty big assertion. I agree there are those who seek attention, glory and respect, especially in the west. If a real prophet were to walk on our streets, he certainly wouldn't want the position because he'd be an outcast and wouldn't be accepted within the greater body of Christ because as Biblical history teaches us, prophets are always rejected, persecuted, slandered and most likely killed for what comes out of their mouths.
Closed Canon and ongoing prophecy work when the word canon is understood as it is defined in dictionary: a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged. So the closed Canon of Scripture is the criterion by which everything else, including revelation, is to be judged.
I am an ardent fan of Doug, and I am reformed but the scriptural basis for spiritual gifts is hands down on the continuationist's side. I was actually shocked about how gracious this conversation was considering the divisiveness the new G3 movie has stirred up. This is causing havoc in our fellowship with true believers in our area. In fact--one of my very good friends felt like I needed to have an INTERVENTION because I simply believe what Paul wrote in Corinthians. I have yet to see any truly coherent BIBLICAL arguments that show me why I need to listen to man's theological gymnastics rather than holding fast to the actual words of God. I feel like the talking heads in this debate have been very reckless and very disingenuous and ungracious and have succeeded in scaring lots of believers and causing separation, suspicion and division from one another. It's heartbreaking, truly, so, thank you for a cordial discussion. Also, to your last question-- i think you're missing out on obedience to the Lord by despising prophecy and negating the clear teaching of Scripture.
Here’s the biblical argument that convinced me of cessationism (I compiled several comments where I described my position elsewhere): I believe the Bible says some (prophecies, tongues, knowledge) Spiritual gifts have ceased (1 Corinthians 13:8-12). They ceased when the perfect came. Those verses give multiple illustrations of a “partial to complete” theme. The “perfect” is the whole and complete canon of scripture (I will argue for this later), allowing us to see face to face like a perfectly polished mirror. Now that the canon has closed and we are no longer adding new books to the Bible as some sort of expanded edition of God’s eternally perfect word, the gifts of prophecies, tongues, and knowledge have fulfilled their purpose and are no longer in effect today. I will give some reasoning for why I think “the perfect” is in reference to the completed canon of scripture rather than the return of the morally perfect Christ Jesus: The canon of scripture closed when the last book of the Bible was written by John (Revelation 1:1-2). Man does not declare what the canon of scripture shall be; rather God speaks and creates His canon which He has preserved through the ages since it was first given. I’ve heard some say the canon wasn’t complete until the Protestant reformation; this is false. Because nobody prior to the Protestant Reformation was waiting for God to give His final words to be included in the Bible, His canon had already been canonized well before the Protestant Reformation. Now in 1 Corinthians, chapters 12-14 are dealing heavily with spiritual gifts. At the time of Paul’s writing, the Corinthians were absolutely called to earnestly desire those gifts (12:31, 14:1, 14:5), but even more still to love each other with unity in the same Spirit (12:4,13:1-13). And even more than speaking in tongues too, Paul says it is better for the church not to be infantile in their thinking but to instead be mature men through sharing interpretable prophecies given specifically for the sake of building up the church (14:19-20, 22, 3-5). So, prophecies build up the church. Likewise, God’s canonized Word is given to make the church wise for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, and all scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching/reproof/correction/training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17). In relation to scripture equipping the man of God for every good work and “completing” him, it is helpful to finally consider “the perfect” referenced in 1 Corinthians 13:10. The Greek used in 1 Corinthians 13:10 for the perfect is τέλειος/teleios. This word does not exclusively mean “morally perfect,” although it certainly can include a sense of moral perfection. But this word is often used elsewhere in scripture to reference perfection in terms of being finished, or fully grown, or adult, or mature, or lacking nothing in completeness. In fact, this same word is used in 1 Corinthians 14:20 telling them to be τέλειος/teleios, translated as to be “men”. It simply isn’t true when you assert that the “perfect” has no basis for being in reference to the canon of scripture. Paul says to be men (stop speaking/thinking/reasoning like a child 1 Corinthians 13:11) through the means of pursuing prophecies, which are given to the church for building up the church. This too is what scripture is for, but scripture is preserved whereas prophecies will cease (1 Corinthians 13:10). The prophecies allowed them to see themselves reflected dimly in somewhat-polished metal, but when the canon was completed they could see themselves as in a perfectly polished mirror (i.e. face to face). This aligns with how scripture “completes” the man of God and equips us for absolutely every single good work. To offer a bit more elaboration on why I don’t think “face-to-face” is in reference to us looking at Christ’s face someday, I want to take “face-to-face” in 1 Corinthians 13:12 naturally and contextually. It is talking about seeing in a dim mirror and then, when the perfect comes, we will see face-to-face. Notice that it doesn’t start verse 12 by saying they saw in a “mirror,” but rather it says they saw in a “mirror dimly”. You have to consider that when Paul wrote this letter, they didn’t have mirrors like we have today in 2023. The mirrors in their time were made from polished metal, but those dim mirrors did not produce the seemingly perfect reflection we have today in our modern mirrors. So Paul is saying that, like a child someday finally becoming a man, or like polished metal finally becoming totally polished so that you can see “face-to-face” when you look at it, so too the “perfect” (completed; final state) canon of scripture will allow for the partial (prophecy) to pass away. Proverbs 27:19 also uses the concept of “seeing face-to-face” when talking about looking in still water. So, very often the phrase “face-to-face” isn’t meant to be taken literally where two different people are staring at each other, but rather it often means one person sees themselves clearly in a reflection. Being able to see yourself “face-to-face” held a bit more weight back then because they didn’t have modern mirrors or cameras to see themselves clearly all the time. Objection: We won’t be morally perfect or complete/mature until we’re in heaven. Response: You’re saying we won’t be perfect/complete/mature until we are in heaven with Christ and made as such. What then do you make of 2 Timothy 3:17 where it says that scripture (the Bible) is given to us (right here today) so that the men of God (us) may be “perfect” (complete), equipped for every good work? I mentioned 2 Timothy 3:17 recognizing that it is indeed a different underlying Greek word, but as I understand the verses we’re discussing, those words mean perfect in the same sense. That is, I don’t think either 2 Timothy 3:17 or 1 Corinthians 13:10 deal with “moral” perfection. Rather, my understanding is that both verses are speaking of perfection in terms of “completion”. I appreciate that you recognize how you would cede the argument if 2 Timothy 3:17 used Telios instead of Artios (and obviously I think your reasoning there would be sound haha), but if both words overlap in definitions of perfection/completeness, then it still seems like a reasonable interpretation to use back in 1 Corinthians 13. In addition to the reasons above, I also just don’t see how “moral” perfection fits the context of 1 Corinthians 13 when it seems more so to be emphasizing a partial-to-complete theme. Objection: The canon can’t “know” us as described in 1 Corinthians 13:12. Response: Your argument on “knowing as we are known” is part of what I’ll want to study a bit more when I have more time. On the surface it seems like a decent argument against my overall understanding of that passage, but I need more time to consider just how “personally” it should be taken. My (often-flawed-and-in-need-of-further-sanctification) intuition is uncomfortable saying things like “scripture is an object that doesn’t know us personally”. Hebrews 4:12 describes scripture in a way that seems quite personal to me, as it is God’s word, living and active, piercing, and even “discerning” the thoughts and intentions of the heart. But again, I’d like to study what you’re saying a bit more. Those are just some of the cuff thoughts. I don’t think I’m logically concluding that “the completed book made of paper and leather” know me and I stand face-to-face with it. There is a necessary distinction between our transcription of God’s Word and God’s Word itself. I am arguing that the perfect is “the canon” rather than “the written”. Really not trying to nitpick but I think it matters since you brought it up. It isn’t the paper and leather that knows us, nor is it the Bible app on my phone or Blue Letter Bible. But it is the word of God that is truly able to discern the thoughts and intentions of our hearts (Hebrews 4:12). If the word of God can do that discerning, it seems fair to me to think that it could also do the knowing of 1 Corinthians 13:12. I don’t understand why you doubled down on the assertion that the necessary logical conclusion for me would be that the perfect that knows me would be “the completed book made of paper and leather.” All I’m saying is that is not how I am defining the “canon of scripture” to which my whole argument refers. If every paper and leather book in the world were to burn tomorrow, my argument would be unaffected because that’s not what I think the canon of scripture is. I’m arguing for the “perfect” being the canon of scripture defined as “every jot and tittle of God’s word that has been intentionally preserved by God through man for all future generations.” Not every working of God has been intended to be preserved for all, but the Lord gives and the Lord takes. We have the canon God wants us to have, no matter what form we have it in (books, computers, memory, etc.). Objection: “Face to face” refers to us seeing God. Response: And regarding the face-to-face points, I don’t deny that the phrase does indeed mean “one person to another” sometimes. All I am pointing out is that it is Biblically permissible for the phrase “face-to-face” to be in reference to seeing oneself in a reflection. This is what is happening in Proverbs 27:19 if you look at the phrase in Hebrew.
@@hardboard82 you have it all there and when presented in this way it seems straightforward and easy to see that the continuationists are lead by wanting something that is not prescribed for us now.
@@hardboard82I noticed at least some of this came from a prior conversation with me. Curious how you have come to understand "know as we are known"...and I wonder if you've considered this the partial and complete that is being referenced instead. Because like I said previously, right now we only have a partial knowledge of Christ but then when we stand face to face we will know fully as we are known. Does this make sense? Again, that word know is more than just discerning, it's actually the relational word for knowing someone personally.
Wait, so the people arguing that healing still happens on a massive scale are LITERALLY saying themselves that they are doing something which is indistinguishable from what cold-reading charlatans do? You can't make this stuff up....
I would strongly but respectfully disagree with DW on including a hypothetical discovery of Philips daughters as Scripture. Jesus said many things that weren't included. That doesn't take away from His deity that things weren't included. That is the wisdom of God in choosing what and what not to include.
These continuationists actually gave the best responses that I’ve heard from their side. Cool to see some guys actually stand their ground in a respectful manner. They didn’t persuade me, not even close. But still interesting.
Being raised in a prophetic environment. I just feel cessationist are doing themselves a disservice. Having someone prophecy your very thoughts and things you have been praying about to confirm that God actually knows you personally and is infact listening and knows the very utterances of your own personal heart, is an amazing experience and is life giving.
It’s almost impossible to persuade anyone who deliberately refuses to believe. Jesus’s resurrection didn’t persuade Pharisees that he is an authentic Messiah either. Your disbelief is amazing!
This one video contains almost everyone who convinced me to leave a NAR church back in 2022. If James White was holding the camera for Joel, than I could drop the almost.
I so appreciate that you had The Remnant Radio on your show! I think too many cessationists refuse to consider their arguments. I used to kind of default to cessationism, but after hearing their Biblical support for continuationism, on their channel, they've convinced me. Simply based on Scripture.so glad to see believers not dividing over this.
Grew up Pentecostal. Never once did someone say "Thus sayeth the Lord" and what they said actually came true, if "prophetic" nor was it in fact true if revealing something not commonly known. It was always made up. This experience along with several verses discussed here and the great love chapter from Paul in Corinthians, turned me into a committed cessationist.
As a veteran of many churches I can say I refuse to go to go to any church professing signs and wonders. When people profess they can call down Miracles I run the other way. Miracles happen all the time. They have happened to me and most assuredly to you as well. God intervines in our lives when we least expect it. I have never found those churches to be healthy or sound or those people fun to be around.
Just a thought to consider, the counterfeits don't disprove the real thing. I'm a continuationist, and I also freely admit that most of the whackos are on my side.
Well God healed me instantly when I was prayed for in a meeting. As for all the excess ,well so what. Do people go to excess when in love ,yup . But that doesn't nullify that love is good and real
Miracles foster unbelief. Paul, Trophimus, Timothy, etc., were never healed...Miracle Dynamics: God's great miracles through Moses filled Egypt with undeniable evidence for the God of Israel (Ex. 9:27). Yet neither the Bible nor history records Egyptian repentance, only good riddance (Ps. 105:38; Ex. 12:35-36; 14:25). Further and more dramatic, consider the effect of those tremendous miracles on Israel. God followed the 10 plagues (Ex. 7:14-12:30) done on behalf of Israel with the parting of the Red Sea (Ex. 14:21-22) and the drowning of the Egyptian army (Ex. 14:26-28). Then daily for 40 years God appeared to the entire nation as a column of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night (Ex. 13:21-22; Num. 14:14; Neh. 9:12; Ps. 105:39). The Lord kept their clothes from wearing out (Deut. 8:4), produced water out of the Rock (Ex. 17:2-6), fed the people with angels food from heaven (Ex. 16:4-7) and brought meat on demand, literally filling their camp with quail (Num. 11:31-32; Ps. 105:40). Yet with all this, virtually the entire nation rejected God: For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? ... Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? Heb. 3:16-17 ...and in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation... was gone. Num. 32:13 Jesus did great miracles and crowds followed Him, but mostly out of selfishness. Of thousands who received His miracles, few worshiped Him. Of 10 lepers healed, only one even said thanks (Luke 17:17). Generally, Christ's miracles did not win over the crowds (Mat. 8:34; 11:20; 13:58; Mark 15:8-15; Luke 4:23-28; 8:37; 17:17; John 5:8-10; 10:25-39; 12:29-30). The Lord explained it this way: "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead." Luke 16:31 Why not? With one's eyes one may see a dead body resurrected, but faith does not come by sight. Rather, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). So even Jesus' own city rejected its miracle-working Messiah (Mark 6:4-6).
Great points. The constant desire for miracles seems to be a limit test for unbelief as well. Almost a doubt based belief unless proven otherwise by signs and wonders. Really it will never be enough.
@@tomtemple69 Agreed and they were for that time in order to set the foundation for the Jesus's church. There's no need for apostolic succession unless we are saying the foundation of Christ and the original apostles was not enough. Apostolic succession is a major principle of Catholicism which ended up in constant changes to doctrine and the elevation of church tradition over the authority of scripture.
@@rinihogewoning6528 that's what all these charismatics need to claim otherwise one of the gifts has ceased Therefore, just redefine and expand the definitions to include anything, that's why they don't have a problem with someone giving false prophecies
At 51:30 it started getting strange. It all sounds good when you are using scripture and making biblical arguments. But… if the outflow of those beliefs is “prophetic words” about strings of numbers, no thanks.
I do not find a category in Scripture where Gods word is maybe Gods word. If the Canon is closed, and no words spoken should become John 22, then how can these words be said to be from God? Are there any words God directs to us, where we can flip a coin, or make some kind of analysis upon to decide whether we're gonna obey Him? If you say we do this with sermons, I'd say no we don't. A sermon is to be expounding Gods word, a so call modern prophecy, is expounding what? It's not Scripture...
I enjoyed the discussion. I am a continuationist only because the Bible doesn't say the gifts will cease before Christ comes. That said, I think what passes as the miraculous gifts in most continuationist churches is complete nonsense. I cringed at the end of the discussion when mentalist tricks were being passed off as prophecy. "I'm seeing someone with the initials __ and the numbers __ [today's date 🤦♂️] and they have back pain." That's a bad joke. 🙄 And in response to that bad joke, we're told that God speaks in various ways and we should limit Him. There isn't a single verse in the Bible that backs up that kind of mentalist playing-of-the-odds trick.
The behavior of charismatics with all their antics is perhaps the best testimony that their position is wrong. False prophecy neither comes from God and is comdemned by death in the law. Often the teacher will attribute the gifts to themselves being gifted vs God. Speaking in spiritual tongues is gibberish and slaying in the spirit is pagan mysticism. And he described things performed by psychics and occultics as being gifts. Lastly, female preachers is tolerated. Know a tree by its fruit and the fruit of their theology speaks for itself.
Do I obey a prophecy I believe contradicts Scripture? You'd say no (I assume), Scripture is the sole infallible word etc. Great, then why do I need another? Why does God preserve 66 books over thousands of years, tell me I live by every word therein, and then say, "Oh, and listing to Bill's word too."
Cessationism would have to cancel a lot of scripture, any supernatural manifestation are frowned upon, emotional exuberance in worship is frowned upon. Manifestation of demonic reality in this world is almost denied because it is so unpleasant. no wonder such theology lulls everyone to sleep. But I still like Doug Wilson. I remember RC Sproul giving a testimony praying for a specific need, decision he had to make and was surprised when it was realized that which he prayed for and was pleasantly surpised because he was a Cessationist. It is almost like saying iIam a halfway Christian because I do not believe so much in the supernatural because we have full council of God in Scripture, therefore discard the super natural....
For all those using "experience" as the yardstick for cessationism, I'll urge you to reconsider because it's unbiblical and smacks of a lack of faith. Has any among you ever seen Jesus Christ before? So why do you believe in Him? Isn't it because of faith, powered by God's Word? So how can you in one breath claim that atheists are fools because they refuse to believe in Christ and yet use that same argument against Continuationists because they believe what the Bible says we should do. To "earnestly desire the Spiritual gifts". Rather than trying to distort the Bible to defend "your theology", let's believe what the Bible says and earnestly desire the gifts. And if you believe that you don't need certain gifts because Scripture is sufficient, that is totally fine. But don't gaslight others' belief of Scripture simply to elevate your views. God bless you all.
Cessationism doesn’t mean that nothing supernatural or miraculous can ever occur. This is a crazy misunderstanding of the doctrine. It simply means that we don’t and won’t have any more figures like the OT prophets or the NT apostles - those were special occurrences and were accompanied by (canonical) special revelation recording the instances and interpreting them through God’s perspective. So, if someone today works a miracle through Christ today, they do not do so because they are a prophet or apostle or because they have any other special status before God - they do so solely due to the mercy and Providence of God.
I think Josh is mistaken here in 18:20 about John 12. His point hes seemingly trying to make is self refuting. If you follow his logic to its conclusion, then the Apostle himself would also be unclear about what was being spoken to him from God. This means that the scripture which was recorded by John could be in fact not inerrant, because John’s interpretation is, in the continuationsist’s view, theoretically fallable
I've been in an in-between space on Cessationism for years. This friendly debate has helped answer some of my personal wondering, especially about how healing and prophecy are handled on each side.
Good to hear. I'd also say that such a topic, shortened down to about an.hour, doesn't fully cover the scope, and so I'd encourage other videos, but this was enlightening.
Question if the gifts continue today can anyone name someone who is performing miracles that look the same as they did during the time of Christ's Apostles. Just 1. Raised someone from the dead, restored sight to someone blind, someone lame from birth walks? Repeatedly
Heidi Baker. A medical team went to Mozambique and recorded that 70% of the blind people she prayed for gained their sight. And God used a pastor in a sister church raised a man from the dead.
There are no modern prophets, no modern healers and no modern biblical tongues, yet people still pretend to have Apostolic gifts. That's a sin, please follow a good, biblically accurate teacher and repent of this. God can heal and does all the time and praying for the sick is righteous, but no person in the current age can raise the dead or grow a missing limb.
It was a good conversation overall. I gotta disagree with you on the last bit Joel though. Remnant Radio often enables the wolves, and I don't think we can compromise. I don't believe people are writing off Remnant Radio without good cause, especially for the fact that they often justify unbiblical practices. It seemed a bit overly generous to claim that dispensationalists are responsible for writing them off. I get that they're your friends, but if you're not bringing rebuke to some of the things they're advocating for you are in the wrong. This is one thing that I think a lot of charismatics are responsible of doing, which is compromising with extreme charesmatics on the fact that they believe certain similar things. You're doing the same thing as a post millenial, compromising on account of agreeing with them on certain points. Just a critique. Everything else was really good, I do agree that continuationism is a secondary issue. However when it comes to using adivination type guessing in the church that's a no-no.
"It seemed a bit overly generous to claim that dispensationalists are responsible for writing them off" I think you'll find this kind of immature, ridiculous comments common from Joel.
This is where the Remnant guys always lose me. They lay out arguments that are worth hearing and considering, but then it functionally manifests as stage-magic from their pulpits. If Ms. 9/17 with back pain had just obeyed James 5 and approached the elders for healing, why would she have needed her magic number called out from the stage?
I am commanded to obey God. If He says jump, I am to jump. Now, when someone "prophecies" am I supposed to obey? How can I know it's from God? Does God speak out of both sides of His mouth?
Great discussion. I appreciate both sides of the Argument. I am not a Cessationist but appreciate their views on Scripture, Apostles. My fence that i can't seem to get over is the instruction by Paul to eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. But i continue to listen to folks from the reformed side as i believe much of what they teach. The five Solas, the more Calvinistic side of faith.
Saying that scripture coexisted with the Apostolic age is a bit historically illiterate. The letters were written at that time, but they weren't published and codified until centuries later, when the Catholic Church codified the Bible. Silly argument.
They will know we are Christians by our love. I believe that all four of these men are my brothers and it fills my heart my heart to see them treat each other that way in a public forum like this. Truly wish it happened more often.
The instruction in 1 Corinthians 14 also suggests that a person should be cautious in speaking for God if the revelation is extra-biblical. Bearing a “message from God” does not automatically place one in a position of authority. The potential prophet should humbly submit his or her message to the leaders of the church for confirmation. Paul’s directive suggests that the gift of prophecy was already beginning to wane as an authoritative gift at the time 1 Corinthians was written. A preacher or pastor today fulfills a prophetic role to the extent that he proclaims and explains the written Word of God. However, pastors are never called “prophets” in the New Testament. The pastor can confidently say, “Thus saith the Lord,” if he follows it up with chapter and verse. Unfortunately, some pastors assume a prophetic mantle and make pronouncements that are not from God but from their own imaginations.
It was said most of us have had situations, a word from a friend, a circumstance, where is seems clear God was leading. For one, this does not presuppose the attesting gifts are for now. But, let me ask everyone, how many words from a friend, circumstances have you thought to be clearly from God, and time showed it wasn't?
Can anyone point to an example of new testament prophecy that was written down and inscripturated? Obviously Luke records a number of prophetic words in Acts, but is this not merely his work as an historian to record what was happening? Ie, where is the evidence that the first century church considered the gift of prophecy as being on par with Scripture?
I thought this was great, I appreciate you debating this. As a "cessationist", I have very few "continuationist" friends but this showed me a way to open up the discussion lovingly and assuredly ✝
Joel was bang on at the end there, about him disagreeing with cessationista attitude. "I dont think we win without the charismatics". Dang that's so good.
"it doesn't mean test the Bible" This man thinks the Bible was handed to us in leather bindings. If you don't test the bible, you don't come up with a canon.
Wasn’t the prophet Nathan incorrect when he told David to build the Temple? Weren’t the Christians who told Paul not to go back to Jerusalem incorrect by misinterpreting what God revealed to them was going to happen to him as a sign to not go to Jerusalem?
@@KMANelPADRINO For one, Nathan wasn't speaking prophecy when he permitted David to build the temple. That's not particularly difficult to sort out. For two, a prophet is able to say an incorrect statement. What they can NOTTT do is say, "thus says the Lord..." and then be wrong. Those who hear it can misinterpreted to their own detriment but his prophecy cannot be even a LITTLE bit wrong. You know what was prescribed if you got it even a LITTLE wrong on the old testament? Capital punishment. It's a serious thing. You cannot "speak" on behalf of God and then say, "whoops my antenna was a little crooked, welp 🤷"
@@sawyeranderson1394 Nathan was totally prophesying, which is speaking in God’s stead. He literally said “Yahweh is with you.” That’s why Yahweh sent him back to correct his error. You’re doing special pleading and ignoring the text. Also you’re wrong about the Torah. You should either read a better translation or read the Hebrew or Jewish Greek texts (both of which I can do, so I’ll help you out here): Behold the mistranslation of Deuteronomy 18:20 which is rendered incorrectly (even in the ESV) 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, “or” who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’
20 אַךְ הַנָּבִיא אֲשֶׁר יָזִיד לְדַבֵּר דָּבָר בִּשְׁמִי אֵת אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־צִוִּיתִיו לְדַבֵּר וַאֲשֶׁר יְדַבֵּר בְּשֵׁם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וּמֵת הַנָּבִיא הַהֽוּא׃ 18:20 πλὴν ὁ προφήτης ὃς ἂν ἀσεβήσῃ λαλῆσαι ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματί μου ῥῆμα ὃ οὐ προσέταξα λαλῆσαι καὶ ὃς ἂν λαλήσῃ ἐπ᾽ ὀνόματι θεῶν ἑτέρων ἀποθανεῖται ὁ προφήτης ἐκεῖνος As you can see in both the Hebrew and the Jewish Greek, God doesn’t say “or” when referring to someone who is an idolater and who gets prophecy wrong, but “and.” So the person has to be incorrect “and” be an idolater in order to be executed. Further evidence is the reiteration found in 18:22 for the prophet who does worship God but merely gets something wrong. He isn’t to be executed. He just doesn’t require being listened to, so people shouldn’t fear his incorrect message.
@@sawyeranderson1394 Also, “this says the Lord” is just one statement possible for a prophet to say. It totally isn’t necessary when the *action* the prophet is doing in speaking at all is claiming to represent God’s will. For example, when Anna and Simeon prophesied about infant Jesus, you would say those weren’t prophecies? Come now, don’t be obstinate. Also, God can even use pagan priests to prophesy (cue the Zoroastrian Magi we just celebrated, and are due to celebrate again in about two days). The point is that God is not tame. He is true. But people are fallible. And their failings are even, at times, recorded for us. And God gives us His Law with which to discern His message (as Deuteronomy 18:21-22 clearly declares and teaches).
@@KMANelPADRINO I wasn't making the point that one must say, "thus say-ith the Lord" in order to be prophesying. I was using that phrase as reference, or in place of, the term prophecy. I'm not obstinate, I'm sarcastic 🤌 And to your point, do you question whether the prophecies in the Bible might have been messed up? After all they were delivered by fallible beings, they might have forgotten some of it or accidentally added something to it, right? Er no? Why can prophets all the sudden mess up now?
Its intersting that on a debate about the gifts they go straight to prophecy. Surely, the overarching question is are the gifts for today and THEN you look at how they are to be done. A lot of cessationist objections seem to revolve around how they are done more than if they are for today.
Having witnessed the madness of Charismania churches I looked upon all these so called gifts as fake. After many years of seeking God studiously I attended an elderly, scholarly, biblical church just passing through a small country village. An elderly lady hit up at the end and said she had a word… I had told the last next to me by chance upon entry about a certain condition, she sat next to me For The whole service. When the lady spoke, she turned to me… that’s you! It was! I reluctantly went to the front. After prayer something very strange occurred! I will never doubt God can act in these ways again. Nothing has ever happened since that day 20 years ago, but I will not doubt He can move in the gifts today. No drama, no hype, no clapping or dancing, just elderly faithful church folk.
This was a pretty poor showing on their (the two young pastors) part. It sounds like every single charismatic/pentecostal church out there. I am surprised to hear the examples (presumably the best ones) they put forth. Calling out numbers and medical conditions in a room full of people is a gimmick older than everyone in that room. They spoke of a 'foot condition' that was revealed - was it healed or just identified? What was it and what evidence is there of this claim? They said the 'back condition' was healed without saying what it was. Did a medical doctor verify either of those? What happens when the "prophet" guesses wrong and the numbers don't mean anything to anyone in the room? Are the 'prophecies' declared false or is the prophet? Is the "gift" diminished,the prophet left with egg on his face and the faith of people shattered? I think the perceived benefit from their perspective is having 'insider knowledge' regarding day to day life - something everyone would like to have. Does God tell them which stocks to invest in and when to sell? Does He reveal winning Lotto numbers to them? Does He whisper answers to them when they take exams? The question about Covid was on point- nobody called that one. I saw these guys somewhere before- maybe F4F.
Well, do your questions actually deal with what the discussion is about? For instance, prophets hear when God speaks to them by signs, riddles, visions, and dreams (peep Numbers 12). Your question on whether God reveals to them things like lottery numbers or anything at all is by nature a question to ask God and not any prophet. You could just as easily ask Samuel that had you lived at his time- or even asked him why he couldn’t predict the corruption of his own sons. Also, I will say that there are true prophets who get things wrong in the Bible. Nathan was wrong that David was to build the Temple and God sent him back to David to correct that. In Acts 21:4 several Christians were warned by God what awaited Paul in Jerusalem and they interpreted that true word incorrectly, saying that Paul wasn’t to go up to Jerusalem. But that was incorrect. Finally, in Deuteronomy 18:20, the conjunction there for the person leading people into idolatry and the person getting things wrong is *and* and not *or* in the Hebrew text. It’s a mistranslation to give it as *or.* So then, it is only a prophet who is idolatrous who also got things wrong who was to be put to death, meaning that true prophets could get the riddles or signs that God sent them incorrect. In fact, the Scripture speaks of some prophets who had perfect track records explicitly, like how “not one word from Samuel fell to the ground.” That wouldn’t be said if it was generally assumed that true prophets always got things correctly interpreted, nor would there be the above examples from Nathan and the companions of Paul.
@@solideomusical But Samuel was unique in one way among the other prophets. According to 1 Samuel 3:19, Samuel grew so intimately with God and having learned the valuable lesson of not presuming God’s voice to speak (see the actual story that this verse concludes), that Samuel actually didn’t get any of his predictions wrong. This isn’t to say that Samuel himself was infallible, see the inside look we got from God’s leading Samuel along like a child to anoint a new king in the place of Saul and how Samuel was totally clueless and only had crumbs of details to go off of, and how Samuel himself was biased towards David’s older brothers (who as recorded in Scripture were righteous men themselves). God just isn’t as tame as your theology warrants, is all.
Thank you for this video! I am reformed in my beliefs and a continuist. Most of my friends are cessationists and this video really gave me a lot of confidence in my beliefs and what the Bible teaches! Love Doug Wilson! Appreciate Remnant Radio. Thankful for this conversation.
You are not alone. I'm a continuist myself. Scripture have clearly shown that 9 gifts of the Spirit are operative today as it was in the beginning. One thing as continuist we should hold fast to the sovereignty of God.
Here’s my opinion… nobody should be called pastor… it’s unbiblical and puts the pastor in the wrong light. You might as well be called “Father” like in the Roman Catholic cult.
Sounds new age. We often forget that Satan masquerades as an angel of light so we must be careful and not so quick to ask for a "word from God". In fact, if we are so eager to "hear a word" or "see a sign" then the easier it is to be deceived because our defenses will be down. For example, if we are desperate to see an angel then we would believe whatever it says if one were to appear. Now look at what Paul says: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8, ESV).
Agreed. The only initials and numbers spoken in worship should be an abbreviation of a Biblical Book and its chapter & verse(s). And of course the hymn number.
A lot of church fraudsters have actually been exposed on how they do this. Some would use information from their target's relatives, or from their social media accounts, or from prayer requests that they have submitted. It's a very easy trick and it's crazy how easily convinced they are of this.
I really appreciate this graceful conversation. Everything that proceeds from our mouths as with our thoughts needs to be brought into captivity and subject to the authority of Christ in conjunction with the mindfulness that we will be held accountable with stricter judgement for leading someone astray, intentional or not...regardless if we hold the office of teacher or not. The same goes for prophesy and evangelism. I'm a Cessationalist/Calvinist/Baptist/Charismatic in the sense that I believe the authoritative offices of Apostles and Prophets have ceased but the supernatural manifestations gifted by the Holy Spirit are still very much needed today as they were the day the Church was born on Pentecost, especially those of wisdom and discernment. I don't attend a Charismatic Church because it's been my experience that Christians tend to fall into one of two camps: those who are over obsessed with supernatural experiences and those who are uncomfortable with even talking about the possibility. I prefer to hang with those who prefer sound Gospel doctrine over thrilling experiences, not that I haven't had my fair share of the latter. I wish both camps could have more of these discussions with each other.
I am a *Particular Baptist* (reformed like Charles Spurgeon). I believe that term might describe your denomination also. My church is a member of *FIRE (the Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals)*
@@ronlanter6906 I really like FIRE's doctrinal statements. Our Church isn't strictly baptist but is conservative, evangelical reformed and part of a global network of small churches called the Great Commission Collective. There, the sign gifts are not to be overtly expressed at any of our meetings due to the greater charismatic movement's emphasis of them as evidence of a believer over the evidence of the Holy Spirit's work of producing a Holy life in the believer. I might pray in tongues privately out of earshot of those who don't understand what I'm speaking...after all, the purpose of communication is to be understood by the listener and collective prayer is communication.
47:38 where Joel is speaking about how every pastoral issue can be addressed by scripture. No special extra biblical revelation needed. This statement made me realize that believing God gives us special revelation today (& I believe the RR guys would say it would align with the Bible) is actually laziness. I’m in Ezekiel right now and God is speaking to Israel through Ezekiel. The principles there are so applicable to modern day situations though. If we actually read our Bibles (from beginning to end), we’d have so much wisdom that is applicable to EVERY area of life. Every situation. However Christians today are sooooo lazy. We’d prefer that God speaks to us about how to handle X situation rather than to be continually saturated in scripture. Read your Bibles, read it often and go to a good church. Ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom and guidance and see how you have what you need for every life circumstance. Stop being lazy and expecting God to download easy answers for you.
I agree. The charismatic movement has created many who chase divine experiences, emotional highs, and signs, and as a result I notice that many are biblically illiterate and can barely explain the gospel if not at all. I'm not saying this about everyone but it seems to be the general trend.
Okay I am sorry but doesn't God know things that we do not know and cannot know? For example, I can desire to buy a house, have money for it and all the boxes checked....but what if it's not God's will for me at that time? Or what if there are two houses I am choosing from and don't know which to pick? I can apply biblical principles for sure, but then what if all that lines up? I pray and seek God. Because God knows all things past, present and future. And I have God lead me on which house to purchase. The same could be said of any number of decisions, but often people leave God out of the equation because "God doesn't speak anymore because we have the completed canon"
@@BEABEREAN10cessationists pray for wisdom and guidance in these situations as well. We just don’t expect an audible voice to speak to us and tell us “buy the house on 6th Street” In those situations I pray that it would be made clear which house/job etc is best for us.
@@sarahd5341 I don't expect and audible voice either. MOST charismatics aren't looking for that. I am looking for the leading of the Spirit on the inside because God said he gave us his Spirit to lead us into all truth. Just like the Spirit forbade the apostles from going into Asia, the Spirit can lead and guide us as well in our life.
16:25 in the video, Josh says the word is -sufficient to save us -reveal the knowledge of Jesus (kinda just a repetition of point #1) -give normative practice in conduct in life and the church (ESV) 2 Timothy 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. it equips us for EVERY good work, what is sounds like is they are getting revelation for some good works that Scripture is not sufficient for... 🤔 "that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." is it sufficient or not? or is there need for extrabiblical revelation regarding a certain good work?
That's sort of like saying that because I have scripture, I don't need anything else. I don't need a hug, encouragement, friends, guidance and wisdom from counselors, therapy, nothing. But we do need these things, and it doesn't mean scripture is inadequate or impotent. The Lord gave us scripture and the body to minister to us through both practical gifts and gifts of the Spirit.
@@RCGWho for all matters of the FAITH, Scripture is sufficient exhortation, encouragement, consolation is from the Bible teaching is from the Bible and we are talking about revelation from God which is what they are claiming 2 Timothy 3:14-17 read it
@@RCGWho what does God still need to tell the church that He hasn't told us in Scripture? that means the Scriptures aren't sufficient for equipping us for every good work and a massive part of the church is not privy to this revelation from God...
@@tomtemple69 wouldn't it be awesome if our omniscient God told us things that we didn't know naturally? Like what house to buy, car, maybe something about our health, maybe revealing the heart intentions of sinners to bring them to repentance (we see that multiple times in scripture). These are things that aren't written in the scriptures nor could they be for everyone personally as they differ, but are very helpful to our edification. Not to mention, the Bible says it contains all we need, and part of that containment is the instructions regarding prophecy. It's just so weird to me that we claim we don't need something the bible says is there for our benefit
@@BEABEREAN10 " Like what house to buy, car, maybe something about our health, maybe revealing the heart intentions of sinners to bring them to repentance (we see that multiple times in scripture)." whos says we need God to tell us that? the Bible isn't enough to bring someone to repentance? have you ever heard of the term "Christian liberty" and "biblical principles" God is not your magic 8 ball
I was a closet Pentecostal going to an orthodox Presbyterian church for 27 years. Great place to be grounded and serve the body. But the Spirit led me to an AOG church (imperfect but asking of God). I have grown in Spiritual gifts of knowledge and prophecy. Not a lot or all the time, but it happens. Also, praying in the spirit, solo on tongues is a blessing for the Spirit lead church that allows Him to guide prayer. So my reply to the question, What has happened to convince ?, is that the workings of the gifts show God’s authorative power and builds the faith of the believer to trust God to move and not to trust our own power and wisdom by over stepping via theology alone. God wants faith and action.
They stated eph 2:20 proves prophets and apostles were the foundation. We do not lay a foundation over and over. If the gifts are normative for today, can you record yourself doing any of them? That way the debate can be over.
@@ShepherdMinistryyour argument is flawed. Apollos and Barnabas are just a few examples of many apostles and prophets recorded in the Bible who don't have a single verse attributed to them as part of Scripture. Being an apostle or prophet doesn't mean that God's inspired word is expected to be part of Scripture.
A Cessationist can be found in the Old Testament. They are the 10 spies returning from the Promise Land. Their thinking is the exact same - God may have done miracles back there in Egypt but He won't do any miracles in the Promise Land. God wasnt pleased with their unbelief.
Doug Wilson is a beast! Simple clear precise line of questioning only to be explained away and deflected. They (continuationist) could have just given a simple no at times. I like Remnant Radio, they have several good interviews, they are a great resource for the church. Typically, for me this argument comes down to defining words that get painted with broad brush strokes which most cessationists reign that in pretty well.
At 11:40 - You don't need a "lower case apostle." That is just called an evangelist. That's why Paul, who was an apostle, referenced Timothy, who also was a church planter, to "do the work of an evangelists, making full proof your your ministry." (2nd Tim 4:5). I don't know why 1000 scholars can't figure this out. There are five leadership giftings in the body of Christ, apart from other spiritual and practical giftings. -Apostles were established by Christ to "bind and loose," meaning to establish the doctrine of the NT (Mt. 16:19, 18:18). There were 83 of them in total, modeled after Moses, the 12 heads of Israel's armies, and the 70 elders, who prophesied with Moses. Judas was killed. Matthias replaced Judas. Paul replaced Matthias. -Prophets were given to the church to exhort, encourage, and warn the body of Christ accprding to the Apostolic message. These were not limited to the 12 and 70, as is plain by Phillips daughters, the prophets of Corinth, the prophets of Antioch, etc. Nor is there any evidence that these gifts cease until Christ returns, at which time, prophecy will be punishable by death. (See Dan 9:24, Zech 13, 1st Cor 13:9-12, Eph 4:1-13). -Pastors lead and exhort local bodies according to the apostolic teaching, conducing church discipline when necesssary. -Teachers teach the body of Christ, either locally, or itinerantly, deeping everyone's knoweldge of the apostolic teaching, and its roots in the OT. -Evangelists herald the gospel in new places, planting church, and carrying out initial discipleship, until these churches mature to the point of having thier own elders. Thats why Timothy, the evangelists, was given instructions on selecting elders for the church at Ephesus, whcih he helped plant, as was Titus in Crete. None of this is hard, unless you confuse it by Preterism, Post-Millennialism, and appeals to Christendom as a real thing, distroting the necessary passages that logically distinguish the ordained authoritative offices of the Church. We call evangelists "missionaries" now, or "church planters," and we've pretty much eradicated the office of teacher, which is why everyone in the body of Christ is so ignorant now, allowing creeps like Doug Wilson and fools like Joel Webbon to get airtime.
What I love about this video is the vibe of “I can disagree with you and still love you at the same time.”
Amen. BODY Life .
It was ridiculous to see my own Brothers searching for "common ground" (i wonder if We can find it here; not so much, well how bout here, lol-) Knowing We are United In CHRIST. GOD Bless n Keep Ya, Brandon
Trinity, Resurection, Omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent. After that not much else matters. In fact it probably makes the Church stronger.
Yes, so good!
Should be firm and rebuke what do you mean all be friendly chill and get on
Not when it's against the word of truth.
No compromise
Likewise 💜
Great conversation. When brothers discuss areas of agreement and disagreement in a charitable way it is not only informing but edifying.
If tongues and prophecy are “sign gifts” exclusively for the use of confirming apostles then why does Paul instruct the corinthian believers (not apostles) on how to use those gifts?
I appreciate you and your ministry, as a charismatic, hearing you, as a cessationist, say “I don’t think we win without the charismatics” was very humbling. God bless you
I appreciated that too until he insulted his guests by saying he would like to think they’re not really really crazy too. Unfortunately Joel comes across as rude, arrogant, and prideful, which is sadly the way many reformed Christians come across. And I say this as a reformed Christian of a very conservative Presbyterian perspective. Doug Wilson, on the other hand, seemed humble and gracious.
@@barnhouseexplosion3020 I agree, that’s something he needs to work on. But out of all the reformed cessationists who have ministries on Social Media, he definitely came across as much more charitable than any of the John MacArthur tribe.
@@christophercook1978kind of like Chris Rosebrough. The way he trash talks and condemns Josh and Michael is inexcusable to me
@@barnhouseexplosion3020 Is that really how they come across? Or you just like to make yourself think so because of their confidence?
If I survey my experience watching Christians across many social media channels and the pits of comment boxes everywhere, it's not the reformed going around attacking everyone else, but they are constantly under attack and insulted BY other just like you did here. Because they boldly proclaim truth that they are supremely confident in, they get labeled "arrogant, prideful" which is perhaps unwarranted. We live in a culture where the only people (apparently) who are allowed to display the most confidence in their personal opinions about things are either global warming alarmists and trans kids. Everybody else is supposed to act like nothing they say is really likely to be true at all.
Labeling others arrogant simply because they believe what they say unapologetically is just a rhetorical device and isn't what arrogant means.
Joel is not even close to being wrong by mentioning "crazy charismatics", because they ARE crazy. These are the very Christians that embarras the entire church with their out of control thematics and screaming and jumping about yelling jibberish. They are the ones demanding buckets of cash to hand out blessings and gifts, and turning "church service" into an unhinged madhouse.
When most people think of "charasmatic" they don't immediately have a vision of a humble person pleading with God for a healing for a person in need. They think of some wild TV nut jumping around bopping people on the head with a bible and shouting FIRE! as they fall to the ground flailing around. They think of demon hunters casting out demons of allergies and whatever else. You don't tend to think of charismatics as calm pleasant people, just like you don't think of reformed as humble.
If we want to cross these divides, we have to start understanding each other. Reformed or cessasionists aren't all doctrine-centered bible thumpers who think God is dead and doesn't work in his church any more, and charasmatics aren't all unhinged loonies.
@@barnhouseexplosion3020I'm pretty sure we can take that as dudes who know and love each other, giving each other a hard time. This is the way men in close relationship speak to each other. He stated at the beginning that they're friends and they know one another. They all took playful shots at one another the entire time. We can be too sensitive
As a cessationist, I sometime am told by my continuationist friends that my beliefs limit God.
My position isn’t to limit God, it is to define what is “normative” in Christian life, and what is not.
Cessationists whole heartedly agree that God may do whatever he pleases. Man cannot do whatever he pleases.
Normative is supposed to be the book of Acts.
@@RCGWhoif that’s true then why aren’t we seeing the true church being added to in thousands and people speaking real foreign languages. Handkerchiefs being sent out and people being healed, the lame being raised up at the word of God, people being raised from the dead, real words of God being given, people walking out of prisons as angels open the doors, new words of God being added to the Bible?
@danielwarton5343 New words of God being added to the Bible? I wasn't advocating for that, but much of what you listed does take place, just not all on the same day to the same person. My understanding of personal prophecy is that its purpose is the encouragement, edification, and comfort of the person being ministered to. It also may contain words of knowledge including personal information not known to the prophet. I do believe a lot of why we don't see more of this and genuine and signs and wonders is unbelief, so we don't ask and we don't receive anything. As for the "real foreign languages", I have 2 replies. First, I have heard testimonies over the years of people hearing their actual native tongue being spoken by other believers. The second is that there are 2 different passages about tongues. In one passage in Acts that you are referencing that happened. In another passage, the tongue, or what some call their "prayer language", the tongue is known only to God. (1 Corinthians 14:2) I believe this distinction is between a personal, intimate tongue and the gift of a tongue with interpretation . Some of the daily prophets on yt who just seem to be arms of the republican party I find bizarre and wouldn't recommend them to anybody.
@danielwarton5343 Furthermore. Lol You and I cannot know all the testimonies of what is currently going on worldwide. If we only knew all that God is doing just today, you could fill books. Also, if per chance you are fellowshipping only with people of the DTS persuasion, you either won't be hearing them or you'd be dissing them. It's almost like sharing testimonies with an atheist. They will have an explanation for every miracle. Most Christians function like practical atheists. It's weird because so many are Calvinists and think God is sovereign in all things, but not in miracles. I'm rambling. That's my take.
@@RCGWho whilst trying to make a decision on whether the continuationist position was right, i asked God to guide me. I expected to be guided to a church that was charismatic. Instead i was guided to the teaching of a pastor based in Houston, who was taught by Lewis Sperry Chafer. Remakable, as i am english and have never been to the US. No internet 40 years ago.
The body of Christ is edified by respectful conversations like this. These are deep, profound, and important topics, and we all benefit by respectful conversations like this. Too many times such discussions devolve into shouting matches, and pompous arrogance on the part of the participants. I hope you continue to do more discussions like this around areas of disagreement among sincere, genuine bible believers. I was blessed by this video.
Still one is right and the other is wrong . Cessationists are still trying
@@FrankinSmiththeology I have not stated my position on the topic. Also, I would not be so presumptuous as to assume I have come down perfectly on every one of the finer points of doctrine, though I have studied the Bible daily for the last 30 years. I am still trying to understand it more perfectly, and I find civil discourse more edifying than angry debate and name calling.
@@paulmcwhorter Who called someone a name?
@@paulmcwhorter Once you figure out that calvanism has come to pervert the Gospel then you will realize it's a work of satan and use the Authority of God against it
@@FrankinSmiththeology Certainly not you. I am referring to how discussions like the one in this video typically go. Accusing the other side of not being saved and such. There are profoundly deep questions associated with rightly dividing the word of God, and the issue of cessationism is one of them.
Remnant radio cannot affirm that the prophets they have can speak infalliby, or their whole system falls and they have no prophets.
This video really set the standard for what all discussion/debates should look like. Too often, the remnant guys are treated as heretics. However, that is not the case. Bravo guys!
52:52 “why the code?”
Because it increases the chance of the “prophecy” coming “true”. Casts a broad net and congregants desperate for “healing” will make whatever code work for them.
Satan/demons can also make a person ill/hurt and then remove the illness/hurt upon fake healing.
This part of the discussion was painful. God never ever worked this way in scripture.
Moses: “I’m looking for someone with a relative named Susan and to whom the number 5 means something” 🫠
Amen!!! This is a form of cold reading!
As a former charismatic and now a cessationist. I totally agree with I don’t feel like I’m missing out on anything regarding the sign gifts. Most of the time I just tend to shake my head at what I use to believe.
Apparently you've never heard a word of knowlwedge or a dream that came true. I have heard quite a few from others (which I witnessed) plus words of knowledge/dreams I had myself--that came to pass. It's impossible to deny once you witness that. Most of them were ones I had. And my healings (2 of them) were from words of knowledge from another person.
@@ReLair88u have more chances with a soothsayer then men with “words of knowledge “ which modern prophets even predict marriages and finances that don’t come to pass most times .
@@ReLair88 what were you healed from?
@@lewislibre I was healed twice due to words of knowledge followed by prayer. The one above was high blood pressure which I had been on medication for over a year, which is exactly what the person told me int he word. He also said, the dr. made you increase your medication dosage this past week because your BP was higher--and you were mad. That was exactly right. I went off the meds and my blood pressure was normal from then on. I went to the nurse at IBM, where I worked, several times a week to have it checked for a few weeks and it was always normal. And also was normal at dr appts. The other one was nine years later--I had right hip pain to the point I couldn't stand or walk for very long. The person said it was right hip pain, a woman, and how long I'd had it. It was gone instantly after three people prayed for me for about 2-3 minutes. I felt it go. And it has never once hurt me since then.
@saintvanguard Doug never said he doesn’t believe in healing. I think you need to learn what cessationist actually means
I found most of Doug's concerns about prophecy to be confused. Paul says tongues+interpretation is equivalent to prophecy (1 Cor 14:5), and the only example we're given of that is on the Day of Pentecost when the Apostles' speaking in tongues was interpreted by the native speakers who heard them. The Apostles weren't creating Scripture. They weren't predicting the future. They were -- according to those who heard and interpreted them -- "declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues." Likewise in the Corinthian church where everyone was speaking in a tongue at once, they weren't crowd-sourcing Scripture sans interpretation. Neither were the two or three tongues and prophecies allowed by Paul's corrected order of worship meant to create Scripture. Where is the textual criticism that identifies evidence of the New Testament's patchwork compilation from what would have been thousands of individuals scattered across the Roman world? How were all those by-products of the gift of prophecy gathered in one place to create the finished canon? Did Peter, Paul, Mark, Luke, John and Jude cut-and-paste without giving due credit?
Frankly, if the Scripture does not say the gifts have ceased (and my reading explicitly says they continue), then there's no reason to believe cessationists would not have expressed the same concerns and objections in A.D.54, when 1 Corinthians was written, that they express today.
I don’t see any of these “prophets” raising people from the dead.
Andrew Womack and many in Africa have.
@@johnangelformby106I hope this is a joke.
@@johnangelformby106😂😂😂 you don’t buy his story right??
@@johnangelformby106
I have personally seen a man raised from the dead in my home church in Christiansburg VA on a Sunday morning in 2003.. God chose to hear and answer - all Glory to Him. This is not a charismatic, or Pentecostal church.
Prophecy must first be defined, before it can be defended.
Being able to say something that will come true in the future
@@nerychristian Pretty simple!
The Remnant guys did ok. They still didn't convince me of their view. I also can't get past the fact that they support the nut jobs of the Charismatic movement.
I'm not saying you're wrong at all, because there certainly are wicked pretenders everywhere, but based on the early church's experience in Acts 2, in which everyone appeared to be drunk, I think we need to come up with a more effective metric than "they look nutty," especially since apparent foolishness (spitting in mud, circling Jericho, striking a rock) seems to be God's M.O. for activating our childlike faith and obedience while cutting through our respectability conceits.
@@thecrypt5823 well Josh said he gave prophecy that was almost completely accurate. In the Bible it's always 100% accurate and the prophets don't run around doing victory laps.
All these modern "prophets" are nothing but charlatans.
@@thecrypt5823the early church in acts 2 were speaking in foreign languages that people didn’t all understand. I think they called them drunk because they seemed to be babbling to those who didn’t know the other languages.
Nut jobs would be people like KennethCopeland and Todd White etc.
One of the guys has female pastors on staff
@ShepherdMinistry yea, I'm not a fan of Remnant Radio.
Bro really said "Paul and Matthias are half-cheeking it on the throne in Heaven" @9:43 😂😂😂
i heard the same thing haha
😂
I find it odd at minute 51:33 there about Mr Rowntree describes prophetic word, with a vague letters and / or numbers voiced out to the group gathered. Flip over to clips of Char or Jonathan Edwards and these ‘mediums’ or mediums are speaking the exact same language. When I open my bible I see nothing that looks even vaguely like Mr Rowntrees description
Joel, you keep doing a great job of having guys talk with eachother.
Stop it now, or the Church is going to mature, and we’re going to see more of that postmillenial maturity hope thing you keep going on about!
Happy New Year brother. Thank you for the labor here! Praise the Lord for all of you!
😂
😂
@@TheRemnantRadio you see that Remnant Radio. Some people actually view me as a reasonable person. 😂
More of these videos will wake people up to the falseness of cessation
Lord willing it'll help people realize the falseness of people over-emphasizing distinctions in a way that's not steel manning opponents, and tearing apart the Body when we could be working together to bring the Gospel to the nations- even while having real disagreements.
The woman with the issue of blood wasn't an Apostle. Yet her faith in Christ healed her. Christ said that these signs will likewise follow all who believe in Him. Including us. Blessings. 😊
wow, what these guys described that goes on in their church is sorcery and fortune telling, not prophecy
One great suggestion- God Doesn’t Whisper by Jim Osman
@@galaxyguy7579Like the person said, you need to watch "God Doesn't Whisper".
@@galaxyguy7579 Have you heard the difference between descriptive/narrative and prescriptive application of scripture?
@@galaxyguy7579 Where exactly do you see “whisper” in that Scripture you quoted?? God spoke to Elijah. There was no “whispering” involved.
@@galaxyguy7579 “Gentle blowing”, “still small voice”, doesn’t say “whisper”.
@@galaxyguy7579 And v 13b clearly says “And a voice came to him and said…” Again, no whispering. If and when God wants to speak, He doesn’t whisper.
Im sorry but saying someone with the initials JS with shoulder problem would literally by law of averages encompass a huge number of people. The miracles performed by the apostles and their associates were such that there was no other explanation than that it was a divine occurrence.
Douglas Wilson is a national treasure. I'm only sorry I discovered him so late in life. He has a wonderful "gift" of bringing out the best in people. Praise God! Thank you Pastor Joel for another informative and insightful show.
You need to get out more
@@christianuniversalistrun along again
@@christianuniversalistmaybe change your username to universalist. That would be accurate. What you have it as now is not
By what biblical warrant does anyone have the authority to decide which gifts ceased and which didn't when the Bible makes no such claim that any will?
That was an awesome surprise to see this debate come up on my feed. I've listened to all involved to various levels and respect all. I really enjoyed the subject and the tone of the debate. I'm on the reformed side of things, but somewhat uneasy with hard cessation doctrine as I have seen and read and experienced too much. I was pleasantly surprised at Joel and Doug's openness and experiences. I am very wary of charismatics that overemphasize gifts of the spirit. These movements become, from my perspective, subject to false prophets and charletons. On the flip side reformed churches can be dead to the power of God, to just as great a detriment. Anyway, I was very blessed by this and I think others will be too.
Amen, well said. This was a great conversation.
Like most doctrines*
Totally agree with you
An observation from a continuationist: if a word is spoken in tongues, it must be interpreted to edify the body. If it not going to be interpreted, then it is between the believer in God. Either way, no one, including the one speaking in tongues, knows what they are saying, so what it sounds like doesn't matter. We can call it gibberish. We can call it an angelic language or language of heaven. We can call it a human language. None of that matters. It's either interpreted or kept to ourselves. So what it sounds like doesn't mean anything.
Doug asked some very, very good questions.
Yes, and the responses were just terrible. Why can't these guys stay focused on answering the questions directly? Every single response was evasive and misdirected.
@@CharlieJulietSierrafrom your side of the fence
I'm with Rosebrough. So dangerous saying "God told me ...."
People say it so lightly not realising they are putting words into God's mouth just as the false prophets God talks about in Scripture do.
Have you ever prayed and asked God if you should take a certain job or move your family to be missionaries etc. Do you believe God actually responds to your prayers and answers them or not? If He does answer them, then in what sense is it wrong to say "I believe God told me to take this job" or "I believe God is calling us to the mission feel". We can get into semantics but at the end of the day, it's still God speaking to us, no?
If God can respond to our prayers and speak to us, why is it so outlandish a claim to say that God could speak to me for someone else? We're called to test and weigh everything, of course.
I see you're a pastor, which means you likely preach. Do you have perfect theology? If not, should we say teaching is dangerous because you may speak authoritatively on God's written word and be incorrect as you speak on His behalf?
@@TKK0812I feel like you are arguing a point he’s not making in this comment thread
@@Izthefaithful The OP said it's dangerous to say "God told me". I responded to that. In what way am I responding to something the OP wasn't saying?
@@TKK0812 Lo siento mi amigo
Confusión maybe 🤷♀️
16:40 Doug's question is a nail in the coffin. The remnant guy answers with massive coping as to why there can be errors in "prophecy". There's a reason they can't have 100% accuracy standard, and it's because all those who claim to be prophets are bold face liars.
@@galaxyguy7579 His answer was literally "well sometimes Scripture is hard to understand" wth does that have to do with anything 😂 apples to oranges. Scripture has a clear test for those who claim to be prophets, and there is no room for error.
@@gianthebaptistGreat comment. There is no wiggle room for error. If you could still stone people for false prophecies in the name of God, I am sure many would stop trying to act like prophets.
@@galaxyguy7579which prophet in scripture misunderstood the prophecy given to them?
@@galaxyguy7579 stop worshipping Scripture, thats idolatry
All? "All those who claim to be prophets are bold faced liars?"
I agree that everyone needs to be more careful regarding what they say, especially when making accusations about people they've most likely never met. The world is a big place and God is still working in the deepest, darkest parts of it. To claim He has no prophets working, healing and teaching where no one else dare tread is a mighty big assertion.
I agree there are those who seek attention, glory and respect, especially in the west. If a real prophet were to walk on our streets, he certainly wouldn't want the position because he'd be an outcast and wouldn't be accepted within the greater body of Christ because as Biblical history teaches us, prophets are always rejected, persecuted, slandered and most likely killed for what comes out of their mouths.
Reformed - 1
Charismatics - 0
Closed Canon and ongoing prophecy work when the word canon is understood as it is defined in dictionary: a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged. So the closed Canon of Scripture is the criterion by which everything else, including revelation, is to be judged.
I am an ardent fan of Doug, and I am reformed but the scriptural basis for spiritual gifts is hands down on the continuationist's side. I was actually shocked about how gracious this conversation was considering the divisiveness the new G3 movie has stirred up. This is causing havoc in our fellowship with true believers in our area. In fact--one of my very good friends felt like I needed to have an INTERVENTION because I simply believe what Paul wrote in Corinthians. I have yet to see any truly coherent BIBLICAL arguments that show me why I need to listen to man's theological gymnastics rather than holding fast to the actual words of God. I feel like the talking heads in this debate have been very reckless and very disingenuous and ungracious and have succeeded in scaring lots of believers and causing separation, suspicion and division from one another. It's heartbreaking, truly, so, thank you for a cordial discussion.
Also, to your last question-- i think you're missing out on obedience to the Lord by despising prophecy and negating the clear teaching of Scripture.
100% agree with this comment.
Here’s the biblical argument that convinced me of cessationism (I compiled several comments where I described my position elsewhere):
I believe the Bible says some (prophecies, tongues, knowledge) Spiritual gifts have ceased (1 Corinthians 13:8-12). They ceased when the perfect came.
Those verses give multiple illustrations of a “partial to complete” theme. The “perfect” is the whole and complete canon of scripture (I will argue for this later), allowing us to see face to face like a perfectly polished mirror. Now that the canon has closed and we are no longer adding new books to the Bible as some sort of expanded edition of God’s eternally perfect word, the gifts of prophecies, tongues, and knowledge have fulfilled their purpose and are no longer in effect today.
I will give some reasoning for why I think “the perfect” is in reference to the completed canon of scripture rather than the return of the morally perfect Christ Jesus:
The canon of scripture closed when the last book of the Bible was written by John (Revelation 1:1-2). Man does not declare what the canon of scripture shall be; rather God speaks and creates His canon which He has preserved through the ages since it was first given. I’ve heard some say the canon wasn’t complete until the Protestant reformation; this is false. Because nobody prior to the Protestant Reformation was waiting for God to give His final words to be included in the Bible, His canon had already been canonized well before the Protestant Reformation.
Now in 1 Corinthians, chapters 12-14 are dealing heavily with spiritual gifts. At the time of Paul’s writing, the Corinthians were absolutely called to earnestly desire those gifts (12:31, 14:1, 14:5), but even more still to love each other with unity in the same Spirit (12:4,13:1-13). And even more than speaking in tongues too, Paul says it is better for the church not to be infantile in their thinking but to instead be mature men through sharing interpretable prophecies given specifically for the sake of building up the church (14:19-20, 22, 3-5).
So, prophecies build up the church. Likewise, God’s canonized Word is given to make the church wise for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, and all scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching/reproof/correction/training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17). In relation to scripture equipping the man of God for every good work and “completing” him, it is helpful to finally consider “the perfect” referenced in 1 Corinthians 13:10.
The Greek used in 1 Corinthians 13:10 for the perfect is τέλειος/teleios. This word does not exclusively mean “morally perfect,” although it certainly can include a sense of moral perfection. But this word is often used elsewhere in scripture to reference perfection in terms of being finished, or fully grown, or adult, or mature, or lacking nothing in completeness. In fact, this same word is used in 1 Corinthians 14:20 telling them to be τέλειος/teleios, translated as to be “men”. It simply isn’t true when you assert that the “perfect” has no basis for being in reference to the canon of scripture. Paul says to be men (stop speaking/thinking/reasoning like a child 1 Corinthians 13:11) through the means of pursuing prophecies, which are given to the church for building up the church. This too is what scripture is for, but scripture is preserved whereas prophecies will cease (1 Corinthians 13:10). The prophecies allowed them to see themselves reflected dimly in somewhat-polished metal, but when the canon was completed they could see themselves as in a perfectly polished mirror (i.e. face to face). This aligns with how scripture “completes” the man of God and equips us for absolutely every single good work.
To offer a bit more elaboration on why I don’t think “face-to-face” is in reference to us looking at Christ’s face someday, I want to take “face-to-face” in 1 Corinthians 13:12 naturally and contextually. It is talking about seeing in a dim mirror and then, when the perfect comes, we will see face-to-face. Notice that it doesn’t start verse 12 by saying they saw in a “mirror,” but rather it says they saw in a “mirror dimly”. You have to consider that when Paul wrote this letter, they didn’t have mirrors like we have today in 2023. The mirrors in their time were made from polished metal, but those dim mirrors did not produce the seemingly perfect reflection we have today in our modern mirrors. So Paul is saying that, like a child someday finally becoming a man, or like polished metal finally becoming totally polished so that you can see “face-to-face” when you look at it, so too the “perfect” (completed; final state) canon of scripture will allow for the partial (prophecy) to pass away. Proverbs 27:19 also uses the concept of “seeing face-to-face” when talking about looking in still water. So, very often the phrase “face-to-face” isn’t meant to be taken literally where two different people are staring at each other, but rather it often means one person sees themselves clearly in a reflection. Being able to see yourself “face-to-face” held a bit more weight back then because they didn’t have modern mirrors or cameras to see themselves clearly all the time.
Objection: We won’t be morally perfect or complete/mature until we’re in heaven.
Response: You’re saying we won’t be perfect/complete/mature until we are in heaven with Christ and made as such. What then do you make of 2 Timothy 3:17 where it says that scripture (the Bible) is given to us (right here today) so that the men of God (us) may be “perfect” (complete), equipped for every good work? I mentioned 2 Timothy 3:17 recognizing that it is indeed a different underlying Greek word, but as I understand the verses we’re discussing, those words mean perfect in the same sense. That is, I don’t think either 2 Timothy 3:17 or 1 Corinthians 13:10 deal with “moral” perfection. Rather, my understanding is that both verses are speaking of perfection in terms of “completion”. I appreciate that you recognize how you would cede the argument if 2 Timothy 3:17 used Telios instead of Artios (and obviously I think your reasoning there would be sound haha), but if both words overlap in definitions of perfection/completeness, then it still seems like a reasonable interpretation to use back in 1 Corinthians 13. In addition to the reasons above, I also just don’t see how “moral” perfection fits the context of 1 Corinthians 13 when it seems more so to be emphasizing a partial-to-complete theme.
Objection: The canon can’t “know” us as described in 1 Corinthians 13:12.
Response: Your argument on “knowing as we are known” is part of what I’ll want to study a bit more when I have more time. On the surface it seems like a decent argument against my overall understanding of that passage, but I need more time to consider just how “personally” it should be taken. My (often-flawed-and-in-need-of-further-sanctification) intuition is uncomfortable saying things like “scripture is an object that doesn’t know us personally”. Hebrews 4:12 describes scripture in a way that seems quite personal to me, as it is God’s word, living and active, piercing, and even “discerning” the thoughts and intentions of the heart. But again, I’d like to study what you’re saying a bit more. Those are just some of the cuff thoughts. I don’t think I’m logically concluding that “the completed book made of paper and leather” know me and I stand face-to-face with it. There is a necessary distinction between our transcription of God’s Word and God’s Word itself. I am arguing that the perfect is “the canon” rather than “the written”. Really not trying to nitpick but I think it matters since you brought it up. It isn’t the paper and leather that knows us, nor is it the Bible app on my phone or Blue Letter Bible. But it is the word of God that is truly able to discern the thoughts and intentions of our hearts (Hebrews 4:12). If the word of God can do that discerning, it seems fair to me to think that it could also do the knowing of 1 Corinthians 13:12. I don’t understand why you doubled down on the assertion that the necessary logical conclusion for me would be that the perfect that knows me would be “the completed book made of paper and leather.” All I’m saying is that is not how I am defining the “canon of scripture” to which my whole argument refers. If every paper and leather book in the world were to burn tomorrow, my argument would be unaffected because that’s not what I think the canon of scripture is. I’m arguing for the “perfect” being the canon of scripture defined as “every jot and tittle of God’s word that has been intentionally preserved by God through man for all future generations.” Not every working of God has been intended to be preserved for all, but the Lord gives and the Lord takes. We have the canon God wants us to have, no matter what form we have it in (books, computers, memory, etc.).
Objection: “Face to face” refers to us seeing God.
Response: And regarding the face-to-face points, I don’t deny that the phrase does indeed mean “one person to another” sometimes. All I am pointing out is that it is Biblically permissible for the phrase “face-to-face” to be in reference to seeing oneself in a reflection. This is what is happening in Proverbs 27:19 if you look at the phrase in Hebrew.
@@hardboard82 you have it all there and when presented in this way it seems straightforward and easy to see that the continuationists are lead by wanting something that is not prescribed for us now.
@@hardboard82I noticed at least some of this came from a prior conversation with me. Curious how you have come to understand "know as we are known"...and I wonder if you've considered this the partial and complete that is being referenced instead. Because like I said previously, right now we only have a partial knowledge of Christ but then when we stand face to face we will know fully as we are known.
Does this make sense? Again, that word know is more than just discerning, it's actually the relational word for knowing someone personally.
@@hardboard82this is one of the weakest arguments for cessationism.
Wait, so the people arguing that healing still happens on a massive scale are LITERALLY saying themselves that they are doing something which is indistinguishable from what cold-reading charlatans do? You can't make this stuff up....
Has anyone in the comments section ever called a 4 day dead, decaying person out of the grave/morgue?
I would strongly but respectfully disagree with DW on including a hypothetical discovery of Philips daughters as Scripture. Jesus said many things that weren't included. That doesn't take away from His deity that things weren't included. That is the wisdom of God in choosing what and what not to include.
These continuationists actually gave the best responses that I’ve heard from their side. Cool to see some guys actually stand their ground in a respectful manner. They didn’t persuade me, not even close. But still interesting.
Being raised in a prophetic environment. I just feel cessationist are doing themselves a disservice. Having someone prophecy your very thoughts and things you have been praying about to confirm that God actually knows you personally and is infact listening and knows the very utterances of your own personal heart, is an amazing experience and is life giving.
It’s almost impossible to persuade anyone who deliberately refuses to believe. Jesus’s resurrection didn’t persuade Pharisees that he is an authentic Messiah either. Your disbelief is amazing!
This one video contains almost everyone who convinced me to leave a NAR church back in 2022. If James White was holding the camera for Joel, than I could drop the almost.
Did you see the video that Remnant did with their other co-host who got fired from a NAR church for not being NAR
@@andrewmattiewalterof course he won’t answer because cessationists twist facts just like they twist scripture
What is NAR?
@cmshaw52 New Apostolic Reformation
Charismatics almost always start spiraling off into nonsense. You wanna see Charismatics in action, check out the Evangelical Church in West Africa.
I so appreciate that you had The Remnant Radio on your show! I think too many cessationists refuse to consider their arguments. I used to kind of default to cessationism, but after hearing their Biblical support for continuationism, on their channel, they've convinced me. Simply based on Scripture.so glad to see believers not dividing over this.
Agreed 💯 %
That's right.
Well there's your problem. Solo scriptura.
@@MeanBeanComedy nobody's adding to the canon-
@@MeanBeanComedy dont read something into scripture that isnt there
Grew up Pentecostal. Never once did someone say "Thus sayeth the Lord" and what they said actually came true, if "prophetic" nor was it in fact true if revealing something not commonly known. It was always made up. This experience along with several verses discussed here and the great love chapter from Paul in Corinthians, turned me into a committed cessationist.
Same with me
That's Just weird.
As a veteran of many churches I can say I refuse to go to go to any church professing signs and wonders. When people profess they can call down Miracles I run the other way. Miracles happen all the time. They have happened to me and most assuredly to you as well. God intervines in our lives when we least expect it. I have never found those churches to be healthy or sound or those people fun to be around.
Just a thought to consider, the counterfeits don't disprove the real thing. I'm a continuationist, and I also freely admit that most of the whackos are on my side.
Well God healed me instantly when I was prayed for in a meeting. As for all the excess ,well so what. Do people go to excess when in love ,yup . But that doesn't nullify that love is good and real
Miracles foster unbelief. Paul, Trophimus, Timothy, etc., were never healed...Miracle Dynamics: God's great miracles through Moses filled Egypt with undeniable evidence for the God of Israel (Ex. 9:27). Yet neither the Bible nor history records Egyptian repentance, only good riddance (Ps. 105:38; Ex. 12:35-36; 14:25). Further and more dramatic, consider the effect of those tremendous miracles on Israel. God followed the 10 plagues (Ex. 7:14-12:30) done on behalf of Israel with the parting of the Red Sea (Ex. 14:21-22) and the drowning of the Egyptian army (Ex. 14:26-28). Then daily for 40 years God appeared to the entire nation as a column of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night (Ex. 13:21-22; Num. 14:14; Neh. 9:12; Ps. 105:39). The Lord kept their clothes from wearing out (Deut. 8:4), produced water out of the Rock (Ex. 17:2-6), fed the people with angels food from heaven (Ex. 16:4-7) and brought meat on demand, literally filling their camp with quail (Num. 11:31-32; Ps. 105:40).
Yet with all this, virtually the entire nation rejected God:
For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? ... Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? Heb. 3:16-17
...and in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation... was gone. Num. 32:13
Jesus did great miracles and crowds followed Him, but mostly out of selfishness. Of thousands who received His miracles, few worshiped Him. Of 10 lepers healed, only one even said thanks (Luke 17:17). Generally, Christ's miracles did not win over the crowds (Mat. 8:34; 11:20; 13:58; Mark 15:8-15; Luke 4:23-28; 8:37; 17:17; John 5:8-10; 10:25-39; 12:29-30).
The Lord explained it this way:
"If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead." Luke 16:31
Why not? With one's eyes one may see a dead body resurrected, but faith does not come by sight. Rather, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). So even Jesus' own city rejected its miracle-working Messiah (Mark 6:4-6).
Great points. The constant desire for miracles seems to be a limit test for unbelief as well. Almost a doubt based belief unless proven otherwise by signs and wonders. Really it will never be enough.
miracles prove who Jesus was and what the apostles said was from Jesus
@@tomtemple69 Agreed and they were for that time in order to set the foundation for the Jesus's church. There's no need for apostolic succession unless we are saying the foundation of Christ and the original apostles was not enough. Apostolic succession is a major principle of Catholicism which ended up in constant changes to doctrine and the elevation of church tradition over the authority of scripture.
@@rinihogewoning6528 that's what all these charismatics need to claim otherwise one of the gifts has ceased
Therefore, just redefine and expand the definitions to include anything, that's why they don't have a problem with someone giving false prophecies
Can the remnant radio guys give us an example and video of where one of their prophets at their churches were specific like they’re saying?
Go watch Chuck Pierce. That would be a good example of their church prophecies.
At 51:30 it started getting strange. It all sounds good when you are using scripture and making biblical arguments. But… if the outflow of those beliefs is “prophetic words” about strings of numbers, no thanks.
I do not find a category in Scripture where Gods word is maybe Gods word. If the Canon is closed, and no words spoken should become John 22, then how can these words be said to be from God? Are there any words God directs to us, where we can flip a coin, or make some kind of analysis upon to decide whether we're gonna obey Him? If you say we do this with sermons, I'd say no we don't. A sermon is to be expounding Gods word, a so call modern prophecy, is expounding what? It's not Scripture...
I enjoyed the discussion. I am a continuationist only because the Bible doesn't say the gifts will cease before Christ comes.
That said, I think what passes as the miraculous gifts in most continuationist churches is complete nonsense. I cringed at the end of the discussion when mentalist tricks were being passed off as prophecy. "I'm seeing someone with the initials __ and the numbers __ [today's date 🤦♂️] and they have back pain." That's a bad joke. 🙄 And in response to that bad joke, we're told that God speaks in various ways and we should limit Him. There isn't a single verse in the Bible that backs up that kind of mentalist playing-of-the-odds trick.
The behavior of charismatics with all their antics is perhaps the best testimony that their position is wrong. False prophecy neither comes from God and is comdemned by death in the law. Often the teacher will attribute the gifts to themselves being gifted vs God. Speaking in spiritual tongues is gibberish and slaying in the spirit is pagan mysticism. And he described things performed by psychics and occultics as being gifts. Lastly, female preachers is tolerated. Know a tree by its fruit and the fruit of their theology speaks for itself.
Do I obey a prophecy I believe contradicts Scripture? You'd say no (I assume), Scripture is the sole infallible word etc. Great, then why do I need another? Why does God preserve 66 books over thousands of years, tell me I live by every word therein, and then say, "Oh, and listing to Bill's word too."
Cessationism would have to cancel a lot of scripture, any supernatural manifestation are frowned upon, emotional exuberance in worship is frowned upon. Manifestation of demonic reality in this world is almost denied because it is so unpleasant. no wonder such theology lulls everyone to sleep. But I still like Doug Wilson. I remember RC Sproul giving a testimony praying for a specific need, decision he had to make and was surprised when it was realized that which he prayed for and was pleasantly surpised because he was a Cessationist. It is almost like saying iIam a halfway Christian because I do not believe so much in the supernatural because we have full council of God in Scripture, therefore discard the super natural....
For all those using "experience" as the yardstick for cessationism, I'll urge you to reconsider because it's unbiblical and smacks of a lack of faith. Has any among you ever seen Jesus Christ before? So why do you believe in Him? Isn't it because of faith, powered by God's Word? So how can you in one breath claim that atheists are fools because they refuse to believe in Christ and yet use that same argument against Continuationists because they believe what the Bible says we should do. To "earnestly desire the Spiritual gifts". Rather than trying to distort the Bible to defend "your theology", let's believe what the Bible says and earnestly desire the gifts. And if you believe that you don't need certain gifts because Scripture is sufficient, that is totally fine. But don't gaslight others' belief of Scripture simply to elevate your views. God bless you all.
Cessationism doesn’t mean that nothing supernatural or miraculous can ever occur. This is a crazy misunderstanding of the doctrine. It simply means that we don’t and won’t have any more figures like the OT prophets or the NT apostles - those were special occurrences and were accompanied by (canonical) special revelation recording the instances and interpreting them through God’s perspective. So, if someone today works a miracle through Christ today, they do not do so because they are a prophet or apostle or because they have any other special status before God - they do so solely due to the mercy and Providence of God.
I think Josh is mistaken here in 18:20 about John 12. His point hes seemingly trying to make is self refuting. If you follow his logic to its conclusion, then the Apostle himself would also be unclear about what was being spoken to him from God. This means that the scripture which was recorded by John could be in fact not inerrant, because John’s interpretation is, in the continuationsist’s view, theoretically fallable
I've been in an in-between space on Cessationism for years. This friendly debate has helped answer some of my personal wondering, especially about how healing and prophecy are handled on each side.
Good to hear.
I'd also say that such a topic, shortened down to about an.hour, doesn't fully cover the scope, and so I'd encourage other videos, but this was enlightening.
Question if the gifts continue today can anyone name someone who is performing miracles that look the same as they did during the time of Christ's Apostles. Just 1. Raised someone from the dead, restored sight to someone blind, someone lame from birth walks? Repeatedly
Heidi Baker. A medical team went to Mozambique and recorded that 70% of the blind people she prayed for gained their sight. And God used a pastor in a sister church raised a man from the dead.
There are no modern prophets, no modern healers and no modern biblical tongues, yet people still pretend to have Apostolic gifts. That's a sin, please follow a good, biblically accurate teacher and repent of this. God can heal and does all the time and praying for the sick is righteous, but no person in the current age can raise the dead or grow a missing limb.
It was a good conversation overall. I gotta disagree with you on the last bit Joel though. Remnant Radio often enables the wolves, and I don't think we can compromise. I don't believe people are writing off Remnant Radio without good cause, especially for the fact that they often justify unbiblical practices. It seemed a bit overly generous to claim that dispensationalists are responsible for writing them off. I get that they're your friends, but if you're not bringing rebuke to some of the things they're advocating for you are in the wrong. This is one thing that I think a lot of charismatics are responsible of doing, which is compromising with extreme charesmatics on the fact that they believe certain similar things. You're doing the same thing as a post millenial, compromising on account of agreeing with them on certain points. Just a critique. Everything else was really good, I do agree that continuationism is a secondary issue. However when it comes to using adivination type guessing in the church that's a no-no.
"It seemed a bit overly generous to claim that dispensationalists are responsible for writing them off"
I think you'll find this kind of immature, ridiculous comments common from Joel.
It looks like Michael Rowntree has female pastors on his church staff. I didn’t know he was an egalitarian. This is a huge doctrinal error.
This is where the Remnant guys always lose me. They lay out arguments that are worth hearing and considering, but then it functionally manifests as stage-magic from their pulpits. If Ms. 9/17 with back pain had just obeyed James 5 and approached the elders for healing, why would she have needed her magic number called out from the stage?
Bingo. The Shepherd calls His sheep by name.
"That the LORD called Samuel: and he answered, Here am I." (1 Sam. 3:4)
These continuationists give some of the best arguments I’ve heard. I’m still a cessationist, but I thought they made some valid points.
That's how you discuss differences. No name calling or mocking. Great job!
I am commanded to obey God. If He says jump, I am to jump. Now, when someone "prophecies" am I supposed to obey? How can I know it's from God? Does God speak out of both sides of His mouth?
Great discussion. I appreciate both sides of the Argument. I am not a Cessationist but appreciate their views on Scripture, Apostles. My fence that i can't seem to get over is the instruction by Paul to eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. But i continue to listen to folks from the reformed side as i believe much of what they teach. The five Solas, the more Calvinistic side of faith.
Saying that scripture coexisted with the Apostolic age is a bit historically illiterate. The letters were written at that time, but they weren't published and codified until centuries later, when the Catholic Church codified the Bible. Silly argument.
They will know we are Christians by our love. I believe that all four of these men are my brothers and it fills my heart my heart to see them treat each other that way in a public forum like this. Truly wish it happened more often.
Nice debate, but a lot of exegetical/experience based/hypothetical arguments were discussed, not much scripture which is best since sola scriptura
1 Cor 14:1 says everyone should desire to prophesy, so it wouldn't be just pastors.
... But the greatest of these is love 🥱
Speak forth the Word of God into your life and your Christian brothers and sisters , many blessings in prophesying
The instruction in 1 Corinthians 14 also suggests that a person should be cautious in speaking for God if the revelation is extra-biblical. Bearing a “message from God” does not automatically place one in a position of authority. The potential prophet should humbly submit his or her message to the leaders of the church for confirmation. Paul’s directive suggests that the gift of prophecy was already beginning to wane as an authoritative gift at the time 1 Corinthians was written.
A preacher or pastor today fulfills a prophetic role to the extent that he proclaims and explains the written Word of God. However, pastors are never called “prophets” in the New Testament. The pastor can confidently say, “Thus saith the Lord,” if he follows it up with chapter and verse. Unfortunately, some pastors assume a prophetic mantle and make pronouncements that are not from God but from their own imaginations.
It was said most of us have had situations, a word from a friend, a circumstance, where is seems clear God was leading. For one, this does not presuppose the attesting gifts are for now. But, let me ask everyone, how many words from a friend, circumstances have you thought to be clearly from God, and time showed it wasn't?
Can anyone point to an example of new testament prophecy that was written down and inscripturated? Obviously Luke records a number of prophetic words in Acts, but is this not merely his work as an historian to record what was happening? Ie, where is the evidence that the first century church considered the gift of prophecy as being on par with Scripture?
Given that everyone in the Corinthian church was speaking in tongues at the same time, there must be a lot of missing Scripture.
Slippery, indeed. Not many clear answers ...
Cessationsm can not be defended usjng nothing but scripture..so its not biblical
I thought this was great, I appreciate you debating this. As a "cessationist", I have very few "continuationist" friends but this showed me a way to open up the discussion lovingly and assuredly ✝
A lot of this "prophecy" just sounds kinda like cold-reading.
Joel was bang on at the end there, about him disagreeing with cessationista attitude. "I dont think we win without the charismatics". Dang that's so good.
"it doesn't mean test the Bible"
This man thinks the Bible was handed to us in leather bindings. If you don't test the bible, you don't come up with a canon.
Where in scripture does it say the gifts have ceased?
Wonderful debate. Very informative and engaging.
The debate was lost when they admitted prophecy could be incorrect...
Wasn’t the prophet Nathan incorrect when he told David to build the Temple? Weren’t the Christians who told Paul not to go back to Jerusalem incorrect by misinterpreting what God revealed to them was going to happen to him as a sign to not go to Jerusalem?
@@KMANelPADRINO For one, Nathan wasn't speaking prophecy when he permitted David to build the temple. That's not particularly difficult to sort out. For two, a prophet is able to say an incorrect statement. What they can NOTTT do is say, "thus says the Lord..." and then be wrong. Those who hear it can misinterpreted to their own detriment but his prophecy cannot be even a LITTLE bit wrong. You know what was prescribed if you got it even a LITTLE wrong on the old testament? Capital punishment. It's a serious thing. You cannot "speak" on behalf of God and then say, "whoops my antenna was a little crooked, welp 🤷"
@@sawyeranderson1394
Nathan was totally prophesying, which is speaking in God’s stead. He literally said “Yahweh is with you.” That’s why Yahweh sent him back to correct his error.
You’re doing special pleading and ignoring the text.
Also you’re wrong about the Torah. You should either read a better translation or read the Hebrew or Jewish Greek texts (both of which I can do, so I’ll help you out here):
Behold the mistranslation of Deuteronomy 18:20 which is rendered incorrectly (even in the ESV)
20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, “or” who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’
20
אַךְ הַנָּבִיא אֲשֶׁר יָזִיד לְדַבֵּר דָּבָר בִּשְׁמִי אֵת אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־צִוִּיתִיו לְדַבֵּר וַאֲשֶׁר יְדַבֵּר בְּשֵׁם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וּמֵת הַנָּבִיא הַהֽוּא׃
18:20 πλὴν ὁ προφήτης ὃς ἂν ἀσεβήσῃ λαλῆσαι ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματί μου ῥῆμα ὃ οὐ προσέταξα λαλῆσαι καὶ ὃς ἂν λαλήσῃ ἐπ᾽ ὀνόματι θεῶν ἑτέρων ἀποθανεῖται ὁ προφήτης ἐκεῖνος
As you can see in both the Hebrew and the Jewish Greek, God doesn’t say “or” when referring to someone who is an idolater and who gets prophecy wrong, but “and.” So the person has to be incorrect “and” be an idolater in order to be executed. Further evidence is the reiteration found in 18:22 for the prophet who does worship God but merely gets something wrong. He isn’t to be executed. He just doesn’t require being listened to, so people shouldn’t fear his incorrect message.
@@sawyeranderson1394
Also, “this says the Lord” is just one statement possible for a prophet to say. It totally isn’t necessary when the *action* the prophet is doing in speaking at all is claiming to represent God’s will.
For example, when Anna and Simeon prophesied about infant Jesus, you would say those weren’t prophecies? Come now, don’t be obstinate.
Also, God can even use pagan priests to prophesy (cue the Zoroastrian Magi we just celebrated, and are due to celebrate again in about two days).
The point is that God is not tame. He is true. But people are fallible. And their failings are even, at times, recorded for us. And God gives us His Law with which to discern His message (as Deuteronomy 18:21-22 clearly declares and teaches).
@@KMANelPADRINO I wasn't making the point that one must say, "thus say-ith the Lord" in order to be prophesying. I was using that phrase as reference, or in place of, the term prophecy. I'm not obstinate, I'm sarcastic 🤌
And to your point, do you question whether the prophecies in the Bible might have been messed up? After all they were delivered by fallible beings, they might have forgotten some of it or accidentally added something to it, right? Er no? Why can prophets all the sudden mess up now?
Its intersting that on a debate about the gifts they go straight to prophecy. Surely, the overarching question is are the gifts for today and THEN you look at how they are to be done. A lot of cessationist objections seem to revolve around how they are done more than if they are for today.
Having witnessed the madness of Charismania churches I looked upon all these so called gifts as fake.
After many years of seeking God studiously I attended an elderly, scholarly, biblical church just passing through a small country village. An elderly lady hit up at the end and said she had a word… I had told the last next to me by chance upon entry about a certain condition, she sat next to me
For The whole service. When the lady spoke, she turned to me… that’s you! It was! I reluctantly went to the front. After prayer something very strange occurred! I will never doubt God can act in these ways again. Nothing has ever happened since that day 20 years ago, but I will not doubt He can move in the gifts today. No drama, no hype, no clapping or dancing, just elderly faithful church folk.
This was a pretty poor showing on their (the two young pastors) part. It sounds like every single charismatic/pentecostal church out there. I am surprised to hear the examples (presumably the best ones) they put forth. Calling out numbers and medical conditions in a room full of people is a gimmick older than everyone in that room.
They spoke of a 'foot condition' that was revealed - was it healed or just identified? What was it and what evidence is there of this claim? They said the 'back condition' was healed without saying what it was. Did a medical doctor verify either of those?
What happens when the "prophet" guesses wrong and the numbers don't mean anything to anyone in the room? Are the 'prophecies' declared false or is the prophet? Is the "gift" diminished,the prophet left with egg on his face and the faith of people shattered?
I think the perceived benefit from their perspective is having 'insider knowledge' regarding day to day life - something everyone would like to have. Does God tell them which stocks to invest in and when to sell? Does He reveal winning Lotto numbers to them? Does He whisper answers to them when they take exams? The question about Covid was on point- nobody called that one.
I saw these guys somewhere before- maybe F4F.
Well, do your questions actually deal with what the discussion is about?
For instance, prophets hear when God speaks to them by signs, riddles, visions, and dreams (peep Numbers 12). Your question on whether God reveals to them things like lottery numbers or anything at all is by nature a question to ask God and not any prophet. You could just as easily ask Samuel that had you lived at his time- or even asked him why he couldn’t predict the corruption of his own sons.
Also, I will say that there are true prophets who get things wrong in the Bible. Nathan was wrong that David was to build the Temple and God sent him back to David to correct that.
In Acts 21:4 several Christians were warned by God what awaited Paul in Jerusalem and they interpreted that true word incorrectly, saying that Paul wasn’t to go up to Jerusalem. But that was incorrect.
Finally, in Deuteronomy 18:20, the conjunction there for the person leading people into idolatry and the person getting things wrong is *and* and not *or* in the Hebrew text. It’s a mistranslation to give it as *or.*
So then, it is only a prophet who is idolatrous who also got things wrong who was to be put to death, meaning that true prophets could get the riddles or signs that God sent them incorrect. In fact, the Scripture speaks of some prophets who had perfect track records explicitly, like how “not one word from Samuel fell to the ground.” That wouldn’t be said if it was generally assumed that true prophets always got things correctly interpreted, nor would there be the above examples from Nathan and the companions of Paul.
@@KMANelPADRINO You are equating Samuel to 'prophets' of today when you know that is not proper.
@@solideomusical
Are you a prophet to presume my thoughts? Rather than worship your theology, pursue the Scriptures and see.
@@KMANelPADRINO Are you questioning that I am a prophet if my conclusion about your thoughts was wrong? If so, on what basis?
@@solideomusical
But Samuel was unique in one way among the other prophets. According to 1 Samuel 3:19, Samuel grew so intimately with God and having learned the valuable lesson of not presuming God’s voice to speak (see the actual story that this verse concludes), that Samuel actually didn’t get any of his predictions wrong. This isn’t to say that Samuel himself was infallible, see the inside look we got from God’s leading Samuel along like a child to anoint a new king in the place of Saul and how Samuel was totally clueless and only had crumbs of details to go off of, and how Samuel himself was biased towards David’s older brothers (who as recorded in Scripture were righteous men themselves).
God just isn’t as tame as your theology warrants, is all.
Thank you for this video! I am reformed in my beliefs and a continuist. Most of my friends are cessationists and this video really gave me a lot of confidence in my beliefs and what the Bible teaches! Love Doug Wilson! Appreciate Remnant Radio. Thankful for this conversation.
You are not alone. I'm a continuist myself. Scripture have clearly shown that 9 gifts of the Spirit are operative today as it was in the beginning. One thing as continuist we should hold fast to the sovereignty of God.
Prophecy in part does not mean the prophecy in scripture can be partially wrong, it means it’s incomplete as in not revealing all.
Agreed
Acts 6 Stephen operated in signs & wonders through the Holy Ghost & Wasnt even an apostle.
Read 1Corinthians 15, the last apostle of Christ was Paul, with 500+ others
Wait, what's this?! Why wasn't I told about this??!! Judging by the comments, this is a super great discussion. Can't wait to listen!
52:00 a demon could know the initials, age and foot injury of that man.
Yes you blaspheming the Holy Spirit . You’d rather attribute something like that to demons . Hypocrite
Here’s my opinion… nobody should be called pastor… it’s unbiblical and puts the pastor in the wrong light. You might as well be called “Father” like in the Roman Catholic cult.
Remnant’s statement about what they experienced with initials and numbers is literally what psychic shows do.
Sounds new age. We often forget that Satan masquerades as an angel of light so we must be careful and not so quick to ask for a "word from God". In fact, if we are so eager to "hear a word" or "see a sign" then the easier it is to be deceived because our defenses will be down. For example, if we are desperate to see an angel then we would believe whatever it says if one were to appear. Now look at what Paul says: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8, ESV).
Agreed. The only initials and numbers spoken in worship should be an abbreviation of a Biblical Book and its chapter & verse(s). And of course the hymn number.
A lot of church fraudsters have actually been exposed on how they do this. Some would use information from their target's relatives, or from their social media accounts, or from prayer requests that they have submitted. It's a very easy trick and it's crazy how easily convinced they are of this.
I agree, this seems like mentalism and where is the Biblical example?
Some who claim to be prophets are mentally ill, the others are all grifters.
I’m really pumped to hear this debate!
Where you want special knowledge, God gives His Spirit and His word.
I really appreciate this graceful conversation. Everything that proceeds from our mouths as with our thoughts needs to be brought into captivity and subject to the authority of Christ in conjunction with the mindfulness that we will be held accountable with stricter judgement for leading someone astray, intentional or not...regardless if we hold the office of teacher or not. The same goes for prophesy and evangelism. I'm a Cessationalist/Calvinist/Baptist/Charismatic in the sense that I believe the authoritative offices of Apostles and Prophets have ceased but the supernatural manifestations gifted by the Holy Spirit are still very much needed today as they were the day the Church was born on Pentecost, especially those of wisdom and discernment.
I don't attend a Charismatic Church because it's been my experience that Christians tend to fall into one of two camps: those who are over obsessed with supernatural experiences and those who are uncomfortable with even talking about the possibility. I prefer to hang with those who prefer sound Gospel doctrine over thrilling experiences, not that I haven't had my fair share of the latter.
I wish both camps could have more of these discussions with each other.
I am a *Particular Baptist* (reformed like Charles Spurgeon). I believe that term might describe your denomination also.
My church is a member of *FIRE (the Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals)*
@@ronlanter6906 I really like FIRE's doctrinal statements. Our Church isn't strictly baptist but is conservative, evangelical reformed and part of a global network of small churches called the Great Commission Collective. There, the sign gifts are not to be overtly expressed at any of our meetings due to the greater charismatic movement's emphasis of them as evidence of a believer over the evidence of the Holy Spirit's work of producing a Holy life in the believer. I might pray in tongues privately out of earshot of those who don't understand what I'm speaking...after all, the purpose of communication is to be understood by the listener and collective prayer is communication.
47:38 where Joel is speaking about how every pastoral issue can be addressed by scripture. No special extra biblical revelation needed.
This statement made me realize that believing God gives us special revelation today (& I believe the RR guys would say it would align with the Bible) is actually laziness.
I’m in Ezekiel right now and God is speaking to Israel through Ezekiel. The principles there are so applicable to modern day situations though.
If we actually read our Bibles (from beginning to end), we’d have so much wisdom that is applicable to EVERY area of life. Every situation.
However Christians today are sooooo lazy. We’d prefer that God speaks to us about how to handle X situation rather than to be continually saturated in scripture.
Read your Bibles, read it often and go to a good church. Ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom and guidance and see how you have what you need for every life circumstance.
Stop being lazy and expecting God to download easy answers for you.
I agree. The charismatic movement has created many who chase divine experiences, emotional highs, and signs, and as a result I notice that many are biblically illiterate and can barely explain the gospel if not at all. I'm not saying this about everyone but it seems to be the general trend.
Okay I am sorry but doesn't God know things that we do not know and cannot know? For example, I can desire to buy a house, have money for it and all the boxes checked....but what if it's not God's will for me at that time? Or what if there are two houses I am choosing from and don't know which to pick? I can apply biblical principles for sure, but then what if all that lines up?
I pray and seek God. Because God knows all things past, present and future. And I have God lead me on which house to purchase.
The same could be said of any number of decisions, but often people leave God out of the equation because "God doesn't speak anymore because we have the completed canon"
@@BEABEREAN10cessationists pray for wisdom and guidance in these situations as well. We just don’t expect an audible voice to speak to us and tell us “buy the house on 6th Street”
In those situations I pray that it would be made clear which house/job etc is best for us.
@@sarahd5341 I don't expect and audible voice either. MOST charismatics aren't looking for that. I am looking for the leading of the Spirit on the inside because God said he gave us his Spirit to lead us into all truth.
Just like the Spirit forbade the apostles from going into Asia, the Spirit can lead and guide us as well in our life.
Excited to hear this discussion!
This was absolutely phenomenal. If only the Church would be more Spirit led in such a unifying, God-honoring conversation from fellow brothers.
16:25 in the video, Josh says the word is
-sufficient to save us
-reveal the knowledge of Jesus (kinda just a repetition of point #1)
-give normative practice in conduct in life and the church
(ESV) 2 Timothy 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
it equips us for EVERY good work, what is sounds like is they are getting revelation for some good works that Scripture is not sufficient for... 🤔
"that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."
is it sufficient or not? or is there need for extrabiblical revelation regarding a certain good work?
That's sort of like saying that because I have scripture, I don't need anything else. I don't need a hug, encouragement, friends, guidance and wisdom from counselors, therapy, nothing. But we do need these things, and it doesn't mean scripture is inadequate or impotent. The Lord gave us scripture and the body to minister to us through both practical gifts and gifts of the Spirit.
@@RCGWho for all matters of the FAITH, Scripture is sufficient
exhortation, encouragement, consolation is from the Bible
teaching is from the Bible
and we are talking about revelation from God which is what they are claiming
2 Timothy 3:14-17
read it
@@RCGWho what does God still need to tell the church that He hasn't told us in Scripture? that means the Scriptures aren't sufficient for equipping us for every good work and a massive part of the church is not privy to this revelation from God...
@@tomtemple69 wouldn't it be awesome if our omniscient God told us things that we didn't know naturally? Like what house to buy, car, maybe something about our health, maybe revealing the heart intentions of sinners to bring them to repentance (we see that multiple times in scripture).
These are things that aren't written in the scriptures nor could they be for everyone personally as they differ, but are very helpful to our edification.
Not to mention, the Bible says it contains all we need, and part of that containment is the instructions regarding prophecy. It's just so weird to me that we claim we don't need something the bible says is there for our benefit
@@BEABEREAN10 " Like what house to buy, car, maybe something about our health, maybe revealing the heart intentions of sinners to bring them to repentance (we see that multiple times in scripture)."
whos says we need God to tell us that? the Bible isn't enough to bring someone to repentance?
have you ever heard of the term "Christian liberty" and "biblical principles"
God is not your magic 8 ball
I was a closet Pentecostal going to an orthodox Presbyterian church for 27 years. Great place to be grounded and serve the body. But the Spirit led me to an AOG church (imperfect but asking of God). I have grown in Spiritual gifts of knowledge and prophecy. Not a lot or all the time, but it happens. Also, praying in the spirit, solo on tongues is a blessing for the Spirit lead church that allows Him to guide prayer. So my reply to the question, What has happened to convince ?, is that the workings of the gifts show God’s authorative power and builds the faith of the believer to trust God to move and not to trust our own power and wisdom by over stepping via theology alone. God wants faith and action.
It seems the remnant crew uses scripture to determine their belief while Doug and Joel rely on what they “feel” and “want”.
They stated eph 2:20 proves prophets and apostles were the foundation. We do not lay a foundation over and over.
If the gifts are normative for today, can you record yourself doing any of them? That way the debate can be over.
@@ShepherdMinistryyour argument is flawed. Apollos and Barnabas are just a few examples of many apostles and prophets recorded in the Bible who don't have a single verse attributed to them as part of Scripture. Being an apostle or prophet doesn't mean that God's inspired word is expected to be part of Scripture.
@@fidelamoah9115 When and where did I ever state Apostles and Prophets had everything recorded?
A Cessationist can be found in the Old Testament. They are the 10 spies returning from the Promise Land. Their thinking is the exact same - God may have done miracles back there in Egypt but He won't do any miracles in the Promise Land. God wasnt pleased with their unbelief.
“Mathias and Paul half cheeking it.” This quote is the best thing ever!
Doug Wilson is a beast! Simple clear precise line of questioning only to be explained away and deflected. They (continuationist) could have just given a simple no at times. I like Remnant Radio, they have several good interviews, they are a great resource for the church. Typically, for me this argument comes down to defining words that get painted with broad brush strokes which most cessationists reign that in pretty well.
At 11:40 - You don't need a "lower case apostle." That is just called an evangelist. That's why Paul, who was an apostle, referenced Timothy, who also was a church planter, to "do the work of an evangelists, making full proof your your ministry." (2nd Tim 4:5). I don't know why 1000 scholars can't figure this out.
There are five leadership giftings in the body of Christ, apart from other spiritual and practical giftings.
-Apostles were established by Christ to "bind and loose," meaning to establish the doctrine of the NT (Mt. 16:19, 18:18). There were 83 of them in total, modeled after Moses, the 12 heads of Israel's armies, and the 70 elders, who prophesied with Moses. Judas was killed. Matthias replaced Judas. Paul replaced Matthias.
-Prophets were given to the church to exhort, encourage, and warn the body of Christ accprding to the Apostolic message. These were not limited to the 12 and 70, as is plain by Phillips daughters, the prophets of Corinth, the prophets of Antioch, etc. Nor is there any evidence that these gifts cease until Christ returns, at which time, prophecy will be punishable by death. (See Dan 9:24, Zech 13, 1st Cor 13:9-12, Eph 4:1-13).
-Pastors lead and exhort local bodies according to the apostolic teaching, conducing church discipline when necesssary.
-Teachers teach the body of Christ, either locally, or itinerantly, deeping everyone's knoweldge of the apostolic teaching, and its roots in the OT.
-Evangelists herald the gospel in new places, planting church, and carrying out initial discipleship, until these churches mature to the point of having thier own elders. Thats why Timothy, the evangelists, was given instructions on selecting elders for the church at Ephesus, whcih he helped plant, as was Titus in Crete.
None of this is hard, unless you confuse it by Preterism, Post-Millennialism, and appeals to Christendom as a real thing, distroting the necessary passages that logically distinguish the ordained authoritative offices of the Church. We call evangelists "missionaries" now, or "church planters," and we've pretty much eradicated the office of teacher, which is why everyone in the body of Christ is so ignorant now, allowing creeps like Doug Wilson and fools like Joel Webbon to get airtime.
Basically
Continuationist, “Scripture says…”
Cessationist, “but what about…”