Hey Esfand! I used to be a Ret Paladin back in Vanilla Wow -- great Vid by the way, reminded me of all those great times -- anyway, some people would give me a hard time just because of my spec, then they'd see how much I'd invested (Max. AV rep farm, getting in line for certain BiS items etc...) in order to 'be useful' for my friends and guild mates. That was paramount for me and their acceptance really brought us closer together. And yeah, took me ages but eventually I really did deal damage (although I was never as high on the damage meter as you). Plus I could buff and did occasionally finish tanking the raid boss if our MT got downed. I was valued among my peers for being so versatile. To all those of you, who have heard of the news: Blizz WoW Vanilla servers and consider to roll a ret paladin I say this: Don't let all the snide remarks discourage you -- there's greatness in being a ret -- you just gotta chew through all the naysayers, find some cool guys and prove that you are a worthy ally. Thanks for your vid, Esfand. Cheers, Kavain
@@bobthebomb6498 This, this is why I want to try classic, people actually play together, no matter the spec, no matter everything, just a bunch of people playing the game together. Hope I'll find good guild, where I can play spec that I want.
@@poorpriest4549 Best wishes mate. WoW is a game and is supposed to be fun. Fun can be "try hard" or a bunch of level 1's trying to down Hogger. I hope you find your guild and a good group of friends to run with.
I like raiding as a healer because I don't have to spend any money on consumables, and then I just use that gear in PvP after raids for fun. 20/0/31 and 33/0/18 were beautifully versatile specs. Both specs could heal very well in PvE and were arguably the best healers in PvP. Those 2 specs were also great in 1v1 dueling, or helping your friends level in various dungeons by mass pulling everything and aoe the mobs with consecration/retribution aura while healing yourself in between. I was a miner/engineer and didn't spend much time farming ore to sell, so being able to save money on consumables and respecting between PVP and PvE builds was the best thing I could ask for hah
I felt like sharing my two cents on this guide, and I hope you don't mind. I've been raiding for the past 5months as a retri paladin on Darrowshire, and I notice a lot of similarities between us. I started off thinking that everyone was going to be right, and that retri paladin was going to suck, and so I decided to try it out myself. At first it seemed like everyone was wrong, since I was topping the meters in dungeons. Sadly, the dungeons in Vanilla are a poor representation of what paladins can and cannot do. There is no denying that retri paladins are indeed capable in dungeons, as demonstrated in your video, and I am well aware of it from personal experience. I could sit here and type for over an hour in regards to certain abilities that paladins use, such as seal of command, and how its intricate's work. But there are a few important things to mention, and one of them would be the use of -> seal of crusader. It's not ideal and most often the serious guilds will ban the use of it until the ZG patch comes along. This is due to the debuff slots being limited to 8, which means that those 8 slots are priorities by important debuff slots that increase the overall damage of a raid. This is why you usually don't see every dot class putting up their own crappy debuffs, such as hunters serpent sting... well, you get the point. So with judged effect of seal of crusader out of the window, it means that your dps will go down. Sure, we could sit here and actually bash the effectiveness of the judged effect, but it's a loss to your dps regardless. Next is the gearing. If you take your time to thoroughly search through your item list in raids, you will quickly come to realize that the itemzation for retri paladin sucks ass. Tier 1 and 2 are plagued until ZG patch rolls out, since they're stuck with +bonus healing. In ZG it turns into spell damage, which helps, but the tier sets are still pretty bad. I was rocking 38% crit chance on my pre-raid paladin (stacked with buffs, and aura's such as feral druid crit) - it was amazing since my up time for vengeance was 70-75% in raids. The problem was, when everyone else was improving their gear, I was stagnant. The whole molten core raid provides barely any upgrades to your set (apart from a new main hand weapon and perhaps 2 other worth while items) - the rest of it either sucks or isn't available to you. Onyxia provides nothing, apart from perhaps the Necklace that might be worth your time. Blackwing lair that is set to release on your realm in a few months? - the same thing happens there as it does with MC. The gear overall is garbage and tier 2 is not a lot better than tier 1, and tier 1 is shiet for retri paladins. The conclusion is that everyone else will begin to out-gear you, and until ZG comes along, you'll notice that your position in the DPS meter will not even be top 10. If you happen to be top 10 in raids, then something is wrong. Either the other dps is slacking, undergeared or they just simply suck and need to be replaced. Anyone serious with Vanilla will eventually come around to realize that retri paladins aren't all that great. When the gates of ahn'qiraj open up, you will see things change quite a bit. But realistically speaking, that is MANY, MANY months off from the realm that you're currently playing on. Another thing that is worth mentioning, is that retri paladins are AMAZING at keeping up the debuff for Nightfall (Axe is released in BWL patch) - it took me over 1,000 gold to craft my own, since my guild didn't want to fund me at the time, which sucked major balls. But once I had it crafted, I realized that seal of command is garbage with Nightfall. I could explain the in depth details as to why, but believe me, the seal called: SoR is a lot better than command for keeping Nightfall up. Not to mention that the pre-patch version of Nightfall Axe is weak as fuck, which means that you're forced to go SoR either way. Problem with SoR is that again... you can't get any decent amount of spell power until ZG, which means that your SoR is garbage until then. Three weeks ago, my guild killed Ragnaros for the 20th time or so (lost count now) - but finally the legendary piece dropped. After 5 months of auto-attacking with a wet noodle weapon, I thought to myself "finally I can switch" - but I decided to pass on it. I am currently the only Nightfall carry in my guild, and between a Retri paladin and other classes, well... our class reigns supreme as Nightfall users, if we accept the fact that we must use SoR with it. Simple math of increased raid DPS is pretty huge, when you count the average caster amount in your raid (13-15) x 15%. It's a huge dps increase to your overall raid if you proc the weapon, and manage to keep it up for lengthy periods of time. Thus, you're far from useless, even if your dps is shiet, because of the Nightfall axe. Getting quite tired of typing now, and I am sure you're tired of reading this. But one last thing - most vanilla bosses are assholes towards melee. Molten core is plagued with bosses that simply aren't melee friendly, and since retri paladins are inherently a BURST dps spec, it means you suffer the most from down times such as: Baron Geddon, or Shazzrah. Even Golemagg and Garr. Arguably Magmadar too. Half of Molten Core alone is a jerk towards retri paladins, and it doesn't always get better from there. Long live retri paladins though! - Huzzah! Edit:I'm sorry for the slight misinformation in this post, and that's the tier 2 change. It doesn't happen until later patches, so it remains garbage even longer. I believe that it is "possible" to get almost a full suit of armor that is directed towards pure physical damage (if you ignore the hit cap of 8%) - (aka, getting almost a full suit of pure warrior gear) - that's how bad retri paladin gear really is until AQ40. The issue is maintaining the hit-cap requirement, and it means you'll have to fight better dps classes for important/vital pieces of equipment. They won't be happy about it, and unless you're on very good terms with a guild that you're in, it'll result in people being pissed off at the fact that a retri paladin is getting important items over them. The main issue with pure physical gear, is that you've got a really crappy mana pool, and you'll blow OOM very quickly. Stacking consumables to off-set this is fine to some degree on fights that are quick and easy (most of molten core) and parts of BWL. But the mana issue will remain an annoying problem until AQ40.
Hopefully you're still around to ask, but how does the PvP gear stack against the MC/BWL gear? I'm OK with being crap DPS because I'm not huge on topping the meters. I see the benefits of buffs and utility and the use of Nightfall to increase raid DPS and progression. In addition, PvE is a great outlet for PvP gear which is what I thoroughly enjoy the most and as Ret, you can maintain a PvP/PvE spec simultaneously! Heck, I'd even be willing to roll 31/0/20 for Holy with ret capabilities as that can do well in PvP. It's a chunk of material to read, but any honest opinions would be appreciated.
I want to apologies for the longest delay in my reply. Now about your question about the pvp gear - if you're refering to the rank 14 items, then I'd say they're equal to BWL gear or even better. The unfortunate part of the pvp gear is that it's stagnant and it remained as such since it's release, while the pve scene kept growing all the up untill Naxxramas. So which ever classic realm that you're playing on, you're going to eventually get outgeared from the PvE players once they reach AQ40 and Naxx. On that note though, you'll be more than capable of destroying people with the rank 14 items in pvp. Dps wise though, you're always going to be average at best.
Did you use rank 5 SoC and rank 1-2 consc? Also time your judgements for only when you have vengence procs? Did you judge often as possible as another way to keep your vengence procs up? If you were going oom try deranking SoC, because judging on rotation, as a second means of vengence procs is more important than the dmg over short term. Stacking stre is the most effective method.. as most of your dmg is white hits.. not SoC procs or vengence.. not crit. aim for as much AP as possible! If you have mana issues.. try get some Mp5 items.. Mp5 is always nice for vanilla paladin.. dont stack int its useless.. if you want stack anything stack Mp5. and im not even going to talk about SotR.. its good for wep speed 2h 2.20-2.70 maximum. and never stack SP gear on melee.. did you do that in TBC NO!
the judgement of the crusader doesnt increase your damage to every judgement, its only when you judgement off of a seal of the crusader. since you are only using command, you are getting nothing for those 3 talent points, unless you are seal swapping for the extra holy damage.
I think you meant to say judging off of SoR, but still, this can't be right. The talent points maybe don't make it that much stronger, but Def judge crusader if the raid will allow it on bosses.
The opening sound to this video reminded me of a sound clip from Dark Age of Camelot. Did you play? Nevermind...of course it is. Shame Esfand is too busy gaming so he doesn't respond to these.
Not sure if you are still checking these comments,. but do you know how HoW should work, when does it actually reset auto swing. Feels like it is barely worth using because not too much damage, and just fucks swingtimer (atleast on my server atm).
Why Spiritual Focus? Isn't it better to deal 15% plus damage judging Seal of Righteous? Or the extra intellect so you can critical more often with Judgement and Consecration and obtain Vengeance?
Consecration doesn't crit, Judgement is based off of melee crit, and you're not using seal of righteousness in a command build. However, if you look in Part 2, I talk about taking Divine Intellect as an alternative, this was a build for early on in the server. The current build I'm using now uses the variation of Part 2. I'm thinking about making a new updated PvE Guide with my current setup.
Thanks for this good ol' video! I have always been Horde since vanilla, and now my friends are going for Alliance in Classic. That kinda takes away my whole excitement for playing classic. Classic for me is The Barrens, Silverpine Forrest, you know? And worst of all, I just can't find myself ever feel connected to a Human Warlock, a Gnome Mage etc. But Ret Paladin? Now this is the class I always hated the most(comming from Horde), and that oddly makes me more interested in trying one. Worried they would suck and all though, made me not really consider it........... until i found Your channel. Been plowing through various of vids now and I think I am gonna do it! Become that bastard Ret Paladin who noone likes, not in PvP and not in raids since "ret sucks" :P Thank You for this inspiration!
4 years later, how did things turn out for you? Did you enjoy ret? I think it's a "love it or leave it" kind of thing. Idk why, but even when Paladins are objectively boring to play, I never get tired of them. Probably made 4 or so since Classic came out, lol.
Im play ret paladin now. I have put point in Seal of Righteousness in holy tree and it say it shall do more dps like 9% now. Way shall i not put in this or have you forgote this? Becuse way shall i put in seal of cruseder instad? Becuse you not use seal of cruseder rigth
what's the name of the addon that lets you track when your auto attack will be used ? also what is the name of the addon that lets you track your threat ?
Played Paladin in Vanilla and had all that delicious stuff - AQ40 + PvP-Set was pretty rediculous :D Playing a Shockadin was pretty awesome too (with full T2). But in raid i still ran as a semi-priest ;D
Honestly I mean the swap to a shockadin even in current classic and I feel its the real way to go still going some ret for seal of command but holy shock adds a much needed dps skill to a pally's rotation that its hard not to run it in pvp, I'd probably say for straight dps on boss full ret is most likely the way to go since its got more sustainable dps with vengeance and sanc aura but shockadins are 100% better for pvp where the 30 sec timer on holy shock isn't a big deal as you'll have it up going into each new fight, the hit damage might look alot weaker but you aren't rng heavy hoping for a crit to actually smack someone, it makes a far more consistent burst dps you can combo favor and shock for a 100% crit with shock or use favor to drop a fat heal saving mana and time since you won't need to cast double holy lights to top off health a holy light crit does that work and you get the mana back letting you retaliate against people trying to bandage or break combat while you are healing in bubble. I can't wait to see how it performs in full T2 definitely going to leave full rets in the dust by that point and lets not forget the ability to be flexible and heal effectively to keep someone low health alive. Honestly the mana refund on heal crits does wonders for mana mangement I even take benediction when goin into the ret tree making me a whole lot better on mana then my pally was full ret since it was normal affair to after being pushed to bubble i'd basically come out bone dry on amana as 2 holy lights is almost 1k manage which made up a sizable chuck of my mana pool and between consecrate and recasting seals after a judgement you burn through mana rather quick, and shockadin can mitigate that with mana refunds on heals. Personally I feel like a spelladin should be a shockadin since they're the ones who will benefit the most out of a spelladin build gear wise.
Dudes, Not sure if you are watching the comments for this vid still but I have a question on the coming official re release of vanilla. I was young in the original vanilla days and played several classes none of which were paladin. I have played and loved ret paladin pretty much every xpansion since and that is truly what I want to play when vanilla rereleases through blizzard. My question to you is, do you think the dps that you can make possible on elysium will be relative when it comes out, or do you think that the dps will be lower or perhaps significantly lower than that it is on your current ps? I am raiding with a big group of friends who are all pretty hardcore. While I know they wont care of I do this and am a little behind, I dont think they will be happy if the dps is looking horrific. Again I want to play rets, but I have hesitations due to what APPEARS to be the limitations of the class via the current posts I read...
Paladins are pretty much guaranteed to be worse off than "pure" classes just due to how they scale with gear. Pally dps is based on procs and crits, which is bad in pve unless they have adjusted threat tables, or you'll be pulling threat off of tanks. From what I understand, Classic will release the upper level raids and instances in waves. Since itemization was garbage through much of WoW, Ret Paladins are going to struggle to fight over gear with Warriors and the Paladin's early sets were kinda weird as they hadn't actually fleshed out what endgame roles were going to be. Ret best bet would be PVP sets unless they release updated gear in the 5 mans that was better than MC drops. Until AQ comes out anyway.
I can't understand why but I want to roll paladin for classic. But some reason after hearing how bad its perceived I'm rethinking it. Idk I plan on being a casual player maybe Id be better off doing something else
I’ve been playing classic lately and I’m enjoying it a lot but I get the stigma totally I swear every time I’m in a group and need on crit gear someone gets upset
Fight the stigma man. I remember playing Ret paladin in Vanilla WoW and luckily I never directly have to deal with the stigma. I remember the occasional snubbing at lower levels ,fast forward, I was a strong ret paladin in the top 5 for 40 man dps charts with my soulforge armor and Earthshaker hammer from Molten Core. We got buffs, and I remember being able to just destroy mobs. I will never not play a ret paladin, I enjoy it just way too much.
the reason people hate ret paladins is not because they suck, it's because they are jealous that you have consecration and they do not. (even though consecration burns through mana like a mother)
You do a lot less dmg on the other private servers? So which one is blizz like? As far as how we should expect it to be when blizzard releases classic servers
I've watched this over and over. Both the video series. So helpful. I'm not maxed but I rarely get beat in dps atm. I haven't invested in benediction yet but I'm getting too that point soon. Your comment on judging on CD has me intrigued. I do oom on larger pulls so I want too get this right... I judge SoC on CD only when mobs are still at higher HP, and when I know I won't be switching targets to judge SoCru. Is this the correct way to go about that (using "critical thinking" as a dps player) or should I just forget SoCru judge all together? Mind you at my level trash mobs stay up a decent amount of time. Usually two-three SoC judges. Also I'm just now using pummler atm so should I just seal SoCru and judge SoC on stun CD until I grab a slower weapon? Sometimes I'll just swap to my Verigan to use SoC instead. Would like to know these sort of lowbie/leveling tips. I have not done much testing with this theory yet as I just got the pummler today.
Sorry for cry but i play holy pally because my guild doesn't let any pally get dps gear in raids that none else needs without wasting your dkp. Also pally needed truestrike shoulders and won against my warrior roll. That guy quit on the server and didn't raid any else than ZG. Still i don't have truestrikes on warrior but any way server has died and i have moved to another place. EDIT: however, my guild had ret paladin who sucked so bad always at bottom in meters. No dispells on chromaggus.
why did you go for Spiritual Focus and not Divine Intellect? you need int for mana and SF is only for healers. and Repetence is completely useless you should have put that point on Benediction.
Why not 5/5 Int? Just curious...I'm unapologetically ret for years, and leveling one on Anathema right now. Also, I'm not using imp Crusader right now (for leveling) - but come 60, I feel like this spec is the play db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#sE0zZxhZEf0tbcq...am I crazy? Love the video. +1
Swing and a miss on my part. Guess I better keep watching to learn how to swing it lol. Thanks! I thought I was crazy putting 5/5 Int and 5/5 Benediction. Gotta relearn my rotations now...
How about dps against raid bosses? I mean trash is trash, but if you can't deliver on a boss fight, it's kinda difficult to get raid spots. I really want to make it into raids as a ret paladin. Also, what server you're on and how does it handle the math? I'm already planning ahead for the official Blizzard Classic servers, now that they're a thing, and many private servers have custom math for paladin spells, like AP scaling for spells that never had any in retail vanilla etc, so I'd like to judge viability. For example, on Nostalrius, Consecrate scaled with your AP and Seal of Crusader never lowered your Swing-Damage while still increasing your Swing speed, which made paladins absolutely nuts when it came to DPS, but none of those glitches is going to be on the official servers.
I wouldn't agree about ret paladins being the only class that needs Two handed melee weaps though. Theres a fury warrior in my guild with hand of rag that absolutely destroys meters. Respect to ret paladins though of course. They need 2 handers too.
I always thought that in Vanilla, Retties did great for ... 5 seconds and then Mana became Myth and Legend and spoken only in whispers. So how the Hell did you keep your Mana so well-maintained?
Thanks for the reply Esfand. I ran Holy PvP on one server and an MS Warrior on another server back in the day. Ret had some nice changes in Vanilla, but they were almost always nerfed right after because the burst potential was so huge. I like the idea of Ret being viable pre-2.1.0 Horde but the hoops and hahs you have to go through just to KEEP at it make the spec just damn EXPENSIVE and a chore to maintain over, say, a Rogue or a Warlock or even a Hunter. Still, you look like you got pockets deep enough to play it well enough, so good on you. Keep swinging.
I'm rolling a ret paladin in PvE darrowshire ELYSIUM server. Doing good atm, I'm never at bottom of dps and my talents are almost as yours. I don't understand that estigma, Palas do good
So why is the server that you are on, that allows paladins to do a lot of damage, the one that is not the badly scripted one? I noticed you kept repeating that the other servers were badly scripted, like someone went, "Oops i fumbled the script. I guess Paladins suck now." What if your server is the badly scripted one? Because that stigma was there when Vanilla was retail and they wouldn't be badly scripted. I guess we will find out if Paladins really could do the dps when Classic comes out.
While playing as you like is great, Paladins will never be as good as other classes due to the toolset available. In Vanilla, they simply don't scale well even through Naxx, and at the end of vanilla, were the best single target healers in the game. At least they weren't as bad off as hunters, which hardly increased in dps power compared to all the other classes from mc thru naxx and have no other role.
So Esfand has arguably BiS for ret paladin and an ashkandi and he is only ever pulling 200-300 dps and is only ever #10-7 on the damage meter. I suspect he doesnt show other team mates in his actual dps meter because they would probably show 400-600 dps at least and that does not look good. I wanted ret paladins to work as much as anyone, I loved the class ever since I started playin in Wrath, but its sad to say it doesnt look viable at all in vanilla. And Esfand gave me false hope that it would work. I mean if I farmed pre raid BiS on a ret paladin and only pull what? 100-200 dps at most? Jesus i would feel terrible spending 100g per raid on consumables and getting dusted by a rogue or warrior that spends perhaps 10g. The light and how to swing it series is seriously misleading and it should start off with the disclaimer: You will never beat warriors, rogues, mages, or warlocks unless they are lazy and/or clueless; you will only ever be able to maybe compete with hunters in dps and they have arguably more utility than you (and most raids only ever want one). Esfand is trying to make it seem like Ret can be viable, it is not. I talked to someone from raid three because i was curious as to how an actual raiding guild feels about a ret paladin and after fangirling over Esfand for a minute he (anonymous Raid Three guildie) explained to me that Raid Three is not a competitive raiding guild, but a "meme spec guild that has fun" and lets things like feral kitty dps and boomkins into their ranks. At least I wised up to this before I went all the way to 60 on my paladin. Hopefully others will see this and not waste their time on a ret paladin if their true goal is good dps and feeling satisfied with their performance. Esfand won't respond to this, there is nothing he can say other than that I and other nay sayers are actually correct. I wish Ret paladins worked, but sadly they dont as evidenced by this BiS paladin doing 300 dps max.
He says in the video that he plays it because he enjoys it, not because it’s easy to get top dps. If your goal is to stroke you little epeen by topping the meters, then play an easy dps class like warrior, rogue or mage.
you know... palatanks can also compete when they have agro gear and lots of trashmobs. healers may hate it, but tanking more then one enemy was never so easy :) and yeah its realy funny to overwhelm mages and other aoe classes in some encounters xD
A dwarf Paladin playing a human Paladin.
Nothing will beat this comment :D
You know the dudes like 6'2 right
Hey Esfand!
I used to be a Ret Paladin back in Vanilla Wow -- great Vid by the way, reminded me of all those great times -- anyway, some people would give me a hard time just because of my spec, then they'd see how much I'd invested (Max. AV rep farm, getting in line for certain BiS items etc...) in order to 'be useful' for my friends and guild mates. That was paramount for me and their acceptance really brought us closer together. And yeah, took me ages but eventually I really did deal damage (although I was never as high on the damage meter as you). Plus I could buff and did occasionally finish tanking the raid boss if our MT got downed. I was valued among my peers for being so versatile.
To all those of you, who have heard of the news: Blizz WoW Vanilla servers and consider to roll a ret paladin I say this: Don't let all the snide remarks discourage you -- there's greatness in being a ret -- you just gotta chew through all the naysayers, find some cool guys and prove that you are a worthy ally.
Thanks for your vid, Esfand.
Cheers,
Kavain
Its the same with as Feral druids. First they hated on me in Raids, later they didnt want to raid without me.
Respec to heal or out of my raid.
@@burgui5267 I would't want to raid with someone with your attitude.
@@bobthebomb6498 This, this is why I want to try classic, people actually play together, no matter the spec, no matter everything, just a bunch of people playing the game together. Hope I'll find good guild, where I can play spec that I want.
@@poorpriest4549 Best wishes mate. WoW is a game and is supposed to be fun. Fun can be "try hard" or a bunch of level 1's trying to down Hogger. I hope you find your guild and a good group of friends to run with.
/respect for all ret pallies out there !
love the vid !
Ret pally from Vanilla till Legion :)
Alex Deason same but really considering changing for vanilla
Thankyou Esfand, you fullfilled my dream back in the days where i was mocked when i want to play ret pally.
I like raiding as a healer because I don't have to spend any money on consumables, and then I just use that gear in PvP after raids for fun. 20/0/31 and 33/0/18 were beautifully versatile specs. Both specs could heal very well in PvE and were arguably the best healers in PvP. Those 2 specs were also great in 1v1 dueling, or helping your friends level in various dungeons by mass pulling everything and aoe the mobs with consecration/retribution aura while healing yourself in between. I was a miner/engineer and didn't spend much time farming ore to sell, so being able to save money on consumables and respecting between PVP and PvE builds was the best thing I could ask for hah
Esfand thank you so much for this old school content, always loved the vids
On second thought, lets not go to Camelot. Tis a silly place..
Can you do a video about prepping for a raid, world buffs, elixirs, and consums, and then show an example of a boss fight and when to use consums?
Great idea! We will be doing this soon :)
Now we just need one of these for Classic.
are you guys gonna go for grand marshal?
This will be now really usefull to know when Classic servers announced.
I felt like sharing my two cents on this guide, and I hope you don't mind. I've been raiding for the past 5months as a retri paladin on Darrowshire, and I notice a lot of similarities between us.
I started off thinking that everyone was going to be right, and that retri paladin was going to suck, and so I decided to try it out myself. At first it seemed like everyone was wrong, since I was topping the meters in dungeons. Sadly, the dungeons in Vanilla are a poor representation of what paladins can and cannot do. There is no denying that retri paladins are indeed capable in dungeons, as demonstrated in your video, and I am well aware of it from personal experience.
I could sit here and type for over an hour in regards to certain abilities that paladins use, such as seal of command, and how its intricate's work. But there are a few important things to mention, and one of them would be the use of -> seal of crusader. It's not ideal and most often the serious guilds will ban the use of it until the ZG patch comes along. This is due to the debuff slots being limited to 8, which means that those 8 slots are priorities by important debuff slots that increase the overall damage of a raid.
This is why you usually don't see every dot class putting up their own crappy debuffs, such as hunters serpent sting... well, you get the point. So with judged effect of seal of crusader out of the window, it means that your dps will go down. Sure, we could sit here and actually bash the effectiveness of the judged effect, but it's a loss to your dps regardless.
Next is the gearing. If you take your time to thoroughly search through your item list in raids, you will quickly come to realize that the itemzation for retri paladin sucks ass. Tier 1 and 2 are plagued until ZG patch rolls out, since they're stuck with +bonus healing. In ZG it turns into spell damage, which helps, but the tier sets are still pretty bad.
I was rocking 38% crit chance on my pre-raid paladin (stacked with buffs, and aura's such as feral druid crit) - it was amazing since my up time for vengeance was 70-75% in raids. The problem was, when everyone else was improving their gear, I was stagnant. The whole molten core raid provides barely any upgrades to your set (apart from a new main hand weapon and perhaps 2 other worth while items) - the rest of it either sucks or isn't available to you.
Onyxia provides nothing, apart from perhaps the Necklace that might be worth your time. Blackwing lair that is set to release on your realm in a few months? - the same thing happens there as it does with MC. The gear overall is garbage and tier 2 is not a lot better than tier 1, and tier 1 is shiet for retri paladins.
The conclusion is that everyone else will begin to out-gear you, and until ZG comes along, you'll notice that your position in the DPS meter will not even be top 10. If you happen to be top 10 in raids, then something is wrong. Either the other dps is slacking, undergeared or they just simply suck and need to be replaced. Anyone serious with Vanilla will eventually come around to realize that retri paladins aren't all that great.
When the gates of ahn'qiraj open up, you will see things change quite a bit. But realistically speaking, that is MANY, MANY months off from the realm that you're currently playing on.
Another thing that is worth mentioning, is that retri paladins are AMAZING at keeping up the debuff for Nightfall (Axe is released in BWL patch) - it took me over 1,000 gold to craft my own, since my guild didn't want to fund me at the time, which sucked major balls. But once I had it crafted, I realized that seal of command is garbage with Nightfall.
I could explain the in depth details as to why, but believe me, the seal called: SoR is a lot better than command for keeping Nightfall up. Not to mention that the pre-patch version of Nightfall Axe is weak as fuck, which means that you're forced to go SoR either way. Problem with SoR is that again... you can't get any decent amount of spell power until ZG, which means that your SoR is garbage until then.
Three weeks ago, my guild killed Ragnaros for the 20th time or so (lost count now) - but finally the legendary piece dropped. After 5 months of auto-attacking with a wet noodle weapon, I thought to myself "finally I can switch" - but I decided to pass on it. I am currently the only Nightfall carry in my guild, and between a Retri paladin and other classes, well... our class reigns supreme as Nightfall users, if we accept the fact that we must use SoR with it.
Simple math of increased raid DPS is pretty huge, when you count the average caster amount in your raid (13-15) x 15%. It's a huge dps increase to your overall raid if you proc the weapon, and manage to keep it up for lengthy periods of time. Thus, you're far from useless, even if your dps is shiet, because of the Nightfall axe.
Getting quite tired of typing now, and I am sure you're tired of reading this. But one last thing - most vanilla bosses are assholes towards melee. Molten core is plagued with bosses that simply aren't melee friendly, and since retri paladins are inherently a BURST dps spec, it means you suffer the most from down times such as: Baron Geddon, or Shazzrah. Even Golemagg and Garr. Arguably Magmadar too. Half of Molten Core alone is a jerk towards retri paladins, and it doesn't always get better from there.
Long live retri paladins though! - Huzzah!
Edit:I'm sorry for the slight misinformation in this post, and that's the tier 2 change. It doesn't happen until later patches, so it remains garbage even longer. I believe that it is "possible" to get almost a full suit of armor that is directed towards pure physical damage (if you ignore the hit cap of 8%) - (aka, getting almost a full suit of pure warrior gear) - that's how bad retri paladin gear really is until AQ40.
The issue is maintaining the hit-cap requirement, and it means you'll have to fight better dps classes for important/vital pieces of equipment. They won't be happy about it, and unless you're on very good terms with a guild that you're in, it'll result in people being pissed off at the fact that a retri paladin is getting important items over them.
The main issue with pure physical gear, is that you've got a really crappy mana pool, and you'll blow OOM very quickly. Stacking consumables to off-set this is fine to some degree on fights that are quick and easy (most of molten core) and parts of BWL. But the mana issue will remain an annoying problem until AQ40.
After my first MC as melee, I shelved my rogue. Went back to ranged never to look back
Didn't want to respond to this until later into Vanilla, but you can see in the streams that we have not been having the same experience
Hopefully you're still around to ask, but how does the PvP gear stack against the MC/BWL gear? I'm OK with being crap DPS because I'm not huge on topping the meters. I see the benefits of buffs and utility and the use of Nightfall to increase raid DPS and progression. In addition, PvE is a great outlet for PvP gear which is what I thoroughly enjoy the most and as Ret, you can maintain a PvP/PvE spec simultaneously! Heck, I'd even be willing to roll 31/0/20 for Holy with ret capabilities as that can do well in PvP. It's a chunk of material to read, but any honest opinions would be appreciated.
I want to apologies for the longest delay in my reply. Now about your question about the pvp gear - if you're refering to the rank 14 items, then I'd say they're equal to BWL gear or even better. The unfortunate part of the pvp gear is that it's stagnant and it remained as such since it's release, while the pve scene kept growing all the up untill Naxxramas.
So which ever classic realm that you're playing on, you're going to eventually get outgeared from the PvE players once they reach AQ40 and Naxx. On that note though, you'll be more than capable of destroying people with the rank 14 items in pvp.
Dps wise though, you're always going to be average at best.
Did you use rank 5 SoC and rank 1-2 consc? Also time your judgements for only when you have vengence procs? Did you judge often as possible as another way to keep your vengence procs up?
If you were going oom try deranking SoC, because judging on rotation, as a second means of vengence procs is more important than the dmg over short term.
Stacking stre is the most effective method.. as most of your dmg is white hits.. not SoC procs or vengence.. not crit. aim for as much AP as possible! If you have mana issues..
try get some Mp5 items.. Mp5 is always nice for vanilla paladin.. dont stack int its useless.. if you want stack anything stack Mp5. and im not even going to talk about SotR.. its good for wep speed 2h 2.20-2.70 maximum. and never stack SP gear on melee.. did you do that in TBC NO!
the judgement of the crusader doesnt increase your damage to every judgement, its only when you judgement off of a seal of the crusader. since you are only using command, you are getting nothing for those 3 talent points, unless you are seal swapping for the extra holy damage.
For somebody who has been playing Paladin for 20 years, Esfan sure seems to know very little about the class.
I think you meant to say judging off of SoR, but still, this can't be right. The talent points maybe don't make it that much stronger, but Def judge crusader if the raid will allow it on bosses.
2020 raiding classic as ret, MC and will BWL and my guild rocks 3 rets, we do on pair with some rogues and mages + auras, buffs, off heals.
one of the best videos about Paladin life lol
The opening sound to this video reminded me of a sound clip from Dark Age of Camelot. Did you play?
Nevermind...of course it is.
Shame Esfand is too busy gaming so he doesn't respond to these.
Mythic intro? Damn dude, you play DAoC? Respect!
Flicker455 where it all began :D
Thumbs up I really learned something for paladins from you guys and got inspired to roll one, see you on Elysium PvP - Lionsong lvl 24 Human Pally.
Thanks for the epic video, I loved it. BTW who edited this, I recognize that FATE music @ 3:05 ;)
Haha thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
that Dark Age of Camelot intro ;p
:)
Great video guys.. keep going!
Not sure if you are still checking these comments,. but do you know how HoW should work, when does it actually reset auto swing. Feels like it is barely worth using because not too much damage, and just fucks swingtimer (atleast on my server atm).
Plz re-do video
Should have just said "Have Heart"
So when is there an appropriate situation to use Seal of Crusade out of curiosity?
What addon shows the health and spellcasting above the mobs`?
What's up Classic?!
Does this video apply to classic as well or just Nost servers?
The paladin cope is so strong in this
Why Spiritual Focus?
Isn't it better to deal 15% plus damage judging Seal of Righteous? Or the extra intellect so you can critical more often with Judgement and Consecration and obtain Vengeance?
Consecration doesn't crit, Judgement is based off of melee crit, and you're not using seal of righteousness in a command build. However, if you look in Part 2, I talk about taking Divine Intellect as an alternative, this was a build for early on in the server. The current build I'm using now uses the variation of Part 2.
I'm thinking about making a new updated PvE Guide with my current setup.
Lol thanks for the fast reply
Hahaha np :)
:) And also how do you know that Judgement is bases of melee crit? I mean where can I check this things?
Esfand Could you answer me please? I can't find any info TT
Thanks for this good ol' video! I have always been Horde since vanilla, and now my friends are going for Alliance in Classic. That kinda takes away my whole excitement for playing classic. Classic for me is The Barrens, Silverpine Forrest, you know? And worst of all, I just can't find myself ever feel connected to a Human Warlock, a Gnome Mage etc. But Ret Paladin? Now this is the class I always hated the most(comming from Horde), and that oddly makes me more interested in trying one. Worried they would suck and all though, made me not really consider it........... until i found Your channel. Been plowing through various of vids now and I think I am gonna do it! Become that bastard Ret Paladin who noone likes, not in PvP and not in raids since "ret sucks" :P Thank You for this inspiration!
4 years later, how did things turn out for you? Did you enjoy ret? I think it's a "love it or leave it" kind of thing. Idk why, but even when Paladins are objectively boring to play, I never get tired of them. Probably made 4 or so since Classic came out, lol.
Pls make a new updated video for the summer realease :)
Im play ret paladin now. I have put point in Seal of Righteousness in holy tree and it say it shall do more dps like 9% now. Way shall i not put in this or have you forgote this? Becuse way shall i put in seal of cruseder instad? Becuse you not use seal of cruseder rigth
@esfand can you make a pally leveling guide?? I don't see much from that and I'd like to see one. Plzz
what's the name of the addon that lets you track when your auto attack will be used ? also what is the name of the addon that lets you track your threat ?
Played Paladin in Vanilla and had all that delicious stuff - AQ40 + PvP-Set was pretty rediculous :D Playing a Shockadin was pretty awesome too (with full T2). But in raid i still ran as a semi-priest ;D
Honestly I mean the swap to a shockadin even in current classic and I feel its the real way to go still going some ret for seal of command but holy shock adds a much needed dps skill to a pally's rotation that its hard not to run it in pvp, I'd probably say for straight dps on boss full ret is most likely the way to go since its got more sustainable dps with vengeance and sanc aura but shockadins are 100% better for pvp where the 30 sec timer on holy shock isn't a big deal as you'll have it up going into each new fight, the hit damage might look alot weaker but you aren't rng heavy hoping for a crit to actually smack someone, it makes a far more consistent burst dps you can combo favor and shock for a 100% crit with shock or use favor to drop a fat heal saving mana and time since you won't need to cast double holy lights to top off health a holy light crit does that work and you get the mana back letting you retaliate against people trying to bandage or break combat while you are healing in bubble. I can't wait to see how it performs in full T2 definitely going to leave full rets in the dust by that point and lets not forget the ability to be flexible and heal effectively to keep someone low health alive. Honestly the mana refund on heal crits does wonders for mana mangement I even take benediction when goin into the ret tree making me a whole lot better on mana then my pally was full ret since it was normal affair to after being pushed to bubble i'd basically come out bone dry on amana as 2 holy lights is almost 1k manage which made up a sizable chuck of my mana pool and between consecrate and recasting seals after a judgement you burn through mana rather quick, and shockadin can mitigate that with mana refunds on heals. Personally I feel like a spelladin should be a shockadin since they're the ones who will benefit the most out of a spelladin build gear wise.
What kinda addon you have to show 'DPS in party? mine dont seem to work.
ive seen someone use a similar talent setup and went one hander/off hand item. did insane dps for van days as pally.
Dudes,
Not sure if you are watching the comments for this vid still but I have a question on the coming official re release of vanilla. I was young in the original vanilla days and played several classes none of which were paladin. I have played and loved ret paladin pretty much every xpansion since and that is truly what I want to play when vanilla rereleases through blizzard. My question to you is, do you think the dps that you can make possible on elysium will be relative when it comes out, or do you think that the dps will be lower or perhaps significantly lower than that it is on your current ps? I am raiding with a big group of friends who are all pretty hardcore. While I know they wont care of I do this and am a little behind, I dont think they will be happy if the dps is looking horrific. Again I want to play rets, but I have hesitations due to what APPEARS to be the limitations of the class via the current posts I read...
Paladins are pretty much guaranteed to be worse off than "pure" classes just due to how they scale with gear. Pally dps is based on procs and crits, which is bad in pve unless they have adjusted threat tables, or you'll be pulling threat off of tanks. From what I understand, Classic will release the upper level raids and instances in waves. Since itemization was garbage through much of WoW, Ret Paladins are going to struggle to fight over gear with Warriors and the Paladin's early sets were kinda weird as they hadn't actually fleshed out what endgame roles were going to be. Ret best bet would be PVP sets unless they release updated gear in the 5 mans that was better than MC drops. Until AQ comes out anyway.
Are you guys grinding UBRS? Haha i miss those 20 man runs
Thank you! I knew ret could be good if played right! Thank you for this guide!
Late comment here, but how is the scaling on Lightbringer server? Does ret do less dmg there as well?
Old Esfand, FeelsGoodMan
What happened to Drakova's guides for different speccs? Particularly the holy reckoning video!
Can somebody help me out with healing pally gearing guide I can't seem to find a good one anywhere
Hand of Justice + Ironfoe and some unique offhand, what are your opinions?
I can't understand why but I want to roll paladin for classic. But some reason after hearing how bad its perceived I'm rethinking it. Idk I plan on being a casual player maybe Id be better off doing something else
play what you like. better than playing an effective class you don't like
I’ve been playing classic lately and I’m enjoying it a lot but I get the stigma totally I swear every time I’m in a group and need on crit gear someone gets upset
Legend.
what addons would you suggest downloading and using for vanilla?
so if we in MC should we use Crusader or never use ?
Having goblin engineering is also a must.
For PvE DPS wouldnt more int be better than the push back on heal? since your not healing or being hit...for the most part?
yeah the intellect makes more sense im sure i'll roll that
I appprecaite your approach to immersion. Play what you like
I'm just getting back into vanilla after not playing since BC, so I'm rusty as hell and never played paladin at all. Is this a hard spec to run?
how is improved blessing of might any good? 5 talent points for an additional 20AP?
20 AP comes out to 5.43 damage on a 3.8 speed weapon so it's like having an extra +5 damage enchant on your weapon
my guild leader is a prot paladin and he got thunderfury 2 days ago:) im gonna upload the vid soon if u wanna see
We know about Killerduki :-) Congratz. TF opens lots of windows for prot and holy. We will check it out :-)
Can you do a rest rek video there’s no good ones
Fight the stigma man. I remember playing Ret paladin in Vanilla WoW and luckily I never directly have to deal with the stigma. I remember the occasional snubbing at lower levels ,fast forward, I was a strong ret paladin in the top 5 for 40 man dps charts with my soulforge armor and Earthshaker hammer from Molten Core. We got buffs, and I remember being able to just destroy mobs. I will never not play a ret paladin, I enjoy it just way too much.
the reason people hate ret paladins is not because they suck, it's because they are jealous that you have consecration and they do not. (even though consecration burns through mana like a mother)
I love this man
this is trippy esfand and future esfand after two strokes made a dps guide!? 😲🤯🤣
You do a lot less dmg on the other private servers? So which one is blizz like? As far as how we should expect it to be when blizzard releases classic servers
None of them are perfect but Light's Hope is probably the closest one. Talk about Elysium in the video, but Light's Hope/LIghtbringer is old Elysium
I've watched this over and over. Both the video series. So helpful. I'm not maxed but I rarely get beat in dps atm. I haven't invested in benediction yet but I'm getting too that point soon.
Your comment on judging on CD has me intrigued. I do oom on larger pulls so I want too get this right... I judge SoC on CD only when mobs are still at higher HP, and when I know I won't be switching targets to judge SoCru. Is this the correct way to go about that (using "critical thinking" as a dps player) or should I just forget SoCru judge all together? Mind you at my level trash mobs stay up a decent amount of time. Usually two-three SoC judges.
Also I'm just now using pummler atm so should I just seal SoCru and judge SoC on stun CD until I grab a slower weapon? Sometimes I'll just swap to my Verigan to use SoC instead. Would like to know these sort of lowbie/leveling tips. I have not done much testing with this theory yet as I just got the pummler today.
Ya the manual crowd pummeled is too fast for ret paladins. Stick with verigans until bone biter.
Great video. Remember throw heals on ragnaros.
Sorry for cry but i play holy pally because my guild doesn't let any pally get dps gear in raids that none else needs without wasting your dkp. Also pally needed truestrike shoulders and won against my warrior roll. That guy quit on the server and didn't raid any else than ZG. Still i don't have truestrikes on warrior but any way server has died and i have moved to another place.
EDIT: however, my guild had ret paladin who sucked so bad always at bottom in meters. No dispells on chromaggus.
Makes me wanna play wow again
some nice info here .. im play on Northdale and i chose paladin
how come ret does more dmg on elysium then kronos? whats the difference?
Vengeance and SOC working like must work, in Kronos it didn't work.
Hey mate, what a auto-attack bar? What a addon
why did you go for Spiritual Focus and not Divine Intellect? you need int for mana and SF is only for healers. and Repetence is completely useless you should have put that point on Benediction.
Watch Volume 2 :-P
I explain it a little bit better there. This build was better for when I had just hit 60 and was doing more 5-mans.
3:04 Gear
Why not 5/5 Int? Just curious...I'm unapologetically ret for years, and leveling one on Anathema right now. Also, I'm not using imp Crusader right now (for leveling) - but come 60, I feel like this spec is the play db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#sE0zZxhZEf0tbcq...am I crazy? Love the video. +1
Check out Volume 2 :)
Swing and a miss on my part. Guess I better keep watching to learn how to swing it lol. Thanks! I thought I was crazy putting 5/5 Int and 5/5 Benediction. Gotta relearn my rotations now...
can you give some tipp and trick about PvP ? btw nice vid!
why did Drakova remove his channel? :C
How about dps against raid bosses? I mean trash is trash, but if you can't deliver on a boss fight, it's kinda difficult to get raid spots. I really want to make it into raids as a ret paladin. Also, what server you're on and how does it handle the math? I'm already planning ahead for the official Blizzard Classic servers, now that they're a thing, and many private servers have custom math for paladin spells, like AP scaling for spells that never had any in retail vanilla etc, so I'd like to judge viability. For example, on Nostalrius, Consecrate scaled with your AP and Seal of Crusader never lowered your Swing-Damage while still increasing your Swing speed, which made paladins absolutely nuts when it came to DPS, but none of those glitches is going to be on the official servers.
khatack you can’t compete on boss damage, it’s complete shit dps
I'm in this video
I wouldn't agree about ret paladins being the only class that needs Two handed melee weaps though. Theres a fury warrior in my guild with hand of rag that absolutely destroys meters. Respect to ret paladins though of course. They need 2 handers too.
Chug Chug Chug Chug!
Just inspired me to roll a ret pally
Could I get your addons, please?
you should spec eye for a eye. IT Will proc vengeance on crit. also u Will do more dps with some spell power
PS check out my Retri vids
As far as I know, spells from mobs can't crit.
I always thought that in Vanilla, Retties did great for ... 5 seconds and then Mana became Myth and Legend and spoken only in whispers. So how the Hell did you keep your Mana so well-maintained?
I drink mana pots like an alcoholic :-P
Thanks for the reply Esfand. I ran Holy PvP on one server and an MS Warrior on another server back in the day. Ret had some nice changes in Vanilla, but they were almost always nerfed right after because the burst potential was so huge. I like the idea of Ret being viable pre-2.1.0 Horde but the hoops and hahs you have to go through just to KEEP at it make the spec just damn EXPENSIVE and a chore to maintain over, say, a Rogue or a Warlock or even a Hunter.
Still, you look like you got pockets deep enough to play it well enough, so good on you. Keep swinging.
We have 3 rets in the raid, although there's only one true ret in vanilla xD
DAoC intro sound interesting!
That reed drop tho.
I'm rolling a ret paladin in PvE darrowshire ELYSIUM server. Doing good atm, I'm never at bottom of dps and my talents are almost as yours. I don't understand that estigma, Palas do good
Holy paladin took a bunch of ret gear from me for his off-spec gear... I was ret and TANKING lol. Shit shoulda been minnnee 😂
Is this private server ?
please do kronos! oh n drakova wheres the trance montages at boy!
Get em ret them bro.
So why is the server that you are on, that allows paladins to do a lot of damage, the one that is not the badly scripted one? I noticed you kept repeating that the other servers were badly scripted, like someone went, "Oops i fumbled the script. I guess Paladins suck now." What if your server is the badly scripted one? Because that stigma was there when Vanilla was retail and they wouldn't be badly scripted. I guess we will find out if Paladins really could do the dps when Classic comes out.
Whelps in MC?
He meant in Ony I think. -Drakova
19 Agi to 1% melee crit, unless its different on elysium
It's 20, it was 20 in retail vanilla too
@@EsfandTV idk why its been 7 yrs and i never said "oh thank you"
While playing as you like is great, Paladins will never be as good as other classes due to the toolset available. In Vanilla, they simply don't scale well even through Naxx, and at the end of vanilla, were the best single target healers in the game. At least they weren't as bad off as hunters, which hardly increased in dps power compared to all the other classes from mc thru naxx and have no other role.
Old esfand Pog
For those who think Ret can be a viable dps spec, look at this: legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=28873&exp=0&upl=45169
ret guide: go to the character selection screen, click on your ret, click on delete, confirm by clicking YES
So Esfand has arguably BiS for ret paladin and an ashkandi and he is only ever pulling 200-300 dps and is only ever #10-7 on the damage meter. I suspect he doesnt show other team mates in his actual dps meter because they would probably show 400-600 dps at least and that does not look good. I wanted ret paladins to work as much as anyone, I loved the class ever since I started playin in Wrath, but its sad to say it doesnt look viable at all in vanilla. And Esfand gave me false hope that it would work. I mean if I farmed pre raid BiS on a ret paladin and only pull what? 100-200 dps at most? Jesus i would feel terrible spending 100g per raid on consumables and getting dusted by a rogue or warrior that spends perhaps 10g. The light and how to swing it series is seriously misleading and it should start off with the disclaimer: You will never beat warriors, rogues, mages, or warlocks unless they are lazy and/or clueless; you will only ever be able to maybe compete with hunters in dps and they have arguably more utility than you (and most raids only ever want one). Esfand is trying to make it seem like Ret can be viable, it is not. I talked to someone from raid three because i was curious as to how an actual raiding guild feels about a ret paladin and after fangirling over Esfand for a minute he (anonymous Raid Three guildie) explained to me that Raid Three is not a competitive raiding guild, but a "meme spec guild that has fun" and lets things like feral kitty dps and boomkins into their ranks. At least I wised up to this before I went all the way to 60 on my paladin. Hopefully others will see this and not waste their time on a ret paladin if their true goal is good dps and feeling satisfied with their performance. Esfand won't respond to this, there is nothing he can say other than that I and other nay sayers are actually correct. I wish Ret paladins worked, but sadly they dont as evidenced by this BiS paladin doing 300 dps max.
He says in the video that he plays it because he enjoys it, not because it’s easy to get top dps.
If your goal is to stroke you little epeen by topping the meters, then play an easy dps class like warrior, rogue or mage.
It’s true, and btw a Hunter does twice the dps Ret does lmfao.
Can pal actually compete in dps race? I heard stories of some ret pal getting #3 spot on some elysium server, or mb nost) i might be wrong)
Yeah they do pretty good on Elysium.
you know... palatanks can also compete when they have agro gear and lots of trashmobs. healers may hate it, but tanking more then one enemy was never so easy :)
and yeah its realy funny to overwhelm mages and other aoe classes in some encounters xD
Mage
MOAR Water!!!
Dude are you breaking all the rules and doing this?
still waiting on part 2
Hello? Its out for 3 years already. ruclips.net/video/pKvd-Ahwib0/видео.html