I know what you are saying is true, as I wake up late and roll over to hear your message. Then I ask God to bring me safely through surgery in the morning. I ask others to pray for me. I am so undeserving. "Lord, help me, to put you first and be solid. "
My wife and I ran an in home fellowship in our home for 8 years. Everything said this gentleman is true. Acts has so many answers. It's the transition from the law to grace.
To many conventional churches have weakened the doctrine to the point of just being nice to everyone. They don't preach the word of God any more. I get more out of the weekly bible study group, because we are all serious about it. There's often only 8 of us there.
Yes, home church (or the church that meets in someone’s house) is the biblical idea to emphasize that church are the people gathering at a home and is not the gathering place. Micro church is the new marketing name.
@@damaj6222 Yeah, I almost detoured away from "microchurch" because of the abuse of church marketing in the church growth movement, but then it made sense because it's not really necessary to gather in a home or house. I call it whatever makes sense in the moment. But yes, it's the people!
I have been listening to many like you who speak of "home church" instead of the conventional church. The more I hear from people like you and others, the more I am getting convicted about what a biblical church should be today. Thank you.
Thank you sooo much for this video! I have gone to conventional church for 45 years and wicked and/or incompetent professional preachers. I'm fed up with it. I'd like to learn more about microchurches.
I have been looking for a biblical house church in New Zealand for six years and found one. It is the greatest blessing. Thanks for this encouraging video.
So just start inviting people to a meal etc Just start getting to gether. Its guru that want u to attend their function lol My older grandmother had NOT attended for yrs ( grsndfathers were both killed ) Had held to belief of Isrsel becoming a nation again( after the Balfour British declaration in 1918 ) yrs later my younger grndmother from Ukraine ( after WW2) was then looking after the older. ( my dad outlived my mother half dad's age ) The 2 grandmothers held "house church" Neighbours all knew. German / Ukrainina grandmother occasionally went with us to the city ( later better psved roads) went to " German speaking function" ( Luthrrian congregation)my parents went to an " evangelcial congrgation" But we had functions in the farm community. The RC were the only ones that insisted in their RC Mass. With a "priest at the parish" Others went were ever Their were JW too. But they were " more seperate" ( i even went there as teenager few times. Yeh debated with them too. SDA were at s farm in the valley ( worked for hwy dept on Sunday - they had Sat Sabbath off. - hey learnt more riding horses with SDA. Lol. Learnt from Greeks when butcher lambs. For Passover some Jewish people too. Had even gone to Jewish Synoque. Learnt studied various things. Life is school. Peter got out of the boat. 1 403 830 4124 Cslgary Ab Cdn.
@AlanWolf-d7l yes, just start. Do Acts 2:42, and devote yourself to the apostles' teaching (reading the scriptures and talking about them), fellowship (caring for each other, sharing life together), eating together, and praying together.
I've just started reading a book called "Pagen Church" (or something similar). It talks about doing a "microchurch" of believers meeting in their homes. I think that's what the apostles did. I am open to hearing what the Holy Spirit is saying to me and at times I feel that I should leave the traditional church.
Many have been influenced by Frank Viola's book "Pagan Christianity." He does have something good to say. But I personally believe that we can embrace the simpler church model without demonizing traditional churches as much as he does. If God does lead you to leave your conventional church setting and explore the simpler model, my counsel is to do it without condemnation. We are all building on the foundation of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 3). God will judge how we build. Sometimes I think people in the housechurch movement become hypercritical of their brothers and sisters who, for whatever reason, remain in fellowship in more conventional churches. Peace to you as you discern.
@NTChurchStudies Thanks. I will. But I also like to hear what/how people hear. How would you explain the biggest take aways from his teachings in your own words, like the top two or three points he makes?
I was in a small housechurch and it went pearshaped because the leader a so called prophet had issues from childhood and teenage years that were not resolved. The result was awful, control, manipulation and judemental attitudes. I finally left and joined a charasmatic Anglican church with about 50 or so parishoners. It is awesome, there is no show and people are used according to their gifts, but also there is still some structure to the service. This church is smazing, i has a secong hand shop that gives alot of money away to missions and good causes. A church is big enough to carry out missions work. This church also has a youth outreach on friday nights which has sometimes 40 teenagers who attend. Honestly inn the small house church i was in i didnt get to do the things in. God that i am doing now. God bless you guys though, it works for you, but there are also congretations out there that are really good as well.
Been attending micro church for about 3 years now, involved in worship, but struggling with the lack of accountability of leadership and a spirit of control creeping in. Also a lack of discernment when inviting strangers in who then cause harm to the other attendees. It sometimes feels like a micro cult more than micro church. Am taking a break from it, but am getting questioned about my lack of commitment. I' m not sure what to do going forward.
Thanks for speaking up. I'm interested in what feels like a lack of accountability and a spirit of control. If it's about what to do when (practical matters like when and where to meet, or what songs to sing), that's one thing. If it's about enforcing one understanding of the scriptures (theology, doctrine, dogma), that's another. Some people have very strong convictions about what house church should and shouldn't look like. Sometimes they are the leaders. Other times they are not. But I've known people to part ways over what I would consider practical matters that Would you say it's more practical or theological? As for inviting strangers in, that's fraught with opportunity for good and bad. We need to do it as a matter of Christian hospitality and evangelism/discipleship, but how much do we filter out those who don't fit? Do we let them self-filter? Or do we ever tell people "You're not welcome here"? Of course, if someone is causing harm to others it needs to be addressed directly. What sort of harm?
@@simplerfaith Okay, I'll try to unpack my loaded comments in the most concise way I know how. Firstly, the lack of accountability and possibly the control thing refers to when the founder and leader of the fellowship makes arbitrary decisions for the others without consultation, and when asked why the decision was made states that it is for the greater good. This doesn't actually answer the question of why though. For example, the leader (who has a real heart for the lost, and rightly so) has a desire to pursue wider (meaning global) evangelism which will take him away from the fellowship and the midweek discipleship and prayer meetings often. So he nominated another person in the fellowship to lead those groups in his absence even though this person is not experienced in this, is relatively new to the group, has many personal issues that need ministering to, and really isn't ready for such responsibility. This has proven to be problematic as the four new believers in the fellowship have struggled with the transition to the new leader and have found his approach harsh, judgemental and quite upsetting to them. When this was brought to the attention of the leader of the fellowship he just responded that the man has to learn, but I would ask at what price? Three of these vulnerable ones have sadly left the fellowship because they have been hurt and their genuine grievances have not been addressed, nor has the substitute leader been properly equipped and prepared for his new role, never mind the fact that he has his own hurts and concerns that he hasn't had ministry for. There is so much more I could add but I have made this long enough already. As for inviting strangers in I completely agree with what you say. My concern is that in our fellowship the doors of every group, even intercessory prayer is thrown open to anyone who wants to attend. We have had issues with some individuals trying to control and direct the prayer away from the Lord's agenda to their own, or to another spirit. One individual came for about six months, attended every meeting and made themselves indispensable, only to quietly try and seduce certain other individuals behind the scenes. When one of the new believers saw what was going on they called them out on it, the person became offended, ranted and raved and subsequently left, never to return. These are just a couple of examples of what I was alluding to. I don't wan't to sound unkind or ungrateful. I really love these guys, but I am struggling to know what to do about staying or going, because the leader of the fellowship is not someone who is easy to speak with. I feel torn to be honest. Could just do with some advice.
@@ziggysam6139 An unhealthy group doesn't just gradually get healthy without intentionality. But it can get healthy. Are your gatherings Leader Focused or Conversation Focused? Leader Focused might be like a small version of conventional church where people gather, sing songs that someone like you pick, and then everyone listens to the leader teach a lesson or something. It can include discussion afterward, but everything is focused on and directed by a person who leads the group. Conversation Focused has a leader who facilitates things, but their most observable role is to ask really good, probing questions and make sure everyone is involved. Of course they have opportunity to teach in those conversations, but the dynamic of the group is different. Leader Focus is not wrong. But Conversation Focused tends to struggle less with power dynamics because the nature of it is that everyone is participating. How would you describe your group? As for the seduction and all that, it's unacceptable. Doesn't even need much more comment than that. Good for them for calling it out, and it's good the offender left. Call it good, consider it done. It may be symptomatic of the greater problem (that you're describing with the leader), in which case it makes sense to work with the leader. If you want to have a private conversation about all this, email me at roger@x242.net.
I used to go to a home church as they called it but turned out to be more of a cult and lots of control issues and yes these people started this cause they had issues with accountability in a larger community and was the blind leading the blind.
I go to a small parish in a liturgical tradition. There's certainly no "show." The liturgy makes sure of that. Through the liturgy I actively participate with my brothers and sisters in the worship of the Lord Jesus. During the week there are small groups that meet in each other's homes for further reflection on Scripture by reading the lessons appointed for the upcoming Sunday. This prepares us to actually engage with the homily given by our priest. Before the service all ages meet for Bible study. I guess my point is that, if you are going to a church that is a "show" there are other alternatives than a microchurch that give you the best of both worlds.
@@SmartestDumbGuy Your question springs from a common misperception and I can tell it's sincere so I want to respond but I'm pretty busy right now. I'll get back to you. In the meantime just recognize that the English word "liturgy" comes from the Greek word for "work of the people."
@@SmartestDumbGuy Let me try to answer your question by describing the church service I attended last Sunday. We began by standing and singing the hymn “Rejoice, rejoice believers!” which emphasized one of the upcoming readings from Scripture. After the hymn, the priest invited us to kneel with him to confess our sins to the Almighty. We did this silently and then joined in praying out loud a well-known prayer that begins, “Almighty and most merciful Father; We have erred, and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep” (see Isaiah 53:6). After that the priest reminded us that God “desireth not the death of a sinner” and declared God’s willingness to “pardon and absolve all those who truly repent” followed by the people reciting the Lord’s Prayer. Next, the priest, using an ancient call and response from Psalm 51 (Priest: O Lord, open thou our lips. People: And our mouth shall show forth thy praise) then invited us to praise God. We then stood and read out loud Psalm 95 using a plainsong chant. Remaining standing, the priest led us in a recitation of Psalm 80. After the Psalm we sat and listened to one of our layreaders read a portion of Paul’s letter to the Philippians. We responded to the reading by standing and chanting a portion of the prayer of Azaraiah. Next we sat for the second reading, this one from the gospel of John and responded by standing and chanting Psalm 100. Here we got to rest a little bit and sat to listen to the priest offer his remarks on the scripture readings. Because the lectionary lets us know in advance what the readings are going to be many of us had met on a previous weeknight to read them aloud and reflect on them ourselves. This helps us to better consider what the priest presents in his homily. At the end of the homily we stood and recited the Apostles’ Creed which summarizes the essential facts of our Trinitarian faith. Then we knelt and the priest offered prayers on behalf of our country, Christ’s church, and “all sorts and conditions of men.” Although we were silent, because these prayers were prepared in advance we were able to mentally pray along with the priest and were not passive listeners. We then joined in the General Thanksgiving in which we gave thanks to God “for all thy goodness and loving-kindness to us, and to all men…” At this point we knelt for the prayers of Holy Communion. The priest offered the prayers of consecration of the bread and wine after which we all prayed the prayer of Humble Access (“We do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies…” After receiving Communion we prayed the Great Thanksgiving. The priest then prayed that our “hearts and minds [remain] in the knowledge and love of God” and asked God’s blessing on us. We stood to sing the recessional, “Rejoice, the Lord is King!” The priest encouraged us to “go forth in the Name of Christ” and we responded, “Thanks be to God!” This may or may not sound like something that appeals to you but I hope it answers your question and explains how our service is not just passively watching a priest say and do everything. In fact, our approach to worship, in my opinion, demands more from the congregation than in many, many other churches I’ve been to. If it sounds like a lot of arbitrary standing, kneeling, sitting it basically just follows the simple rule: stand to praise/sing, sit to be instructed, kneel to pray. It is a form of worship that fully engages the worshiper - body, mind, soul. FWIW, what I described was the service of Morning Prayer in a traditional Anglican Church in the Anglican Church in North America.
The title had me going. If you want to be cradle to the grave spiritually infantile and dependent on a self-proclaimed ordained pastor for your spiritual milk, micro church is not the place for you. If you want to remain ever emotionally susceptible to feel good messages instead of growing closer to the Lord, micro church is not the place for you. If you want to go to church as a duty instead of walking in faith as the 1st century Christians did, micro church is not the place for you.
That's all they did in the book of Acts home church every night somewhere it's better than he's mega churches or large churches that have groups to where only certain people are important and other ones are not I've been to several denominational churches several mega churches large churches and I found the best churches are under 50 people cuz everybody knows each other and care about each other
I agree chamuuemura.MOST HAVE BEEN ON MILK FOR YEARS.PAUL ADMONISHES EXCELL STILL MORE TO THE MEAT OF THE WORD..I HAVE YET TO SEE ANY SO CALLED BELIEVER WHO HASN'T GROWN SPIRITUALLY (ONLY ON MILK CONTINUALLY) HAVE ANY DISCERNMENT. I COULD GO ON AND ON.IN THE BOOK OF ACTS , THEY WERE ALL OF ONE MIND IN THE SPIRIT, THAT INCLUDES DOCTRINALLY.
You said “There was nothing to inspire” Really! Wow, the word of God is more than sufficient to truly inspire- then Prayer, the breaking of bread and the communion of the saints
Yeah, I hope it's obvious that I agree with you! What I mean is there's no program to inspire, like a motivational speech or a moving concert. The inspired word of God should be all the inspiration we need!
In seriousness,,,,The main thing to deal with is .... talkative people , who get away from biblical or spiritual edification 15 years of leading group has taught me some,,but,, i would gladly receive any tips in dealing with that issue Small group is still TOTALLY WORTH IT, THE BEST !
Yeah, conversation is messy, isn't it? Some people dominate because they have a lot to say. Others just can't help but fill in every silent nook or cranny, even if they have nothing to say. For leading people who get off topic, rather than pushing back at them to try to stop them, I try to pull them into the conversation, and to come alongside them if possible. Whatever you do, it's got to be genuine. Anything disingenuous will be smelled out. But if you're genuinely caring and interested, you can say, "Interesting thought. Let's see if that's where the scriptures lead us," and then go back to the scriptures. Or you can say, "That's a new connection for me. What about this scripture caused your mind to go there?" And of course, give them grace to say, "Yeah, I was just off on a tangent." No shame. Let everyone laugh and then get back to the scriptures. But honestly, sometimes what I think is off topic, actually connects in ways that I wouldn't have seen it! I've learned a lot by letting people talk, and asking them to make the connections that I don't think are there.
It would be interesting to find out what spirits of darkness these talkative people are dealing with...these talkative people are described in Ephesians 6:12? Sound like an antichrist spirit if they are getting away from biblical or spiritual edification... It is sad that more is not taught about the spirits of darkness, their characteristics, and how to recognize and deal with them...
Amen! Best I can tell, first century believers didn't have praise and worship teams and do worshiptainment with motivational speakers. Without being better equipped, too many are lost even in church congregations. When real persecution comes to the US like what is already occurring in other nations, how many will we have failed?
Persecution is already here in the form of pride, temptation, ego, gossip, self righteousness, etc... and we are all failing. Worrying about tomorrow's problems seems to keep us from dealing with todays personal problems.
Excuse me, sir....those are some of the manifestations and characteristics of the spirits of darkness....let me encourage you to in-depth study beginning with Eph 6:12...
Back in the late 70’s and early 80’s we believed in house church or home groups. It was a place of relationships and accountability to follow Jesus. Then as we grew we became an independent church meeting on Sundays with home groups during the week. Then what I see as the “spirit of the Pharisees” kicked in. The leadership decided they were responsible to make sure everyone did everything right and it became intrusive into individual lives.not talking normal accountability. If a person is doing things to follow Jesus because of peer pressure it is more detrimental in the long run. We have to trust in the Holy Spirit to guide each other. (And yes there is biblical precedent for rebuke but this went beyond) So finally the leadership decided they needed accountability and joined up with another group of independent churches and we lost ourselves in the worship of men and rules. Our family eventually left but we were quite damaged. My point is, I do so long for the days of home groups and intimately walking with other Christians. I have no idea how to find that. And my heart tells me that we will need this type of fellowship as the end times grow more intense. Please pray we find this again. My husband and I have been but so far have not found where the Lord wants us. But the longing in my heart for this sort of fellowship grows stronger every day. N
Our desire for simplicity coincided with becoming empty nesters. In our network, we have churches with kids and churches without. Honestly, microchurch with kids is more difficult than without. But maybe that's because most of us are used to church programs where other people take care of the kids. In microchurches you can't assign them to others. I was recently with a church where the children are asked to read the scripture ahead of time and come with a question that prompts discussion. Those kids come up with some wonderful questions.
@@alanlatta9379 The danger with the route you describe is that it can lead a group right back to becoming a traditional church (ie. obtaining a building, hiring a pastor, etc.) Not saying you are doing this but many home groups have. In my opinion the better route is start right from the start with the understanding that when the group begins getting too big to fit in a house (30 - 40 people) you split into 2 or 3 smaller groups. You can still meet all together from time to time but most gatherings will be in the smaller more intimate groups. Our group is just now beginning this division process.
@harvestvillage695 While I'm an advocate for simpler church, it's good to not go beyond what is written. Nowhere in the scriptures are we told to keep it small. We're not even told to try and strategically plant or grow churches. It's good to have a strategy and to be wise in it. But it's also good to recognize that the strategy typically includes a response to current culture and conditions, which do change.
In the home church setting like the early church did everyone was edified. Trying to remember a sermon verses a group of people studying and understanding the scriptures? It wasn’t until the mid third century that denominational congregations began. It was a wrong model and born again Christianity became weak and slow in growth. Home church is far better for spiritual growth.
Thanks for the comment. I agree with you, home church is great for spiritual growth. I personally try not to call church models right and wrong. I think tiny church is best for most things, but if a multitude wants to gather around a good teacher, or assemble to sing their prayers en masse, that's not wrong. In fact, it's good. But simpler church is better. :)
@heathers9599 I really wish I could! I have a tremor, which I'm usually able to mask, but a handheld camera really picks it up. You'll notice that I use a fixed tripod in other videos.
If heresy and apostasy were indicators of Jesus' eminent return, he would have returned in the first century. But yes, we are nearer now than ever before. We should all be ready.
Love it! Thanks for sharing! I also have a channel where I talk about this movement as well. God is doing a great work in our communities through micro churches!
That was a significant challenge for me when I left a ministry "career" to pursue this. God has been faithful. Acts 20:34 has really captured my attention in new ways. That said, I'm not crazy about the insinuation that pastors don't work. In fact, scripture likens ministry to shepherding and to the work of an ox treading out the grain. And in that context it says that it's not only *not wrong* for preachers to receive support, but that it's wrong for believers to refuse to offer it. "Those who preach the gospel should earn their living from the gospel." And "especially those whose work is preaching and teaching." I think support makes most sense when people are called to leave and take the gospel to other places. What we see in Paul and Barnabas, and later Silas, is that they preached to Jews (reached) as well as Gentiles (unreached), and were sometimes supported, and other times worked with their own hands. I think if we stopped thinking of being a local church pastor as a full time job, we would do more important things with our time. We'd see less complex programs that can be a mask for lovelessness and lack of zeal.
I really wish people would stop trying to divide the body of Christ by submitting that one way of doing church is better than another. The Lord is using large churches as well as house churches to preach and teach the Gospel to those who have ears to hear and hearts to respond. It hurts my heart to watch videos like this. Those who favor microchurches do not have a deeper understanding of discipleship. THey have a preference for how they desire to interact with other believers. I know so many people who would never choose to attend a microchurch for the very reson you said it was preferable....there is no place to hide. That is why some folks, especially those who are exploring the faith, come to a larger church in the first place. They want some anonymity. As they attend and begin to open their heart to the Word, they become more comfortable and desire to join in fellowship. Most big churches recognize the need for smaller groups. Indeed, it is a major emphasis in most. This provides a similar intimate atmosphere that microchurches offer. I sincerely prasy for God to bless you in the role He has led you. May He prosper you in every good thing. May many come to full commitment to the Savior through your approach to church. May he do the same for the portion of His Body that attracts believers and pre-believers in larger numbers to churches that make their purpose to honor the Lord, introduce people to Jesus, disciple believers into maturity, and minister to the family. May the Body of Christ be unified as we serve Him together until He returns.
I've been in denominational churches with no accountability, scholarship, with leaders who thought they were the authority. And heard of several large mainstream churches with "all the things" you mentioned still become abusive and unethical. Not sure size fixes or determines anything
@danw019 yeah, big or small, denominational or non-denom, doesn't guarantee anything positive or negative. All can go wrong but none automatically go wrong. I think there's wisdom to what we do where we're not denominational and we're not pastor centered. We share a common meal, open scripture and read it out loud, pray together, and develop friendships with each other. It's not abuse proof but we have found that it is a bit more resistant to the extremes of authoritarianism.
Further to the point that Roger made below ... it's organic. It is incumbent on all in the local gathering to pay attention and call out anything that is amiss. In that way I've seen far more accountability to the proper authority (Jesus Christ) in the past 28 years of doing house churching than I ever saw in my earlier decades of doing conventional 'church'. As for scholarship, aren't you studying scriptures and other related things constantly? Who says a person has to have a degree to be educated? That's a fine enough place to start, but you better be growing on your own with the Lord. That's a beauty of the house church model; everyone is accountable for studying all of the time, so they have something to share to help others also grow in Christ. You need to get your head out of the box and think according to Scripture. It's all there in black and white, if you care to search it out. I've seen so much more growth in the house setting than I have seen in a conventional 'church' setting, by leaps and bounds. There is so much proof of this that it cannot be denied. Worshiping or fellow-shipping with the back of someone head in front of you will not help you grow. You need the organic experiences of life-together, where you see exhortation, admonishment, encouragement, love, prayers, teaching opportunities, etcetera all lived out. That can't happen in the conventional setting.
John Fenn’s ministry was all about church homes across the world. He was told by God that it was for a time to come. The “Entertainment Chuch Complexes”will be shut down over time. God said he was removing angels from these “churches”.
Whether God is removing his angels, I'm not sure. Depending on how you read the first three chapters of Revelation, it's worthwhile speculation. I do think those churches *can* still bear fruit, but that's not always an indication of God's favor. It could just be the power of God's word. And yes, I do believe our entertainment complexes and events are generally a disgrace and will be replaced with churches meeting in homes without all the hype and fanfare.
@@ALL4SCUBA05 Others have mentioned him to me but I've never studied him. I have no reason to believe that he's not the things you say. But I am decidedly slow to accept claims of private conversations with Jesus. That doesn't mean I don't believe that God can or has or does talk to people. But there are also false prophets who claim the same thing and lead people astray. So, whatever a person claims to have heard from Jesus, I run through scripture to see if it lines up. If it does, I try to use scripture to say it, and let the visit from God be an affirmation to draw us back to the scriptures. But, like I say, I simply don't know anything about John Fenn so I don't have an opinion about what he's said. I was just commenting on what you said, and what I believe about it.
These gathering can be so difficult at times because narcissistic individuals will often rise and begin to control the group covertly through the usual manipulation of 'I think we should do this, or do that or I disagree etc etc" In my experience you will need at least two of three liked minded mature and older humble believers who can withstand these 'wolves'. Paul warned the Ephesians that the wolves 'may come...... possibly infiltrate....a good chance some will come....NO, he said THEY WILL COME FROM WITHIN your gatherings. In the days we are living in, the discernment we need is more crucial than its ever been. Watch out, don't be decieved. I don't mean to sound paranoid but at 66, I've seen my share of wolves within the church and they are everywhere.
@eugenejoseph7076 We should be cautious about wolves but I have a thought and a question. Thought: I think it happens in any group of people, and sometimes they're the ones leading. In other words, just disagreeing or having another idea isn't the sign of being a narcissist or a wolf. Question: How do we decide whether someone is a wolf?
If a traditional churchis biblically sound in its teaching, it helps members to keep true to scripture. Home churches sometimes go askew on one aspect of the gospel, when they don't have some biblically very sound members. And they sometimes exclude less popular members .....and sometimes they think they really are more spiritual than other Christians . I say these horrible things because I have SEEN them over many years. Which means....just remain humble.
@christienodendaal3001 Agreed. A housechurch, like any church, is susceptible to immaturity and false or bad teaching. The caricature would be a "what does this passage mean to YOUUU" meeting where everyone exchanges ignorance. But my experience has been that it's usually not that. As someone who is trained and experienced, I always learn something from the questions of the untrained and inexperienced. Of course, what grounds it is the adherence to scripture. "Let the scriptures say all that they say, and don't make them say anything they don't say." So, while housechurch is certainly susceptible to error, it's also true that too many traditional/conventional churches have bad teaching from a pastor who has positional authority to continue in bad teaching. (And many are good, of course.) But you are right, the housechurches benefit from the oversight of someone with wisdom and maturity, per the pastoral epistles. And yes, humility!
@@simplerfaith good reply to a good comment. Back in the day of the " Jesus movement" home Bible studies were very popular. Usually they were on a weeknight. Many were led by unqualified young guys trying to grow their first beard to look older, and were a disaster
Without meaning to be sarcastic I could say that if a traditional church was biblically sound, it wouldn't be a traditional church - it would be a healthy house church. Then it would be following the biblical model.
@henryrogers5500 absolutely! It's not the perfect way or the only right way, but it is a good way and shines in some aspects where conventional models struggle.
That's why we have the Bible. It is our guide to aspire to the biblical model - which is house church, not the institutional church model handed down to us from catholicism (just to be honest). So "issues" simply need to be addressed biblically and lovingly. This can and should happen more effectively in the house church setting.
I have done House Church in America and in China for decades, and I can assure you that every horrible thing that you can find in a house church somewhere you can also find in institutional churches. The issue is not whether a church has problems, the issue is whether we are doing Church like the apostles intended us to do Church. If an apostle were alive today he would not recognize what we have constructed end call Church.
The Acts 2 assembly also sold all their belongings also, why? Because the kingdom of heaven was at hand. Acts 2 was not the assembly (the body of CHRIST), they were the little flock.
@ Jesus was speaking to the jewish flock, the little flock (Luke 12:32). The other sheep are (gentiles) not of this fold (jews). John 10:16. Things that differ are not the same. So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. Matt.20:16
@@timoromeo7663 Thanks for answering. I'm still not sure what point you're making. Are you disagreeing or agreeing with the video? Or maybe are you simply making a point of your own that the video reminded you of? I'm sorry to be so slow in comprehending.
Was the Acts 2:42 church just an apostle study? As for the pastoral epistles, we treat them like we do all the scriptures: Always let them say what they say, and never make them say what they don't. So yes, we try to follow what the scriptures say about leaders. But in my experience, when most of us read those passages, we add our own cultural meaning to titles that isn't in the text.
@alisonkulatea2989 I'm not sure how to take the comment. I agree with what you wrote. (Romans 12; 1 Cor 12) But then you ask if I'm serious, which sounds like you think i don't agree. I'm confused. But yes, everyone uses the gifts they've received to serve and edify everyone else.
When Covid happened, Churches claimed that ministry could and should continue online. Not true. There is no fellowship online, no communion online, and no children's or teen ministry online. We can not greet each online with a holy kiss, passing of the peace, or any kind of hug or handshake. There is no church unless we can assemble together as members of Christ. And our Right of Assembly is guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States. In Albuquerque, NM was only one Pastor who did not cave to the demand to close the Church doors, and that was Pastor Smotherton at Legacy Church. Watch and learn. Gird your loins. Refuse to kneel to the god of state. Read examples of courage in the scriptures. And don't run away crying like a bunch of scared little girls. Jesus said, " pick up your cross and follow me"...
Agreed. I do think that what we think of as a pastor is different from the shepherding elder we see in the first century church. Most people see the pastor as someone who can lead an organizations and create good presentations. But the first century pastor washed feet (served people in practical ways) and taught the kingdom of God. As a pastor myself, I love how the microchurch model keeps on reminding me of that distinction.
@@simplerfaith Acts 6:2 would show that the primary duty of pastor/elder/bishop (all the same) is to minister the word. They are the mouth piece of the church. Deacons help with the practical matters of serving so that elders can better focus on prayer and preaching
@pb_destiny Thanks for that comment. I love Acts 6:1-7! If I might, I do think we've added layers of meaning and assumptions to the terms pastor/elder/bishop and deacon, as well as to the phrase "minister the word." What we see in Acts 6 is that the apostles had taken on too many responsibilities and failed at them. So they assigned responsibilities to others who were filled with the Spirit and called for that service, so that they themselves could give their attention to the ministry of the word and to prayer. Amen. But we need to decide whether that was about their function as apostles or whether they were functioning as pastors/elders/bishops. The apostles were missionaries. "Sent ones." That's different from shepherds, elders, and overseers, even though some would no doubt have functioned in those roles as well. But I'm reminded of when Peter and Paul taught separately (Acts 20, 1 Peter 5) that overseers should "keep watch over the flock that's under your care, be eager to serve, not lording it over people." It sounds different from the apostles call to devote themselves to the ministry of the word and to prayer in Acts 6. I'm not saying there's no overlap, just that I think there's more depth to how we read these passages and understand them in our context. And I think the context of whatever religious system is most familiar to us tends to distort our readings of the texts about such things, depending on how central pastors are to church life.
I believe that "conventional" is what Yeshua consistently condemned the Scribes and Pharisees for. Is it not? I believe that "conventional church" is what humankind has built, in lieu of the spiritual Temple that Yeshua rebuilt in three days via His suffering, death, and resurrection. When I look at the budgets of "conventional churches", I cannot escape the image of the (second) temple having become such a place of thriving commerce that Yeshua became angered and purged it of the mammon-focused elements. I believe that "conventional church" is what keeps so many from seeing the glory of YHWH through the living body of Yeshua, because it is more of a clubhouse than a haven for edification and true spiritual growth. Just listen to the phrase "going to church", and if you discern truth, you will realize how ridiculous it is. You cannot "go" to "the called-out ones"! As some have stated, Tom Wadsworth has some very clear observations about "church". I am thankful to find that there are others that, like myself, struggle deeply with "conventional church", and a desire to return to the Biblical Church that is demonstrated in the Word.
the idea, of going to a prepared service seems to be counter productive....there is little learning, here.....and often times comes across as a feel good, promotional message....
It certainly can be ineffective. I mean, I still believe there are good conventional churches. But in so many, all the energy goes into the presentational aspects of it. And that falls short. It feels plastic. There are times to have an event where you put on a show. But I think it's so much better when it's conversational rather than presentational. And, to be fair, some housechurches slip into presentational as well. But wherever and whatever the gathering looks like, I think opening scripture in a conversational way is the best!
That is absurd! The first century church was a conglomeration of micro churches! They met in homes and under trees, etc. The early Christians would be horrified to see what we call”church” today! I am horrified!
I have golfed seven times in my life. And that was 30 years ago. And only because my work was related to that industry. But as for saving souls, I personally meditate on Acts 20:20-28. May it be true.
I got the best of both a weekly gathering of small groups of about 15 people occasionally we have a meal roughly 200 maybe several groups we all meet in one building and all come a variety of Christian denominations.
I would say all 5 points is reason to HAVE a microchurch, since all you mention in your points is in total contradiction to what the early christians did. And if it takes "more effort" to gather in ones home i would say it's your love for God that is lacking "No show", yea, thats really biblical .. lmao
The Bible lays out the order of the church. Who is the pastor of your church? Who are the deacons? The Bible speaks of pastor and deacons...even giving instructions on how to select them. All things are done orderly and together. What you have sounds like a bible study or fellowship group, and there is nothing wrong with that. But, when you step away from God's order problems arise....we see this when the roles of husbands/wives and parents/children are changed. Jesus submitted to God, wives submits to their husbands, and children are to submit to parents. We, as christians, are to submit to government authority until they supersede God's authority. The Bible speaks of authority in the church, and we are to submit to that as well. The church is not described as a group coming together all on equal authority. There is to be leadership and order. Of course the leadership is to be held accountable by the members, but the position is to be respected. The pastor and teachers are accountable to God for their leadership. We may not like our president, policeman, school teachers... but we respect the position of authority. Again, "where two or three are gathered....", yes nothing wrong with prayer meetings, Bible studies, and fellowships. But, church is a little more formal in order. It's my speculation that many prefer the "micro church" because they do not like the authority and hierarchy and only want to be around a small group of people they prefer and not have to "deal with" those they do not like. I certainly do not mean that non-believers and those with sinister plans should enter the church and be accepted, that's another reason for authority and accountability for those that claim to be born again believers. Of course, those not born again are welcome to come hear the Word preached, but must submit to the order of the church, not be allowed to join until professing faith according to the Bible. Then, they are subject to accountability by the other members. This is a problem with traditional church for many....they DO NOT want to be held accountable. 1 & 2 Corinthians describes this process. We are to be accountable by the body of believers. And everyone plays a different roles with equal honor. Some are hands, some are feet, some are eyes....
Our churches are led by elders who shepherd and serve their church. I oversee them. And actually, they require very little oversight. So, I'm curious, when the Bible specifies pastors (elders, overseers) and deacons (servants), and even describes how to select them, it doesn't prescribe the ministry activities that we commonly think of as pastor and deacon. When you assume that house churches don't have pastors or deacons, what is it that you think is missing? What are they not doing that would qualify them as a pastor or deacon? I do agree that many resist being under authority. I don't think it's a microchurch phenomenon. In fact, I think it's pervasive in the conventional churches. And next to it is men and women who are ambitious about being the ones in authority. I think many who are drawn to simpler kinds of church (microchurch, house church) have become disillusioned by the systems that reward and tolerate the competition and rebellion. In our churches, at least, I don't pick up on any "you can't tell me what to do" vibes. They're quite healthy in that regard.
Exegesis means to draw out what is in the text, while eisegesis means to read something into the text that is not there. You are interpreting the Bible using eisengesis. You are projecting the modern institutional model back 2000 years onto the biblical texts. The first century ekklesia was not pastor centered or led. I challenge you to find one pastor named in the NT. I would also ask you to study the meaning of the greek word ekklesia in its 1st century context. It actually does describe "a group coming together". The APEST model of Ephesians 4:11ff describes the leadership needed to build up (edify - oikodomé) the church. Shepherd (pastor) is just one of the functions. The modern institutional church has largely sidelined (rejected) the first 3 functions and put all of the emphasis on the office of Pastor. To the detriment of the biblical purpose of the Ekklesia IMHO.
@nfernandez11163 when you say parish church, do you mean a specific denomination like Roman Catholic or Presbyterian, or parish in a more general sense?
It’s not better. It’s biblical. “Conventional “ church; how it’s organized; how it’s led; promoting a clergy laity divide, is just not found in Scripture. I for one cannot participate in a “conventional “ church as it promotes things that are not biblical and this is harmful to a believers growth and the understanding of what’s important in our walk with the Lord. To each his own, but not sure how you can support the muting of the saints in “conventional “ church.
@@rjhinnj thanks for the comment. While I believe conventional church models can be redeemed (and even housechurch models need the same redemption), i totally sympathize with the concern. I wonder if you've seen my video on keeping it conversational? It speaks to what you call the muting of the saint. ruclips.net/video/ltNS3I7i-HY/видео.htmlfeature=shared
Traditional “church” with a huge building that often is only used for a few hours a week does seem wasteful. Heating and cooling and upkeep is expensive. I’ve considered that with NFL football stadiums as well. Empty…often.
Yeah, and I guess the reason churches and the NFL can afford to waste money on those things is because people still give their money to make it happen. Take away the financial support and football would be played on community fields and church would be in people's homes. And neither would be the same quality "entertainment."
@phillip_lee and so you decided to leave a cryptic dig rather than just telling people what you think "Church" is? I bet you can do better than that. 😇
Phillip, why not just say we are the 'called-out' ones, since that's what the term means? It's as simple as that. All of the ecclesiastical terminology certainly doesn't help anyone.I think Roger is correct in not leaving what seems to be a cryptic dig. Adding value to the discussion is helpful, whereas just a quick complaint is not helpful, except to tell others that you may, or not, agree.This is a well done presentation on why the early gatherings were specifically not for the purpose of 'worship' as most are today: From ...Worship #1 Why the Early Church Did Not Have Worship Services Tom Wadsworth, former 'pastor' on RUclips - of a 7-part series - ruclips.net/video/z84QJzWlRJc/видео.html
The ONLY reason people should gather in a 'church' setting - big or small - is to bring glory and honor to Almighty God, the Father, who created us, and to his son - the King of Kings - JESUS CHRIST! Romans 8:9 Now if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. The purpose of getting together with fellow believers is to glorify Christ and celebrate the incredible blessing of being a part of his eternal bride! God lives in the praises of his people! Psalm 22:3 Quote: The Maker of the stars would rather die than live without YOU.
Agreed, but what do you mean by giving him glory? Does it refer to actions we do that glorify him, or are you referring more to the attitude or intention or purpose for which we gather?
I know what you are saying is true, as I wake up late and roll over to hear your message. Then I ask God to bring me safely through surgery in the morning. I ask others to pray for me. I am so undeserving. "Lord, help me, to put you first and be solid. "
I'm honored to pray for you too.
Praying for you!
I very much enjoy the mini sermons. Thank you for listening to the Lord.
@@leonardcolquhoun3604 Thank you. I'm glad they're helpful to you.
@little pookie, I'm praying for you this morning. Contact me directly via rogershenk.com and let me know how surgery goes.
My wife and I ran an in home fellowship in our home for 8 years. Everything said this gentleman is true. Acts has so many answers. It's the transition from the law to grace.
Micro churches or "home church" as we call it in the UK is the future for true Christianity!
The future because the past! :)
To many conventional churches have weakened the doctrine to the point of just being nice to everyone.
They don't preach the word of God any more.
I get more out of the weekly bible study group, because we are all serious about it.
There's often only 8 of us there.
Yes, home church (or the church that meets in someone’s house) is the biblical idea to emphasize that church are the people gathering at a home and is not the gathering place. Micro church is the new marketing name.
@@damaj6222 Yeah, I almost detoured away from "microchurch" because of the abuse of church marketing in the church growth movement, but then it made sense because it's not really necessary to gather in a home or house. I call it whatever makes sense in the moment. But yes, it's the people!
@pauldelaney5990do you have a spouse and children?
I have been listening to many like you who speak of "home church" instead of the conventional church. The more I hear from people like you and others, the more I am getting convicted about what a biblical church should be today. Thank you.
@psalms_for_the_church_to_sing You're welcome, and thanks. Do you have any stirring to try it?
Thank you sooo much for this video!
I have gone to conventional church for 45 years and wicked and/or incompetent professional preachers. I'm fed up with it.
I'd like to learn more about microchurches.
I have been looking for a biblical house church in New Zealand for six years and found one. It is the greatest blessing. Thanks for this encouraging video.
I love hearing that!
So just start inviting people to a meal etc Just start getting to gether. Its guru that want u to attend their function lol My older grandmother had NOT attended for yrs ( grsndfathers were both killed ) Had held to belief of Isrsel becoming a nation again( after the Balfour British declaration in 1918 ) yrs later my younger grndmother from Ukraine ( after WW2) was then looking after the older. ( my dad outlived my mother half dad's age ) The 2 grandmothers held "house church" Neighbours all knew. German / Ukrainina grandmother occasionally went with us to the city ( later better psved roads) went to " German speaking function" ( Luthrrian congregation)my parents went to an " evangelcial congrgation" But we had functions in the farm community. The RC were the only ones that insisted in their RC Mass. With a "priest at the parish" Others went were ever Their were JW too. But they were " more seperate" ( i even went there as teenager few times. Yeh debated with them too. SDA were at s farm in the valley ( worked for hwy dept on Sunday - they had Sat Sabbath off. - hey learnt more riding horses with SDA. Lol. Learnt from Greeks when butcher lambs. For Passover some Jewish people too. Had even gone to Jewish Synoque. Learnt studied various things. Life is school. Peter got out of the boat. 1 403 830 4124 Cslgary Ab Cdn.
@AlanWolf-d7l yes, just start. Do Acts 2:42, and devote yourself to the apostles' teaching (reading the scriptures and talking about them), fellowship (caring for each other, sharing life together), eating together, and praying together.
Auckland?
Microchurch definitely sounds like a refreshing way to go!
I agree with you 100%.
I'm very happy to have found this.
We are the Little Flock,
not a Mega-Church.
That does my heart good. Where are you located?
@simplerfaith
Aspen, Colorado
@@matthewcarbone2201 If you don't mind, send me an email with your contact info and I'll try to connect next time we travel through. (roger@x242.net)
I've just started reading a book called "Pagen Church" (or something similar). It talks about doing a "microchurch" of believers meeting in their homes. I think that's what the apostles did. I am open to hearing what the Holy Spirit is saying to me and at times I feel that I should leave the traditional church.
Many have been influenced by Frank Viola's book "Pagan Christianity." He does have something good to say. But I personally believe that we can embrace the simpler church model without demonizing traditional churches as much as he does.
If God does lead you to leave your conventional church setting and explore the simpler model, my counsel is to do it without condemnation. We are all building on the foundation of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 3). God will judge how we build. Sometimes I think people in the housechurch movement become hypercritical of their brothers and sisters who, for whatever reason, remain in fellowship in more conventional churches.
Peace to you as you discern.
@@simplerfaithbest I have read so far
Look up Dr Tom Wadsworth. He teaches what a New Testament really is. It’s not the megachurch at all.
@NTChurchStudies Thanks. I will. But I also like to hear what/how people hear. How would you explain the biggest take aways from his teachings in your own words, like the top two or three points he makes?
@@NTChurchStudies Thanks. I'll give him a listen.
I was in a small housechurch and it went pearshaped because the leader a so called prophet had issues from childhood and teenage years that were not resolved. The result was awful, control, manipulation and judemental attitudes.
I finally left and joined a charasmatic Anglican church with about 50 or so parishoners. It is awesome, there is no show and people are used according to their gifts, but also there is still some structure to the service. This church is smazing, i has a secong hand shop that gives alot of money away to missions and good causes. A church is big enough to carry out missions work. This church also has a youth outreach on friday nights which has sometimes 40 teenagers who attend.
Honestly inn the small house church i was in i didnt get to do the things in. God that i am doing now. God bless you guys though, it works for you, but there are also congretations out there that are really good as well.
@@rhonddavincent2803 amen. I know there are!
Thank you, spot on! This is what we’ve been doing in our ministry in Germany for many years.
Wonderful! Thanks.
Exactly why we need micro churches.
I would say because that it the biblical model. That’s the way the disciples did it.
@@sputnik77ukwhich disciples? Jesus' earthly ministry to Israel or the pauline doctrine that is the Body of Christ for today's age of grace?
How can I find a good house church?
Well let's see if I can help. If you don't mind, go to x242.net/nextstep and fill out that form. Then I'll follow up with you.
Well said! And thought provoking!
Thank you!
Been attending micro church for about 3 years now, involved in worship, but struggling with the lack of accountability of leadership and a spirit of control creeping in. Also a lack of discernment when inviting strangers in who then cause harm to the other attendees. It sometimes feels like a micro cult more than micro church. Am taking a break from it, but am getting questioned about my lack of commitment. I' m not sure what to do going forward.
Thanks for speaking up. I'm interested in what feels like a lack of accountability and a spirit of control. If it's about what to do when (practical matters like when and where to meet, or what songs to sing), that's one thing. If it's about enforcing one understanding of the scriptures (theology, doctrine, dogma), that's another. Some people have very strong convictions about what house church should and shouldn't look like. Sometimes they are the leaders. Other times they are not. But I've known people to part ways over what I would consider practical matters that Would you say it's more practical or theological?
As for inviting strangers in, that's fraught with opportunity for good and bad. We need to do it as a matter of Christian hospitality and evangelism/discipleship, but how much do we filter out those who don't fit? Do we let them self-filter? Or do we ever tell people "You're not welcome here"? Of course, if someone is causing harm to others it needs to be addressed directly. What sort of harm?
@@simplerfaith Okay, I'll try to unpack my loaded comments in the most concise way I know how. Firstly, the lack of accountability and possibly the control thing refers to when the founder and leader of the fellowship makes arbitrary decisions for the others without consultation, and when asked why the decision was made states that it is for the greater good. This doesn't actually answer the question of why though. For example, the leader (who has a real heart for the lost, and rightly so) has a desire to pursue wider (meaning global) evangelism which will take him away from the fellowship and the midweek discipleship and prayer meetings often. So he nominated another person in the fellowship to lead those groups in his absence even though this person is not experienced in this, is relatively new to the group, has many personal issues that need ministering to, and really isn't ready for such responsibility. This has proven to be problematic as the four new believers in the fellowship have struggled with the transition to the new leader and have found his approach harsh, judgemental and quite upsetting to them. When this was brought to the attention of the leader of the fellowship he just responded that the man has to learn, but I would ask at what price? Three of these vulnerable ones have sadly left the fellowship because they have been hurt and their genuine grievances have not been addressed, nor has the substitute leader been properly equipped and prepared for his new role, never mind the fact that he has his own hurts and concerns that he hasn't had ministry for. There is so much more I could add but I have made this long enough already. As for inviting strangers in I completely agree with what you say. My concern is that in our fellowship the doors of every group, even intercessory prayer is thrown open to anyone who wants to attend. We have had issues with some individuals trying to control and direct the prayer away from the Lord's agenda to their own, or to another spirit. One individual came for about six months, attended every meeting and made themselves indispensable, only to quietly try and seduce certain other individuals behind the scenes. When one of the new believers saw what was going on they called them out on it, the person became offended, ranted and raved and subsequently left, never to return. These are just a couple of examples of what I was alluding to. I don't wan't to sound unkind or ungrateful. I really love these guys, but I am struggling to know what to do about staying or going, because the leader of the fellowship is not someone who is easy to speak with. I feel torn to be honest. Could just do with some advice.
@@ziggysam6139 An unhealthy group doesn't just gradually get healthy without intentionality. But it can get healthy. Are your gatherings Leader Focused or Conversation Focused? Leader Focused might be like a small version of conventional church where people gather, sing songs that someone like you pick, and then everyone listens to the leader teach a lesson or something. It can include discussion afterward, but everything is focused on and directed by a person who leads the group. Conversation Focused has a leader who facilitates things, but their most observable role is to ask really good, probing questions and make sure everyone is involved. Of course they have opportunity to teach in those conversations, but the dynamic of the group is different. Leader Focus is not wrong. But Conversation Focused tends to struggle less with power dynamics because the nature of it is that everyone is participating. How would you describe your group?
As for the seduction and all that, it's unacceptable. Doesn't even need much more comment than that. Good for them for calling it out, and it's good the offender left. Call it good, consider it done. It may be symptomatic of the greater problem (that you're describing with the leader), in which case it makes sense to work with the leader. If you want to have a private conversation about all this, email me at roger@x242.net.
I used to go to a home church as they called it but turned out to be more of a cult and lots of control issues and yes these people started this cause they had issues with accountability in a larger community and was the blind leading the blind.
@willkeasling1526 sadly, it can happen in any form of church. Have you since found a group of believers to be in fellowship with?
I go to a small parish in a liturgical tradition. There's certainly no "show." The liturgy makes sure of that. Through the liturgy I actively participate with my brothers and sisters in the worship of the Lord Jesus. During the week there are small groups that meet in each other's homes for further reflection on Scripture by reading the lessons appointed for the upcoming Sunday. This prepares us to actually engage with the homily given by our priest. Before the service all ages meet for Bible study. I guess my point is that, if you are going to a church that is a "show" there are other alternatives than a microchurch that give you the best of both worlds.
I agree. And there are some wonderful "low church" options as well.
My question is if the priest is the one doing the talking all of the time... isnt that a show?
Is there discourse?
@SmartestDumbGuy here's my thinking on that. ruclips.net/video/726B2nIqpBg/видео.html and ruclips.net/video/ltNS3I7i-HY/видео.html
@@SmartestDumbGuy Your question springs from a common misperception and I can tell it's sincere so I want to respond but I'm pretty busy right now. I'll get back to you. In the meantime just recognize that the English word "liturgy" comes from the Greek word for "work of the people."
@@SmartestDumbGuy Let me try to answer your question by describing the church service I attended last Sunday.
We began by standing and singing the hymn “Rejoice, rejoice believers!” which emphasized one of the upcoming readings from Scripture. After the hymn, the priest invited us to kneel with him to confess our sins to the Almighty. We did this silently and then joined in praying out loud a well-known prayer that begins, “Almighty and most merciful Father; We have erred, and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep” (see Isaiah 53:6). After that the priest reminded us that God “desireth not the death of a sinner” and declared God’s willingness to “pardon and absolve all those who truly repent” followed by the people reciting the Lord’s Prayer.
Next, the priest, using an ancient call and response from Psalm 51 (Priest: O Lord, open thou our lips. People: And our mouth shall show forth thy praise) then invited us to praise God. We then stood and read out loud Psalm 95 using a plainsong chant. Remaining standing, the priest led us in a recitation of Psalm 80.
After the Psalm we sat and listened to one of our layreaders read a portion of Paul’s letter to the Philippians. We responded to the reading by standing and chanting a portion of the prayer of Azaraiah. Next we sat for the second reading, this one from the gospel of John and responded by standing and chanting Psalm 100.
Here we got to rest a little bit and sat to listen to the priest offer his remarks on the scripture readings. Because the lectionary lets us know in advance what the readings are going to be many of us had met on a previous weeknight to read them aloud and reflect on them ourselves. This helps us to better consider what the priest presents in his homily.
At the end of the homily we stood and recited the Apostles’ Creed which summarizes the essential facts of our Trinitarian faith. Then we knelt and the priest offered prayers on behalf of our country, Christ’s church, and “all sorts and conditions of men.” Although we were silent, because these prayers were prepared in advance we were able to mentally pray along with the priest and were not passive listeners. We then joined in the General Thanksgiving in which we gave thanks to God “for all thy goodness and loving-kindness to us, and to all men…”
At this point we knelt for the prayers of Holy Communion. The priest offered the prayers of consecration of the bread and wine after which we all prayed the prayer of Humble Access (“We do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies…”
After receiving Communion we prayed the Great Thanksgiving. The priest then prayed that our “hearts and minds [remain] in the knowledge and love of God” and asked God’s blessing on us.
We stood to sing the recessional, “Rejoice, the Lord is King!” The priest encouraged us to “go forth in the Name of Christ” and we responded, “Thanks be to God!”
This may or may not sound like something that appeals to you but I hope it answers your question and explains how our service is not just passively watching a priest say and do everything. In fact, our approach to worship, in my opinion, demands more from the congregation than in many, many other churches I’ve been to. If it sounds like a lot of arbitrary standing, kneeling, sitting it basically just follows the simple rule: stand to praise/sing, sit to be instructed, kneel to pray. It is a form of worship that fully engages the worshiper - body, mind, soul.
FWIW, what I described was the service of Morning Prayer in a traditional Anglican Church in the Anglican Church in North America.
I can't find the link. I'm in California and I'm reaching out to you. I want this! 🙏🏻
Email me at roger@x242.net!
The title had me going.
If you want to be cradle to the grave spiritually infantile and dependent on a self-proclaimed ordained pastor for your spiritual milk, micro church is not the place for you.
If you want to remain ever emotionally susceptible to feel good messages instead of growing closer to the Lord, micro church is not the place for you. If you want to go to church as a duty instead of walking in faith as the 1st century Christians did, micro church is not the place for you.
You're on a roll. :)
That's all they did in the book of Acts home church every night somewhere it's better than he's mega churches or large churches that have groups to where only certain people are important and other ones are not I've been to several denominational churches several mega churches large churches and I found the best churches are under 50 people cuz everybody knows each other and care about each other
I agree chamuuemura.MOST HAVE BEEN ON MILK FOR YEARS.PAUL ADMONISHES EXCELL STILL MORE TO THE MEAT OF THE WORD..I HAVE YET TO SEE ANY SO CALLED BELIEVER WHO HASN'T GROWN SPIRITUALLY (ONLY ON MILK CONTINUALLY) HAVE ANY DISCERNMENT. I COULD GO ON AND ON.IN THE BOOK OF ACTS , THEY WERE ALL OF ONE MIND IN THE SPIRIT, THAT INCLUDES DOCTRINALLY.
You said “There was nothing to inspire” Really! Wow, the word of God is more than sufficient to truly inspire- then Prayer, the breaking of bread and the communion of the saints
Yeah, I hope it's obvious that I agree with you! What I mean is there's no program to inspire, like a motivational speech or a moving concert. The inspired word of God should be all the inspiration we need!
Great stuff
@@mizzou7244 thank you!
In seriousness,,,,The main thing to deal with is .... talkative people , who get away from biblical or spiritual edification
15 years of leading group has taught me some,,but,, i would gladly receive any tips in dealing with that issue
Small group is still TOTALLY WORTH IT, THE BEST !
Yeah, conversation is messy, isn't it? Some people dominate because they have a lot to say. Others just can't help but fill in every silent nook or cranny, even if they have nothing to say. For leading people who get off topic, rather than pushing back at them to try to stop them, I try to pull them into the conversation, and to come alongside them if possible. Whatever you do, it's got to be genuine. Anything disingenuous will be smelled out. But if you're genuinely caring and interested, you can say, "Interesting thought. Let's see if that's where the scriptures lead us," and then go back to the scriptures. Or you can say, "That's a new connection for me. What about this scripture caused your mind to go there?" And of course, give them grace to say, "Yeah, I was just off on a tangent." No shame. Let everyone laugh and then get back to the scriptures. But honestly, sometimes what I think is off topic, actually connects in ways that I wouldn't have seen it! I've learned a lot by letting people talk, and asking them to make the connections that I don't think are there.
It would be interesting to find out what spirits of darkness these talkative people are dealing with...these talkative people are described in Ephesians 6:12? Sound like an antichrist spirit if they are getting away from biblical or spiritual edification... It is sad that more is not taught about the spirits of darkness, their characteristics, and how to recognize and deal with them...
Amen! Best I can tell, first century believers didn't have praise and worship teams and do worshiptainment with motivational speakers. Without being better equipped, too many are lost even in church congregations. When real persecution comes to the US like what is already occurring in other nations, how many will we have failed?
Persecution is already here in the form of pride, temptation, ego, gossip, self righteousness, etc... and we are all failing.
Worrying about tomorrow's problems seems to keep us from dealing with todays personal problems.
Excuse me, sir....those are some of the manifestations and characteristics of the spirits of darkness....let me encourage you to in-depth study beginning with Eph 6:12...
I really enjoyed hearing this, thank you.
@@fergu588 you're welcome
Back in the late 70’s and early 80’s we believed in house church or home groups. It was a place of relationships and accountability to follow Jesus. Then as we grew we became an independent church meeting on Sundays with home groups during the week. Then what I see as the “spirit of the Pharisees” kicked in. The leadership decided they were responsible to make sure everyone did everything right and it became intrusive into individual lives.not talking normal accountability. If a person is doing things to follow Jesus because of peer pressure it is more detrimental in the long run. We have to trust in the Holy Spirit to guide each other. (And yes there is biblical precedent for rebuke but this went beyond) So finally the leadership decided they needed accountability and joined up with another group of independent churches and we lost ourselves in the worship of men and rules. Our family eventually left but we were quite damaged.
My point is, I do so long for the days of home groups and intimately walking with other Christians. I have no idea how to find that. And my heart tells me that we will need this type of fellowship as the end times grow more intense. Please pray we find this again. My husband and I have been but so far have not found where the Lord wants us. But the longing in my heart for this sort of fellowship grows stronger every day.
N
@@cherylp714 where are you located?
This video has totally encouraged me to do more microchurch!!!
@@katiegeyvanpittius7391 I'm so glad to hear that!
I'm from Ontario Canada. Do you know of any micro churches here? I've come to the end of my rope!
I don't, but shoot me an email and I'll see if I can help. Roger@x242.net
According to a former house church acquaintance, at least here in Texas, this kind of group usually and eventually becomes a haven for empty nesters.
We have a lot of young families and singles in our house church.
Our desire for simplicity coincided with becoming empty nesters. In our network, we have churches with kids and churches without. Honestly, microchurch with kids is more difficult than without. But maybe that's because most of us are used to church programs where other people take care of the kids. In microchurches you can't assign them to others. I was recently with a church where the children are asked to read the scripture ahead of time and come with a question that prompts discussion. Those kids come up with some wonderful questions.
We outgrew our houses so we had to move into public spaces; which is Biblical too and we still exist after 34 years.
@@alanlatta9379 The danger with the route you describe is that it can lead a group right back to becoming a traditional church (ie. obtaining a building, hiring a pastor, etc.) Not saying you are doing this but many home groups have. In my opinion the better route is start right from the start with the understanding that when the group begins getting too big to fit in a house (30 - 40 people) you split into 2 or 3 smaller groups. You can still meet all together from time to time but most gatherings will be in the smaller more intimate groups. Our group is just now beginning this division process.
@harvestvillage695 While I'm an advocate for simpler church, it's good to not go beyond what is written. Nowhere in the scriptures are we told to keep it small. We're not even told to try and strategically plant or grow churches. It's good to have a strategy and to be wise in it. But it's also good to recognize that the strategy typically includes a response to current culture and conditions, which do change.
In the home church setting like the early church did everyone was edified. Trying to remember a sermon verses a group of people studying and understanding the scriptures? It wasn’t until the mid third century that denominational congregations began. It was a wrong model and born again Christianity became weak and slow in growth. Home church is far better for spiritual growth.
Thanks for the comment. I agree with you, home church is great for spiritual growth. I personally try not to call church models right and wrong. I think tiny church is best for most things, but if a multitude wants to gather around a good teacher, or assemble to sing their prayers en masse, that's not wrong. In fact, it's good. But simpler church is better. :)
So this was sarcasm…. Very funny…. You just listed 5 reasons to not go to “real” church and long for micro church…. Got it….
Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together as some have
Amen.
To me these 5 reasons are actually reason TO do microchurch/house church.. All 5 points are exactly what my wife and I have grown tired of.
Ding ding ding ding! You get it! 😅
Are you currently doing it or starting to think about it?
Yes we've wanted to do something with home church or even join one for a couple years. Not so easy to find home churches
@@jakeliftsnshreds6670 Email me (roger@x242.net) if you want, and we can talk. No pressure, just connecting.
Can you please hold the camera still? I have sight issues and I have trouble focusing. Thank you.
@heathers9599 I really wish I could! I have a tremor, which I'm usually able to mask, but a handheld camera really picks it up. You'll notice that I use a fixed tripod in other videos.
The new age pastors have convinced me that Jesus is coming very soon for his bride
If heresy and apostasy were indicators of Jesus' eminent return, he would have returned in the first century. But yes, we are nearer now than ever before. We should all be ready.
Love it! Thanks for sharing! I also have a channel where I talk about this movement as well. God is doing a great work in our communities through micro churches!
The #1 reason is empty offering plates. A lot of "pastors" would have to actually work for their money.
That was a significant challenge for me when I left a ministry "career" to pursue this. God has been faithful. Acts 20:34 has really captured my attention in new ways.
That said, I'm not crazy about the insinuation that pastors don't work. In fact, scripture likens ministry to shepherding and to the work of an ox treading out the grain. And in that context it says that it's not only *not wrong* for preachers to receive support, but that it's wrong for believers to refuse to offer it. "Those who preach the gospel should earn their living from the gospel." And "especially those whose work is preaching and teaching." I think support makes most sense when people are called to leave and take the gospel to other places. What we see in Paul and Barnabas, and later Silas, is that they preached to Jews (reached) as well as Gentiles (unreached), and were sometimes supported, and other times worked with their own hands. I think if we stopped thinking of being a local church pastor as a full time job, we would do more important things with our time. We'd see less complex programs that can be a mask for lovelessness and lack of zeal.
I really wish people would stop trying to divide the body of Christ by submitting that one way of doing church is better than another. The Lord is using large churches as well as house churches to preach and teach the Gospel to those who have ears to hear and hearts to respond. It hurts my heart to watch videos like this. Those who favor microchurches do not have a deeper understanding of discipleship. THey have a preference for how they desire to interact with other believers. I know so many people who would never choose to attend a microchurch for the very reson you said it was preferable....there is no place to hide. That is why some folks, especially those who are exploring the faith, come to a larger church in the first place. They want some anonymity. As they attend and begin to open their heart to the Word, they become more comfortable and desire to join in fellowship. Most big churches recognize the need for smaller groups. Indeed, it is a major emphasis in most. This provides a similar intimate atmosphere that microchurches offer. I sincerely prasy for God to bless you in the role He has led you. May He prosper you in every good thing. May many come to full commitment to the Savior through your approach to church. May he do the same for the portion of His Body that attracts believers and pre-believers in larger numbers to churches that make their purpose to honor the Lord, introduce people to Jesus, disciple believers into maturity, and minister to the family. May the Body of Christ be unified as we serve Him together until He returns.
No accountability, no authority, no scholarship, no tradition, it sounds like a blast! What can go wrong?😂
Why do you assume there's no accountability, authority, scholarship, or tradition?
I've been in denominational churches with no accountability, scholarship, with leaders who thought they were the authority. And heard of several large mainstream churches with "all the things" you mentioned still become abusive and unethical. Not sure size fixes or determines anything
@danw019 yeah, big or small, denominational or non-denom, doesn't guarantee anything positive or negative. All can go wrong but none automatically go wrong. I think there's wisdom to what we do where we're not denominational and we're not pastor centered. We share a common meal, open scripture and read it out loud, pray together, and develop friendships with each other. It's not abuse proof but we have found that it is a bit more resistant to the extremes of authoritarianism.
Further to the point that Roger made below ... it's organic. It is incumbent on all in the local gathering to pay attention and call out anything that is amiss. In that way I've seen far more accountability to the proper authority (Jesus Christ) in the past 28 years of doing house churching than I ever saw in my earlier decades of doing conventional 'church'. As for scholarship, aren't you studying scriptures and other related things constantly? Who says a person has to have a degree to be educated? That's a fine enough place to start, but you better be growing on your own with the Lord. That's a beauty of the house church model; everyone is accountable for studying all of the time, so they have something to share to help others also grow in Christ. You need to get your head out of the box and think according to Scripture. It's all there in black and white, if you care to search it out. I've seen so much more growth in the house setting than I have seen in a conventional 'church' setting, by leaps and bounds. There is so much proof of this that it cannot be denied. Worshiping or fellow-shipping with the back of someone head in front of you will not help you grow. You need the organic experiences of life-together, where you see exhortation, admonishment, encouragement, love, prayers, teaching opportunities, etcetera all lived out. That can't happen in the conventional setting.
John Fenn’s ministry was all about church homes across the world. He was told by God that it was for a time to come.
The “Entertainment Chuch Complexes”will be shut down over time. God said he was removing angels from these “churches”.
Whether God is removing his angels, I'm not sure. Depending on how you read the first three chapters of Revelation, it's worthwhile speculation. I do think those churches *can* still bear fruit, but that's not always an indication of God's favor. It could just be the power of God's word. And yes, I do believe our entertainment complexes and events are generally a disgrace and will be replaced with churches meeting in homes without all the hype and fanfare.
@ You must not be familiar with John Fenn. True man of God. Jesus and Him have had quite a few conversations face to face. This was one of them.
@@ALL4SCUBA05 Others have mentioned him to me but I've never studied him. I have no reason to believe that he's not the things you say. But I am decidedly slow to accept claims of private conversations with Jesus. That doesn't mean I don't believe that God can or has or does talk to people. But there are also false prophets who claim the same thing and lead people astray. So, whatever a person claims to have heard from Jesus, I run through scripture to see if it lines up. If it does, I try to use scripture to say it, and let the visit from God be an affirmation to draw us back to the scriptures. But, like I say, I simply don't know anything about John Fenn so I don't have an opinion about what he's said. I was just commenting on what you said, and what I believe about it.
IF HES ANYTHING LIKE THE HIRELING JESSE DUPLANTUS, I HAVE A WORD FOR YOU ....RUN.@@simplerfaith
These gathering can be so difficult at times because narcissistic individuals will often rise and begin to control the group covertly through the usual manipulation of 'I think we should do this, or do that or I disagree etc etc" In my experience you will need at least two of three liked minded mature and older humble believers who can withstand these 'wolves'. Paul warned the Ephesians that the wolves 'may come...... possibly infiltrate....a good chance some will come....NO, he said THEY WILL COME FROM WITHIN your gatherings. In the days we are living in, the discernment we need is more crucial than its ever been. Watch out, don't be decieved. I don't mean to sound paranoid but at 66, I've seen my share of wolves within the church and they are everywhere.
@eugenejoseph7076 We should be cautious about wolves but I have a thought and a question.
Thought: I think it happens in any group of people, and sometimes they're the ones leading. In other words, just disagreeing or having another idea isn't the sign of being a narcissist or a wolf.
Question: How do we decide whether someone is a wolf?
You can have the new age call me the back in the day people used to actually get saved
I'm not sure what that means.
If a traditional churchis biblically sound in its teaching, it helps members to keep true to scripture. Home churches sometimes go askew on one aspect of the gospel, when they don't have some biblically very sound members. And they sometimes exclude less popular members .....and sometimes they think they really are more spiritual than other Christians .
I say these horrible things because I have SEEN them over many years.
Which means....just remain humble.
@christienodendaal3001 Agreed. A housechurch, like any church, is susceptible to immaturity and false or bad teaching. The caricature would be a "what does this passage mean to YOUUU" meeting where everyone exchanges ignorance. But my experience has been that it's usually not that. As someone who is trained and experienced, I always learn something from the questions of the untrained and inexperienced. Of course, what grounds it is the adherence to scripture. "Let the scriptures say all that they say, and don't make them say anything they don't say."
So, while housechurch is certainly susceptible to error, it's also true that too many traditional/conventional churches have bad teaching from a pastor who has positional authority to continue in bad teaching. (And many are good, of course.) But you are right, the housechurches benefit from the oversight of someone with wisdom and maturity, per the pastoral epistles. And yes, humility!
@@simplerfaith good reply to a good comment. Back in the day of the " Jesus movement" home Bible studies were very popular. Usually they were on a weeknight. Many were led by unqualified young guys trying to grow their first beard to look older, and were a disaster
Without meaning to be sarcastic I could say that if a traditional church was biblically sound, it wouldn't be a traditional church - it would be a healthy house church. Then it would be following the biblical model.
A micro church can also have issues. Like legalism and cliques.
@henryrogers5500 absolutely! It's not the perfect way or the only right way, but it is a good way and shines in some aspects where conventional models struggle.
That's why we have the Bible. It is our guide to aspire to the biblical model - which is house church, not the institutional church model handed down to us from catholicism (just to be honest). So "issues" simply need to be addressed biblically and lovingly. This can and should happen more effectively in the house church setting.
@@harvestvillage695 Agreed. Amen.
I have done House Church in America and in China for decades, and I can assure you that every horrible thing that you can find in a house church somewhere you can also find in institutional churches. The issue is not whether a church has problems, the issue is whether we are doing Church like the apostles intended us to do Church. If an apostle were alive today he would not recognize what we have constructed end call Church.
@@prettygoodbiblestudies Could be.
The Acts 2 assembly also sold all their belongings also, why? Because the kingdom of heaven was at hand. Acts 2 was not the assembly (the body of CHRIST), they were the little flock.
@timoromeo7663 I'm not sure I understanding the distinction you're making between the assembly and the little flock. Say more?
@ Jesus was speaking to the jewish flock, the little flock (Luke 12:32). The other sheep are (gentiles) not of this fold (jews). John 10:16. Things that differ are not the same. So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. Matt.20:16
@@timoromeo7663 Thanks for answering. I'm still not sure what point you're making. Are you disagreeing or agreeing with the video? Or maybe are you simply making a point of your own that the video reminded you of? I'm sorry to be so slow in comprehending.
What about the biblically prescribed elders and deacons in 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1? (What you are describing sounds like a Bible study.)
Was the Acts 2:42 church just an apostle study?
As for the pastoral epistles, we treat them like we do all the scriptures: Always let them say what they say, and never make them say what they don't. So yes, we try to follow what the scriptures say about leaders. But in my experience, when most of us read those passages, we add our own cultural meaning to titles that isn't in the text.
It should be about everyone plays their part !everyone !!Gods word is the encourager it speaks for itself …….are you serious✝️🙏✝️🙏✝️🙏❤️
@alisonkulatea2989 I'm not sure how to take the comment. I agree with what you wrote. (Romans 12; 1 Cor 12) But then you ask if I'm serious, which sounds like you think i don't agree. I'm confused. But yes, everyone uses the gifts they've received to serve and edify everyone else.
When Covid happened, Churches claimed that ministry could and should continue online. Not true. There is no fellowship online, no communion online, and no children's or teen ministry online. We can not greet each online with a holy kiss, passing of the peace, or any kind of hug or handshake. There is no church unless we can assemble together as members of Christ. And our Right of Assembly is guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States. In Albuquerque, NM was only one Pastor who did not cave to the demand to close the Church doors, and that was Pastor Smotherton at Legacy Church. Watch and learn. Gird your loins. Refuse to kneel to the god of state. Read examples of courage in the scriptures. And don't run away crying like a bunch of scared little girls. Jesus said, " pick up your cross and follow me"...
What do you think about microchurches as a legitimate option for gathering?
I like the reverse psychology 😁. Absolutely!
:)
You can have a pastor who does micro church.
Agreed. I do think that what we think of as a pastor is different from the shepherding elder we see in the first century church. Most people see the pastor as someone who can lead an organizations and create good presentations. But the first century pastor washed feet (served people in practical ways) and taught the kingdom of God. As a pastor myself, I love how the microchurch model keeps on reminding me of that distinction.
@@simplerfaith Acts 6:2 would show that the primary duty of pastor/elder/bishop (all the same) is to minister the word. They are the mouth piece of the church. Deacons help with the practical matters of serving so that elders can better focus on prayer and preaching
@pb_destiny Thanks for that comment. I love Acts 6:1-7!
If I might, I do think we've added layers of meaning and assumptions to the terms pastor/elder/bishop and deacon, as well as to the phrase "minister the word." What we see in Acts 6 is that the apostles had taken on too many responsibilities and failed at them. So they assigned responsibilities to others who were filled with the Spirit and called for that service, so that they themselves could give their attention to the ministry of the word and to prayer. Amen.
But we need to decide whether that was about their function as apostles or whether they were functioning as pastors/elders/bishops. The apostles were missionaries. "Sent ones." That's different from shepherds, elders, and overseers, even though some would no doubt have functioned in those roles as well. But I'm reminded of when Peter and Paul taught separately (Acts 20, 1 Peter 5) that overseers should "keep watch over the flock that's under your care, be eager to serve, not lording it over people." It sounds different from the apostles call to devote themselves to the ministry of the word and to prayer in Acts 6. I'm not saying there's no overlap, just that I think there's more depth to how we read these passages and understand them in our context. And I think the context of whatever religious system is most familiar to us tends to distort our readings of the texts about such things, depending on how central pastors are to church life.
I believe that "conventional" is what Yeshua consistently condemned the Scribes and Pharisees for. Is it not? I believe that "conventional church" is what humankind has built, in lieu of the spiritual Temple that Yeshua rebuilt in three days via His suffering, death, and resurrection. When I look at the budgets of "conventional churches", I cannot escape the image of the (second) temple having become such a place of thriving commerce that Yeshua became angered and purged it of the mammon-focused elements. I believe that "conventional church" is what keeps so many from seeing the glory of YHWH through the living body of Yeshua, because it is more of a clubhouse than a haven for edification and true spiritual growth. Just listen to the phrase "going to church", and if you discern truth, you will realize how ridiculous it is. You cannot "go" to "the called-out ones"! As some have stated, Tom Wadsworth has some very clear observations about "church". I am thankful to find that there are others that, like myself, struggle deeply with "conventional church", and a desire to return to the Biblical Church that is demonstrated in the Word.
the idea, of going to a prepared service seems to be counter productive....there is little learning, here.....and often times comes across as a feel good, promotional message....
It certainly can be ineffective. I mean, I still believe there are good conventional churches. But in so many, all the energy goes into the presentational aspects of it. And that falls short. It feels plastic. There are times to have an event where you put on a show. But I think it's so much better when it's conversational rather than presentational. And, to be fair, some housechurches slip into presentational as well. But wherever and whatever the gathering looks like, I think opening scripture in a conversational way is the best!
Roger, We met when you did my dad´s Funeral in Sarasota. My friend believe that Microchurch is unbiblical.
I look forward to talking soon...
@@simplerfaith how'd that talk go?
@@jakesauce9473 It was good. We found agreement very quickly after a few clarifications. :)
That is absurd! The first century church was a conglomeration of micro churches! They met in homes and under trees, etc. The early Christians would be horrified to see what we call”church” today! I am horrified!
Safe , wakeup and Grow up . Was Christ and paul safe .
I don't know how you mean that.
So you need to concentrate on saving souls instead of golfing
I have golfed seven times in my life. And that was 30 years ago. And only because my work was related to that industry. But as for saving souls, I personally meditate on Acts 20:20-28. May it be true.
I got the best of both a weekly gathering of small groups of about 15 people occasionally we have a meal roughly 200 maybe several groups we all meet in one building and all come a variety of Christian denominations.
Yeah, churches are empty most of the week.
True.
I would say all 5 points is reason to HAVE a microchurch, since all you mention in your points is in total contradiction to what the early christians did.
And if it takes "more effort" to gather in ones home i would say it's your love for God that is lacking
"No show", yea, thats really biblical .. lmao
Yeah I don't think I could have been less subtle. 😂 These are all reasons TO do micrchurch.
The Bible lays out the order of the church.
Who is the pastor of your church?
Who are the deacons?
The Bible speaks of pastor and deacons...even giving instructions on how to select them.
All things are done orderly and together.
What you have sounds like a bible study or fellowship group, and there is nothing wrong with that.
But, when you step away from God's order problems arise....we see this when the roles of husbands/wives and parents/children are changed. Jesus submitted to God, wives submits to their husbands, and children are to submit to parents. We, as christians, are to submit to government authority until they supersede God's authority.
The Bible speaks of authority in the church, and we are to submit to that as well. The church is not described as a group coming together all on equal authority. There is to be leadership and order. Of course the leadership is to be held accountable by the members, but the position is to be respected. The pastor and teachers are accountable to God for their leadership. We may not like our president, policeman, school teachers... but we respect the position of authority.
Again, "where two or three are gathered....", yes nothing wrong with prayer meetings, Bible studies, and fellowships. But, church is a little more formal in order.
It's my speculation that many prefer the "micro church" because they do not like the authority and hierarchy and only want to be around a small group of people they prefer and not have to "deal with" those they do not like. I certainly do not mean that non-believers and those with sinister plans should enter the church and be accepted, that's another reason for authority and accountability for those that claim to be born again believers. Of course, those not born again are welcome to come hear the Word preached, but must submit to the order of the church, not be allowed to join until professing faith according to the Bible. Then, they are subject to accountability by the other members.
This is a problem with traditional church for many....they DO NOT want to be held accountable.
1 & 2 Corinthians describes this process. We are to be accountable by the body of believers.
And everyone plays a different roles with equal honor. Some are hands, some are feet, some are eyes....
Our churches are led by elders who shepherd and serve their church. I oversee them. And actually, they require very little oversight.
So, I'm curious, when the Bible specifies pastors (elders, overseers) and deacons (servants), and even describes how to select them, it doesn't prescribe the ministry activities that we commonly think of as pastor and deacon. When you assume that house churches don't have pastors or deacons, what is it that you think is missing? What are they not doing that would qualify them as a pastor or deacon?
I do agree that many resist being under authority. I don't think it's a microchurch phenomenon. In fact, I think it's pervasive in the conventional churches. And next to it is men and women who are ambitious about being the ones in authority. I think many who are drawn to simpler kinds of church (microchurch, house church) have become disillusioned by the systems that reward and tolerate the competition and rebellion. In our churches, at least, I don't pick up on any "you can't tell me what to do" vibes. They're quite healthy in that regard.
Exegesis means to draw out what is in the text, while eisegesis means to read something into the text that is not there. You are interpreting the Bible using eisengesis. You are projecting the modern institutional model back 2000 years onto the biblical texts. The first century ekklesia was not pastor centered or led. I challenge you to find one pastor named in the NT. I would also ask you to study the meaning of the greek word ekklesia in its 1st century context. It actually does describe "a group coming together". The APEST model of Ephesians 4:11ff describes the leadership needed to build up (edify - oikodomé) the church. Shepherd (pastor) is just one of the functions. The modern institutional church has largely sidelined (rejected) the first 3 functions and put all of the emphasis on the office of Pastor. To the detriment of the biblical purpose of the Ekklesia IMHO.
I stopped attending Parish church as their headquarters on line made anti Israel statements. So the parish church will no longer get my donations.
@nfernandez11163 when you say parish church, do you mean a specific denomination like Roman Catholic or Presbyterian, or parish in a more general sense?
@@simplerfaith Presbyterian Church.
It’s not better. It’s biblical. “Conventional “ church; how it’s organized; how it’s led; promoting a clergy laity divide, is just not found in Scripture. I for one cannot participate in a “conventional “ church as it promotes things that are not biblical and this is harmful to a believers growth and the understanding of what’s important in our walk with the Lord. To each his own, but not sure how you can support the muting of the saints in “conventional “ church.
@@rjhinnj thanks for the comment. While I believe conventional church models can be redeemed (and even housechurch models need the same redemption), i totally sympathize with the concern. I wonder if you've seen my video on keeping it conversational? It speaks to what you call the muting of the saint. ruclips.net/video/ltNS3I7i-HY/видео.htmlfeature=shared
ACTUALY REASONS TO DO HOME GROUPS Real 2ed Chapter of Acts HOME TO HOME TO HEAR WHAT Y'SHUA THE MESSIAH IS SAYING
I agree!
Almost dismissed this, based on the title. Glad I stopped to view. All best wishes to all viewers seeking the Truth!
Traditional “church” with a huge building that often is only used for a few hours a week does seem wasteful. Heating and cooling and upkeep is expensive. I’ve considered that with NFL football stadiums as well. Empty…often.
Yeah, and I guess the reason churches and the NFL can afford to waste money on those things is because people still give their money to make it happen. Take away the financial support and football would be played on community fields and church would be in people's homes. And neither would be the same quality "entertainment."
I was going to leave a comment but then I realized that it wouldn't be understood because very few people know what "Church" is.
@phillip_lee and so you decided to leave a cryptic dig rather than just telling people what you think "Church" is? I bet you can do better than that. 😇
Phillip, why not just say we are the 'called-out' ones, since that's what the term means? It's as simple as that. All of the ecclesiastical terminology certainly doesn't help anyone.I think Roger is correct in not leaving what seems to be a cryptic dig. Adding value to the discussion is helpful, whereas just a quick complaint is not helpful, except to tell others that you may, or not, agree.This is a well done presentation on why the early gatherings were specifically not for the purpose of 'worship' as most are today: From ...Worship #1 Why the Early Church Did Not Have Worship Services Tom Wadsworth, former 'pastor' on RUclips - of a 7-part series - ruclips.net/video/z84QJzWlRJc/видео.html
You make me tired . ( Its what Christ wants .
You get tired easily. :) If you're saying microchurches are what the Lord wants, amen.
Not a genuine post. You are a fake friend!
@ollieard1177 it's genuine. As for whether I'm a fake friend, I don't even know you, do I? Have we met?
The ONLY reason people should gather in a 'church' setting - big or small - is to bring glory and honor to Almighty God, the Father, who created us, and to his son - the King of Kings - JESUS CHRIST! Romans 8:9 Now if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. The purpose of getting together with fellow believers is to glorify Christ and celebrate the incredible blessing of being a part of his eternal bride! God lives in the praises of his people! Psalm 22:3 Quote: The Maker of the stars would rather die than live without YOU.
Agreed, but what do you mean by giving him glory? Does it refer to actions we do that glorify him, or are you referring more to the attitude or intention or purpose for which we gather?