Видео

@KennethBridges-j3w thanks for the comment and for pointing to 1 Cor 14. Amen. I believe v26 is best served by the house gathering. But i would be reticent to prescribe or condemn one setting over and against another as if the setting is what enables or disables the fulfillment of v26. It can happen in any building or in no building. As you suggest it is not the building but the assembly that matters. I would personally not concern myself too much with the words we use to talk about ourselves, and would focus instead on what we believe God calls us to. Many have made a lot of commotion about the etymology of "church" and the superiority of "assembly" or whatever. But there really is nothing special about the word ekklesia and nothing particularly wrong about the word church. At best, ekklesia is a people called out of the world by the Lord. But at its most secular, it was just a public forum for Greco Roman citizens. That analogy will fail quickly. Similarly, the word church, at best, is "of the Lord (Kurios)", or "devoted to the Lord," and at its worst means the place of worship as an object that has been devoted to the Lord. Neither are bad until we confuse the building as a temple of God's presence or "the Lord's house." Words are indeed important, but most important is the meaning we give them. Whether we talk about the Lord's people as an assembly or the church doesn't matter, as long as we understand that we are the people of God, his living temple in which the Holy Spirit dwells. Thanks again for adding your thoughts to this and encouraging people to seek the spiritual reality behind our assemblies.

What do you think about microchurches as a legitimate option for gathering?

Well said. I definitely encourage you to visit. You will be glad you did.

I felt like i needed confirmation that i was understanding what God was saying... and what you said did just that.

Amen.

I think it's good to be able to describe our own convictions, anchored in the scriptures, and then listen to others do the same. Unfortunately, these days, so many people only know how to bark and bite.

Thanks for speaking up. I'm interested in what feels like a lack of accountability and a spirit of control. If it's about what to do when (practical matters like when and where to meet, or what songs to sing), that's one thing. If it's about enforcing one understanding of the scriptures (theology, doctrine, dogma), that's another. Some people have very strong convictions about what house church should and shouldn't look like. Sometimes they are the leaders. Other times they are not. But I've known people to part ways over what I would consider practical matters that Would you say it's more practical or theological? As for inviting strangers in, that's fraught with opportunity for good and bad. We need to do it as a matter of Christian hospitality and evangelism/discipleship, but how much do we filter out those who don't fit? Do we let them self-filter? Or do we ever tell people "You're not welcome here"? Of course, if someone is causing harm to others it needs to be addressed directly. What sort of harm?

@@simplerfaith Okay, I'll try to unpack my loaded comments in the most concise way I know how. Firstly, the lack of accountability and possibly the control thing refers to when the founder and leader of the fellowship makes arbitrary decisions for the others without consultation, and when asked why the decision was made states that it is for the greater good. This doesn't actually answer the question of why though. For example, the leader (who has a real heart for the lost, and rightly so) has a desire to pursue wider (meaning global) evangelism which will take him away from the fellowship and the midweek discipleship and prayer meetings often. So he nominated another person in the fellowship to lead those groups in his absence even though this person is not experienced in this, is relatively new to the group, has many personal issues that need ministering to, and really isn't ready for such responsibility. This has proven to be problematic as the four new believers in the fellowship have struggled with the transition to the new leader and have found his approach harsh, judgemental and quite upsetting to them. When this was brought to the attention of the leader of the fellowship he just responded that the man has to learn, but I would ask at what price? Three of these vulnerable ones have sadly left the fellowship because they have been hurt and their genuine grievances have not been addressed, nor has the substitute leader been properly equipped and prepared for his new role, never mind the fact that he has his own hurts and concerns that he hasn't had ministry for. There is so much more I could add but I have made this long enough already. As for inviting strangers in I completely agree with what you say. My concern is that in our fellowship the doors of every group, even intercessory prayer is thrown open to anyone who wants to attend. We have had issues with some individuals trying to control and direct the prayer away from the Lord's agenda to their own, or to another spirit. One individual came for about six months, attended every meeting and made themselves indispensable, only to quietly try and seduce certain other individuals behind the scenes. When one of the new believers saw what was going on they called them out on it, the person became offended, ranted and raved and subsequently left, never to return. These are just a couple of examples of what I was alluding to. I don't wan't to sound unkind or ungrateful. I really love these guys, but I am struggling to know what to do about staying or going, because the leader of the fellowship is not someone who is easy to speak with. I feel torn to be honest. Could just do with some advice.

​@@ziggysam6139 An unhealthy group doesn't just gradually get healthy without intentionality. But it can get healthy. Are your gatherings Leader Focused or Conversation Focused? Leader Focused might be like a small version of conventional church where people gather, sing songs that someone like you pick, and then everyone listens to the leader teach a lesson or something. It can include discussion afterward, but everything is focused on and directed by a person who leads the group. Conversation Focused has a leader who facilitates things, but their most observable role is to ask really good, probing questions and make sure everyone is involved. Of course they have opportunity to teach in those conversations, but the dynamic of the group is different. Leader Focus is not wrong. But Conversation Focused tends to struggle less with power dynamics because the nature of it is that everyone is participating. How would you describe your group? As for the seduction and all that, it's unacceptable. Doesn't even need much more comment than that. Good for them for calling it out, and it's good the offender left. Call it good, consider it done. It may be symptomatic of the greater problem (that you're describing with the leader), in which case it makes sense to work with the leader. If you want to have a private conversation about all this, email me at roger@x242.net.

Where in Florida?

@ orlando

Was the Acts 2:42 church just an apostle study? As for the pastoral epistles, we treat them like we do all the scriptures: Always let them say what they say, and never make them say what they don't. So yes, we try to follow what the scriptures say about leaders. But in my experience, when most of us read those passages, we add our own cultural meaning to titles that isn't in the text.

Take it!

Thank you!

I will most likely vote. If i do, i will vote conservative. But man, I have difficulty imagining Jesus walking into a voting booth.

@simplerfaith think of it this way. Jesus has already cast His vote for Trump. Remember the first assassination attempt? Lol.

@@bigfootnmore6619 He was certainly saved from what should have been death.

We have a lot of young families and singles in our house church.

Our desire for simplicity coincided with becoming empty nesters. In our network, we have churches with kids and churches without. Honestly, microchurch with kids is more difficult than without. But maybe that's because most of us are used to church programs where other people take care of the kids. In microchurches you can't assign them to others. I was recently with a church where the children are asked to read the scripture ahead of time and come with a question that prompts discussion. Those kids come up with some wonderful questions.

We outgrew our houses so we had to move into public spaces; which is Biblical too and we still exist after 34 years.

@@alanlatta9379 The danger with the route you describe is that it can lead a group right back to becoming a traditional church (ie. obtaining a building, hiring a pastor, etc.) Not saying you are doing this but many home groups have. In my opinion the better route is start right from the start with the understanding that when the group begins getting too big to fit in a house (30 - 40 people) you split into 2 or 3 smaller groups. You can still meet all together from time to time but most gatherings will be in the smaller more intimate groups. Our group is just now beginning this division process.

​@harvestvillage695 While I'm an advocate for simpler church, it's good to not go beyond what is written. Nowhere in the scriptures are we told to keep it small. We're not even told to try and strategically plant or grow churches. It's good to have a strategy and to be wise in it. But it's also good to recognize that the strategy typically includes a response to current culture and conditions, which do change.

Love that!

Amen!

Many have been influenced by Frank Viola's book "Pagan Christianity." He does have something good to say. But I personally believe that we can embrace the simpler church model without demonizing traditional churches as much as he does. If God does lead you to leave your conventional church setting and explore the simpler model, my counsel is to do it without condemnation. We are all building on the foundation of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 3). God will judge how we build. Sometimes I think people in the housechurch movement become hypercritical of their brothers and sisters who, for whatever reason, remain in fellowship in more conventional churches. Peace to you as you discern.

Thanks. If you ever get a chance to visit them, they welcome it!

@@simplerfaith We were all set to visit Spring Valley in PA. last year but had to cancel at the last moment. Maybe sometime soon. I know their way of life is not perfect, I'm sure they would admit that, but it would be interesting to experience the unity, efficiency and cooperation as opposed to how the world operates at a purely secular level.

Thanks for the recommendation!

Our churches are led by elders who shepherd and serve their church. I oversee them. And actually, they require very little oversight. So, I'm curious, when the Bible specifies pastors (elders, overseers) and deacons (servants), and even describes how to select them, it doesn't prescribe the ministry activities that we commonly think of as pastor and deacon. When you assume that house churches don't have pastors or deacons, what is it that you think is missing? What are they not doing that would qualify them as a pastor or deacon? I do agree that many resist being under authority. I don't think it's a microchurch phenomenon. In fact, I think it's pervasive in the conventional churches. And next to it is men and women who are ambitious about being the ones in authority. I think many who are drawn to simpler kinds of church (microchurch, house church) have become disillusioned by the systems that reward and tolerate the competition and rebellion. In our churches, at least, I don't pick up on any "you can't tell me what to do" vibes. They're quite healthy in that regard.

Exegesis means to draw out what is in the text, while eisegesis means to read something into the text that is not there. You are interpreting the Bible using eisengesis. You are projecting the modern institutional model back 2000 years onto the biblical texts. The first century ekklesia was not pastor centered or led. I challenge you to find one pastor named in the NT. I would also ask you to study the meaning of the greek word ekklesia in its 1st century context. It actually does describe "a group coming together". The APEST model of Ephesians 4:11ff describes the leadership needed to build up (edify - oikodomé) the church. Shepherd (pastor) is just one of the functions. The modern institutional church has largely sidelined (rejected) the first 3 functions and put all of the emphasis on the office of Pastor. To the detriment of the biblical purpose of the Ekklesia IMHO.

Interesting insights. I would challenge you to say the same things without using the labels. I mean, I believe it's true that liberals/progressives twist the scriptures to make them say what they want. But I think it's probably more helpful to explain the things that are wrong (people who twist the scriptures...), rather than assigning labels to the people who believe the wrong things. But that could very well just be my own ministry. If God calls you to call it out, and you experience fruit in that, then preach.

Why do you assume there's no accountability, authority, scholarship, or tradition?

@nfernandez11163 when you say parish church, do you mean a specific denomination like Roman Catholic or Presbyterian, or parish in a more general sense?

@@simplerfaith Presbyterian Church.

Thank you.

Nope! I haven't heard of it. Do his insights contribute to him not wanting to go to church anymore?

@@simplerfaith no he is all for church ,, but it’s a fascinating exploration of our motives . The title should be why I don’t want religion anymore .

@@fergu588 you're welcome

I love hearing that!

We have some in one of our Sarasota churches from Cape Cod. They have family up there, but no churches currently meeting. Let me know if you'd like start one.

@@rhonddavincent2803 amen. I know there are!

I agree. And there are some wonderful "low church" options as well.

True.

Amen. Truth.

Yes. There are other reasons too that I didn't address here. Sometimes people deconstruct not because of their own sin but because of sins committed against them. It's very sad but understandable, even if it lacks understanding. Maybe I'll address that in another post.

@@simplerfaith Yes. Thanks. There's such a need for correct interpretation and application of the word of God.

I hear you. It's hard to find hope when it seems like what we hope for is out of reach. But that's really the only time we need hope, isn't it. We long for things hoped for. Keep longing. There is consolation and purification in the longing for things we don't yet have. Bow often and deeply and reverently before Jesus. "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." Prayers for reconciliation. God can heal relationships even from the worst hurts.

@@simplerfaith My biggest hindrance my entire life has been “religious OCD”. I’ve feared for my salvation since I was at least 7, probably sooner, and I became angry at God over time, and walked away in confusion and anger. I became abjectly rebellious, and now only want to make it right, but I don’t know if I’m too far gone to be saved. I grew up believing in eternal security, so kept desperately trying to be saved so I couldn’t lose it, but now I think, “Well, maybe I did have it, and I just lost it because I sinned too much, too intentionally, walked away too consciously, etc.” It’s scary. It took someone else getting hurt for me to realize my error, but maybe that’s not even the point. I don’t even know if there actually is biblical hope for me in light of all of the conditions and warnings I’ve read in the Bible. What do you think? Am I overthinking it?

​@powersd453deven I'm sure you can be saved. You're only too far gone if you refuse to turn to Jesus. But i don't hear that in you. Just make sure you're done with the rebellion. Don't play games with God. He knows your heart. Are you done with the things that have brought bruin in your life? The heart of the Father is to forgive you, and to reconcile you to himself. The fact that we are talking is evidence that his Holy Spirit is moving in your heart to bring healing and restoration where sin has brought destruction. If it's your heart's desire to be restored to him, he won't withhold it from you. In fact, he's the one who is "courting" you to want his forgiveness, his restoration, his salvation. He's eager to restore you. He sent his son *not* to condemn the world (you, me), but to save it (you, me). If we were face to face or on the phone i would guide you through this, but in lieu of that my counsel is this: Find a place of solitude. Quiet your heart and be still before him. Open a Bible to John 3 and read verses 1 to 21. Then turn to Psalm 51 and read it out loud. Its the song David wrote when he had committed adultery and murder. Allow the emotions of regret and remorse to be what they are. And then, with a tender heart, ask Jesus to save you -- from yourself, from the enemy, from the sin that has controlled you. Bow your face and confess your sins. Take as much time as you need. "Create in a me a clean heart oh God, and renew a right spirit within me..." The Lord will save you. He will restore you. I also do relationship counseling and can work to restore what's been broken. If you want, you can connect with me through rogershenk.com/counsel. Prayers for you.

@@simplerfaith Thank you, sir. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I’ve been concerned that I can’t truly repent (per Hebrews 6), and I know there is one problem in my life that has taken precedence over God this last year. That one thing is also the same thing that sent me back to Him, but frequently I have been reminded of the reality of my circumstances, and that I’m so selfish, and often make my relationship with God (or lack thereof, depending on how you look at it) contingent on whether or not He brings this person back into my life. It’s hard to find people to talk to about these issues. I am very deeply tormented by a great many things, not the least of which is my sin, and my broken relationship. We’ve been completely estranged for nearly a year now, and the realistic part of me assumes it’s all over. That reconciliation is impossible, especially considering that we haven’t spoken in ten months, and she’s not a believer. But the fact she isn’t a believer, has suffered a lot in life, and that I hurt her spiritually, are all reasons I desire to wait for her to reconcile with her. But I can’t even seem to get right with God. I pray a lot, but nothing seems to change. I don’t know if I should give up or not. Is it a waste of time to continue to pray for restoration with a person who realistically I’ll never see again? I will look into your website. I’d be interested in counseling with you. Do you have any experience with people who have OCD?

I will add, as I am very concerned right now, and am frightened, that I do believe based on my reading of Hebrews that I have gone too far. Hebrews 10:26 says that one who goes on sinning willfully will have no sacrifice left for their sin, but a fearful and terrifying expectation of judgement and fire. I am likewise left with a great fear, and I don’t know if I’m truly remorseful for my sin. I regret it, but I don’t know if it’s for the right reasons. Consider Esau who sought repentance with tears and yet could not find it. I am very troubled. I realize now that many of the Christian influences that I had in my life were slowly removed as I got further into willful rebellion, and that I said I wanted nothing to do with God, but now I hate that I ever did that. I knew my blame, and yet persisted. And now my efforts to truly and humbly repent seem in vain. I feel a discontentment and restlessness that I’ve never known, and something tells me that I’ve blasphemed the Holy Ghost. I want to be saved, and would do literally anything, but I fear it’s too late for me. Even one who wants to return may be denied entry based on my understanding of these passages. I can’t even feel a complete fear that leads me to tremble. Only a numbness. What should I do? I’m afraid God will reject me. I’m sorry to continue to press this issue. This is agonizing me.

You get tired easily. :) If you're saying microchurches are what the Lord wants, amen.

I don't know how you mean that.

If you ever want to talk through things, reach out! Roger@x242.net

@@simplerfaiththank you. I really appreciate that.

@powersd453deven yes! Totally possible. I guess you could say it that the phrase "denial of the self" is similar to Paul's use of "flesh" where it's not the mortal body that's bad, but the inclinations that are opposed to God. We shouldn't get too far away from the truth that this flesh or self is in so many ways opposed to God, always at war with his Holy Spirit. On the other hand, he is actively sanctifying even our desires and imaginations so that we can align our will with his. So "your will be done" always means "I choose your will."

@paulwilliams1469 it's certainly attractive in many ways. But it's extreme. It's not for everyone. Thank God is not the only way to be faithful!

The future because the past! :)

To many conventional churches have weakened the doctrine to the point of just being nice to everyone. They don't preach the word of God any more. I get more out of the weekly bible study group, because we are all serious about it. There's often only 8 of us there.

Yes, home church (or the church that meets in someone’s house) is the biblical idea to emphasize that church are the people gathering at a home and is not the gathering place. Micro church is the new marketing name.

@@damaj6222 Yeah, I almost detoured away from "microchurch" because of the abuse of church marketing in the church growth movement, but then it made sense because it's not really necessary to gather in a home or house. I call it whatever makes sense in the moment. But yes, it's the people!

@henryrogers5500 absolutely! It's not the perfect way or the only right way, but it is a good way and shines in some aspects where conventional models struggle.

That's why we have the Bible. It is our guide to aspire to the biblical model - which is house church, not the institutional church model handed down to us from catholicism (just to be honest). So "issues" simply need to be addressed biblically and lovingly. This can and should happen more effectively in the house church setting.

@@harvestvillage695 Agreed. Amen.

I have done House Church in America and in China for decades, and I can assure you that every horrible thing that you can find in a house church somewhere you can also find in institutional churches. The issue is not whether a church has problems, the issue is whether we are doing Church like the apostles intended us to do Church. If an apostle were alive today he would not recognize what we have constructed end call Church.

@@prettygoodbiblestudies Could be.