Roger you were one of the most brilliant people I know and it is such a treasure to be able to listen to your discourse! This presentation really hit home with me. I consider myself a Christian and I love Christ, have no doubt that the Holy Spirit dwells within me. I have to say that throughout my life what I have doubted is The rigidity that men has created around the worshiping of Christ. By that I mean the artificial constructs randomly used to sometimes determine who is truly a Christian and who is not. One of my favorite saints of all time is Saint Francis of Assisi. He saw God's creation in all things; in the trees, the celestial bodies, The stones and the animals. I marvel at the solstices and at the miraculous workings of nature. But as I've entered into conversations about these things some have said I have pagan leanings!!! I have felt silenced and shamed by this suggestion and over time I have come to doubt whether I embrace Christianity in toto . I believe I have a personal relationship with my Messiah and that he doesn't condemn me for my absolute love of nature, for my curiosity in understanding her center cultures of the past, of the ebb and flow of energy and spirit. I think the biggest takeaway for me in your conversation is what you said about" slow conversation" ! I love slow cuisine, slow stitching, and slow conversation makes total sense to me! I will be more mindful of this when I'm next in the company of somebody who might have doubts about their Christian entanglements, and will hopefully not be defensive when somebody wants to explore mine❤
Thanks. Yeah, the Church's doctrinal gatekeepers (or watchmen on the wall) often seem nervous to me. Their job IS to identify and protect against threats, so, by nature and responsibility, they point and sound the trumpet more than listen and ask a clarifying question. But I'm hoping we can be more confident (ironically) about listening long and graciously. I'm sorry you've felt pushed out. God's creation is wonderful and beautiful. While it's true that many have worshiped creation (Mother Nature) to the exclusion of God, many have also worshiped God by admiring his handiwork. That's a tried and true stream of the christian faith.
Wow... Its so amazing to hear all that...Im so over all the polarizing BS from everyone..You make more sense than anyone Ive heard in a very, very, very, long time...I am subscribed !!
if your friend is using concepts like deconstructionism , he has probably spent too much time in college. He is trying to reason out his faith rather than accepting it in his heart. Yet Jesus said: unless you have the faith of a little child, you cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven. I was listening to a discussion recently about the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. There was a lot of references to scriptures supporting this doctrine. This appealed to my intellect. It wasn’t until a little anecdote at the end of the discussion that I became fully convinced. It crossed that major synapse between my head and my heart. Here is what he said. We were coming out of church on Sunday just after Christmas. As we were getting into the car, we were wondering where Johnny was. This was the man’s eight-year-old grandson. They were looking around when they suddenly saw Johnny running out from the church. He was carrying his new basketball he got for Christmas. When they asked him what he was doing, he replied “I wanted to show Jesus my new basketball.“ it brought tears to my eyes. Oh, but to have the simple faith of a child.
I understand why you say that about higher education. It fits a lot of the time, but it doesn't describe this guy. He is educated, but that was a long time ago, and has nothing to do with his deconstruction. And yes, he is trying to reason out his faith, but I don't think scripture allows for a competition between reason and acceptance. Again, I don't hold him up as exemplary, nor would he want to be.
🙏🏼🔥Jesus spoke about agnosticism directly. John 9 39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. ....Jesus clearly equates agnosticism to blindness and clearly indicates it is not a sin to be blind. However, it is a sin to know the truth, to know right from wrong, and still do wrong. Jesus is the bread of life 🙏🏼🔥
@@Copperhead-EDC Faith is gullibility. Faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have a good reason. Faith is not rational or a pathway to truth.
@@simplerfaith Yes. I have a Hindu friend who I've had long discussions with about his faith. He sounds like a Christian for the most part - he also struggles with the cognitive dissonance created by the non-sensical, illogical nature of the religion - just like the Christians.
In Revelation 2 & 3 Jesus judges his church. Only 14% of it lived in the fullness of his commands, Philadelphia. Another 14% we’re barely holding on to him, Smyrna. Only 28% of his church did he not only not reprimand, but these were the only ones who he didn’t say either repent or you’re out, but also repent or I’ll go to war against you! Yet today the “Christian” church can’t seem to figure out what the deal is. Those deconstructing have no clue that they were never truly in him to begin with, yet they know that what they’re leaving isn’t the real deal. Your sin is better than the world’s sin? Hypocrites! Jesus didn’t come to cover you in his blood so that you can continue to sin! His blood can wash you clean but his Spirit then takes charge of your life from the inside purifying you into his very perfect image. Don’t worry about deconstructionists, they’re at least coming to the truth by walking away from the lie. And that’s actually a step in the right direction. What is the first step? Hebrews 6:2 repenting from dead (religious) works! The best way to help them is to be healed yourself. Because our testimony of him is reflected in every aspect of how we live, and only to a very small degree in what we simply say.
That seems like a pretty narrow view, doesn't it? (Or a broad brush. I can't decide which applies better. Haha.) Personally I see more variety than what you describe. I wouldn't be comfortable saying that deconstructionists are coming to the truth anymore than I'd be comfortable saying that they're hypocrites. Some are. Some aren't. It all depends on where they started, why they started, and where they're heading. Some are deconstructing a false faith because they've begun to realize that they were misled. Others are deconstructing a true faith because they're in rebellion. Still others are dismantling the "wood, hay, and straw" buildings (1 Cor 13) that they inherited from whoever showed them the faith -- buildings that were built on the foundation of Jesus Christ but will be burned up in the judgment. We should all examine ourselves to see whether we are in the faith, and whether our faith is becoming more and more pure and mature. And those of us whose faith is confirmed by it should apply ourselves to gently restoring those who are gently questioning things. But we should also correct and warn those who are wandering from their secure position. It's not one diagnosis fits all.
I wasn’t saying that deconstructionists are hypocrites but rather their disdain for the modern (western) church stems from its largely blatant hypocrisy and ultimately lack of the Spirit moving in it. This all relates to sin and how the vast majority of self described Christians in the west seem to believe that sin is okay so long as they say sorry after. As though purity and righteousness and holiness are words that can be put on them just from bearing his name. How vain!!! As though his power isn’t capable of legitimate transformation. Very few discuss freemasonry’s role of bring false doctrine in the the entirety of Church, Inc (Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc) pulpit, seminaries, etc etc then we have this and people wonder why! 2 Timothy 3: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was. 10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
@@dispensationofgod I hear you now. And yes, people see the hypocrisy in the church and reject it. We are not entirely without culpability. But I also wonder who the "we" is in that. To say that faithful are held liable for the sins of the hypocrites is tough. On the one hand, we're not guilty. We should be calling out sin. On the other hand, we should not be slow to repent in unison, as Daniel did when he named his people's sin as his own, even though he was righteous. I'm curious, what teachings were introduced by freemasonry?
Hahaha they have channels dedicated to that! NAR 7 mountain, distortions of once saved always saved etc. I think the biggest thing the kaballahist freemasons have done have related to how is dealt with and what our transformation should look like. Any Christ that does not give you power over sin is false and if you’re sinning without getting strongly rebuked than it’s not him (Hebrews 12). They sold itching ears, you’re covered in his blood so the Father can’t see you and you can’t stop sinning don’t even try (See JD Farag Calvery Chapel teaching in Hebrews 6:1-8 as a gross example). Of course there are varying degrees of this teaching rampant across much of western Christianity. Plain and simple it is not simply bad teaching, for we are without excuse, our teacher is supposed to be the Spirit. As Paul said you need not that any man teach you. Who reads their Bible, believes it, and allows the Spirit to work it into their lives. Doctrine is experiential, it’s not just the law, it’s not just the New Testament, it’s also his correction in your life. Deuteronomy 32:1-5. Proverbs 4. If we pull back from his teaching, from his correction. Isaiah 28:5-13.
This is just wishful thinking. Sorry, if God were real, and wanted you to know it, he'd make it trivially easy to confirm his existence. As for Scientism (which is a pajorative that no one that is accused of being one, identifies as), it's just intellectual rigor. It's using the tools we have available to analyse our environment. Sadly, that analysis, shows us that your religion is repleat with error.
That's a wonderful example of projection bias: "If God were real, he would do what I would do." But the world is full of people who do things differently than we would. Even an atheist can admit that there is some possibility (even if you doubt the probability) that a God would decide to make discovery one of the greatest joys, and then invite us to discover him through something called faith. Many a scientist has found joy in the intersection of scientific and religious discovery. As for naming Scientism, I don't mean it as contempt, even if I say it with disapproval. But I do mean that many relate to Science in ways that make it seem like a religion. Using your language, many put their faith in intellectual rigor and analysis for the answers to life, just like Christianity puts their faith in the way of Jesus for the same. This isn't a new conflict. I don't expect you to respect our scriptures, but they do record an interesting interaction with the people of Athens. It says that they and the foreigners who lived there at the time spent their time just talking about and listening to the latest ideas. Paul visited and was bringing some new ideas so they invited him to a meeting of the Areopagus to explain. He said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship-and this is what I am going to proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone-an image made by human design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.” And with that, some of them sneered, but others wanted to hear more. It's still the same today. Thanks for commenting. If you care to, I'd be interested in hearing which things Science has proven Christianity to be wrong about.
Roger you were one of the most brilliant people I know and it is such a treasure to be able to listen to your discourse! This presentation really hit home with me. I consider myself a Christian and I love Christ, have no doubt that the Holy Spirit dwells within me. I have to say that throughout my life what I have doubted is The rigidity that men has created around the worshiping of Christ. By that I mean the artificial constructs randomly used to sometimes determine who is truly a Christian and who is not. One of my favorite saints of all time is Saint Francis of Assisi. He saw God's creation in all things; in the trees, the celestial bodies, The stones and the animals. I marvel at the solstices and at the miraculous workings of nature. But as I've entered into conversations about these things some have said I have pagan leanings!!! I have felt silenced and shamed by this suggestion and over time I have come to doubt whether I embrace Christianity in toto . I believe I have a personal relationship with my Messiah and that he doesn't condemn me for my absolute love of nature, for my curiosity in understanding her center cultures of the past, of the ebb and flow of energy and spirit. I think the biggest takeaway for me in your conversation is what you said about" slow conversation" ! I love slow cuisine, slow stitching, and slow conversation makes total sense to me! I will be more mindful of this when I'm next in the company of somebody who might have doubts about their Christian entanglements, and will hopefully not be defensive when somebody wants to explore mine❤
Thanks. Yeah, the Church's doctrinal gatekeepers (or watchmen on the wall) often seem nervous to me. Their job IS to identify and protect against threats, so, by nature and responsibility, they point and sound the trumpet more than listen and ask a clarifying question. But I'm hoping we can be more confident (ironically) about listening long and graciously.
I'm sorry you've felt pushed out. God's creation is wonderful and beautiful. While it's true that many have worshiped creation (Mother Nature) to the exclusion of God, many have also worshiped God by admiring his handiwork. That's a tried and true stream of the christian faith.
Wow... Its so amazing to hear all that...Im so over all the polarizing BS from everyone..You make more sense than anyone Ive heard in a very, very, very, long time...I am subscribed !!
Thank you! Honored.
if your friend is using concepts like deconstructionism , he has probably spent too much time in college. He is trying to reason out his faith rather than accepting it in his heart. Yet Jesus said: unless you have the faith of a little child, you cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven. I was listening to a discussion recently about the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. There was a lot of references to scriptures supporting this doctrine. This appealed to my intellect. It wasn’t until a little anecdote at the end of the discussion that I became fully convinced. It crossed that major synapse between my head and my heart. Here is what he said.
We were coming out of church on Sunday just after Christmas. As we were getting into the car, we were wondering where Johnny was. This was the man’s eight-year-old grandson. They were looking around when they suddenly saw Johnny running out from the church. He was carrying his new basketball he got for Christmas. When they asked him what he was doing, he replied “I wanted to show Jesus my new basketball.“ it brought tears to my eyes. Oh, but to have the simple faith of a child.
I understand why you say that about higher education. It fits a lot of the time, but it doesn't describe this guy. He is educated, but that was a long time ago, and has nothing to do with his deconstruction. And yes, he is trying to reason out his faith, but I don't think scripture allows for a competition between reason and acceptance. Again, I don't hold him up as exemplary, nor would he want to be.
🙏🏼🔥Jesus spoke about agnosticism directly.
John 9 39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
....Jesus clearly equates agnosticism to blindness and clearly indicates it is not a sin to be blind. However, it is a sin to know the truth, to know right from wrong, and still do wrong. Jesus is the bread of life 🙏🏼🔥
Let it go Christians
Denounce your faith in disbelief
@@Copperhead-EDC Faith is gullibility. Faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have a good reason. Faith is not rational or a pathway to truth.
@M3Etasmania I'm curious, do you also feel it necessary to tell Hindus or Buddhists to let it go? Honest question.
@@M3Etasmania All good reasons for you to denounce your faith in disbelief. I know God loves each and every one of his children, forever. Amen 🙏🏼
@@simplerfaith Yes. I have a Hindu friend who I've had long discussions with about his faith. He sounds like a Christian for the most part - he also struggles with the cognitive dissonance created by the non-sensical, illogical nature of the religion - just like the Christians.
In Revelation 2 & 3 Jesus judges his church. Only 14% of it lived in the fullness of his commands, Philadelphia. Another 14% we’re barely holding on to him, Smyrna. Only 28% of his church did he not only not reprimand, but these were the only ones who he didn’t say either repent or you’re out, but also repent or I’ll go to war against you! Yet today the “Christian” church can’t seem to figure out what the deal is. Those deconstructing have no clue that they were never truly in him to begin with, yet they know that what they’re leaving isn’t the real deal. Your sin is better than the world’s sin? Hypocrites! Jesus didn’t come to cover you in his blood so that you can continue to sin! His blood can wash you clean but his Spirit then takes charge of your life from the inside purifying you into his very perfect image. Don’t worry about deconstructionists, they’re at least coming to the truth by walking away from the lie. And that’s actually a step in the right direction. What is the first step? Hebrews 6:2 repenting from dead (religious) works! The best way to help them is to be healed yourself. Because our testimony of him is reflected in every aspect of how we live, and only to a very small degree in what we simply say.
That seems like a pretty narrow view, doesn't it? (Or a broad brush. I can't decide which applies better. Haha.) Personally I see more variety than what you describe. I wouldn't be comfortable saying that deconstructionists are coming to the truth anymore than I'd be comfortable saying that they're hypocrites. Some are. Some aren't. It all depends on where they started, why they started, and where they're heading.
Some are deconstructing a false faith because they've begun to realize that they were misled. Others are deconstructing a true faith because they're in rebellion. Still others are dismantling the "wood, hay, and straw" buildings (1 Cor 13) that they inherited from whoever showed them the faith -- buildings that were built on the foundation of Jesus Christ but will be burned up in the judgment.
We should all examine ourselves to see whether we are in the faith, and whether our faith is becoming more and more pure and mature. And those of us whose faith is confirmed by it should apply ourselves to gently restoring those who are gently questioning things. But we should also correct and warn those who are wandering from their secure position. It's not one diagnosis fits all.
I wasn’t saying that deconstructionists are hypocrites but rather their disdain for the modern (western) church stems from its largely blatant hypocrisy and ultimately lack of the Spirit moving in it. This all relates to sin and how the vast majority of self described Christians in the west seem to believe that sin is okay so long as they say sorry after. As though purity and righteousness and holiness are words that can be put on them just from bearing his name. How vain!!! As though his power isn’t capable of legitimate transformation. Very few discuss freemasonry’s role of bring false doctrine in the the entirety of Church, Inc (Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc) pulpit, seminaries, etc etc then we have this and people wonder why!
2 Timothy 3: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
@@dispensationofgod I hear you now. And yes, people see the hypocrisy in the church and reject it. We are not entirely without culpability. But I also wonder who the "we" is in that. To say that faithful are held liable for the sins of the hypocrites is tough. On the one hand, we're not guilty. We should be calling out sin. On the other hand, we should not be slow to repent in unison, as Daniel did when he named his people's sin as his own, even though he was righteous.
I'm curious, what teachings were introduced by freemasonry?
Hahaha they have channels dedicated to that! NAR 7 mountain, distortions of once saved always saved etc. I think the biggest thing the kaballahist freemasons have done have related to how is dealt with and what our transformation should look like. Any Christ that does not give you power over sin is false and if you’re sinning without getting strongly rebuked than it’s not him (Hebrews 12). They sold itching ears, you’re covered in his blood so the Father can’t see you and you can’t stop sinning don’t even try (See JD Farag Calvery Chapel teaching in Hebrews 6:1-8 as a gross example). Of course there are varying degrees of this teaching rampant across much of western Christianity. Plain and simple it is not simply bad teaching, for we are without excuse, our teacher is supposed to be the Spirit. As Paul said you need not that any man teach you. Who reads their Bible, believes it, and allows the Spirit to work it into their lives. Doctrine is experiential, it’s not just the law, it’s not just the New Testament, it’s also his correction in your life. Deuteronomy 32:1-5. Proverbs 4. If we pull back from his teaching, from his correction. Isaiah 28:5-13.
This is just wishful thinking. Sorry, if God were real, and wanted you to know it, he'd make it trivially easy to confirm his existence.
As for Scientism (which is a pajorative that no one that is accused of being one, identifies as), it's just intellectual rigor. It's using the tools we have available to analyse our environment. Sadly, that analysis, shows us that your religion is repleat with error.
That's a wonderful example of projection bias: "If God were real, he would do what I would do." But the world is full of people who do things differently than we would. Even an atheist can admit that there is some possibility (even if you doubt the probability) that a God would decide to make discovery one of the greatest joys, and then invite us to discover him through something called faith. Many a scientist has found joy in the intersection of scientific and religious discovery.
As for naming Scientism, I don't mean it as contempt, even if I say it with disapproval. But I do mean that many relate to Science in ways that make it seem like a religion. Using your language, many put their faith in intellectual rigor and analysis for the answers to life, just like Christianity puts their faith in the way of Jesus for the same. This isn't a new conflict.
I don't expect you to respect our scriptures, but they do record an interesting interaction with the people of Athens. It says that they and the foreigners who lived there at the time spent their time just talking about and listening to the latest ideas. Paul visited and was bringing some new ideas so they invited him to a meeting of the Areopagus to explain.
He said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship-and this is what I am going to proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone-an image made by human design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
And with that, some of them sneered, but others wanted to hear more. It's still the same today.
Thanks for commenting. If you care to, I'd be interested in hearing which things Science has proven Christianity to be wrong about.