Thanks for watching everyone! Which clones do you think got done justice in Ultimate? What kinds of changes would you suggest for the ones that didn't? List of links: Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock Patreon: www.patreon.com/mockrock Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock
Ken, he didn't deserve a full character, but he's original enough to be distinct and, importantly, dope. As a Ryu main in ultimate, I can play Ken, but he plays separately enough that makes it different, I gotta love what they did with Ken.
Out of all of the clones in Ultimate, echo fighters or not, I think Ken and Dr. Mario nailed the concept of clone characters the most. Ken's playstyle is essentially Ryu taken to a more aggressive degree, and also has moves unique to him, which gives Ken actual substance as a character and sets him apart from Ryu. As for Doc, he is a great example how tweaking attributes can make a character feel like their own thing, even if they mostly share the same moveset as the source fighter. But, I believe that Ganondorf shouldn't have been a Captain Falcon clone in the first place. He should have came to Smash as a representative of The Legend of Zelda, but I can't deny that playing the King of Darkness is extremely fun and satisfying. And just for fun, Funky Kong could've been an excellent echo fighter for Donkey Kong.
Chrom and Ken got it best. As a long-time Fire Emblem fan, Roy's moveset fits Chrom better than it fits Roy. I wouldn't even be mad if Chrom replaced Roy. ...And Ken explains himself.
@@YounesLayachi I actually like the "Yooo!" she shouts when entering the battle. I think she should've said Hi I'm Daisy in her down taunt, the one in which she puts her hands on her hips
ZachHasArrived “Mirror Angel” “Punchy bois” “Tiny green elves” “Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me princess” “One has a not fizzy surprise, another does”
I don't understand how or why Daisy and Richter got to be "glorified skins" with no changes but Alph was kept as an alt. Speaking of, I'd love to see an Alph echo with rock pikmin
MockRock I know at the moment, other than the spirit, there is a mod that replaces the Bowser models with Dry Bowser ones by JoeT. Even makes the fire blue and a new final smash model.
Before ultimate came out, I was wondering how Daisy was going to be different. One thing I thought could be reflected was how both characters have signature jumping abilities that are completely unique to them in the Mario series - Peach can float, Daisy can jump in mid-air. Instead of giving Daisy floating, she could have a third jump and higher aerial jumps. Maybe also faster ground speed, to reflect her sports appearances (... and that she's been classed as a speedy character, while Peach is rarely anything but technical). As it is, Peach and Daisy really aren't that similar in the Mario series. They have different personalities, and they have less overlap in their abilities than the Mario Brothers do. I don't think being near-identical fits well. She's basically a skin, even more so now that different skins can actually be given different animations in Ultimate like with Byleth. I don't know as much about Dark Samus and Richter, but I do agree they could sand to be more different.
The only noticeable difference from Peach and Daisy is the idle animations which Lucina and Dark Pit lack from their original but it doesn’t mean much when their moves and attacks are different from the fighter they are based off.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that peach is stronger than daisy in the sports games, so maybe that could be represented. But I think daisy should've either been a semi clone, or an echo fighter to the extent of ryu and ken. You see, peach has been shown to use more of her heart power than daisy uses her flower power (at least shown in the rpg games and such). So maybe they could be like ness and lucas, where one uses more of their magic, whereas the other uses more physical means of fighting. But both still do both things in their movesets.
@@rodrigomorales563 Typically, Daisy's power stat (or whatever equivalent) is the same as or a little higher than Peach's, as far as I can tell, and which is faster in any particular sports game tends to vary. Magic vs physical... That is interesting, and seems like it would work. Both are extremely athletic and have magical powers, like practically every major character in the Mario series, but really Daisy's athleticism is emphasized more and Peach is much more heavily associated with magic than the majority of the cast.
I just realized that about Byleth. Bowser Jr. Already made sure that each koopaling has a voice, but it never occurred to me that the male and female byleth have different animations... even though I knew they did. 😂
Dark Samus being any kind of clone to Samus is the most crushing thing, because there is absolutely nothing in the Prime series that would give you the impression that it's just a simple clone instead of a totally distinct entity that bears some resemblance. Samus wasn't actually copied at all, her suit was.
It's even more baffling when you consider that Prime's companion title (I'm using that term kind of loosely here, really just based on the fact that both Prime and Fusion released in 2002) introduced a *literal* Samus clone with the SA-X, even though Dark Samus didn't "properly" debut until Prime 2. Of course it doesn't make sense for the devs to make a whole character out of the SA-X, but that's essentially what they turned Dark Samus into.
@@Zitsanrael1117 SA-X is just the power suit with the same abilities, it would have been visually confusing and ultimately pointless to go with that. But I absolutely get what you're saying.
@@YEs69th420 That was exactly my point. Dark Samus is its own thing, but someone who only played Smash and never played Prime would have no idea. Hell, if someone started playing Metroid because of Smash, and they played Fusion before Prime, they'd probably come to the conclusion that Dark Samus *IS* an SA-X.
By a huge margin. You could basically build a moveset for Dark Samus from only Metroid Prime 2, it's a RUclips search away. Add to that some feral physical attacks and you have a character. _Dark Samus literally has a move that is basically Incineroars Up Special_ , but nope, let's make it an echo complete with moves it never used in the Prime games
Lmao they made Isabelle a Semi Echo and all she did in Smash 4 was toss fruit recovery items. If you look at Dark Pit’s Renders you’ll see that he always holds his Staff like it’s part of his moveset but it’s actually locked behind a Smash Ball and it’s a shame too.
daredotbear maybe but Daisy may as well be a skin in that case. Echoes should be based on a character but still have some changes. I think Chrom is the best example of what an Echo should be.
I feel like they could have done the whole mechanic that marth Roy Lucina and chrom have. Simon is the original so make him have a tipper mechanic. The spikeball on his chain does more damage and the chain does less. And for richter give him the treatment that lucina and chrom have balance damage no matter what you hit them with. For cross makes simons send opponents upwards and richter side ways. And make richter slightly faster than Simon cause richter if i believe is younger. So put some of that in.
@@yankee1147 I'm going to respectfully say. Probably not It's not necessary and I think anyone who's know these characters that the reasoning in the vid makes more sense canonically and logically
With the whole Belmont lineage thing Castlevania has; it would make sense that the original practitioner of the move would hold an inherent advantage performing it.
If this was a few months ago he would’ve been r/wooosh glad we’re above that, and hopefully this doesn’t age poorly Edit:Yay, people don’t understand this reply now since the guy deleted his reply 😑
That’s a great idea, but I’m not sure how it would work out in her move set. The float is very necessary to utilize her aerials close to the ground as it basically functions as a short hop extension. Taking this out would probably result in peach being a much better fighter than daisy.
@@annalee4336 I do understand, but the float doesn’t quite represent Daisy very well. A third jump would be nice, but realistically, as an echo fighter, Daisy would not receive a third jump.
"God dammit we got yet another clone stealing a slot from characters who deserve it." >get rebranded as echos "Sakurai can we please get Echo Fighters as DLC?"
Or just have Peach use some moves from Super Princess Peach to change her moveset completely and have Daisy keep the original moveset. Problem solved! 👍
remove float from daisy, and give her upb more vertical recovery, replace turnip with a more consistent tennis racket shooting a tennis ball special, racket spikespot
Utilising the Sm4sh custom moves would have been a great way to give them more variety. If Daisy can use Peach's old turnips by accident, then what is stopping Dark Pit from using the impact orbitars for example?
I mean if Chrom is allowed to have a completely different up special despite being and Echo Fighter, I think Dark Samus should be allowed to have different smash attacks.
@@Zoroark_Master You seem to be confusing "echo fighter" with "skin". In what way are Richter/Simon significantly more different than the Koopalings or Alf/Olimar? Echo fighters should, at the very least, have differnet frame data and hitboxes/hurtboxes
You know what I think would fix Lucina? Give Lucina Chrom's up special. It would: -Tie them together as family -Better reference Awakening since Lucina is actually the one who uses this attack in a cutscene -Further make her distinct from Marth -haha nerf
The cutscene you mean is the one where she loses the mask, right? If so, I think a better reference would be Ike's Up Special, since it looks closer to that than Chrom's.
That actually sounds really interesting... It's hard to imagine Marth's flowy playstyle without the Dolphin Slash but now I'm curious. I'd like to see that in action. I love Chrom's approach as an echo fighter. Echoes having different specials should absolutely be the norm. If it's possible with Chrom, it should've happened for ones like Daisy, Richter, and Dark Samus who're just glorified skins.
Imagining some of these changes is scary but I wish they were real. Imagine samus but she's always in and out of your range with her ground speed. And like you say they'd mostly be number changes so it'd be a nice thing to see without needing a ton of effort. Ideally Nintendo might catch wind and agree 👊😔 I guess what I'm really saying is Hope they see this, bro.
It would be a heavy nerf since float is such a powerful tool. She would need much better physics, better tilts, and stronger moves to compensate for losing it.
I HATE Daisy and Richter in Ultimate. They're basically glorified alternate skins. There are soooo many minor things they could've easily done to make them more different from their counterparts. Maybe make Richter's whip a little shorter, but stronger? Or maybe make Daisy faster, but weaker? The list goes on and on for all the tons of tiny changes they could've easily implemented to differentiate them. That was stupid how they patched out the tiny difference Daisy had with her turnips. I couldn't care less about different idle animations, taunts, or barely noticeable hitbox changes. I prefer actual gameplay differences. Overall, even the definition of "echo fighters" is all over the place. I wish more of the clones were like Ken in terms of how different he is from Ryu. Now THAT is how you make a good and interesting clone character
I agree just straight up copy and pasting characters onto moves sets feels so disappointing. I’ll just say every character that’s a echo I wish were a bit more different. But barely changing dark samus, dark pit, chrom and daisy. Is just depressing.
Daisy should NOT be weaker than Peach... Daisy should be faster and hit harder, but have less air speed and no glide. Her whole thing is playing sports, so there's no way Peach would have more attack power (yes Peach plays sports too, but Daisy seems more dedicated). What would be fitting is if Peach was more technical, while Daisy is more of a rush-down character, giving them different strengths in competitive play, with Daisy being more combo oriented and quicker while Peach makes up for it with her complicated tech options and better air mobility.
@@memoryman3586 I meant that echo fighters should recieve a few of the custom moves from Smash U to differentiate. Buff or nerfs it if they need to later on.
@@memoryman3586 Calling BULL on that considering they put Bayonetta on Smash 4. And I at least am suggesting replacing the clones' moves with some of their Customs from Smash, not bring the whole system back. Changing a few moves ain't gonna screw up the balancing, especially when Sakurai keeps adding gimmick, usually busted characters to the game, be it ones that can do bootleg Action Game combos to a character with 3 versions of his main specials and a 4th that gives him like 20 extra moves to another FGC character that comes with 5 Specials and 2 Supers to whatever you'd call Joker.
I feel like if they added Dry Bowser as an echo, they should remove the tough guy mechanic, make him a bit more floaty, make his other moves faster, and replace Bowser Bomb with a bone-throwing move.
Playstation all stars was a clone in concept and genre, but the 2 games played differently. All stars played more like power stone thsn anything. You are better off saying Cartoon Network Punch time explosion.
I find it surprising that they made a big deal out of Echo Fighters but never expanded on them post-release. I was 100% expecting one or two echo fighter DLC packs to be announced at some point.
I know right? There's only 7 when there could be like 10 more easily. Sakurai said there'd be no more fighters after Pass 2, but I still wonder how doable more Echoes would be after the final fighter? They said Echoes take less time to develope, but that must still be a lot of art and animating to do. It'd mostly be in-house Nintendo characters they already have in the palm of their hand, but there's a few third-party options that'd work well like Shadow/Sonic, Protoman/Megaman, and Jeanne/Bayonetta. I'd assume they'd be easier on the license side because they already have good connections with those companies, given their base characters are already in the game? I'm just spitballin. I don't wanna be a greedy Nintendo fanboy, I'm not expecting it to happen in the slightest, but I'd be insanely excited if they would. I'd most likely buy them all.
The problem with that is Echo Fighters don't work for the DLC packs. Sakurai has specifically said that they dedicate more time and effort into DLC fighters because players have to pay extra for them... which is the exact opposite of what Echo Fighters exist for (to be easier to implement than a fully fleshed out fighter). Maybe if they were their own thing, like the Mii Fighter costumes but with a bigger price tag, then I could totally see them doing that.
"she uses the parrellel falchion instead of the falchion" it's the same sword, it's just because she came from the future there are 2 now since it's Chrom's sword too, and when he was killed she ended up getting it... how she got it is beyond me though
When the Echo fighters for DLC started fading in, can I just say I don't disagree with a single one of these choices and actually would REALLY like this to be a thing.
I always liked the clones strangely and always chose them over the og fighters. But Daisy why? Why couldn't they adjust some stats? It's a disappointment even if it is a fully extra fighter. I actually have a theory where Daisy was different but they realised she was better than Peach in everyway and made her the same as Peach who was maybe closer to Smash 4. Some evidence I have: -Daisy's turnips used to have Smash 4 knockback. -E3 trailer specifically says her moves behave differently, not just for echoes in general after they reveal her. Dark Samus deserves some better changes too even though it's not as bad Daisy. Maybe Richter too but he was such a surprise I don't mind.
YES, finally someone else remembered that they said Daisy would have similar animations, but her moves would have different knockback angles! I was looking forward to learning the differences and maining her, but she's just Peach. 😑
Wilfred Cthulu I agree with what you say, but we recently found out daisy’s turnips have different properties Edit: I just found out that it was removed
I had a very similar thoughts on Daisy: 1. Give her more of Melee Peach's animations 2. Upwards F Smash uses a baseball bat instead of a frying pan 3. Change her down special to Wii Fit's header 4. Change her Final Smash to her special attack from Strikers 5. EDIT: Change her up special to Squirtle's, only using flowers, referencing Flowerbed Return from Mario Power Aces (great idea, Eddy Partida) Cosmetic: 5. Change 4 of her outfits to sports games attire 6. *Buff* one of her taunts to "HI I'M DAISY!"
wanderlustwarrior or maybe make her Up Special like Squirtle’s but with flowers, to resemble her Flowerbed Return move from Mario Power Tennis, the Down Special, albeit Daisy’s never used them before, well, they are plants, and she has flower powers, so maybe they can stay, you know, if she can spontaneously grow flowers in a tennis racket, surely she can make veggies grow out of nowhere too
I've always said "I don't care if they are the exact same move just make them look different" in Daisy's case. Then to see everybody say give her Smash 4 grabs and Melees animations. I feel like i'm apart of a hive mind.
@@CorruptedMaterial The details they did on Daisy's dress are nothing short of amazing. Far away, it looks identical to Peach's, but looking closer, the floral designs start to come in on the gloves, the trimmings, and the more obvious jewelry.
Shieldlesscap it is fun. Try out HDR, all of the clones have been differentiated and the dev has brought back a lot legacy techniques from throughout the entire smash series to the game.
Simon I’m making my own mod rn, it’s like a balance mod but I’m also changing some global stuff to make the game better for competitive. Among other things, I’m: - Adding in some new universal movement options - Making Giga Bowser a playable, balanced character - Making all of the Echoes unique Changing Daisy and Richter in particular is gonna be fun
This how I'd fix Daisy - Make Daisy's up air connect better, reduce knockback to make it a combo move - Make upthrow combo into the new up air - Increase Down Throw's knock back to make it less of a combo move - Fair Spikes, but has lower horizontal knock back than peach's - Daisy's Side B flowers enemies, but if she misses she has more end lag [Flower Bomber from Sm4sh] -Daisy's Parasol has a higher jump, but slower vertical drift
Dark Samus was my biggest letdown in ultimate. While im extremely happy that D-samus got in its dissapointing that they play like the exact same character. I really wish every echo fighter was handled as awesome as Ken.
An echo fighter should be a character that plays very similar to their counter part, but with their own spin on the move set, like chrom. And for daisy they should have given her peaches custom moves from smash 4.
Love your work. Severely underrated. Your youtube analyses are some of the best and comprehensive in one of the more niche genres of videos on the platform. I can't really think of many other content creators that delve into platform fighter theory and design as well as you do. Keep up the good work, man. :D
I know fundamentally Daisy is the same as Peach but for someone who has wanted Daisy in since melee, it means so much to have her playable. The aesthetic/cosmetic differences between just being a peach costume to her own slot, even if they're just everything peach does, is more than enough for a fan of Daisy. Would be nice if they tweaked her numbers tho.
I would love if in a new update they at least add some unique animations for Daisy, I love Daisy and her personality, but in smash she is just as girly and soft as Peach (not in every animation, but you get it, right?). Gameplay wise should be changed for sure, but that isn't enough at least for me.
@@INFERNO95 I had read that Miyamoto fears that a Mario character that wasn't made by him gets more popular than his own characters. Daisy deserves more attention, and for get that attention Kenta Motokura (director of Mario Odyssey) should add she and her empire as an expansion for Mario Odyssey.
@@Nosretep I guess, there is no other reason for me, any other company would over-explode their popular characters the moment they watch people loving and claiming for them, like, at this point is weird that Waluigi doesn't have his own game with an experimental concept just like Warioware.
Smash 4/Ultimate Roy is legitimately a more interesting and likeable character than he is in Fire Emblem 6. Where he is as generic and somehow even more boring than Marth. They managed to make a better character through character animation and about 4 lines of dialogue in Smash than Fire Emblem 6 did with a 20+ hour game.
Heroes also does a Better Roy than his original game!! (Also Because of Ray Chase A.K.A. Noctis and the Master of Masters of Kingdom Hearts...and he voices Roy in SSBU)
To be honest, FE Lord's has never been really interesting or full of personality, he has that personality just because there wasn't any source material besides an scratch of a 3D model for his game on N64, because it there were a single source material take for sure that he would be just red Marth.
@@juanrodriguez9971 Hector, Lyn, Sigurd and Ike are interesting characters in their own right. Chrom, Eliwood, Ephraim, Eirika and Micaiah are all much more interesting than Roy, even if they aren't that great overall
@Juan Rodriguez Play Genealogy of the Holy War, Blazing Blade, Path of Radiance, Radiant Dawn and Echoes and then try to say again that FE Lords lack personality.
Dark Samus was my most wanted characters since brawl. I was so triggered when i saw that they reworked the whole animations but to do to the exact same thing as Samus....
I absolutely love your low-budget recommendations of how to fix the clones. Excellent video. Echoes as a title excited me because it meant they can commit to the idea. I would honestly pay 10 dollars for an echo DLC pack of 5 characters. They're just fun to see!
mostly unrelated to the video but ive always super appreciated how positive of a mindset you give off here on youtube and on twitter, its very refreshing and make me want to strive to make myself more cautious of how i approach things also your edting work is always super inspiring also dark samus upsets me sooo much, since they are so close to being a semi clone and as it is it finally opens the opportunity to redesign samus to finally play closer to her own games, while dark samus keeps the old samus' playstyle tho, i think that the hard work they did do, even if mostly aesthetically, really helps make the character feel distinct, despite being mostly identical
@@MrMockRock You're Cool and also helps with being more kind with Byleth since the Teacher became the Last Character from the Fighter Pass Vol. 1...Because as always said 'I will Open my arms to Any Nintendo or Third Party Guest Character when it enter to SSBU'....I Want a Tales of Character (Be Lloyd, Yuri or Velvet), if the Series Doesn't Get any chance to be in Smash....well, at least showed my support.
I find it odd that they didn’t do these specific things: -Make Dark Samus’s down smash that phazon slam move from when she was an assist trophy -Give richter hydro storm as a final smash while Simon got grand cross, and make richters slide and uppercut go further like in the games he comes from -made Lucina shorter like she is canonically (They made her taller from smash 4 to ultimate for some reason)
My thoughts on echo fighters: Peach & Daisy: like you said, I wished they would’ve made them a bit different stat wise. Unfortunately Daisy doesn’t have much as far main line canon moves to pull from so altering her stats is the only thing sakurai can really do other than giving her the extra mid air jump she has in Mario run instead of the float which she never had anyway. Richter and Simon: Completely agree with what u said. Don’t know much about them so I’ll leave it at that. Dark Samus and Samus: Dark Samus could EASILY be a semi clone at least. I really hope they do this at some point or better yet, make her totally unique. Dark Pit and Pit: DP has potential to be totally unique but I’d be fine with him being a semi clone. bonus: WHY TF IS GANONDORF STILL A FALCON CLONE
They added Richter and Simon as sort of a compromise between the Japanese and Western fan bases. From what I heard, and I don't know how accurate this is, is that the Japanese's reaction to Simon was more similar to the West's reaction to Richter. I think they went with making them nearly exact clones because then they could say they were adding one more character than what they were going to, and appease both fan bases.
Also removing Blue Toad from Daisy, she hardly relates to them, especially this one Blue Toad in particular has never really interacted with Daisy at all. At least replace it with maybe her Sniffit partner from Mario Party 3. Also the parasol, like the float ability, doesn’t make sense either for Daisy and her flower power is very underused to just special effects.
"Dark Pit and Pit: DP has potential to be totally unique but I’d be fine with him being a semi clone." With so many different weapons and proprieties of each in KI:U and the many potential different uses for each weapon, Dark Pit could easily be a unique character. It's the same argument FE fans make when they mention the weapon triangle. Except instead of a triangle for Dark Pit literally has about 9 different types of weapons to choose from.
Something else to note about Chrom is that in his origin game, he actually gets the Aether skill that allows him to perform that iconic move. He also does so in a cutscene once or twice. Basically I’m saying they didn’t just change the up-special “because”. On the other hand, the Aether skill actually performs two hits in Fire Emblem; the first one looks like the “Aether” we know from Smash, and the second looks basically identical to Ike’s side special (and now you know that special’s origin too). And this makes me wonder why Chrom wasn’t given the same side special, and by extension why he isn’t an Echo Fighter of Ike instead.
Ike's side B is actually based on an unpromoted crit animation, and they definitely didn't keep the part where it's Sol *and* Luna for balance purposes, since having a two part up B that heals you would be a bit much, even with how glacial Ike is
Imagine if Chrom's neutral air was more like Ike's neutral air. For some reason that seems fitting to me. Most of all I just wish all the Marth clones didn't have nearly identical side specials...
I think you've got the same take on Echo Fighters as me. I like the idea- embrace the fact that they're clones by being up-front with their implementation and purpose, but give them just enough alterations from their original fighter to make them worth choosing. I just wish the idea was taken a half-step further into full implementation. I completely agree with your video ideas. There's no need to re-invent the characters' movesets; they just need to have some numbers tweaked to make them feel a bit different. Well, okay, I admit I'd like to see some moves completely changed, let's be real. Daisy really could use more athletic or aggressive moves, but I'd be fine with a simple focus on ground movement opposed to floating. Just some number changes. Richter and Simon could totally have their own buffed attacks (vs the other's, maybe not overall buffed). Dark Samus is the one that is already so, so close to being her own fighter, but just isn't there yet. I always liked the idea of Dark Samus's Charge Shot bursting into a fast series of smaller energy balls, like what happens in the Prime games. It could have a shorter range than Samus's, and maybe go at a lower angle in the air or something. Make her float on her jump a bit and lower her ground speed, or make a bomb-jump cause a fake Dark Samus illusion to pop up on her other side that only lasts half a second. Something that wouldn't take an incredible amount of time, but could completely change the character.
Here's what you do with Daisy, reference her playable apperances in Mario Her Debut playable apperance is Mario Party 3 Mario party 3 had a ~Dual mode~ in which characters teamed up with an NPC *Peach* teamed up with Toad *Daisy* teamed up with Snifit So you obviously just change Toad for Snifit right? Well yes, but also no. (but also keep it blue like Blue Toad cause that is visually nice colour wise) See, Another "big thing" Daisy did in Mario Party 3 was slap the shit out of Bowser so he goes flying So here's what you do for Daisy's Neutral B, it's visually as the same Peach's at the start but if something hit's Snifit it'll actually take the hit and Daisy *herself* will counter, same damage, same knockback, but it's a single hit from the Princess. Next comes her apperance from Mario Run, her "special" move is a double jump, which wouldn't be unique for Smash, but we can make it somewhat unique by trading Daisy's Peach Float for a third jump Now for something not quite her own but still fits her perfectly, Peach's old moves, not just her throws, but also her Melee Up Air which was like a football kick and and her Melee Up-Tilt which was a headbutt Now the usual changes you see people make, change the pan in the side smash to a baseball bat, that's a good one. 10% faster ground speed to reflect her stat changes iin the Sports games Maybe we can make her new Snifit feel useful by letting it be her unique Pummel? LASTLY though is the Final Smash, it's no fun just to have Peach's but we don't want something TOO unique for a clone character, but tht just means she should steal *someone else's Final Smash* and I propose.... Snake's, Daisy hops in the Sky Pop from Sper Mario Land and it shoots bullet bills that fly after oppoents at her behest.
It's ironic that Ken and Ryu, who were arguably "Echo Fighters" of each other in their own series, have the biggest distinction between every other echo pair. All while keeping how each of them play in their newer titles (Ken being more explosive and combo focused, with Ryu being more footsie and fundamentals oriented). Go figure.
I am very glad you mentioned that they purposely keep clone characters very similar as to make balancing easier, which is important because balancing takes a very long time.
I thought the princesses' d-tilts were spikes/meteors, since I always hear the sound effect for it when it hits. I've only ever seen it hit an opponent on the ground and launch them upwards, but I would guess hitting someone offstage with it would send them downwards.
@@BronzeAgePepper They are against grounded opponents, which is why their combo potential is so strong. However, in previous games, Peach could spike both grounded and aerial opponents with it, but they, unfortunately, removed it in 4. And it still can’t spike aerial opponents in this game.
I don't play Smash competitively, but Daisy is my secondary, so even if I knew about how identically she plays to Peach, I would probably still prefer Daisy based on pure aesthetics alone. That said, I can appreciate why some would be disappointed over the letdown of potential. 😞
One idea I have for improving Dark Samus is to add her shadow clone ability that creates fakes known as Dark Echoes, which she used in Metroid Prime 3. It would be implemented into her grounded dodges, dodging left or right would have a fake dodge in the opposite direction, leaving it up to your opponent to figure out which one is the real you before the clone disappears either by being hit or being left alone for one second. This would also be on a recharge between uses and would be used automatically. And as a nice touch, the dodge animation when you use the clone dodge would have Dark Samus and her clone cartwheel apart. Edit: should've added this detail in the first place but the Dark Echoes are less detailed and lack a visor, making their faces completely blank, this translates well as a balancing factor in smash so that it's not an opaque 50/50 guessing game for other players. Also, this entire idea is partially inspired by Forsburn's side special in Rivals of Aether.
That's a cool idea, I thought of something similar with Mirror Kirby (not Mirror Kirby as a seperate character, but having regular kirby use more of his game's abilities, like fire and mirror) but it never occurred to me that DSamus could use it just as well. Good idea!
That. Sounds. Absolutely. Amazing. That's the most unique idea for Dark Samus I've ever heard. Wonder how hard the competitive scene would complain about it LOL.
Honestly, I hope they take the same route as how Link relates to Young Link or even Toon Link, off loading a character's old moveset onto what was once a clone so that they can get a brand new moveset. I'd be fine with Dark Samus could staying exactly as she is if it means Samus can get a new moveset that better reflects the in depth precise control she's known for in the 2D Metroid games.
One thing to note, in the Direct that revealed the Belmonts, Sakurai did say that their strengths were the same. They were always meant to be identical in terms of gameplay. I didn't know they changed it so that Daisy and Peach were completely identical now, though. (aside from the hurtbox)
I enjoyed semi-clones, taking a character and swapping around and making certain moves more unique and different was fun. Echo fighters however eeeeeh, some of them don't feel at all different and could have just been costume variances :( Falco definitely felt like a new character despite utilizing the same sort of moves with only a few changes and it made sense considering their source... daisy, dark samus and richter? I mean... very much alternative outfits rather than separate characters :(
There were videos made by DukeofDorks (RelaxAlax's editor btw) talking about redesigning Ganondorf and Daisy which pretty much echoes (not intended) some of what you've mentioned here.
Something I thought about, why not hzving clones that use some of the custom moves from smash 4? It could be an easy way to make echo fighter stand out more just like you proposed for Daisy reusing old Peach animations
I absolutely attest to what you said about Dark Samus. And this is coming from a guy who never considered Luigi a "clone" of Mario. Dark Samus, however, is a the work of a masochist. I can't tell you how much I love and appreciate how unique she looks (she has the best victory screens, don't @ me), but when I actually played her for the first time, I realised she is almost everything Samus is, even if it looks like she should fall slower. I used to wonder what possessed the developers to work so hard on giving Dark Samus only the pretense of individuality; that's how I saw it at first, anyway. Now I am nearly totally convinced that aesthetic differences are all they were going for, as much as I disagree with that design philosophy. Though, like I said, she does look good. Their efforts are can be seen. I just don't know why they can't be totally felt.
As a Smash 4 Marth main, I've grown a big appreciation for Lucina in this game. Something about knowing that my damage output is consistent feels like a very worthy trade off for tipper, so I'd be upset if she was cut in Smash 6.
TripleJump Problem is her damage and knockback is kinda absurd in this game relative to its reproducibility. When a skilled Marth still has lower risk/reward ratio than Lucina, it’s clearly something went wrong
EmblemBlade9 Agreed, you shouldn’t have to pour hours upon of practice just to be a “worse” version of a character that’s virtually the same. They need to make him way less punishing to play and make Lucina’s move much less safe to just throw out compared to how they are now.
Funny thing, thanks to Sm4sh I started to hate Lucina, mainly because was disgusting for me to play against her, basically everyone on that time was a spring with a sword, counters are the kind of move that I hate the most, and personally I always found her voice annoying. It's my opinion and it's unpopular, but that it's how I feel about Lucina. Maybe I should play her game for maybe stop hating her.
@Juan Rodriguez Since Lucina's voice actress also voiced a female character in Saints Row, there is a mod that replaces Lucina's lines with the Saints Row lines. So you can have Lucina say "Come on you p*ssy!" and stuff like that. Maybe that will make you like her more :)
This is probably one of the best Smash analysis videos I’ve ever seen. Most of the ones I’ve seen just seem to bash the characters and rant about them, while you respectfully talk about their play styles in terms of story and personality for the character. Not only that, but you talk about it in a realistic manner, with talking about how the character’s development in Smash ultimately made them into who they ended up to be. And (probably the most important point) rather than bringing down the quality or the potential of each character, you provided ideas that could help solve the solution and possibly make it better. For example, being a Daisy main, I was happy to see that you didn’t bash the character just because she was “basically a clone of Peach”. Instead, you gave possible solutions that would keep her as an echo fighter while being different enough to Peach in not only play style but also personality. And by the end of the video, I was happy! When I watch a typical video regarding topics like this, I usually end up super depressed because of all the negativity surrounding the video. You, however, were optimistic about the topic and I’m super grateful for that! All this to say, thanks for the amazing video! ❤️
Daisy being a very cloney echo fighter is very disappointing and depressing to me honestly. She was not only my favorite Mario character but one of my top 3 favorite Nintendo characters, yet she is basically just Peach as a fighter but a different character? And they patched out some differences between them to make it worse? I was so excited for one of my favorite game characters to be in Smash, only for her to be lowered down to my 7th rank... (she is still my favorite Mario character though)
I would love for Daisy to adopt some of the more aggro moves Peach had in Melee. Like that slap vs kick comparison (though I feel Daisy should be the kicker but either way is fine). She should also have a more "focused" approach to fighting compared to Peach's dainty animations. I'd also suggest the Melee up aerial but I feel like they brought that kick back and I didnt realize. She should also have a double jump over the float, but a less floaty flower parasol over Peach's better recovery. I'd like to see her actually be the more sporty combo pick while Peach is the one who never quite dies only to send you flying with a shower of pick sparkles.
Now that you mention it, pretty much half the roster of melee are clones Mario Luigi, Doctor Mario Link Young Link Marth Roy Pikachu Pichu Fox Falco Captain Falcon Ganondorf
The original character clones are based on don't count, so axe Mario, Link, Marth, Pikachu, Fox, and Falcon. Luigi is a semiclone. Semiclones don't count. All there is are: >Doc Mario >Young Link >Roy >Pichu >Falco >Ganondorf It's not half the roster, though it is a noticeable chunk.
1: Dark Samus in Echoes (and Corruption) tended to have stronger version of your weaponry. When you had normal and charged pellets, she was firing sweeping Scatter Beams. When you only had dinky normal missiles, she was blowing up the arena with Super Missiles. When you got to endgame at fought her again, she was challenging you black holes, light bombs, and space distorting sound waves with a FRICKING LASER BEAM. So the logical thing to do in Smash would be to adjust Samus and Dark Samus' projectiles to cover this; Weaken Samus' Charged Shot while scaling up the damage on uncharged shots and just overall making uncharged shots better, meanwhile possibly upping the damage a bit on DS's, but making so she can ONLY fire it when fully charged. Likewise, remove DS's regular missiles while giving the Super Missiles slight homing to angle towards nearby opponents and removing the stall they have when released so they start travelling instantly when fired. This demonstrates Samus' more varied and adaptable tool kit in contrast to DS' stronger but more specialized one. 2: There are moves that DS SHOULD have, but doesn't use in Prime. As such, they should be replaced. Remove her Grapple Beam and give her a new grab and throws, remove her Morph Ball (which she doesn't use for rolling) and replace it with her Phazon Barrier as a reflector, and remove Screw Attack in favor of the first part of her ground slam from Corruption where she does a Space Jump while cloaked in Phazon. Now she has a more accurate toolset, showcasing the moves she used and not ones she should have in theory, but never actually used. 3: Samus lost some moves between games, so give those to DS, give them back to Samus, or some combination of the two. Samus really feels like she should have her Sex Kick. The new Nair she got feels more like a Dark Samus move.
@@espurrseyes42 She actually does use the morph ball to move in her 2nd fight in MP2 Echoes, but I always thought the barrier made more sense for her. And your idea for her up b made me realize that incineroar's up b would be perfect for her. I also believe the best way to balance, yet change, her charge shot would be to make it to where you have to hold the button down to charge it, but you can move while doing it. But the animation of the shot itself isn't the same either but is closer to the MP3 Phazon beam charge shot. which would look similar to Mii Gunner's fsmash. So while Samus is less mobile when charging, the shot itself is safe. But Dsamus' charging is safe, and the shot itself leaves you vulnerable and has less range, but possibly stronger damage.
@@GBDupree I was referring to the Bombs. I'm clearly talking about specials, and I'm not going to put in the additional effort to call it by its full name when I can just say Morph Ball. "And your idea for her up b made me realize that incineroar's up b would be perfect for her." So the divebomb she spams in the 2nd half of her 1st fight along with Super Missiles? Sounds nice, but on top of me not like recoveries that suck as doing their job as recoveries, that move also utilizes her barrier, so it'd be redundant to use it for both.
@@espurrseyes42 I just thought you meant by "doesn't use for rolling" that you were talking about how she never uses the morph ball to roll around in the Prime series. But I too thought it weird that she uses bombs in Smash when she never did in Prime 2 or 3. Fair enough, you could either use the barrier for both, the Down B would still be useful in other ways. Or you could not use the barrier on the Up B. Or you could keep the down B as morph ball, but replace it from bombs to the dash (I forget what its called). Or just keep the bombs. There are a lot of options to work with, but the Up B being like Incineroar's (it doesn't have to be exactly the same, you could make it where the dive bomb part is a second button press so you don't have to use it, or the dive bomb is a different angle, etc.) just makes sense as a reference and a move that distinguishes her from Samus. But isn't needed.
@@GBDupree Boost Ball, and the Barrier would be a much better option just based on the fact that she uses that in multiple ways in all of her fights. It's weird that she didn't at least have that as a difference what with how iconic of a move it is for her.
I'm so glad you pointed out that the whole float mechanic actually being peach's power and not daisy's. I've been trying to explain to my friends that peach and daisy are two completely different people with their own powers because they think peach and daisy are sisters and share the same abilities. It actually bumbs me out. But I'm glad I can show them this video so you can explain it to them. Thanks man👍
Wow, I’ve been bingeing your videos lately, and I gotta say, I’m really impressed. Not only do I agree with almost everything you say, but it feels very balanced, nuanced, and well researched. I find the amount of effort commendable. You earned a sub from me, that’s for sure.
I found myself playing as Daisy more often than Peach, but I would really appreciate it if her Final Smash wasn't like Peach. It just doesn't fit her character.
I feel like the baseline for making clones Distinct is: - One massive mechanical difference + One move difference (this covers Shotos, Brawler Emblem swords). - Four distinct move differences. (This is more or less where Spacies are. Their parameters are a lot more similar, but they each have a few moves that are so different from each other they never feel the same.) Where that tiny mechanical shift gets you most of the way there, and then just one move has to change to make it a worth while thought process over 'which character is better for you here.' The move differences, no one of them is different enough but if you have two characters with the same base stats (Belmonts, Princesses) but a few massively useful tool differences, means that you can feel comfortable playing both, but on occasion you'll want to counterpick into the other for certain match-ups. That it creates vastly different play experiences making them either 'overall different' or 'situationally different.' They aren't listed as Echoes, but Rats are never considered interchangable because of how big a deal Pichu's min-maxed stats and self-damaging electricity is. Chrom and Roy are more interchangable due to being more similar, but you end up with specific match-ups you would rather do with one or the other. As patches? It's easier to patch parameter shifts than animation shifts (although they should probably do some animation shifts to separate Peach/Daisy's moves), but as I main none of these characters I can't really be more specific. Other than buff Dark Pit, I want to play him more and hear his dope victory fanfare.
Dark Samus does have a few differences from Samus that you didn’t mention. She stands a bit lower than Samus, a few of her kick moves are slightly different, and most notably, her bombs send outward instead of upward like Samus’s, changing how they use them to edgeguard and recover
I absolutely adore your low-budget echo adjustments. I love the idea of echoes and semi-clones as a way to express more characters in the game and would happily shell out ten dollars for a DLC pack of five echo fighters with two or three meaningful differences each (though more is even nicer). I would personally like to see: • Morpeko: Pikachu echo that alternates full belly and hangry modes every 25%. Hangry has increased weight and power, but no electricity stunning effect. Side special is the hamster wheel like the yoshi egg roll but scales in speed and power over time like rob laser. • Shadow: Sonic echo with a homing attack that goes through, not to. He has no ground spin special, but gets a chaos blast from a meter. Possibly change up special to be like Wolf. • Pick any captain as Olimar echo, and wield rock pikmin instead of white and purple. Side smash is replaced with a charging tackle with all surrounding pikmin. • Octoling: Uses the faster but weaker paintbrush instead of roller, which acts like a cross slash. Neutral special uses splat dualies that can be rolled out of and continued easily, plus splatters out a faster combined rate, but consumes ink faster.
am i the only one that really likes ganon's incarnation in smash?like, falcon's moves being reused for him is sad but the devs made a good job at making him a memorable character in his own right(specially by making his moves stupid powerful cuz triforce of power ya know?)
@@J-DawgTBH one day they'll give all the Smash fans what they really want and rework Ganondorf into a faithful representation of the Zelda series, and add Black Shadow as the bigger, slower, beefier variant of Captain Falcon.
@@BronzeAgePepper I HATE this suggestion. It just shows that people don't actually care about Black Shadow (possibly one of the most generic and boring characters they could add from F-Zero I might add), they just want a dumping ground for Ganon's moveset so they can get their fabled "real" Ganon. I'm all for Ganon having some moves altered like Warlock Punch being removed in favor of a reflect or hover move for example, but as someone who plays Ganon a lot, I don't want to play the same "function" on a different character. It's the same argument people made regarding Marvel vs Capcom Infinite when a developer said people won't care about Magneto or Wolverine being in the game because players only care about "functions".
@@mallow2902 People complained about Corrin and Byleth, despite how differently they function from other Fire Emblem characters, because they just didn’t care about the characters themselves
Lucina: Faster Running Speed and Iai Counter(from Smash 4) Dark Pit: Slightly aerial attacks and stronger smash attacks, arrows have a very small chance of poisoning when fully charged. He get's Pit's Brawl Up Special. Daisy: Better Jumper with better Aerials slower but stronger smash attacks. Daisy Blossom does more damage and 10% of healing. Richtor: Faster but weaker attacks l, Up Special isn't a multi-hit attacks. Faster Running Speed. Datk Samus: Stronger Attacks. Phazon attacks can Poison. Neutral Special charges longer but attacks like Hero's Neutral Special. Down Special acts like Corrin's. It creates the same Phazon Tentacles from Smash 4. Even though Young Link and Doc aren't Echos. Give Young Link Fierce Deity and Doc a Mega POW Block for a Final Smash.
i saw the title and immediately thought "oh god he's gonna be one of those winey entitled fanboys who complains constantly and has unrealistic expectations of already overworked devs", but i really shouldn't have doubted u, cuz this was a very well written well constructed critique. U continue to be my favorite smash youtuber. keep up the great work!
@@juanrodriguez9971 Link's Final Smash doesn't pierce through multiple characters and doesn't have a stun effect to keep it targets in place. Link's explodes on contact and can only hit others when they're bunched up together in the blast radius. They're hardly even similar. If anything Dark Pit's is better.
I’m glad you called Dark Samus “it” So many people call it “her” because they don’t realize that Dark Samus is a Metroid and hence, genderless EDIT: typo
The Metroid Prime stole a bit of Samus's DNA along with the Phazon suit and overdosed on Phazon to come back as Dark Samus. That and the fact that Metroids capable of reproducing are called Metroid Queens makes everyone in the Metroid universe calling it a "she" reasonable. And yes, everyone, even Samus's scan logs, refer to Dark Samus as female.
I feel like something as simple as adding a poison effect to all of Dark Samus' attacks would already make her play significantly differently from Samus. Speaking from experience as a Joker main, Eiha is my favorite attack in hit-and-run strategies due to being able to damage the opponent over time while using a different attack. Of course, such a broken gimmick would probably be better for Dark Samus if she were a DLC fighter, as opposed to a clone, but still.
I love this video. I actually had dark pit as a side main in smash 4 and had regularly Samus as a side main in ultimate for a bit. Samus definitely feels different from dark Samus, but I also did role a lot more because I tend to play very defensively so it makes sense that if the biggest difference is the role that it could make a difference for me.
I guess for me I was never disappointed with echos cuz I already assumed they were what was presented to us: glorified skins; characters that we wouldn't get otherwise unless made as echos. Because of this, the fact that Daisy and richter didn't have differences didn't surprise me. Nevertheless, I think your suggestions to bring more distinction are great.
SpotterX4 I just thought that Dark Pit would be the bare minimum of echo fighter differences, as when Lucina was added, Sakurai mentioned that “if they have actual gameplay differences, they get their own character slot”, I thought that Daisy and Richter would get the same treatment, because if not, they should’ve just been costumes
It's disappointing because Chrom and Ken show it's possible for Echoes to have full on different attacks. Even male/female Byleth have different animations and victory screens in the same exact character slot.
Toon link idea: neutral b: Cane of Pacci. Could be Charged like Wii Fit or more of a spacing tool like Luigi Up B: Roc’s cape. Similar to Pit, but maybe don’t go as high. Perhaps you won’t be in special fall after it Side B: Pegasus Boots charge. Similar to Ike Down B: Small shield reflector/Mole mitt swipe. Grab: Gust Jar. Similar to pac-mans Mole mitts could also be used as a tilt like wolf or maybe a smash attack. Just a thought.
February, 2022… Not a single echo fighter was added. Patches stopped. Daisy will forever remain a glorified skin with her own slot. The only echo fighter who is 100% exactly the same as their source and gives NO reason to pick one over the other…
Thanks for watching everyone! Which clones do you think got done justice in Ultimate? What kinds of changes would you suggest for the ones that didn't?
List of links:
Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock
Patreon: www.patreon.com/mockrock
Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock
Ken, he didn't deserve a full character, but he's original enough to be distinct and, importantly, dope.
As a Ryu main in ultimate, I can play Ken, but he plays separately enough that makes it different, I gotta love what they did with Ken.
For a second, I thought this was going to be a list of Links from the game... heheheh
Out of all of the clones in Ultimate, echo fighters or not, I think Ken and Dr. Mario nailed the concept of clone characters the most. Ken's playstyle is essentially Ryu taken to a more aggressive degree, and also has moves unique to him, which gives Ken actual substance as a character and sets him apart from Ryu. As for Doc, he is a great example how tweaking attributes can make a character feel like their own thing, even if they mostly share the same moveset as the source fighter. But, I believe that Ganondorf shouldn't have been a Captain Falcon clone in the first place. He should have came to Smash as a representative of The Legend of Zelda, but I can't deny that playing the King of Darkness is extremely fun and satisfying. And just for fun, Funky Kong could've been an excellent echo fighter for Donkey Kong.
Chrom and Ken got it best. As a long-time Fire Emblem fan, Roy's moveset fits Chrom better than it fits Roy. I wouldn't even be mad if Chrom replaced Roy.
...And Ken explains himself.
Wouldn't dsam be better with a thoron type neutral be based on the clip you showed for it
Your clones are most impressive. You must be very proud.
hello there
You doesn't got that much like here huh
@@fancyboy3806 they're coming
Mockrock: Could we get some more echos?
Sakurai: 200,000 units are ready, with a million more well on the way.
@@trenchkidise okay great what am I supposed to do with that info
Can we lament Daisy not having a “Hi I’m Daisy!” taunt?
I was disappointed she didn't have that as a taunt
Sarasaland Subserviant It the idiot on youtube who does that. She has not say those lines in over a decade.
INFERNO95 When was the last time Richter Belmont said the words “You don’t belong in this world”
@@YounesLayachi I actually like the "Yooo!" she shouts when entering the battle. I think she should've said Hi I'm Daisy in her down taunt, the one in which she puts her hands on her hips
10:28
I hope you're happy?
“The PK Bois”
“The Rodents”
“The Townsfolk”
I’m totally using those.
ZachHasArrived me and my friends call pichu “funny rat”
The marths
I use Villabelle
ZachHasArrived
“Mirror Angel”
“Punchy bois”
“Tiny green elves”
“Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me princess”
“One has a not fizzy surprise, another does”
Roy and blue shit
All these echoes
And then there's Ken... Thanks Ken
Ken and Chrom (to an extent) are basically their own character at this point.
@Grade Fourth Terry isn't even a Capcom Character and is very different from Ryu/Ken
@@anthonygerardotorresgonzal6269 it's just a joke man.
@@banjo9158 not a funny one, you should be ashamed of yourself
@@MrHomelessHobos why?
Smash Bros: The Clone Wars
Had to _strongly_ resist throwing "Attack of the Clones" into the script somewhere.
Ya noooooooooob
Ya noooooob
Ya noooob
Ya noooob
I don't understand how or why Daisy and Richter got to be "glorified skins" with no changes but Alph was kept as an alt. Speaking of, I'd love to see an Alph echo with rock pikmin
Because people believe that daisy is more worthy than anyone else
Nah, keep Alph as a skin, instead add Brittany and Louie as playable echo fighters.... Well, maybe Louie no, Charlie is better.
Yea that makes sense
Primal Cookie Daisy is more popular than both of them.
@@juanrodriguez9971
I want Olimar to have his other alternate colors back. Alph stole Black Olimar which was my favorite...
Still want a playable Dry Bowser in Ultimate. Either an echo or alt would be fine for me.
I'm on board with this.
MockRock I know at the moment, other than the spirit, there is a mod that replaces the Bowser models with Dry Bowser ones by JoeT. Even makes the fire blue and a new final smash model.
maybe dark bowser too
Let's be real, fans would be pissed. If another Mario characters comes out and its not waluigi. People be crying.
MockRock yes
Before ultimate came out, I was wondering how Daisy was going to be different. One thing I thought could be reflected was how both characters have signature jumping abilities that are completely unique to them in the Mario series - Peach can float, Daisy can jump in mid-air. Instead of giving Daisy floating, she could have a third jump and higher aerial jumps. Maybe also faster ground speed, to reflect her sports appearances (... and that she's been classed as a speedy character, while Peach is rarely anything but technical).
As it is, Peach and Daisy really aren't that similar in the Mario series. They have different personalities, and they have less overlap in their abilities than the Mario Brothers do. I don't think being near-identical fits well. She's basically a skin, even more so now that different skins can actually be given different animations in Ultimate like with Byleth. I don't know as much about Dark Samus and Richter, but I do agree they could sand to be more different.
The only noticeable difference from Peach and Daisy is the idle animations which Lucina and Dark Pit lack from their original but it doesn’t mean much when their moves and attacks are different from the fighter they are based off.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that peach is stronger than daisy in the sports games, so maybe that could be represented.
But I think daisy should've either been a semi clone, or an echo fighter to the extent of ryu and ken. You see, peach has been shown to use more of her heart power than daisy uses her flower power (at least shown in the rpg games and such). So maybe they could be like ness and lucas, where one uses more of their magic, whereas the other uses more physical means of fighting. But both still do both things in their movesets.
@@rodrigomorales563 Typically, Daisy's power stat (or whatever equivalent) is the same as or a little higher than Peach's, as far as I can tell, and which is faster in any particular sports game tends to vary.
Magic vs physical... That is interesting, and seems like it would work. Both are extremely athletic and have magical powers, like practically every major character in the Mario series, but really Daisy's athleticism is emphasized more and Peach is much more heavily associated with magic than the majority of the cast.
I just realized that about Byleth. Bowser Jr. Already made sure that each koopaling has a voice, but it never occurred to me that the male and female byleth have different animations... even though I knew they did. 😂
Dark Samus being any kind of clone to Samus is the most crushing thing, because there is absolutely nothing in the Prime series that would give you the impression that it's just a simple clone instead of a totally distinct entity that bears some resemblance. Samus wasn't actually copied at all, her suit was.
It'd still make sense for them to share moves assuming she took the suits abilities as well
@@illford Not really, the only thing they really have in common is using the arm cannon, but their projectiles are completely different anyway.
It's even more baffling when you consider that Prime's companion title (I'm using that term kind of loosely here, really just based on the fact that both Prime and Fusion released in 2002) introduced a *literal* Samus clone with the SA-X, even though Dark Samus didn't "properly" debut until Prime 2. Of course it doesn't make sense for the devs to make a whole character out of the SA-X, but that's essentially what they turned Dark Samus into.
@@Zitsanrael1117 SA-X is just the power suit with the same abilities, it would have been visually confusing and ultimately pointless to go with that. But I absolutely get what you're saying.
@@YEs69th420 That was exactly my point. Dark Samus is its own thing, but someone who only played Smash and never played Prime would have no idea. Hell, if someone started playing Metroid because of Smash, and they played Fusion before Prime, they'd probably come to the conclusion that Dark Samus *IS* an SA-X.
Hot take: Dark Samus' Assist Trophy in 4 is a better representation of her than her Echo in Ultimate.
By a huge margin. You could basically build a moveset for Dark Samus from only Metroid Prime 2, it's a RUclips search away. Add to that some feral physical attacks and you have a character.
_Dark Samus literally has a move that is basically Incineroars Up Special_ , but nope, let's make it an echo complete with moves it never used in the Prime games
@@Telcontar86 Couldn't have put it better myself.
Lmao they made Isabelle a Semi Echo and all she did in Smash 4 was toss fruit recovery items. If you look at Dark Pit’s Renders you’ll see that he always holds his Staff like it’s part of his moveset but it’s actually locked behind a Smash Ball and it’s a shame too.
I’ve been saying this ever since playing her
That's not a hot take. They did Dark Samus dirty.
It's so dumb that they PATCHED OUT THE FEW DIFFERENCES BETWEEN PEACH AND DAISY
ScandalousSam but didn’t they want them to be identical?
daredotbear maybe but Daisy may as well be a skin in that case. Echoes should be based on a character but still have some changes. I think Chrom is the best example of what an Echo should be.
@@GodsNightwolf27 Yes, but in that case why even have Daisy at all?
Ludi ken is the best example
@@ThatNotSoAznKid because daisy
I agree that Dr. Mario has the best back throw animation.
I think the best back throw animation belongs to Sukapon
Me too
Nah, Incineroar's is better
I know. It just so violent. He just Y E E T S you
Incineroar
I honestly want the Belmont suggestions.
Why not both?
I feel like they could have done the whole mechanic that marth Roy Lucina and chrom have. Simon is the original so make him have a tipper mechanic. The spikeball on his chain does more damage and the chain does less. And for richter give him the treatment that lucina and chrom have balance damage no matter what you hit them with. For cross makes simons send opponents upwards and richter side ways. And make richter slightly faster than Simon cause richter if i believe is younger. So put some of that in.
@@yankee1147 I'm going to respectfully say. Probably not It's not necessary and I think anyone who's know these characters that the reasoning in the vid makes more sense canonically and logically
Belmonts with a better recovery sign me fucking up I'd take that
With the whole Belmont lineage thing Castlevania has; it would make sense that the original practitioner of the move would hold an inherent advantage performing it.
Attack of the clones, except now they've got a fancy name that makes people literally ask for PACKS of clones.
*_Hello There_*
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi You underestimate my power!
if they put dixie, i don't care about a pack.
If this was a few months ago he would’ve been r/wooosh glad we’re above that, and hopefully this doesn’t age poorly
Edit:Yay, people don’t understand this reply now since the guy deleted his reply 😑
@@Densester *Don't try it*
I’d like to see Daisy with a third jump instead of the float, like in Super Mario Run.
Agreed!
Ikr i'm not the only one with this idea. And i wpuld like some energetic smash attacks or so...
FINALLY, I'm not the only one with this exact idea...
That’s a great idea, but I’m not sure how it would work out in her move set. The float is very necessary to utilize her aerials close to the ground as it basically functions as a short hop extension. Taking this out would probably result in peach being a much better fighter than daisy.
@@annalee4336 I do understand, but the float doesn’t quite represent Daisy very well. A third jump would be nice, but realistically, as an echo fighter, Daisy would not receive a third jump.
"God dammit we got yet another clone stealing a slot from characters who deserve it."
>get rebranded as echos
"Sakurai can we please get Echo Fighters as DLC?"
With that people finally understood that echo fighterd are just extra addition to the roster... well, some people.
Clones or Echoes DON'T STEAL SLOTS DAMMIT
@@JackOfen Unfortunately there's some people that still don't understand that.
RaidikTheHedgehog lol there’s even an ingame option to mix echo fighters slots with the character they’re based off
@@jackrose3542 that actually sounds cool, how do you do it?
Give Daisy some of Peach's old custom moves, make her a fast faller, faster, and make her fair spike. Boom, a unique character!
Or just have Peach use some moves from Super Princess Peach to change her moveset completely and have Daisy keep the original moveset. Problem solved! 👍
No! Make her completely different!
remove float from daisy, and give her upb more vertical recovery, replace turnip with a more consistent tennis racket shooting a tennis ball special, racket spikespot
Utilising the Sm4sh custom moves would have been a great way to give them more variety. If Daisy can use Peach's old turnips by accident, then what is stopping Dark Pit from using the impact orbitars for example?
Daisy's final smash HAS TO BE her megastrike from Super Mario Strikers Charged. She gets a cristal hand like hello?!?!
I would suggest Dark Samus' smash attacks to be similar to their Smash 4 Assist Trophy attacks since those are distinct and based on history.
Like down-smash
@@goGothitaLOL Honestly I think all of the attacks fit.
Don’t think you understand the concept of echo fighter.
I mean if Chrom is allowed to have a completely different up special despite being and Echo Fighter, I think Dark Samus should be allowed to have different smash attacks.
@@Zoroark_Master You seem to be confusing "echo fighter" with "skin".
In what way are Richter/Simon significantly more different than the Koopalings or Alf/Olimar?
Echo fighters should, at the very least, have differnet frame data and hitboxes/hurtboxes
You know what I think would fix Lucina? Give Lucina Chrom's up special.
It would:
-Tie them together as family
-Better reference Awakening since Lucina is actually the one who uses this attack in a cutscene
-Further make her distinct from Marth
-haha nerf
MulletEagle No
The cutscene you mean is the one where she loses the mask, right? If so, I think a better reference would be Ike's Up Special, since it looks closer to that than Chrom's.
I'm so glad they didn't give her that up B specifically because it would be such a nerf... even tho it would be closer to canon
Hell no. Shulk's would be better.
That actually sounds really interesting... It's hard to imagine Marth's flowy playstyle without the Dolphin Slash but now I'm curious. I'd like to see that in action.
I love Chrom's approach as an echo fighter. Echoes having different specials should absolutely be the norm. If it's possible with Chrom, it should've happened for ones like Daisy, Richter, and Dark Samus who're just glorified skins.
Imagining some of these changes is scary but I wish they were real. Imagine samus but she's always in and out of your range with her ground speed.
And like you say they'd mostly be number changes so it'd be a nice thing to see without needing a ton of effort. Ideally Nintendo might catch wind and agree
👊😔
I guess what I'm really saying is
Hope they see this, bro.
Imagine a moving and faster holy water
And fix Samus's jab.
@@RandomPerson-kz9uf kinda like the holy water in smash flash 2
Hey I doubt it!
Something I really want is Daisy getting another jump and losing/heavily nerfing float. This was in Mario Run, so why not?
It would be a heavy nerf since float is such a powerful tool. She would need much better physics, better tilts, and stronger moves to compensate for losing it.
I HATE Daisy and Richter in Ultimate. They're basically glorified alternate skins. There are soooo many minor things they could've easily done to make them more different from their counterparts. Maybe make Richter's whip a little shorter, but stronger? Or maybe make Daisy faster, but weaker? The list goes on and on for all the tons of tiny changes they could've easily implemented to differentiate them. That was stupid how they patched out the tiny difference Daisy had with her turnips. I couldn't care less about different idle animations, taunts, or barely noticeable hitbox changes. I prefer actual gameplay differences. Overall, even the definition of "echo fighters" is all over the place. I wish more of the clones were like Ken in terms of how different he is from Ryu. Now THAT is how you make a good and interesting clone character
Facts
I agree just straight up copy and pasting characters onto moves sets feels so disappointing.
I’ll just say every character that’s a echo I wish were a bit more different.
But barely changing dark samus, dark pit, chrom and daisy. Is just depressing.
@@uselessbutsexy7746 They could've at least gave Dark Samus the moves she had as an assist trophy,what the hell were they thinking??
Daisy should NOT be weaker than Peach... Daisy should be faster and hit harder, but have less air speed and no glide. Her whole thing is playing sports, so there's no way Peach would have more attack power (yes Peach plays sports too, but Daisy seems more dedicated). What would be fitting is if Peach was more technical, while Daisy is more of a rush-down character, giving them different strengths in competitive play, with Daisy being more combo oriented and quicker while Peach makes up for it with her complicated tech options and better air mobility.
My personal habit is referring to semi-clone characters as "Reverb fighters," to keep in time with Echo fighters.
Is THIS a JoJo's reference?
OrganizedChaos Sure, it is now
OrganizedChaos
Shitty Copyright strikes again.
Ha, I get it.
@@karlbischof2807 Time for ACT 4
You know what everyone forgot existed? Custom special moves. Definitely could have added those to the echo fighters.
Like giving Dark Pit the Piercing Bow and Pit the faster version of his Arm Special.
They didn't do it for balancing reasons.
@@memoryman3586 I meant that echo fighters should recieve a few of the custom moves from Smash U to differentiate. Buff or nerfs it if they need to later on.
@@memoryman3586
Calling BULL on that considering they put Bayonetta on Smash 4. And I at least am suggesting replacing the clones' moves with some of their Customs from Smash, not bring the whole system back. Changing a few moves ain't gonna screw up the balancing, especially when Sakurai keeps adding gimmick, usually busted characters to the game, be it ones that can do bootleg Action Game combos to a character with 3 versions of his main specials and a 4th that gives him like 20 extra moves to another FGC character that comes with 5 Specials and 2 Supers to whatever you'd call Joker.
I feel like if they added Dry Bowser as an echo, they should remove the tough guy mechanic, make him a bit more floaty, make his other moves faster, and replace Bowser Bomb with a bone-throwing move.
And give him melee Bowser's moveset.
Glass cannon Bowser!
Why is people asking for Dry Bowser? I never understood that, he is dead Bowser, why to consider him as an option besides a possible skin?
Juan Rodriguez it’s the same thing with daisy
@@jacksonpotter5773 Daisy is her own character with her own personality, while Dry Bowser it's... Dead Bowser, that isn't a fair comparison tbh.
When the title said “Clones of Smash”, I thought it meant games like PlayStation All Stars.
Nobody even cared about that when it came out 😂😂
Jewlz Cartagena Its a good game dawg
TQ BD I really don’t like it, but to each his own.
Playstation all stars was a clone in concept and genre, but the 2 games played differently. All stars played more like power stone thsn anything.
You are better off saying Cartoon Network Punch time explosion.
PlayStation All-Stars does the moveset and playstyle for characters perfect, SuperBot put a lot of care into that game.
I find it surprising that they made a big deal out of Echo Fighters but never expanded on them post-release. I was 100% expecting one or two echo fighter DLC packs to be announced at some point.
I know right? There's only 7 when there could be like 10 more easily. Sakurai said there'd be no more fighters after Pass 2, but I still wonder how doable more Echoes would be after the final fighter? They said Echoes take less time to develope, but that must still be a lot of art and animating to do. It'd mostly be in-house Nintendo characters they already have in the palm of their hand, but there's a few third-party options that'd work well like Shadow/Sonic, Protoman/Megaman, and Jeanne/Bayonetta. I'd assume they'd be easier on the license side because they already have good connections with those companies, given their base characters are already in the game?
I'm just spitballin. I don't wanna be a greedy Nintendo fanboy, I'm not expecting it to happen in the slightest, but I'd be insanely excited if they would. I'd most likely buy them all.
The problem with that is Echo Fighters don't work for the DLC packs. Sakurai has specifically said that they dedicate more time and effort into DLC fighters because players have to pay extra for them... which is the exact opposite of what Echo Fighters exist for (to be easier to implement than a fully fleshed out fighter).
Maybe if they were their own thing, like the Mii Fighter costumes but with a bigger price tag, then I could totally see them doing that.
Daisy could have had a spinx statue that breaths fire when it gets hit, instead of a blue toad. THAT'S what she's Princess of.
That's why in the game guide it says it's "a toad" instead of "Toad" like it says with Peach
Oh my gosh everyone has so many amazing ideas to make Daisy more unique and this is one of them
"she uses the parrellel falchion instead of the falchion"
it's the same sword, it's just because she came from the future there are 2 now since it's Chrom's sword too, and when he was killed she ended up getting it... how she got it is beyond me though
Ingame its different weapon strangely enough, but not in smash
@@librathebeautifulwarmonk1283 yeah, "it's the exact same sword, but it has different mechanics based on who uses it"
Spoliers...
The original Falchion is Marth's weapon, which is way different than the parallel version. I think that's what he was pointing out.
@@kani- no, it's the same sword, cause Chrom says in game it's the sword the Hero King (Marth) used
it just got redesigned
When the Echo fighters for DLC started fading in, can I just say I don't disagree with a single one of these choices and actually would REALLY like this to be a thing.
I always liked the clones strangely and always chose them over the og fighters. But Daisy why? Why couldn't they adjust some stats? It's a disappointment even if it is a fully extra fighter. I actually have a theory where Daisy was different but they realised she was better than Peach in everyway and made her the same as Peach who was maybe closer to Smash 4.
Some evidence I have:
-Daisy's turnips used to have Smash 4 knockback.
-E3 trailer specifically says her moves behave differently, not just for echoes in general after they reveal her.
Dark Samus deserves some better changes too even though it's not as bad Daisy.
Maybe Richter too but he was such a surprise I don't mind.
YES, finally someone else remembered that they said Daisy would have similar animations, but her moves would have different knockback angles! I was looking forward to learning the differences and maining her, but she's just Peach. 😑
@@djdrizzy9139 I'm really happy I'm not alone here too.
Absolutely the most retarded thing Nintendo has done
that theory would make sense if they didn't ignore Marth and have an echo that does the same with more reward and less effort
Wilfred Cthulu I agree with what you say, but we recently found out daisy’s turnips have different properties
Edit: I just found out that it was removed
I had a very similar thoughts on Daisy:
1. Give her more of Melee Peach's animations
2. Upwards F Smash uses a baseball bat instead of a frying pan
3. Change her down special to Wii Fit's header
4. Change her Final Smash to her special attack from Strikers
5. EDIT: Change her up special to Squirtle's, only using flowers, referencing Flowerbed Return from Mario Power Aces (great idea, Eddy Partida)
Cosmetic:
5. Change 4 of her outfits to sports games attire
6. *Buff* one of her taunts to "HI I'M DAISY!"
wanderlustwarrior or maybe make her Up Special like Squirtle’s but with flowers, to resemble her Flowerbed Return move from Mario Power Tennis, the Down Special, albeit Daisy’s never used them before, well, they are plants, and she has flower powers, so maybe they can stay, you know, if she can spontaneously grow flowers in a tennis racket, surely she can make veggies grow out of nowhere too
That taunt would be *TOO STRONG!!*
I've always said "I don't care if they are the exact same move just make them look different" in Daisy's case. Then to see everybody say give her Smash 4 grabs and Melees animations. I feel like i'm apart of a hive mind.
Agree with all except for outfits. Sport outfits as skins would be amazing but Daisy's dress is pretty accurate.
@@CorruptedMaterial The details they did on Daisy's dress are nothing short of amazing. Far away, it looks identical to Peach's, but looking closer, the floral designs start to come in on the gloves, the trimmings, and the more obvious jewelry.
As long as you don't call lucario a clone I'm good, he has one move like mewtwo and he's called called a clone
Nah, Aura Sphere isn't even kind of close enough to make a clone, more of a spiritual successor.
@@MrMockRock I know! He gets called a clone when he is different in every way
really, i have never seen anyone say that lucario is similar to mewtwo
He only used to be called a clone in the Brawl days, it's been 12 years since then.
What kinda stupid logic is that?
Man, changing these characters in the mod is gonna be fun
Hey I seen you on GameFAQs smash forum
Shieldlesscap it is fun. Try out HDR, all of the clones have been differentiated and the dev has brought back a lot legacy techniques from throughout the entire smash series to the game.
Simon I’m making my own mod rn, it’s like a balance mod but I’m also changing some global stuff to make the game better for competitive. Among other things, I’m:
- Adding in some new universal movement options
- Making Giga Bowser a playable, balanced character
- Making all of the Echoes unique
Changing Daisy and Richter in particular is gonna be fun
This how I'd fix Daisy
- Make Daisy's up air connect better, reduce knockback to make it a combo move
- Make upthrow combo into the new up air
- Increase Down Throw's knock back to make it less of a combo move
- Fair Spikes, but has lower horizontal knock back than peach's
- Daisy's Side B flowers enemies, but if she misses she has more end lag [Flower Bomber from Sm4sh]
-Daisy's Parasol has a higher jump, but slower vertical drift
I agree except that Up Air is perfect just the way it is
Those are amazing ideas
Dark Samus was my biggest letdown in ultimate. While im extremely happy that D-samus got in its dissapointing that they play like the exact same character. I really wish every echo fighter was handled as awesome as Ken.
it was either that or no Dark Samus at all. I prefer having her and tweak her myself with custom balance and spirits than not having her.
An echo fighter should be a character that plays very similar to their counter part, but with their own spin on the move set, like chrom.
And for daisy they should have given her peaches custom moves from smash 4.
I agree
Love your work. Severely underrated. Your youtube analyses are some of the best and comprehensive in one of the more niche genres of videos on the platform. I can't really think of many other content creators that delve into platform fighter theory and design as well as you do. Keep up the good work, man. :D
Thank you, really appreciate the kind words!
Dude, I love how you're constantly trying new things with your editing style like the beginning of this video.
I hope Toon Link's Up Special in Smash 6 is changed to the Cyclone Spin he unlocked in Wind Waker. It'd move along the stage like DK's Up Special.
it was one of his customs in 4, IDK why they didn't make it his default in Ult.
TripleJump god i wish it was in the game. It was a custom move too that i used for that reason alone
Or perhaps the sand rod in Legend
of zelda: phantom hourglass.
He's not gonna get changed because Sakurai loves his clones. We're still stuck with Falcondorf three games after he debuted.
I know fundamentally Daisy is the same as Peach but for someone who has wanted Daisy in since melee, it means so much to have her playable. The aesthetic/cosmetic differences between just being a peach costume to her own slot, even if they're just everything peach does, is more than enough for a fan of Daisy.
Would be nice if they tweaked her numbers tho.
Everytime I see the Sylvanos on the intro I get Vietnam flashbacks because my friend plays Sylvanos and I can't get around his stage control.
You see, all you need to do is not touch the stage at any point or the air anywhere near Sylvanos ever and you're set. Easy!
@@MrMockRock Sounds sooo simple!! I guess the mistake I made was PLAYING the game. I'll try to look out for that next time.
Still don’t get why daisy had to be the same as peach after an update, do they wanted daisy to alt costume for peach?
I would love if in a new update they at least add some unique animations for Daisy, I love Daisy and her personality, but in smash she is just as girly and soft as Peach (not in every animation, but you get it, right?). Gameplay wise should be changed for sure, but that isn't enough at least for me.
Polandgod 75 Fear that daisy would become more popular than peach.
@@INFERNO95 I had read that Miyamoto fears that a Mario character that wasn't made by him gets more popular than his own characters.
Daisy deserves more attention, and for get that attention Kenta Motokura (director of Mario Odyssey) should add she and her empire as an expansion for Mario Odyssey.
@@juanrodriguez9971 So is that why Waluigi and Daisy gets shafted?
@@Nosretep I guess, there is no other reason for me, any other company would over-explode their popular characters the moment they watch people loving and claiming for them, like, at this point is weird that Waluigi doesn't have his own game with an experimental concept just like Warioware.
Smash 4/Ultimate Roy is legitimately a more interesting and likeable character than he is in Fire Emblem 6. Where he is as generic and somehow even more boring than Marth.
They managed to make a better character through character animation and about 4 lines of dialogue in Smash than Fire Emblem 6 did with a 20+ hour game.
Heroes also does a Better Roy than his original game!! (Also Because of Ray Chase A.K.A. Noctis and the Master of Masters of Kingdom Hearts...and he voices Roy in SSBU)
You win the Internet and the FE Fandom Mister!!
To be honest, FE Lord's has never been really interesting or full of personality, he has that personality just because there wasn't any source material besides an scratch of a 3D model for his game on N64, because it there were a single source material take for sure that he would be just red Marth.
@@juanrodriguez9971 Hector, Lyn, Sigurd and Ike are interesting characters in their own right. Chrom, Eliwood, Ephraim, Eirika and Micaiah are all much more interesting than Roy, even if they aren't that great overall
@Juan Rodriguez
Play Genealogy of the Holy War, Blazing Blade, Path of Radiance, Radiant Dawn and Echoes and then try to say again that FE Lords lack personality.
HI IM DAISY HI IM DAISY HI IM DAISY HI IM DAISY
*AAAAAAAAAAAYHAAAAAAAAAAAA*
Blackacre The people on youtube use the phase more than she does.
This comment is sponsored by Raid Shadow Legends
Pika pika
And I.. Freaking adore that :3
Dark Samus was my most wanted characters since brawl. I was so triggered when i saw that they reworked the whole animations but to do to the exact same thing as Samus....
AT LEAST she has unique animations for almost every move
Daisy only has two besides taunts and idle poses
Dark Samus actually is a bit different from Samus
@@Cristeve Laughably. Still the Same character.
I absolutely love your low-budget recommendations of how to fix the clones. Excellent video.
Echoes as a title excited me because it meant they can commit to the idea. I would honestly pay 10 dollars for an echo DLC pack of 5 characters. They're just fun to see!
mostly unrelated to the video but ive always super appreciated how positive of a mindset you give off here on youtube and on twitter, its very refreshing and make me want to strive to make myself more cautious of how i approach things
also your edting work is always super inspiring
also
dark samus upsets me sooo much, since they are so close to being a semi clone and as it is it finally opens the opportunity to redesign samus to finally play closer to her own games, while dark samus keeps the old samus' playstyle
tho, i think that the hard work they did do, even if mostly aesthetically, really helps make the character feel distinct, despite being mostly identical
Thank you, if I can inject a bit more positivity into the Smash community I consider that to be a win!
@@MrMockRock You're Cool and also helps with being more kind with Byleth since the Teacher became the Last Character from the Fighter Pass Vol. 1...Because as always said 'I will Open my arms to Any Nintendo or Third Party Guest Character when it enter to SSBU'....I Want a Tales of Character (Be Lloyd, Yuri or Velvet), if the Series Doesn't Get any chance to be in Smash....well, at least showed my support.
I find it odd that they didn’t do these specific things:
-Make Dark Samus’s down smash that phazon slam move from when she was an assist trophy
-Give richter hydro storm as a final smash while Simon got grand cross, and make richters slide and uppercut go further like in the games he comes from
-made Lucina shorter like she is canonically (They made her taller from smash 4 to ultimate for some reason)
I don't think Simon has ever used Grand Cross in Canon games. Richtor has.
Daisy is shorter than peach
@@Zoroark_Master Yeah she is, her standing hitbox is shorter. He even says it in this video
Smash 4: >Has clones<
Echo Fighters: Allow us to introduce ourselves
DJ Tile Turnip LOL :D
Yay same shit i see everywhere
My thoughts on echo fighters:
Peach & Daisy: like you said, I wished they would’ve made them a bit different stat wise. Unfortunately Daisy doesn’t have much as far main line canon moves to pull from so altering her stats is the only thing sakurai can really do other than giving her the extra mid air jump she has in Mario run instead of the float which she never had anyway.
Richter and Simon: Completely agree with what u said. Don’t know much about them so I’ll leave it at that.
Dark Samus and Samus: Dark Samus could EASILY be a semi clone at least. I really hope they do this at some point or better yet, make her totally unique.
Dark Pit and Pit: DP has potential to be totally unique but I’d be fine with him being a semi clone.
bonus: WHY TF IS GANONDORF STILL A FALCON CLONE
They added Richter and Simon as sort of a compromise between the Japanese and Western fan bases. From what I heard, and I don't know how accurate this is, is that the Japanese's reaction to Simon was more similar to the West's reaction to Richter. I think they went with making them nearly exact clones because then they could say they were adding one more character than what they were going to, and appease both fan bases.
@@DerpyTurtle-ot6rg That Explains a Lot, also Richter is very important to the Plot of Symphony of the Night
Also removing Blue Toad from Daisy, she hardly relates to them, especially this one Blue Toad in particular has never really interacted with Daisy at all. At least replace it with maybe her Sniffit partner from Mario Party 3. Also the parasol, like the float ability, doesn’t make sense either for Daisy and her flower power is very underused to just special effects.
"Dark Pit and Pit: DP has potential to be totally unique but I’d be fine with him being a semi clone."
With so many different weapons and proprieties of each in KI:U and the many potential different uses for each weapon, Dark Pit could easily be a unique character. It's the same argument FE fans make when they mention the weapon triangle. Except instead of a triangle for Dark Pit literally has about 9 different types of weapons to choose from.
@@NatePhan But just as FE obligatory-sword-curse, that will never change, even if it is possible.
Dark Pit & Daisy made it. That alone makes me happy.
Something else to note about Chrom is that in his origin game, he actually gets the Aether skill that allows him to perform that iconic move. He also does so in a cutscene once or twice. Basically I’m saying they didn’t just change the up-special “because”.
On the other hand, the Aether skill actually performs two hits in Fire Emblem; the first one looks like the “Aether” we know from Smash, and the second looks basically identical to Ike’s side special (and now you know that special’s origin too). And this makes me wonder why Chrom wasn’t given the same side special, and by extension why he isn’t an Echo Fighter of Ike instead.
Ike's side B is actually based on an unpromoted crit animation, and they definitely didn't keep the part where it's Sol *and* Luna for balance purposes, since having a two part up B that heals you would be a bit much, even with how glacial Ike is
Imagine if Chrom's neutral air was more like Ike's neutral air. For some reason that seems fitting to me.
Most of all I just wish all the Marth clones didn't have nearly identical side specials...
I think you've got the same take on Echo Fighters as me.
I like the idea- embrace the fact that they're clones by being up-front with their implementation and purpose, but give them just enough alterations from their original fighter to make them worth choosing.
I just wish the idea was taken a half-step further into full implementation. I completely agree with your video ideas. There's no need to re-invent the characters' movesets; they just need to have some numbers tweaked to make them feel a bit different.
Well, okay, I admit I'd like to see some moves completely changed, let's be real. Daisy really could use more athletic or aggressive moves, but I'd be fine with a simple focus on ground movement opposed to floating. Just some number changes. Richter and Simon could totally have their own buffed attacks (vs the other's, maybe not overall buffed).
Dark Samus is the one that is already so, so close to being her own fighter, but just isn't there yet. I always liked the idea of Dark Samus's Charge Shot bursting into a fast series of smaller energy balls, like what happens in the Prime games. It could have a shorter range than Samus's, and maybe go at a lower angle in the air or something. Make her float on her jump a bit and lower her ground speed, or make a bomb-jump cause a fake Dark Samus illusion to pop up on her other side that only lasts half a second. Something that wouldn't take an incredible amount of time, but could completely change the character.
Here's what you do with Daisy, reference her playable apperances in Mario
Her Debut playable apperance is Mario Party 3
Mario party 3 had a ~Dual mode~ in which characters teamed up with an NPC
*Peach* teamed up with Toad
*Daisy* teamed up with Snifit
So you obviously just change Toad for Snifit right?
Well yes, but also no. (but also keep it blue like Blue Toad cause that is visually nice colour wise)
See, Another "big thing" Daisy did in Mario Party 3 was slap the shit out of Bowser so he goes flying
So here's what you do for Daisy's Neutral B, it's visually as the same Peach's at the start but if something hit's Snifit it'll actually take the hit and Daisy *herself* will counter, same damage, same knockback, but it's a single hit from the Princess.
Next comes her apperance from Mario Run, her "special" move is a double jump, which wouldn't be unique for Smash, but we can make it somewhat unique by trading Daisy's Peach Float for a third jump
Now for something not quite her own but still fits her perfectly, Peach's old moves, not just her throws, but also her Melee Up Air which was like a football kick and and her Melee Up-Tilt which was a headbutt
Now the usual changes you see people make, change the pan in the side smash to a baseball bat, that's a good one.
10% faster ground speed to reflect her stat changes iin the Sports games
Maybe we can make her new Snifit feel useful by letting it be her unique Pummel?
LASTLY though is the Final Smash, it's no fun just to have Peach's but we don't want something TOO unique for a clone character, but tht just means she should steal *someone else's Final Smash*
and I propose.... Snake's, Daisy hops in the Sky Pop from Sper Mario Land and it shoots bullet bills that fly after oppoents at her behest.
Oh my god, a Smash video starting up like a VHS tape?
It's like two different parts of my subscription feed have collided.
It's ironic that Ken and Ryu, who were arguably "Echo Fighters" of each other in their own series, have the biggest distinction between every other echo pair. All while keeping how each of them play in their newer titles (Ken being more explosive and combo focused, with Ryu being more footsie and fundamentals oriented). Go figure.
I am very glad you mentioned that they purposely keep clone characters very similar as to make balancing easier, which is important because balancing takes a very long time.
I would've really liked if Daisy could spike aerial opponents with her d-tilt too, like Peach could in previous games.
I thought the princesses' d-tilts were spikes/meteors, since I always hear the sound effect for it when it hits. I've only ever seen it hit an opponent on the ground and launch them upwards, but I would guess hitting someone offstage with it would send them downwards.
@@BronzeAgePepper They are against grounded opponents, which is why their combo potential is so strong. However, in previous games, Peach could spike both grounded and aerial opponents with it, but they, unfortunately, removed it in 4. And it still can’t spike aerial opponents in this game.
@@PascalTyranitar It's not even possible to spike aerial opponents with Mr. Saturn at 250%
Thank you agreeing that Dr. Mario has the best back throw animation in the game
I don't play Smash competitively, but Daisy is my secondary, so even if I knew about how identically she plays to Peach, I would probably still prefer Daisy based on pure aesthetics alone. That said, I can appreciate why some would be disappointed over the letdown of potential. 😞
One idea I have for improving Dark Samus is to add her shadow clone ability that creates fakes known as Dark Echoes, which she used in Metroid Prime 3.
It would be implemented into her grounded dodges, dodging left or right would have a fake dodge in the opposite direction, leaving it up to your opponent to figure out which one is the real you before the clone disappears either by being hit or being left alone for one second. This would also be on a recharge between uses and would be used automatically.
And as a nice touch, the dodge animation when you use the clone dodge would have Dark Samus and her clone cartwheel apart.
Edit: should've added this detail in the first place but the Dark Echoes are less detailed and lack a visor, making their faces completely blank, this translates well as a balancing factor in smash so that it's not an opaque 50/50 guessing game for other players.
Also, this entire idea is partially inspired by Forsburn's side special in Rivals of Aether.
That's a cool idea, I thought of something similar with Mirror Kirby (not Mirror Kirby as a seperate character, but having regular kirby use more of his game's abilities, like fire and mirror) but it never occurred to me that DSamus could use it just as well. Good idea!
That. Sounds. Absolutely. Amazing. That's the most unique idea for Dark Samus I've ever heard.
Wonder how hard the competitive scene would complain about it LOL.
Honestly, I hope they take the same route as how Link relates to Young Link or even Toon Link, off loading a character's old moveset onto what was once a clone so that they can get a brand new moveset.
I'd be fine with Dark Samus could staying exactly as she is if it means Samus can get a new moveset that better reflects the in depth precise control she's known for in the 2D Metroid games.
One thing to note, in the Direct that revealed the Belmonts, Sakurai did say that their strengths were the same. They were always meant to be identical in terms of gameplay.
I didn't know they changed it so that Daisy and Peach were completely identical now, though. (aside from the hurtbox)
I enjoyed semi-clones, taking a character and swapping around and making certain moves more unique and different was fun. Echo fighters however eeeeeh, some of them don't feel at all different and could have just been costume variances :(
Falco definitely felt like a new character despite utilizing the same sort of moves with only a few changes and it made sense considering their source... daisy, dark samus and richter? I mean... very much alternative outfits rather than separate characters :(
There were videos made by DukeofDorks (RelaxAlax's editor btw) talking about redesigning Ganondorf and Daisy which pretty much echoes (not intended) some of what you've mentioned here.
Instead of a float, Daisy should have 3 jumps, in reference to Mario run, were she has an extra jump
Something I thought about, why not hzving clones that use some of the custom moves from smash 4? It could be an easy way to make echo fighter stand out more just like you proposed for Daisy reusing old Peach animations
I absolutely attest to what you said about Dark Samus. And this is coming from a guy who never considered Luigi a "clone" of Mario. Dark Samus, however, is a the work of a masochist. I can't tell you how much I love and appreciate how unique she looks (she has the best victory screens, don't @ me), but when I actually played her for the first time, I realised she is almost everything Samus is, even if it looks like she should fall slower. I used to wonder what possessed the developers to work so hard on giving Dark Samus only the pretense of individuality; that's how I saw it at first, anyway.
Now I am nearly totally convinced that aesthetic differences are all they were going for, as much as I disagree with that design philosophy. Though, like I said, she does look good. Their efforts are can be seen. I just don't know why they can't be totally felt.
As a Smash 4 Marth main, I've grown a big appreciation for Lucina in this game. Something about knowing that my damage output is consistent feels like a very worthy trade off for tipper, so I'd be upset if she was cut in Smash 6.
TripleJump Problem is her damage and knockback is kinda absurd in this game relative to its reproducibility.
When a skilled Marth still has lower risk/reward ratio than Lucina, it’s clearly something went wrong
EmblemBlade9 Agreed, you shouldn’t have to pour hours upon of practice just to be a “worse” version of a character that’s virtually the same. They need to make him way less punishing to play and make Lucina’s move much less safe to just throw out compared to how they are now.
Funny thing, thanks to Sm4sh I started to hate Lucina, mainly because was disgusting for me to play against her, basically everyone on that time was a spring with a sword, counters are the kind of move that I hate the most, and personally I always found her voice annoying.
It's my opinion and it's unpopular, but that it's how I feel about Lucina. Maybe I should play her game for maybe stop hating her.
Juan Rodriguez trust me, you will stop hating her T.T
@Juan Rodriguez
Since Lucina's voice actress also voiced a female character in Saints Row, there is a mod that replaces Lucina's lines with the Saints Row lines. So you can have Lucina say "Come on you p*ssy!" and stuff like that. Maybe that will make you like her more :)
This is probably one of the best Smash analysis videos I’ve ever seen. Most of the ones I’ve seen just seem to bash the characters and rant about them, while you respectfully talk about their play styles in terms of story and personality for the character. Not only that, but you talk about it in a realistic manner, with talking about how the character’s development in Smash ultimately made them into who they ended up to be. And (probably the most important point) rather than bringing down the quality or the potential of each character, you provided ideas that could help solve the solution and possibly make it better.
For example, being a Daisy main, I was happy to see that you didn’t bash the character just because she was “basically a clone of Peach”. Instead, you gave possible solutions that would keep her as an echo fighter while being different enough to Peach in not only play style but also personality. And by the end of the video, I was happy! When I watch a typical video regarding topics like this, I usually end up super depressed because of all the negativity surrounding the video. You, however, were optimistic about the topic and I’m super grateful for that!
All this to say, thanks for the amazing video! ❤️
Daisy being a very cloney echo fighter is very disappointing and depressing to me honestly.
She was not only my favorite Mario character but one of my top 3 favorite Nintendo characters, yet she is basically just Peach as a fighter but a different character? And they patched out some differences between them to make it worse?
I was so excited for one of my favorite game characters to be in Smash, only for her to be lowered down to my 7th rank... (she is still my favorite Mario character though)
I would love for Daisy to adopt some of the more aggro moves Peach had in Melee. Like that slap vs kick comparison (though I feel Daisy should be the kicker but either way is fine). She should also have a more "focused" approach to fighting compared to Peach's dainty animations. I'd also suggest the Melee up aerial but I feel like they brought that kick back and I didnt realize.
She should also have a double jump over the float, but a less floaty flower parasol over Peach's better recovery.
I'd like to see her actually be the more sporty combo pick while Peach is the one who never quite dies only to send you flying with a shower of pick sparkles.
Yeah, Daisy should be more of a rush-down close combat fighter while Peach is a technical fighter with better air speed.
Daisy’s idle animation tho *swoon*
Now that you mention it, pretty much half the roster of melee are clones
Mario
Luigi, Doctor Mario
Link
Young Link
Marth
Roy
Pikachu
Pichu
Fox
Falco
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
The original character clones are based on don't count, so axe Mario, Link, Marth, Pikachu, Fox, and Falcon.
Luigi is a semiclone. Semiclones don't count.
All there is are:
>Doc Mario
>Young Link
>Roy
>Pichu
>Falco
>Ganondorf
It's not half the roster, though it is a noticeable chunk.
Nintendo should have really taken a page out of Metroid Prime with Dark Samus, there is soooooo much they could have done with her.
1: Dark Samus in Echoes (and Corruption) tended to have stronger version of your weaponry. When you had normal and charged pellets, she was firing sweeping Scatter Beams. When you only had dinky normal missiles, she was blowing up the arena with Super Missiles. When you got to endgame at fought her again, she was challenging you black holes, light bombs, and space distorting sound waves with a FRICKING LASER BEAM. So the logical thing to do in Smash would be to adjust Samus and Dark Samus' projectiles to cover this; Weaken Samus' Charged Shot while scaling up the damage on uncharged shots and just overall making uncharged shots better, meanwhile possibly upping the damage a bit on DS's, but making so she can ONLY fire it when fully charged. Likewise, remove DS's regular missiles while giving the Super Missiles slight homing to angle towards nearby opponents and removing the stall they have when released so they start travelling instantly when fired. This demonstrates Samus' more varied and adaptable tool kit in contrast to DS' stronger but more specialized one.
2: There are moves that DS SHOULD have, but doesn't use in Prime. As such, they should be replaced. Remove her Grapple Beam and give her a new grab and throws, remove her Morph Ball (which she doesn't use for rolling) and replace it with her Phazon Barrier as a reflector, and remove Screw Attack in favor of the first part of her ground slam from Corruption where she does a Space Jump while cloaked in Phazon. Now she has a more accurate toolset, showcasing the moves she used and not ones she should have in theory, but never actually used.
3: Samus lost some moves between games, so give those to DS, give them back to Samus, or some combination of the two. Samus really feels like she should have her Sex Kick. The new Nair she got feels more like a Dark Samus move.
@@espurrseyes42 She actually does use the morph ball to move in her 2nd fight in MP2 Echoes, but I always thought the barrier made more sense for her. And your idea for her up b made me realize that incineroar's up b would be perfect for her. I also believe the best way to balance, yet change, her charge shot would be to make it to where you have to hold the button down to charge it, but you can move while doing it. But the animation of the shot itself isn't the same either but is closer to the MP3 Phazon beam charge shot. which would look similar to Mii Gunner's fsmash. So while Samus is less mobile when charging, the shot itself is safe. But Dsamus' charging is safe, and the shot itself leaves you vulnerable and has less range, but possibly stronger damage.
@@GBDupree
I was referring to the Bombs. I'm clearly talking about specials, and I'm not going to put in the additional effort to call it by its full name when I can just say Morph Ball.
"And your idea for her up b made me realize that incineroar's up b would be perfect for her."
So the divebomb she spams in the 2nd half of her 1st fight along with Super Missiles? Sounds nice, but on top of me not like recoveries that suck as doing their job as recoveries, that move also utilizes her barrier, so it'd be redundant to use it for both.
@@espurrseyes42 I just thought you meant by "doesn't use for rolling" that you were talking about how she never uses the morph ball to roll around in the Prime series. But I too thought it weird that she uses bombs in Smash when she never did in Prime 2 or 3.
Fair enough, you could either use the barrier for both, the Down B would still be useful in other ways. Or you could not use the barrier on the Up B. Or you could keep the down B as morph ball, but replace it from bombs to the dash (I forget what its called). Or just keep the bombs. There are a lot of options to work with, but the Up B being like Incineroar's (it doesn't have to be exactly the same, you could make it where the dive bomb part is a second button press so you don't have to use it, or the dive bomb is a different angle, etc.) just makes sense as a reference and a move that distinguishes her from Samus. But isn't needed.
@@GBDupree
Boost Ball, and the Barrier would be a much better option just based on the fact that she uses that in multiple ways in all of her fights. It's weird that she didn't at least have that as a difference what with how iconic of a move it is for her.
I'm so glad you pointed out that the whole float mechanic actually being peach's power and not daisy's. I've been trying to explain to my friends that peach and daisy are two completely different people with their own powers because they think peach and daisy are sisters and share the same abilities. It actually bumbs me out. But I'm glad I can show them this video so you can explain it to them. Thanks man👍
I’d love to see Shadow as a semi clone of Sonic
Wow, I’ve been bingeing your videos lately, and I gotta say, I’m really impressed. Not only do I agree with almost everything you say, but it feels very balanced, nuanced, and well researched. I find the amount of effort commendable.
You earned a sub from me, that’s for sure.
I found myself playing as Daisy more often than Peach, but I would really appreciate it if her Final Smash wasn't like Peach. It just doesn't fit her character.
Not to mention, eating flowers?? Kinda weird haha
@@RacingSnails64 some flowers are edible irl.
I feel like the baseline for making clones Distinct is:
- One massive mechanical difference + One move difference (this covers Shotos, Brawler Emblem swords).
- Four distinct move differences. (This is more or less where Spacies are. Their parameters are a lot more similar, but they each have a few moves that are so different from each other they never feel the same.)
Where that tiny mechanical shift gets you most of the way there, and then just one move has to change to make it a worth while thought process over 'which character is better for you here.' The move differences, no one of them is different enough but if you have two characters with the same base stats (Belmonts, Princesses) but a few massively useful tool differences, means that you can feel comfortable playing both, but on occasion you'll want to counterpick into the other for certain match-ups.
That it creates vastly different play experiences making them either 'overall different' or 'situationally different.' They aren't listed as Echoes, but Rats are never considered interchangable because of how big a deal Pichu's min-maxed stats and self-damaging electricity is. Chrom and Roy are more interchangable due to being more similar, but you end up with specific match-ups you would rather do with one or the other.
As patches? It's easier to patch parameter shifts than animation shifts (although they should probably do some animation shifts to separate Peach/Daisy's moves), but as I main none of these characters I can't really be more specific. Other than buff Dark Pit, I want to play him more and hear his dope victory fanfare.
Dark Samus does have a few differences from Samus that you didn’t mention. She stands a bit lower than Samus, a few of her kick moves are slightly different, and most notably, her bombs send outward instead of upward like Samus’s, changing how they use them to edgeguard and recover
I absolutely adore your low-budget echo adjustments. I love the idea of echoes and semi-clones as a way to express more characters in the game and would happily shell out ten dollars for a DLC pack of five echo fighters with two or three meaningful differences each (though more is even nicer).
I would personally like to see:
• Morpeko: Pikachu echo that alternates full belly and hangry modes every 25%. Hangry has increased weight and power, but no electricity stunning effect. Side special is the hamster wheel like the yoshi egg roll but scales in speed and power over time like rob laser.
• Shadow: Sonic echo with a homing attack that goes through, not to. He has no ground spin special, but gets a chaos blast from a meter. Possibly change up special to be like Wolf.
• Pick any captain as Olimar echo, and wield rock pikmin instead of white and purple. Side smash is replaced with a charging tackle with all surrounding pikmin.
• Octoling: Uses the faster but weaker paintbrush instead of roller, which acts like a cross slash. Neutral special uses splat dualies that can be rolled out of and continued easily, plus splatters out a faster combined rate, but consumes ink faster.
am i the only one that really likes ganon's incarnation in smash?like, falcon's moves being reused for him is sad but the devs made a good job at making him a memorable character in his own right(specially by making his moves stupid powerful cuz triforce of power ya know?)
He's still really fun and all but he isn't a good representation of Ganon from the Zelda series.
@@J-DawgTBH one day they'll give all the Smash fans what they really want and rework Ganondorf into a faithful representation of the Zelda series, and add Black Shadow as the bigger, slower, beefier variant of Captain Falcon.
@@BronzeAgePepper I HATE this suggestion. It just shows that people don't actually care about Black Shadow (possibly one of the most generic and boring characters they could add from F-Zero I might add), they just want a dumping ground for Ganon's moveset so they can get their fabled "real" Ganon. I'm all for Ganon having some moves altered like Warlock Punch being removed in favor of a reflect or hover move for example, but as someone who plays Ganon a lot, I don't want to play the same "function" on a different character. It's the same argument people made regarding Marvel vs Capcom Infinite when a developer said people won't care about Magneto or Wolverine being in the game because players only care about "functions".
@@mallow2902 People complained about Corrin and Byleth, despite how differently they function from other Fire Emblem characters, because they just didn’t care about the characters themselves
"Lucina pretents to be Marth" on the fire emblema awakening, she fights Luke chrome using the same up b
The good, the bad, and the . . .
*HI, I'M DAISY!*
I came her expecting you to rip on Lucina, but I was pleasantly surprised
"Dark PIt........I main this character." I love this line lol
Lucina: Faster Running Speed and Iai Counter(from Smash 4)
Dark Pit: Slightly aerial attacks and stronger smash attacks, arrows have a very small chance of poisoning when fully charged. He get's Pit's Brawl Up Special.
Daisy: Better Jumper with better Aerials slower but stronger smash attacks. Daisy Blossom does more damage and 10% of healing.
Richtor: Faster but weaker attacks l, Up Special isn't a multi-hit attacks. Faster Running Speed.
Datk Samus: Stronger Attacks. Phazon attacks can Poison. Neutral Special charges longer but attacks like Hero's Neutral Special.
Down Special acts like Corrin's. It creates the same Phazon Tentacles from Smash 4.
Even though Young Link and Doc aren't Echos. Give Young Link Fierce Deity and Doc a Mega POW Block for a Final Smash.
I main an echo (daisy) and all I gotta say is I was just glad she made it i thought peach was gonna cosplay her forever
i saw the title and immediately thought "oh god he's gonna be one of those winey entitled fanboys who complains constantly and has unrealistic expectations of already overworked devs", but i really shouldn't have doubted u, cuz this was a very well written well constructed critique. U continue to be my favorite smash youtuber. keep up the great work!
Pit and Dark pit also have different Final smashes!
(but that is only relevant for the casual community)
Pit now uses the Lightning Chariot and Dark Pit (Pittoo) still uses His One-Hit KO Dark Staff!
@@anthonygerardotorresgonzal6269 Which is basically Link's final smash
@@juanrodriguez9971 Link's Final Smash doesn't pierce through multiple characters and doesn't have a stun effect to keep it targets in place. Link's explodes on contact and can only hit others when they're bunched up together in the blast radius. They're hardly even similar. If anything Dark Pit's is better.
Roy and Chrom each have a unique Final Smash as well.
Oh and Ken has two unique ones.
I’m glad you called Dark Samus “it”
So many people call it “her” because they don’t realize that Dark Samus is a Metroid and hence, genderless
EDIT: typo
The first draft of the script did use "her," I realized that didn't make a whole lot of sense and changed it just before recording started!
You know, in the Metroid games the federation refers to DS as a "she".
Juan Rodriguez yeah but we know Dark Samus is the Metroid Prime, which has no biological sex. The Federation doesn’t know that in-universe.
my headcanon is dark samus is a female
therefore
waifu
The Metroid Prime stole a bit of Samus's DNA along with the Phazon suit and overdosed on Phazon to come back as Dark Samus. That and the fact that Metroids capable of reproducing are called Metroid Queens makes everyone in the Metroid universe calling it a "she" reasonable. And yes, everyone, even Samus's scan logs, refer to Dark Samus as female.
I feel like something as simple as adding a poison effect to all of Dark Samus' attacks would already make her play significantly differently from Samus. Speaking from experience as a Joker main, Eiha is my favorite attack in hit-and-run strategies due to being able to damage the opponent over time while using a different attack. Of course, such a broken gimmick would probably be better for Dark Samus if she were a DLC fighter, as opposed to a clone, but still.
The way you said “Let’s Talk” sounded like a disappointed dad
I love this video. I actually had dark pit as a side main in smash 4 and had regularly Samus as a side main in ultimate for a bit. Samus definitely feels different from dark Samus, but I also did role a lot more because I tend to play very defensively so it makes sense that if the biggest difference is the role that it could make a difference for me.
I guess for me I was never disappointed with echos cuz I already assumed they were what was presented to us: glorified skins; characters that we wouldn't get otherwise unless made as echos. Because of this, the fact that Daisy and richter didn't have differences didn't surprise me. Nevertheless, I think your suggestions to bring more distinction are great.
SpotterX4 I just thought that Dark Pit would be the bare minimum of echo fighter differences, as when Lucina was added, Sakurai mentioned that “if they have actual gameplay differences, they get their own character slot”, I thought that Daisy and Richter would get the same treatment, because if not, they should’ve just been costumes
It's disappointing because Chrom and Ken show it's possible for Echoes to have full on different attacks. Even male/female Byleth have different animations and victory screens in the same exact character slot.
WOW, your take on richter an dark pit was perfect. Very smart idea
You made me check my phone because HI I'M DAISY is my notification sound. You win this round.
Daisy for life
Toon link idea:
neutral b: Cane of Pacci. Could be Charged like Wii Fit or more of a spacing tool like Luigi
Up B: Roc’s cape. Similar to Pit, but maybe don’t go as high. Perhaps you won’t be in special fall after it
Side B: Pegasus Boots charge. Similar to Ike
Down B: Small shield reflector/Mole mitt swipe.
Grab: Gust Jar. Similar to pac-mans
Mole mitts could also be used as a tilt like wolf or maybe a smash attack. Just a thought.
February, 2022…
Not a single echo fighter was added.
Patches stopped.
Daisy will forever remain a glorified skin with her own slot. The only echo fighter who is 100% exactly the same as their source and gives NO reason to pick one over the other…