EP 119: Who Gets Embroiled in the Gender Debates
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- In this episode, Stella & Sasha explore the different kinds of ways people engage in the gender debates. You will hear them touch on the various kinds of characters and/or archetypes of people who imbed themselves deeply into the “gender world.” And you may also notice that there are many varieties of voices not referenced as well. Today’s episode takes shape a little differently than a typical Gender: A Wider Lens conversation in that they cover so many categories all at once, but at a very light level, and don’t have the opportunity to go too far in-depth into any of the concepts touched on. This discussion barely begins to scratch the surface of all there is to talk about here.
Upon reflection after recording, Sasha shares her sense of apprehension in releasing the episode at all, only to come to the conclusion that in fact, these ideas require much more expansive exploration, after all. Stella acknowledges that there’s no denying the vastly compelling nature of the subject of gender and digs into the tendency for some individuals to become overly fixated on gender-related topics.
This episode emphasizes that while engaging in gender debates can be important, it’s essential to assess one’s level of involvement with its alignment to service to oneself, one’s community, and one’s family in productive and healthy ways. Excessive preoccupation with gender can be distressing for some individuals who never intended to be consumed by it, so it’s important to seek balance, remain mindful, and sustain intellectual curiosity without neglecting emotional well-being.
In this episode, you will hear Sasha & Stella speak about “Killarney,” in reference to Genspect’s: The Bigger Picture conference. Please note this episode was recorded before the conference and was released after the events referenced in the episode took place. Please visit • Bigger Picture Confere... to view recordings from the conference.
Links:
Episode mentioned about the affirming parent:
Episode 109 - What If We Are All Wrong: A Mother’s Regret with Rose
gender-a-wider...
A Catholic Response to Gender Identity Theory
files.ecatholi...
If you liked this episode, more episodes you might find interesting:
Episode 9 - The Politicization of Gender
• EPISODE 9 - The Politi...
Episode 10 - Queer Theory: Subverting Life's Categories
• EPISODE 10 - Queer The...
Episode 31 - Silencing Thought: A Conversation with Heather Brunskell-Evans
• EPISODE 31 - Silencing...
Episode 72 - Disenchanted by Transition
• EPISODE 72 - Disenchan...
Episode 84 - Denise Caignon from 4thWaveNow: The View from Behind the Scenes
• EPISODE 84 - Denise Ca...
Episode 98 - StoicMom: Using her Child’s Trans Identity for Personal Individuation
• EPISODE 98 - StoicMom ...
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All I know is the importance of taking a break from this. I can become obsessed no matter how important it is.
I fell down this rabbit hole as a nearly 60yr old female. I am a nurse and live in Australia and am horrified what has been done to young people's bodies in the so called name of health care! This is not health care - it's barbaric body mutilation! My own children believe the lie and are supportive of friends who are going down this road. So far they have not declared any changes for themselves and I pray that they never will. My heart goes out to any parent who is having to face this issue. I am so appreciative of your channel as I have learnt so much from both of you and your guests. I recently gave a talk at our church detailing the history and the effects on the body of transitioning - and your work was instrumental in helping me gather material. It still blows my mind that we are even talking about an issue like this! Who would have thought that people could become so deceived and believe that there is more than just male and female!🤦🏻♀️🤷♀️
Thanks for your personal story and comment here, Wendy!
I think I became "obsessed" with gender because the things gender ideology was pushing were more often than not directly contradictionary and once I had spotted that pattern of constant contradiction I understood that logically at least half of it all must have been lies. It made me go "hang on, what's the truth then?" and because they don't actually have any solid answers to anything it ends up being a big unsolvable mystery that I desperately wanted to solve.
This feels like a common story for many people! Thanks for your comment
Ladies, many thanks for your industrious work in shining a light on the Gender issue, your work is highly appreciated and the works your reference and links provided are most useful in enhancing our understanding. Again, many thanks for covering these issues with evidence and grace.
Thank you so much for your kind words and support
That energy you are talking about, where people engaged with opposition to an ideology, is the polarizing power of faith. "Gender" is a belief, "gender critical" has become the default term for criticizing it, and the stakes are so high that this belief-battle reaches absurd rhetorical heights, because that is the usual way of emergent faith movements. They spark opposition. They inspire resistance. I started out calling myself a "gender heretic" because that is what we are really doing, here. "I come not to bring peace, but a sword"
And the detransitioners are the apostates... which is why their experiences are diminished and demeaned. They are excommunicated. Shunned.
Anything that can shake the belief of the faithful *must* be derided. No debate. Yes, bc we can't have the corrupting influence of sin.
I prefer gender skeptic to gender critical, because we are being far from critical about gender. We are skeptical about it, it's helpfulness, its validity and it's intentions for society at large.
“Gender heretic” is ironic, considering that the gender ideology is itself the heresy - the idea that one can choose one’s own reality. I prefer gender exterminationist, because that is what must be done.
I have long seen belief in "gender" as a literal (non-theistic) 'religion'.
-Belief that "trans-women ARE women" CAN ONLY be taken "on faith"; The claim has the same absence of empirical evidence, as ANY religious claim.
-"trans-women ARE women" is literally a supernatural/magical claim; 100% of empirical evidence says these are just men like any other men, EXCEPT they take estrogen, and invite themselves into women's spaces
-In the ideology, the sentence "I Identify as X" is literally "a magical spell,"- A phrase that alters reality, via some spooky, unspecified mechanism, once you speak it
-like ALL religions, belief makes you morally superior, while REJECTING these evidence-free supernatural claims makes you IMMoral, and a "a bad person,".
This discussion touches on so many important notions that could each warrant an entire episode. One thing I will add, not because Stella and Sasha don't understand it, but because time didn't allow more depth, and yet it always needs to be emphasized, is that (non affirming) ROGD parents' obsession with the gender debate is painful and as instinctive/involuntary as protecting their children from any danger. Sasha's comparison to the issue of homelessness that captures the passion of social warriors misses one important facet -- the world does not celebrate homelessness or gaslight family members into believing that their loved ones' homelessness should be celebrated and perpetuated.
Yes, the celebration has become 'addictive' for some. It looks so insincere or poorly understood from where I'm standing.
I was in the grocery store today. There's usually light non intrusive background music playing, today i started to hear LGBTQIA++ praises and support, then a run down of the flag and the symbolism of each color. Then... Judy Garland singing "Over the Rainbow" 🌈 .....
It occurred to me that other than Christmas music... this is the only time every store is playing themed music... and more strikingly propaganda for an ideology. ???? Is this a small portion of what ppl in authoritarian governments must endure day after day... ad nauseum? There's something different about this "movement".
Then it was Janis Joplin singing "Me and Bobby McGee" and the world resumed it's normally scheduled program. ❤
@@shannonsayshi Tesco is doing exactly this in the UK. It does remind me of the loudspeakers placed around villages in the Cultural Revolution.
And Stella fades till just the smile left but the wisdom remains
Beautiful captivating work Stella and Sasha.
ROGD mum here and I couldn't believe what I was hearing... I studied law, worked in politics in my 20's. I now work in data analytics and spend hours researching and cataloging gender articles, research etc, keeping side notes so that I am well prepared to go in to battle with the ever affirming health care. I was very liberal leaning until my son's sudden announcement 6 very long, sad and hard months ago. Thank you Stella and Sasha for these podcasts, they helped support me through the worst when I wondered if I was the crazy one.
You're not crazy! We're glad you resonated with our descriptions. Thanks for watching
Loved the intro. As an intellectually curious person, I initially came to help my kids, but stayed out of sheer fascination with the ever-morphing universe we call gender. Kind of like getting hooked on the Star Wars universe, even though you know it isn't real. But recently I realized that some of it simply isn't relevant to my family situation and only scratches the intellectual itch, at the expense of the attention and energy I could be giving to my family instead. Thanks for echoing this realization.
Armchair Activist...I gorge on the debate until I have to walk away and recover my sense of balance through meditation or hugging a tree.
Thanks for the helpful discussion.
A bit of self-reflection can be a very good thing. A useful tonic, thank you
I am (was?) a left-leaning sociologist with a focus on the human dimensions of wildlife conservation. Until a few years ago, I relied on the media to report facts, trusted “progressive” politicians to represent my interests, and believed that TQ+ was a natural and obvious extension of LGB.
During the Depp-Heard trial in 2022, it was apparent that many ‘journalists’ had become ideologically captured and were no longer capable of objectivity. Then, last month, I saw the results of a U.S. women’s cycling competition in North Carolina and was incredulous to see a male atop the podium!
As a woman, I’ve experienced discrimination in the workplace. As a conservationist, I’ve experienced gaslighting and science-denial from conservatives on the reality of global climate change. So, it was a very familiar feeling when I observed it coming from the other side. There has been a sense of loss for me, as I strongly identified as a liberal and now find myself politically homeless.
I don’t actually have a dog in the gender-identity fight. But I suppose I subscribed to Wider Lens because your coverage of this issue feels grounded and there aren’t many other spaces that are welcoming to women of my demographic (white, straight, 58 years old).
Your description is very similar to my awakening on this issue. I'm 38, to the left, bisexual. I got very interested while digging in to the Depp/Heard cases. This was around the first UK trial. I read some of what Rowling had said and it sparked my interest. Prior I had whole heartedly defended gender affirmative care. Now that I am more educated I think more nuance is needed. I read Hannah Barnes and Abigail Shriers books and just keep digging more and more.
This was an interesting (an blessedly non-polarizing) topic that I wouldn't mind hear more about in the future. I find myself drawn to the gender issues from multiple angles and although it has played havoc with my anxiety, because I'm mom to a gender fluid child, it has also done wonders to help me work through my own gender identity issues (infertility, hysterectomy and hormonal deficiencies) that I had not properly dealt with and which make me uniquely empathetic to those with dysphoria.
Thanks Bridgette!
Gender fluid or a personality that's not stereotypical?
@@mr.mclibtard5015 That's the label they like and I do not begrudge them it.
@@bridgetteparker7719 sounds like mental illness
My father was taught by the Jesuits in Ireland and he was a brilliant intellectual. I am so glad I found this today. It touched on so much I can relate to. I am a lone wolf artist and since moving to the coast I have very little in common with anyone. I always felt different. In the 80's and 90's I spent a lot of time reading about feminism and sexuality. It didn't take up my head space but it shaped how I saw myself and men and sex and it wasn't great. Boy am I glad to be 60. I grew a lot. The self censoring I felt in 2020 because I had questions was soul sucking and when I learned more about this trans ideology and then women's spaces and then the children I felt a real curiosity and then anger. My kids were raised around LGBT friends. I was very respectful. This is a whole new world and the forcing of compliance, cancelling, name calling, policies that hurt people, etc are really what make me enraged. You are so right, the more information I have found the smaller my world has become. People won't believe it if it isn't on cable news they watch. I hate confrontation and my brain doesn't retain information well enough for me to have a debate. I am really trying now to relax about it and even laugh at it if possible as it was taking up way too much head space and getting in the way of my productivity. I did discover some articles on the billionaire Pritzker family in the US and their hand in all this ideology. One in particular by Jennifer Bilek that is very enlightening..and upsetting. So many institutions are captured. I am so glad my kids are grown. Keep up the good work.
Cheers to your father's education. I received my Masters from Spring Hill, a historic Jesuit institution. I wouldn't change a thing about my time there. It was deep thinking.
You are so fortunate! Academia has gone to the dogs in many places. @@karatyson8234
Thoughtful discussion that really made me think about what fires me up.
Fascinated that Catholics are taking this issue seriously as I am Jewish, and the only people generally speaking out about this in the Jewish world tend to be either (1) queer theory true believers who look in Judaism for validation or (2) traditionalists who want to reinforce gender norms.
I guess what keeps me fired up is that I don't know anyone else speaking out publicly who is taking a truly feminist approach here that is also true to the Jewish legal tradition (halachah). This whole debate hits home so much because it brings to the fore the same issues I struggled with as a young religious Jewish feminist in the 1980s and 90s. What does it mean to be a Jewish woman? Did the fact that I found religious gender norms oppressive mean that I had a male soul? It's all so familiar.
The depressing situation is that it seems that all the usual feminist / forward thinking institutions within modern orthodoxy have been captured by gender ideology, so there is not a proper discussion of the real issues. Women will express concerns to me in private, but rarely publicly, and certainly not female Jewish leaders in feminist circles. So I feel a duty to study this and to speak and to teach.
If anyone else is reading this and this resonates with them, please get in touch. My twitter handle is also @shirabatya
You may find allies in the Muslim community, if you’re interested. Very similar issues. @offtotheball
Fear keeps ppl captivated maybe.
In my case, I was completely blind sided. And I want to be better informed and NOT blindsided agains by a danger i didn't anticipate.
When my daughter started to ID as trans, I had never given the topic any thought whatsoever. Why would I? An extremely rare disorder that has historically affected *mostly* boys wasn't on my radar. And my daughter never had any issues with gender one way or another. Neither extremely stereotypical nor atypical. It was completely a non issue. Until it wasn't.
I do get too "in" and have to pull back to focus on life.
As ppl are quick to tell me I *should* have been monitoring her on-line usage more closely. Maybe so. And MAYBE if adults in schools, medicine, politics, etc weren't supportive of the activist agenda it wouldn't have become a problem any of us would've had to deal with at 14yo. and on-going.
When did adults start participating in youth movements? How many participated in being emo? Or goth? That's the danger. Not exploring gender & what that means or it's impact on individuation and self concept.
Becoming more informed hasn't changed my mind about ppl being "trans" the very little thinking I did was "someone has to be crazy to want to chop off body parts"
I still think the same... without feeling like "crazy" is the appropriate way to think of those afflicted with dysphoria around their sex. I'm better informed and have more compassion. That's good at least. But at what cost???!
However.... now I also understand it's not just this very small group, and there are very dark elements.
It's fascinating in a train wreck sort of way.
Honestly at this point I suspect my daughter has mostly moved on (I hope I'm right about that) and I'm the one obsessed 😂
Certainly the TRAs are very keen on pointing out the 'Jewish tradition' of 8 genders. I'm an atheist, I don't hold ideas as more meaningful simply because they've been around for longer and become embedded in a powerful religion.
@@shannonsayshiI only became GC a year ago - I have been horrified by the stranglehold that this ideology has on some .
I'm glad your daughter is coming out of it. I know a teen girl who has had a gender crisis - what used to be known as being a teenager 😮 and now she see the large number of girls at her school who are NB rather ridiculous 😏
I wonder if you have notice the underlying patterns to third wave feminism are very similar to trans ideology?
Pronouns (Ms), oppression, primacy of one component of one's identity, need to separate sex's societal role from its physical functions (gender).
Ever listened to Mary Harrington?
I'm an 83-year-old woman who became obsessed with this subject when a friend told me about a situation in her family. I really went down the rabbit hole. Then an issue came up on the board of an atheist organization that I'm on. I caught a problem that no one else was aware of and I was so glad I had learned so much. Thank you for the extremely important information that you are providing.
I cannot overstate the importance of this podcast, this episode in particular. I am a psychotherapist, academic, lone wolf who has gone down the rabbit hole, like Stella, exhausted my husband, and have withdrawn from friends who don’t get it, aren’t interested-most of them staunch progressives like myself six months ago before becoming peaked after reading an article about a young girl at a YMCA in California essentially run through the coals by the community for complaining about an intact male in the change room. My very kind liberal friends sincerely believe there is no harm to be done by allowing everyone to live as their “authentic” selves. These friends and political cohorts will not engage in conversations about infringement on women’s sex-based rights, and I cannot pretend ambivalence or cool distance. This brings me to the other type of person/personality the person who insists on kindness no matter what. No state of being, no set of circumstances, so amount of stress could ever justify a lack of kindness arbitrarily defined by the individual. Personally, I think it’s unkind to withhold informed consent and operate in children leaving their bodies permanently altered before their brains are fully developed. I think it’s unkind to reduce people to two syllables i.e. transphobe, bigot for disagreeing despite years and years of allyship. I could go on forever but just know I listen to every episode and find you both, and your guests to be amazing professionals whom I respect and admire. Thank you for your work and for this episode. I needed it-each and every word. ❤
Kim thanks so much for you’re heartfelt and honest comment. Yes the “kindness” crew is indeed another type of person. Empathy, when too extreme, can become self destructive.
I can't help but refer to the Big 5 personality traits. 95% of the population is more Agreeable than I am, and 90% are less Open.
I think these two traits are strong indicators of who will be Gender Skeptical and who will be an ROGB parent!
I am pretty convinced there is something to be learned here.
I am in hook, line and sinker.... the whole thing has so many impacts for society. I take breaks often from it and go out in nature. The main question I am grapping with why in western society do we go to war on our bodies? And why do we put things in place to encourage and enable this. On the surface the proposed solutions look well meaning but looking deeper they are clearly causing harm from the advocacy groups, schools, medical profession and so on. i just I cant get my head around it.
Thank you Stella and Sasha. This has come at really good time for me (a time of complete obsession). Today I am going to visit an old friend 😊
Have fun!
My interest in gender issues stems from my alarm over the muzzling of anything but 100% adherence to "the party line." It's an urgent moral crisis.
RUclips won't stop crashing in the background - good thing *this podcast is also on Spotify*, I'm switching over there so I can keep listening.
Other good reasons to listen on spotify include: I'll be able to give you a five star review. Your current star rating suggests hate-listeners have had an undue influence there.
I absolutely relate to the lone wolf thing! Always been a loner since childhood, thinking and observing, when in a group I’m always hovering above and in a team I become the leader, always thinking, always got one eye on the horizon!
Necessary, helpful, valid conversation.
No mention of the trans widows! I got pulled into the gender wars after my seemingly gender-content ex decided he was a woman, and I watched his personality warp and mental health languish all in the name of a “true gender identity”. I saw a man lose himself in the grips of mental illness. Instead of help, he was given hormones.
There are many conversations out there about trans widows. I feel like there should be an episode somewhere that covers the full experience or it because these women's stories are so interesting and tend to be every different from the trans narrative. I would like to see a whole episode by someone on trans widow's
@@RenegadeContextBenjamin Boyce's yer man.
Check out episode 83 where we spoke to Trans Widow Shannon Thrace
I would describe myself as a person with a lot of empathy. It breaks my heart that people don't feel at home in their own bodies. I have an adult child embarking on a transition journey. At 30, I respect my child's thoughts and feelings regarding decisions to modify. It just seems radical as did tatooing and extreme body and facial piercings to me when first exposed.
I struggle with issues that are very complex as I am a very critical thinker. I have to consider a matter before giving an opinion. My opinions are based on what I know so far and I respect different opinions from my own. I despise mocking and name calling so I have never been able to be part of a group who participate in hostility toward those who hold different opinions.
Perhaps there have always been this proportion of people who suffer from gender dysphoria. It seems like there has been an explosion, though. If the former is true, then it may just be that medical advances have made desired outcomes attainable. If the latter is true, we need to apply caution before using puberty blockers or hrt or surgeries with people under the age of 21 or so.
I have known trans people for over 30 years. This is very different. To be extremely simplistic it is the most acceptable way to show ones distress. ED forums are shut down, self harm is not encouraged, etc etc. So much easier to put it ALL in a trans bag😕
3:00 Here's a guess about one type of person that might find themselves preoccupied by the gender mishegas - gay men who find gender-bending unattractive.
I am interested in this subject because of its wider implications for how humans manage to select evidence, often completely counter to "the truth" and use this evidence as a unshakable foundation on which to construct an identity. what V.S. Ramachandran calls "confabulation".
I grew up with a profoundly narcissistic, controlling father that could not be contradicted, even in the smallest way. He would have 2 different opinions on 2 different days, depending on the opinion that he felt in the moment would cast him in the most favourable light. I grew up seeing him be one person inside the house and another outside. This was hugely destabilizing but also a healthy education in true empathy, as I attempted to work out exactly how he managed to perform the mental gymnastics needed to make the world into the place his ego needed it to be. Bigging himself up, angrily rejecting evidence that would make him wrong (therefore worthless).
As a child I was primed to see this quality everywhere, I was very suspicious of performative people that I said "wore masks". I would notice even how adults would talk to me one way, then turn, change, and talk to another adult in a different way. I also began to see how teachers could be very knowledgeable in their subject area but say ridiculous things that made absolutely no sense when they were outside of that area, again, I began to see it in so, so many people. As an adult I eventually realized this might be due to how people, everyone has a map of how they think the world is in their head, which can differ wildly from the reality of the actual world. They select confirmatory evidence to support this map, and reject any evidence that is counter to it. Over time the map becomes so solid, and representative of the person's idea of what the world is, it becomes very, very hard to even attempt to start changing it.
I am like Sasha in that I have always rejected groups and, as a foundational aspect of who I am because of my father, I question most things I am confidently told. I know the truth is always more complicated than those that confidently assert anything make out, "Why do they believe this?" "Why are they telling me this with such confidence?" "Can I see any case in which this assertion isn't true?"
I don't think we should see the current gender cult as unprecedented, the world is filled with people looking for certainty, until very recently people swallowed all sorts of unbelievable "truths" about the world, many on the right in The US still do.
We all have some beliefs, or stories, about the world that are wrong, I think we just have, always in the backs of our minds, the strong possibility that our stories are not correct, we've done the work to be able to see belief for what it is, contingent, a rag bag of influences that we have assessed to the best of our abilities, but is definitely not 100% accurate.
I don't hear many people speaking about the bystanders who don't want to get involved in the gender issue, or any issue at all, because of fear. There are many people who fear being cancelled or fired from their jobs for stating an opinion, so they remain silent. I think one of the most interesting aspects of this issue is that fact that it involves children. Most people believe it is okay for an adult to cut off body parts and become medicalized for the rest of their lives, but this issue involves life-long harm to children and young adults. When ideological or politicallly minded individuals come after people's children and try to purposely destroy the meaning of words like family, woman, man, etc., people become angry and frustrated. Most people just don't want this ideology crammed down their throat and being forced to change their way of life or language. This issues creates fear in many people because it just seems so crazy and beyond reason.The social justice warriors of this issue seem tyrannical. Some of these "bystanders" may then become involved because they do not want their children, or childen in general, being exposed to this ideology or being confused about their identity or the identity of others. When people come after children, it becomes dangerous.
This is a great point. And we think you're absolutely right: fear stops a lot of bystanders from speaking up or sharing their opinions.
6:15 Thank you for saying this. I didn't glom onto gender ideology -- gender ideology came for me, unasked and uninvited. My straight married adult brother "transed" over twenty years ago as part of a spiral into mental illness and social dysfunction. I had to seek answers myself, obtain expert clinical opinions, dig into what (pretty awful) research there was, and learn how to tend to my own psyche. I've done so with the help of a psychiatric MD, an associated LCSW, and a licensed trauma therapist. I'm careful not to obsess, but I'm still engaged, whether I like it or not. At least I've stuck it out long enough to see Stephen B. Levine and E. Abbruzzese make some headway and the Dutch Protocol seriously challenged. I hold out hope for a post-Tavistock world.
I'm so interested hearing what Stella said about Irish trad musicians. I played bagpipes for years, managed to go compete in the world championships in Scotland more than once… I kept wanting to hear bodhrans and uilleann pipes everytime some content came out of Killarney!
I appreciate this talk because recently spend some time with someone I know socially who identifies is trans and I started thinking wow... I'm fighting for a lot of people who aren't this important to me. It is healthy to take a step back once in awhile and figure out what your priorities actually are... But it sounds like Stella was saying at one point that the fact that people are spending a lot of time on their Twitter accounts and not getting paid for it means that this is necessarily an unhealthy activity. I disagree with that. I'm an addictions counselor and while certainly it isn't healthy to become obsessed with something to the exclusion of all else, it can be good for some people to finally be recognized in a way that they haven't before. Twitter is getting the message out there to a lot of people and I think if all you do is have a Twitter account where you're speaking out, whether you're being paid for it or not, it's still a good thing.
21:14 God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, *and the wisdom to know the difference.*
Thank you!
When you are describing the RODG parent, remember you are describing characteristics of soldiers who share some of the same trauma symptoms because they were wounded in the same war
have u guys seen John Andersons recent interview w triggernometry? it fits in w this great episode!
Well done!
I dont think most ppl always realise how old elements of the "gender debate" are...
the Transexual Empire was published in the late 70's... it wasnt published into a vacuum~
RF vs TW have had semi regular skirmishes, the entire time!
I have recently started to notice... there is a strong group of anti- TRA trans adults who speak out against GI... but a fair number of them, never had anything to do w "trans community"- even ppl who started a decade or more ago...
so u have a strong group of trans ppl pushing back, which is awesome!
but theyre also trying to educate ppl on a community & history that they were never really a part of...
The gender identity supporters or allies, those that don’t engage in activism or twitter wars, but are simply compassionate and see trans issue as the new gay liberation or even on a par with anti racism. There many social events and festivals celebrating gender variance.These young people enjoy the social events which bring a sense of solidarity and fun. It is very difficult to engage them in discussing the medicalisation of children for example; they seem to have blinkers and refuse to look around or question what is happening, to do so would risk exclusion. I know so many young people like this.
The Marxist philosopher Herbert Marcuse noted this in an essay "One dimensional man" in 1965.
It kicked off the whole 1960s counter culture.
Marcuse could see the revolution wasn't going to come from the proletariat since they were profiting from Capitalism (the post war economic boom).
Marcuse identified the "migrant" ghettos and the spoiled privileged children of the new rich were going to be fertile ground for sowing discontent.
Everyone seems to have forgotten the terrorism of the early to mid 1970s, the Bader Meinhof gang, the Black Panthers, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia (FARC), the Red Army Faction.
One of the three leaders of BLM was a member of the group responsible for the first bombing of the World Trade Centre in 1992 (she has changed her name several times).
Wokism has given these "liberation" movements new legs by adopting the unsettling tennets of Postmodernism.
Postmodernism concurs with Marxism's treatise that society is kept hobbled by "false consciousness" media manipulation and power hierarchies.
It's the same old revolutionary movement using discontent with life to dismantle liberal democracy with its own sense of responsibility for overcoming injustice.
Surely, given the magnitude of the social and personal impact of gender ideology, the real question is "why are so few people devoting their time to it?"
I love reading viewer descriptions of their own entry into this subject, so I'm compelled to add my own account.
I am not a therapist, a lawyer, an "academic", an MD, etc. I studied computer science in college and didn't even finish my 3rd year. But I have spent much of my life analyzing, reading about, and critiquing society at large and a lot of that has been focused on government, the medical establishment, mental illness, and particularly male/female relationships, feminism, men's movements, and the like. So I've developed a decent layman's knowledge of these subjects.
Then, about 6 years ago, one of my oldest and dearest friends - who always seemed to struggle with some nebulous personal issues and self-doubt - surprised us with an announcement that he was actually a woman trapped in a man's body and that this had always been at the core of his general disenchantment, alcoholism, and inability to keep commitments, finish projects, stay in one place for more than 6 months, and other related behaviors and moods. We all quietly accepted this (with some obvious doubt and concern) as he fast tracked himself through a complete transitioning: hormones, bottom surgery, joining a trans club, and even classes on how to "act" like a woman. And the medical and psychiatric establishment was more than happy to oblige seemingly without any evaluation, intake, counseling, relevant medical exams, etc.
As he made his way through this transition gauntlet it became apparent that this was causing him some new serious problems while not addressing older ones: medical issues, psychiatric issues, suicidal ideation, paranoid delusions about how the world was out to get him for being "different", and upset that his new man-made vagina was not the primary topic at dinner conversations.
Then about a year ago we got into a rather uncomfortable conversation about all this and he demanded that I acknowledge him has being the exact same thing as a biological female, which of course I could not do..... because.... well..... XY chromosomes and other inescapable biological realities. When I politely refused to comply he terminated our friendship telling me to never speak to him again. And that's when I got sucked down the transgender rabbit hole - because clearly something VERY effed up was going on here that was very suddenly and strangely spreading everywhere like an unstoppable virus. And since then I've had 2 other close male friends announce their womanhood and are in some stage of "transitioning" and also avoiding contact with me.
How many people have been "born into the wrong body"? Half of us? Can "God" not get things right with more precision than a coin toss? What does "born into the wrong body" even mean? I do believe in a soul, but is the soul sexed? How so? Where's the science on this? Aren't we supposed to follow the science when it comes to getting very serious surgery and medicalizing yourself for life? No answers are forth coming; just anger, tears, victimhood, and calling everyone a genocidal bigot just for asking these obvious questions that need to be asked.
We are in the middle (or perhaps still just at the beginning) of a mass psychosis. What is the primary driver of this? Medical profiteering? Social media and isolation? Nefarious government control programs? Somehow Blackrock and Wall Street keeps coming up on the radar - a relationship I'm struggling to wrap my mind around. Basically I'm still trying to understand how so many people - even grown ass adults - are so susceptible to getting their genitals mutilated as a way to address a huge swath of common psychological ills that may having nothing to do with sex and gender. Is this part of a psychological profile I've just never been aware of before - all of these decades of my life? I know that a certain percentage of the population has always been sheep-like, but how do you walk so many otherwise relatively normal people off a cliff like this - and so quickly? Make it make sense!!
Really interesting discussion. I am another type of listener here, not an important one maybe, but I am listening in because I am so puzzled that people have an inner sense of gender at all. So I am wondering what it is that people are feeling, and puzzlingly, why the stereotypes are so important ,when you see the huge arguments and outcomes, good for some and also so very bad for others. For me, the stereotypes pushed onto women are hideous.. .Is it similar to colour-blindness that I just can’t feel it, or maybe, is it that my life has been so badly affected by hostile entitled men that I dissociated it away? (I do dissociate, this is getting better but I still have no inner sense of gender). Kathleen Stock has in her book that 30% of women feel similarly, and that is a huge portion of women, but she did not cite a source as far as I saw. You did have one speaker about gifted kids being androgynous and the famous Hungarian-American psychologist (unpronounceable) says creative people are androgynous. Anyway, I find the whole thing fascinating, like I am an anthropologist in an alien world. And I am very admiring of the breadth and depth on this channel and of you both.
Thank you! There are many "types" of people we didn't get to. We'll keep this top of mind next time we revisit
I also have no "inner sense of gender" or gender identity feelings. This is universal among the women i know personally (and many on Twitter). I have no idea what it is to "feel like a woman" I just feel like me. I don't think about "gender" at all. Except for this current sociological phenomenon.
I talked to a trans woman who tried to explain her feelings that some things, even superficial clothes etc, feeling "right" to her.... like they resonate with her in some way that I have absolutely zero experience of. She at first thought I was being deliberately obtuse, but through our conversation I was able to explain my sincerity.
I have aesthetic preferences, none of them have to do with "is this reflective of my gender identity?" It's color, cut, fit, how does the fabric feel, is it functional for the intended activity/purpose, etc. Not once have I chosen something because it gives me gender "euphoria" or *not* chosen something due to it being "dysphoric"
I don't think I'm exceptional. 🤷♀️
Which is why I come back to "trans" being either a biological malfunction or a type of spiritual belief (or both).
Either way... I'm willing to believe that the feelings trans ppl have are sincere... but not immutable... I've seen too many formerly genuine believers desist/detransition.
I disassociate too. I think it's normal 😊
There's the category of "trans ppl" who describe themselves as being sufferers from GD & transition to alleviate that.
And... the ones who come to identify as trans through other *ahem* biological/psychological pathways of their sexuality.
None of these resonate with me.
@@shannonsayshi I was having this discussion the other day that I don't think the clearly flawed "a woman is some who identifies as/feels they are a woman" includes most people on the planet.
I don't have an internal sense of my gender as a man. I think my understanding that I am one comes more from my physical biology and interaction with individuals and the society at large, I think, because it's more of an unchangeable general reality than a gender identity and so it doesn't really cross my mind except when ppl treat me differently because I'm a man. Even then it's mainly down to my sex characteristics (being asked to lift heavy things or women who don't know me being wary if we are both walking down the same street at night).
As much as it would be lovely if trans men simply were men and were very similar to me when I hear them speak there are usually notable differences in how they think and express their ideas, especially about masculinity. When they do bring up manhood it feels like a caricature of either unfeeling, ew girls have emotions not men, aggression or just saying dude or bruh a lot like all men are Bill and Ted.
When I listen to trans women they sound very similar to camp men I know, maybe extreme exaggerated versions but often I think, have you ever met a woman before? Is that what you think a woman really is?
(obviously I don't mean every single trans person)
@@shannonsayshi Try to imagine how you would feel if you started to go through male bodily and emotional changes. eg you started to go bald, put on muscle mass, became hairier, grew a beard, masculinised voice etc I'm sure you would get dysphoria and become aware of your true gender ie woman.
Home with the flu, so these women's voices sooth my sick self today
Get well soon
Hope you feel better soon
The algorithms trap you as well . Especially on RUclips I rarely see suggested videos on other subjects
Ive been fascinated by transgender people for decades, its a very interesting field. Particularly i was really drawn into the lives of classical early-onset trans women. Ive been through a lot of things that made my feminity feel very inaccessible and scary to me as a cis woman. Seeing someone for whom it was even more challenging to reach was inspirational. I have a lot to thank trans women for actually, they have really helped me feel free to express myself in a way that feels very natural to me. I also have a background in studying sociology particularly in gender and sexuality, which has led to me researching the field more indepth out of curiosity. Where we are now is very suprising and I never expected young people would be so gender obsessed now. Im a Gen Xer and when i was young i thought gender would become more and more irrelevant. But im not very disturbed by it. That might be because ive spent a lot of time in the body modification world. I suspect a lot of people who are extremely disturbed by transgenderism might also be disturbed by body mod people 🤔
For what it's worth, I didn't think this was controversial at all, Sasha.
I think there are 3 categories of de-transitioners.
1. The Reluctant Advocate
2. The Eager Advocate
3. The Shy Lurker
1. The Reluctant Advocate is a de-transitioner who did not expect or want to become public, but did so accidently, and now feels obligated to speak out, but ultimately doesn't want to. They may be excellent at writing or speaking, but really are more introverted and prefer privacy.
2. The Eager Advocate is a de-transitioner who is deeply impassioned and enthusiastic about speaking out. They may overextend themself because of their sense of justice and struggle to balance life and activism. (I feel I fit this category.)
3. The Shy Lurker is a de-transitioner who remains fully anonymous and prefers to follow the movement from afar. They don't do public advocacy, but may write posts here or there. They are introverted and are more focused on healing privately.
Stella the online Cheshire cat, her smile remained til the end! 😅
Has anyone else notice that tatoos have become ubiquitous?
I have never understood why people can't see ten years into the future.
Can't they put things into a braoder perspective?
I think some of us have a strong compulsion to "identify" with a group, being a "ling wolf" fills them with dread.
It's possible to read into the tatoos and piercings. Sonething to do with a loss of a sense of sacredness and integrity of the Self. This is where the theological analysis of the body is very interesting.
Having studied gender psychology thirty years ago, when the Butlerites were on the march, I was dragged back into the debate by the shameful treatment of a transgender person's partner by so-called transgender allies.
It seems to me that we are in a battle for reality, fighting the virtual reality of Hegelian idealism manifested online, and gender is the most obvious form of this battle in the mostly white communities of the UK and Ireland. In the US and Canada they have more critical race theory and indigenous rights issues to contend with, and in other countries more inter-religious conflict.
Watch the Muslims.
@@AndyJarman Muslim parents have been one of the few groups successfully pushing back against sadomasochistic 'queer theory' in UK schools. According to Theory, all minority views are valid, which is impossible to reconcile.
The problem with it, is how do you make twitter account identities healthy? In another world, how would they be able to channel their talents into something that's more worthwhile (assuming that twitter threads aren't worthwhile)
Not everyone can be a musician. There's something sad about that, because it's unclear what could replace those brilliant analyses even if you took their twitter away.
If the gender stuff didn't happen, maybe their academic efforts could be channelled into other things? But because of the ghettoizing effects of being known as someone who's in this topic, even those avenues, or applying their skills to other subjects, or making friends in other fields, get closed off to them.
Or would they just continue life without a cause?
Great point, thank you
I think we could all report our Big 5 personality rankings and discover we are all high in trait Openess but very low in trait Agreeableness. This would suggest we'd be low in Conscientiousness?!
I bet most people watching this are not interested in team sports, or declaring affiliation to a cause or group. But I bet we are interested in discussing ideas and views.
I think ROGD parents would be high in trait Agreeable, trait Conscienscous and trait Openess - they've have to be if you think about it.
Interesting! The big 5 is very useful.
It's very interesting to watch the dynamics of how "unresolved gender-work" play out.
Parents getting their kids to act out their unlived gender-drama;
Unrelated people white knighting for boys, BLUE-KNIGHTING, I should say;
People jumping in for trans kids, "WHO HAS HURT YOU?!?!?"
etc.
Gender Skeptical is much closer to my outlook than Gender Critical.
I would love to hear you talk about the effect of fundamentalist religion, especially purity culture, on gender dysphoria. I was raised in a fundamentalist religion and eventually left and am now an atheist. I know that fundamentalism always screws up the minds of kids with respect to sex. I never had any gender problems but my sex life was totally messed up, even for many years (decades) after I became an atheist. Have either of you encountered a child whose mind was screwed up by religion?
The only reason I sought to educate myself about gender is because I am a climate educator. It is the ultimate wedge issue for progressives, which weakens the one group advocating for the rapid and widespread systemic action necessary to preserve civilization and the natural world. All these tremendously smart powerful people are in this gender issue so deeply. Yet gender, civil rights, women's rights, global health, ALL art, ALL music, ALL dance, everything we care about -- are the place settings on the table. Climate is the tablecloth, which is about to upend all of it. So part of me is simply mystified about why there is so much energy poured into the topic of gender -- lets say for a goal to make kids safe, to make schools safe -- when nobody is looking at the giant boulder building momentum rolling down the mountain to flatten that school.
Best comment here. Thank you.
Fascinating opener when you're laughing about being estranged from your families and others who are not sucked in by the obsession. Validating and normalising the condition, in an opener!
It's not really "gender" that's the obsession though, is it? I think that's a bit misleading, it's trans people and trans women in particular. And I think it's a combination of freak-show, outrage addiction and a need for meaning and social connection that you didn't have in your life before. Yes, trans people live/have complicated lives and you're fascinated by it, I can understand that, it's certainly a very difficult and complicated thing to live with. For you, it's a fascinating curiosity. For me it's a daily reality, and it's something I've known and lived with my entire life.
I don't, and never have had the power to change my social situation. I like that you mentioned the "serenity prayer", because that's how I accept my fate.
There is a need by anti-trans activists for power, domination, and control which feeds into reinforcement, schemas, filtering, rationalisation, and that's how it spirals. I realise I'm using very psychological terms, but I'm sure you understand the concepts. It's little surprise that fascists have joined the crusade - wanting power, control and dominance over people they see as "not like them". Psychotherapists are an interesting addition, being based on pseudoscience. The nature of it (not being a science and subjected to scientific rigor) in a way enables and facilitates the outrage addiction. Other people around you (with equal social standing), unrelated to your target suffer, and I'm glad that you're showing some awareness of it, although you're reluctant to change it. I would have liked to hear something about narcissists and how anti-trans culture supports and facilitates them which seemed missing from the discusssion.
I'm currently working on exposure therapy, to prepare myself for stripping in front of cis men (as MP's regard me as male despite not having male primary and secondary characteristics), which is in effect unpaid sex work / slavery, and I'm trying to work out if that's something I can do as a skilled worker, or if I should get a low paid job and loose my home. Or, if I'm being forced into sexual slavery, wether I should just do that full time on my own terms and get paid for it. This isn't happening right now, but it's something I'm having to consider.
It's not unusual, in some cultures trans women can only be sex workers, as that's the trajectory we're heading towards in the UK. Physical and emotional safety are, for me, luxuries that are not afforded to people of my social class, and the more I manage some kind of control over it, the better.
I can understand some trans people feeling like the anti-trans movement is moving from exacting social control to a form of genocide, and I can understand how it might feel that way (given that as a class we have to plan and prepare for all eventualities), but I don't accept that at the moment in the UK, until there is an "urgent" social need to "eradicate" people regarded as an "existential threat" to society.
"You can end up hardening yourself to compassion", a valuable reflection.
Whatever happens, I'll continue to survive and adapt. My family and my partner are central to my life.
Thanks for your comment. Your situation sounds very complicated and difficult. We wish you the best of luck and hope you'll be safe, happy, and loved.
@@widerlenspod Thank-you, and likewise.
51:03 maybe
I know I have it just right 😂
i look at it with "a wider lens", if you will. this is just one part of a much larger unfurling in society. i see how all the insanity is linked and frankly i'm not at all optimistic for the future. it's hard to step away from something when it is everywhere. this particular issue just encapsulates it all and in the most basic and corporeal way. in one word: eugenics.
I just watched Hannah Barnes at the LSE and I think I heard there was a demonstration against her. Further, It seemed to be implied through a question that she had no right to write her book because she is not Trans (although I do not think she has ever said what she is). Leaving aside the important issues about children, my main issue is how a fake left non-Trans minority have appropriated the issue and deployed the most aggressive activism as a badge of courage. Who is trying to tell me and everyone else what we can talk or write about? I did not ask to get drawn into all this but the ramifications go very far beyond the issue of sex/gender.
All those people saying “it could have been me,” identifying with the transitioned kids. I would guess, like it was for me, it’s a response to trauma from childhood that they may not be in touch with. I suspect it’s a big, if subconscious category. Thinking about how you might have missed it, but no answers.
I loved this episode, thank you so much.
This was an awesome episode. A wake up call. I'm sorry to say that as a result I've unsubscribed to your wonderful podcast, not because it's not wonderful, obviously, but because, yeah, I realise I need to go on a zero to nil gender ideology diet. No more podcasts. Not on twitter, not on FB, so that's easy...hmmm, need to unsubscribe to a few substacks... I actually don't know quite WHY this issue is so....embroiling. I mean, I do know, but on another level I don't. So, yeah, came here to say thank you, I'm withdrawing, going to focus on other things. Yay. So it's goodbye from me. Wishing you all well. ❤
Sasha, would it be possible to link the Catholic gender thing you were talking about? Your show is always very thought provoking and very respectful. I am an ordinary mother who notices the rapid rise of dysphoria in teens or questioning in all my circles (school, family, neighbourhhood). It seems rather high here in Canada. It's rather difficult to talk openly and have discussions here about it. Maybe there's a "silenced archetype".
Sasha here! There wasn’t one specific resource on my mind when I said that, though many catholic scholars and theologians have crossed my path in the last 8 years and their analysis has been thoughtful and intelligent.
This might be a place to start with links to various religious and secular perspectives. www.centerforfaith.com/blog/less-than-affirming-perspectives-beyond-the-gender-affirmative-only-model-of-care-for-trans-and
@@widerlenspod thanks Sasha. I will look into it on my own. I appreciate your podcast!
@@widerlenspod thank you
I like listening to Abigail Favale. She gives many interviews.
The characterization of the ROGD parent you have seen, are interesting to hear, and completely different from the ROGD parents I have seen. Some ROGD parents who are in favor of their childs transition, and those who are not. There seems to be a great diversity of personalities amongst both groups.
I disagree that it is an "identity"
People who have experienced trauma in their children, will naturally want to understand and do as much as they can to help their child. The same happens for parents whose child has addiction or eating disorders or cancer.
Thank you for your comment. There are SO many different ways that families react and indeed, we didn't really do justice to any single reaction. And there were many more types of parenting styles/types we didn't get to cover
@@widerlenspod thank you for your response. The framing of it as an "identity" is what is most objectionable. Much appreciate your conversations regarding this very important and critical cultural issue.
I can pinpoint exactly when I became really REALLY interested in transgender. (I left Academia before this showed up in the classroom. )
I was working Greekfest last year (the bookstore). And this young man showed up wearing a dress. But he had a full beard and carried a purse. I found this odd because there was no effort to "pass" as another gender. Plus he had a deep voice. Ok... Literally almost 50% of teens that I came in contact with that weekend were some version of half man; half woman.
Now this % could be an anomaly since these were only kids interested in reading Orthodox literature, icons, and incense, which is most definitely not the norm.
interesting!
Chloe Cole got me into this. As i listened to her story i saw more an more of myself in her, and ws horrified for her, and the thought that this could have been me had i been born in her era.
It's doubly difficult when you are alone with it all.
Thanks gals. Fund Chat. Stellla, "Fades to black" ....🐿
This is a message for Stella and Sasha: GET OUT OF MY BRAIN!!!! Seriously, almost every time you do a show, you seem to say what I'm thinking 😂.❤.
I feel like if I stay in a tribe that I'll be missing out on the flexibility to change my mind and formulate new thoughts. I'd like to think I'm agnostic about gender in a similar way to being agnostic about God or the supernatural. I can't always explain the dynamics between men and women but I won't automatically chalk it up to "gendered souls" or " gendered essences". I firmly believe that sex is *not* incidental to gender and we forget that at our peril!!!
Ha! Thank you Paul. You're always so engaged and supportive.
Gorgeous and brave women.
9:16 "adolescent therapist"
Not a teenaged therapist, obviously.
This may be a bit tangential, but:
I was wondering what's gender doing to the gaeltacht, so I searched "gaeilge pronouns" and filtered for videos uploaded within this year… I'm not even two minutes into a video and I already know that the video will be teaching me how to respect people with non-binary identities, "as gaeilge."
This may be a bit transgenital….oh, wait, tangential 🤣
Comment for thé algorithm
Thé, Earl Grey, chaud !
Left wing Mothers / parents of kids in the vulnerable age groups or who are non typical in some way or kids have neuro diversity frightened of having their kid get sucked into this so want to be forewarned and forearmed
5:40: what is psychology, and does it help?!
👑
🤍
love,
david