EPISODE 109: What if We Are All Wrong: A Mother's Regret with Rose
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- This episode is a powerful and important conversation exposing the increasingly devastating impact of the conflation between gender identity theory and the experience of living with gender dysphoria.
In this episode, Sasha & Stella speak with Rose who wishes to remain anonymous. Rose is the mother of two young sons and lives in the United States. In August of 2022, she published the piece “True Believer” on the Parents with Inconvenient Truths around Trans (PITT) Substack. She wrote “True Believer” to share her story and help other parents and concerned adults who are struggling to understand the dynamics underneath the current phenomenon of transgender children. Rose’s first-hand perspective is unique in that she and her partner were "affirming parents" - they thought their four-year-old son could be transgender and chose to socially transition him, only to realize they were wrong.
Rose’s story is incredibly important because, at its core, it’s a simple case of the best of intentions garnering devastating impact. This is a humanized account of the pain, distress, confusion, fear, and regret that so many families are facing in the wake of doing what “experts” told them was best for their child.
Links:
Rose’s original piece published on Parents with Inconvenient Truths around Trans (PITT) Substack:
“True Believer” - pitt.substack.com/p/true-beli...
Rose’s appearance episode of Triggernometry podcast -
• "I Transitioned My Chi...
Rose’s follow-up piece on PITT provides further reflections on the Triggernometry interview:
“A Return to Reality” - pitt.substack.com/p/a-return-...
Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Maté, MD
www.amazon.com/Hold-Your-Kids...
Eliza Mondagreen:
/ 1625925867053383700
Neufeld Institute - neufeldinstitute.org/resource...
Dr. Gordon Neufeld - “Becoming the Answer a Child Needs”
A Map of Detransition Island - genspect.org/infographics/#is...
“Dear Theodosia”, from Hamilton (the Musical by Lin-Manuel Miranda)
• Dear Theodosia
“The Way Forward Is with a Broken Heart” - Quote/Book by Alice Walker
If you liked this episode, more episodes you might find interesting:
“1 - Trans: Identity vs Dysphoria”
• EPISODE 1 - Trans: Ide...
“31 - Silencing Thought: A Conversation with Heather Brunskell-Evans”
• EPISODE 31 - Silencing...
“53 - You Affirmed Your Child's Gender... How to Roll Back”
• EPISODE 53 - You Affir...
“78 - Affirming Reality for Kids with Stephanie Davies-Arai”
• EPISODE 78 - Affirming...
Please visit www.widerlenspod.com to explore more content, access additional resources, or join our listener community.
To learn more about our sponsors, visit:
rethinkime.org/
genspect.org/
Chapters
00:00 Introduction
05:51 Interview with Rose starts
08:28 Rose explains the belief system
19:50 If this is what we believe, what do we need to do with it?
25:10 Joining the support group
37:00 “I wanted nothing more than to turn back the clock”
46:00 The importance of accepting and grieving futility
55:00 A story of child suggestibility
01:01:00 This was an adult burden given to him by adults
01:04:28 Coming out of the belief system
01:11:00 We are gardeners, not sculptors
![Sean Rii, Karyon, Sharzkii - Taungule [My Love] (Official Music Video)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eJoMuypbSzQ/mqdefault.jpg)
My 4-year-old in 1989 asked Father Christmas for a baby doll and a pram. He got them and was thrilled. The next day we went down to the small village in southern Spain where we lived and the old people congratulated him, some laughed kindly, some said he'll be a good Father someday but nobody was shocked. The next year he wanted a pirate ship. Just because boys like playing with dolls doesn't mean they are girls!!!
I could give stories I've heard, but I like to mention about forcing stereotypes and pigeon holing in the same manner as your last sentence. Just because someone, even a kid, has an interest in or wants to do something, there is not one singular "must be" reason for that. Instead of forcing some identity or place on them, offer opportunity, of other other skills or knowledge that would be in association that may be able to use. Even with clothes, and completely ignoring pretend, a male child wanting a dress or a female wanting pants and clothes to be active... Need not be a "Princess" or a "man;" still a Prince, perhaps some interest in clothes and then perhaps related skills; still a female, being work and actively interested doesn't make a male.
In your account, those old people seem to realize this, they didn't just see the doll, they saw the activity and so would be a good father and parent.
Ironically, (not so much, a lot of now hypocrites wrong honestly in the past), there's was I think is a good example of this in a Stephen King novel, "The Eyes of The Dragon." Between how the King see's it and the Prince having and playing with his mother's dollhouse. (And it's not superfluous, as it impacts the story though the character of the Prince.)
"Opportunity & Relationships, not Identity & Demographics"
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That behavior and mentality that "gender identity" is exploiting, because it's not new from them as they only subvert other things for the sake of exploiting them, comes from the behavior and mentality of former theologically religious and "Conservatives" (America). The exact behavior of, "you must be" based on the arbitrary interest or action. Heavily adherent themselves to marketeering authority, social appearance, etc. (Part of why I'm inclined to mention clothes. Could also go into a thing about colors and linguistics.)
It may just mean he has an excellent involved father figure in his life.🎉
same thing with one of my nephews. My sister was critized for it but just said girls play with dolls to learn to be mums. My boys are learning to be dads.
Exactly this.
We love this story, thank you!
“A three year old transgender is like a vegan cat… we all know who’s making the lifestyle decisions” - B. White
I’m a mother of an ROGD girl who has desisted over a year now. I never affirmed but I probably gave the impression that I was on board with the gender program or that I was open to the idea of it. Because of that the “experts” in CAMHs felt that a bit of pressure and bullying would shove me and my daughter more firmly down the social transition route. It is a cult like your guest Rose said. I didn’t know that initially because when they talked about affirmation and following the child’s lead I understood that to mean that they were lying to the child for some therapeutic reasons I did not understand. I thought it seemed like a really bad idea so I only pretended to go along with it to be polite and not openly disrespectful of their profession. Affirmation really is as culty and insane as Rose says. I think that any therapist who has taken part in affirmation should have their licence to practice revoked. I know this will mean a big shortage of therapists but they have done enough harm and have proved their complete unsuitability to advise anyone ever again.
Thanks for sharing your experience, Cailin
Lots of love to you ❤
So true. These therapists know nothing about the children they are sending into total psychological confusion
What factors triggered her desisting? My child is 2.5 years into ROGD… :(
@@upstatenymom2938 I basically deprogrammed her. If I could have done it more gently I would have but I had to get her to snap out of it fast because professionals were involved or as I like to call them “ child catchers” . I wrote about it on Pitt How to Deprogram your ROGD kid. I think the trick is to hold up a mirror to them so they can see that they are in a cult. Stella’s documentary and Abigail Shriers book do this.
I was just in a zoom with parents of trans kids. One said the child "knew" when he was FOUR YEARS OLD " and a preschool teacher corroborated saying she "has seen young children display non gender typical behaviors " as if that wasn't just normal kid behaviors! If four year olds "knew" what they wanted to be when they grew up and were guided ONLY towards that, then we would have mostly firemen as adult careers.
I am optimistic that we can come to a place where we just allow children to play without over reacting. We are learning patience. It is important not to see a four year old as having a fully developed mind or tremendous self actualisation.
The relief she spoke about was finally being free of the burden of cognitive dissonance.
100%
It takes courage to share our eyes opening. It takes strength to admit when you regret or make a mistake
So powerful. What a grounded, thoughtful woman. That is bravery, facing yourself like this. I watched her on Triggernometry too and I cannot help but think ... Who is going to be there for that tragedy unfolding with the most famous "trans kid", who is NOT a child anymore, clearly a wreck but is like the sacrificial lamb for this ideology. What does a Jazz Jennings even do at this point? So much investment by others. How do you get out? How do you ever know your own mind. What does a mother who bought into this, so deeply, do? How has the Reality TV world not helped create a real-life tragedy, and encouraged others? Who will be there for them when that comes crashing down? It's beyond sad. Every time I see a clip of that child reciting the mantra he's been sold of his own memories and what they meant. A girl brain in a boy body. It's just so outrageous! A child brain, brainwashed into believing in such destructive things. My heart hurts for these families. My heart still hurts from my own experience. It's such deep hurt and it's very hard to find anyone to help process it. You two are a godsend. Truly. ❤️
Thanks xx
Notice he's been sucked into the memory hole already... poor bastard.
What makes you think that Jazz Jennings wants to "get out"?
ruclips.net/user/shortshW2AtFi-HVc
Episode 1 of this podcast is what freed me from the cognitive dissonance I was feeling as a nearly 60 year old who had watched the narrative change from GD to GI over the last 3 decades. It's what gave me the courage to step out of ideological capture and tell my ROGD underage child that I was unwilling to provide cross sex hormones.
That's lovely to hear
Key phrase. “The declaration had been made, THIS IS THE MOMENT WE HAD BEEN WAITING FOR.” You don’t invest into this ideology from before birth and put all the pieces into place for this not to become reality.
Exactly, if her second son didn't try an imitate his brother to get some of "your so special" attention his brother was getting she DEFINITELY would "Jazz Jennings'ed" her oldest son. SMH.
It is called confirmation bias.
What a powerful episode.
I’ve heard her story before, but this is so profound. And terrifying at the same time. These poor kids.
Stella and Sasha, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for the work that you do. This is the issue that matters the most, because the potential for permanent, irreparable harm is so great.
Thank you xx
It should be no shock or a surprise to anyone. Sasha & Stella save and change lives!!!
This was the most coherent, moving and enlightening account of the human consequences caused by widespread acceptance of a belief system totally untethered to reality that I have ever heard.
I’m so PROUD of this mother. That she didn’t let her personal PRIDE get in the way of what was best for her child!!!
28:59 wow by this point it is evident that neither the parents nor the therapist had EVER studied the stages of child brain development, for example, Adele Bates Ames or Piaget. Dr. Benjamin Spock said when the parent puts the child "in charge" it makes for anxiousness and depression, because deep inside the child KNOWS he or she doesn't have the life experience to be in charge.
Of course, they studied them. Piaget is mandatory in any psychology course. They just pretend to disagree with them in order to profit from this trend.
Rose is so down to earth. Clearly the rare combo of intellectually AND emotionally intelligent. My impression was how unfair it is that gay women and men have to deal with this ideology coming from within their own captured spaces and therefore catching them unaware. We talk a lot (and rightly so!) about women’s spaces being captured by literal male people and gender identity ideology, thus obfuscating crucial language and action around sexism, but maybe not enough about what the effect has been one LGB people who used to trust these organizations and spaces, and find before they realize what even happened, that these orgs/spaces now work directly against the needs of gay and gender nonconforming men and women- largely without gay people’s consent, and where those gay people are then excommunicated the second they realize the issue and speak out.
Yes it does seem to be a big issue among lesbian, gay and bisexual people
It's bizarre that having a trans child is so super rare, but we're treating it like it's a 1/5 chance. Some parents are almost anxiously looking for signs that they have one of these special children. When they incorrectly declare their child has all the signs it's then being backed up by these predatory clinics, doctors, and the community. These poor kids, we have to stop this somehow.
It's "Indigo Children" all over again...but now monetised by the medical community.
So proud of stella and sasha for providing a reality based alternative to this madness.
Rose is a sensitive, intelligent and courageous woman. To possess the ability to realize one has perhaps made a mistake and be able to change course is a rare quality in humans. Her confidence to follow through on her strategy to address her son's needs while at odds with professionals and friends demonstrates her wisdom. The humanity revealed in this interview had me in tears at the end. The work that Sasha and Stella are doing now will be viewed in hindsight as profound.
This is a truly fascinating story to hear. I can't help considering Rose's story in stark contrast to that of Jeanette and Jazz Jennings. Rose has a very very good head on her shoulders, which tells you the true power of this gender cult. She got sucked in, but she was able to dig herself and her family out of it. A true testament to her resolve.
As a mother who saturated herself in this belief system, i get how Rose thought the way she thought. I also had my own day of reckoning, realising thst gender ideology was indeed a cult. Thankfully, my children were still very young. Both my son and daughter are non conforming, and i had all the cult children's books to show how 'woke' i was. Well, now i orient them to their biological realities and assure them there are no right or wrong ways to be a girl or boy.
Every baby step towards understanding is golden, and this podcast is bursting with them. Our mystical attachment to the phrases, "You can be anything you want to be", and, "Out of the mouths of babes..." can so badly hamstring us as stewards of our children's growth. To make the point that there are immutable things in the world, limits set by biology and genetics, is so important to accept, even as it refutes the "no limits" sophistry that has infused our culture since the late 1960's. I am over 70, and 50 years of conditioning is difficult to battle, but podcasts like this one help so much. Thank you!
The is story is a perfect example of how introducing this ideology to very young children will absolutely confuse and destabilize them. Thank goodness this mama was intuitive enough to realize that and change course ❤️ Children need guidance to feel safe and secure, they might act like they want to take the wheel but ultimately feeling like they need to choose everything in their lives will cause them distress.
At three years old, my son started telling me that before I was his mommy he had a black mommy and daddy and that he had black skin. Eventually he stopped talking about it around the age of 5 and now he’s a teen and doesn’t remember. My other child insisted for years he needed to have a banana plantation in South America. Begging us to move to Costa Rica it was nuts.
Rose was so honest and the story is so humanizing. I love the admission: we lost the instinct as a parent to lead and orient our child to the world and society. There is nothing more disarming of the "affirmative model" than the concept of parental responsibility! I really would appreciate a follow-up that takes a deep dive into how "gender theory" took hold of Rose in the beginning. It seems very cult like but where is the accountability when it comes to "social justice" and in particular feminist and gender theory which are ideologically driven and are forms of indoctrination wrapped in the "rouse of higher / advanced education"
Yes, Rose's reflections were so insightful and deep, thanks for the comment, Mark!
@@widerlenspod You are so awesome and so important. Thank you for what you do. RIP: Pina Neuman (31), Xavier Raddysh (23), Lilja Tamasin Johanna Bruckshaw (24), Henry Berg-Brousseau, Kayleigh Scott, Vanessa Vincenzo Barrett, Yaeli Martinez and many, many other trans people lost far to young to this movement.
There's nothing wrong with feminism! It got us the vote, the right to equal pay and things like that. It's not a 'theory' like gender ideology and unless it's being wielded by PoMo social justice activists, it's not a form of indoctrination. Moreover, feminism and gender ideology are actually at odds
@@ebflegg "Feminism" is ALL things, to ALL people; It's so wide, vague, and contested that virtually ANY specific position (with a very small number of exceptions) can come under the umbrella of "feminism".
To assume that YOUR version of "feminism" is the same as the "feminism" ANOTHER person is discussing, is a huge assumption.
-is "feminism" supportive of "trans-women"? You can find plenty of big-name feminists, who will aSWEAR that TRUE feminism MUST affirm mtfs... and just as many swearing the exact opposite...
Does feminism support sex work?
Does feminism endorse marriage? Or stay-at-home motherhood in a nuclear family?
Is feminism comparable with capitaism? Marxism? Christianity? Islam?
There are hundreds of thousands of self-proclaimed "feminists" who would SCOFF at each of the above questions... and hundreds of thousands MORE, who think Islamic feminism is toes super-,duper legit, and the ONLY true form of feminism.
The label has been far too vague and contested to be meaningfully (without elaborated) since the 90s, if not earlier.
It's so puzzling to see parents be so fast to affirm a new gender of their child, knowing that if transition happens their child be condemned to life-long dependence on medications, surgical treatments, and would never have functional sexual organs that correspond with their preferred gender. Just thinking of a perfect body of my child going through all of that, to simply become an imitation of the opposite sex - there must be better ways to treat gender dysphoria
Especially, if you have spent any time with small children, you don't have to be an expert in child development to know that they have such whims and fantasies, and yet the child says "call me girl" and they take them down this medicalization path. Makes No sense. So wack
They were indoctrinated lesbians
Stella I obviously went to a different Catholic School (1960s) we were not taught that we were magical beings. My school was progressive for its time. This whole discourse reminded of a the serenity prayer "God, give us courage to change what must be altered, serenity to accept what cannot be helped, and the insight to know the one from the other."
I agree. I was raised in the 70s and I never heard of such stuff. I love Stella's work but I could do without her constant sideways comments about Catholicism. Gender ideology is a product of our post-Christian, truth-denying Sexual Revolution world. If we all accepted what the church teaches on the reality of sex, none of us would be dealing with the gender idiocy.
@@mattolgamcsorley9307 I have noticed she does sidestep and comments about Catholicism and I too find it annoying. I am not grafted onto any particular religious tradition but I am getting tired atheists constantly belittling and critizing religion. Inspite of all the bad things the Catholic Church has done it has been a champion with social justice issues.
This conversation is so rich and deeply honest. It’s breathtaking.
Rose is so insightful. I love how carefully she observed her sons' behaviors and her own internal struggles with this whole experience
Well she deserves some credit for eventually braking free from this mental mind virus, but her son was 100% right when he said "mum YOU did this to me" she said it herself, she had this ideology during the pregnancy and she confused the fck out of him and it nearly ended up with her son being castrated, it was ONLY because her second son started copying his brother that snapped her out of it, pathetic.
All adults are misremembering their own childhood and young adulthood when they say "oh I would've been so much happier back then ..if"
My highest praise and gratitude to this mother and her partner for having the courage to not only walk the hardest path but for also choosing to share their journey publicly, at a time like this it is a true act of bravery.
What happened to giving these children the opportunity to be insistent, consistent and persistent? If we jump at the first mention of a statement or even just an idea how would we truely know? Where is the space for curiosity? to explore? to question? To learn and understand? Where is the space for all this on both sides, for parents and child?
Isn’t the space to question exactly that which is supposed to be held and facilitated by a therapist ?
The more I research this topic the more I think if the book ‘The emperor who has no clothes’ it seems everyone is so scared of the social implications that the vast majority have taped their mouths and their minds up in case they are attacked and it’s the children who pay the highest price.
What kind of parenting is this? The hardest part of being a parent is having to say “NO “ but as most of us learn it’s also the greatest gift we can give our children, to teach them the limits of resilience in the face of adversity, there are some things we cannot have and we cannot delay our happiness for when something happens or when we finally get or achieve something.
Along with seeing our children for who they are and supporting them in every way possible, along with teaching them gratitude gratitude for the simplest things in life it’s also important to teach them that not getting their way in everything in life doesn’t mean that it’s the end of the world. Life is full of compromises and we are still whole in the midst of our difficulties.
Such a compassionate and introspective person. I have two grown children and can tell you whatever is happening today, was not even on our radar when my kids were growing up. This is a ‘new’ thing and IMO, has convoluted normal childhood experiences. We need to go back to Eric Ericsson’s developmental phases and if our children are not able to successfully transition from one phase to the next, then we step in and help them to accomplish this. I think many children, whether it be from one parent homes, or both parents working, or parents of progressive ideology - children today, and especially with social media influence, are just totally confused. Take away the social media, home school for a short time, do gender specific sports or dance/ballet and I ‘think’ most kids would outgrow their gender confusion. Let’s focus on mental health and do ‘watchful waiting’.
Salute to this channel for including the link to the Trigonometry podcast. Like everything on this channel it shows your true support.
I have so much compassion for children who truly do feel that they don't belong and for their parents who just want to make them happy, but I really do have to question how any adult can take seriously the desires and expressed "needs" of a 7-year-old. If our parents had allowed us to do and think anything we wanted, we'd eat only ice cream all day and wouldn't go to school because our imaginary friends would keep us company.
They're children! They don't know who they are, let alone what they want.
You took the words out of my mouth Reading the replies, I thought I was the only one who thinks like that
The kindergarten teacher had 2 trans daughters? No way . The odd are a trillion to one. Parents please be parents and stop overreacting and overthinking every move your kid makes.
@@doreenmaurer2018 I bet she thinks she is the best parent as well, just imagine what she is teaching the children in her class, SMH.
Shouldn't it be statistically near-impossible to have TWO such children in the same family? Doesn't that thought occur to the parents she mentioned in her group who also had a younger sibling declare a trans identity?? Wouldn't that whole group think "Well wait, something else is going on because the chances of 2 in the same family are astronomically small."
Where and how did Rose come to have her beliefs before she had her children? I think it would be important to talk about this.
She's a lesbian with a butch lesbian partner, this is mandatory ideology for their "community".
No doubt she is no longer a member "in good standing" within lgbtqiabcd cult.
No doubt this is the reason for her anonymity, the activists in this "community" are completely unhinged and don't take dissent lightly.
This video helps me to appreciate my parents. I'm a 38 year old male. During my teens I started experiencing negative feelings toward my gender and later around the age of 20 it festered into deeply rooted hatred toward myself being male. And around this same time I admitted to my parents that I wanted to be a woman. - mind you this is before gender ideology took root in our culture. But my parents response wasn't to simply accept it and let me lead. They didn't. Clearly I was an adult. But at the time I was still living with them and dependent on them financially for a place to live. Anyway, looking back I appreciate how they didn't just give into my beliefs. They highly questioned my thinking. Which helped me to not assume that everything I was believing was true. For about a year around this time I had been following many trans people on RUclips. And their beliefs were so intense about "just do it" and transition. And I fell for that. And was ready to run away with that. But when my parents explained why they weren't for it, it helped me to think for myself and not assume what "seems" right.
To this day I still have gender dysphoria, but I know that even with that, I'm learning how to embrace the more perceived as feminine attributes in healthy ways. I still have difficulties with accepting my being male. But I believe I'm finding ways to include the feminine without thinking I need to be a woman to experience those things.
Rose and her partner no doybt saved a lot of families a lot of grief by showing this was at least possible.
I just cried so hard listening to how the song, “Dear Theodoisa” made her feel. If you have a son, this song is so special. It’s my song with my son and we have danced together to it hundreds of times. I am here as a grateful mother, like Rose’s partner, that this movement didn’t exist during my youth as I know I would have fallen to it in some way. I was a women’s studies minor and child development major 20 years ago. But, now as the mother of 3 lovely girls and 1 wonderful boy and not to mention I created a homeschool microschool out of my house and have been affecting dozens of kids and families in my life that I would just say that what is being offered to conscious parents as an approach to combating gender stereotypes is so off the mark and is regressive in that it forces us back into a gender binary. So to that fact all the children I have the privilege of working with are referred to as the biological sex they are BUT will never hear a “girl’s toy-boy’s toy kind of statement out of my mouth, and instead create an environment where kids can truly be themselves and like and not like whatever suits them. I wish I could share all that I’ve observed of what happens when kids are able to be kids in a true, trusting environment like one of my heroes, Maria Montessori, would have envisioned. I love your podcast and I especially have loved this incredible interview with this brave mom who listened to her heart.
This was an important talk. We've heard from detransitioners, but not so much from the parents, who at some point came to their senses and resisted. So, thank you.
I would add, that advocating for kids to be put in the lead, is not only dumb and dangerous, but also a deliberate strategy. Of course, I'm not talking about your guest or people like her - confused, but well-meaning and caring people. I'm not talking about the parents, who let themselves be gas-lit and forced into suppressing their parental instincts. I would venture to say that not even the majority of tr*ansgender activists can see what's really going on here.
Putting kids in the lead is a lie. Simple as that. It's a a ploy to defang parents and render children vulnerable. By definition, kids don't lead. They simply can't, because they know diddly-squat about the world or themselves, for that matter. In reality, what happens, when you "put your kid in the lead", is you're putting someone or something that is NOT your child, not you nor your spouse in the lead. Let's be very mindful of that fact.
Sasha, Stella, have you ever wondered what the "brains" behind all of this look like? I'm thinking of the minds of the individuals who gave us post-modernism, deconstructionism, critical you-name-it theory, queer theory etc. and those who are keeping this nonsense alive. What was their childhood like?
Just to be clear, I'm not claiming that childhood trauma necessarily condemns the victims to be bitter and dark for the rest of their lives, but I find it hard to imagine, how someone, who had a positive experience growing up, would push as hard for what amounts to the destruction of children's lives families and societies at large.
Take Jeffrey Marsh for example. It's quite obvious he has an axe to grind with someone. Neither his fake smile nor his sweet words could fool me. It seems to me thay he can barely contain his rage most of the time. Whatever happened to him, whatever the source of his misery - the guy seems hell-bent on spreading his resentment to the rest of us.
As a parent, I'm not down with that.
You raise many good point, it's such a complex confluence of theories that it is very diffuclt to figure out who is leading what.
It's the communists of course - destroy democracy from within. Or an agenda to depopulate the earth by sterilizing children. Ok, that was my foray into conspiracy theories. I don't really believe that.... but the whole thing really seems absolutely evil in essence.
It can be prettily wrapped up in social justice jargon but it still reeks of rot.
At the absolute root of this is the desire and willingness to chop healthy body parts off vulnerable people and turn children into actual living science experiments. When you pull back the curtains and let the light in - that is what is clearly seen.
I keep going back to BIID... we *DON'T* chop people up because they're mentally ill and think their leg doesn't belong to them. What mass delusion is making ppl think breasts and genitals are any different!?? They justify it with if we don't do this, these ppl will die by suicide. But WHY weren't they dying of suicide 20 years ago?!
I'm convinced that Jeffrey Marsh is a child predator, and I think a lot of them are.
I would absolutely love to hear from Jeffrey Marsh's family to find out why he's so intent on separating all children from theirs and going "no contact".
I agree that he seems rage-filled and resentful. He's one of those people who really needs an enemy to blame all his problems on instead of taking personal responsibility. I don't think he believes everything he says though and if you've seen how much he charges as a "life coach" then it's also clearly part of a scam to capture and make money from the most vulnerable in society. Separating children from parents is one of his many manipulative techniques to make them dependent on him.
Commenting to get more content like this. Stella and Sasha, you are awesome
thank you!
A lot of people are praising this person for coming to her senses but I'm a lot more critical than others. That's all I'll say.
Exactly the same.
I'm glad for the kid as his life isn't ruined before it even began, but I have no sympathy for the mother.
I won't say much more so I don't get nasty.
What a remarkable and powerful speaker Rose is
Sasha and Stella are willing to get into the weeds and face the consequences of this dangerous ideology. I’m so admiring of Rose and her partner and their sons. Thank you Rose for sharing. ❤
I realy enjoy your conversations and interviews. Greetings from holland.
Hoi!
Thank you so much for this incredibly insightful and kind conversation. As a therapist myself who has been feeling increasingly confused about the direction our field has been taking with this, your podcast has been so refreshing and helpful for seeing that there are other perspectives on this issue that remain compassionate and even ultimately supportive of trans folks. Rose really hit the nail on the head when she said it feels like leaving a cult. Truthfully I feel afraid to talk about this issue with other clinicians in my progressive community but I am feeling increasingly uncomfortable with the well intentioned but ultimately experimental gender affirmative treatment for children. These talks have been extremely valuable for me and I think as the harsh reality of medicalization continues to play out in the research, we will be re-evaluating the politicized path we've unknowingly been taking.
I wish there was more discussion about typical development of children that go on to be homosexual for parents. For example, it’s well documented in the literature that males that go on to be homosexual adults have some level of gender non-conforming behavior in childhood. I fear that children who would otherwise grow up to be healthy well adjusted gay men and women are now being pushed into transgender identities because parents see gender non-conformity and are jumping to trans. It would also be interesting to hear how gender non-conformity differs in boys vs girls. Gender non-conformity in girls doesnt seem to be as strongly correlated with homosexuality in adulthood as it does in boys.
You're right, many - certainly not all - tomboys seem to grow up straight while the majority of feminine boys seem to grow up to be gay. We do discuss this issue with Arty Morty in episode 3 (seems so long ago!)
This is such a gift! ❤ From one parent of a trans identifying child to another, thank you for your gift of truth and vulnerability.
Terrifying.
Finally listened to this episode. I pray Rose finds her Ocean of Mercy (I suspect she will). She’s an excellent role model for mothers everywhere.
This whole situation reminded me of a few things I was involved with when I was very young. when I was about 10 years old, I used to run around my bedroom with a big towel over my head and pretend to be a lady with long hair. I enjoyed waving the makeshift hair all over the place and prancing around. I dunno, it was just a fun thing to do; I did all sorts of whacky things when I was by myself, and sometimes even in front of my friends; it was as if I was destined to be a performer of some sort. It even went further when I was about 11 years old. I organized a section of our school show to be a 'Miss World' event, where us boys dressed in skirts and wigs and walked up and down a catwalk as one of the teachers announced our countries of origin. I honestly thought nothing of it and was quite proud of my reproduction of that Televised event that I enjoyed so much; but I do remember the embarrassed look on my parents' faces as the show progressed.
Aside from the concerned looks, no issue was made of this by my parents. And it turned out to be a passing fad. I never had any doubt in my mind that I was a boy; but the acting as a woman was an enjoyable fantasy while it lasted. This was back in the early 80's. I have to wonder if a kid noways, having the same curiosity that I had back then, decided to do as I did, would have the school 'affirming' his fantasy identity. Back then, there was neither criticism nor affermation; well, not directed to me anyway.
"The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears"
💗💗💗💗💗
I have real heartache and grief from serious mistakes I have made as well. It helps me to remember that my child is always learning, growing, and "unfolding" 🥰 and will continue to long after I am gone.
Seeing me claim responsibility for my mistakes and work to fix what I can, to make the best of where we are at, is fertile soil for her own personal growth. It models for her *how* to move forward as she inevitably faces her own struggles. It's one of those conditions by which we create that environment conducive for their potential to flourish.
And... children are resilient. It's ok to be an imperfect person at any stage in life, we're all learning.
The courage to truly examine the path we're on, uncomfortable as it is, and the integrity to hold ourselves accountable and to work to reconcile our mistakes to the best of our abilities are imperative qualities for - at the very least - being our own authentic selves.
People mature through different avenues. Parenting children changes us, matures us, helps us to also unfold and grow into our potential.
The deep dark lonely despair I can 100% relate to 💔 I was *this close* to giving in to it. Who knew I could survive such pain? Probably my own mother.
She also gave me the gift of accepting myself as perfectly imperfect "warts and all" 😁
Growth and change are always possible. Thanks for sharing this!
I notice you people seem to think the life long damage that's been done to these children and society is nothing more than a big oopsie. People should be in prison when this is done.
We think it's a very serious issue - hence our commitment to this podcast and our other work in this area.
I think you need to get to know them better. They have to operate within the framework given. They want better care for gender diverse people, both those firmly in the sacred gender identity camp and those not. It's everywhere in "culture". As therapists their goals are to help ppl affected by offering alternative understanding and treatment pathways. You can't help ppl by alienating them.
Stella ,Sasha, and Rose are out there fighting the good fight. Don't put down the peoole doing the hard work
I’m wondering about that kindergarten teacher who is leading kids into this.
great point
Extremely powerful. Thank you ❤
I really don't believe what I'm hearing and I can't say what I would like to say That's all
I’m about halfway through and bursting with comments. What a powerful episode.
Rose discussing the concept of futility really resonates with me. It’s one of the big lessons I’ve learned and formed my own primitive philosophy about. It’s good to hear that it might be part of actual mental health education.
At the risk of revealing my nerdiness … when I’m faced with a universe that refuses to negotiate with me, I’m reminded of this quote from the original Star Trek, spoken (fittingly) to a teen:
“There’s a million things in this universe you can have, and there’s a million things you can’t have. It’s no fun facing that, but that’s the way things are.”
ruclips.net/video/duzYhRyyepU/видео.html
Amazing contribution!! Thank you so much.
As a parent that is going through this I know how painful it is. Loads of guilt, shame, confusion is in yhe mix.
I believe it spreads more on adults tha were not accepted in their childhood and we are desperately trying to give our children that acceptance we didn't have...yhe creators of this agenda know this very well, that is why it fits perfectly.
My admiration for Rose and I am so happy for your relieving outcome.
Thanks for this podcast, you do great work!
Thank you for your encouraging words !
Such a powerful story. Thank you for your work, all 💛
Thank you so much for this amazing honest conversation. I wish everyone could watch this, and learn mental discernment and logical thought
When adolescents are placed on puberty b1ockers at the onset of puberty, they will suffer a tragedy unprecedented since lobotomies. Adolescents and young adults who undergo "bott0m surgery" may need dialysis when they reach middle age. Will we deal with the consequences of these experiments or bury them and erase the memory of ever trying them on vulnerable teens and adults?
This is brilliant
"It's a parents job to orient their child to their biological reality."
Very moving and powerful
we think so too!
Thank you!
Thankyou so much. You reminded me of my little boy. I remember thinking "I can't wait for you to unfold"..He is 17, he is being referred for hormones to transition to female. I know it isn't right. Thanks for telling me to trust my doubts
Thank you, Rose.
An American Indian tribal elder said once that his ancestors gave warnings to their people about the decline of the planet and the people that live on it. One of the things they were told was "watch how people treat their children...when people begin to mistreat their children the earth is in decline".
Take it however you want. But i've never seen nor could i even imagine such widespread, culturally and politically sanctioned mistreatment of children.
Interesting, thanks for your comment
I really admire Rose's wisdom and courage for recognizing, analyzing and then leading her son out of the destructive identity path. I just want to make this one remark - there are only female adults in the family, and I believe that the lack of a father figure only adds to the boys' confusion about their gender and gender role.
My grandfather (who would be 110) wore a dress until he was 4--like all other boys in his generation. He wasn't "trans" (whatever that means today).
I wish there was a way I could post a photo. He and his brother were in a studio portrait. His brother was smiling; he wasn't! Not only was he in a dress, they put a curly blond wig on him!
You are almost there. If you find the courage to stand up to the leading "experts" find the courage to take it a step further and ask yourself, and others, who benefits from this? Who is pushing this? And it is not just this issue. It is across the social/political spectrum: climate, vaccines, immigration. Bring it back to basics and solve the underlying issues. Because it's not gender, CO2, Covid19, refugee crisis. Don't be afraid to ask YOURSELVES the hard questions.
Goddess bless you for speaking your truth. Blessed Be.
Kids say the wrong words my daughter always used to say "why" instead of "because ".. thank god she didn't say he or boy instead of girl or she!
So, 'Rose' accepts Responsibility. That's a good thing. (Ooo. "Depth of despair" on the parent side. Yikes! 😬 )
The degree of gullibility in this area is crazy. Real Emperor's new clothes stuff.
The therapist and school did not do any favours. Must go against safeguarding rules.
Very glad you are around to provide an antidote, with a slightly more gentle listening feminine approach than people like Matt Walsh.
That was hard to listen to. Very brave lady. ❤
absolutely batshit fkn crazy. it is psychological abuse of children. glad you woke up, glad you did the experiment and reported the results, but far out, that was so irresponsible. i bet both kids will be really angry at you and your wife in later years
sorry, i'm in a mood today and have very little sympathy right now. a very important story, good on your for sharing, but i'm so angry at you
Wow wow wow
There must be something about the age of 4. When my daughter was 4, she came to me and said, " mommy, I want to marry daddy when i grow up" I was a little rattled by that. But I simply said, mommy is already married to daddy. For about 2 wks she had a huge crush on her dad.
That's so interesting! Thanks for sharing
I also wanted to marry my daddy when I was about 3 or 4. No fuss was made of it. I remember my parents smiling and joking and after a while it stopped. Can you imagine a world where this could be taken literally and how that would end up?? No, I can't either, but nor could I imagine a world where children were affirmed in their fantasy that they were the opposite sex and legally mutilated in order to make their dreams come true.
@ellehann that's right. Imagine that world, or even a single family convincing a little girl that she, in fact, will marry her father when she's old enough. It's a disturbing concept. To me just as disturbing as "affirming " a child
1913: youre not a girl dont be stupid and go back to work. 2023: i will hold your feelings with the decision of your tears and my love and acceptance
Also, where does she live?
I have every day more problem with saying or hearing "it is not transphobia". What does transphobia mean anyway ? If it means like the word etymologically statistiques "fear of" yes I fear minors making a transition, and especially terrified to imagine mine in this situation. If it means "hate" of people having done transition, or wishing them any harm: of course not ! Quite the opposite, I have nothing but empathy and hope they will get through life with as little harm possible given the situation they put themselves in. Now is it transphobic to say it is better for a human not to be trans than to be trans ? Well, if it is, I take the word gladly OF COURSE it is better, who would wish for their children to risk their health, fertility, physical integrity, mental health etc. ? Laws that prevent mental health professionals from looking for a solution to heal gender dysphoria are insane ! We must give structure to our kids, as an artist I know that before breaking the rules one must know them and Master them.
I’m halfway through this and trying to be tolerant and understanding. It’s hard, I just don’t get how people fall for this ideology. But I’ll keep watching a wider lens. Even though I don’t get it, I do love Sacha’s and Stella’s compassion and tolerance.
I agree, it's INFURIATING.
45:04 I'm not clear at this point how old the child is?
I can remember hating dresses. Desperately wanting to go in the boys yard and play football. Loved male company and got called sonny quite often even looked like a boy. As an adult women played rugby and every other male based sports. But im straight have 3 sons and 4 grandkids. I dread to think what would have happened had i been born now,the offer as a 7 year old me to simply take some pills and i could have turned into that boy. I find it terrifying that children are behind led down this garden path. Its ok to be me that Tom boy a bit different but happy.
Thanks for your comment Suzanne!
Why not say "you're born a boy/girl and that's as fixed as your birthday or what people are your parents and will never change. But you can be a boy/girl however you want." What harm can that possibly do..?
feeelings, too much feelings, feeling cpu is overheating
O if we but knew what we do
When we delve or hew
I frequently have a line of an old Dean Friedman song in my head ' We're not as smart as we like to think we are'
Don't assume for a second that just because you have good intentions other people do, as well. There is a ton of insincerity, gas-lighting and pretending, due to the social pressure to jump on this band-wagon. And an unspeakable cowardice on the part of people who actually know better.
Kids love make-believe and probing boundaries. Could be these boys said, "Mommy, I'm a girl," hoping to hear, "No you're not, honey."
I'm glad she stopped abusing her kids. However, I get a strong narcissist vibe from this lady. The over analyzing and psychologizing of her young children seem to be more about her ego. She wants everyone to see how brilliant and insightful she is. She's ascribing these deep, esoteric thoughts and emotions to kids, who are actually thinking about how cool dinosaurs are and farts are funny. We encourage kids to ruminate and self reflect to a pathological level now. Stop sending kids to psychologists and therapists. It just gives them something to dwell on and use as a crutch down the road. Unless they are setting fires or killing cats, maybe just give them tasks and projects to focus on instead.
Yez Rose yes this is what I've said to my children... you're a boy and you're a girl... you can do anythibg you want that doesn't hurt anyone...you can wear whatever you want and play with anything any boy or girl play with... etc.the only thing is it will be harder for you to pee standing up without help...and to the boy... you wont be able to get pregnant but you can be a daddy and do everything with your children... we then tried to be neutral etc. But i then felt i was countering the culture and gender conformity too much and not affirming their sex enough. So i had to say to my daughter do you want a princess dress? You know you can have a princess dress too etc. To my daughter because i worried that in all the jeggings and sweatshirts and tree climbing she night think she wasnt able to be as girly as other girls...
I really relate to Rose you want to do the best for your babies and you dont know whatvit is... bit being stereotypical but also lettibg them know they can ve their robust birth sex... tricky...
Sigh. I mean I like that she acknowledged her mistakes BUT her own ideas further confused her son. I feel like some of these parents need therapy regarding this issue before they jump on the gender affirming bandwagon. But thank you for the interview.
Am I crazy for suspecting that two feminist women raising a little boy might have had something to do with this? After all, when the #thefutureisfemale, what feminist mother wouldn’t transition her otherwise privileged oppressor of a son? and what boy whose mother is “raising a feminist boy” wouldn’t internalize self-hatred for himself as male and identify as a girl to escape his position of condemnation? Am I crazy?
If you think that, I'm afraid you're not listening very well or trying to understand earnestly.
@@climb318 You could be correct, I remain open to being wrong... though I do feel the initial assumption to be somewhat justified given the state of contemporary culture.
You don't understand feminism. Thankfully there are also heterosexual couples where both partners are feminists and they raise their children to respect everyone and not to limit people based on their sex. Most trans kids come from regressive, conservative surroundings where they listen to stereotypes like boys shouldn't play with dolls, girls should be polite and quiet etc. So if your parents beat you for being a boy who wants to play ballet, it's more likely you'll wish not to be a boy.
@@LoudMinded Feminism is cancer. What have I misunderstood?
@@LoudMinded
Most trans kids are white and middle or upper class.
I don't judge parents who are affirmers or questioners too hard either way.
Yes, we think the parents are doing their best. Bringing your child to a clinic should be the right route to take. The professionals should be providing reliable care.
Why did this woman even come to this podcast?? If she wanted to be the teacher of the interviewers, with no interruption or questioning, she could have just shared her story on her own. She comes off as very condescending to me. The arrogance is losing me.
Hi last night there was a super lady called Sophie on Trigonometry. You probably know anyway.
Great, thanks. We adore the Triggernometry podcast!
@@widerlenspod
Super. Non medical experiences are good to hear.
comment for the algorithm
thank you!
The road to hell is paved with em. That’s an adage for a reason
But I gotta say this was really moving and I’m there for these parents. They have suffered
Being able to correct course takes a great deal of insight.
Two women do not make for a balanced set of parents. Men are less emotional. Men normally would tell the older son "you're a boy, son, get over it. You get to pee standing up. It's worth it."