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I think what I initially struggled with as a new clinician was getting a grasp of the shifting landscape in regards to trans identifying patients within mental health. I graduated in 2016 as the philosophy regarding 'old school transexualism' was probably in its final death knell though I didn't realize it at the time. Affirmation was the de facto treatment for dysphoric kids at the adolescent program I worked for. Every professional resource and training I turned to to better understand our program's spike in teen girls identifying as trans, led to more ideologically driven materials who were less than curious about this phenomenon and in fact implied that it was phobic to even ask. Finding "A wider lens" was a breath of fresh air after years of professional gaslighting. I have since moved on from working with minors but I find that some of the most difficult conversations I've had with people since is getting them to understand the paradigm shift. They still think there are extensive gatekeeping measures with long waiting periods and comprehensive assessments that miraculously determine with absolute accuracy which dysphoric kids will grow up to be trans identifying adults. In reality a lot has changed thanks to so many of our institutions jumping into bed with the activist groups. As it stands any warm body who graduated from a mental health program can declare themselves to be a 'gender expert' and can guide a child down the pathway of medicalization. Or as your guest said, clients can completely bypass what little safeguards remain and buy their hormones online. What a mess...
The fact that there are so few subscribers, much less views, tells me this podcast is being suppressed by the algorithm to the extreme. I challenge those of us who follow Genspect, Stella and Sasha, etc. to please share this with one person, one clinician- anyone who could take time to listen to this very necessary information. Until more people who identify as progressive and liberal start saying, “ I’ve learned more and I was wrong.” this will never change.
My fall semester begins on 14 August, and I will be sharing this with my professors. I’m in the health sciences program, human services in particular. I’ve been too scared to bring up my concerns until now, even though I’m very outspoken about it on twitter.
I tried sharing their interview with Scarlet with my best friend of seven years and he wouldn't watch because first he googled Genspect and found out that they've been labeled as transphobic. He wouldn't watch interviews of other detransitioners, either, giving various excuses including that the interviewer had the wrong politics. He stopped speaking to me a few weeks later. I haven't heard from him in weeks and we used to communicate on a daily basis. The last few Signal texts I sent to him have remained unread.
I love the approach of Sasha and Stella to ppl who started out with one belief or opinion and changed their position over time and given more information and more experience. It gives me a lot of hope that more ppl will be brave enough to speak up without being treated as war criminals
@@dreimalnein22She's moved away from the field now though? From a purely practical position I doubt she'd have access to patient records in order to do that
@@robertmarshall2502 i thought so too but finding people online in social networks isn't hard if you just remember their name; plus Sara's reach just to ask publicly isn't small.
@@dreimalnein22 I'm trying to put myself in her shoes and I think it's a very complicated one. Firstly I don't know what the ethics of contacting someone you worked with as a patient in the past are unless you're doing some kind of research paper. I've also thought this before when talking to ppl online caught up in this and who've already had medical intervention that can't be reversed. I sometimes just avoid certain discussions that affect that person personally because there seems to be no upside. Would it be "kinder" to let them imagine they made the right choice when the damage is done? And I get the impression she isn't completely against transition anyway. Is it likely that she'll only get responses from those who are happy? Or more likely to just get the angry responses or lawsuits? Would it help them if she went back and said I think we were wrong or do more harm? They mentioned the Tavistock workers who resigned and I can really see why for their own mental health they might just wish to close that chapter and never look back. I genuinely can't unpick what is morally the right move other than what she's already done in terms of raising the alarm about her concerns.
@@robertmarshall2502 right right. It's just hard whenever someone in the position she was in is asked, like also Dr Zucker was asked by detransitioners in Killarney - and they must reply they have no clue. They never established followup relationships within their institution. Wanted this way by the transitioners themselves. The bright star regarding this aspect is Az Hakeem, with his mixed up (soon to be trans + trans regret) group therapy setting 20 years ago. But its great where they are at. All of them just want to help and be professional within their concept of the topic.
I've been aware of using the term " dead name " for over 30 years, but with older adults. Hearing parents say " dead naming my child" in elementary schools is pure insanity.
Yes, that particular thing surprised me, that Sara didn't know/didn't use that terminology as late as 2010-2015. (Well not that she didn't use it, I think it would be counterproductive for a therapist to use such a negative label.) I don't know when I first came across that term: I had a bout of being interested in trans-issues pre-internet (or actually, to be precise, when the Internet was not an everyday thing, so ca 1990-95 or so), and then it came on my radar again in maybe 2008-2010, and then of course the modern onslaught from around 2014. I might have encountered it back in the 1990ies, but not sure. Probably. Then it was in a context of adults, and I always found it a bit histrionic, though understandable°. Like people commiserating about parents or relatives still not accepting their new name and gender-role 10+ years into transition. °Understandable in the sense that it encapsulates the grief and anger about family not (fully, not yet) accepting the transitioned person's new reality. As a sort of venting code word. And sometimes it was also used when describing (what was felt as) particularly egregious, malicious, public denial of someone's transreality. But as Sara well describes in this interview, the world back then was VERY different for transpeople. (I think I need to write a longer comment just about this.)
@@weltschmerski Yes, there's something really disgusting, disrespectful, contemptous, discarding & rebellious all rolled into one in that description of one's 'birth name'. If that isn't the epitomy of hating and killing a major aspect of one's identity AND it's huge significance and ties to the relationship with one's parent/s who gave the birth name, 99.999% with love, I don't know what is!
Here in the UK and having a mind of my own - I don’t mind where I get the ‘correct’ information. We have the well-established and revered BBC who don’t talk about this matter in a balanced manner so I look for my knowledge wherever I can get it. Ladies -carry on talking wherever and with whoever you need to to get this important message and knowledge out there. Thank you..
Glad I'm not the only one that feels uncomfortable with some of the sources I end up watching/reading to get any information on the subject, particularly in the UK. Can't remember the last time I watched the beeb for anything. Grew up trusting them and believing what they presented was the truth, how far they've fallen.
We are very uncomfortable with the guilt-by-association game. We are open to discussing these issues in an honest way with a variety of people from different perspectives and backgrounds.
Thank you for this incredibly informative interview. I appreciated Sara's interview in What is a Woman. She's articulate, intelligent and very compassionate. The look of absolute shock on Sasha and Stella's faces that a father committed suicide after the court overruled his authority reflected my own shock at that sad news. @46:00 What's been done to our kids is a crime against humanity.
@@widerlenspod there are children, spouses and parents who have experienced such extreme distress after a family member underwent "transition" and have been either ignored or disparaged for not supporting the transition that they have taken their own lives. This is a serious travesty. In one family where a father transitioned, both the fathers son and ex wife ended their lives shortly after and finally so did the father about 7yrs post transition, leaving behind another child and extended family in greif and confusion without any form of meaningful support.
@@Gingerblaze It's truly tragic. And the added tragedy is no-one is being held accountable and America is still peddling the 'gender affirming care' narrative. It makes me sick to my stomach and actually anxious mentally. People don't realise how this is affecting the mental health of wider society, literally fighting to hold on to reality and the heavy assualt on language.
I loved Sara’s talk with Jordan Peterson. It’s really a Birds Eye view into the mindset of those docs who were on the front lines. It’s really very powerful to hear her rebuke the steps that we’re taken. Her voice should be one of the first to be given higher platform. People really need to hear what she has to say. Another great interview, ladies❤️
This was such a great, insightful discussion. This guest was the consummate professional in her field. She observed so much, cared about her clients on all levels ie from a human and experimental perspective. She shed so much light in this discussion with the comparison between then and now, in professional approach, changing client demographics and language.
Really? A "consumate proffesional" she was a brainwashed ideologue that took 10yrs to realise she was hurting children. The thought never crossed her mind that blocking a child's puberty was WRONG. SMH
You ladies are just the best. You are keeping me sane. I wish I could show this video to every parent, educator, therapist and ideologue cheering on this medical scandal.
I imagine some of these clinicians will face guilt when their patients go on to live miserable lives due to these mistakes and unfortunately rhere will be many who dont care. This was very insightful.
Like Helen Joyce stated about the parents who have allowed this to happen to their children, the true believers, many will psychologically need to stay indoctrinated to live with themselves. It’s a CULT.
Many do not care about the moral implications because they have bills to pay. Some will have a sense of superiority that wants the "affected" to suffer.
Brilliant chat ladies and great choice of guest, Sara is so brave for speaking out. I know there is still such a fight to be had but people like Sara and the guy you had on from the school (also a fabulous episode…they all are, thank u!) will be catalysts to others speaking out and the general societal feeling/outlook will gradually change. You’re chipping away at it one interview at a time and I thank you every day for what you’re doing xH
1:11:09 that’s something I still think about for me. I wonder if I am repressing being trans, but I take a different approach. I see myself as I am able to mange any gender dysphoria I have without the need to medically transition or live as the opposite sex.
I don't know what you think but that second sentence sounds very positive to me. In a different but similar context I know ppl who feel very empowered when they are able to manage health issues without medication.
@@robertmarshall2502 Agree on it sounding very positive 🙂 BUT: it can also be very empowering to manage a health issue WITH medication. Especially when it is something chronic: you go from being anxious and scared and a patient subject to investigation to being a person who is an expert on their condition. Someone who manages the flaws in how their body works, and is an expert on this small particular niche. When you meet the right medical people it is incredibly empowering to check in with them.
@@Asptuber True but I think that is less often the case or less strong when dealing with mental health v physical health. Personally I think there's been a tendency to overprescribe and overpathologize when it comes to depression, ADHD etc. And I think there is a difficult line to tread between accepting who you are and where we start to treat. Having said all that, I think we'd probably be in agreement that each individual getting the right care for them and feeling that they are able to manage it is positive. It's nice just to hear ppl say, I've got this more or less under control, regardless.
@@robertmarshall2502I agree. I have "ADHD." Pills work in a pinch. I go through rounds. What I don't get is this assumption that people have access to Medicare! In Canada it's free, sure, but we get 15 minutes to talk about our problems....physicians have not kept up with global knowledge and have a huge bias to western medicine and worse hardly aware of any alternatives. So perhaps some people have that luxury to actually have a relationship with a physician that is inclusive and constructive. Anyway, luckily my mom gave me a really good book about how much diet effects ADHD. Later I discovered how much space and life processes have influence. It's a can of worms because society is often a huge factor but that is complex answer. I can't fathom how gender disphoria is not a social problem as oppose to a biological. I think of these people were less anxious and more accepted then the biological switch would be less. But the systemic exclusions is more cultural then social - which is a way different strategy... Anyways .
Great conversation! Stella's point about sexual repression dressed up in exhibitionists' clothing is a shrewd one, and something I've been considering in the context of fetishes as well. I knew it was true, but hearing that there is no recourse for patients experiencing "gender dysphoria" who do not want to medically alter their bodies is still so disheartening. I commend Sara for speaking out. Thank you.
1:08:37 her point about children who express disconnect with their genitals, very much can be symptomatic of sexual assault but also of having been exposed to sexually explicit, violent or degrading pornography at a very young age. Something children have increasingly been exposed to at ever earlier ages since the introduction of unlimited access to the internet into childrens lives and especially since children having broad access to cell phones.
Right on. Not all of these kids are going to liberal arts colleges with a robust gender theory program, but all of them have access to the internet and thus pornography!
I noticed that too. I was also disturbed about the way she bragged about being able to convince any parent to "trans" their children, that they trusted her more than their own children. It sounded like she was in this to serve her God complexed, ego sport. She's going damage control, or getting in front of the story in an effort to skirt the immense hammer that is going to come down on these ideologue footsoldiers. that's my hunch.
I went to nursing school at 17, with no life experience. I'd never been kissed. I didn't know how to drive. I'd never had a job. I lived with my parents who gave me a clothing allowance etc. My tutors had advanced degrees and 20 plus years' experience as nurses and I naturally believed that everything they said was true. And if I disagreed with them, we had a special word for that, it was called being wrong. It's a natural progression from believing your adult schoolteachers to believing your university lecturer/nursing tutor. It's only later on once you have become an adult and an experienced professional in your own right that you are in a position to start to question what they taught you, the parts that you notice contradict your own clinical experience. It's only then that you have the confidence to say, hang on, the evidence or theoretical basis for that claim is really weak (as opposed to just assuming that you are missing something or failing to understand). You have to practice for quite a while before you really have the clinical skills and wisdom to be able to critique your own profession and knowledge base in a way that really offers anything by that critique. I'd say about 10 years of practice in nursing. I have a friend who was told at medical school "50% of what we teach you is going to be proven wrong within your professional life time, and there is no possible way for you or I to know which 50%, so just bear that in mind." I think this would be a very helpful thing for people teaching health professionals to say more widely to their students.
I think this is baked into the medical system in general. There is very little emphasis on long term follow-up (even in cancer you very very rarely find anything that goes longer than 5 years). How most systems are set up also makes it so that it just gets too mentally taxing for the professionals if they go around wondering about what happened to their patients. The most extreme would be the ER, but almost EVERY field of medicine has it baked in that the time horizon is limited. (Palliative care is about the only one I can think of where it is not the case that either the patient or the professional is at some point shunted off somewhere else.)
A couple years ago, in a nearby school district, a teacher got reprimanded and suspended because she refused to use a trans-identifying student’s pronouns. She had tried compromising by calling the student “Miss (last name)” since the student was female. Happily, the teacher later won a lawsuit since using biologically incorrect pronouns and names violated her religious beliefs. It made me even happier that the court also required to district to change their policy that staff couldn’t share with parents that their child was trans-identifying without the child’s consent. It made me so happy that there are some places fighting back! I’m a former teacher and one of the reasons I left was that I felt like our policies regarding students’ health and safety often painted the parents as villains. Whenever gender and sexuality was brought up, people acted like it was a given that parents would disown and abuse their child for being gay or trans. In reality, very few parents would be so harsh, and involving parents is necessary.
As someone who is autistic, it’s really easy to think you are the “wrong gender”, and especially that you are nonbinary. It finally gives you an explanation for why you feel different to other people, and a way that you can fix that.
The debate/hearing In House Judiciary Committee around the dangers of affirming care (I believe earlier this week?) was hard to watch, and at such stark contrast following this excellent episode.
There is something deeply disturbing about the way Sara speaks about her pride in selling the parents on transition; and I do mean “selling.” There is a real “used car salesman” energy in that “winning” parents over bit of the conversation. She didn’t seem to get why Sasha was asking her follow-up question, later on. A person with such a personality would be better off in sales/marketing. Sara seems to struggle with empathy. Even adding a father KILLED HIMSELF over his kid’s transition in as an aside was even more shocking. Something is wrong here.
Her awe about the 2 year old with "real" gender problem is also disturbing. She has no idea what kids at that age are and I'm wondering how she could ever work with that age group. A kid that age will ask you where is their tail or their bunny ears, it's not that they should transition into that animal, they should be left to play freely and of course should hear an explanation about who has what kinds of body parts.
i worked for a major ca med ins co until very recently., there are an equal number or detransition requests and transition requests.... yes, 1:1 requests. NO detransition requests are approved, ever, for any reason.
Please make that public because the percentage that gets thrown around is only 1-3% off trans people detransition. I suppose it’s because we are using outdated data from when transitioning was a much more carefully evaluated process
@melifever I keep stating it. I'll do a video on my page, a short one, and I'll say it. I do not have the documentation to back it. I knew people who did and I heard and saw a lot.
Point at 39:00 - 40:20 The framing of the language used by distressed children filing out forms regarding b d s m as "sex positive" is yet another example of how the flipping of language itself and the inversion of known words definitions, to mean the opposite, continues to make discussions around these topics confusing. Great observation from Sasha about the serious phobias which many patients and professionals themselves who work in this area, have around their own sexed bodies. This is especially concerning when dealing with pre pubescent children and their parents.
Thank you both for helping keep me sane. Strange having to 'watch my language' when I was home in Ireland last year, and it wasn't my swearing. I live in Germany and am seeing now how quickly it has spread here. Self ID is next here and no-one is really talking about it.
Excellent conversation. Never heard that brilliant phrase before: "stops the sexual awakening" - it is ironic that in a society that prides itself on its sexual liberation is promoting an ideology that destroys a person's ability to explore their own sexuality and to reach orgasm. And in a society that promotes the idea that it is best to breast (chest!!) feed a baby, it seems extraordinary that we are now encouraging young women to cut off their breasts. One positive (at what terrible sacrifice) that is coming out of this, is the conversation around the wonders of the female body...the wonders of giving birth and of the sensory experience of breastfeeding. The latter having been a taboo subject.
20:00 someday I would REALLY hope Sasha and Stella would talk about this, female cross dressers have existed in periods of history and there are firsthand and second hand documents from those eras that speak of them. I am curious, why does little speak of cross dressing not exist but we have a ginormous about of FtMs? I wonder if our culture is truly that unaccepting of masculine women, despite many people in these types of comment sections crying how they’ve been lost to ideology. I also would like to see them talk more on the impact of video games and anime in this issue. This gets mentioned in the podcast a lot, but I would like to see this more in-depth. Thank you for all you’re guys’ hard work, compassion, and research. There are few platforms I trust to actually talk about these issues.
These are great topics! We touched on female drag and cross dressing in several episodes. You might like to check this one out: ruclips.net/video/AV-Oy0gFw34/видео.html
Wasn't this the person in Matt Walsh's movie claiming that schools were putting litterboxes in classrooms and being forced to meow to kids because they identified as cats? How can anyone take anything this person says seriously after that nonsense?
I heard another very useful turn of phrase from Stella, asking where this expert was at the time she asks "did you feel like there's something going on here" or "was it like the world's gone mad!"? I think that sums up the entire arch of anyone who enters into this gender discourse from any angle. That perfectly sums up my own intellectual journey through this. A few years ago i was like "there's something going on here" maybe starting with the pronoun controversy. Now im full on "the world's gone mad". The more you know...
Why would you trust a two year old any more than a 16 year old ROGD. They are both talking nonsense. The two year old had to wake up one day and start thinking this nonsense and no adult had set them straight. I'm sorry but this women hasn't totally broken the spell. The way she talks she still thinks there's some "genuine" trans children in there somewhere.
When my daughter was 4 or so, she saw her baby brother's genitalia while I was giving him a bath, and she asked me "when did mine fall off?" She assumed that all kids had a penis and then fell off because she hadn't seen other kids without underwear on at that age. It was a childish way she was trying to make sense of a difference. I explained that she never had one because boys and girls are different. Case closed. If she started to believe she was born "wrong" because she didn't have a penis, I wouod have continued reminding her that her body was a girl body and it was exactly how it was supposed to be. People who think 2 year olds have some sort of wisdom are crazy.
@@Essy311Yup, why are we pretending that it's not our responsibility to teach them!? A 2 year old will ask where is my tail while playing with the dog. These questions are normal as a way of understanding the world, but the answers from some adults are becoming an obstacle in that understanding.
She’s right, there is a certain subset of gay men who are doing it simply because they believe they’ll have a leg up (pun not intended) in dating hotter men. A very femme twink coworker of mine stated over and over again that he had a hard time with dating. Next thing I knew, it seemed like days later, he had a completely different face. I wanted to warn him that he would not find it easier to date afterwards, but it was too late, he had completely transformed his face. I was shocked that the doctors let him go ahead and make this terrible life altering decision based on such a shallow desire that everyone goes through.
I don't believe that gender surgery should be allowed in the US, let alone for minors. But, if it is going to continue to be a medical practice, then there needs to be restrictions. 1. Affirmation Therapy (as ridiculous as that is) should be completed by a Psychiatrist (MD/DO), Mental Health Nurse Practitioner or Mental Health Physician Assistant (Not a Psychologist, LMFT, Social Worker, counselor, Case Workers, etc.). It is extremely important to know the psychological side effects, contraindications and drug-drug interactions of as many medications as possible and most coursework for counselors does not include this - especially at the Masters level. (I say this with no disrespect to Licensed Counselors.) 2. There should be a minimum number of psychiatric counseling/evaluation hours (i.e. 1000) that the patient must be complete before they are eligible for surgery. 3. You must be at least 18 to be eligible for hormone therapy. To be eligible, you must complete minim hours of counseling/evaluation by a psychiatric medical provider before starting treatment 4. You must be at least 21 years of age to undergo surgery (and continued mental health counseling would be strongly recommended) Still, I have no idea how a medical professional can find is reasonable to "affirm" someone who is clearly suffering from mental health issues, especially a minor who has not reached the age of puberty. That being said, it is become more evidence that too much power is being given to Doctors with minimum research on the long term impacts surgery and hormone therapy has on a patient and for that, there needs to be more oversight.
"Gender expression" =personality. "Gender presentation" = fashion/hairstyle. Anyone who believes they are in the wrong body is psychologically unwell, and needs psychological help You cannot cure a mental illness with surgery.
You put way too much faith in psychiatrists and in medicine in general. Having worked in the medical field for a number of years I can tell you that some psychiatrists are a bit nutty and in fact some of the practitoners 'affirming' these people for 'transitioning' are psychiatrists. I think all of the so-called transitioning should be ended for all age groups as there is not enough good evidence to justify its use. And that some people say they find it helpful is not enough justification esp. if insurance or the gov't is paying for these very expensive medical interventions. And a long-term follow-up study showed that the suicide rate was 19x higher post-transition when matched w/ population controls.
1000 hours of counselling/evaluation is 20 years of weekly therapy. Do you perhaps want to rethink that? It doesn't take anything like 20 years of therapy to realize that a patient isn't a good candidate for therapy, and very few people get significantly more out of 20 years of weekly therapy than they would out of 10 or 5 years. Also, while I agree that we need to return to a system of tight professional gatekeeping, I totally disagree that you need a physical health qualification (psychiatrist or advanced nursing as opposed to clinical psychology for eg). What is required is to assess whether or not someone is capable of using therapy to either alleviate their gender distress or learn to cope with it more constructively, that is the necessary assessment re a therapy/insight orientated pathway vs an "affirmative"/surgical pathway, not an Indepth knowledge of drug interactions and the endocrine system. The endocrinologist which you would theoretically refer the patient to at the end of your (way less than 1000 hour) assessment is the person who needs to have that Indepth knowledge. I say all this as a registered nurse with advanced training as a psychodynamic psychotherapist who had nearly 20 years of weekly therapy (which was helpful to me) BTW.
@@lilith3953 the 1000 was an arbitrary number but your point has been made and you’re correct. A more reasonable figured could have been suggested. So let’s say 150-250. My point is continuation of counseling should be required beyond 1 appointment up to (and beyond) surgery and I say this given the number of patients who regrets surgery years after or who cite the lack of patient education during that process. Regarding the psychology, the current system is far too lenient and it’s is mostly used as means to “check the box” for surgery approval and not in-depth mental health assessment/counseling. Certainly an endocrinologist will (should) discuss the side affects of hormone therapy which is often the physical. I’m not suggesting it’s the job of the therapist to do the job of the endocrinologist regarding medication. I’m suggesting that the therapist should be able to assess hormonal Therapy impact on the patients psychology during treatment. That being said, none of this would make a difference if the patient providers aren’t collaborating with one another on the progress, physical and mentally, of the patient. It seems to me that these are often independent of each other, or at the very least, mental health is not tested as being highly regarded as it should be. Sarah’s recommending one of her patients not undergoing surgery, would have stopped any further action of the patient continuing.
When I saw the thumbnail I thought they were interviewing Kristen Beck the retired Navy SEAL who transitioned back in 2013. Turns out she/they detransitioned last year and is now Chris Beck once more.
My therapists have never asked about sexual behavior and sexual trauma, although I am autistic and have struggled mightily with both for many years. Doctors are even more squeamish. I have not felt well-served despite spending a fortune on therapy. Even autism was overlooked. I am shy and always yearned for a healthy sex life but was too disconnected from my body to have that. Then SSRIs made me truly impotent and even more upset, because I was told it did not matter or was not true that I had suffered medication damage. I feel mutilated, sexless, even without any transition efforts. (I see this often in autistic persons, nothing sexy about them.) No one ever checks on results of therapy and that hurts!
I can't help feeling that Sara's work has done serious, irreparable harm to her young patients, particularly by coercing parents into it, thus removing the last safeguards for that child. She walked away when people trusted her, but they were already on a harmful path. I appreciate that she has changed her thinking. But the fact that 8 YEARS later she still hasn't followed up with those patients or parents to see how they're doing now to see if she can help any who might be suffering as a result of her previous advocacy is putting her head in the sand and avoiding responsibility. Just look at her body language when Sasha asked about follow ups (51:10 - 52:40). She seems cowardly at best, crass at worst. And she only publicly spoke out when it threatened her own children. Colossal hypocrisy! (Also, I really struggle with her continually using the terms "becoming female" and "becoming male"... NO ONE CAN CHANGE SEX. Her using this language perpetuates the lie of gender ideology and will only harm more people.)
This was very interesting in how Sara's experience illuminate how radical, and how _quick_ the shift has been. I have been taking a casual interest in trans-stuff since the early 90ies. Back then it was easy to side with the "trans-lobby", because most of what was written was very pathologising in a way that sort of missed the point: there was still lots of unsavoury anti-gay sentiment popping up all over the place, a weird emphasis on 50 years out-of-date gender stereotypes, comorbidities were jumped on like they held the key to everything. There was NO, I repeat NO, really good outcomes described or theorised except conforming. (Psychiatry in general suffered from this, William Styron's Darkness Visible was only published in 1990, the psychiatric patient was not a subject with a voice.) Today it is hard to understand the demonisation of Blanchard et al, but back in the day it all made sense. There were probably very good clinicians that helped individual transpeople, but public discussion was all "look at the freaks if you dare, this is so tragic" (and the same in medical-speak). This is also (I believe) how the T got adopted by the LGB: they were so few, and it was in very living memory that gays were also talked about in this same language of pathology, this same hunting for a traumatic cause, etc. Another reason that made it easy to side with the "trans lobby" was that it was actually very very hard to get any medical help in transition. Not to mention legal paperwork. Many countries had NO legal route for changing your gender. It seemed unfair, un-necessarily cruel. I don't think anyone 20 or 30 years ago could imagine what has happened. It was so self-evident that embarking on transition was really, really hard unless you were really lucky in your physical attributes. Why would anyone even think of doing it unless they had to? (In that sense it did feel a bit like being gay, why would anyone choose this??!) It is very hard for me to pinpoint where this really went off the rails. It probably is the queer-theory, and the postmodern dislike of physical reality. For a long time I was wondering how PoMo feminism could live together with trans activism, since they seemed to be so fundamentally opposed in how they viewed sex and gender. The glue seems to have been the utterly ridiculous idea of self-ID. Self-ID smashes the old-school transsexual view, and opens the door for the whole activist field being dominated by what Douglas Murray calls "look at me!" people. And we want to be kind (because transpeople suffered so much), so no one wants to call these nutjobs nutjobs. Because we don't want to kill Brandon Teena we stay silent when silly men dress up demand pronouns. But why didn't more people react when the epidemic of younger trans-identifying people started? (Exactly when this was would be interesting to know, I think it might have been as early as 2010 or so.) Especially when the sex-distribution shifted? I remember thinking back in 2010-15 that it was nice that we were seeing transmen a bit more (the ones I'd known in the 90ies were very private and low profile). Being older (and a bit spectrum-y) I didn't at all think about the potential for harm to teenage girls.
Insightful comment. The bit you say “It probably is the queer-theory, and the postmodern dislike of physical reality.” is very critical. Between academic cerebral trickledown and obsession with technology and social media (both false constructs imo), both common sense and critical thinking have been utterly banished. There are ways to help gender dysphoric and thanks people. But what we are seeing now and hearing from Ms. Stockton is fundamentally not it.
Yes! The older system was oppressive (I so appreciate your raising this!) but by the 90s the gate-keeping was more anti-sexist and anti-homophobic and seemed to work well (as this guest describes so well). I don't think the shift was due to actual pomo theory though. Both trans activists and gender critical feminists seem to be misunderstanding the vast majority of postmodern/feminist theory and focus only on the tangled arguments of Judith Butler. The new trans ideology has shifted essentialism from biology to psychology and the concept of gender from a social construct to an individual feeling. It posits identity as an innate individual psychological fact rather than a process of identity formation within biological and social realities. Feminism was right to be suspicious of biological essentialism (used to "prove" that women are weaker, less intelligent, etc. than men) and definitions (if strength is defined as force then generally women are weaker but if it is defined by endurance than women are stronger) and to strategically assert the concept of gender (as a social construct) as distinct from biological sex. This exposed how gender roles and performances were not innate but a result of ideology and socialization, freeing both men and women from the constrictions of enforced femininity and masculinity. The new trans ideology actually re-attaches gendered social performances to biology, conflating sex and gender, and is regressive and anti-feminist.
@@prof.jezebel Thank you, well put! Especially this: "The new trans ideology has shifted essentialism from biology to psychology and the concept of gender from a social construct to an individual feeling. " (I think this can actually be applied to most "wokery", the toxic misunderstanding / misapplication comes exactly from this conflation of _proposed descriptions_ of social mechanisms with _individual feelings_. )
OMG wikipedia says that Stella is opposed to transgender rights ! 😢 That is a lie . Is anyone out there knowledgeable about wikipedia who could change that ? Thanks
Apparently this is not easy. Kelly Jay Keen's page is also pretty scurrilous. If it were possible I feel one of her followers would have had a crack at it.
A much needed counterpoint to the assumption laden, research poor, life altering, medically devastating gender theory in its' current embodiment. Human Beings need much more focused attention on truly accepting each other and ourselves as who we are, as we are.
Where is this 'gender non conforming girls' are often lesbians coming from? Most girls are not gender conforming, so much so that the concept of gender conforming has been dead in the water since the 80s. It is different for men, who often are either gay or straight who discover a certain type of short films that we probably cannot mention.
@36:00 er so. I think a huge problem with all professions is this disconnect from actuality. Perhaps we grow too fast. Hard to find any analysis of our waste - few go there! But its real truth and shit doesnt lie! Haha. Anyway, we are informed with lots of data but humans are quite diwconnected from the knowledge circuits we are actually a part of. I think there is a metaphysical connection to gender and how we repress the feminine. So like the yin of yinyang, chaos, etc. Even academics often use chaos as disorder - it is not! Chaos is all inclusive and unconditional and can certainly be disorientating and yes sometimes disorder. But most certainly not the totality... Anyway i think an example of how we don't approach reality on realities terms. And many women (sex) are part of the repression too, not just penis people 😂
It sounds like she got into what she thought was an interesting area where she could do good research, and found out that the LAST thing that world wants to be subjected to is actual research.
I'll never understand how individuals can attain advanced degrees, all the while bending the knee to authority and "experts". I swear, despite possessing liberal arts educations and backgrounds, it is impossible for most individuals to exercise a Liberal thought process. I find most of those who perceive themself as Liberal, aren't. 🐿
It's almost impossible to attain an advance degree WITHOUT bending a knee to authority and "experts". Try handing in a paper criticizing your lecturers' favorite theorist or theory and see where that gets you. Not a good grade, no matter the caliber of your work, I can assure you.
@@lilith3953 Fair enough. I get it. However, why would those papers shape someone's character. Far left ideology doesn't pass modicum of scrutiny. It's as if they never play out the illogic in their minds and arrive a the catastrophic conclusions. Clearly they can't think. Or won't. Idunno. 🐿
My doctor views the whole trans 'thing' as something for the 'gender specialists' to deal with. Intellectuals with high trait conscientiousness and extroversion are selected for by the highly dogmatic discipline of science. The scientific method actually disuades people with high trait Openess and low trait Agreeableness. Science is applied skepticism for those who aren't comfortable asserting a dog is not a cat.
No question that when treating children for gender dysphoria there is a lot a therapist needs to consider in helping the child and parents decide if puberty blockers are a good idea. This does not mean they should be ruled out so that the child goes through a puberty that may negatively affect the rest of their lives. Personally, I believe if a child has symptoms of gender dysphoria and/or identifies as the gender different from their birth gender, most therapists understand the seriousness of this and take great caution in helping families make the right choices. If you are consulting a therapist who does not do this, get a better one. As far as the discussion in the video is concerned, Ms. Stockton said she has had very little follow up with patients. My understanding is, yes many children decide they are not trans after all and do not fully transition. However, there also is a fair percentage for which transition is the right choice. Ms. Stockton admits she does not have data from her practice to assess if transitioners are happy with their transitions. From what I know about the research, there are few transitioners who regret their decision to transition despite a heavy focus on individual detransitioners in the media. This may be more the case with adult transitioners, though I think even the vast majority of people who transition at a young age do not have regrets.
The question of regrets is interesting. Dessistance literature indicates that 60 to 90% of childhood-onset cases will reconcile with their birth sex. This is why we feel puberty blockade is such a dangerous decision in which parents and physicians are taking a guess and setting up the child for medical complications and medical dependency for the rest of their lives
But, what if the cases that reconciling with their birth sex are accurate. Those kids made the right decision not to transition. The other 10 - 40% may be accurate too in choosing transition. They then lead better lives. Of course mistakes are made in any kind of medical and psychological treatment. Personally, I think with proper training the mistakes in gender treatment are no different than in most other treatments considered successful.@@widerlenspod
Well that’s the problem. You may think whatever you like but without sufficient data, there’s no way to prove whether what you think is actually founded. All I know is I’m seeing videos from detransitioners multiply and they testify to a pushy ideology/medical approach. The AAP literally has only one single approach to address gender dysphoria. Name one single other condition where they only give a single option for treatment. There’s a lot more to say but let’s start there
I’m so sad to learn that someone took their life over this nonsense, but it isn’t surprising. Imagine the guilt the child will feel if and when they desist.
Very interesting thank you. There are loads of detransitioner videos now but what I think is even more interesting now is that we are seeing videos of transwomen who are saying they don't regret transitioning but they do regret the "bottom surgery" ie. castration. To my mind there is a slight paradox there. I know the surgery is brutal with quite often poor results and complications but even so, there is nothing that screams 'male' louder than a p*ni$.
And now we've got the "gender minotaur" where you are both. Analysis of the use of a mythological figure from Crete which in antiquity, children were literally sacrificed to~
If you enjoyed this episode please remember to like and subscribe! Also visit our Substack here www.widerlenspod.com/ and sign up for a Paid Subscription for Bonus Content with Sara Stockton and other guests. It is the best way to support this show. Thank you so much!
I think what I initially struggled with as a new clinician was getting a grasp of the shifting landscape in regards to trans identifying patients within mental health.
I graduated in 2016 as the philosophy regarding 'old school transexualism' was probably in its final death knell though I didn't realize it at the time.
Affirmation was the de facto treatment for dysphoric kids at the adolescent program I worked for. Every professional resource and training I turned to to better understand our program's spike in teen girls identifying as trans, led to more ideologically driven materials who were less than curious about this phenomenon and in fact implied that it was phobic to even ask.
Finding "A wider lens" was a breath of fresh air after years of professional gaslighting.
I have since moved on from working with minors but I find that some of the most difficult conversations I've had with people since is getting them to understand the paradigm shift. They still think there are extensive gatekeeping measures with long waiting periods and comprehensive assessments that miraculously determine with absolute accuracy which dysphoric kids will grow up to be trans identifying adults.
In reality a lot has changed thanks to so many of our institutions jumping into bed with the activist groups. As it stands any warm body who graduated from a mental health program can declare themselves to be a 'gender expert' and can guide a child down the pathway of medicalization. Or as your guest said, clients can completely bypass what little safeguards remain and buy their hormones online. What a mess...
Thanks for describing your experience here as a fellow clinician and thanks for the encouraging words about our program!
The fact that there are so few subscribers, much less views, tells me this podcast is being suppressed by the algorithm to the extreme. I challenge those of us who follow Genspect, Stella and Sasha, etc. to please share this with one person, one clinician- anyone who could take time to listen to this very necessary information. Until more people who identify as progressive and liberal start saying, “ I’ve learned more and I was wrong.” this will never change.
And always like, comment and respond to comments. The algorithm loves noise.
My fall semester begins on 14 August, and I will be sharing this with my professors. I’m in the health sciences program, human services in particular. I’ve been too scared to bring up my concerns until now, even though I’m very outspoken about it on twitter.
@@dewilew2137 That's very brave and can have a great impact. If you remember, please share how it went.
I mean transphobic Christian channels do well with millions of subs, this is will be there too soon.
I tried sharing their interview with Scarlet with my best friend of seven years and he wouldn't watch because first he googled Genspect and found out that they've been labeled as transphobic. He wouldn't watch interviews of other detransitioners, either, giving various excuses including that the interviewer had the wrong politics. He stopped speaking to me a few weeks later. I haven't heard from him in weeks and we used to communicate on a daily basis. The last few Signal texts I sent to him have remained unread.
I love the approach of Sasha and Stella to ppl who started out with one belief or opinion and changed their position over time and given more information and more experience.
It gives me a lot of hope that more ppl will be brave enough to speak up without being treated as war criminals
Yes and yet she should at one point take the step and try to follow up with her patients from more than ten years ago.
@@dreimalnein22She's moved away from the field now though? From a purely practical position I doubt she'd have access to patient records in order to do that
@@robertmarshall2502 i thought so too but finding people online in social networks isn't hard if you just remember their name; plus Sara's reach just to ask publicly isn't small.
@@dreimalnein22 I'm trying to put myself in her shoes and I think it's a very complicated one. Firstly I don't know what the ethics of contacting someone you worked with as a patient in the past are unless you're doing some kind of research paper.
I've also thought this before when talking to ppl online caught up in this and who've already had medical intervention that can't be reversed. I sometimes just avoid certain discussions that affect that person personally because there seems to be no upside. Would it be "kinder" to let them imagine they made the right choice when the damage is done? And I get the impression she isn't completely against transition anyway. Is it likely that she'll only get responses from those who are happy? Or more likely to just get the angry responses or lawsuits?
Would it help them if she went back and said I think we were wrong or do more harm?
They mentioned the Tavistock workers who resigned and I can really see why for their own mental health they might just wish to close that chapter and never look back. I genuinely can't unpick what is morally the right move other than what she's already done in terms of raising the alarm about her concerns.
@@robertmarshall2502 right right. It's just hard whenever someone in the position she was in is asked, like also Dr Zucker was asked by detransitioners in Killarney - and they must reply they have no clue. They never established followup relationships within their institution. Wanted this way by the transitioners themselves.
The bright star regarding this aspect is Az Hakeem, with his mixed up (soon to be trans + trans regret) group therapy setting 20 years ago.
But its great where they are at.
All of them just want to help and be professional within their concept of the topic.
I've been aware of using the term " dead name " for over 30 years, but with older adults. Hearing parents say " dead naming my child" in elementary schools is pure insanity.
It's insane across the board at any age, period
Yes, that particular thing surprised me, that Sara didn't know/didn't use that terminology as late as 2010-2015. (Well not that she didn't use it, I think it would be counterproductive for a therapist to use such a negative label.)
I don't know when I first came across that term: I had a bout of being interested in trans-issues pre-internet (or actually, to be precise, when the Internet was not an everyday thing, so ca 1990-95 or so), and then it came on my radar again in maybe 2008-2010, and then of course the modern onslaught from around 2014.
I might have encountered it back in the 1990ies, but not sure. Probably. Then it was in a context of adults, and I always found it a bit histrionic, though understandable°. Like people commiserating about parents or relatives still not accepting their new name and gender-role 10+ years into transition.
°Understandable in the sense that it encapsulates the grief and anger about family not (fully, not yet) accepting the transitioned person's new reality. As a sort of venting code word. And sometimes it was also used when describing (what was felt as) particularly egregious, malicious, public denial of someone's transreality.
But as Sara well describes in this interview, the world back then was VERY different for transpeople. (I think I need to write a longer comment just about this.)
@@weltschmerski Yes, there's something really disgusting, disrespectful, contemptous, discarding & rebellious all rolled into one in that description of one's 'birth name'.
If that isn't the epitomy of hating and killing a major aspect of one's identity AND it's huge significance and ties to the relationship with one's parent/s who gave the birth name, 99.999% with love, I don't know what is!
@@NickyM_0all part of the build back better craze, I guess.
I know a trans circle that abhors that, instead... They call it their government name. Which is kind of funny. Also means they can still use it.
Here in the UK and having a mind of my own - I don’t mind where I get the ‘correct’ information. We have the well-established and revered BBC who don’t talk about this matter in a balanced manner so I look for my knowledge wherever I can get it. Ladies -carry on talking wherever and with whoever you need to to get this important message and knowledge out there. Thank you..
Glad I'm not the only one that feels uncomfortable with some of the sources I end up watching/reading to get any information on the subject, particularly in the UK.
Can't remember the last time I watched the beeb for anything. Grew up trusting them and believing what they presented was the truth, how far they've fallen.
We are very uncomfortable with the guilt-by-association game. We are open to discussing these issues in an honest way with a variety of people from different perspectives and backgrounds.
Me too, I agree with what you’ve said. I haven’t watched BBC for a long time as they are totally biased!
Thank you for this incredibly informative interview. I appreciated Sara's interview in What is a Woman. She's articulate, intelligent and very compassionate. The look of absolute shock on Sasha and Stella's faces that a father committed suicide after the court overruled his authority reflected my own shock at that sad news. @46:00 What's been done to our kids is a crime against humanity.
Yes we were so distressed to hear that! Thanks for your comment
@@widerlenspod there are children, spouses and parents who have experienced such extreme distress after a family member underwent "transition" and have been either ignored or disparaged for not supporting the transition that they have taken their own lives.
This is a serious travesty.
In one family where a father transitioned, both the fathers son and ex wife ended their lives shortly after and finally so did the father about 7yrs post transition, leaving behind another child and extended family in greif and confusion without any form of meaningful support.
@@Gingerblaze It's truly tragic. And the added tragedy is no-one is being held accountable and America is still peddling the 'gender affirming care' narrative. It makes me sick to my stomach and actually anxious mentally. People don't realise how this is affecting the mental health of wider society, literally fighting to hold on to reality and the heavy assualt on language.
Well said.
Wonderful conversation. Thank you.
I loved Sara’s talk with Jordan Peterson. It’s really a Birds Eye view into the mindset of those docs who were on the front lines. It’s really very powerful to hear her rebuke the steps that we’re taken. Her voice should be one of the first to be given higher platform. People really need to hear what she has to say. Another great interview, ladies❤️
She isn't a Dr.
@@metorphoric oh thanks I’ll fix that
This was such a great, insightful discussion. This guest was the consummate professional in her field. She observed so much, cared about her clients on all levels ie from a human and experimental perspective. She shed so much light in this discussion with the comparison between then and now, in professional approach, changing client demographics and language.
Really? A "consumate proffesional" she was a brainwashed ideologue that took 10yrs to realise she was hurting children.
The thought never crossed her mind that blocking a child's puberty was WRONG. SMH
You ladies are just the best. You are keeping me sane. I wish I could show this video to every parent, educator, therapist and ideologue cheering on this medical scandal.
I imagine some of these clinicians will face guilt when their patients go on to live miserable lives due to these mistakes and unfortunately rhere will be many who dont care. This was very insightful.
Like Helen Joyce stated about the parents who have allowed this to happen to their children, the true believers, many will psychologically need to stay indoctrinated to live with themselves. It’s a CULT.
Many do not care about the moral implications because they have bills to pay. Some will have a sense of superiority that wants the "affected" to suffer.
Sad
Brilliant chat ladies and great choice of guest, Sara is so brave for speaking out. I know there is still such a fight to be had but people like Sara and the guy you had on from the school (also a fabulous episode…they all are, thank u!) will be catalysts to others speaking out and the general societal feeling/outlook will gradually change. You’re chipping away at it one interview at a time and I thank you every day for what you’re doing xH
Thanks for watching!
@@widerlenspod never missed one, it’s fascinating xH
This was a particularly brilliant episode.
thank you!
Wonderful episode with a wonderful guest. Thank you to all three of you lovely ladies!
Thanks for watching!
3:22 i think you should establish followup episodes > you had the same thoughts after the conversation with Anne Lawrence.
thank you, we're going to be following up on this with a special reflective episode soon
I have SO. MUCH. RESPECT. for Sara Stockton. There are so many clinicians who agree, but are scared to speak out (or are addicted to the money).
1:11:09 that’s something I still think about for me. I wonder if I am repressing being trans, but I take a different approach. I see myself as I am able to mange any gender dysphoria I have without the need to medically transition or live as the opposite sex.
I think that's pretty normal.
I don't know what you think but that second sentence sounds very positive to me. In a different but similar context I know ppl who feel very empowered when they are able to manage health issues without medication.
@@robertmarshall2502 Agree on it sounding very positive 🙂
BUT: it can also be very empowering to manage a health issue WITH medication.
Especially when it is something chronic: you go from being anxious and scared and a patient subject to investigation to being a person who is an expert on their condition. Someone who manages the flaws in how their body works, and is an expert on this small particular niche. When you meet the right medical people it is incredibly empowering to check in with them.
@@Asptuber True but I think that is less often the case or less strong when dealing with mental health v physical health.
Personally I think there's been a tendency to overprescribe and overpathologize when it comes to depression, ADHD etc. And I think there is a difficult line to tread between accepting who you are and where we start to treat.
Having said all that, I think we'd probably be in agreement that each individual getting the right care for them and feeling that they are able to manage it is positive. It's nice just to hear ppl say, I've got this more or less under control, regardless.
@@robertmarshall2502I agree. I have "ADHD." Pills work in a pinch. I go through rounds. What I don't get is this assumption that people have access to Medicare! In Canada it's free, sure, but we get 15 minutes to talk about our problems....physicians have not kept up with global knowledge and have a huge bias to western medicine and worse hardly aware of any alternatives. So perhaps some people have that luxury to actually have a relationship with a physician that is inclusive and constructive.
Anyway, luckily my mom gave me a really good book about how much diet effects ADHD. Later I discovered how much space and life processes have influence.
It's a can of worms because society is often a huge factor but that is complex answer.
I can't fathom how gender disphoria is not a social problem as oppose to a biological. I think of these people were less anxious and more accepted then the biological switch would be less. But the systemic exclusions is more cultural then social - which is a way different strategy... Anyways .
Great conversation! Stella's point about sexual repression dressed up in exhibitionists' clothing is a shrewd one, and something I've been considering in the context of fetishes as well.
I knew it was true, but hearing that there is no recourse for patients experiencing "gender dysphoria" who do not want to medically alter their bodies is still so disheartening. I commend Sara for speaking out. Thank you.
Thanks for watching and commenting
1:08:37 her point about children who express disconnect with their genitals, very much can be symptomatic of sexual assault but also of having been exposed to sexually explicit, violent or degrading pornography at a very young age. Something children have increasingly been exposed to at ever earlier ages since the introduction of unlimited access to the internet into childrens lives and especially since children having broad access to cell phones.
I actually think this has way more to do with what is happening than queer theory!
Right on. Not all of these kids are going to liberal arts colleges with a robust gender theory program, but all of them have access to the internet and thus pornography!
@@prof.jezebel What do you think kweer education is pushing for exposure to?
Sara,
Thank you for speaking so bravely about this
Glad you enjoyed our convo w Sara
She seems very incurious to me. Once they’re done, they’re done. No follow up - short term or long term.
I noticed that too. I was also disturbed about the way she bragged about being able to convince any parent to "trans" their children, that they trusted her more than their own children. It sounded like she was in this to serve her God complexed, ego sport.
She's going damage control, or getting in front of the story in an effort to skirt the immense hammer that is going to come down on these ideologue footsoldiers. that's my hunch.
I went to nursing school at 17, with no life experience. I'd never been kissed. I didn't know how to drive. I'd never had a job. I lived with my parents who gave me a clothing allowance etc. My tutors had advanced degrees and 20 plus years' experience as nurses and I naturally believed that everything they said was true. And if I disagreed with them, we had a special word for that, it was called being wrong. It's a natural progression from believing your adult schoolteachers to believing your university lecturer/nursing tutor. It's only later on once you have become an adult and an experienced professional in your own right that you are in a position to start to question what they taught you, the parts that you notice contradict your own clinical experience. It's only then that you have the confidence to say, hang on, the evidence or theoretical basis for that claim is really weak (as opposed to just assuming that you are missing something or failing to understand). You have to practice for quite a while before you really have the clinical skills and wisdom to be able to critique your own profession and knowledge base in a way that really offers anything by that critique. I'd say about 10 years of practice in nursing.
I have a friend who was told at medical school "50% of what we teach you is going to be proven wrong within your professional life time, and there is no possible way for you or I to know which 50%, so just bear that in mind." I think this would be a very helpful thing for people teaching health professionals to say more widely to their students.
I think this is baked into the medical system in general. There is very little emphasis on long term follow-up (even in cancer you very very rarely find anything that goes longer than 5 years).
How most systems are set up also makes it so that it just gets too mentally taxing for the professionals if they go around wondering about what happened to their patients. The most extreme would be the ER, but almost EVERY field of medicine has it baked in that the time horizon is limited. (Palliative care is about the only one I can think of where it is not the case that either the patient or the professional is at some point shunted off somewhere else.)
@@weltschmerskiYes, I was very disturbed by those comments as well. I wouldn’t be ‘bragging’ about such things if I were her.😔
Great talk. Thank you, Sara, for speaking
A couple years ago, in a nearby school district, a teacher got reprimanded and suspended because she refused to use a trans-identifying student’s pronouns. She had tried compromising by calling the student “Miss (last name)” since the student was female. Happily, the teacher later won a lawsuit since using biologically incorrect pronouns and names violated her religious beliefs. It made me even happier that the court also required to district to change their policy that staff couldn’t share with parents that their child was trans-identifying without the child’s consent. It made me so happy that there are some places fighting back!
I’m a former teacher and one of the reasons I left was that I felt like our policies regarding students’ health and safety often painted the parents as villains. Whenever gender and sexuality was brought up, people acted like it was a given that parents would disown and abuse their child for being gay or trans. In reality, very few parents would be so harsh, and involving parents is necessary.
As someone who is autistic, it’s really easy to think you are the “wrong gender”, and especially that you are nonbinary.
It finally gives you an explanation for why you feel different to other people, and a way that you can fix that.
Alleviate some of the symptoms of puberty.
Absolutely mind blowing.🤦🏼♂️
The debate/hearing In House Judiciary Committee around the dangers of affirming care (I believe earlier this week?) was hard to watch, and at such stark contrast following this excellent episode.
We're glad you liked our discussion - thanks for your comment
There is something deeply disturbing about the way Sara speaks about her pride in selling the parents on transition; and I do mean “selling.” There is a real “used car salesman” energy in that “winning” parents over bit of the conversation. She didn’t seem to get why Sasha was asking her follow-up question, later on. A person with such a personality would be better off in sales/marketing. Sara seems to struggle with empathy. Even adding a father KILLED HIMSELF over his kid’s transition in as an aside was even more shocking. Something is wrong here.
Her awe about the 2 year old with "real" gender problem is also disturbing. She has no idea what kids at that age are and I'm wondering how she could ever work with that age group. A kid that age will ask you where is their tail or their bunny ears, it's not that they should transition into that animal, they should be left to play freely and of course should hear an explanation about who has what kinds of body parts.
finally I find some real information! It was hard to find you but finally I did it. Thank you!
i worked for a major ca med ins co until very recently., there are an equal number or detransition requests and transition requests.... yes, 1:1 requests. NO detransition requests are approved, ever, for any reason.
Please make that public because the percentage that gets thrown around is only 1-3% off trans people detransition. I suppose it’s because we are using outdated data from when transitioning was a much more carefully evaluated process
@melifever I keep stating it. I'll do a video on my page, a short one, and I'll say it. I do not have the documentation to back it. I knew people who did and I heard and saw a lot.
Point at 39:00 - 40:20 The framing of the language used by distressed children filing out forms regarding b d s m as "sex positive" is yet another example of how the flipping of language itself and the inversion of known words definitions, to mean the opposite, continues to make discussions around these topics confusing.
Great observation from Sasha about the serious phobias which many patients and professionals themselves who work in this area, have around their own sexed bodies.
This is especially concerning when dealing with pre pubescent children and their parents.
Great conversation.
The concept of "deadnaming" was mentioned at my place of work within their mandatory sex harassment training just a few days ago.
Thank you both for helping keep me sane. Strange having to 'watch my language' when I was home in Ireland last year, and it wasn't my swearing. I live in Germany and am seeing now how quickly it has spread here. Self ID is next here and no-one is really talking about it.
Thank you 👍🏻
Thanks for your comment
Its like saying bottom surgery and not penis castratrion
Excellent conversation. Never heard that brilliant phrase before: "stops the sexual awakening" - it is ironic that in a society that prides itself on its sexual liberation is promoting an ideology that destroys a person's ability to explore their own sexuality and to reach orgasm. And in a society that promotes the idea that it is best to breast (chest!!) feed a baby, it seems extraordinary that we are now encouraging young women to cut off their breasts. One positive (at what terrible sacrifice) that is coming out of this, is the conversation around the wonders of the female body...the wonders of giving birth and of the sensory experience of breastfeeding. The latter having been a taboo subject.
Thanks Debbie. We appreciate you taking the time to listen and comment!
I thought that was a brilliant point too, and so overlooked. Transitioning is discussed by the likes of the BBC in the manner of changing hair colour
Thank you for your work 💛
20:00 someday I would REALLY hope Sasha and Stella would talk about this, female cross dressers have existed in periods of history and there are firsthand and second hand documents from those eras that speak of them. I am curious, why does little speak of cross dressing not exist but we have a ginormous about of FtMs? I wonder if our culture is truly that unaccepting of masculine women, despite many people in these types of comment sections crying how they’ve been lost to ideology.
I also would like to see them talk more on the impact of video games and anime in this issue. This gets mentioned in the podcast a lot, but I would like to see this more in-depth. Thank you for all you’re guys’ hard work, compassion, and research. There are few platforms I trust to actually talk about these issues.
These are great topics! We touched on female drag and cross dressing in several episodes. You might like to check this one out: ruclips.net/video/AV-Oy0gFw34/видео.html
And thanks so much for watching and for your kind words!
Wasn't this the person in Matt Walsh's movie claiming that schools were putting litterboxes in classrooms and being forced to meow to kids because they identified as cats? How can anyone take anything this person says seriously after that nonsense?
Do you have evidence that that wasn't happening?
@@lilith3953 yes, we know it was made up.
@@lilith3953 Do you have any evidence it was? No, you don't. It didn't happen.
I heard another very useful turn of phrase from Stella, asking where this expert was at the time she asks "did you feel like there's something going on here" or "was it like the world's gone mad!"? I think that sums up the entire arch of anyone who enters into this gender discourse from any angle. That perfectly sums up my own intellectual journey through this. A few years ago i was like "there's something going on here" maybe starting with the pronoun controversy. Now im full on "the world's gone mad".
The more you know...
Thanks for watching
This channel is just....amazingly well done...inst-sub
23:30 I found this really, really chilling. It makes my hair stand on end.
Thanks for watching. Yes, that was a very intense moment
Why would you trust a two year old any more than a 16 year old ROGD. They are both talking nonsense. The two year old had to wake up one day and start thinking this nonsense and no adult had set them straight. I'm sorry but this women hasn't totally broken the spell. The way she talks she still thinks there's some "genuine" trans children in there somewhere.
Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts
That 2 year old was obviously very precocious and not in a good way. It makes me wonder what was really going on in that home.
When my daughter was 4 or so, she saw her baby brother's genitalia while I was giving him a bath, and she asked me "when did mine fall off?" She assumed that all kids had a penis and then fell off because she hadn't seen other kids without underwear on at that age. It was a childish way she was trying to make sense of a difference. I explained that she never had one because boys and girls are different. Case closed. If she started to believe she was born "wrong" because she didn't have a penis, I wouod have continued reminding her that her body was a girl body and it was exactly how it was supposed to be. People who think 2 year olds have some sort of wisdom are crazy.
@@Essy311Yup, why are we pretending that it's not our responsibility to teach them!? A 2 year old will ask where is my tail while playing with the dog. These questions are normal as a way of understanding the world, but the answers from some adults are becoming an obstacle in that understanding.
She’s right, there is a certain subset of gay men who are doing it simply because they believe they’ll have a leg up (pun not intended) in dating hotter men. A very femme twink coworker of mine stated over and over again that he had a hard time with dating. Next thing I knew, it seemed like days later, he had a completely different face. I wanted to warn him that he would not find it easier to date afterwards, but it was too late, he had completely transformed his face. I was shocked that the doctors let him go ahead and make this terrible life altering decision based on such a shallow desire that everyone goes through.
I don't believe that gender surgery should be allowed in the US, let alone for minors. But, if it is going to continue to be a medical practice, then there needs to be restrictions.
1. Affirmation Therapy (as ridiculous as that is) should be completed by a Psychiatrist (MD/DO), Mental Health Nurse Practitioner or Mental Health Physician Assistant (Not a Psychologist, LMFT, Social Worker, counselor, Case Workers, etc.). It is extremely important to know the psychological side effects, contraindications and drug-drug interactions of as many medications as possible and most coursework for counselors does not include this - especially at the Masters level. (I say this with no disrespect to Licensed Counselors.)
2. There should be a minimum number of psychiatric counseling/evaluation hours (i.e. 1000) that the patient must be complete before they are eligible for surgery.
3. You must be at least 18 to be eligible for hormone therapy. To be eligible, you must complete minim hours of counseling/evaluation by a psychiatric medical provider before starting treatment
4. You must be at least 21 years of age to undergo surgery (and continued mental health counseling would be strongly recommended)
Still, I have no idea how a medical professional can find is reasonable to "affirm" someone who is clearly suffering from mental health issues, especially a minor who has not reached the age of puberty. That being said, it is become more evidence that too much power is being given to Doctors with minimum research on the long term impacts surgery and hormone therapy has on a patient and for that, there needs to be more oversight.
"Gender expression" =personality.
"Gender presentation" = fashion/hairstyle.
Anyone who believes they are in the wrong body is psychologically unwell, and needs psychological help
You cannot cure a mental illness with surgery.
You put way too much faith in psychiatrists and in medicine in general. Having worked in the medical field for a number of years I can tell you that some psychiatrists are a bit nutty and in fact some of the practitoners 'affirming' these people for 'transitioning' are psychiatrists. I think all of the so-called transitioning should be ended for all age groups as there is not enough good evidence to justify its use. And that some people say they find it helpful is not enough justification esp. if insurance or the gov't is paying for these very expensive medical interventions. And a long-term follow-up study showed that the suicide rate was 19x higher post-transition when matched w/ population controls.
1000 hours of counselling/evaluation is 20 years of weekly therapy. Do you perhaps want to rethink that? It doesn't take anything like 20 years of therapy to realize that a patient isn't a good candidate for therapy, and very few people get significantly more out of 20 years of weekly therapy than they would out of 10 or 5 years.
Also, while I agree that we need to return to a system of tight professional gatekeeping, I totally disagree that you need a physical health qualification (psychiatrist or advanced nursing as opposed to clinical psychology for eg). What is required is to assess whether or not someone is capable of using therapy to either alleviate their gender distress or learn to cope with it more constructively, that is the necessary assessment re a therapy/insight orientated pathway vs an "affirmative"/surgical pathway, not an Indepth knowledge of drug interactions and the endocrine system. The endocrinologist which you would theoretically refer the patient to at the end of your (way less than 1000 hour) assessment is the person who needs to have that Indepth knowledge.
I say all this as a registered nurse with advanced training as a psychodynamic psychotherapist who had nearly 20 years of weekly therapy (which was helpful to me) BTW.
@@lilith3953 the 1000 was an arbitrary number but your point has been made and you’re correct. A more reasonable figured could have been suggested. So let’s say 150-250. My point is continuation of counseling should be required beyond 1 appointment up to (and beyond) surgery and I say this given the number of patients who regrets surgery years after or who cite the lack of patient education during that process.
Regarding the psychology, the current system is far too lenient and it’s is mostly used as means to “check the box” for surgery approval and not in-depth mental health assessment/counseling. Certainly an endocrinologist will (should) discuss the side affects of hormone therapy which is often the physical.
I’m not suggesting it’s the job of the therapist to do the job of the endocrinologist regarding medication. I’m suggesting that the therapist should be able to assess hormonal Therapy impact on the patients psychology during treatment. That being said, none of this would make a difference if the patient providers aren’t collaborating with one another on the progress, physical and mentally, of the patient. It seems to me that these are often independent of each other, or at the very least, mental health is not tested as being highly regarded as it should be. Sarah’s recommending one of her patients not undergoing surgery, would have stopped any further action of the patient continuing.
Always interesting content
When I saw the thumbnail I thought they were interviewing Kristen Beck the retired Navy SEAL who transitioned back in 2013. Turns out she/they detransitioned last year and is now Chris Beck once more.
My therapists have never asked about sexual behavior and sexual trauma, although I am autistic and have struggled mightily with both for many years. Doctors are even more squeamish. I have not felt well-served despite spending a fortune on therapy. Even autism was overlooked. I am shy and always yearned for a healthy sex life but was too disconnected from my body to have that. Then SSRIs made me truly impotent and even more upset, because I was told it did not matter or was not true that I had suffered medication damage. I feel mutilated, sexless, even without any transition efforts. (I see this often in autistic persons, nothing sexy about them.) No one ever checks on results of therapy and that hurts!
I can't help feeling that Sara's work has done serious, irreparable harm to her young patients, particularly by coercing parents into it, thus removing the last safeguards for that child. She walked away when people trusted her, but they were already on a harmful path. I appreciate that she has changed her thinking. But the fact that 8 YEARS later she still hasn't followed up with those patients or parents to see how they're doing now to see if she can help any who might be suffering as a result of her previous advocacy is putting her head in the sand and avoiding responsibility. Just look at her body language when Sasha asked about follow ups (51:10 - 52:40). She seems cowardly at best, crass at worst. And she only publicly spoke out when it threatened her own children. Colossal hypocrisy! (Also, I really struggle with her continually using the terms "becoming female" and "becoming male"... NO ONE CAN CHANGE SEX. Her using this language perpetuates the lie of gender ideology and will only harm more people.)
This was very interesting in how Sara's experience illuminate how radical, and how _quick_ the shift has been.
I have been taking a casual interest in trans-stuff since the early 90ies. Back then it was easy to side with the "trans-lobby", because most of what was written was very pathologising in a way that sort of missed the point: there was still lots of unsavoury anti-gay sentiment popping up all over the place, a weird emphasis on 50 years out-of-date gender stereotypes, comorbidities were jumped on like they held the key to everything. There was NO, I repeat NO, really good outcomes described or theorised except conforming. (Psychiatry in general suffered from this, William Styron's Darkness Visible was only published in 1990, the psychiatric patient was not a subject with a voice.)
Today it is hard to understand the demonisation of Blanchard et al, but back in the day it all made sense. There were probably very good clinicians that helped individual transpeople, but public discussion was all "look at the freaks if you dare, this is so tragic" (and the same in medical-speak).
This is also (I believe) how the T got adopted by the LGB: they were so few, and it was in very living memory that gays were also talked about in this same language of pathology, this same hunting for a traumatic cause, etc.
Another reason that made it easy to side with the "trans lobby" was that it was actually very very hard to get any medical help in transition. Not to mention legal paperwork. Many countries had NO legal route for changing your gender. It seemed unfair, un-necessarily cruel.
I don't think anyone 20 or 30 years ago could imagine what has happened. It was so self-evident that embarking on transition was really, really hard unless you were really lucky in your physical attributes. Why would anyone even think of doing it unless they had to? (In that sense it did feel a bit like being gay, why would anyone choose this??!)
It is very hard for me to pinpoint where this really went off the rails. It probably is the queer-theory, and the postmodern dislike of physical reality.
For a long time I was wondering how PoMo feminism could live together with trans activism, since they seemed to be so fundamentally opposed in how they viewed sex and gender. The glue seems to have been the utterly ridiculous idea of self-ID. Self-ID smashes the old-school transsexual view, and opens the door for the whole activist field being dominated by what Douglas Murray calls "look at me!" people.
And we want to be kind (because transpeople suffered so much), so no one wants to call these nutjobs nutjobs. Because we don't want to kill Brandon Teena we stay silent when silly men dress up demand pronouns.
But why didn't more people react when the epidemic of younger trans-identifying people started? (Exactly when this was would be interesting to know, I think it might have been as early as 2010 or so.) Especially when the sex-distribution shifted?
I remember thinking back in 2010-15 that it was nice that we were seeing transmen a bit more (the ones I'd known in the 90ies were very private and low profile). Being older (and a bit spectrum-y) I didn't at all think about the potential for harm to teenage girls.
Indeed, thanks for your comment
Insightful comment. The bit you say “It probably is the queer-theory, and the postmodern dislike of physical reality.” is very critical. Between academic cerebral trickledown and obsession with technology and social media (both false constructs imo), both common sense and critical thinking have been utterly banished. There are ways to help gender dysphoric and thanks people. But what we are seeing now and hearing from Ms. Stockton is fundamentally not it.
*trans people not thanks
Yes! The older system was oppressive (I so appreciate your raising this!) but by the 90s the gate-keeping was more anti-sexist and anti-homophobic and seemed to work well (as this guest describes so well). I don't think the shift was due to actual pomo theory though. Both trans activists and gender critical feminists seem to be misunderstanding the vast majority of postmodern/feminist theory and focus only on the tangled arguments of Judith Butler. The new trans ideology has shifted essentialism from biology to psychology and the concept of gender from a social construct to an individual feeling. It posits identity as an innate individual psychological fact rather than a process of identity formation within biological and social realities. Feminism was right to be suspicious of biological essentialism (used to "prove" that women are weaker, less intelligent, etc. than men) and definitions (if strength is defined as force then generally women are weaker but if it is defined by endurance than women are stronger) and to strategically assert the concept of gender (as a social construct) as distinct from biological sex. This exposed how gender roles and performances were not innate but a result of ideology and socialization, freeing both men and women from the constrictions of enforced femininity and masculinity. The new trans ideology actually re-attaches gendered social performances to biology, conflating sex and gender, and is regressive and anti-feminist.
@@prof.jezebel Thank you, well put!
Especially this:
"The new trans ideology has shifted essentialism from biology to psychology and the concept of gender from a social construct to an individual feeling. "
(I think this can actually be applied to most "wokery", the toxic misunderstanding / misapplication comes exactly from this conflation of _proposed descriptions_ of social mechanisms with _individual feelings_. )
OMG wikipedia says that Stella is opposed to transgender rights ! 😢 That is a lie . Is anyone out there knowledgeable about wikipedia who could change that ? Thanks
Apparently this is not easy. Kelly Jay Keen's page is also pretty scurrilous.
If it were possible I feel one of her followers would have had a crack at it.
A much needed counterpoint to the assumption laden, research poor, life altering, medically devastating gender theory in its' current embodiment. Human Beings need much more focused attention on truly accepting each other and ourselves as who we are, as we are.
Such a fundamental nugget of wisdom. Thanks for your comment!
Good talk.
Thank you!
This is a horrific medical scandal the likes of which makes the lobotomy scandal look pedestrian!
Where is this 'gender non conforming girls' are often lesbians coming from? Most girls are not gender conforming, so much so that the concept of gender conforming has been dead in the water since the 80s. It is different for men, who often are either gay or straight who discover a certain type of short films that we probably cannot mention.
It certainly seems that way!
@36:00 er so. I think a huge problem with all professions is this disconnect from actuality. Perhaps we grow too fast. Hard to find any analysis of our waste - few go there! But its real truth and shit doesnt lie! Haha. Anyway, we are informed with lots of data but humans are quite diwconnected from the knowledge circuits we are actually a part of.
I think there is a metaphysical connection to gender and how we repress the feminine. So like the yin of yinyang, chaos, etc. Even academics often use chaos as disorder - it is not! Chaos is all inclusive and unconditional and can certainly be disorientating and yes sometimes disorder. But most certainly not the totality... Anyway i think an example of how we don't approach reality on realities terms. And many women (sex) are part of the repression too, not just penis people 😂
It sounds like she got into what she thought was an interesting area where she could do good research, and found out that the LAST thing that world wants to be subjected to is actual research.
I'll never understand how individuals can attain advanced degrees, all the while bending the knee to authority and "experts".
I swear, despite possessing liberal arts educations and backgrounds, it is impossible for most individuals to exercise a Liberal thought process.
I find most of those who perceive themself as Liberal, aren't. 🐿
Yes, this is the conclusion I have reached too.
It's almost impossible to attain an advance degree WITHOUT bending a knee to authority and "experts". Try handing in a paper criticizing your lecturers' favorite theorist or theory and see where that gets you. Not a good grade, no matter the caliber of your work, I can assure you.
@@lilith3953 Fair enough. I get it. However, why would those papers shape someone's character. Far left ideology doesn't pass modicum of scrutiny. It's as if they never play out the illogic in their minds and arrive a the catastrophic conclusions.
Clearly they can't think. Or won't. Idunno. 🐿
My doctor views the whole trans 'thing' as something for the 'gender specialists' to deal with.
Intellectuals with high trait conscientiousness and extroversion are selected for by the highly dogmatic discipline of science.
The scientific method actually disuades people with high trait Openess and low trait Agreeableness.
Science is applied skepticism for those who aren't comfortable asserting a dog is not a cat.
I still don't know what open-mindedness has to do with this??? A word I hear so often. It does not validate this medical abuse of children.
Look at how fearful people are. Close to 6,000 views and only 255 likes. That's OK, we'll say what you're thinking.
No question that when treating children for gender dysphoria there is a lot a therapist needs to consider in helping the child and parents decide if puberty blockers are a good idea. This does not mean they should be ruled out so that the child goes through a puberty that may negatively affect the rest of their lives. Personally, I believe if a child has symptoms of gender dysphoria and/or identifies as the gender different from their birth gender, most therapists understand the seriousness of this and take great caution in helping families make the right choices. If you are consulting a therapist who does not do this, get a better one. As far as the discussion in the video is concerned, Ms. Stockton said she has had very little follow up with patients. My understanding is, yes many children decide they are not trans after all and do not fully transition. However, there also is a fair percentage for which transition is the right choice. Ms. Stockton admits she does not have data from her practice to assess if transitioners are happy with their transitions. From what I know about the research, there are few transitioners who regret their decision to transition despite a heavy focus on individual detransitioners in the media. This may be more the case with adult transitioners, though I think even the vast majority of people who transition at a young age do not have regrets.
The question of regrets is interesting. Dessistance literature indicates that 60 to 90% of childhood-onset cases will reconcile with their birth sex. This is why we feel puberty blockade is such a dangerous decision in which parents and physicians are taking a guess and setting up the child for medical complications and medical dependency for the rest of their lives
But, what if the cases that reconciling with their birth sex are accurate. Those kids made the right decision not to transition. The other 10 - 40% may be accurate too in choosing transition. They then lead better lives. Of course mistakes are made in any kind of medical and psychological treatment. Personally, I think with proper training the mistakes in gender treatment are no different than in most other treatments considered successful.@@widerlenspod
Well that’s the problem. You may think whatever you like but without sufficient data, there’s no way to prove whether what you think is actually founded. All I know is I’m seeing videos from detransitioners multiply and they testify to a pushy ideology/medical approach. The AAP literally has only one single approach to address gender dysphoria. Name one single other condition where they only give a single option for treatment. There’s a lot more to say but let’s start there
I’m so sad to learn that someone took their life over this nonsense, but it isn’t surprising. Imagine the guilt the child will feel if and when they desist.
Shocking, yet again.
There should be discussions of Nuremburg like trials in the future for those that mutilated children. Start with a list today.
Very interesting thank you. There are loads of detransitioner videos now but what I think is even more interesting now is that we are seeing videos of transwomen who are saying they don't regret transitioning but they do regret the "bottom surgery" ie. castration. To my mind there is a slight paradox there. I know the surgery is brutal with quite often poor results and complications but even so, there is nothing that screams 'male' louder than a p*ni$.
😢
And now we've got the "gender minotaur" where you are both. Analysis of the use of a mythological figure from Crete which in antiquity, children were literally sacrificed to~
She made a living off of this, when it became less profitable (flooded pratictioner market) she claims to start thinking about things.
Even with the volume all the way up I can hardly hear this 🥲🥲🥲