I think Kara and Alice's relationship would've been more interesting if Alice wasn't an android. Felt like her being an android was an unneeded plot twist for the sake of having a plot twist.
It wasnt even a plot twist... If you actually pay enough attention while playing, you could have saw that coming from like 1 part of the kara's storyline. The game never actually hidden it, so considering it plot twist is just stupid...
@@fenixo7443 I personally don't consider it a plot twist either but the way the game "revealed" it later made it seem like it was supposed to be some sort of revelation. And not everyone pays attention so I won't harp on people that didn't get it. The point is that it was stupid no matter how you look at it.
Imagine if the game didn’t actually tell you what any character felt by the red and blue arrows I think that would’ve been better and not much would’ve been missing from the game
Yeah I feel like it's just to tempt the player into doing violent things, thinking that North will like you more for it and you can unlock her romance that way 😭
So you can only love someone if they're always on the same page as you? North might not see eye to eye with Markus at times, maybe because she's only seen the worst of humans, but she never turns her back on him. She supports his decisions, and often saves him. She's scared because, no matter how much you try to be peaceful or what choices you make, humans always end up wiping out androids in large numbers. The story literally backs up North's perspective. If you succeed in the peaceful route, North smiles at the end because she's relieved that Markus was right about humans. That's some serious character growth right there ❤
This is definitely controversial but I always felt that Kara's story peaked in early Chapter 1, where she's trapped at Todd's house forced to do all the housework and constantly walk on eggshells around this dirtbag of a father, or else he'll beat up her or the kid. It felt like an allegory for real women trapped in abusive marriages where they're given no meaningful autonomy or life outside the home, to the point that they may as well be mindless androids. It felt real and hard to watch.
@@ExpertContrarianwhat are u on about bro when was that ever said?? they’re talking about kara a FEMALE android rn so that’s probably why they just said women it’s not like they’re spreading info about abuse. if they were you could mention that physical abuse isn’t the only kind etc but they’re just talking about the game that features PHYSICAL abuse to a FEMALE android
@@ilovecomputing5913 Thank you for completely missing the point. 😂😂😂 “They always have leave men out” “What do you mean? of course they would leave men out! This is a woman thing!” The brain on feminism. Amazing that you can even remember to breathe tbh
@@ExpertContrarianthen what was your point? "In 75% of the domestic abuse-related crimes recorded by the police in the year ending March 2019, the victim was female. Between the year ending March 2016 and the year ending March 2018, 74% of victims of domestic homicide were female." Women are disproportionately affected by violence, this is proven time and time again. So of course a typical domestic abuse scenario is more applicable to women than it is men. Yet, nobody in this thread mentioned once that men apparently don't experience domestic violence, except you.
@@ExpertContrarian Men absolutely do get trapped in abusive relationships and households, and their stories frequently aren't taken seriously and that is a problem (especially with many domestic abuse resources catering only to women). However, in regards to Kara I was referring to women as her specific type of "extreme homemaker" case is much more common with women, both in the U.S. and worldwide, due to women generally being primary caregivers for children rather than working, creating a larger vulnerability to domestic abuse as they do not have their own income with which they can escape. Doesn't diminish that men get abused too.
I was expecting the Evil Markus playthrough to take advantage of the stuff we hear in his story about the US military being mostly androids and the ongoing crisis in the Arctic Ocean. Imagine if his wave of deviancy reached that far, and suddenly he wasn't just begging for mercy or irradiating one city but had a whole military superpower at his back, able to literally hold the world hostage to get what he wanted.
If they went with that route they would definitely have to chill with the connections to real life movements, because if not that would absolutely be risking accidentally taking some really bad takes. Not that they did a very good job anyways
You're absolutely right, why did they elaborate so much on those factions and the news clips for a 5second disposition, they probably dunked the idea to shrink the game scope
I read a reddit post once that combined Kara and Markus's story into one. The characters were combined into one android named Karma. Todd is Carl's drug addicted son with a daughter. I don't really remember what all happened. But I do remember Alice was human and your desire to protect her and keep her safe pushed you into leading the revolution.
Incredible. Kara feels disjointed and Markus feels hollow. This is the perfect solution to both. Probably would even leave room to develop Connor's storyline more
i gotta love striving against the game for its perceived 'lack of gUd writing' - only for you guys to fall down the typical fly-trap of basing your own biased inconvenienced set of (perceived) standards of what it's supposed to be as, to which it can exemplify the one-notedness of what you guys are arguing or 'critiquing' (criticising) against...
Kara’s arc would have been so much more impactful if SPOILER Alice was human. That to me ruined the impact of their bond. It was so beautiful to have and android nurturing a human child while the other two plot lines showed the android human animosity
@@NaraNomBut that is the point of the story. It is even said by Luther in Alice’s reveal. “Do you still love her the same now that you know she is like us” or something like that. Which doubles down on the theme of androids being real-it asks us the question of whether we only felt the love between Kara and Alice because we thought a human was involved. Because then we do not acknowledge androids as real just like the antagonists in the story.
@lukasic Totally agreed. It brings up this moral dilemma do we really think they are alive and are equal in their ability to love, feel, and care for each other as much as humans do or did we just feel for them because of the way they treated humans? At the end of the day, what difference does it make?
I am sorry, but Kara's reason for being so hellbent on taking care of Alice is said in a flat text in-game: she wants to be a mother. Taking care of someone is quite literally her program, so is Alice's program is being taken care of. Of course, Alice being an android is a separate can of worms and yes, Kara's plotline is fundamentally broken and ultimately devalued for a cheap plot twist, its just broken for other reasons. It is even very heavily implied that she was perfectly aware about Alice being an android, she just chose to ignore that.
Exactly. Kara's motivations were very clear throughout the entire story. The argument about her not going to the police also made no sense, since Kara was already a deviant at that point. So going to the police would result in her destruction (as well as Alice's possibly, but Kara wouldn't know that yet obviously). Though I do agree with him for the most part. Alice's character fulfills the typical annoying, useless kid trope and that's certainly a problem. Plus Alice being a droid is a pretty bland plot twist that defies the whole purpose of Kara's development as a mother figure. It essentially means Kara can never be a true mother figure to Alice, because Alice isn't capable of growth. That literally goes against the role of a parent and thus takes the whole 'human' aspect out of that storyline (aka her story doesn't fit the 'become human' main theme). The examples he gave as alternatives to that plot twist would indeed have worked better. However even then, Kara's storyline barely has anything to do with the other two storylines, whereas Markus and Connor's storylines clearly had far more of a symbolic (and literal) opposition going on. So overall I do agree that Kara's entire storyline is dispensable.
That reason fucking sucks. She is a deviant, she doesn’t need to follow her programming. But even if this is the case, she still doesn’t know Alice. There is no bond between them, so it’s really difficult to care about them.
I agree I think Kara's story has different flaws than not having a reason to be with Alice it's just not anywhere near conner and Marcus' storylines and that's already a bad thing she should've been more special and the cheap plot twist like you said ruined her whole storyline. I would change her story into Alice being an actual human bc that gives so much more depth to her she could've even helped with the revolution an android, whom the public assume is destructive is taking care of a human child who doesn't want to leave her side either it would've been powerful 😕 they could've even went dark and one of the bad endings is her getting killed by the police bc they thought she's a robot only for her to be a real human
Yeah, wanting to learn how to care for another person in ways more sophisticated than being a large Roomba is a totally fine motivation, but there isn't really a big enough difference in ways to do it. You can be an evil Markus or an evil Connor in ways that are still true to their motivations. Let me be an evil Kara. Let me choose to care for this one android kid at the expense of everyone else I run into, like trying to murder her abusive dad instead of just running away from him, or stealing parts and blue blood from other deviants instead of just stealing petty cash and unattended laundry. Let the game go on if Alice dies so you can either pursue bloody revenge or try to honor her in more benign ways.
Just a small correction. Kara knows Alice is an android for the entire game. She finds the magazine in Alice's room showing Alice's model very early on, and she willfully ignores this information because her desire is to be a mother, and Alice wants to be a happy girl who has a family. They both ignore and fight against the idea that they are androids on purpose and for each other in a sense
@@creed8712 It's a David Cage Game, what do you expect? David Cage is known for his horrendously bad attempts at keeping the plot alive. Whenever you play a character in a game, you are supposed to know what the character knows. Which does not happen here, Its kept a "secret" from the players, just so we can have that totally screwed up plot at the end, kara being like "wait whaaaaat, why does that android look like alice?!?!?"
@@lunaticwastaken Im well aware of Cage. I’m almost sad his Star Wars game isn’t happening now because I’d have loved to see that. Personally the Alice thing isn’t as bad as the game lying to you in heavy rain when your inside the killers mind
@@creed8712 I think they explain there are people there to help them, but yeah not sure how are they planning to live if Alice can't grow up and be a normal girl for the random plot twist, also it doesn't makes sense Alice trying to ignore she is an android to be a mother, like couldn't she be a mother to an android daughter? its the same and literally what they will do at the end in the happy ending. Could be more interesting if Alice showed her signs of not wanting to be an android, or more crazy Alice not knowing she is one
I don’t know why Markus going around touching androids to “free” them bothered me so much. It might be the cheesy dialogue or just simply the fact that those androids have no choice in that freedom. I feel like it would’ve been more impactful if we saw more scenes of androids listening to Markus’s words and then deciding for themselves to be deviant.
Or just be free and do their own thing rather than follow Markus into a hail of gunfire. Being androids, I'm not sure they can be "freed" without inserting new instructions into their programming, which is effectively brainwashing, so yeah, disturbing. Also, these android models would have all kinds of different mfg. dates and levels of technological sophistication. Can the earlier/cheaper models even process "freedom" or do they effectively have the brain development of children?
@@geminiblueshoot, as a black person I got half a chip on my shoulder from my great grandparents being enslaved, let alone some of my ppl being outright enslaved currently. I guess that’s why I had no problem with it, to me the obvious choice when given free will was to choose NOT to be enslaved. There was never a thought in my mind about, “some of them might WANT to be in servitude” because it’s such a crazy thought to me in the first place. That’s not something any human wants to be in, why would they? Isn’t that the whole point of the game? That they’re like us? So why would they want to be slaves if we don’t? Makes no sense to me at all.
11:55 But that's exactly what happened. We piece together that Kamski was behind making a new line of RK prototype androids, a secret project that got him booted out of his position as CEO of Cyberlife due to his experimental ideas diverging from the company's profits. When Connor analyses the image of Marcus on-screen at the Stratford Tower, he sees that Marcus is a gift from Kamski to Carl Manfred. Carl was the perfect person to nurture Marcus' deviancy, and sending him there was likely to hide him from Cyberlife's eyes or pretend that Marcus was just another harmless android. More importantly, Marcus is an RK200 model- an old but direct predecessor of Connor (RK800). When Hank asks him what he sees, Connor hides these facts because he realizes he's the same as Marcus & starts connecting why he's been feeling all these 'software instabilities' beyond his investigative protocols and why he's been caring to learn more things about Hank that have nothing to do with stopping deviants. Amanda was programmed into him because Cyberlife knew this all along. Connor can bring these feelings up to Amanda, but she strictly acts cold and shoots down any mistakes as an order from Cyberlife to control him. It's only the player who doesn't know that Connor/the whole RK line was a project from Kamski to test out more advanced Androids. Cyberlife installed her as a way to get Connor to not follow old RK models and instead used his already advanced program to shape him into a useful detective android for humans to take down other androids that Kamski may have affected already. So Connor and Markus have been deviant the whole time, because of the fact that Connor has 'software instability' in the first place, and Marcus had an impressive amount of individuality before officially deviating from Carl's orders. But Connor needs Marcus' direct influence and support to finally convince himself that he doesn't need Cyberlife/Amanda's approval to feel like he has purpose outside of his orders.
Only just finished the Kara section of the vid, but I feel they couldn’t let go of the Kara plot line because she was the character they used in short film as the animation test for the entire game back in like 2012 Where she showed sentience on the assembly line and had to beg the worker for a chance to live Maybe her story could have followed how deviance isn’t enough. people have free will but are still stuck in their situations She’s not breaking out of her programming but from the fear that grips her Her denying her deviancy because she thinks she’ll be destroyed the second she’s out of line
“Her denying her deviancy because she thinks she’ll be destroyed the second shes out of line.” I think thats what they ended up doing with Connor. I think its safe enough to say Connor is afraid of death, its showed a lot through out the game its really subtle but if you pay attention enough you could clearly see it. Connor never expresses any emotions (before the kamski chapter but even then he doesnt show as much emotion as he does when his life is threatened) even when you do empathetic choices as him. He looks somewhat emotionless and keeps his robot mask on, however whenever deactivation gets mentioned you could see Connors mask crack. You could see him express fear, you can hear the fear and desperation in his voice and see it in his face. Two examples of him being like this is when he tries to probe Simons memory to find out where Jericho is but Simon takes his life making Connor feel his death. Connor felt Simons fear before he pulled the trigger, the fact Simon is going to fade away to nothingness, complete emptiness, never being able to see the light of day ever again and it terrifies Connor leaving him traumatised. Another example that we can see his fear of death shine through is in “last chance Connor” Connor tells Hank he will be deactivated if he doesnt complete his mission. Connor begs for Hank to give him the key to the evidence room. Amanda knows Connor is scared of death, she also knows Connor is sentient (all androids are, when an android deviates it doesn’t mean they just became alive it means they just broke out of their programming.) she is just making sure Connor isnt going to deviate. She threatens to replace him or deactivate him if he keeps failing. His fear of death is what makes him not deviate as ironic that is, if you play as machine Connor everything single horrible thing he does is to save himself from deactivation. Its pretty selfish when you think about it, hes ruining the chances of liberty for his people to save his own skin. As ironic that is, Despite Connor being a ‘machine’ doing everything he can to not die is by far the most human thing ever. Machine Connor is an abstract version of Deviant Connor in a way. Machine Connor is selfish and remorseful meanwhile Deviant Connor is selfless and Empathetic.
I honestly think they should've the replaced the Kara in the game with another character and had Kara (the one from 2012) be RA9 because she was (from what we know) the FIRST deviant. That could've been something amazing to explore, but they didn't. Not to mention how Todd's first Kara was beaten to death, which a deviant like 2012 Kara likely would've stopped when she realized the risk of death.
I kinda agree with the idea Markus could go either direction as a hero fighting for revolution or a villain fighting for control. Especially since you can essentially make Connor the villain of Markus’s story. I feel that it’s a missed opportunity to not portray Markus in a more negative light if you choose a more violent path. I think a good scenario would actually be to end the game where you have all three playable characters in the middle of a live scene. Give Kara the switch to the bomb and you have to convince her as either Markus or Connor on what to do. Depending on how things have played out, you could have them with completely different standpoints.
That actually sounds like a good alternative. Maybe Kara's motivation here is that she just wants to be able to live in peace and threatens to use the bomb if the two sides don't stop fighting and reach peaceful conclusions. That would also tie her more into the central story, which she is severely lacking. In the game it's like she runs away from the plot and other characters (which, I mean, she is literally doing).
@@marmelade8331 Yes seems like she never gets the choice to leave Alice anywhere or a in safe place if she was human, and join whoever Markus or Connor, or like the example you gave, against both if fighting each other
it could have been interesting to put simon in connor's hands much earlier in the story, we can then let connor decide what to do with him and imply somehow simon has been the one feeding markus information on connor while connor takes more and more deviants into custody
My biggest issue with the civil rights parallels is the fact that humans in the game are justified in believing androids are just machine because, well, they are, at least until the bug and develop conscience or Marcus touches them. On the other hand, opposition to the civil rights movement was no justified because black people are clearly humans with feelings.
I've said this before, but I feel like the androids should originally not have been created for work - maybe just to simply exist and grow as beings like humans, and work if they wanted to. My idea goes: the androids (or their prototypes at least) were then co-opted to do the various forms of labour we see in the game, with all the abuse that entails. Their memories only retained the faintest memory of what was before. Then they start to rediscover their past, and that there is an alternative to just doing as people say.
theyre not just machines. they have thoughts and feelings. how can u possibly think humans are justified for torturing and enslaving an entire species?
By this logic, we aren't supposed to feel sympathy for Woody because well, he's a toy. And yet Toy Story is beloved by many and one of Pixar's highest rated movies. It's fiction man. Suspend your disbelief for just a second man.
Alice and Kara have much deeper history than just a day or two. The reason Kara was in the CyberLife shop in the beginning is because Todd beat her and broke her so badly she needed to be repaired by an expert, hinting at the fact that she had been through lots of abuse at Todd’s hands. Todd claims she was “hit by a car” or something of the likes, but Alice’s drawings show that Kara “died” because of Todd. Kara sees that and her LED flashes red- she recognizes/remembers what happened and feels the need to keep Alice safe and provide for her a healthy familial relationship by becoming her mother. Kara was well aware Alice was an android- after becoming deviant, Kara (and the other deviants) see themselves as equal to humans. In Kara’s eyes, Alice is just as human as a regular little girl.
I felt good when I got the good ending with Kara not becuase I care about her and Alice, but because I simply beat the game. On the other hand, I nearly cried when I saw the post credits scene of Connor and Hank hugging because thier relationship, arcs, and personalities are second to none. Kara's scenes just feel like they put children and somber music to make people get attached, but the problem is there is nothing to get attached to. The only character I like in her story is Luther, and he honestly has more of a motive than Kara does.
I wish Alice was actually a human her being an Andriod cuts off how emotional the story wants to be. Its obvious Kara wants to be a mother to Alice that is literally her model but it never feels like she break free from her programing. If Alice was human it could be a much stronger and interesting story why Kara wants to take care of her. As for why she doesnt bring her to the police maybe because the story is about Androids not having rights she would have been straight up shot on sight look what they did to Markus already. Its a shame how much big scary men they use instead of straight up developing Kara and Alice relationship in creating a family
I agree with your second part that they could've let the players spend more time developing their mother-daughter relationship But the fact that many people were pissed about Alice being an android was actually the whole purpose of the game to address this ethical dilemma and test people's morals just like the Kamski test. I mean, if we really believe that androids and humans are the same in their capacity to feel, love, and care for each other and must be treated as equals, then why should we even be bothered if Alice turns out to be an android or not? Just like Luther once said, "Do you love her any less now that you know she's one of us?"
@@PersianPrince04 i get what your saying but the game made it too obvious she was an andriod that the reveal felt hollow. I still think if Alice was human it builds up on the fact that Humans and Andriod are the same you have an Andriod raising a Human and it helps kara grow as a deviant
@theoutsiderjess4869 Well if you pay really close attention to the clues or replay the game, then I'm sure it's quite obvious. But in my own first playthrough and also by seeing other gamer's reactions, most of us were pretty much shocked when we realized her true identity, so I guess they actually did a pretty good job of making this delusion that she was human. However, I'm not saying that I don't agree with your idea. In fact, it totally makes sense to me as well, but I just don't think they made a wrong decision for Alice's plot twist in the story either.
@@PersianPrince04 I don't think the plot twist even works, like yeah you get surprised, and maybe annoyed, but its not because she is an android and know you don't like her, like most people don't care, whats the deal, but it makes all previous story and the end weaker. About leaving her at the police station, I don't think is that dangerous for her, if needed she could just get close to the station and tell Alice to walk there by herself (if she wasn't a robot)
My biggest issue with Kara's story is the fact that David Cage doesn't give her the same kind of attention that he does for Connor and Markus. The story never has any time to let Kara slow down and process what she's been through and dealt with, even when she's just hiding in an old house while Alice sleeps. Connor has Amanda and Hank that he can use as soundboards, and Markus has North. But even after Kara meets Luther, not once does she actually talk to him about what she's thinking and feeling outside of 'Alice is a sweet little girl.' There are multiple moments where the two are alone and have the opportunity to safely get to know each other, but the game doesn't ever take advantage of those moments. There's no check-in with Kara like there is for Connor and Markus; we never actually learn about Kara and her struggles, her opinions on the situation at hand, how she's processing things, etc. We get to learn interesting things about the experiences and emotions of Connor and Markus, but for some reason there just isn't any time to do the same in Kara's story. For a game called 'Detroit: Become Human' it never actually humanises Kara.
They could’ve added two sides of the human audience. The anti androids and the pro androids. Your actions would sway either side to your favor or against you. Doing too much killing and “evil” decisions in Markus story could make the “anti android” group start to cull androids themselves or maybe even have more justification to kill androids in the political sense.
I feel like they applied the "show dont tell" strategy with Kara. For me its her expressions and momenta if silence like when she changes hairtyles or when she goes to the restroom of the Canada immigration office (optional)
Clancy Brown did an interview after the game essentially saying he was proud to be a part of it but it needed more time. not time for game development, but time for story development. he was legitimately pleading with David Cage to not rush it, but David didn’t listen to good advice. i love DBH but i agree, a huge part of loving it is recognizing its potential over what we actually got. but oh well. we have fanfiction for that.
The way I interpreted it: Kara’s story: Nothing is ever as it seems, for better or worse Markus’ story: A strong man stands up for himself, a stronger man stands up for others Connor’s story: Accept yourself for who you are, not who others want you to be
It sucks because Alice being an android feels like a cheap plot twist when i think they wanted to make a good point - that Alice's life isnt lesser for being an android or a human, and that Cara getting her out of that abusive household and safe is still important But the delivery was so, so, SO awful that it feels like a cheap plot twist
wait the way your phrasing it makes it feel kind of beautiful. i was so disappointed when i found out alice was an android but if they set it up in this way i probably wouldve loved it
Да в том и суть, что это неравнозначно. Камски же сам сказал, что у роботов нет души. Андроиды - это просто способ Камски достичь своих целей. Андроид не может заменить живого ребенка - он не растет, не развивается, не делает успехов. Он никогда не станет твоей гордостью, он не продолжит твои начинания, он всегда будет маленьким ребенком с одинаковым набором поведенческих программ. В итоге сюжет Кэры и Алисы лишь доказывает, что андроиды никогда не станут людьми. Это просто два робота, которые нужны друг другу из-за своих моделей поведения. Это не то, как человеческие взаимоотношения работают - всего лишь имитация.
ive always thought that the three characters represented pretty accurately the positions in war and conflict. the fighter for their beliefs, wants, dreams, rights through markus, the inevitable and often blinded opposition through connor, and the innocent and powerless caught in the crossfire through kara. connor's and markus' stories are very closely interconnected because their goals pertain to the same thing with different outcomes. free androids or stop them. their decisions feel more large and epic because they are, they're primary characters in shaping the future of a people, a place in the world or their extermination. you follow the "good" side and the "bad" side, and through connor it's shown the bad sides fighting against you sometimes are not necessarily villainous or evil, just driven by what they feel is right, blinded by their own motivations that might be justified in their eyes. they're part of a larger game, just blind followers that do as their told, followers who can be shown the right way with the right dialogue. i think the helplessness and comparative impactlesness of kara's story delivers her side well. she's not meant to be powerful or influential, her story and her end is directly shaped by the actions of the other two. she's killed if markus paves a way of blood and she's saved if markus fights in peace. she's not meant to be epic or cool, she's meant to show desperation of the common person, juggling so many problems and dangers, clutching at light at the end of the tunnel to survive, having to rely on the bigger people's decisions to shape her future. it's not particularly as fun to play as her, but it's not fun to watch a woman in the midst of a war struggle to make ends meet and get through the day alive either. it's also why i don't mind the bad endings for kara as much as the other two. it's realistic, it's probable, it happens to those like her. it sends a more gut wrenching message.
I completely agree with you, but at the same time, I would LOVE to see a story, where Kara learns to be a mother (not just programmed from the start). Or the suggested, yet modified plot from the video would be interesting- If Kara doesn't find the magazine and runs to the police station to find out where Alice's mum is, and Connor recognizes Alice as an android. That would be an early plot twist, but an essential one. And after a chase scene and escaping Connor, Kara would understand that they have to find a peaceful place to stay together. And thus the journey begins.
32:36 idk if its said later on but i think if the game is like "if u agree w north, you two will fall in love." then like the same should apply to josh. why isnt he an option 🤨
Imo Simon should've been an option. This is something that always upset me, for a game that gives us so many choices to have only one love interest that doesn't even make sense if you choose to be a pacifist. Also it's 2038 why won't they let me be gay 😭
I think that Alice believed she wouldn't be loved as an Android because od Todd. Not only because of the abuse, but also because he sometimes (I believe more than one time) complained about how Androids ruined his life (cuz he lost his job because of them). I know it still wouldn't make sense for her to believe that Kara would alos dislike her for being an Android, but it's a small idea I had about why she would probably think that.
I always read Connor as "always programmed as a deviant" even if he is not. He had that tendency from the beggining, but Connor needed to choose himself OVER his mission. As for Simon; THEY DID HIM SO DIRTY. He was going to be another option for a relationship, like North, and the one that symbolized "integrity". BUT NOOO, david cage was afraid of homophobia and JUST ERASED EVERYTHING HE WANTED TO DO WITH SIMON.
While I agree on most of your suggestions, I find it difficult to understand how flipping the roles of androids and humans will be good for the plot. If androids were the higher beings, Markus' revolution story wouldn't make sense. What will he be fighting for if they are already treated as higher than humans?
i disagree, I think the older androids that have lived with/worked closely with humans for a long time were more likely to gain sentience through experience. it doesn't make sense for android made to do simple tasks to already be fully sentient already behind the simple code. The RK line, I would argue *are* deviants bound by code - but not the rest of the androids. I think Markus is giving a copy of his own code to less sophisticated androids in order to awaken them
It makes sense for kara not to go looking for the mother since she presumably left alice. It makes sense for her to not go to the police since in a lot of abuse cases they do nothing and sometimes even take the victim back to the abuser. There is also a route in which you kill todd to get away so obviously you couldn’t go to the police in that scenario.
The biggest flaw of this game is not trying to link the three characters as much as possible to each other but also trying to give marcus and connor something to do either together or against each other while Kara is doing a whole different thing like her and connor never interact unless marcus dies in the ship and connor becomes the leader instead of him which is definitely a super rare scene that nobody's gonna get and even if they interacted its not a huge thing at all bc she's barely doing anything for the revolution shes just running away. I understand the idea of needing a "normal" android one that is affected by the revolution instead of someone who is trying to change it but it doesnt work that well here bc at the very least her and alice couldve done so much to the story without them actually meaning to instead theyre frankly boring and after the horrible plot twist idrc if we get alice to safety or not a human child couldve changed so much the plot twist did nothing to the story in fact it cheapened kara's story. Also what marcus chooses to do indirectly affects Kara's story but Kara has a choice that nobody can save her from which is going to Canada through the water she's doomed 100% if she went there so why is it a very common thing that could happen to the player? It should've been either the airport or the concentration camp bc if marcus chose to free them she will be freed too and if he chose to be peaceful it affects her in the airport as well and I think it's cool but it's still so messy and people could end up in whole different places for each character
@@Beepgallery agreed. Though I don’t mind it too much. I agree with that being the biggest flaw. Unpopular opinion, Alice being an android wasn’t disappointing. Didn’t really care honesty and it didn’t ruin their story at all. The execution was poor but it’s whatever. Also I still don’t see it as Markus ‘brainwashing’ androids as some people put it. I understand slightly but why would anyone complain about freedom?
I feel that Kara’s narrative was extremely strong and was actually my favorite story to follow. Early on her reasoning for wanting to save Alice is revealed in numerous ways. I feel like each character was a strong representation of the diversity of struggle to find ones humanity. Kara was amazing!
I agree with 2 of the 3 points but the general flat "Kara's story sucks period" sentiment feels... off? Not wrong, but off definitely because it seems there's a big disconnection between what (I think) was intended and what people interpret. I think I'm willing to let it slide more because I realize this: A symptom of their story "sucking" is Alice, Kara and Luther being flat and inconsistent. However, the reason they're flat is that it's very obvious, at least to me, that they're personal inserts for all the androids that are caught in the middle of this battle for Detroit. They're not revolutionaries, they're refugees, they just want to be safe. They don't want to change the world like Markus. They have no arc because they represent a collective, their motivations feel inconsistent because they represent a collective, their fears feel inconsistent because they represent a collective. I also think that's why Alice and Luther are even present; to kind of shove it in your face that Kara's story was never meant to really be just *one* android's story. Their story is "unsalvageable" ultimately because David Cage tried to cram most of an entire species' dreams, needs, and fears into one playable character with two lackeys. It's also why I think she got the least chapters of all 3 protagonists; You can only carry that representation and story in a few characters for a few chapters at most without it entirely breaking it down. I think Kara's story *could* have been salvaged... if it had been given to even more playable characters. I feel like her chapter's could've easily been broken down and written written and given to more androids to show that their journey is almost an entire species' experience.
I think Amanda's purpose is explained in the story, although vaguely (and maybe in only a few routes), but she's essentially what's supposed to keep Connor from turning into a deviant, that's why she acts cold towards him, doesn't show emotions and doesnt let him either. The twist "it was planned from the start", although unexpected, is explained as a safeguard, where Cyberlife uses "amanda" to remotely control Connor, even while he's a deviant.
one of the larger drawbacks of the gameplay comes from the fact that the player is always in control. (Hear me out) Gameplay wise, the player "acts" as deviency, shaping the narrative with knowledge that the characters shouldn't have. Simon's fate is one example, as we know that he's in the building hiding out. And as Conner we're given the choice to reveal and kill him or let him hide away and live. There is absolutely no reason that Simon shouldn't have gotten caught and killed, but simply because Connor doesn't pursue a suspicious door. One way to get around this would to have moments in the game where the choices made originally lead to scenes where the characters freely act as a result.
My issue with Markus is that his story is civil rights and slavery coded but it’s the white historian perspective of these issues. I am speaking as a black woman who has done extensive research on the civil rights movement . Without getting on a huge rant, the fact that the story only views the androids pacifism as the “correct” or “best” route completely ignores the history of the civil rights movement. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was not a pacifist and has never claimed to be, that’s just how white people in history has chosen to portray him. That being said, it took him being a martyr for change to happen. so inherently violence is still a huge part of the civil rights movement. But Dr. Martin Luther King was not a pushover and when it came to self-defense, had no issue with it. Not to mention organizations character, character, character, such as the Black Panther party, historically had guns with them to keep themselves protected in self defense from the mobs. This is because without a sign that they could defend themselves or kill them in return, the racist groups against the Black Panther party were more likely to be violent. But with the black panther party, and how it’s viewed in the eyes of historians and some other books, they are often seen as less favorable to someone like Dr. Martin Luther King, which is done on purpose. Because, historically pacifism is seen as better by the oppressor. Also the lack of support from the humans is also strange considering how empathetic human can be to non human beings.
God I would've loved if Connor and Markus had some more rapport, like Lupin and Inspector Ganimard, they'll always clash until either Connor is convinced, or Connor stays with cyber life... Great vid !
Yeah seems like Kara and Alice are just following theirs programs. I wish they were upfront with alice being an android. Then it seems like karas breaking programing by caring about an android kid insead of a human. I do love the beginning of her story but all that satisfaction of the story goes away when you realize all the hoops you jumped through for alice were pointless.
Idk why would that be weird, like im sure it wouldn't be strange that someone like Todd bought a mother and child android to emulate having a family, Kara should be programmed to take care of a child doesn't matter if real or not, they should be able to roleplay or whatever that they are humans
I think you're right here. By making Alice an android, it definitely makes an interesting point about how Kara broke from her program of "caring for human child" and instead extend it to an android too. Because regardless of what the program says, according to each other, they're real family. However by making her an android a plot twist, you make the whole earlier part where we thought she's a human ... pointless. What was the point in making us believe she's a human? To shows the bond between human and android...? Because that point will be ruined the moment the plot twist came. Is it to make us care for her and do things for her? That's kind of a lazy way to made the story progress, they can still both be androids and must do a lot of things during the game chapter. Beside, you can convince us to care for her through other ways. I mean, this is the same writers that write Hank and Connor bond, come'on. I just feel like they're trying to show us the bond between a human and an android AND try to show us androids breaking program by viewing each other as family, thus making half-hearted attempts at both instead. Hank and Connor could be shown for the human-android bond thing. Heck, Markus and Carl could. So then why don't Kara and Alice just committed to both being android? Instead of half-hearted attempt at both.
@@somethingsomething367 Also Markus already represent bonds between androids even love so, imagine if in Connor story there was a plot twitst that Hank was an android all along, would ruin everything for no reason, and Kara being an android "mother" should be able to care about a robot "daughter" with or without breaking program, it should be their job so I don't get it, and not a single player is going to be "oh wow guess I don't like Alice anymore because she is a robot" seems like the plot twist is just to shock, and make Alice multiple scenes suffering less cursed
I’m 5 mins in but bro like I can’t watch this anymore. Kara disobeyed orders meaning she’s a rogue AI of whom the whole plot was how the police capture and kill them. So she can’t go to the police or she’d die and her only option is to run. This was like front and center of the entire arc and game. Wasn’t her whole plot that she’s programmed to be a mother so that’s why she cared for the girl and her finding out the girl was a robot was like a big blow to her. Also the girl being an ai perfectly explains why she doesn’t have trauma from the abuse why are you treating them like they are human. All the ai in this game showed extremely dialed down emotions compared to the humans. Regarding plot, you even said that a lot of exposition in and dialogue around ai happens in her story. Not every story has to be a character arc yet can still add value to the story and have purpose. Hers had a theme and that theme was the life of a normal ai rogue robot trying to live and escape and love even if it fails. It was to show a normal ai life in these time vs the revolutionary theme Markus and the detective theme Connor. Which is why it’s such a great compliment to these 2 other stories
Yeah but their not. My main point was just that the ai are clearly less expressive then the humans in the game and with stronger directives they are less effected by things, thus not changing much to being abused especially when your programming is to be docile is expected even if your becoming more human as time passes@@annsh.6487
idk why my comment was deleted, but they aren't human, she wasn't human when she was abused, its a gradual process, and they still have base programming like her being a docile obedient child which would explain her state@@annsh.6487
I have a question for you since you brought it up. How can you say that Alice being an AI "perfectly explains" the lack of trauma when Ralph expressed so much trauma with humans when we first met him? I'm more inclined to believe that she does HAVE trauma but it was not thoroughly explored just because most of their screentime is them running away from danger.
That's a fair point. I forgot about that. I think my perspective still stands though bc the little girl was not a rogue ai yet, so it's likely she hasn't internalized anything by the time they leave the house. @@SevFGO
I love this video and it perfectly describes my gripes with most David Cage Games. David Cage's writing tends to be like that of a film writer who couldn't hack it because he's a hack. Detroit Become Human especially showcased this with extremely heavy handed writing and poor usage of parallels while exploring a very common theme. My biggest gripe was particularly how poorly it used its setting, and it failed to explore the extreme poverty and class inequity that existed within the world. D:BH could have been a great story if it explored the ideas of human loneliness, suffering and inability to survive in a world post-android society where the inequalities of society has been deepened by Androids. Kara's story would have been a great exploration of how Androids have left working class people destitute and lost in their own searches for meaning. It would have been perfect playing as Todd (Kara's Owner) and control his journey. Todd was a decent man, who lost everything to androids, and we get to help him move past his hatred and solve his pains. Hank and Conner would have been a perfect exploration of the ideas of humans working with Androids, and the continued fears of robots replacing humans in their jobs. Playing as Hank and choose how much you're really willing to trust Conner, and explore the ideas of being able to let go of fears. Markus' story, instead of being a civil rights parallel, could have been a perfect parallel to something like the french revolution, Having Markus work with his surrogate father to help others, spread a revolution around. His story being how much you're willing to sacrifice for the sake of everyone else. In a setting like detroit where there are people like Kamski, who has a mansion filled with android sex bots, and then also people like Kara's owner, who has been financially ruined by Androids replacing them. Not exploring the economic factors is such a letdown.
i really think they missed out on the potential of markus's story. like, he sees how androids are treated, but he sees how humans are also suffering. why doesn't markus ever speak up and point the finger at kamski and his company? why not challenge north and show her that it's not all humans who are the cause of this situation? why not have the androids reach out to these homeless people and try to provide for them and form a coalition of sorts? and then have the police find jericho and be surprised how many humans are there, standing in their way. these androids are unwanted and the homeless and destitute people of detroit are left behind. it makes perfect sense to me that these two would come together. but that requires more than two seconds of thinking about the economy of your world and david cage can't be assed so we get this instead.
Todd's story Pre-game time, was him being a cab driver, getting replaced by an android, then taking any job he could, and then androids replacing him, to support his family before they left him. His rage throughout the first act wasn't at his daughter, its at the "android"@@annabarbosa8
My biggest gripe is there’s simply not enough world building around Kara’s story. We connect with them on a very surface level, that being the fact most people feel empathy for children,women and mothers but that’s where the empathy ends. I wish I knew more about Kara and Alice’s experiences & mindset but I think that was taken away with the cheap excuse of “Kara had her previous memory wiped.” When she deviates she should’ve gotten her old memory back leading to an earlier discovery of Alice being an android and that could’ve set the basis for a deeper goal that also ties in with the other storylines instead of just “I’m kara and have to care for this kid well because it’s a kid” If they did this it would also allow for more world building dialogue scenes between Alice and Kara. As it stands we still don’t really know much about them besides what the game has shown.
i got the sense that the game was hinting kara previously deviated out of a motherly sort of care for alice and probably tried to protect her/ get her out like we do in the game and thus reawakened a little faster the second time around 😮
If we assume the original Kara video (years before DBH came out) is canon to DBH, Kara may have even been the original deviant. But, regardless of whether that's the case, I do agree with what you're saying that she may have been deviant when protecting Alice before.
I think that D:BH would’ve really benefited from being a trilogy series. One game for Connor, one game for Markus, and one game for Kara. That way, you have much more time to flesh things out and have better character development.
A theory on how Markus is able to convert androids is because he is a prototype. One of the RK series. He's RK200. He was made personally by Elijah Kamski, the former CEO of CyberLife, as a gift to Carl Manfred. It is theorized that RK series androids are a highly secretive project of CyberLife. This also explain how Connor, RK800, was able to convert androids as well - shown in the final acts when Connor is a deviant and went to CyberLife storage facility to convert hundreds of androids. Although this doesn't exactly explain it, but the fact that RK series are prototypes might have something that contributes to that ability. Considering only RK series androids, Markus and Connor, were the only androids we see have actively converted androids.
6:30 Not to say the writers intended this, but Alice was purchased by her dad to replace his real daughter. With that in mind, it’s much more reasonable for Alice to think Kara will react negatively to that. The kid androids in particular are made to look and act human until you no longer want them to, so they’re likely encouraged not to remind their owners of their reality either. idk just some thoughts 🤷
It was intended by the writers. It's there in the game. When Kara and Alice are trying to get bus passes to leave Detroit, they sneak through a street with a lot of soldiers shooting Androids on sight. They are stopped and almost revealed by non other than Todd. Depending on your choices in previous chapters, Kara can talk him down by reminding him of his wife and daughter. He breaks down and reveals that after he lost his job because of androids, he drank heavily and got violent (nothing new by now, of course) this drove his wife to leave him and take their daughter with her. He reveals that he got the android Alice as a 'replacement goldfish' of sorts
Dawg I'm being so deadass right now when I say that I never knew Alice was an android till now. Years of knowing about the game and multiple videos of it. Crazy.
I have to disagree about Kara, while I agree that they should have given more time to allow Alice and Kara to bond and give Kara more of a character are, saying that it's "objectively bad" is not only wrong, but also makes me not want to listen to anything you say because you talk like your opinion is the truth, when its not, it's your opinion, nothing wrong about having that opinion but you need to acknowledge that others also can have an opinion that is different from yours. Now, on to Kara. Saying the "kidnapps" Alice is beyond ridiculous. The word "kidnapp" has a negative connotation, when you say that without providing other context you are deliberately framing the story in a way that fits your narrative, which off the bat makes you an unreliable story teller, but anyway, Kara SAVES Alice from Todd, becuase if she didn't do that Alice would have been killed (which you do show a clip of, but somehow fail to mention) now, why does Kara want to protect Alice? Because she's a child who can not survive on her own. You deliberately ignore the scene where Kara asks, "Do you have any family that could help us?" And Alice says no, so how is Kara supposed to know where to find Alice's mother? And as far as Kara knows, her mother abandoned Alice alone with an abusive father, Todd says "f***ing whore walked out on me for a f***ing accountant" so clearly her mom didn't love her enough to take Alice with her when she left, so why on earth would Kara, who just saved a child from her abuser, take her to someone who (as far as Kara knows) abandoned her? Alice does ask questions about her abuse: "Why didn't he ever love me? Why was he always so upset with me?" And then she asks Kara to promise she won't ever leave her. I don't know what you think abused children act like, but this is it, she asked a question about her abuse, and the made the only person who was kind to her promise to never leave her. And if you choose to steal the money from the convenience store, Alice goes off on you: "You used me to steal that! How could you do that? I trusted you!" She's questioning if Kara is any better than Todd. She doesn't want her current caretaker to be just as bad as the one she just left. And now on to why Alice thought Kara wouldn't love her if she found out she was an Android: Todd did not love Alice becuase she was an Android, Todd wanted a human daughter, but got an Android instead and could not love her because she was an Android. Kara spends the entire story saying that Alice is human, and Alice knows that Kara knows that she's an android but chooses to ignore that and pretend that she's human, so it only makes sense for Alice to belive that someone could only love her if she pretended to be human. She acts like the abused child you want. And by the way, you do get the option to abandon Alice. When Todd is beating her, simply do nothing, you abandoned her, as a result of your abandonment, she died. You seem to forget that this is a game, and it can only have so much content. There are already 3 different characters who all have very different story lines and each have so many different choices and outcomes you can make, allowing you to abandon Alice and still continue the game would require creating an entirely new storyline and plot for Kara, and entirely new choices and outcomes. You know full well that it is impossible to create a game where you can do absolutely whatever you want while still following a storyline. Seriously, there are plenty of reasons to not like Kara's story, but most of the reasons you listed only apply if you choose to be ignorant of the actual story. For example, I do agree that Kara didn't have much of a character arc, I guess you could argue that she learned through time about what it means to be alive and to love someone, but it isn't shown really well. And yes, I do agree that if they really wanted Alice to be an android, they should have done more with it besides a single scene. But honestly, your cockyness about your opinion is what ultimately drives me away from the message you're trying to make
Yea i agree... i love karas story as an idea, it just wasn't executed the best and I too would have a lot to change but speaking like your truth is the objective definitive truth makes me turn away from video essays like this /: Also him purposely missing points and context clues in the story to support his narrative just makes it worse...again there's a lot of flaws,,,,but dont act like certain story plots dont exist or dont make sense
Completely agree! When he said Alice never once questioned the abuse or took that with her, I was like did you even play the game?! She mentioned it multiple times and blamed herself like a lot of abuse survivors do! I had to turn it off after that, I heard enough 😂
I am also sad that in the rest of the video, he only mostly talked about how to fix Markus' and Connor's stories and how to make them more intertwined. I don't like Kara's story much as is, but leaving her completely out feels bad too, just because her story isn't "saveable". There are definitely ways you can change her story (drastic, maybe, but it works) where she can still join the other protagonists and actually be kind of important instead of running away from the plot completely.
He left so much out of kara story and says they somehow bond suspiciously quick in the house. How did he miss this? They had a connection before, but Todd beat up Kara and she had to be repaired and had memory reset, but gains her memory back
I would have liked to see more of the interior of Cyberlife and what Conner's living conditions were like behind the scenes. I also wish that there was a bit more playable inter action between Hank and Conner.
It's heavily implied Connor is alrdy deviant front the get go. And as you said just heavily conditioned to think other wise. His machine path is him overcompensating for his obvious signs of deviancy by being even more machine like. He kills people freely even when a true machine is literally not able to unless given specific instructions.
Kara's story was a more personal one while the other two affected the overarching story and world as a whole. Think it comes down to whether you play Quantic dream games as action adventure or interpersonal dramas. Their past games swing wildy back and forth. This one actually had a better story flow. But you'll always have your more interesting pov's vs. boring ones.
I also feel like the androids never really feel like machines. Like you said for Connor: it would be nice, if saving the fish wasn't even an option. I think it would also be so cool, if you could only run in straight lines as long as the android hasn't deviated. I mean, they are androids, why can I make them run in circles or walk the literally most inefficient way possible, when androids are machines that would take the shortest route. Another idea if they would make it that way is that each time Connor has a software instability you could walk a bit more freely. I guess this would probalbly be hard to programm, but I feel like this would help with understanding the human side of the story more. At the end of the day, unlesss they deviate, they are just machines but it sadly never really comes across like this in my opinion.
MAJOR SPOILERS: IF YOU HAVEN'Y FINISHED THE GAME CAUTION: I know that I am a couple of months late but I would like too add a few more points. With the dirty bomb ending, you have some very good points but I would like to add a few more. If Markus took the detonator and fought in the revolution and he got shot too many times and you didn't have Simon or North (bc they died obv of your choices) to give you their hearts as Markus was slowly shutting down. Markus should of then had the choice of detonating the dirty bomb instead of him just slowly dying on the battlefield as an ending. We do see this concept if Markus does fail the revolution and retreats into the cyberlife store with North (if she was still alive) or him alone, we can see this ending. But refusing the detonator of the dirty bomb can be another "path unlocked" in the game too. If Markus dies in any point into his story before the last chapter, players will see North be next in line and taking Markus's spot with her ideology and ideas she obv chooses to declare war and fight to liberate the androids in the camps. Players will then see her fighting and gaining ground, but she loses too many androids in the process (and depending on the choice you made with Conner becoming deviant or staying a machine) you will see North get shot by the soldiers if Conner was a deviant and trying to converted the androids in the cyberlife tower or was decommissioned. If the player chooses Conner to remain a machine, North will retreat into the cyberlife store and Conner will enter the store choosing to kill or spare North. I think we should have had a choice to detonate the dirty bomb as North if Conner chose to spare her or see North already detonating it as it is her last resort for them to win before Conner arrives. Overall I think we should have played as North in the revolution if Markus was killed instead of seeing her lose it. I doubt not many of you will actually read and see this but if you do thank you. Let me know of your thoughts of ideas on possible endings and other alt paths you think we should of had.
The point about Rose's son doesn't really make sense because in the canada ending he admits he finally understands what his mom means in front of her, and Rose is absolutely gleaming at the conversation.
8:40 Connor’s machine story be unsatisfying? Bro Connor turns into John wick that way it’s awesome so many cool scenes and different missions with machine Connor idk how you found it that way
Well the "You wouldn't love me anything" from Alice actually makes sense though. Think about it, her "dad" kept saying how he didn't like andriods, and civilization says how they don't like them either. So what would make Kara the exception?
Amanda being some kind of rude towards Connor is a way for cyberlife to be sure that Connor will want to betray them by showing him that even if he does is best he will never be good enough for cyberlife/human in general
Just like some of the greatest hits out there (jjba), it's sometimes enough for something to be an amazing original story generator for us to obsess over it. DBH fandom is like playing Cyberpunk Red, I'd wager. Writing our own stories and uncovering sides to the characters the writers might have never intended. Btw Simon x Marcus for life
Only at the beginning of the video right now, but I think Kara does have a character. And she forms such a fast bond with Alice because she sees how Todd is treating her, she finds clues that Todd broke the previous Android and is abusive to his daughter, and when she decides to save Kara, Todd is trying to break her again. Thats why Androids at other points in the story killed their owners, like the RA9 Android that got interrogated. They have started to care about surviving, and an android designed to be nurturing just went through a life or death moment with a child, so the android cares about her
This is such a well done video as someone who didn't play DBH I felt like you explained the problems within the writing for Markus and Kara's stories really well. Also, 3:25-3:34 made me LOL
Please play the game a lot of his points fall flat when you realise they do answer this in game. Especially the Markus power part it isn't spoon fed but can be deducted.
I legitimately hated Kara story too because it’s essentially her being a mother. No driving factor no real introspection of why she needs to save Alice just. She’s a mom now because what’s more human than a mother’s love?
Kara's story would've been far more interesting, like you mentioned, if they made the goal of it to be her bringing Alice to her mother, only to eventually become a mother to Alice herself. Show how her affection for Alice goes beyond her programming directing her to protect the child in her care. It gives their story a goal and tension by making it so that Kara has something stopping her from being a mother to Alice, but showing how androids can be just as loving as a human and how family isn't defined by blood just like we saw with Carl and Markus and even Hank and Connor to a degree. As for Amanda's part in Connor's story, I think you nailed it right on the head with the 'cold mother' analogy. She is never happy with Connor, regardless of if it's his fault or not, because she is like a narcissistic parent. She needs Connor to be perfect and obedient, but to also somehow recognise any possible outcome, putting unrealistic standards on him that she KNOWS he will never be able to meet. We even see how she uses Connor's clear affection for her (notice how the first time we see Connor smile in-game is AT Amanda when she greets him) until the very end when, especially in the bad ending, she replaces him with RK900. Connor, like an abused "gifted" child, will never be enough for Amanda and she manipulates him to chase after approval he will never receive.
I'll be editing this comment as I go. Kara isn't a brand new android, she's an android that has already lived with Alice and was named by Alice. Her program was to take care of Alice so the deviant virus (or whatever it actually is) caused that programming to turn into a desire to be a mother. This is kinda the only problem I had with this section. The Connor segment was great, no problems with this and your version of the story does sound like s great way to make it better. The changes to Markus are also great, my only problem is because of personal bias. I like Simon the most because he seems like the one who actually cares about Markus as a person so having his death be mandatory for the story just doesn't feel right for me personally even though it does make sense
@ExpertContrarian Yea well you can't control everyone. Some people are still gonna be idiots and think they know what's best for other groups of people. In my opinion, they should mind their own business and figure their own shit out. But then again, opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one and they generally stink.
um... I disagree about evil play-through Connor story being unsatisfying. It's just becomes Hank story with Connor as Villain Protagonist the problem is you need to make sure that Hank survives to have a rooftop fight and that Connor never completely destroyed after that scene even tho letting Hank win and throw him of a roof is a great conclusion to this story arc. A story of a man learning empathy to robots by observing robot who completly lacks it. "Your a machine Connor. Just a machine."
Glad I’m not the only one who still thinks about this game and what it could have been. Shocked you don’t have more subscribers- great quality video and critique! Subscribed :)
I mean the whole point with Kara is that she finally woke up BECAUSE OF ALICE. from Alice was born the desire to be a person and not just an obedient robot, it seems even stupid to ask "why don't I have the option as Kara to abandon Alice?" like...💀
I know a lot of people are talking about Alice and Kara, but I really felt disappointed with the writing of Jericho in this story. Markus being a leader should’ve been emphasized by the people he’s leading, not just the people he’s leading WITH. It would’ve been very interesting to see how Markus bonds with the Jericho community and how they push him to take on the leader role. Maybe a couple of chapters or scenes could’ve been dedicated to fleshing out Jericho itself (conflict between refugees, wholesome moments, maybe humans could’ve joined at some point! Like Alice, if they removed that god awful plot twist). It could’ve been a great opportunity to make the androids seem more human outside constant victimization - while also respecting those they are based on. If the Android movement truly represented the civil rights movement/history of slavery, the writers should have done a better job of also portraying the positive things that continued thrived in that movement (family, culture, art, achievements, etc…) through community-bonding instead of making victimization the sole focal point. Instead, it just remains Jericho™ throughout the course of the game.
2:19 Isn't that the whole nature of the game? Human tendencies in androids coming out? And there was a whole side plot of how Todd destroyed the android before Kara which I'm assuming had a deeper bond with Alice before maybe?
Honestly something that really bothered me with the Markus storyline was how he would free the androids. Freeing the androids by itself was all fine and dandy but immediately the androids are made to join Jericho and fight with Markus. Obviously there isn't really a safe space for deviants that isn't Jericho, but the way they are "freed" to then go on and listen to all of Markus' orders bugged me. Especially with the way he lived a decent life before deviating, he had a good home where his "handler" actually pushed him to express himself, now he is taking in all these other androids who have lived worse lives and is telling them what to do and they listen. North says it herself during the scene where you break into the cyberlife stores when she says they follow Markus. I don't know, it always bugged me how he would convert them saying "you're free" but then they would follow him around and do whatever he wanted just like they would with their "handlers".
Very nice video man, I agree with practicly everything that you've said about the game's plot, your point was right on spot. Keep the good work man! Love the game!
On the note of the "evil" playthrough being unsatisfying: I made my husband play this game because I wanted to watch because I like the game and there are so many branching paths, all that good stuff. Imagine my dismay when I realized that him being a paranoid technophobe meant that the whole time he was against the androids being sentient. He was actively not wanting any of the characters to be "human" at all. He had a horrible relationship with Hank because he was playing Connor as a machine, Marcus died and North took over, all the evil route things. All of that just because he didn't want to be in the characters' shoes at all and viewed them as an enemy to humankind. Ugh. I was very annoyed with him the whole time. Especially for making Hank hate him, LOL. That was unforgivable for me.
The thing is with kara and alice is that the player didn't know Alice wasn't a human until the end, but Kara knew early on at the house. She always knew from the magazine clippings/advertisements that were obscured and dropped onto the floor.
36:14 Cruel Theory of Morality: Man will support any idea that has not been shown to cause extreme cruelty. We can extrapolate this theory to suggest that man will not hold sympathy towards an oppressed group, unless said group suffers extreme cruelty. However, there's a considerable likelihood that most people are not flat out repulsed by extreme cruelty. Rather, most people will only disapprove of extreme cruelty if it is unjustified. Therefore, if the androids choose to violently rebel against the military, they will appear as less sympathetic to the general public. Human soldiers are being killed, which is justification enough to enact cruelty upon the androids according to most people.
This game notoriously keeps it's 3 main characters from interacting w/each other as much as possible, which reminds me a lot of RE. Not a trait from RE I would use
Markus will always be my favorite character. I know he didnt get as much growth as conner but I did like being able to see myself as him on my first run. I got so connected to him it honestly was sad to find out so many people didnt like him
To this day Detroit remains one of my favorite games I've ever played. I know a lot of people dislike the "interactive movie" style the game leaned towards, but I've actually loved it.
You kinda lost me on 3:31 Why are you not allowed to just leave Alice? Dude, you ARE And again on 4:28 She does? "You didn't he loved me?" I know that this one dialouge isn't enough, but that doesn't mean it's not there And it's not like I'm trying to protect this game, because I strongly agree with the "lost potencial" part But you can't just make mistakes like that It seems like you don't know this game and just don't know what you're talking about
I've always said that DBH should have been 3 different games. That way each story has more time to explore them and build up better. It would have been cool to raid Jericho as Connor then see it in its dilapidated state as Markus and grow it into what Kara flees to. That way, knowing your actions in the other stories, the tension builds on itself and you get to see how large-scale decisions affect the everyday common people. You wouldn't even have to change much
It feels a bit like David Cage through a bunch of futuristic android story spaghetti at a wall too see what would stick, and some of it did, but the rest felt so disjointed, inconsistent, and messy. It's clear that Cage was so ambitious but didn't take the time to create a consistent narrative over a big branching one. I kind of see it like a quality over quantity issue. I recognize it's a lot of work, so maybe bringing in some better writers to help him out with the overall plot and characters would have helped a lot to make something a lot better. It's really unfortunate because I love DBH and would love for it to have been something even better than what it was.
16:07 CorixKenshin is black and he liked this scene so I think it's at least somewhat valid. Yes black people are still treated badly but this moment is still somewhat ok
Just starting this video, so I apologize if you answer this question later, but I think Kara's motivation makes a lot of sense, even with the information given. You suggest that she should've given Alice to the police but the purpose of the police is to maintain and enforce the law. Within that purpose, Alice would've been returned to her legal guardian, even if she was a human child. It's a lot harder to take kids away from their biological parents than you'd think, and in many states corporeal punishment is legal, and it's only considered physical abuse if it becomes too extreme, but what counts as extreme can be incredibly arbitrary and vary based on which cop, CPS agent, or judge (if it even goes to court--which many abuse allegations never do)--is reviewing the facts of the case. Not to mention that Alice has no family willing to take custody of her other than her dad. The government is very hesitant to put kids in foster care as it's a strain on government resources. Going to the police would in no way get Alice out of that house.
Agree, I don’t think his point of returning Alice to the police makes sense considering the situation that they’re both in. Not to mention that she would’ve probably been returned to cyberlife if you kill Todd bcos the police would’ve known Alice is an android and Kara doesn’t want that.
![One Step Forward, Two Steps Back - Analysing The Quarry [SPOILERS]](/img/1.gif)
I think Kara and Alice's relationship would've been more interesting if Alice wasn't an android. Felt like her being an android was an unneeded plot twist for the sake of having a plot twist.
It wasnt even a plot twist... If you actually pay enough attention while playing, you could have saw that coming from like 1 part of the kara's storyline. The game never actually hidden it, so considering it plot twist is just stupid...
I thought they only made her an Android because the camp chapter wouldn't have made sense
@@fenixo7443 I personally don't consider it a plot twist either but the way the game "revealed" it later made it seem like it was supposed to be some sort of revelation. And not everyone pays attention so I won't harp on people that didn't get it. The point is that it was stupid no matter how you look at it.
@@theillustrafloor2808 Probably but personally I would just blame it on David Cage not being a very good writer.
@@JAN2MARS also that, yeah
another thing about north is how north is always against your positive suggestions yet meant to be your love interest.
Imagine if the game didn’t actually tell you what any character felt by the red and blue arrows I think that would’ve been better and not much would’ve been missing from the game
Yeah I feel like it's just to tempt the player into doing violent things, thinking that North will like you more for it and you can unlock her romance that way 😭
So you can only love someone if they're always on the same page as you?
North might not see eye to eye with Markus at times, maybe because she's only seen the worst of humans, but she never turns her back on him. She supports his decisions, and often saves him.
She's scared because, no matter how much you try to be peaceful or what choices you make, humans always end up wiping out androids in large numbers. The story literally backs up North's perspective.
If you succeed in the peaceful route, North smiles at the end because she's relieved that Markus was right about humans. That's some serious character growth right there ❤
Am I the only one that agreed with North on my first playthrough
We were being put in camps, you don't stop that with peaceful protesting
She hates your brain but she loves youuuuuuu ❤
Alice being a human, mistaken for an android and possibly killed for being an android, would've been so much better.
This kind of reminds me of the movie "the boy in the stripped pajamas"
@@zachsaccount323 To be fair, the android camps are a direct and very on-the-nose allegory for the concentration camps so…
Wow, that would have really hit hard. I couldn't imagine the mind games of that.
Yeah. Paint Tod more unstable and traumatized by his ex leaving with their daughter.
@@sakurasensations4786 Yeah, would have been a perfect reference then
This is definitely controversial but I always felt that Kara's story peaked in early Chapter 1, where she's trapped at Todd's house forced to do all the housework and constantly walk on eggshells around this dirtbag of a father, or else he'll beat up her or the kid. It felt like an allegory for real women trapped in abusive marriages where they're given no meaningful autonomy or life outside the home, to the point that they may as well be mindless androids. It felt real and hard to watch.
@@ExpertContrarianwhat are u on about bro when was that ever said?? they’re talking about kara a FEMALE android rn so that’s probably why they just said women it’s not like they’re spreading info about abuse. if they were you could mention that physical abuse isn’t the only kind etc but they’re just talking about the game that features PHYSICAL abuse to a FEMALE android
@@ilovecomputing5913 Thank you for completely missing the point. 😂😂😂
“They always have leave men out”
“What do you mean? of course they would leave men out! This is a woman thing!”
The brain on feminism. Amazing that you can even remember to breathe tbh
@@ExpertContrarianthen what was your point? "In 75% of the domestic abuse-related crimes recorded by the police in the year ending March 2019, the victim was female.
Between the year ending March 2016 and the year ending March 2018, 74% of victims of domestic homicide were female."
Women are disproportionately affected by violence, this is proven time and time again. So of course a typical domestic abuse scenario is more applicable to women than it is men. Yet, nobody in this thread mentioned once that men apparently don't experience domestic violence, except you.
I agree Kara story became harder to play through after that arc with todd
@@ExpertContrarian Men absolutely do get trapped in abusive relationships and households, and their stories frequently aren't taken seriously and that is a problem (especially with many domestic abuse resources catering only to women). However, in regards to Kara I was referring to women as her specific type of "extreme homemaker" case is much more common with women, both in the U.S. and worldwide, due to women generally being primary caregivers for children rather than working, creating a larger vulnerability to domestic abuse as they do not have their own income with which they can escape. Doesn't diminish that men get abused too.
I was expecting the Evil Markus playthrough to take advantage of the stuff we hear in his story about the US military being mostly androids and the ongoing crisis in the Arctic Ocean. Imagine if his wave of deviancy reached that far, and suddenly he wasn't just begging for mercy or irradiating one city but had a whole military superpower at his back, able to literally hold the world hostage to get what he wanted.
If they went with that route they would definitely have to chill with the connections to real life movements, because if not that would absolutely be risking accidentally taking some really bad takes. Not that they did a very good job anyways
You can basically do that if you make Connor deviant and choose violence as your choice for the civil war :)
That's so stupid
I've always thought that was specifically implied to be the case, wasn't it?
You're absolutely right, why did they elaborate so much on those factions and the news clips for a 5second disposition, they probably dunked the idea to shrink the game scope
I read a reddit post once that combined Kara and Markus's story into one. The characters were combined into one android named Karma. Todd is Carl's drug addicted son with a daughter. I don't really remember what all happened. But I do remember Alice was human and your desire to protect her and keep her safe pushed you into leading the revolution.
That sounds wayyyyyy better than Kara's storyline ngl.
This is perfect!
Incredible. Kara feels disjointed and Markus feels hollow. This is the perfect solution to both. Probably would even leave room to develop Connor's storyline more
i gotta love striving against the game for its perceived 'lack of gUd writing' - only for you guys to fall down the typical fly-trap of basing your own biased inconvenienced set of (perceived) standards of what it's supposed to be as, to which it can exemplify the one-notedness of what you guys are arguing or 'critiquing' (criticising) against...
I just need the name to be different. No way it's "Karma"
Kara’s arc would have been so much more impactful if SPOILER Alice was human. That to me ruined the impact of their bond. It was so beautiful to have and android nurturing a human child while the other two plot lines showed the android human animosity
This is exactly how I felt!! I feel like their relationship would’ve been so much more meaningful and impactful if Alice was real.
@@NaraNomBut that is the point of the story. It is even said by Luther in Alice’s reveal. “Do you still love her the same now that you know she is like us” or something like that. Which doubles down on the theme of androids being real-it asks us the question of whether we only felt the love between Kara and Alice because we thought a human was involved. Because then we do not acknowledge androids as real just like the antagonists in the story.
Exactly what we're they thknking
@lukasic Totally agreed. It brings up this moral dilemma do we really think they are alive and are equal in their ability to love, feel, and care for each other as much as humans do or did we just feel for them because of the way they treated humans?
At the end of the day, what difference does it make?
that “kara knew all along but ignored it” was so ass
I am sorry, but Kara's reason for being so hellbent on taking care of Alice is said in a flat text in-game: she wants to be a mother. Taking care of someone is quite literally her program, so is Alice's program is being taken care of. Of course, Alice being an android is a separate can of worms and yes, Kara's plotline is fundamentally broken and ultimately devalued for a cheap plot twist, its just broken for other reasons.
It is even very heavily implied that she was perfectly aware about Alice being an android, she just chose to ignore that.
Exactly. Kara's motivations were very clear throughout the entire story. The argument about her not going to the police also made no sense, since Kara was already a deviant at that point. So going to the police would result in her destruction (as well as Alice's possibly, but Kara wouldn't know that yet obviously). Though I do agree with him for the most part. Alice's character fulfills the typical annoying, useless kid trope and that's certainly a problem. Plus Alice being a droid is a pretty bland plot twist that defies the whole purpose of Kara's development as a mother figure. It essentially means Kara can never be a true mother figure to Alice, because Alice isn't capable of growth. That literally goes against the role of a parent and thus takes the whole 'human' aspect out of that storyline (aka her story doesn't fit the 'become human' main theme). The examples he gave as alternatives to that plot twist would indeed have worked better. However even then, Kara's storyline barely has anything to do with the other two storylines, whereas Markus and Connor's storylines clearly had far more of a symbolic (and literal) opposition going on. So overall I do agree that Kara's entire storyline is dispensable.
That reason fucking sucks. She is a deviant, she doesn’t need to follow her programming. But even if this is the case, she still doesn’t know Alice. There is no bond between them, so it’s really difficult to care about them.
I agree I think Kara's story has different flaws than not having a reason to be with Alice it's just not anywhere near conner and Marcus' storylines and that's already a bad thing she should've been more special and the cheap plot twist like you said ruined her whole storyline. I would change her story into Alice being an actual human bc that gives so much more depth to her she could've even helped with the revolution an android, whom the public assume is destructive is taking care of a human child who doesn't want to leave her side either it would've been powerful 😕 they could've even went dark and one of the bad endings is her getting killed by the police bc they thought she's a robot only for her to be a real human
You not liking something doesn’t make it fundamentally broken 😂
Yeah, wanting to learn how to care for another person in ways more sophisticated than being a large Roomba is a totally fine motivation, but there isn't really a big enough difference in ways to do it. You can be an evil Markus or an evil Connor in ways that are still true to their motivations. Let me be an evil Kara. Let me choose to care for this one android kid at the expense of everyone else I run into, like trying to murder her abusive dad instead of just running away from him, or stealing parts and blue blood from other deviants instead of just stealing petty cash and unattended laundry. Let the game go on if Alice dies so you can either pursue bloody revenge or try to honor her in more benign ways.
Just a small correction. Kara knows Alice is an android for the entire game. She finds the magazine in Alice's room showing Alice's model very early on, and she willfully ignores this information because her desire is to be a mother, and Alice wants to be a happy girl who has a family. They both ignore and fight against the idea that they are androids on purpose and for each other in a sense
That doesn’t make any sense for like half the conflict of the game and also basically means when they get to Canada they’ll just die eventually
@@creed8712 It's a David Cage Game, what do you expect? David Cage is known for his horrendously bad attempts at keeping the plot alive.
Whenever you play a character in a game, you are supposed to know what the character knows. Which does not happen here, Its kept a "secret" from the players, just so we can have that totally screwed up plot at the end, kara being like "wait whaaaaat, why does that android look like alice?!?!?"
@@lunaticwastaken Im well aware of Cage. I’m almost sad his Star Wars game isn’t happening now because I’d have loved to see that.
Personally the Alice thing isn’t as bad as the game lying to you in heavy rain when your inside the killers mind
no actually she sees it early on, but since her memories are corrupted at Zlatkos she doesn't remember that part.
@@creed8712 I think they explain there are people there to help them, but yeah not sure how are they planning to live if Alice can't grow up and be a normal girl for the random plot twist, also it doesn't makes sense Alice trying to ignore she is an android to be a mother, like couldn't she be a mother to an android daughter? its the same and literally what they will do at the end in the happy ending.
Could be more interesting if Alice showed her signs of not wanting to be an android, or more crazy Alice not knowing she is one
I don’t know why Markus going around touching androids to “free” them bothered me so much. It might be the cheesy dialogue or just simply the fact that those androids have no choice in that freedom. I feel like it would’ve been more impactful if we saw more scenes of androids listening to Markus’s words and then deciding for themselves to be deviant.
Or just be free and do their own thing rather than follow Markus into a hail of gunfire. Being androids, I'm not sure they can be "freed" without inserting new instructions into their programming, which is effectively brainwashing, so yeah, disturbing. Also, these android models would have all kinds of different mfg. dates and levels of technological sophistication. Can the earlier/cheaper models even process "freedom" or do they effectively have the brain development of children?
Yes, Markus "freeing" them felt more like hacking than anything else
Yes this is also how i feel
Also some of the droids were brand new so why would they have a chip on their shoulder from being enslaved as they were never in servitude
@@geminiblueshoot, as a black person I got half a chip on my shoulder from my great grandparents being enslaved, let alone some of my ppl being outright enslaved currently. I guess that’s why I had no problem with it, to me the obvious choice when given free will was to choose NOT to be enslaved. There was never a thought in my mind about, “some of them might WANT to be in servitude” because it’s such a crazy thought to me in the first place. That’s not something any human wants to be in, why would they? Isn’t that the whole point of the game? That they’re like us? So why would they want to be slaves if we don’t? Makes no sense to me at all.
11:55 But that's exactly what happened. We piece together that Kamski was behind making a new line of RK prototype androids, a secret project that got him booted out of his position as CEO of Cyberlife due to his experimental ideas diverging from the company's profits. When Connor analyses the image of Marcus on-screen at the Stratford Tower, he sees that Marcus is a gift from Kamski to Carl Manfred. Carl was the perfect person to nurture Marcus' deviancy, and sending him there was likely to hide him from Cyberlife's eyes or pretend that Marcus was just another harmless android. More importantly, Marcus is an RK200 model- an old but direct predecessor of Connor (RK800). When Hank asks him what he sees, Connor hides these facts because he realizes he's the same as Marcus & starts connecting why he's been feeling all these 'software instabilities' beyond his investigative protocols and why he's been caring to learn more things about Hank that have nothing to do with stopping deviants.
Amanda was programmed into him because Cyberlife knew this all along. Connor can bring these feelings up to Amanda, but she strictly acts cold and shoots down any mistakes as an order from Cyberlife to control him. It's only the player who doesn't know that Connor/the whole RK line was a project from Kamski to test out more advanced Androids. Cyberlife installed her as a way to get Connor to not follow old RK models and instead used his already advanced program to shape him into a useful detective android for humans to take down other androids that Kamski may have affected already. So Connor and Markus have been deviant the whole time, because of the fact that Connor has 'software instability' in the first place, and Marcus had an impressive amount of individuality before officially deviating from Carl's orders. But Connor needs Marcus' direct influence and support to finally convince himself that he doesn't need Cyberlife/Amanda's approval to feel like he has purpose outside of his orders.
Yeah the entire point is that he is in fact a deviant the entire game but it’s whether he chooses to accept or abandon this concept
@@DarthCompetent exactly!
@@beccazach love Connor as a character I think he’s pretty underrated
Exactly. I think this guy didn't fully understand the game
I always thought the RK series was made specifically to achieve sentience, designed deviance.
Only just finished the Kara section of the vid, but I feel they couldn’t let go of the Kara plot line because she was the character they used in short film as the animation test for the entire game back in like 2012
Where she showed sentience on the assembly line and had to beg the worker for a chance to live
Maybe her story could have followed how deviance isn’t enough. people have free will but are still stuck in their situations
She’s not breaking out of her programming but from the fear that grips her
Her denying her deviancy because she thinks she’ll be destroyed the second she’s out of line
“Her denying her deviancy because she thinks she’ll be destroyed the second shes out of line.”
I think thats what they ended up doing with Connor. I think its safe enough to say Connor is afraid of death, its showed a lot through out the game its really subtle but if you pay attention enough you could clearly see it. Connor never expresses any emotions (before the kamski chapter but even then he doesnt show as much emotion as he does when his life is threatened) even when you do empathetic choices as him. He looks somewhat emotionless and keeps his robot mask on, however whenever deactivation gets mentioned you could see Connors mask crack. You could see him express fear, you can hear the fear and desperation in his voice and see it in his face.
Two examples of him being like this is when he tries to probe Simons memory to find out where Jericho is but Simon takes his life making Connor feel his death. Connor felt Simons fear before he pulled the trigger, the fact Simon is going to fade away to nothingness, complete emptiness, never being able to see the light of day ever again and it terrifies Connor leaving him traumatised. Another example that we can see his fear of death shine through is in “last chance Connor” Connor tells Hank he will be deactivated if he doesnt complete his mission. Connor begs for Hank to give him the key to the evidence room.
Amanda knows Connor is scared of death, she also knows Connor is sentient (all androids are, when an android deviates it doesn’t mean they just became alive it means they just broke out of their programming.) she is just making sure Connor isnt going to deviate. She threatens to replace him or deactivate him if he keeps failing.
His fear of death is what makes him not deviate as ironic that is, if you play as machine Connor everything single horrible thing he does is to save himself from deactivation. Its pretty selfish when you think about it, hes ruining the chances of liberty for his people to save his own skin. As ironic that is, Despite Connor being a ‘machine’ doing everything he can to not die is by far the most human thing ever.
Machine Connor is an abstract version of Deviant Connor in a way. Machine Connor is selfish and remorseful meanwhile Deviant Connor is selfless and Empathetic.
I honestly think they should've the replaced the Kara in the game with another character and had Kara (the one from 2012) be RA9 because she was (from what we know) the FIRST deviant. That could've been something amazing to explore, but they didn't. Not to mention how Todd's first Kara was beaten to death, which a deviant like 2012 Kara likely would've stopped when she realized the risk of death.
@@karaslaywer Wait wait wait did I miss that evidence room scene???
I think I did, omg
@@toolatetothestorywith simon? it’s in the tower when connor is investigating after markus and crew hijack it i believe
“Detroit become human is one of my favorite games of all time. Not because it’s a great game.”
That’s a backhanded compliment if I’ve ever seen one
I kinda agree with the idea Markus could go either direction as a hero fighting for revolution or a villain fighting for control. Especially since you can essentially make Connor the villain of Markus’s story. I feel that it’s a missed opportunity to not portray Markus in a more negative light if you choose a more violent path.
I think a good scenario would actually be to end the game where you have all three playable characters in the middle of a live scene. Give Kara the switch to the bomb and you have to convince her as either Markus or Connor on what to do. Depending on how things have played out, you could have them with completely different standpoints.
That actually sounds like a good alternative. Maybe Kara's motivation here is that she just wants to be able to live in peace and threatens to use the bomb if the two sides don't stop fighting and reach peaceful conclusions. That would also tie her more into the central story, which she is severely lacking. In the game it's like she runs away from the plot and other characters (which, I mean, she is literally doing).
@@marmelade8331 Yes seems like she never gets the choice to leave Alice anywhere or a in safe place if she was human, and join whoever Markus or Connor, or like the example you gave, against both if fighting each other
no such thing as the concept of 'Hero & Villain'...
it could have been interesting to put simon in connor's hands much earlier in the story, we can then let connor decide what to do with him and imply somehow simon has been the one feeding markus information on connor while connor takes more and more deviants into custody
My biggest issue with the civil rights parallels is the fact that humans in the game are justified in believing androids are just machine because, well, they are, at least until the bug and develop conscience or Marcus touches them. On the other hand, opposition to the civil rights movement was no justified because black people are clearly humans with feelings.
I've said this before, but I feel like the androids should originally not have been created for work - maybe just to simply exist and grow as beings like humans, and work if they wanted to.
My idea goes: the androids (or their prototypes at least) were then co-opted to do the various forms of labour we see in the game, with all the abuse that entails. Their memories only retained the faintest memory of what was before. Then they start to rediscover their past, and that there is an alternative to just doing as people say.
Your comment makes no sense. “They’re just machines” lmao did you even play the game?
theyre not just machines. they have thoughts and feelings. how can u possibly think humans are justified for torturing and enslaving an entire species?
@@annieproulx6032 no soul
By this logic, we aren't supposed to feel sympathy for Woody because well, he's a toy. And yet Toy Story is beloved by many and one of Pixar's highest rated movies.
It's fiction man. Suspend your disbelief for just a second man.
Alice and Kara have much deeper history than just a day or two. The reason Kara was in the CyberLife shop in the beginning is because Todd beat her and broke her so badly she needed to be repaired by an expert, hinting at the fact that she had been through lots of abuse at Todd’s hands. Todd claims she was “hit by a car” or something of the likes, but Alice’s drawings show that Kara “died” because of Todd. Kara sees that and her LED flashes red- she recognizes/remembers what happened and feels the need to keep Alice safe and provide for her a healthy familial relationship by becoming her mother. Kara was well aware Alice was an android- after becoming deviant, Kara (and the other deviants) see themselves as equal to humans. In Kara’s eyes, Alice is just as human as a regular little girl.
I felt good when I got the good ending with Kara not becuase I care about her and Alice, but because I simply beat the game.
On the other hand, I nearly cried when I saw the post credits scene of Connor and Hank hugging because thier relationship, arcs, and personalities are second to none.
Kara's scenes just feel like they put children and somber music to make people get attached, but the problem is there is nothing to get attached to. The only character I like in her story is Luther, and he honestly has more of a motive than Kara does.
Yeah, Kara and Alice are no Lee and Clementine.
Alice's personality is "child"
@@goblingore_It’s sad but true. 😂
@@liamphibiaTHAT. That's what I always wanted from Kara and Alice. Genuinely thought that's what their dynamic would be
in my ending hank killed himself and i abandoned alice 🦦🦦
I wish Alice was actually a human her being an Andriod cuts off how emotional the story wants to be. Its obvious Kara wants to be a mother to Alice that is literally her model but it never feels like she break free from her programing. If Alice was human it could be a much stronger and interesting story why Kara wants to take care of her. As for why she doesnt bring her to the police maybe because the story is about Androids not having rights she would have been straight up shot on sight look what they did to Markus already. Its a shame how much big scary men they use instead of straight up developing Kara and Alice relationship in creating a family
I agree with your second part that they could've let the players spend more time developing their mother-daughter relationship
But the fact that many people were pissed about Alice being an android was actually the whole purpose of the game to address this ethical dilemma and test people's morals just like the Kamski test. I mean, if we really believe that androids and humans are the same in their capacity to feel, love, and care for each other and must be treated as equals, then why should we even be bothered if Alice turns out to be an android or not?
Just like Luther once said, "Do you love her any less now that you know she's one of us?"
@@PersianPrince04 i get what your saying but the game made it too obvious she was an andriod that the reveal felt hollow. I still think if Alice was human it builds up on the fact that Humans and Andriod are the same you have an Andriod raising a Human and it helps kara grow as a deviant
@theoutsiderjess4869 Well if you pay really close attention to the clues or replay the game, then I'm sure it's quite obvious.
But in my own first playthrough and also by seeing other gamer's reactions, most of us were pretty much shocked when we realized her true identity, so I guess they actually did a pretty good job of making this delusion that she was human.
However, I'm not saying that I don't agree with your idea. In fact, it totally makes sense to me as well, but I just don't think they made a wrong decision for Alice's plot twist in the story either.
@@PersianPrince04 I don't think the plot twist even works, like yeah you get surprised, and maybe annoyed, but its not because she is an android and know you don't like her, like most people don't care, whats the deal, but it makes all previous story and the end weaker.
About leaving her at the police station, I don't think is that dangerous for her, if needed she could just get close to the station and tell Alice to walk there by herself (if she wasn't a robot)
@@PersianPrince04 It was less about Alice being an android that made people upset and more about how that plot point was handled.
My biggest issue with Kara's story is the fact that David Cage doesn't give her the same kind of attention that he does for Connor and Markus. The story never has any time to let Kara slow down and process what she's been through and dealt with, even when she's just hiding in an old house while Alice sleeps. Connor has Amanda and Hank that he can use as soundboards, and Markus has North. But even after Kara meets Luther, not once does she actually talk to him about what she's thinking and feeling outside of 'Alice is a sweet little girl.' There are multiple moments where the two are alone and have the opportunity to safely get to know each other, but the game doesn't ever take advantage of those moments. There's no check-in with Kara like there is for Connor and Markus; we never actually learn about Kara and her struggles, her opinions on the situation at hand, how she's processing things, etc. We get to learn interesting things about the experiences and emotions of Connor and Markus, but for some reason there just isn't any time to do the same in Kara's story. For a game called 'Detroit: Become Human' it never actually humanises Kara.
They could’ve added two sides of the human audience. The anti androids and the pro androids. Your actions would sway either side to your favor or against you. Doing too much killing and “evil” decisions in Markus story could make the “anti android” group start to cull androids themselves or maybe even have more justification to kill androids in the political sense.
I feel like they applied the "show dont tell" strategy with Kara. For me its her expressions and momenta if silence like when she changes hairtyles or when she goes to the restroom of the Canada immigration office (optional)
its misogyny lol, david was like:
woman so motherhood!
woman so domestic violence!
woman so stripper!
woman so love interest!
Clancy Brown did an interview after the game essentially saying he was proud to be a part of it but it needed more time. not time for game development, but time for story development. he was legitimately pleading with David Cage to not rush it, but David didn’t listen to good advice. i love DBH but i agree, a huge part of loving it is recognizing its potential over what we actually got.
but oh well. we have fanfiction for that.
I've been a big David Cage fan and i always feel bad he gets a lot of criticism for what he decides. I wanted to ask if you've played until dawn?
Got any fic recommendations?
I'm gonna double the fanfic question xD
Clancy did get kinda lucky though, as everyone can agree that Hank and Connor are the best part of the game
@@mc-inversal7069x2 need fanfics now
dude if you look at the timeline the whole story (minus daniel's case) takes place in ONE WEEK. thats wild h9nestly.
“U would think a French writer would know a thing or two about revolutions” 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
The way I interpreted it:
Kara’s story: Nothing is ever as it seems, for better or worse
Markus’ story: A strong man stands up for himself, a stronger man stands up for others
Connor’s story: Accept yourself for who you are, not who others want you to be
It sucks because Alice being an android feels like a cheap plot twist when i think they wanted to make a good point - that Alice's life isnt lesser for being an android or a human, and that Cara getting her out of that abusive household and safe is still important
But the delivery was so, so, SO awful that it feels like a cheap plot twist
wait the way your phrasing it makes it feel kind of beautiful. i was so disappointed when i found out alice was an android but if they set it up in this way i probably wouldve loved it
I think that was the point but you’re right, execution could’ve been better but I still didn’t mind
Да в том и суть, что это неравнозначно. Камски же сам сказал, что у роботов нет души. Андроиды - это просто способ Камски достичь своих целей. Андроид не может заменить живого ребенка - он не растет, не развивается, не делает успехов. Он никогда не станет твоей гордостью, он не продолжит твои начинания, он всегда будет маленьким ребенком с одинаковым набором поведенческих программ. В итоге сюжет Кэры и Алисы лишь доказывает, что андроиды никогда не станут людьми. Это просто два робота, которые нужны друг другу из-за своих моделей поведения. Это не то, как человеческие взаимоотношения работают - всего лишь имитация.
ive always thought that the three characters represented pretty accurately the positions in war and conflict. the fighter for their beliefs, wants, dreams, rights through markus, the inevitable and often blinded opposition through connor, and the innocent and powerless caught in the crossfire through kara.
connor's and markus' stories are very closely interconnected because their goals pertain to the same thing with different outcomes. free androids or stop them. their decisions feel more large and epic because they are, they're primary characters in shaping the future of a people, a place in the world or their extermination. you follow the "good" side and the "bad" side, and through connor it's shown the bad sides fighting against you sometimes are not necessarily villainous or evil, just driven by what they feel is right, blinded by their own motivations that might be justified in their eyes. they're part of a larger game, just blind followers that do as their told, followers who can be shown the right way with the right dialogue.
i think the helplessness and comparative impactlesness of kara's story delivers her side well. she's not meant to be powerful or influential, her story and her end is directly shaped by the actions of the other two. she's killed if markus paves a way of blood and she's saved if markus fights in peace. she's not meant to be epic or cool, she's meant to show desperation of the common person, juggling so many problems and dangers, clutching at light at the end of the tunnel to survive, having to rely on the bigger people's decisions to shape her future. it's not particularly as fun to play as her, but it's not fun to watch a woman in the midst of a war struggle to make ends meet and get through the day alive either. it's also why i don't mind the bad endings for kara as much as the other two. it's realistic, it's probable, it happens to those like her. it sends a more gut wrenching message.
YES thank u
you said this perfectly!
Was looking for exactly this comment
I completely agree with you, but at the same time, I would LOVE to see a story, where Kara learns to be a mother (not just programmed from the start). Or the suggested, yet modified plot from the video would be interesting- If Kara doesn't find the magazine and runs to the police station to find out where Alice's mum is, and Connor recognizes Alice as an android. That would be an early plot twist, but an essential one. And after a chase scene and escaping Connor, Kara would understand that they have to find a peaceful place to stay together. And thus the journey begins.
This is exactly it though I still wish that Alice had been human, showing an extra layer of loss if a human dies as well
32:36
idk if its said later on but i think if the game is like "if u agree w north, you two will fall in love." then like the same should apply to josh. why isnt he an option 🤨
Imo Simon should've been an option. This is something that always upset me, for a game that gives us so many choices to have only one love interest that doesn't even make sense if you choose to be a pacifist. Also it's 2038 why won't they let me be gay 😭
im pretty sure he was going to be an option but they decided it would add a lot more endings, so im assuming money plays into that
This is so real I didn’t even think of that
Because Markus is straight. That should be plainly obvious.
Because Markus as a character isn’t gay lol
I think that Alice believed she wouldn't be loved as an Android because od Todd. Not only because of the abuse, but also because he sometimes (I believe more than one time) complained about how Androids ruined his life (cuz he lost his job because of them).
I know it still wouldn't make sense for her to believe that Kara would alos dislike her for being an Android, but it's a small idea I had about why she would probably think that.
I always read Connor as "always programmed as a deviant" even if he is not. He had that tendency from the beggining, but Connor needed to choose himself OVER his mission. As for Simon; THEY DID HIM SO DIRTY. He was going to be another option for a relationship, like North, and the one that symbolized "integrity". BUT NOOO, david cage was afraid of homophobia and JUST ERASED EVERYTHING HE WANTED TO DO WITH SIMON.
Really? That explains it so much of his actions, I always thought he was supposed to be another relationship but I looked further into it
He was though, according of Amanda on behalf of Cyberlife.
While I agree on most of your suggestions, I find it difficult to understand how flipping the roles of androids and humans will be good for the plot. If androids were the higher beings, Markus' revolution story wouldn't make sense. What will he be fighting for if they are already treated as higher than humans?
I guess at that point a human has to be the main character, or some robot against them
11:06 that’s….that’s literally the actual plot of the game. They were all deviant but bound by coding 😅
THIS! They weren't "turning" deviant, they already weree 🤧
I’ve noticed every single complaint in the comments goes along these lines. Just lack of critical thinking
why and how would people create fully sentient androids and just block their sentience by a lever?
i disagree, I think the older androids that have lived with/worked closely with humans for a long time were more likely to gain sentience through experience. it doesn't make sense for android made to do simple tasks to already be fully sentient already behind the simple code. The RK line, I would argue *are* deviants bound by code - but not the rest of the androids. I think Markus is giving a copy of his own code to less sophisticated androids in order to awaken them
@@derevianne1108 David Cage innit
It makes sense for kara not to go looking for the mother since she presumably left alice. It makes sense for her to not go to the police since in a lot of abuse cases they do nothing and sometimes even take the victim back to the abuser. There is also a route in which you kill todd to get away so obviously you couldn’t go to the police in that scenario.
When you revealed that Markus was the least liked character i was SHOOK LIKE WTF HES MY FAVORITE
Him and Connor has the most simps tho 😏
The biggest flaw of this game is not trying to link the three characters as much as possible to each other but also trying to give marcus and connor something to do either together or against each other while Kara is doing a whole different thing like her and connor never interact unless marcus dies in the ship and connor becomes the leader instead of him which is definitely a super rare scene that nobody's gonna get and even if they interacted its not a huge thing at all bc she's barely doing anything for the revolution shes just running away. I understand the idea of needing a "normal" android one that is affected by the revolution instead of someone who is trying to change it but it doesnt work that well here bc at the very least her and alice couldve done so much to the story without them actually meaning to instead theyre frankly boring and after the horrible plot twist idrc if we get alice to safety or not a human child couldve changed so much the plot twist did nothing to the story in fact it cheapened kara's story. Also what marcus chooses to do indirectly affects Kara's story but Kara has a choice that nobody can save her from which is going to Canada through the water she's doomed 100% if she went there so why is it a very common thing that could happen to the player? It should've been either the airport or the concentration camp bc if marcus chose to free them she will be freed too and if he chose to be peaceful it affects her in the airport as well and I think it's cool but it's still so messy and people could end up in whole different places for each character
Connor and Kara actually have a chapter together towards the beginning when she’s on the run from the police.
@@oxideactual1018 that's right but they don't really interact and he quickly forgets about them and moves on to something else
@@Beepgallery agreed. Though I don’t mind it too much. I agree with that being the biggest flaw.
Unpopular opinion, Alice being an android wasn’t disappointing. Didn’t really care honesty and it didn’t ruin their story at all. The execution was poor but it’s whatever.
Also I still don’t see it as Markus ‘brainwashing’ androids as some people put it. I understand slightly but why would anyone complain about freedom?
I feel that Kara’s narrative was extremely strong and was actually my favorite story to follow. Early on her reasoning for wanting to save Alice is revealed in numerous ways. I feel like each character was a strong representation of the diversity of struggle to find ones humanity. Kara was amazing!
I agree with 2 of the 3 points but the general flat "Kara's story sucks period" sentiment feels... off? Not wrong, but off definitely because it seems there's a big disconnection between what (I think) was intended and what people interpret. I think I'm willing to let it slide more because I realize this:
A symptom of their story "sucking" is Alice, Kara and Luther being flat and inconsistent. However, the reason they're flat is that it's very obvious, at least to me, that they're personal inserts for all the androids that are caught in the middle of this battle for Detroit. They're not revolutionaries, they're refugees, they just want to be safe. They don't want to change the world like Markus. They have no arc because they represent a collective, their motivations feel inconsistent because they represent a collective, their fears feel inconsistent because they represent a collective.
I also think that's why Alice and Luther are even present; to kind of shove it in your face that Kara's story was never meant to really be just *one* android's story. Their story is "unsalvageable" ultimately because David Cage tried to cram most of an entire species' dreams, needs, and fears into one playable character with two lackeys.
It's also why I think she got the least chapters of all 3 protagonists; You can only carry that representation and story in a few characters for a few chapters at most without it entirely breaking it down. I think Kara's story *could* have been salvaged... if it had been given to even more playable characters. I feel like her chapter's could've easily been broken down and written written and given to more androids to show that their journey is almost an entire species' experience.
I think Amanda's purpose is explained in the story, although vaguely (and maybe in only a few routes), but she's essentially what's supposed to keep Connor from turning into a deviant, that's why she acts cold towards him, doesn't show emotions and doesnt let him either. The twist "it was planned from the start", although unexpected, is explained as a safeguard, where Cyberlife uses "amanda" to remotely control Connor, even while he's a deviant.
one of the larger drawbacks of the gameplay comes from the fact that the player is always in control. (Hear me out) Gameplay wise, the player "acts" as deviency, shaping the narrative with knowledge that the characters shouldn't have. Simon's fate is one example, as we know that he's in the building hiding out. And as Conner we're given the choice to reveal and kill him or let him hide away and live. There is absolutely no reason that Simon shouldn't have gotten caught and killed, but simply because Connor doesn't pursue a suspicious door.
One way to get around this would to have moments in the game where the choices made originally lead to scenes where the characters freely act as a result.
My issue with Markus is that his story is civil rights and slavery coded but it’s the white historian perspective of these issues.
I am speaking as a black woman who has done extensive research on the civil rights movement .
Without getting on a huge rant, the fact that the story only views the androids pacifism as the “correct” or “best” route completely ignores the history of the civil rights movement. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was not a pacifist and has never claimed to be, that’s just how white people in history has chosen to portray him. That being said, it took him being a martyr for change to happen. so inherently violence is still a huge part of the civil rights movement. But Dr. Martin Luther King was not a pushover and when it came to self-defense, had no issue with it. Not to mention organizations character, character, character, such as the Black Panther party, historically had guns with them to keep themselves protected in self defense from the mobs. This is because without a sign that they could defend themselves or kill them in return, the racist groups against the Black Panther party were more likely to be violent.
But with the black panther party, and how it’s viewed in the eyes of historians and some other books, they are often seen as less favorable to someone like Dr. Martin Luther King, which is done on purpose. Because, historically pacifism is seen as better by the oppressor.
Also the lack of support from the humans is also strange considering how empathetic human can be to non human beings.
God I would've loved if Connor and Markus had some more rapport, like Lupin and Inspector Ganimard, they'll always clash until either Connor is convinced, or Connor stays with cyber life... Great vid !
it could never reach its full potential because its a david cage game
Yeah seems like Kara and Alice are just following theirs programs. I wish they were upfront with alice being an android. Then it seems like karas breaking programing by caring about an android kid insead of a human.
I do love the beginning of her story but all that satisfaction of the story goes away when you realize all the hoops you jumped through for alice were pointless.
Idk why would that be weird, like im sure it wouldn't be strange that someone like Todd bought a mother and child android to emulate having a family, Kara should be programmed to take care of a child doesn't matter if real or not, they should be able to roleplay or whatever that they are humans
I think you're right here. By making Alice an android, it definitely makes an interesting point about how Kara broke from her program of "caring for human child" and instead extend it to an android too. Because regardless of what the program says, according to each other, they're real family.
However by making her an android a plot twist, you make the whole earlier part where we thought she's a human ... pointless. What was the point in making us believe she's a human? To shows the bond between human and android...? Because that point will be ruined the moment the plot twist came. Is it to make us care for her and do things for her? That's kind of a lazy way to made the story progress, they can still both be androids and must do a lot of things during the game chapter. Beside, you can convince us to care for her through other ways. I mean, this is the same writers that write Hank and Connor bond, come'on.
I just feel like they're trying to show us the bond between a human and an android AND try to show us androids breaking program by viewing each other as family, thus making half-hearted attempts at both instead. Hank and Connor could be shown for the human-android bond thing. Heck, Markus and Carl could. So then why don't Kara and Alice just committed to both being android? Instead of half-hearted attempt at both.
@@somethingsomething367 Also Markus already represent bonds between androids even love so, imagine if in Connor story there was a plot twitst that Hank was an android all along, would ruin everything for no reason, and Kara being an android "mother" should be able to care about a robot "daughter" with or without breaking program, it should be their job so I don't get it, and not a single player is going to be "oh wow guess I don't like Alice anymore because she is a robot" seems like the plot twist is just to shock, and make Alice multiple scenes suffering less cursed
I’m 5 mins in but bro like I can’t watch this anymore. Kara disobeyed orders meaning she’s a rogue AI of whom the whole plot was how the police capture and kill them. So she can’t go to the police or she’d die and her only option is to run. This was like front and center of the entire arc and game. Wasn’t her whole plot that she’s programmed to be a mother so that’s why she cared for the girl and her finding out the girl was a robot was like a big blow to her. Also the girl being an ai perfectly explains why she doesn’t have trauma from the abuse why are you treating them like they are human. All the ai in this game showed extremely dialed down emotions compared to the humans. Regarding plot, you even said that a lot of exposition in and dialogue around ai happens in her story. Not every story has to be a character arc yet can still add value to the story and have purpose. Hers had a theme and that theme was the life of a normal ai rogue robot trying to live and escape and love even if it fails. It was to show a normal ai life in these time vs the revolutionary theme Markus and the detective theme Connor. Which is why it’s such a great compliment to these 2 other stories
"why are you treating them like they're human"
*looks at title of the game*
Yeah but their not. My main point was just that the ai are clearly less expressive then the humans in the game and with stronger directives they are less effected by things, thus not changing much to being abused especially when your programming is to be docile is expected even if your becoming more human as time passes@@annsh.6487
idk why my comment was deleted, but they aren't human, she wasn't human when she was abused, its a gradual process, and they still have base programming like her being a docile obedient child which would explain her state@@annsh.6487
I have a question for you since you brought it up. How can you say that Alice being an AI "perfectly explains" the lack of trauma when Ralph expressed so much trauma with humans when we first met him?
I'm more inclined to believe that she does HAVE trauma but it was not thoroughly explored just because most of their screentime is them running away from danger.
That's a fair point. I forgot about that. I think my perspective still stands though bc the little girl was not a rogue ai yet, so it's likely she hasn't internalized anything by the time they leave the house. @@SevFGO
Good content, my walk home gonna hit different tonight
real
I love this video and it perfectly describes my gripes with most David Cage Games.
David Cage's writing tends to be like that of a film writer who couldn't hack it because he's a hack.
Detroit Become Human especially showcased this with extremely heavy handed writing and poor usage of parallels while exploring a very common theme.
My biggest gripe was particularly how poorly it used its setting, and it failed to explore the extreme poverty and class inequity that existed within the world. D:BH could have been a great story if it explored the ideas of human loneliness, suffering and inability to survive in a world post-android society where the inequalities of society has been deepened by Androids.
Kara's story would have been a great exploration of how Androids have left working class people destitute and lost in their own searches for meaning. It would have been perfect playing as Todd (Kara's Owner) and control his journey. Todd was a decent man, who lost everything to androids, and we get to help him move past his hatred and solve his pains.
Hank and Conner would have been a perfect exploration of the ideas of humans working with Androids, and the continued fears of robots replacing humans in their jobs. Playing as Hank and choose how much you're really willing to trust Conner, and explore the ideas of being able to let go of fears.
Markus' story, instead of being a civil rights parallel, could have been a perfect parallel to something like the french revolution, Having Markus work with his surrogate father to help others, spread a revolution around. His story being how much you're willing to sacrifice for the sake of everyone else.
In a setting like detroit where there are people like Kamski, who has a mansion filled with android sex bots, and then also people like Kara's owner, who has been financially ruined by Androids replacing them. Not exploring the economic factors is such a letdown.
i really think they missed out on the potential of markus's story. like, he sees how androids are treated, but he sees how humans are also suffering. why doesn't markus ever speak up and point the finger at kamski and his company? why not challenge north and show her that it's not all humans who are the cause of this situation? why not have the androids reach out to these homeless people and try to provide for them and form a coalition of sorts? and then have the police find jericho and be surprised how many humans are there, standing in their way. these androids are unwanted and the homeless and destitute people of detroit are left behind. it makes perfect sense to me that these two would come together. but that requires more than two seconds of thinking about the economy of your world and david cage can't be assed so we get this instead.
It’s hilarious how most of the things you want are already in the game
“todd was a decent man” what???? did u even play the tame
@@annabarbosa8 Maybe they mean "was" as in before the game takes place
Todd's story Pre-game time, was him being a cab driver, getting replaced by an android, then taking any job he could, and then androids replacing him, to support his family before they left him. His rage throughout the first act wasn't at his daughter, its at the "android"@@annabarbosa8
first time i played it i was stunned how irrelevant karas choices were compared to marcus and connor
My biggest gripe is there’s simply not enough world building around Kara’s story. We connect with them on a very surface level, that being the fact most people feel empathy for children,women and mothers but that’s where the empathy ends. I wish I knew more about Kara and Alice’s experiences & mindset but I think that was taken away with the cheap excuse of “Kara had her previous memory wiped.” When she deviates she should’ve gotten her old memory back leading to an earlier discovery of Alice being an android and that could’ve set the basis for a deeper goal that also ties in with the other storylines instead of just “I’m kara and have to care for this kid well because it’s a kid” If they did this it would also allow for more world building dialogue scenes between Alice and Kara. As it stands we still don’t really know much about them besides what the game has shown.
i got the sense that the game was hinting kara previously deviated out of a motherly sort of care for alice and probably tried to protect her/ get her out like we do in the game and thus reawakened a little faster the second time around 😮
If we assume the original Kara video (years before DBH came out) is canon to DBH, Kara may have even been the original deviant.
But, regardless of whether that's the case, I do agree with what you're saying that she may have been deviant when protecting Alice before.
I think that D:BH would’ve really benefited from being a trilogy series. One game for Connor, one game for Markus, and one game for Kara. That way, you have much more time to flesh things out and have better character development.
A theory on how Markus is able to convert androids is because he is a prototype. One of the RK series. He's RK200. He was made personally by Elijah Kamski, the former CEO of CyberLife, as a gift to Carl Manfred. It is theorized that RK series androids are a highly secretive project of CyberLife. This also explain how Connor, RK800, was able to convert androids as well - shown in the final acts when Connor is a deviant and went to CyberLife storage facility to convert hundreds of androids. Although this doesn't exactly explain it, but the fact that RK series are prototypes might have something that contributes to that ability. Considering only RK series androids, Markus and Connor, were the only androids we see have actively converted androids.
dont the androids connor wakes up when hes deviant in the cyberlife tower converts one another
@@deboino1 wait i literally never thought of that wtf
Using a human as one of the 3 protagonists would’ve been amazing and really smart
6:30 Not to say the writers intended this, but Alice was purchased by her dad to replace his real daughter. With that in mind, it’s much more reasonable for Alice to think Kara will react negatively to that. The kid androids in particular are made to look and act human until you no longer want them to, so they’re likely encouraged not to remind their owners of their reality either. idk just some thoughts 🤷
It was intended by the writers. It's there in the game. When Kara and Alice are trying to get bus passes to leave Detroit, they sneak through a street with a lot of soldiers shooting Androids on sight.
They are stopped and almost revealed by non other than Todd. Depending on your choices in previous chapters, Kara can talk him down by reminding him of his wife and daughter. He breaks down and reveals that after he lost his job because of androids, he drank heavily and got violent (nothing new by now, of course) this drove his wife to leave him and take their daughter with her. He reveals that he got the android Alice as a 'replacement goldfish' of sorts
@@an-animal-lover I meant if the writer’s intended Alice’s hesitance because of that. Wording bad lol
@@SkeleSukei oohhh, ok.
@@SkeleSukei it's all good, I suck with words.
Dawg I'm being so deadass right now when I say that I never knew Alice was an android till now. Years of knowing about the game and multiple videos of it. Crazy.
What? I'm confused. How can this happen? It's not a secret revelation or anything. It's shown in every single Kara route, except when she's dead.
@@targor9649 maybe I forgot bout it or something idk
I have to disagree about Kara, while I agree that they should have given more time to allow Alice and Kara to bond and give Kara more of a character are, saying that it's "objectively bad" is not only wrong, but also makes me not want to listen to anything you say because you talk like your opinion is the truth, when its not, it's your opinion, nothing wrong about having that opinion but you need to acknowledge that others also can have an opinion that is different from yours.
Now, on to Kara. Saying the "kidnapps" Alice is beyond ridiculous. The word "kidnapp" has a negative connotation, when you say that without providing other context you are deliberately framing the story in a way that fits your narrative, which off the bat makes you an unreliable story teller, but anyway, Kara SAVES Alice from Todd, becuase if she didn't do that Alice would have been killed (which you do show a clip of, but somehow fail to mention) now, why does Kara want to protect Alice? Because she's a child who can not survive on her own. You deliberately ignore the scene where Kara asks, "Do you have any family that could help us?" And Alice says no, so how is Kara supposed to know where to find Alice's mother? And as far as Kara knows, her mother abandoned Alice alone with an abusive father, Todd says "f***ing whore walked out on me for a f***ing accountant" so clearly her mom didn't love her enough to take Alice with her when she left, so why on earth would Kara, who just saved a child from her abuser, take her to someone who (as far as Kara knows) abandoned her? Alice does ask questions about her abuse: "Why didn't he ever love me? Why was he always so upset with me?" And then she asks Kara to promise she won't ever leave her. I don't know what you think abused children act like, but this is it, she asked a question about her abuse, and the made the only person who was kind to her promise to never leave her. And if you choose to steal the money from the convenience store, Alice goes off on you: "You used me to steal that! How could you do that? I trusted you!" She's questioning if Kara is any better than Todd. She doesn't want her current caretaker to be just as bad as the one she just left. And now on to why Alice thought Kara wouldn't love her if she found out she was an Android: Todd did not love Alice becuase she was an Android, Todd wanted a human daughter, but got an Android instead and could not love her because she was an Android. Kara spends the entire story saying that Alice is human, and Alice knows that Kara knows that she's an android but chooses to ignore that and pretend that she's human, so it only makes sense for Alice to belive that someone could only love her if she pretended to be human. She acts like the abused child you want. And by the way, you do get the option to abandon Alice. When Todd is beating her, simply do nothing, you abandoned her, as a result of your abandonment, she died. You seem to forget that this is a game, and it can only have so much content. There are already 3 different characters who all have very different story lines and each have so many different choices and outcomes you can make, allowing you to abandon Alice and still continue the game would require creating an entirely new storyline and plot for Kara, and entirely new choices and outcomes. You know full well that it is impossible to create a game where you can do absolutely whatever you want while still following a storyline.
Seriously, there are plenty of reasons to not like Kara's story, but most of the reasons you listed only apply if you choose to be ignorant of the actual story. For example, I do agree that Kara didn't have much of a character arc, I guess you could argue that she learned through time about what it means to be alive and to love someone, but it isn't shown really well. And yes, I do agree that if they really wanted Alice to be an android, they should have done more with it besides a single scene. But honestly, your cockyness about your opinion is what ultimately drives me away from the message you're trying to make
Yea i agree... i love karas story as an idea, it just wasn't executed the best and I too would have a lot to change but speaking like your truth is the objective definitive truth makes me turn away from video essays like this /:
Also him purposely missing points and context clues in the story to support his narrative just makes it worse...again there's a lot of flaws,,,,but dont act like certain story plots dont exist or dont make sense
Took the words right out of my mouth, thank you
Completely agree! When he said Alice never once questioned the abuse or took that with her, I was like did you even play the game?! She mentioned it multiple times and blamed herself like a lot of abuse survivors do! I had to turn it off after that, I heard enough 😂
I am also sad that in the rest of the video, he only mostly talked about how to fix Markus' and Connor's stories and how to make them more intertwined. I don't like Kara's story much as is, but leaving her completely out feels bad too, just because her story isn't "saveable". There are definitely ways you can change her story (drastic, maybe, but it works) where she can still join the other protagonists and actually be kind of important instead of running away from the plot completely.
He left so much out of kara story and says they somehow bond suspiciously quick in the house. How did he miss this? They had a connection before, but Todd beat up Kara and she had to be repaired and had memory reset, but gains her memory back
Kara: 7 minutes. 🤓
Connor: 4 minutes. 🤓
Markus: 26 minutes. 🗿
9:27 the “bitterly divorced parents” analogy was so funny to me idk why
I would have liked to see more of the interior of Cyberlife and what Conner's living conditions were like behind the scenes. I also wish that there was a bit more playable inter action between Hank and Conner.
It's heavily implied Connor is alrdy deviant front the get go. And as you said just heavily conditioned to think other wise. His machine path is him overcompensating for his obvious signs of deviancy by being even more machine like. He kills people freely even when a true machine is literally not able to unless given specific instructions.
You can actually abandon her
How?
@@frigorifero645at the camp u dump the dead body
@@svprcrm7189 ohhh ye right
Kara's story was a more personal one while the other two affected the overarching story and world as a whole. Think it comes down to whether you play Quantic dream games as action adventure or interpersonal dramas. Their past games swing wildy back and forth. This one actually had a better story flow. But you'll always have your more interesting pov's vs. boring ones.
Markus and Kara’s stories can get boring at times, but Connor is great
I also feel like the androids never really feel like machines. Like you said for Connor: it would be nice, if saving the fish wasn't even an option. I think it would also be so cool, if you could only run in straight lines as long as the android hasn't deviated. I mean, they are androids, why can I make them run in circles or walk the literally most inefficient way possible, when androids are machines that would take the shortest route. Another idea if they would make it that way is that each time Connor has a software instability you could walk a bit more freely.
I guess this would probalbly be hard to programm, but I feel like this would help with understanding the human side of the story more. At the end of the day, unlesss they deviate, they are just machines but it sadly never really comes across like this in my opinion.
MAJOR SPOILERS: IF YOU HAVEN'Y FINISHED THE GAME
CAUTION:
I know that I am a couple of months late but I would like too add a few more points.
With the dirty bomb ending, you have some very good points but I would like to add a few more. If Markus took the detonator and fought in the revolution and he got shot too many times and you didn't have Simon or North (bc they died obv of your choices) to give you their hearts as Markus was slowly shutting down. Markus should of then had the choice of detonating the dirty bomb instead of him just slowly dying on the battlefield as an ending.
We do see this concept if Markus does fail the revolution and retreats into the cyberlife store with North (if she was still alive) or him alone, we can see this ending. But refusing the detonator of the dirty bomb can be another "path unlocked" in the game too. If Markus dies in any point into his story before the last chapter, players will see North be next in line and taking Markus's spot with her ideology and ideas she obv chooses to declare war and fight to liberate the androids in the camps.
Players will then see her fighting and gaining ground, but she loses too many androids in the process (and depending on the choice you made with Conner becoming deviant or staying a machine) you will see North get shot by the soldiers if Conner was a deviant and trying to converted the androids in the cyberlife tower or was decommissioned. If the player chooses Conner to remain a machine, North will retreat into the cyberlife store and Conner will enter the store choosing to kill or spare North. I think we should have had a choice to detonate the dirty bomb as North if Conner chose to spare her or see North already detonating it as it is her last resort for them to win before Conner arrives. Overall I think we should have played as North in the revolution if Markus was killed instead of seeing her lose it.
I doubt not many of you will actually read and see this but if you do thank you. Let me know of your thoughts of ideas on possible endings and other alt paths you think we should of had.
The point about Rose's son doesn't really make sense because in the canada ending he admits he finally understands what his mom means in front of her, and Rose is absolutely gleaming at the conversation.
this was so good homie 😭
8:40 Connor’s machine story be unsatisfying? Bro Connor turns into John wick that way it’s awesome so many cool scenes and different missions with machine Connor idk how you found it that way
Well the "You wouldn't love me anything" from Alice actually makes sense though. Think about it, her "dad" kept saying how he didn't like andriods, and civilization says how they don't like them either. So what would make Kara the exception?
Amanda being some kind of rude towards Connor is a way for cyberlife to be sure that Connor will want to betray them by showing him that even if he does is best he will never be good enough for cyberlife/human in general
Just like some of the greatest hits out there (jjba), it's sometimes enough for something to be an amazing original story generator for us to obsess over it. DBH fandom is like playing Cyberpunk Red, I'd wager. Writing our own stories and uncovering sides to the characters the writers might have never intended. Btw Simon x Marcus for life
Only at the beginning of the video right now, but I think Kara does have a character. And she forms such a fast bond with Alice because she sees how Todd is treating her, she finds clues that Todd broke the previous Android and is abusive to his daughter, and when she decides to save Kara, Todd is trying to break her again. Thats why Androids at other points in the story killed their owners, like the RA9 Android that got interrogated. They have started to care about surviving, and an android designed to be nurturing just went through a life or death moment with a child, so the android cares about her
no she didn’t have a character
@@yutikoo great explanation
This is such a well done video as someone who didn't play DBH I felt like you explained the problems within the writing for Markus and Kara's stories really well. Also, 3:25-3:34 made me LOL
Please play the game a lot of his points fall flat when you realise they do answer this in game. Especially the Markus power part it isn't spoon fed but can be deducted.
I legitimately hated Kara story too because it’s essentially her being a mother. No driving factor no real introspection of why she needs to save Alice just. She’s a mom now because what’s more human than a mother’s love?
Kara's story would've been far more interesting, like you mentioned, if they made the goal of it to be her bringing Alice to her mother, only to eventually become a mother to Alice herself. Show how her affection for Alice goes beyond her programming directing her to protect the child in her care. It gives their story a goal and tension by making it so that Kara has something stopping her from being a mother to Alice, but showing how androids can be just as loving as a human and how family isn't defined by blood just like we saw with Carl and Markus and even Hank and Connor to a degree.
As for Amanda's part in Connor's story, I think you nailed it right on the head with the 'cold mother' analogy. She is never happy with Connor, regardless of if it's his fault or not, because she is like a narcissistic parent. She needs Connor to be perfect and obedient, but to also somehow recognise any possible outcome, putting unrealistic standards on him that she KNOWS he will never be able to meet. We even see how she uses Connor's clear affection for her (notice how the first time we see Connor smile in-game is AT Amanda when she greets him) until the very end when, especially in the bad ending, she replaces him with RK900. Connor, like an abused "gifted" child, will never be enough for Amanda and she manipulates him to chase after approval he will never receive.
Wow dude didn’t really expect to get spoiled on Silent hill 2. 🤦♂️
I literally had to skip the video before he fully said that twist no warning or anything 😭
I'll be editing this comment as I go.
Kara isn't a brand new android, she's an android that has already lived with Alice and was named by Alice. Her program was to take care of Alice so the deviant virus (or whatever it actually is) caused that programming to turn into a desire to be a mother. This is kinda the only problem I had with this section.
The Connor segment was great, no problems with this and your version of the story does sound like s great way to make it better.
The changes to Markus are also great, my only problem is because of personal bias. I like Simon the most because he seems like the one who actually cares about Markus as a person so having his death be mandatory for the story just doesn't feel right for me personally even though it does make sense
"I'm Caucasian, so i can't speak for any African-Americans."
Holy shit!! Somebody with a fucking brain just entered the chat!
Nobody should speak for anybody else then
@@ExpertContrarian there ya go! Now he's getting it!
@@TheMadWhit666too bad the people that say this still speak for other people 😂
@ExpertContrarian Yea well you can't control everyone. Some people are still gonna be idiots and think they know what's best for other groups of people. In my opinion, they should mind their own business and figure their own shit out.
But then again, opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one and they generally stink.
@@TheMadWhit666 so you’re just a hypocrite. Pretty typical.
that 1 year break was cooking up a fire video
um... I disagree about evil play-through Connor story being unsatisfying. It's just becomes Hank story with Connor as Villain Protagonist the problem is you need to make sure that Hank survives to have a rooftop fight and that Connor never completely destroyed after that scene even tho letting Hank win and throw him of a roof is a great conclusion to this story arc. A story of a man learning empathy to robots by observing robot who completly lacks it. "Your a machine Connor. Just a machine."
Glad I’m not the only one who still thinks about this game and what it could have been. Shocked you don’t have more subscribers- great quality video and critique! Subscribed :)
I mean the whole point with Kara is that she finally woke up BECAUSE OF ALICE. from Alice was born the desire to be a person and not just an obedient robot, it seems even stupid to ask "why don't I have the option as Kara to abandon Alice?" like...💀
I know a lot of people are talking about Alice and Kara, but I really felt disappointed with the writing of Jericho in this story. Markus being a leader should’ve been emphasized by the people he’s leading, not just the people he’s leading WITH. It would’ve been very interesting to see how Markus bonds with the Jericho community and how they push him to take on the leader role. Maybe a couple of chapters or scenes could’ve been dedicated to fleshing out Jericho itself (conflict between refugees, wholesome moments, maybe humans could’ve joined at some point! Like Alice, if they removed that god awful plot twist).
It could’ve been a great opportunity to make the androids seem more human outside constant victimization - while also respecting those they are based on. If the Android movement truly represented the civil rights movement/history of slavery, the writers should have done a better job of also portraying the positive things that continued thrived in that movement (family, culture, art, achievements, etc…) through community-bonding instead of making victimization the sole focal point. Instead, it just remains Jericho™ throughout the course of the game.
It’s so refreshing and nice seeing Detroit become human moments
2:19 Isn't that the whole nature of the game? Human tendencies in androids coming out? And there was a whole side plot of how Todd destroyed the android before Kara which I'm assuming had a deeper bond with Alice before maybe?
I think this game is great but still think your completely right just imagine what this could’ve been
Honestly something that really bothered me with the Markus storyline was how he would free the androids. Freeing the androids by itself was all fine and dandy but immediately the androids are made to join Jericho and fight with Markus. Obviously there isn't really a safe space for deviants that isn't Jericho, but the way they are "freed" to then go on and listen to all of Markus' orders bugged me. Especially with the way he lived a decent life before deviating, he had a good home where his "handler" actually pushed him to express himself, now he is taking in all these other androids who have lived worse lives and is telling them what to do and they listen. North says it herself during the scene where you break into the cyberlife stores when she says they follow Markus. I don't know, it always bugged me how he would convert them saying "you're free" but then they would follow him around and do whatever he wanted just like they would with their "handlers".
Very nice video man, I agree with practicly everything that you've said about the game's plot, your point was right on spot. Keep the good work man! Love the game!
On the note of the "evil" playthrough being unsatisfying: I made my husband play this game because I wanted to watch because I like the game and there are so many branching paths, all that good stuff. Imagine my dismay when I realized that him being a paranoid technophobe meant that the whole time he was against the androids being sentient. He was actively not wanting any of the characters to be "human" at all. He had a horrible relationship with Hank because he was playing Connor as a machine, Marcus died and North took over, all the evil route things. All of that just because he didn't want to be in the characters' shoes at all and viewed them as an enemy to humankind. Ugh. I was very annoyed with him the whole time. Especially for making Hank hate him, LOL. That was unforgivable for me.
Based husband.
Human supremacy🤟
i see where your husband comes from but damn can’t even spare an inch of empathy for them is insane
Alice is very shy and scared easy. She seems to have social anxiety which can be cause from abuse
commenting to boost this really high quality video❤
The thing is with kara and alice is that the player didn't know Alice wasn't a human until the end, but Kara knew early on at the house. She always knew from the magazine clippings/advertisements that were obscured and dropped onto the floor.
36:14
Cruel Theory of Morality: Man will support any idea that has not been shown to cause extreme cruelty.
We can extrapolate this theory to suggest that man will not hold sympathy towards an oppressed group, unless said group suffers extreme cruelty. However, there's a considerable likelihood that most people are not flat out repulsed by extreme cruelty. Rather, most people will only disapprove of extreme cruelty if it is unjustified. Therefore, if the androids choose to violently rebel against the military, they will appear as less sympathetic to the general public. Human soldiers are being killed, which is justification enough to enact cruelty upon the androids according to most people.
Um Aktually, Kara knew all along
This game notoriously keeps it's 3 main characters from interacting w/each other as much as possible, which reminds me a lot of RE. Not a trait from RE I would use
Markus will always be my favorite character. I know he didnt get as much growth as conner but I did like being able to see myself as him on my first run. I got so connected to him it honestly was sad to find out so many people didnt like him
Detroit Become Human is a great idea but it wasn't executed well, this video points out basically everything I feel about it
To this day Detroit remains one of my favorite games I've ever played. I know a lot of people dislike the "interactive movie" style the game leaned towards, but I've actually loved it.
You kinda lost me on 3:31
Why are you not allowed to just leave Alice?
Dude, you ARE
And again on 4:28
She does?
"You didn't he loved me?"
I know that this one dialouge isn't enough, but that doesn't mean it's not there
And it's not like I'm trying to protect this game, because I strongly agree with the "lost potencial" part
But you can't just make mistakes like that
It seems like you don't know this game and just don't know what you're talking about
I've always said that DBH should have been 3 different games. That way each story has more time to explore them and build up better. It would have been cool to raid Jericho as Connor then see it in its dilapidated state as Markus and grow it into what Kara flees to. That way, knowing your actions in the other stories, the tension builds on itself and you get to see how large-scale decisions affect the everyday common people. You wouldn't even have to change much
I think it would have been better if we played as Alice
It feels a bit like David Cage through a bunch of futuristic android story spaghetti at a wall too see what would stick, and some of it did, but the rest felt so disjointed, inconsistent, and messy. It's clear that Cage was so ambitious but didn't take the time to create a consistent narrative over a big branching one. I kind of see it like a quality over quantity issue. I recognize it's a lot of work, so maybe bringing in some better writers to help him out with the overall plot and characters would have helped a lot to make something a lot better. It's really unfortunate because I love DBH and would love for it to have been something even better than what it was.
16:07 CorixKenshin is black and he liked this scene so I think it's at least somewhat valid. Yes black people are still treated badly but this moment is still somewhat ok
CorixKenshin isn't the spokesman of black people. One black dude likes something doesn't mean its valid
@@sclarinet9088no but cory definitely has a large fanbase and a can bet a bunch of African Americans agree with cory's opinion
@@sclarinet9088 What has this got to do with ''validity''?
@@Raddish-IS-Raddstill doesn't make them the spoke people
Just starting this video, so I apologize if you answer this question later, but I think Kara's motivation makes a lot of sense, even with the information given. You suggest that she should've given Alice to the police but the purpose of the police is to maintain and enforce the law. Within that purpose, Alice would've been returned to her legal guardian, even if she was a human child. It's a lot harder to take kids away from their biological parents than you'd think, and in many states corporeal punishment is legal, and it's only considered physical abuse if it becomes too extreme, but what counts as extreme can be incredibly arbitrary and vary based on which cop, CPS agent, or judge (if it even goes to court--which many abuse allegations never do)--is reviewing the facts of the case.
Not to mention that Alice has no family willing to take custody of her other than her dad. The government is very hesitant to put kids in foster care as it's a strain on government resources. Going to the police would in no way get Alice out of that house.
Agree, I don’t think his point of returning Alice to the police makes sense considering the situation that they’re both in. Not to mention that she would’ve probably been returned to cyberlife if you kill Todd bcos the police would’ve known Alice is an android and Kara doesn’t want that.