Its cool! :) I am really impressed by how well thought out and written this is, as someone who wants to make videos similar to this in the future do you mind me asking how you write for such a long and analytical video?
@@5x5Takes Thank you! I suppose I don't have a shortage of ideas but I was wondering if there's a certain process you have in terms of the organization of information. I know what I want to say, but I suppose I'm not sure how to place the information?
this sounds so basic, but genuinely. make an outline. it's very easy for ideas to just balloon out of scope if you write off the cuff. have a thesis statement for every paragraph, and an overall thesis statement for your essay/script. aka, if someone asked you "what's your video about?" be able to answer it clearly and directly in 1-2 sentences. and then always keep that in mind as you write, drawing the ideas Back to that thesis. also, decide how you want to go about organizing your analysis. thematically? chronologically? etc. label everything. sections and sections within sections. organization will save you a headache bc genuinely As You Write and think you'll think of more things and the last thing you want is to have word salad at the end of a google doc that you don't know what to do with. if you have another question I will answer as best I can. also, I am One person with One style of thinking/analysis/organization--everyone has their own little flair and that's what's fun. something I in particular like to do is, at the end of any essay, make sure I have a "so what" in the conclusion. meaning, not just summing up what I already said (youve read the script/watched the video, you don't need me to repeat myself) but make sure that I am connecting these ideas to something bigger. the "why even write this" of it all. usually some larger idea/theme/emotion/concept that brings it all together. maybe something meta. blah blah blah. anyway!
@@5x5Takes thank you so much! I think I more than often have significant ideas and interesting things to say but I find myself rambling endlessly. If I end up making a few videos I will give that a try. Thanks again for taking time out of your day to give some advice to some dude! :)
I will NEVER forgive the media for portraying these movies as "a love triangle for teens" instead of this complex and *real* look at empathy and politics
If the media portrayed it as it was, it would have been critiquing itself. It never would have been green-lit if it was self-aware enough to show the nuance and criticism of the media itself demonstrated in the books.
Wasn't Collins also purposely making the triangle to call out the trope? Its why Gale does what he foes in book 3 and Katniss has no ACTUAL chemistry with either and settles just because its what life is supposed to be, I got the heavy impression there is no actual love between her and Peeta just companionship
Caesar Flickerman is the character that terrifies me the most personally. The man has literally interviewed and bantered with HUNDREDS of children that he watched and commentated being brutally murdered, starved, or succumb to the elements. Yet he’s the most bombastically enthusiastic character on screen. How does a man like that operate day by day.
by dehumanizing them. to him, they're not really people, they're fully there for entertainment purposes and that's it. you don't have to look for this kind of behavior too far away, it's enough to look at how people talk about brown children from middle east killed in military conflict. sure, they're kids but they're the wrong color, so it's passable. caeser sees the tributes as bred for killing and being killed. nothing more. they MAY become real people if they manage to win.
@@bradleyadams5252he’s also probably on a crap ton of Uppers (think Coke, meth, and Amphetamines) to cope alongside a heaping of propaganda he heard as a kid probably from his dad Lucky.
That is his mask he has to put on every single waking moment of every day or else he will end up dead. We have seen what happened to people in the Capitol not doing their job well enough or when Snow gets bored/annoyed with you. A public figure like Flickerman adapted quickly in order to manage to survive that long. I believe he has a dozen masks on and a million protective walls up due to paranoia because remember that Snow was a cunning dictator who kept every citizens under a tight surveillance. His main tools were fear that was constantly fed by paranoia. Haymitch said it pefectly: if you wish to survive, make sure that people like you. And well, Cesear is loved by the entire Capitol so he has created his own survial by doing his job perfectly. Because we have seen what Snow does to people who has made a mistake or who have bored/offended/angered him. TBH, Effie Trinket is far worse IMO. She travelled to all the districts, saw their poverty, the misery, and the dictatorship in full force with her own eyes, and still all that matters to her were the games (and her team winning because that would bring more prestige to her). Her eyes were only forced open after the rebels had captured her. She did care about Katniss and Peeta (and Haymitch in the end) but she had been willingly oblivious.
I really don’t think people pay enough attention to Katniss’ class at the beginning of the book. She’s in the lowest class of the worst district. She’s been her family’s primary protector and provider since she was 11, and knows what it feels like to starve. She’s had PTSD and attachment issues even before the games from her father’s deaths and mother’s depression (honestly, katniss’ relationship with her mother is one of the themes that I really wish could have been explored in more depths. Going from being a child to being a provider because your primary caregiver has just shut down and then having to go back to being a child due to a sudden windfall is a novel all in its own). If she was in the real world, she wouldn’t be an average suburban teen, she’d be a poor dropout in a poor area with a record as long as your arm doing 3 different semi illegal jobs to make sure her sister doesn’t have to. She’s not a middle class Everyman, she’s an EXTREMELY troubled youth who was doomed by the system even before she stepped into the arena. There are MILLIONS of Katnisses out there in the world that we’ve been conditioned not to empathize with. If the readers met someone like her in real life, they’d wrinkle their nose and hold their phones in a death grip.
I think you're close but not bang on. Katniss kept going to school. A kid today may work 3 jobs and continue school in order to be educated to support her family. Also as far as semi illegal it depends, katniss never broke a law that would hurt anyone. She didn't shoplift from rich businesses, didnt prostitute herself,didn't get to selling white liquor or morphling she only dumpster dove and sold her own things. Hunting was illegal but had no sound reason other than tyranny so she did break that law. If by semi illegal you mean run an unlicensed daycare sure I'll buy that.
"If the readers met someone like her in real life, they’d wrinkle their nose and hold their phones in a death grip." That was painful to read, but so true. Holy shit.
I was a Katniss and read the series while getting ready to deploy into combat. I came back, ended up homeless. I found that every person who offered help was like the people of the capitol with their nose in the air, using my desperation to manipulate me for mere amusement. People hate a victim and love to help kick them while they are down. People love the victimizers and will rally to support them. Than once you get back up and try again people demand you should just shut up, stay small and be grateful. MJ said it best "... All I really want to say is they don't care about us..."
@@Khaegch-favh As someone who has helped others with drug addictions and mental health issues, it's not always that other people don't care. Drugs and certain substances can take away the humanity from the abuser. They will smoke crack in the same house that you sleep in, they will steal money from your poor grandmother, and they can do really selfish actions that push people away. I'm not saying this covers all scenarios, but drug abuse, trauma, and mental health issues can also make the person suffering a challenge to engage with and help.
I could never figure out if Katniss was having a nightmare about that possibility happening, or if she was having a nightmare about what that girl said to her. Basically I never knew if it was a real moment or not?
I like how also the empathy/care escalates. It's easier to care the closer we are to someone. Katniss does not volunteer for a stranger, she does it for her sister. Immediate family. When she becomes allies with Rue and mourns her, it is because she reminds her ofher sister. one step removed, but still somewhat tied to familiarity. at first she cares for the vulnerable, like Maggs and Wiress etc. then later she learns to empathize with people like Joanna too. there is a natural progression to it, from the most familiar to more and more abstract.
To further that point, in the last book, Katniss even begins to have understanding for the citizens of the capital. While it still feels alien to her, she can still view them as people who are scared and who have been wronged by the same system as her. They may not have faced daily poverty like her or subjected to the horrors that were The Games, but they were still trained to see the world a certain way
@@book-hoarder5664which is why she takes a stand against the grey haired woman (i forgot her name) that was the leader of district 13, because she realized that they also deserve empathy
Not many people talk about him or even remember him, but I often think of Thresh and the way first he saved Katniss's life by killing Clove, and then he let Katniss go when he could have killed her himself, just because she had tried to protect Rue and honored her after her death. That's not only one but two wasted opportunities to have Katniss killed, yet he chose TWICE to give her another chance to live in a game when only one person can make it out of the arena alive. That stuck with me as the biggest display of human compassion in any of the games, and in many ways I think Rue was the catalyst for all the events that took place afterwards.
I don't remember where I read it, but someone said " The Hunger Games showed an entire generation that the most revolutionary thing they could do was to to be compasionate."
Problem is that ppl are compassionate towards those they relate to or are similar to (whether appearance or ideological) or for their own benefit (missionaries) vs universally compassionate. It will largely remain that way as humans to their core are tribalist. It’s easy to be universally compassionate when things are good. When things start crumbling we go into self preservation
@@trevnti ''It’s easy to be universally compassionate when things are good. When things start crumbling we go into self preservation.'' What is your answer to that?
@@ceterisparibus8966 my response comes from Terry Pratchett (excerpt from a longer quote which i hope you'll go find and read) "Then turn selfishness into a weapon! Make all things yours!" I am safest when i have a community and a world that is structured around protecting everyone, and because i am a part of my community and the world I have a responsibility to that protection as well, not just for myself but for everyone.
My still favorite scene in the entire series is when Peeta takes the victor out to the water and tells her to look at the sky so she can focus on the colors while she is dying- he was already such an empathetic person to begin with but that scene was so well done because he gave her a last moment of true joy and peace before she died.
I loved Peeta. I thought he was such an interesting and well rounded character. Privileged yet damaged in his own way. Observant and cunning, but without the same hardness that gets revealed in Gail later on.
A little late to the party, but this ultimately is proof that Gaul's theories were wrong- when presented with suffering and violence, Peeta chose to show compassion to someone he was supposed to fight to the death. Fair enough, the tribute wasn't attacking him with a club as Snow was in BoSaS, but even so, when Peeta could have shown no mercy, he chose to view her as an equal.
"I make a list in my head of all the good things I’ve seen someone do. Every little thing I can remember. It’s like a game. I do it over and over. Gets a little tedious after all these years, but there are much worse games to play." ― Katniss Everdeen
I sob every time. My family probably thinks there's something wrong with me. We watch the movies about once a year and I'm surprised they don't all leave the room before the last line to avoid seeing me break down.
For me, the trafficking of Victors really drives home the fact that they didn't win at all- they just lived to see another day of being owned completely by the Capitol. (Also, it's definitely a tactic to keep the most popular Victors under control)
It's a choice between being a slave doing hard labor or a slave in a harem. Most of us would rather be in a harem having sex all day and our beauty pampered than working 16 hours days, every day until you are worked to death
This is kind of just what it means to be the plaything of the rich and powerful. How do you leave somewhere when they flew you there on their private plane? How do you ask for something they've said you can't have when they pay all the staff? How do you refuse a request when they just casually gave you some spending money the equivalent of half a years work at your old job? The trap for the winners is so obvious in hindsight.
There's a moment in The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes that really stuck with me. In the arena, the main antagonist is Coral, one of the tributes from district 4. By all accounts, Coral is in the best position to win. She's strong, she's ruthless, we see her ending tributes mercilessley, even ones she has an alliance with. She seems completely devoid of empathy. UNTIL. It's only her and Lucy Gray left, being chased by the snakes and climbing the rubble. Of course the snakes won't attack Lucy Gray, but Coral doesn't know that, and Lucy is just a few steps ahead of her and the snakes. As the snakes are swarming her and biting her, she cries out in a high-pitched, childlike voice, begging for her life. She says, "It's not fair. It's not. It can't have all been for nothing." This literal child sacrificed her own empathy and humanity and turned herself into a monster, just as the Capitol demanded of her, because all she wanted was to survive. And at the end, she realises that everything she did was ultimately meaningless and she is going to be disposed of anyway, just because Lucy Gray was able to climb a pile of rubble just a little bit faster. She strangled her own soul for the Capitol, and the Capitol fed her to the snakes.
It’s such a weird ending compared to the book, like all of a sudden Gaul doesn’t care about having a satisfying conclusion to the Hunger Games which is yknow THE ENTIRE GODDAMN POINT
@@XanderMatthews-nv9zf I might be wrong here but I believe that it's very heavily implied that Gaul knew about the handkerchief. She was grooming Snow to be her successor, and she wanted to encourage him to do anything, by any means, to succeed. Even his banishment from the Capitol wasn't a punishment, but a test. She wanted to see if he could find a way to get back to the Capitol. In addition, she wanted him to lose all sympathy for the Districts- what better way than to send him there, so that his experience would traumatise him and leave him bitter? I believe the snakes were also a test. She deliberately told him about them, to see if he could neutralise them as a threat. And also, it gave her the opportunity to send him to the Districts.
@@XanderMatthews-nv9zfthe point of the hunger games for the capitol is to make the districts submissive and afraid. It doesn’t care that it doesn’t have a satisfying end, only that the district people are fearing for their lives
You see but this defeats the entire point of the books. Given the choice between predator and prey everyone runs and hides. There is no blood bath because this is the first time there doesn’t have to be one with the arena being blown up a day before they go in. There were no cameras in the tunnels. Sure they made allies and eventually went after each other but that wasn’t until they really had to. And that dismisses the point that Repear who was actually in the best position to win the games, he was strong and fast and the capital wanted him to be violent. But instead he harms no one. He simply drags his axe around the center of arena, actually helping Lamina, and then hiding the bodies from the capital in a respect of the dead, talking away the spectacle the capital so desperately wanted. And when Reaper finally dies at the hand of Lucy and her rat poison, the last one, we have this moment with Lucy where she simply sits down, tilts her head to the sun, and waits to be collected.
Some food for thought: in the TBOSAS book, when the bell went off and the games started, there was no instant death, instant action like we saw in the movie; in fact, most of the tributes ran away. But of course, no violence is boring to watch, right? So that’s not the way it was translated into film. Oddly disturbing when you think about it.
I don't remember if it was said in the books or not, but that scene made me think that that is why they introduced the cornucopia. With it, the games get that instant burst of action and the first few deaths to start off the show.
Sorta off topic but I always think about how in catching fire (I think it was), the capital people have a drug that allows them to get sick after being full and move room for more food. Knowing that the capital controls how much food the districts get and ignorantly indulge in more food then they can stomach is so disturbing to me. Especially since we have drugs similar to that today that really are only accessible to people who can afford it.
@@Howlzffffdd the only thing I want to say is that why do people spend money on some "medicine" to vomit when there are very easy two fingers in the mouth. Do not recommend any method, if anything
Well in the book much more tributes died before they even entered the actual arena... In the movie all but 5 were still alive and they - that sounds so cruel now - had to get ridd of 6 more tributes on screen at the beginning of the arena
Got chills near the end when you were talking about compassion and love in the games being its own downfall. I read somewhere: "at the start of The Hunger Games, Katniss was terrified of Prim dying young and Peeta was terrified of the capital changing him. By the end, Prim died anyway and they changed Peeta in all the ways he was scared of" In the end nothing mattered. But it all did. Nothing was changed. Everything was changed.
when i reread the books i realized pretty quick that every single character loses what they wanted, haymitch just wanted to be drunk and left to die but couldn't, katniss just wanted prim to live and she didnt, peeta didnt want to change and he did, joanna makes an offhand comment about not wanting to fry and thats exactly how they torture her, finnick wanted annie and a life outside the game and he lost it all, gale wanted katniss and lost her, snow wanted the games to continue and they didnt, coin wanted power and lost it all in the end, hell effie even just wanted to be famous and get into higher ranks in the capitol before katniss and peeta show up, nobody "won" in these books, they survived
Another way the dehumanize the tributes in the later games is that they wear a uniform. Lucy really stands out in her dress and it shows her personality. Also when they die the picture in the sky states only the number of their district and not their name.
I doubt it. They have gone through trial and error in the games, and if a tribute dies too quickly because of something boring like frostbite, heat exhaustion, etc it makes it not fun for the capitol population. So they give them a set of clothes that are fitting for the environment. Of course even in the books their "uniforms" don't look exactly the same like the movies show
@@бронза.вафля.конус I wouldn't doubt the uniform thing is intentional dehumanization; I think katniss mentioned in the book that there was this one arena w/o trees and the tribute froze. Maybe an earlier one before snow was in power.
The Hunger Games is one of the few series where the main character having a child at the end actually means something extremely significant. Even in our real world, I feel uncomfortable forcing a child into it. So imagine, after all that trauma, still knowing that the world was finally safe enough to have a child, means something real.
yes because in the first movie Katniss even said to Gayle that she's never having children. So her having one in the end definetly means that the world changed for good and got much safer
@TheHypnosBunny dude, a couple of children dying tragically is not comparable to what our ancestors suffered during say the 30 years war, the black plague or WWI and ll. At least in the west this Argument of I don't want to bring kids into such a terrible world is just bs. Now I want to force nobody to have kids, but just admit that you don't want any for lifestyle reasons only.
You know, I had a long explanation written for how life in some areas of the western world, despite your grand delusions, are actually literally hell on earth for the people trapped living there, and yes, fuck you, I DO mean the word "trapped" literally, and that's without the fact that about 500 rich corporate fucks are making sure the entire planet is going to slowly kill us all no matter where we are on it. But the way you talk marks you clearly as someone who refuses science and worships at the altar of alternative facts. So you aren't going to listen to an argument no matter what anyone says. But I do congratulate you on the sheer privilege of being able to believe that being born in a certain hemisphere of the planet automatically grants you a good life.
The scene where Katniss says “Panem today. Panem tomorrow. Panem forever,” while everyone in the district she’s talking to is screaming at them is so haunting.
(Maybe a not so) fun fact, thats a rewording of a part of an unfortunately very real speech made by an anti civil rights politician during the Jim Crow era south, where the infamous hook of the speech was “segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.”
Cato’s death in the books is so sad. He ends up at the hand of the capitol’s mutts ripping him apart for HOURS only stopping when Katniss mercy kills him
They weren't even tearing him, he was wearing body armor that protected him ankle to neck. So likely he lost his hands and feet and then beyond that they were effectively bludgeoning him to death
@@fangsabrei can remember why hunger games gave me an existential crisis about death back in middle school after reading all the comments recapping the book
And let’s not forget that the mutts attacking looked LIKE THE OTHER TRIBUTES. So he’s being attacked by (things that look like) the people he murdered for HOURS. It’s a special kind of horror that the movies didn’t touch on, either for the rating or the fact that they wanted to maintain the illusion of the spectacle for some meta commentary.
@@fangsabre iirc they were moreso dissecting his body while avoiding vital organs and, by time Katniss aims for the head, he looked like a meat with a face
I'm always thinking about Coral's final lines, as she was dying she cried out "It's not fair, I can't have killed them all for nothing." and she was right, she killed so many people in that arena, had such a good chance of survival, and yet she died like the rest of them, unable to change anything at all
I still couldn't bring myself to sympathize with her. Not because of what she had done but the way she had done it. It's one thing to realize that your only chance of making it out alive is killing others and doing it for self preservation. It's another to stab an alleged teammate and mention how conveniently easy it will be to kill an 8 year old child while smirking. It may have been an act to convince herself and her teammates of her actions (same way she mentioned to Snow how she'd kill his songbird next in order to hurt him) but she just displayed a level of cruelty that doesn't make me believe that killing the others was such a difficult thing to do, in a sense deeply regretting it. But of course she's still only another child and victim of the system.
My favourite character is Cinna. Who humanised someone the other stylists see as a living corpse that they need to make pretty, when he walked in he resurrected her from the make over 'slab'.
He really was wonderful and the actor portrayed his character beautifully - a quiet compassionate genius. I don’t think anyone who just sees the films realizes how much work he put into curating Katniss’ image as a starstruck young girl to keep her alive. With all the designs he’d made ahead of time for the rebellion and the mockingjay dress, he had to have known he was likely signing his own death warrant.
Cinna deserves so much love. He’s pretty much the only person who shows Katniss actual humanity in the Capitol. He doesn’t sugarcoat or pretend to be able to save her, but he does everything he can to give her some dignity back
Also underrated is that he works in fashion. Not only is it an area that men get mocked for working in, but it tends to get poo-pooed compared to other arts. And yet here it’s shown that, like the other arts, it can make a political statement.
There’s also an interesting part of the books that explains that the ENTIRE district gets food parcels for a YEAR if one of their tributes wins to “reward them” for producing a victor. I think this is such an interesting detail because even if you’re entirely against the games, even if it’s someone you know or love in that arena, you can’t look away. You can’t help but root for them, because if they win, you win too. It’s such an interesting way to make those in the districts still want the winnings of the games, even if it comes at the expense of incredible violence. Because there’s always that chance that feeds on their desperation. That possibly creates resentment to those who weren’t “good enough” to win, and also that intense alienating idolization to those who DO win.
just wanted to tack on that its about food literally food, daily nutrition sustenance and survival not luxury, not a single crumb beyond the idea, just another years worth to keep doing the same thing that both partys know they'll claw for
@@jamescanjuggle i think that is mentioned multiple times, and it's such a symbolic detail! Panem is Bread in latin. each district has its typical bread. the games are called the Hunger Games, not only because tributes may starve and are hungry for victory, but because the reason they are hungry for victory is that they are phisically straving where they come from. they starve every day they are not in the Capitol and everyone back home starves too. and if you win you won't starve any longer. your family won't either. for a year, your distric won't starve. a lot of attention is placed on food. something so basic but that not everyone has. collins really went for the most baseline theme and turned into a masterpiece. the amount of passages where katniss comments on the amount of food the capitol people consume or have at their disposition is incredibly big. and that's precisely one of the things that makes her angrier: that these people don't know how lucky they are to have food.
It also serves to make the district people feel morally complicit. "Look, you wanted your people to win, and when they do you benefit as much as anyone! You are not fundamentally different than Capitol folk." It's very similar to when someone complains about capitalism the response is, "Well if you feel that way, quit spending money!" These are systems that 99% of people cannot opt out of and yet that system works actively to make compulsory involvement feel like complicity.
Cato is particularly tragic because he's essentially punished for doing his job too well. He trained himself to the point he was the strongest, most ruthless, and most likely to win. But this, paradoxically, made him less likely to win, because audiences like to root for the underdog. The Capitol understood this, and rigged the game in Katniss and Peeta's favor by letting them team up, putting them at an advantage. To win a fight to the death, you have to become cruel, but being cruel makes the audience like you less, and the audience can sponsor your competition, which is exactly what happened. The system turned against Cato because he did exactly what it told him to do, and he seemed to have realized that just before he died. Heartbreaking.
I didn't see that in the movies at all. Capitol audiences didn't root for underdogs. The audience had always loved the winners for their "glory" and success. That's why a high score was so positive, because it got you more sponsors. Katniss got sponsors, not Peeta. Because she was skilled and high scoring. They got sponsors together later because of the entertaining true love angle. Cato lost because they teamed up and beat him. Not in the slightest because he was brutal and powerful. We have no reason to believe he didn't get a ton of sponsors because high scorers typically do. We just didn't follow his day to day during the games.
@@mariposa9506 i believe **at first** the audience rooted for Cato, favoring his brute strength and powerful cruelty. But after Katniss and Peeta won over their hearts with their love and compassion towards one another, they switched sides and turned on Cato.
@@toasturhztoastbunz896 it had nothing to do with compassion, they just wanted a romance story in terms of entertainment. It's offers variety from the regular years entertainment.
But they didn't put Cato at a disadvantage. That rule change happened when two pairs of tributes were still left in the game. It made Cato and Clove team up harder if they could just kill the other pair. If they had win the capital would've done the same thing but they probably would've murdered each other instead of stage a suicide.
The capital also LOVES blood thirsty killers, they don't just root for an underdog. Both Peeta and Katniss got high scores, they were seen as possible Victor's the entire time
What always mystified me was how Capitol citizens could see children being murdered by each other as sport and entertainment but the moment Peeta announced Katniss was pregnant, that is where they suddenly grew a moral conscious and saw the deaths as inhumane.
I think that’s exactly how Americans view pregnancy. They will make legislation on women’s bodies and within the medical community to “protect” the baby but when that baby is born they don’t really care anymore.
Because it shatters the illusion of choice, before then the tributes “chose” to enter their names additional times, they “chose” to survive, they “chose” to win. But with the introduction of an unborn child who had no say in the matter in the eyes of the capital, the illusion is shattered.
The 3rd quarter quell bringing the winners together was the greatest act of arrogance the capital ever made, and this video explains perfectly why that is
@@Balrog-tf3bgand stupid as well. So far they had gotten away with manipulating poor, inexperienced _children_ . The tributes of the 3rd Quarter Quell are nothing like that, they are adults, they are "privileged" (perks of being a so-called "victor"), and above all they are SURVIVORS. They know the ropes, they probably have inside contacts in the Capitol, but most importantly they have *so much ANGER* that it should have been so obvious from the beginning why it was such a bad idea... Arrogance, cruelty and stupidity are not a great combo, yeah.
The best part is, the Capital didn't even make that move. At least in the films, it's shown Plutarch retrieving the third Quarter Quell paper, reading it, and then burning it. The implication being that Plutarch wrote down the whole "bring previous tributes back" thing for this express purpose. And I think that's masterful, and also adds to the idea that certain tributes are chosen for drama value. Like, what are the odds that every tribute in on the plan for rebellion is thrown into the arena? In fact, Haymitch initially intended to go in because he was aware of the plan...Peeta, who didn't know about the plan, fucked that up by volunteering.
It was definitely a bad idea. Like she said, they made a separate culture of the victors and expected them to do it all over again. But that culture, as small as it was, was unified by very similar experiences of abuse and oppression. That unity was their downfall.
I always thought it was this unfair symbolism of, "pull up your big girl pants." Seeing such a tiny, frail girl accept the role of sacrificial lamb was so gut wrenching. Panning to Katniss's face filled with horror put you in that universe. You felt the desperation and sickness of it all. That scene always makes me cry.
One more major thing - the glamorization of the tributes actively causes the Capital citizens to view the poorer districts, 11 and 12 particularly, as more well off and put together than they actually are. Basically sweeping the harsh reality of the truth under the rug. While simultaneously turning the district against their own representative, literally seeing this child you watched grow up in your community, maybe you even know their parents, work with them even, and suddenly they’re on TV everywhere. Dressed in elaborate, exaggerated, and eccentric clothes, getting chumming with all the people who belittle and oppress you. I wouldn’t be shocked if the parents of Tributes were subject to harassment and even assault due to this.
Your first point about downplaying the struggle in the districts is a good idea, I never thought of that! But the folks in the districts knew what was going on and if I remember correctly from the books, families of the (poor) tributes were actually given more care and comfort during and immediately after the games. I could've sworn I remember there being a line about those who could would bring food.
@@MrsNgabire oh also i remember a line that said the entire district is rewarded when its tribute wins! it didnt go into full detail im super curious now! i think they just got more food and resources, maybe funds, idk
I've always thought Effie's detachment and uncomfortable cheerfulness is, at least in part, a defence mechanism of sorts. I don't know how long she's had this job for, but surely meeting these kids every year, introducing them, guiding them in some way, and then watching them die has to affect her at least a little bit. So where Haymitch became an alcoholic and cynical to numb himself, maybe she dissociates and detaches herself, hides behind a bubbly and cheerful mask to make it less real.
I totally agree. I got the same impression for most of the capitol crew closest to the games. We see it most brilliantly in Cinna, of course, but I see it a bit in Stanley Tucci’s acting. I always wished we could see these people undressed of their shields, what are they like at home? What thoughts go through their heads as they try to sleep? EDIT ADDENDUM And one more thing! That’s always what makes me appreciate the character writing for Seneca so much, even though we get so little of him. He’s new blood, he doesn’t understand the true amorality yet.
Effie was Capitol, Haymitch was district, their conditioning was very much different. As well, Haymitch was a Victor and harmed by participation in the arena, Effie did not experience such things...
Wasn't it her first year? That was why she was excited and also in charge of the lowest district, right? I might be wrong but that's how I remember it.
I think you are absolutely right, because if you see her and Hamich say goodbye to each other at the end, gone is the face facade completely. She became a normal human being.
I'm rewatching rn and at the chapter about the volunteer system, and I find this small detail so haunting - Peeta has *just* watched Katniss, the girl he is so in love with, volunteer not only for "games" that mean almost certain death, but he has watched her volunteer to take the place of her sister to protect her from that same fate. Yet when Peeta is chosen, he is even more alone in that crowd because despite the fact that they *could* , his own brothers will not volunteer for him like Katniss just did for her sister. To think that so many children have been reaped, yet have also been plucked from siblings and putting the moral dilemma of volunteering on *them* , other children, probably forever cursing them with surivivors guilt as they watch their sibling enter the game because they *could have* volunteered if they wanted to, adds an entirely new level of cruelty and mental torture to this system. edit: formatting
If cruelty is human nature, why are most examples of it artificial? In most situations, even incredibly desperate ones, collaboration is the best strategy even just from a strategic position. Humans are herd animals; we can't do a lot on our own and need a large support structure to survive. So a situation where betraying someone else is actually beneficial is very rare unless specifically created. You know what usually happens during natural disasters? People band together to support one another. To help the young and elderly, to save neighbors and make sure everyone survives. You can see that during basically every natural disaster. Even countries that are bitter enemies sent aid in situations like these. People only turn on each other during unnatural disasters. Where people starve while the shelves are full of food. Where everyone could make it but only a few are allowed to because of arbitrary rules. These kinds of disasters are always really strange to think about. What actually happens during a financial collapse? The amount of food, housing and other necessities is still the same but access to it has been made more difficult. It's a weird effect where the more I learn about the economy and how it functions on both macro and micro levels, the less it seems real. Knowing how inflation works doesn't make a situation where people starve because they can't afford the food that is still there any less stupid. Cruelty isn't human nature because in nature it's almost never beneficial. It only appears when the powerful create a world where only a few can win and unity is dispelled with violence.
@@eatatjoes6751 Trust me I know how fucked things are currently. Our world is horrible and it makes the people that inhabit it do horrible things. But it's not “natural” and it's not the only way things can be. And yes positive change is possible. It feels ridiculous to say it isn't while living in a society with the advancements we take for granted. Every civil right be it social or worker focussed was fought for by people who came before us.
Good and evil isn't something intrinsic to nature, it is a concept invented by humanity and the ideals of it are constantly shaped over time. In the end, we are all animals trying to survive, cooperation and violence are both avenues that can lead to that survival. In a situation where cooperation is punished, violence reigns In a situation where violence is punished, cooperation reigns.
The very examples you cite of cruelty are *not* artificial and they subvert your point. It's true that collaboration is the best strategy, but it's the best strategy precisely *because* evil and cruelty are natural. Even in herd animals, the strongest don't attack the predators to protect the weak; they out-run the weak to protect themselves. "Collaboration" in this context is banding together with the other strong and fast animals to abandon the weak and survive by sacrificing a few. That's cruelty manifesting as collaboration. One of my favorite quotes on this subject is that, if they could, a 2-year-old would kill you for a cookie. We don't teach children to be evil, we have to teach them to suppress their evil, self-interested nature. We do this not because we want what is best for them, but we do it out of self-preservation. We don't want to raise generations of psychopaths. We want some cookies, too.
This is an aside, but can we talk about how Stanley Tucci NAILED Cesar Flickerman? Every time he was onscreen, I was both amused and repulsed. Truly the most slappable man in the entire Capitol.
one of the sadder parts of desensitization in the ballad of songbirds and snakes is in the beginning of the book when snow just thinks that his cousin Tigris, was able to repair his shirt by selling her body in a passing way, as if it is a regular thing and nothing to care much for
I always found it a little unnerving watching the TV promos for the last two movies in the mid-2010s. It almost felt like a parody of the spectacle critically examined in the books, but turned real on the screen in my bedroom. As if the advertisers were blissfully unaware of how much they were missing the point.
Life imitates fiction, especially in our world slowly turning into the capital itself, but take into consideration that maybe this type of advertisement and presentation might be necessary to survive in the a capitalist society we live in today. This film would never have reached the many eyes it has today if not for the flashy love triangle crap. But luckily for us now, we all enjoyed the films for what they presented us back then, not realizing now that we see in between the lines of their ignorance and once again we realize that capitalism will produce its own downfall.
THANK YOU omg I’m not the only one who is weirded out by it. Like the thirst to watch haymitch’s games and finnick’s games. Like the point isn’t the hunger games. The point is the events leading up to the perceived necessity of the games
@@susanasabino Capitol collection, specifically. And a subway add that was equally as tone deaf in its own way, it was so jarring seeing those ads air.
Just as you said "if you honor your own humanity, you doom yourself", an ad came on of a teenage-looking influencer twirling and smiling in a red fast-fashion dress and it just fit that moment perfectly
In “The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes" we learn the origin of Snow's infamous quote, "It is the thing we love most that destroys us." I find it interesting that it wasn’t really lucy grey, but his own twisted game that ultimately led to his own bitter distruction.
i loved the part where you talked about compassion and empathy rippling outward and that being the downfall of the games. snow tries to discredit katniss and the rebellion by describing katniss as just "another face plucked from the masses"... but he doesn't understand that that's exactly what gives her power. katniss is from the poorest part of the poorest district. she is another child, just like the many children of the districts, faced with misfortune and poverty. and the district people see themselves in her. one of my favorite parts in the books was when district 11, struggling and poor, sent katniss a roll of bread after she mourned and humanized rue in the games. i also appreciate you touching on how effie is sincere in believing that the games are a symbol of the capitol's generosity, and how capitol citizens, while to a much lesser extent, are oppressed as well. in the books, katniss genuinely cares for her stylists, as morbid as they are, because she sees them as naive and weak, and recognizes how while they are complicit in the games, they are desensitized to all the violence. the district people and the capitol citizens are oppressed in two different ways. capitol citizens have to yield their power to snow in exchange for their "bread and entertainment" or "panem et circenses" and if they step out of line, they can be executed just like seneca or cinna.
Oh you reminded me of the scene in catching fire where katniss' styling team has to leave the room one by one because they can't stop crying. Even THEY see it as cruel to send someone they thought was safe to care about back in, but still have to do their job.
One must never forget that in systems of oppression, the oppressors are just as much victims of the system as the oppressed. They may wear chains of gold, but they still live in chains. And if they throw off their chains, they will suffer just like the oppressed. That doesn't make what they do okay. But it does make it understandable.
I had to take a second and compose myself after you said, "some people seeing the games as risky - but doable - escape from poverty" because it's just like the military. I come from a place that is mostly in poverty, I think the rate a couple years ago was 80% of families where I lived were under poverty, and I saw it play out everyday. Areas like mine are targeted by the military with tactics that focus on "saving your family".They show up to your school and they ask you if you want to take care of your mom, or siblings, or if you want to go to college. They show you all the ways you could escape, if you only lay down your life and risk yourself. You too can be a hero for the low low cost of your sanity and life. Edit: Even careers are a perfect depiction of the other side of the coin to army recruting. All of this sealed by the fact that you're no longer allowed to join the military once you're a full adult. I know the reasoning but its just very curious that most places stop wanting you after your brain is probably fully developed.
Anecdote: I went to an underfunded Philadelphia public high school, majority black and otherwise not white students. We had an "Army day" that was so surreal I felt nauseous the entire time. It was clearly recruitment nonsense, but dressed up in "do these fun exercises with your friends. If you like it you should sign up for the military!!!". There was so much about free college and employment benefits, and absolutely nothing about how it's... you know. The goddamn US MILITARY. Everyone who went through 1. Had to sign up and give their contact info to the military recruiters. 2. Got DOG TAGS at the end of the obstacle course. Genuinely one of the most disgusting things I've ever witnessed, I was so viscerally angry. And it was so so clear they were targeting a population that couldn't know any better. They were targeting 15-18 year olds with poverty and dysfunctional families. Preying on peoples' desperation is especially disgusting.
winter's bone (2010) also has jennifer lawrence trying to escape generational poverty in a rural area (plot point was considering the military). very interesting parallel between these two movies
@ bellaroo5508 Daniel Woodrell was born and now lives in the Missouri Ozarks. He left school and enlisted in the Marines the week he turned seventeen. Some of the events in Winter’s Bone happened in his life according to an article I briefly perused.
Something they played upon during the horrible fake Vietnam war where they shipped in thousands of poor and black kids to be canon fodder knowing that they would not survive as they didn't have the drive to survive and were probably too empathic given that they were all in the same situation. This way the military used their death numbers to scare other more 'valuable' soldiers to go in a fight and leave behind any of their own empathy when taking revenge.
Honestly goes to show why The Hunger Games is one of the few YA dystopias to have stood the test of time. Suzanne Collins took the time to craft a story and world that are genuinely complex and actually have something to say, as opposed to what most of the knockoffs did, which was essentially, "Hey, let's throw a bunch of cool and edgy teenagers--preferably straight and white and in a love triangle--into a scenario where they have to overthrow an oppressive government and hope it sells"
Just wanted to say I love your pfp. Also, yes, Hunger Games is actually insanely good. I almost cried, I *never* cry over books. I almost cried at Rue's death.
i never noticed the chain of kindness weaving through the story. it makes absolute sense that it was Snow's downfall. It is something he could never envision especially after Gaul groomed him and it became a threat he couldn't prevent or stop. Also Gaul and her personal trolley problems is such a good way to explain it. She does the same thing when grooming Coryo; she put him in trolley problems over and over again, and gets insanely good at getting the outcome she wants, then attributes his actions, the outcome she engineered as a "characteristic of humanity undressed". Suzanne Collin's work on Nickelodeon and in the entertainement industry, the way she writes about the treatment of children in media, which she must have seen with her own eyes is.....when the nick docuseries came out, and rereading catching fire, the links between what we read about Finnick and the other victims and what we see on tv right now, i wonder how long it's going to take us and the entertainement industry to stop exploiting these poor children. Man, Suzanne Collins, the author that you are! Thanks for putting into words why I love these books so much. This is an incredible essay. Well done!
I feel like Finnick's storyline is so underrated, because prostitution is a really hard topic to talk about, especially to a younger audience. I never considered the Nickelodeon connection, but in light of the recent developments it can very well be an inspiration.
“Someone for whom kindness is too costly” I never thought about that aspect in this light before, the difference between Katniss and Peeta’s opportunities to think outside survival mode, to rebel. Brilliant analysis!
I just realised watching your part about mentors: Haymitch could have been at most 17 yo when he participated and won. I mean, I already felt sympathy and grief for this grown man who is clearly suffering but to imagine that a *17* year old had to immediately begin coaching the year after nearly dying is…. Unimaginable.
It makes me feel bad for previously laughing at his alcoholism. But to be fair, the movies def wrote it through a comedic lense :/ I should know better, that when a person has good comedic wit, they are also good at masking their pain with the same ability. Plus, I remember how people said he always smelled bad, and him insisting that he bathes. Stress hormones make your natural odor smell very unpleasant.
Exactly, and until Katniss and Peeta there weren’t any other victors from district 12. So he just watched two people he had to mentor die year after year. And as he grew older, those kids looked younger and younger to him. When I was a teen, 18-year-olds were full adults to me. Now I’m in my 30s and they’re so young. Trying to be the distant a…hole was probably his way of protecting himself. If the tributes don’t like him and he doesn’t like them, he won’t suffer as much once they inevitably die. On the other hand it might be even harder to deny those kids the only support they have. Of course they cling to him like they’re drowning cause they pretty much are. I think I’d be drinking too
I think Haymitch was 16, I could be wrong on that but i remember it being said in the book but that could’ve been Katniss speculating I don’t remember. It’s worse too because not only did he almost die and experience that trauma, his whole family was killed 2 weeks after because he won in a rebellious way so he had to mentor other kids with so much trauma and losing his family… like I can’t imagine how he managed to go on, I don’t blame him for becoming an alcoholic it’s the only way he could stand to be alive. He definitely would’ve tried his best to help the other kids but it would be so difficult to witness kids you’ve mentored die year after year, especially being from district 12, the odds are not in your favour at all. No wonder he basically gave up.
@@spider-woman9482also yeah, the movies are amazing but I don’t think the movies showed how bad Haymitch’s alcoholism is. It was more comedic and he seemed more put together movie wise. Whereas book wise people think he isn’t as likeable because he could be very mean a lot of the time, and his withdrawals are bad. You could feel how much of a struggle it is for him, and even after the war he never stops his drinking either
IIRC, Haymitch was 14, one of, if not the youngest Victor of the games. Because he used the containment barrier against his opponent, allowing the girl to kill herself accidentally, the game makers needed to punish him for using their set against them, it made too much of a statement. So then they killed his family and his 'girl' friend to keep him in line, friendless and alone. And now with ABOSBAS out, it's even clearer that Snow wanted revenge against District 12... Nothing good (for him) could come from 12. Every other District had multiple winners, even the other poor districts like 11... But Haymitch had no one to prepare him, and from then on, he was the only one to be able to help out, but with the raw material he would have most years, it would be a losing proposition. And one that I bet Snow fostered against 12 as a whole, even before Katniss arrived to upend the rule he'd so carefully created and maintained. EDIT - I was wrong about Haymitch's age; he was 16 - thanks to the commenter who corrected me.
I always loved that Susan made a Male Victor a victim of Sex Slavery. Sure they could have done that to a Female Victor but in a Dystopian society that would have almost been expected but we rarely if ever see Men put in that position.
yeah actually i cant name any other media with a character that was sex trafficked as an underage boy, despite that being a more common occurance than people might think
Sex trafficking of underage males is actually a huge issue. A 2008 study found that 50% of sexually exploited children in NYC were boys. Western culture and media continue to promote the idea that only females are victims, that guys are “strong, empowered, etc.” Unfortunately, this means that boys who need help are often overlooked. And apparently it’s a global problem as well. It would be helpful if more movies and media helped call attention to this.
Reading Finnick's account of his sexual abuse in Mockingjay is always super powerful. I wish that the movies had gone into more depth with Finnick because he loses a lot of likeability in the transition. He's still great, but nothing like Book Finnick
@KaiTheMemeKing I agree. When I watched the movies I felt finnick was a side character. I didnt care as much about him. But reading the books I absolutely loved his character
What Peeta says about showing them they don’t own him and how he wants to die as himself is a truly important moment in the story. Katniss says she doesn’t have the luxury to think like this, but at that moment her eyes are opened. Thus she begins her search for meaning (if I may refer to Frankl). As for humans being bad, Lucy is right. During WWII, people dehumanized other people completely, but in spite of this environment there were ordinary people (ie not soldiers) who risked their lives for perfect strangers. There was no reward for this, only danger and the possibility of death. And yet they did it. Why? Because if they were going to die they would do it being true to themselves. I enjoyed your analysis very much! Thank you for taking the time to make it.
The clip of the boy with a sword stabbing his sister is honestly sad because even as children they view the hunger games as a fun game that they want to recreate like I wouldn't doubt if they played school games about the hunger games which forms a fondness for it even before they can comprehend it
@@dream_walker9726how to say you’ve never had to provide food for yourself without saying it. Hunting for dinner or starving is a reality for many people now and through history.
The Hunger Games was in the school reading curriculum when my daughter was in the 6th grade. I was mortified. I read it first. Then we read it together, taking turns reading aloud. We discussed it thoroughly after each reading session including researching the author, political history and psychology of oppressive regimes. Other parents got the book removed to a higher grade level but, in the end, my daughter and I learned a lot. Now as an adult, she is a deeply critical thinker and social activist.
The Hunger Games is a really hard series for a reason, and if not read and discussed correctly can go over some heads. My parents were furious after seeing the first movie because, unlike the book, it lacked a lot of Katniss' internal monologue, and they didn't understand the story as much as I tried to explain. When later movies came out is when it clicked for them. I'm happy I was a preteen when this series was a sensation. I just reread it as an adult, and realized how much my current worldview is still affected by it. And I am so grateful. I think, growing up in the US, I could have fallen into the trap of being naive about conflicts and wars and how it sacrifices youth to keep the powers that be in place, had this book not stuck with me from such a young age. Thank you for doing the scary thing of confronting the story together. I am sure your daughter will continue to be an incredibly empathetic and critical thinker as she grows.
@@ramsa01Yt ? you may have to clarify what you mean by this. It appears that you assume this comment lacks empathy for Ukraine and its youth? When they are clearly victims of a war that has also robbed their youth of their lives, safety, and beautiful country. This also goes for Russian youth that are drafted in a conflict that shouldn't have been. But that goes for all wars, even though I cannot possibly list each and every one in a singular youtube comment. Those in power don't take the fall as the young people at the bottom are sacrificed for the egos of old men
Another perfect example of the capitols "threadbare empathy" is actually one of my favorite scenes from Catching Fire. When Peeta announced "oh no, Katiness and I are married... and btw, she's pregnant". The capitols citizens were aghast in the audience, not because they were sending a teenager, their favorite couple, or even a pregnant teenager to the arena, but because they can't send a BABY to the arena! Someone literally shouted "STOP THE GAMES" for an unborn child. Honestly, it was brilliant commentary on the current pro life vs pro choice argument. The unborn is a perfect vessal for empathy because they haven't had the chance to become anything. As pastor David Barnhart said: "You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone.", and that applies perfectly to the capitol citizens. They can't advocate and apologize and stop sending teenagers and children to the arena, because doing so would challenge their own perfect little worldview. They can't advocate or help Katniss and Peeta, because in doing so would mean the love story stops, the tragic romance of literal star-crossed lovers(actually love that for a time, this was used correctly btw) ends, they loose their entertainment value, their wedding ,their everything. But a unborn baby? A unborn baby that hasn't had a chance to exist, that won't challenge their worldviews, but in the same time is so perfectly innocent and would be reasonable to stop the games for? Oh, that unborn child is the perfect thing for the capitol citizens to be aghast at. It's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant writing.
The fact that you used pro life vs pro "choice" as an example reflects more about the current situation of our reality, we live the quite opposite of the last games, I wonder if this is how it all begins. I mean... I'm not denying your posture and your lecture about the pro-life, yes, a lot of them seem to be hypocrites, but, what about the pro "choice"?, they are so desensitized they don't see a baby as a human being, and the termination of their lives a decision base on logical determination, emotions aside it's just flesh, not even human flesh. So I don't see the capitol people worried about the "baby", they love the killing, the problem is that Katniss and Peeta were already victors, and they were too close to the heart and empathize with them, it was unfair as it breaks the gameplay, the one that they live in so destabilize the way they see their own lives, they feel attack by the capitol and vulnerable, LIKE A BABY... so it wasn't an abortion of a district folk, it was a killing of a desire capitol baby. My point is that we are ready prepare for such games since half the population don't see kids as something to protect but some choice of the fathers (mother), and the other just pretends they care because it messes with their protection of their lives and some false sense of defend something thats "related" to them because they can't express a self-opinion jet, like districts divided on gruops of interest. In that case pro choice are the capitol, and pro life would be the districts.
@@estebanospina3190 your argument inaccurately assumes a lot about the pro-choice camp. we are happy when our friends who want children are able to have them, we happily pay taxes to support public schools, etc. The thing is, a cluster of cells is not a child, and should never take priority over the mother's body. Did you know that it is illegal to use organs from freshly dead corpses to save living peoples' lives unless the person agreed to be an organ donor? And yet by forcing people to carry unwanted fetuses, they are being dehumanized, with fewer rights than literal corpses.
This is a brilliant analysis of the story. The movies did an excellent job of translating the books to the screen, but I always regret one of the small things they left out: that after Rue's death, Rue's district sent Katnis BREAD. In the book Katnis figures out it's from District 11 because of the type of bread it is: what it's made of and how each district has different. 'signature' bread if you will, due to what they have available to them to make bread from. The idea that a district of extremely poor people pooled their resources to they could send the girl who survived an attack that killed one of their own children is a HUGE step at the idea that people are starting to see other districts as not their enemy. It's a show of solidarity among people who are expected to view each other as rivals, as enemies. It was one of the most powerful moments in the books, for me, and I was so sad they didn't put it in the film. I understand why they did it, since it would have been hard to translate Katnis's point of view narrative that gives most of the information about that event, so the screen where we can't hear her thoughts. It's a logical thing to leave out. But I'm sad nonetheless.
What’s also interesting about that bread scene: the only reason Katniss even KNEW what each district’s “signature bread” was is because she was taught about them by Peeta. In a way, its also a sign that she was willing to actually listen and learn from Peeta (and could have also alluded to her liking him enough to be interested in learning something from him)
Yes thank you for making me remember this! Such a powerfull moment. They made other scenes from different points of view in the movies, so I don't understand why not to include this tho.
@@Pirates.27it's mostly time screen sadly. because for the bread scene to happen you need an introduction to the types of bread and Peeta needs to talk about it. Or have a way of showing the viewer this. Because of a simple rule: "do not assume other people are on the same page" so they can't just go and show them a piece of bread to Katniss and say "Rue's family sent it to you" because also, that makes it lose meaning. The idea that she paid attention to Peeta. To other districts. To all that. Needs screen time. And sometimes it's better to cut off things. 😢
@@dandelion_witch makes sense to me. There was not much time to even introduce the other districts apart from one liners in the carriage scene so most people who didn't read the book would not even remember the significance of the d11 and that they are agricultural.
Also, the fact that she is able to figure out which district it came from, due to seeing it in the Capitol, and specifically says “my thanks to *the people of District 11”* to the camera. Not just “Rue’s family.” The *people.* They could see that she saw them, acknowledged them, _remembered them,_ and that probably meant a lot.
I think the things that fuck me up every single time are the scenes where people make the handsign at Katniss during the victor tour. Those people know they're going to die- they know that they're sending a message that will get them executed. You can see it in their face. But also in their face is "I don't want to live having not said this. I would rather die letting them know that _we aren't giving up either_ than live hoping they Just Know." And it shows during the rebellion sequences. Sure, they intended to take down the dam with 13- but singing The Hanging Tree? The lumberjacks using the trees as cover as they blew up the peacekeepers? It was a unified front with little to no proper back and forth not because they all hated the Capitol- though that was certainly part of it- but because they _all loved eachother._ Fucks me up man.
I hate that these books and movies were put into the “teen dystopian ” bracket. The example you gave with this comment proves why the Hunger Games is so powerful and why the books/movies should be taken more seriously by the general public.
@@jebb7054 shout out to all the actors in the crowd by the way. They *all* displayed a very _intense,_ guttural emotion during all of the scenes. All of the actors in these movies did such a GOOD job- they had a talented cast all around.
The beautiful irony that gaul is right: the games did reveal humanity's true nature. And it revealed that, no matter how horrific the circumstances, empathy always wins.
When you were talking about Cesar Flickerman, I couldn't help think of something in the books. Where Katniss thought back on how Cesar would during his interviews get the tributes to tell personal things about themselves. Like how one girl told him about playing piano. And then the capitol put piano strings in the cornucopia as a weapon. Allowing another tribute to kill the girl in question with said piano strings. Another way to dehumanize the tributes, and making any personal thing about them as something that can be used against them. Especially when you then think about how victors were supposed to have an 'interest' that was then focused on in their victory tour, as a part of turning them into celebrities, another form of dehumanizing them.
I think that The Hunger Games is a perfect analogy of the soullessness of how celebrities are created, they are turned into a spectacle, chewed up then spat out, no matter what cruelty they're put through or what cruelty they themselves are guilty of they're expected to put on a show and become dehumanised
I think this is something a lot of people don't get about Taylor Swift. Whether you enjoy her music or not, her grip on sanity and empathy is insanely good considering what she's been through. Her documentary "Miss Americana" is a really, really good watch.
@@maryv5815 That documentary is a lie, the world is more like THG, they are all actors, nothing they do is real, and all of them are closer to be from capitol or first districts, they eat you if they could and love their position
If you dump a bunch of random strangers in the woods with a book of survival techniques, they'll pull together and help each other survive. It would'nt be a utopia, people are still people, but they wouldn't start mercilessly killing each other either.
@annistar9693 Lord of the Flies is fictional and wasn't meant to be a critique of human nature in the way people usually use it. It was actually about the meaninglessness of war, and the man who wrote it made almost everything up and it wasn't really based on any real situations. Additionally, a situation similar to Lord of the Flies happened in real life and all the people apart of it worked together and survived.
@@yourshoulderdevil5229 I was just going to say this. It was even kids who all pulled together and survived. We aren't inherently evil, there are just ways the evil side can win in certain circumstances.
@@elisebrown5157 exactly. People tend to get the idea backwards. Humans aren't inherently good OR evil, it's just that good and evil are inherently human concepts. The only real "natural" ideas are life and death, everything else is just built on those two.
We are living on the Hunger Games. Imagine going to the movies to watch this with your friends on a night out...while Congo, Gaza, Ethopia, Haiti are living this life daily....which we watch on maintream and sociap media from the comfort of our homes...and our government suppress and sensor any public demonstrations frowning upon Gaza genocide. What a disgusting time this is.
This. It is sad to see people get so close to the point but look away. This isn't just about the capitol or the districts. It is about us. About imperialism and capitalism. And this IS real life.
War peace life death construction destruction. We are constantly fighting and building. Look to the Hundred Years’ War. China’s Great Leap Forward, Rome, Egypt, Mayans, The Crow, Arapaho, BarbaryCoast. As a very small sampling.
I think that's why characters such as Effie and especially her assistants were so important. Because even Katniss, despite it all, could see how genuine they were as they "cared" for her. I think it's so smart to make those kind of characters not perfect and unlikable antagonists, but just people who, just as katniss, grew to be who they are because of their environment. I feel like every character in the hunger games had this thing that you've perfectly explained, that in different circumstances, they could've been each other.
Yes to this. And Katniss when she found out the rest of her prep team were being tortured by district 13 immediately stopped it as soon as she found out. Even though Coin and 13 thought she’d want them to be tortured.
I like how the Third Quarter Quell, in Snow’s arrogance and need to eliminate Katniss, violates a lot of these rules: 1. It showed the victors were still only slaves to the capital, despite their better status within their districts. 2. The extra ‘rewards’ are now gone. The only thing they have to gain is their lives, but they all know that even if they win, their lives still won’t be their own, so what’s the point? 3. They can all relate to each other much more easily. Their from different districts, but they have all suffered and been punished by the Capital, so their is a more natural unity between them. 4. They have, in many ways, become masters of manipulating the Capital, and by putting them all in the same place, it made it so much so that it made creating and planning a rebellion that much easier.
Put that way, I'm reminded that the Quarter Quell gimmick of having returning champions might have been Heavensbee's idea - a subtle, sneaky nod to his ulterior motive.
They did not give the capitol much of a choice. The capitol could not allow people to see that it's power can be defied again. As for snow, he saw Lucy in Katniss and that haunted him. He just wanted her dead
great points! and i can't help but think that after years of being victors and mentors, they all knew each other and some of them were friends!! so they were much more likely to care for the others, even in the arena
As much as people have been critical of the love triangle I do appreciate the Hunger Games portraying the politics of media ans performance reinforcing the social norms and economic status quo.
I think the love triangle in hunger games is actually really well done. Mostly because it doesn’t really exist in the same way most do, there is no question of who will be picked or some dumb will they or won’t they dance. At no point in the story does Katniss have any romantic feelings about Gale all of the tension in it comes from Gales side of things. It’s actually a pretty good subversion of the typical love triangle you see in YA. It’s also worth noting that she really doesn’t develop much in the way of feelings for Peter (or at least doesn’t realize she has) until they are out of the games. It’s not until the cameras are off and they both are trying to heal and forget that any real relationship begins to form.
I personally never saw it as a love triangle. Gale represented home and peace and forests and hunting, a quiet future where Katniss could one day braid Prim's hair for her wedding day. Peeta cared deeply for Katniss, and her for him. But for most of the book, she's a traumatized teenager. Romantic love isn't a priority when she's so busy trying not to die or trying to prevent her loved ones from dying.
I think the live triangle works well as a metaphor,partly because Katniss doesn’t seem to ever actually have romantic feelings for either throughout the book; with Peeta it was a show she put on to survive and with Gale it was basically her trying to do what she thinks he wanted bc she’s scared of loosing him, and outright rejection may do that. But as a metaphor, they represent the two reactions she could ace: Gale is angry, vengeful, and doesn’t care that in order to make them pay he has to sink down on their level. Peeta represents peace and hope, because he is kind and diplomatic. I think the fact it’s a metaphor and the fact that, even though she does care for both in some capacity, she didn’t like either of them romantically for the majority of the books makes it sets it apart from a typical love triangle trope
Yeah it's interesting because Katniss is in survival mode for nearly the whole trilogy so feeling romantic towards anybody is out of the question, there's no room in her brain for it because she's too busy just trying to survive
@@Ahoyyy_aprii gave this exact explanation almost word for word in a speech i gave abt the hunger games… you’re so right. it’s not a love triangle, katniss outright says she doesn’t have the time to think about that. it’s her choosing whether she wants to solve her problems through violence or through healing, so gale or peeta. it’s amazing.
Another thing, exchanging goods for more odds of getting reaped is an incentive for districts to keep having children and not a district suddenly dissapear. People need children to exchange goods because there is an age limit.
OH wow I never thought of that! All through the books Katniss keeps saying she never wants to marry or have children because she'd never watch one go through that. I always wondered why everyone didn't have her same attitude. But then again, tesserae weren't a generous portion. I don't think it would offset the cost of having children to feed all year.
@@Marialla. I looked at the Hunger Games wiki page on tessera to refresh a bit. Katniss' family struggled a lot, she took a tessera for herself, her mother, and her sister every year since she was 12. You could only take one per family member, and the yearly entries carried over into each year. I remember part of the shock of Primrose being reaped was because she never took a tessera. Maybe the stress over the years of being her family's caretaker, risking her life for grain and illegal hunting, is what made her not want kids, not wanting them to have to take the same risks to feed her. I realized, the year Katniss volunteered, neither of the chosen tributes ever took a tessera - Primrose had Katniss, and Peeta had the bakery. Even though Katniss had 20 entries that year, Gale had 42 (he was the oldest of 4, and had his mother), and other children with more family members could have had even more entries than them. I wonder how other families in District 12 were. If most children end up taking tessera for their whole family, I think that would put less pressure on each individual child.
That's so interesting to think about.. I think it also gives the Capitol, and the tributes, an illusion of personal responsibility. The tributes chose to take out tesserae, knowing this could happen to them. It absolves the Capitol of part of the responsibility for the Reapings. of course, if they have tesserae to give out then they have the resources to supply the Districts with more food than they actually do. this is just another form of population control.
I am a homeless IV drug addict. I have been for the last six years, straight, since I was 20 years old. I grew up solid middle class, had an alright childhood, but have always had at least one abusive person in my life destroying my self esteem. I am also trans, which destroys both your own and others ability to empathize with you as a real human being who has the same innate value and right to exist as every other human being. I transitioned at 13 years old. I have always been used to being an outsider, and up until my 20th year, I was able to almost tirelessly argue for my own humanity-I knew in my heart that I deserved what others did, even if I wasn't always treated that way by others. I was able to find friends and community in so many places, even if it did come less naturally than it did for others. Upon becoming an addict, everything changed. It took me years and years to catch up to it, mentally, but I was IMMEDIATELY ousted from every single community I had, including my own family. I hadn't even done anything wrong. I hadn't stolen from anybody, I wasn't mean or rude or brash or disrespectful, I was just as honest and loving as I have always been. But suddenly, I wasn't worth the same as I had been. I wasn't worth anything at all unless I was sober. And upon realizing the depth and breadth of this in our society-again, taking years to set in-I became distinctly... unable to truly believe in my own value, any longer. It has been six years. My parents and sister do not care whether I am living or dead. We had loving relationships before. I am still raw with the awful truth of this, constantly wondering why they don't care if I am safe, warm, fed, healthy... alive. I know, if the situation was reversed... I would do anything in my power to help. Most people like me are like that. When you are on the street... yes, you will meet some monsters. Every strata of society has monsters, and severe poverty plus addiction does not afford the luxury of always being able to take care of your own needs, much less others. But more often than not, you will meet angels among men. No matter how little someone might have, as long as you're together, you've got half of whatever they have. I am the same. I would rather go hungry and make sure someone else eats at least a bit. I would even rather be a little sick-which, truthfully, if a suffering that no human should ever have to endure-than to have to watch even a complete stranger go through it. I recently was left by my partner of three years. They were abusive. Just like my last partner. I loved them both with my whole heart and would have done ANYTHING for them-and more often than not, I did, suffered for it, and was then punished for feeling anything at all. I couldn't escape, because I had no other support, but more importantly... because I no longer feel like I am worth anything at all, and just want to feel loved, no matter the cost to myself and my wellbeing. Listening to this... I kept feeling so heard, and yet so silenced. It is so shocking how easily people will listen to people who are not like me, will even listen to total fiction, over the lived experiences of those who are living the same or similar horrors every day of our lives. More often, we are seen as the least accurate purveyors of our realities. We are treated like children or animals who must be controlled, caged, "allowed to hit rock bottom"... anything other than dignity, humanity, real support and love. When that is what we need. Unconditional support. Unconditional love. Unconditional medical treatment. Unconditonal respect. That is the only way. I hope one day I get that. I will likely die far before than. I'm sorry for the wall of text, and that I don't have a better note to end this on. If anybody read all of this... please, treat people like me better. You have no idea how much suffering a human being can live through, or the damage that can do to a person's ability to appear put together, hygienic, or even sane. We are all just beings thrown together on this earth without our own consent, rocketing towards death-the difference you could make in this lifetime is so, so, so much bigger than you believe it could be. - ❤
I encountered a fascinating phenomenon. When watching the original Hunger Games (the 74th), we the audience for the most part only really empathize with Katniss and Peeta, the characters we have followed and know best. The only real exception is Rue, because Katniss cares about her. The other characters are for the most part are unknown, and so we don’t feel for them quite as much. But when i saw the Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes, that all change. The movie put us behind the scenes with them. We saw kids with disabilities. We got to see and hear their fears and complaints. My boyfriend sobbed for the girl with Down Syndrome. Humanizing makes death hurt. Sensationalizing it makes you numb to it.
Yeah i feel like the Ballad of Songbirds ajd Serpents showed way more how cruel the games are than the THG trilogy (IN THE MOVIES, the book was fine), which makes sense on how the main thg games was focused on the love triangle, meanwhile in tbosas you're just "GIRL HE'S BAD GET OUT OF THIS RELATIONSHIP" the whole way and it let's you focus on the actual worldbuilding However I will say as a child I always sympathized with foxface too, but Katniss also does in some moments so it could've helped, another thing is that Katniss herself doesn't focus a lot on the others as much as herself, she's more introvert than Lucy Gray so she doesn't notice other people as much. Its just so interesting on how different both books are ciskhakcj
Oh that is such a good way of putting it - humanise vs. sensationalise. That's what Flickerman does so well - sensationalises. He gives people the sensation of caring, the sensation of tragedy, or romance - without any real substance. Which is what makes it entertaining instead of horrifying.
These books and movies remind me that terrible things can befall a society if two conditions are allowed to persist; apathy and nihilism. When people are inundated with horrible things on a daily basis, eventually empathy becomes exhausted and people become more apathetic. Then that apathy can be used as a tool to whittle down people's hope for the future to a point that nihilism sets in and when the majority of a society is filled with both, that's when evil can take over. As the saying goes: "All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing." Now I'm not saying that this will happen to everyone, there's always going to be some who have the mental fortitude to stand against it, but it makes it harder to fight when the majority is overwhelmed with those two factors.
I truly believe that’s exactly what’s happening right now Palestine, Congo, Myanmar, the Uighur Muslim concentration camps in China, Sudan etc these wars are all ongoing and when you research why it’s just as pointless as the games and we all watch a lot of the evil and violence in the world go on and even if you do care there is a feeling of hopelessness because once you start caring where can you stop? So for many it feels like apathy is the only way to survive.
@@beneesodeinde5170 Very true. There is so much horror going on in the world, and the world itself is being destroyed along with the future of humanity. But you have to deal with your own problems too and there is only a tiny bit of energy left to maybe do something, but you exactly that this tiny bit will change exactly nothing. Because the governments already don't care about you, so how would you try and convince them to do anything?
I think one of the most horrifying parts is the fact that there is truly no escape. Any act of retaliation, such as ending your own life, will end in the punishment of the people you love. It weaponizes your humanity for the people you love most
As a big survivor fan, I can't help but notice some parallels between survivor and hunger games. At one point in a reunion show, a survivor player said that the show might be entertaining to the viewers, but there's real people involved and real relationships ruined. And the audience booed her and she had to leave.
When you talked about the capitol turning the residents of the districts against each other, you reminded me one something. For the first quarter quell, the capitol made the residents of the districts pick their own tributes. Which not only meant that if you were picked, you felt incredibly betrayed by your own people, but also that you knew who or how many wanted you gone. This was a genius move by the capitol because it's the **first** quarter quell, making its twist feel deeper and have a bigger impact. Dividing the districts' communities ensured another uprising wouldn't come for a long time.
That was a genius move on multiple fronts... 25 years... Thats a periode of time were a completely new generation is born so that all the participants have nothing to do with the original inted why the hunger games are hold... By deciding who will fight at the capitol turns the people of each district against his neighbours... By doubbleing the tributes the greive is more than doubbled because noone stands alone and this way the districts will hate each other even more because they kill one another... But the third one was a big mistake... The victors are idols to both their districts AND the capitol... The victors know each other and they know what each individual was going through... Victors so to speak are their own district... Kinda... And sending them to fight each other was doomed from the beginning... Even without Katniss...
If Snow hadn't left it to Plutarch (double agent who probably knew that sending in the Victors would plant the seeds of rebellion in the capital), he probably would have chosen a better plan. My idea for a quarter quell to ruin Katniss' image as the symbol for the rebellion, is to have the Victors hand pick the tributes. No drawing, unless if there's more than one male or female victor. Then draw the victor's name to decide who picks. Then, the girl victor HAS to choose a girl tribute, and the boy victor has to choose a girl tribute. That's how you ruin a symbol of revolution.
Another aspect of the Careers that I find disturbing is that they are being raised as weapons. They're being trained and prepared for the slim chanve that they may fight in the games. If they not picked all that was for nothing. If they do end up Victors, they are left with nothing. Their whole lives were built for that game and now along with the PTSD, they have to rethink their purpose in a seprate way from the other districts.
As a depressed teen, I actually fantasized about being a tribute. Being forced into a situation where I have no choice, and I'll either end up rich and famous, or dead. No mediocre in-between. I think you did a great analysis of the series, and brought up a lot of deeper meanings I was only partially aware of. But I think there's also a perverse appeal to something like the hunger games for people in dark places mentally.
I mean, I can actually totally get where you’re coming from but there are some pretty bad ways to die in the games. You won’t be so happy about it when you’re in extreme physical agony. But I get what you’re saying, it takes away your own personal hesitation and forces your hand on it.
What differentiates The Hunger Games from all the other book-turned-movie dystopian stories is how CLOSELY it hits home and how justifiable the societal systems in place are. Using the reality TV format and exploitative celebrity culture that we are so used to and then pushing it as far as it can go to create this... such a genius idea. A lot of other books just relied on a gimmick that didn't really have a logical explanation or added supernatural uncontrollable elements to justify why society had become the way it did. But The Hunger Games is just our reality amplified. In a similar way to the early seasons of Black Mirror, seeing the elements of our current society reflected in the story is what makes the movie so fascinating (and scary) to watch.
the in depth nature of this analysis is particularly striking. the broad to the narrow, i never recognized how specifically calculated the games was especially in the original trilogy. the prequel added some important background on not only the games creation but the inexplicable cruelty of snow’s character. i believe if he never got involved the games would’ve just faded into nothing, so the fact that snow was obviously passionate about creating the spectacle of the games we see in the original three movies is why i see him as an innately cruel character. but what is also interesting is that they do show some empathic parts of his character, which vaguely foreshadows (although it’s a prequel) the defiance caused by an act of love per katniss and peeta. its extremely interesting how it all ties together and this video essay put it into better words than i ever could. extremely well done! i absolutely cannot wait for the new movie. this story will live forever.
Something I noticed about the "love story" aspect of the games is how it's portrayed in the movies. When peeta and katniss aren't truly in love their surroundings and clothes are dull and grey and dark and when they are in love or when someone is like finicky and Annie they are in bright light and clothes
Katniss valunteering is remarkable as she is the first volunteer in her district. That means that all those other kids were never rescued by a family memeber. Imagen the guilt, grief, relief and self hatred the siblings of the reeped felt. They could sacrifice themselves for their sibling. But they don't. Just like Peeta's older brother doesn't volunteer in his brother's place. This also turns them against eachother. In the reeping it is every man for himself. But Katniss defies that. She does what no one ever dared to do before.
the horiffic thing is that in this current world you have to put aside your empathy to survive yourself. Nobody wants to exploid workers in china by buying from shein, but they can't afford good clothing, nobody wants to put others down but sometimes you have to just to survive
I think it's the opposite actually. Buying from Shein makes you complicit for the cruelty to the workers. Amplified by how most clothes from shein are just temporarily in trend and terrible quality. People buy from Shein to mostly stay in trend, and turn a blind eye to the cruelty of doing so. And then justify it by talking about how hard it is to buy clothes even though you could easily spend the same amount of money of multiple, soon to be out of fashion, terrible quality plastic clothes, for one or two high quality pieces that are timeless and last years. But no, People prioritze shein for the sake of feeling beautiful over the livelihood of the workers and uyghurs, a ethnicity going through a genocide. People who buy from Shein are the capitol in this scenario, make no mistake.
One of my favorite scenes in the first movie was when Haymitch was hanging out in the capital and saw a family with the boy play stabbing his sister and he just watches them with this look of disgusted hate
Which I feel is SO ironic. Capitol kids think it’s all “fun and games” so to speak. So the boy stabs his sister. Then we’ve got Katina’s, who knows the hunger games are a real threat, and risks her life for her sister.
People say that The Hunger Games is a rip-off of Battle Royale, but......not really. Battle Royale's themes are more about the fear and hatred of young people and what they might be capable of. The Hunger Games' themes are more about society's desire to always be entertained, the glorification of violence in media, and children being used as tools and symbols by both sides of the conflict. The tributes in The Hunger Games are trotted out and made into national celebrities in the weeks before the Games, all to make the ordeal as much of a spectacle as possible. This doesn't happen in Battle Royale (as far as I remember, it's been years since I watched it). If I remember correctly, a lot of the details of the Program in Battle Royale are kept secret from the public. Everything about The Hunger Games, however, is broadcasted on national television, to entertain the Capitol and scare the Districts into submission. Everything, from the tributes' names, their Districts, their rankings, and the bloody violence of the Games themselves are put onscreen for the entire nation to see. If anything, it feels less like The Hunger Games is a rip-off of Battle Royale, and more like it pointed at the people who watched that movie and thought it was cool and called them out on being entertained by children killing each other for sport.
I wish Suzanne would write more books about the other games, but she said she only ever writes them when she has commentary on philosophy, etc. I also unfortunately think the response to Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes will make Lionsgate less likely to blindly accept a movie deal like they did when the prequel was announced. This series has so much MORE potential that I doubt we’ll ever get to see because everyone’s so worried about it not being “as good” as the original trilogy, which is an impossible bar and we should just move on and explore what else there is that can be told about the world of Panem.
I never got the hate both the film and the book got. They are both extremely well written in their own right. When both the book and film were announced the fans were furious because Snow, the villain who we all hate, was the protagonist and not someone more loved like Haymitch. The film especially received hate because people thought it was just another cash-grab poorly written attempt at reviving the franchise like many other studios have done recently, completely forgetting about the book. Now people want a Haymitch film to be made, I can see it happening because Haymitch was the prequel protagonist a lot of the fans wanted.
@@Garage-Catto Honestly I wish we’d get an anthology Show where each Season is a different Games and the audience has no way to know who wins. Maybe start it with the 11th, hop forward to the 25th, 30-and-40-somethings, and have it lead into the Haymitch Film. Plus, those are early enough where they won’t disrupt Canon too much. You could even bring in the same Actors for cameos, I can’t remember when the Epilogue said Snow got rid of Gaul, but they could feature that and the breakdown of his and Tigris’ relationship, etc. The only thing I hate about THG Films is how they got rid of Madge and the Undersee/Donner families, it hurts any future story about the Second Quell.
I'm happy un was about Snow I mean, sure, Haymitch is cool and all, but I love that we got to take a look at what was brewing in Snow's mind It's one of the few books/movies where we get to know the villain without them being washed clean (looking at you, Disney) I did empathize with Snow somewhat but at the end of the day despite me UNDERATANDING this point of view there was no doubt he's I'm the wrong
It was truly something when the rebellion reached the capitol and not only did the citizens not know how to handle it, but they were disposable to the military. Like a fancy pet kept by Snow. Everyone was caged. Even those who thought they were at the top.
This is amazing thank you! Being autistic I don't naturally process subtext and if I try to I always come up with super abstract concepts that make me feel like I'm way off... So I really admire that skill and appreciate learning the subtext.
Oh my Gods saaaaaaaame! I'll read/watch/play a story and come out with just a 'well that was nice'. I like to watch these media analyses so I can truly appreciate them.
same! i always struggled in english class because i’m so awful at deciphering subtext 😭 i’m the same way with movies. i love listening to/reading other people’s interpretations of movies and books because i tend to interpret them way too literally
I didn't see you touch on this but I thought to mention that the capitol owns you even after you *die*. In the books it is described how all of the arenas are preserved in perfect condition. How it is all staged to show the tributes' deaths. That's why their bodies get taken away - to be embalmed and showcased for tours to the people of the capitol. Theres also the obvious lack of consent you'd expect but the way as a tribute and victor you lack autonomy over everything down to your death is exhausting. The makeover scenes always rubbed me as wrong. How the tributes are seen as nothing but product to be stripped and cleaned and viewed and made perfecr. Katniss was 16 laying on a surgical table makes being fussed over with tweezers by strange adults. And she couldn't even complain because she didn't want to jeopardise her chances at victory. After the 74 game where they are airlifted out she's put in a medical coma. They fix her ear and I believe Haymich has to stop them from giving her unconscious body a goddamn BOOB JOB.
@@renzaluski1385 yes sorry I misremembered what actually happens is that the game grounds get preserved as they were and tourists get to take part in re-enactments of the deaths
The parallel of Thresh saving Katniss because she saved Rue vs. Thresh killing Clove because she helped kill/ mocked the death of Rue, and that's why Cato killed Thresh, and then Katniss kills Cato, and Clove tried to kill Katniss... real, actual empathy versus forced violence, and the very real effects of both...
The true tragedy is that when hollywood got their grimy hands on it, they really played the part of the capitol well. The political themes were washed out and so was the commentary on society. Instead the focus WAS on the spectacle, the games and as many mentioned, the love triangle. Truly a hollywood moment. And we sat and watched it. I'm still glad to have gotten to know the story but to learn how some of the actors and fans position themselves on things such as the palestinian genocide was disappointing. You can cheer for a revolution and ridding yourself of violent oppression as long as its fictional, but the moment you have to take a real stance in real life and lose potentially real friends over it, that's when many showed how they lacked compassion and bravery.
Katniss had an incredible ability to see past societal and circumstancal pressure to always treat others with dignity. From the way she refused to kill Peeta and Rue, to how she took care of her prep team in district 13. Katniss brought down the games twice. Once with the berries, and the second by killing Coin in part to prevent a capital Hunger Games. She was amazingly empathetic and shockingly peaceful.
She wasn't just preventing another Hunger Games. She could see that Coin was yet another tyrant and that the tyranny wouldn't stop after that "final" Capitol Hunger Games.
So The Hunger Games often get grouped together with a lot of the other dystopian YA works and in a way it fullfills or even created a lot of that "genre's" clichees. The love triangle. The "teen overthrows government". The "getting to wear pretty dresses". Etc. I never liked these stories for how badly they were written in a lot of cases but for some reason I never felt like that about the Hunger Games. Even when I revisited the series, I still loved it as much as before. I thought that perhaps the Hunger Games were an exception because of nostalgia. But the longer I thought about it, the more I could see the reasons why this story isn't as superficial and badly thought out like so many others. The author truly had a message they wanted to convey. A thene to explore. The love triangle is less a situation where the main character struggles to choose one partner whilst lusting over them the entire time and more of a journey to learn to genuinely love a person and appreciate their qualities (or see their flaws). Katniss isn't actually the one doing the most in the rebellion. She's the face and the spark, but not the one holding the strings. You could even make an argument that District 13's use of her mirrors that of the Capitol in a way. And the pretty dresses? They all serve one or multiple functions. Then of course, there's also the whole political and societal angle which this video analyzes so amazingly. Really, this series has so many facetts and angles to look at and all this hasn't even accouted for the artistic angles yet, like paranoid, uneasy and dreary atmosphere you get from especially the first book/movie
I also think that the link between revolution and empathy is devastatingly under-emphasised. That the more that muscle of empathy is exercised, the stronger it gets to the point it inevitably overwhelms what it pushes against. It reminds me of eco-anarchist Murray Bookchin, who talks about the infectiousness of solidarity
One thing I love about this book series is its complexities in just about everything my favorite example is Finnick Odair. A character that a lot of people seen to adore, they always say his death was pointles and had no purpose. Exactly, but by his death being pointless it did serve a purpose. Finnick serves as the ultimate example that war is ruthless and does not care how good you were, how hard you fought, how much you endured, that you were so close to the end, it doesn't care if you helped create a victory and you want to see it, you just got married, you had a child on the way... It doesn't care. He was so close to the end and yet he died anyway, to show that death is ultimately unforgiving and often without reason. 74 (not including the 3rd quarter quell since they were existing victors) hunger games with 75 victors but only 7 survived. 75 PEOPLE. 75 lives, just for only 7 to make it out. I love how brutal and complex Susan wrote these books and truly showed that the world is complicated.
And on top of that... How many of these 7 victors are broken in one way or an other... Katniss feels hollow Peeta is brainwashed Haymitch is an alcoholic Anni mentally broken Beete sits in a wheelchair Johanna is scared Enobaria idk Thats the second tragedy
Especially in the context of "kindness is innate and human and we can suppress it but it can't be killed", Katniss is a great protagonist. Because, in the beginning, she doesn't think about staying human. From the beginning on, Peeta cares. Peeta wants not to lose himself. Peeta has a kind of moral compass he wants to keep. Katniss doesn't care about this kind of thing. She herself says that she'll do everything it takes to survive. And /yet she is kind/. She cares for Rue. She worries about Peeta even after before it is announced there can be two victors. And in the end, she is the one who makes the decision to end Cato's sufferings and the one who is /more able to empathize with and grieve for Thrash than Peeta/. And this is something that goes well through the entire series. She tries to be selfish. She tries only to care about herself and the ones closest to her. But she /can't/. She can't play the Capitol's games, even though she /actively tries/. She can't leave behind who she is, and no matter how broken and bruised she is and how helpless she feels and how much she /doesn't want to be kind/, she still is. She is the one who refuses to ally with career tributes in th 75th games. She is the one who demands Beetee and Wiress and even Maggs (who very clearly has no really "useful" skills that will ensure her survival) while Peeta manages to be more pragmatic. Katniss is not nice or friendly or soft. But she is /kind/.
I've always thought that a number of the tributes were chosen in advance for a variety of reasons. Sometimes it's spectical. But sometimes, and I firmly believe this in the case of Primrose, it's punishment. The capitol was probably very aware of Katniss hunting, and they were using Primrose to punish her for it. They couldn't admit they knew, because that would be to admit the fkaw in their regime - the unelectrified fence, the kind peacekeepers, the black market. These things are shut down later, but I firmly believe this came at a cost: things like electricity blackouts where the dangers of rebellion are high (like district 11), stronger peacekeepers being removed from areas they are needed, an overall reduction in the number of peacekeepes. The capitol must weaken itself to confront Katniss' misbehaviour head on. So they don't. They just put Primrose in the game.
Yeah, my personal headcanon for Gaul's fate is that one of her mutts managed to get out of containment, demonstrating it's enhanced hunting methods on its creator...
Suzanne Collins is such a genius in my opinion, the depth of insight into modern culture and the intricacies of her metaphor only hit closer and closer to home the deeper you look. Gregor the Overlander is also an amazing series of hers that does not get as much attention because there isn’t a movie- if you're a fan of the Hunger Games you should also read those.
@@5x5Takes I had completely forgotten that those books were also her, but now I absolutely can see it. And I feel like they put a lot of focus on the faults in hero worship, glamorizing war, etc, etc. Damn, I might have to find and reread those soon.
I read Gregor the overlander and reread it a couple years ago bc I read that when I was 9 and yet the final sequences of the last book HAUNTED ME for YEARS after the fact
@@idontneedaname318 I don't even remember how it ended tbh, either I never finished the series or I just forgot. It's possible the final book hadn't come out when I was reading through it and then I missed when it came out.
This was such a profound and beautifully put together video. Your choices of clips to match the part where you were talking about “innately more compassionate vs innately more cruel” matching up with Peeta and Snow, despite or maybe because of their simplicity, made me cry. And that started the water works. I might just be highly emotional today, but I’ll be honest- I was sobbing for the last 10 minutes. I don’t read as often as I wish. But videos like these inspire me to make the time. This analysis specifically reminded me why I adore literature. It’s all about the hidden ideas behind the words. And you communicated the message and hope behind these books and movies wonderfully. Thank you for the video. It can tell it was a labor of love and time. That said, I’m going to go reread those books.
I can’t remember where I read this, but allegedly during the very first hunger games, the tributes refused to kill each other until the peacekeeper started shooting at them. That’s not a reflection on human nature, that’s a reflection on what happens when you, quite literally and in every sense of the word, hold a gun to somebody’s head. It’s also widely speculated that the reason why career districts very often volunteer is because their youth receives training for the arena, and they would rather go into the arena trained and armed with the skills to survive than let an untrained, starving 12-year-old walk up on stage, which is a noble cause that inadvertently makes them widely disliked by the rest of the nation because they have an unfair advantage over everybody else. In an effort to protect their weakest, they kill other people’s weakest. Additionally, the theory about the games being rigged to reap specific names is not just a fan theory. It’s something that Gail openly speculates about. He mentioned how the family members of past victors go into the games a few too many times for it to be pure coincidence. There’s another theory, not one that I’ve actually seen anybody talk about yet, regarding how Dr. Gaul manufactures the games in such a way as to affirm her own believes about human nature. I really don’t think that it were the rebels who caused the bombing of the arena in the lead up to the 10th hunger games. People were starting to get sick of the games. They didn’t want to watch children’s slaughter one other on live television. The citizens of the capital were slowly forgetting how bad the war actually was, and moving on, and Dr. Gaul could not let that happen. But up until the day of the reaping, nobody knew that children would be mentoring the district kids, so were the rebels just trying to bomb their own? I don’t think so. I think Dr. was responsible for the bombing of the arena, in order to remind people that the rebels are still a “threat”. This would serve to further dehumanize the districts, to further so the seeds of the belief that they are just wild animals in need of a cage and a tight leash, as opposed to innocent children forced to kill one another under pain of being shot in the back. In a bid to Confirm that her worldview is the only correct one, she manufactures and rigs every single possible opportunity to prove her point in her favor. However, the fact remains that Snow had more than enough opportunity to believe Lucy instead. Time and time again he was shown deliberately that Dr. Gaul’s worldview is not the only one, nor is it the correct one. And he ignored every single demonstration that he was given of the innate goodness of some people. It really goes to show that despite human nature not being this horrible, evil thing, some people really ARE born rotten, and no amount of goodness is going to convince them that the world is kind, that people are decent. Even his cousin, who was shaped by the same circumstances that he was shaped by, who is also herself an orphan and a victim of the dark days, sees the humaneness of the tributes end of the districts. The time after time he chooses to ignore it.
This is an *excellent* point as well. Some people, whether through upbringing or nature, really do see the world this way. The thing is, they're also an absolutely tiny fraction of the population; they aren't present in any one specific nation or culture (although some cultures might be easier for them to take advantage of); and as the video touched on a bit, the very wealthy and powerful are much more likely to see the world this way. They also just so happen to be the people with enough influence on the world around them that they can orchestrate their own proof.
I dont think he was *born* rotten, he just chose to be so because it would benefit him PERSONALLY the most. Being Gaul's favorite student, and having the ideas he did would guarantee him a good job. In the books he didn't tell his best friend's parents that he was essentially the one who killed him, so their fortune went to him. He didn't start of as that bad, it was his choice to be cruel so he could have a benefit, so he liked what Gaul said, he wanted, at first, to believe that it was not him, everyone was like that given the circumstances, so he pushed those circumstances on others Though he did have less empathy as a whole since the start, that didnt make him be born cruel, it just aided his choices
I think the only reason he wasn’t cruel for the get go was because he wasn’t in a position of power to do so at the time. Narcissists gravitate towards positions of power, but they can’t actually DO anything until they get there. I disagree with the phrase the power corrupts. I think it’s much more appropriate to the power reveals corruption. And the more powerful snow becomes, the more comfortable he feels committing cruelty and evil, his narcissism insisting that he is nevertheless the hero of his story, that what he does is infallibly righteous and correct.
@@nicoleg2544 i dont think power corrupted him, i just think he had enough humanity at the beggining to not be cruel, but time and time again chose the wrong thing. It was more his choices corrupting him in his search of power
what i also find interesting about the changes Snow made - he experienced first hand how being a mentor to the tributes affects people, he saw his peers grow to care for these children that were going to die. he knows how horrible a position it is to be in, so it’s perfect cruelty to make the victors the mentors
One part of the books that teaches you no one is safe under Capitol rule was understandably left out of the first movie, but left me in a state of "oh my God, what did I just read?" when reading it for the first time. Rue tells Katniss about how the Peace Keepers of District 4 are monsters, by talking about how they executed a mentally disabled boy for playing with their farming tools after their work was done for the time being. As a disabled person, that is burned into my memory.
I thought about another aspect of the dehumanization or disconnection of the tributes. The fact that they call each other by their district numbers instead of their names. If I recall correctly (it’s been a while since I’ve seen the movies), Katniss was initially just referred to as “Twelve,” ofc aside from Peeta.
She was! I remember Thresh calling her 12 when he tells her he'll spare her for Rue's sake. I do not remember the others, unfortunately, but I do remember Thresh
36:39 -- "Regardless, the kind act and its potential to inspire change are always there. And if people in these extraordinary circumstances can choose it, then those of us with our much more ordinary lives, certainly can too."
The point about how the tributes go from being showcased as individuals right before the games to being one and the same in their uniforms once the games start is such a subtle manipulation. It means that people will only care about you if you managed to participate enthusiastically enough in the pre game pageantry to become their favorite so that they’ll be actively looking to follow what happens to you in the arena. It’s another way to force desperate compliance from the tributes to make the pageantry successful since the attention and love of the audience often means the difference between life and death.
I remember when I argued with my 7th grade english teacher 5 years ago, about how this was not just a love story( which she insisted it was and deemed it unnecessary to read) but how it shows the different victims of manipulations and the consequences of empathy and compassion. What I always found terrifying is the aesthetic depiction of violence and abuse of the 'victors', especially after I realized how close it is to some games my friends played. This rather easily established glorification of violence honestly scares me and will never not do so. But really great video essay, i LOVED it !!
The fact your 7th grade teacher couldn’t read into the lines is really… off-putting and very concerning. This is someone who is supposed to be teaching our children to be critical thinkers. Instead we have someone who can’t critically think themselves. Good on you for being able to look into a story more than surface level
Maybe not entirely related, but there's one very small moment from the books that always stuck with me. It's an example of the very casual dehumanization of the Capitol towards even its own citizens, and something that I could absolutely see happening in real life. When Katniss and her squad are doing their final push through the Capitol, they end up hiding in a lady's home. I can't remember if they killed her or if she was already dead when they arrived, but either way they have to move on quickly and leave her corpse where it is. A few hours later, while hiding in a different location, they watch a news broadcast about the rebel infiltration into the Capitol, and see the corpse of the woman whose house they hid in broadcast on live TV. She's laying exactly where she is, but Katniss makes an off-handed note that someone went back to re-touch her makeup before broadcast. In a society where the Capitol is portrayed as the height of perfection, of course not even a murder victim is allowed to look a bit tarnished.
*note:
I'm aware I misspoke saying the number of children--it is 23, two from each district minus one victor. oops!
Its cool! :) I am really impressed by how well thought out and written this is, as someone who wants to make videos similar to this in the future do you mind me asking how you write for such a long and analytical video?
@@ashermack2543 it really depends. do you have a specific question i can answer for you? :)
@@5x5Takes Thank you! I suppose I don't have a shortage of ideas but I was wondering if there's a certain process you have in terms of the organization of information. I know what I want to say, but I suppose I'm not sure how to place the information?
this sounds so basic, but genuinely. make an outline. it's very easy for ideas to just balloon out of scope if you write off the cuff. have a thesis statement for every paragraph, and an overall thesis statement for your essay/script. aka, if someone asked you "what's your video about?" be able to answer it clearly and directly in 1-2 sentences. and then always keep that in mind as you write, drawing the ideas Back to that thesis. also, decide how you want to go about organizing your analysis. thematically? chronologically? etc. label everything. sections and sections within sections. organization will save you a headache bc genuinely As You Write and think you'll think of more things and the last thing you want is to have word salad at the end of a google doc that you don't know what to do with.
if you have another question I will answer as best I can. also, I am One person with One style of thinking/analysis/organization--everyone has their own little flair and that's what's fun.
something I in particular like to do is, at the end of any essay, make sure I have a "so what" in the conclusion. meaning, not just summing up what I already said (youve read the script/watched the video, you don't need me to repeat myself) but make sure that I am connecting these ideas to something bigger. the "why even write this" of it all. usually some larger idea/theme/emotion/concept that brings it all together. maybe something meta. blah blah blah. anyway!
@@5x5Takes thank you so much! I think I more than often have significant ideas and interesting things to say but I find myself rambling endlessly. If I end up making a few videos I will give that a try. Thanks again for taking time out of your day to give some advice to some dude! :)
I will NEVER forgive the media for portraying these movies as "a love triangle for teens" instead of this complex and *real* look at empathy and politics
Doesn't fit their pro-war/pro-Capitalist agenda so of course they had to reduce it to a c-plot
It just further shows that women/girl-centered media isn’t taken as seriously :/
There's a reason Mockingjay isn't the popular book/films.
If the media portrayed it as it was, it would have been critiquing itself. It never would have been green-lit if it was self-aware enough to show the nuance and criticism of the media itself demonstrated in the books.
Wasn't Collins also purposely making the triangle to call out the trope? Its why Gale does what he foes in book 3 and Katniss has no ACTUAL chemistry with either and settles just because its what life is supposed to be, I got the heavy impression there is no actual love between her and Peeta just companionship
Caesar Flickerman is the character that terrifies me the most personally. The man has literally interviewed and bantered with HUNDREDS of children that he watched and commentated being brutally murdered, starved, or succumb to the elements. Yet he’s the most bombastically enthusiastic character on screen. How does a man like that operate day by day.
He's clearly delusional, the question is how much of that delusion is his own choice vs his environment...
I know this word is overused, frequently MISUSED, but I think he's an example of a genuinely sociopathic personality.
by dehumanizing them. to him, they're not really people, they're fully there for entertainment purposes and that's it. you don't have to look for this kind of behavior too far away, it's enough to look at how people talk about brown children from middle east killed in military conflict. sure, they're kids but they're the wrong color, so it's passable. caeser sees the tributes as bred for killing and being killed. nothing more. they MAY become real people if they manage to win.
@@bradleyadams5252he’s also probably on a crap ton of Uppers (think Coke, meth, and Amphetamines) to cope alongside a heaping of propaganda he heard as a kid probably from his dad Lucky.
That is his mask he has to put on every single waking moment of every day or else he will end up dead. We have seen what happened to people in the Capitol not doing their job well enough or when Snow gets bored/annoyed with you.
A public figure like Flickerman adapted quickly in order to manage to survive that long. I believe he has a dozen masks on and a million protective walls up due to paranoia because remember that Snow was a cunning dictator who kept every citizens under a tight surveillance. His main tools were fear that was constantly fed by paranoia.
Haymitch said it pefectly: if you wish to survive, make sure that people like you. And well, Cesear is loved by the entire Capitol so he has created his own survial by doing his job perfectly. Because we have seen what Snow does to people who has made a mistake or who have bored/offended/angered him.
TBH, Effie Trinket is far worse IMO. She travelled to all the districts, saw their poverty, the misery, and the dictatorship in full force with her own eyes, and still all that matters to her were the games (and her team winning because that would bring more prestige to her). Her eyes were only forced open after the rebels had captured her. She did care about Katniss and Peeta (and Haymitch in the end) but she had been willingly oblivious.
I really don’t think people pay enough attention to Katniss’ class at the beginning of the book. She’s in the lowest class of the worst district. She’s been her family’s primary protector and provider since she was 11, and knows what it feels like to starve. She’s had PTSD and attachment issues even before the games from her father’s deaths and mother’s depression (honestly, katniss’ relationship with her mother is one of the themes that I really wish could have been explored in more depths. Going from being a child to being a provider because your primary caregiver has just shut down and then having to go back to being a child due to a sudden windfall is a novel all in its own). If she was in the real world, she wouldn’t be an average suburban teen, she’d be a poor dropout in a poor area with a record as long as your arm doing 3 different semi illegal jobs to make sure her sister doesn’t have to. She’s not a middle class Everyman, she’s an EXTREMELY troubled youth who was doomed by the system even before she stepped into the arena. There are MILLIONS of Katnisses out there in the world that we’ve been conditioned not to empathize with. If the readers met someone like her in real life, they’d wrinkle their nose and hold their phones in a death grip.
I think you're close but not bang on. Katniss kept going to school. A kid today may work 3 jobs and continue school in order to be educated to support her family. Also as far as semi illegal it depends, katniss never broke a law that would hurt anyone. She didn't shoplift from rich businesses, didnt prostitute herself,didn't get to selling white liquor or morphling she only dumpster dove and sold her own things. Hunting was illegal but had no sound reason other than tyranny so she did break that law. If by semi illegal you mean run an unlicensed daycare sure I'll buy that.
"If the readers met someone like her in real life, they’d wrinkle their nose and hold their phones in a death grip." That was painful to read, but so true. Holy shit.
I was a Katniss and read the series while getting ready to deploy into combat. I came back, ended up homeless. I found that every person who offered help was like the people of the capitol with their nose in the air, using my desperation to manipulate me for mere amusement. People hate a victim and love to help kick them while they are down. People love the victimizers and will rally to support them. Than once you get back up and try again people demand you should just shut up, stay small and be grateful. MJ said it best "... All I really want to say is they don't care about us..."
@@Khaegch-favh As someone who has helped others with drug addictions and mental health issues, it's not always that other people don't care. Drugs and certain substances can take away the humanity from the abuser. They will smoke crack in the same house that you sleep in, they will steal money from your poor grandmother, and they can do really selfish actions that push people away. I'm not saying this covers all scenarios, but drug abuse, trauma, and mental health issues can also make the person suffering a challenge to engage with and help.
I am Katniss and I can confirm, people run away from us because we look like troubles to them when we're just trying to survive from the very start.
The moment on the tour in Catching Fire when the little girl says to Katniss "One day, I'm gonna volunteer just like you did" is fucking terrifying.
I could never figure out if Katniss was having a nightmare about that possibility happening, or if she was having a nightmare about what that girl said to her.
Basically I never knew if it was a real moment or not?
@@taylorparis7228 It was definitely a real moment, she was just having nightmares relating to her PTSD.
I don't remember that moment being part of the book
@@sarahlandis289 It's been a while since I've read it, but I don't think it was.
@@sarahlandis289it isn’t!
I like how also the empathy/care escalates. It's easier to care the closer we are to someone. Katniss does not volunteer for a stranger, she does it for her sister. Immediate family. When she becomes allies with Rue and mourns her, it is because she reminds her ofher sister. one step removed, but still somewhat tied to familiarity. at first she cares for the vulnerable, like Maggs and Wiress etc. then later she learns to empathize with people like Joanna too. there is a natural progression to it, from the most familiar to more and more abstract.
exactly!!!!
To further that point, in the last book, Katniss even begins to have understanding for the citizens of the capital. While it still feels alien to her, she can still view them as people who are scared and who have been wronged by the same system as her. They may not have faced daily poverty like her or subjected to the horrors that were The Games, but they were still trained to see the world a certain way
@@book-hoarder5664which is why she takes a stand against the grey haired woman (i forgot her name) that was the leader of district 13, because she realized that they also deserve empathy
@@Me-vn3gzPresident Coin?
@@Me-vn3gz President Coin
Not many people talk about him or even remember him, but I often think of Thresh and the way first he saved Katniss's life by killing Clove, and then he let Katniss go when he could have killed her himself, just because she had tried to protect Rue and honored her after her death. That's not only one but two wasted opportunities to have Katniss killed, yet he chose TWICE to give her another chance to live in a game when only one person can make it out of the arena alive. That stuck with me as the biggest display of human compassion in any of the games, and in many ways I think Rue was the catalyst for all the events that took place afterwards.
Thresh will always be one of my favorite characters he was real for that.
I don't remember where I read it, but someone said " The Hunger Games showed an entire generation that the most revolutionary thing they could do was to to be compasionate."
Apparently lefties on tweeter didn't get the memo. Or misread it to be compassionate to their own, but not the the "others".
Problem is that ppl are compassionate towards those they relate to or are similar to (whether appearance or ideological) or for their own benefit (missionaries) vs universally compassionate. It will largely remain that way as humans to their core are tribalist.
It’s easy to be universally compassionate when things are good. When things start crumbling we go into self preservation
@@trevntiand yet time and time again humans in worst of situations decided to be universally compassionate.
@@trevnti ''It’s easy to be universally compassionate when things are good. When things start crumbling we go into self preservation.'' What is your answer to that?
@@ceterisparibus8966 my response comes from Terry Pratchett (excerpt from a longer quote which i hope you'll go find and read) "Then turn selfishness into a weapon! Make all things yours!" I am safest when i have a community and a world that is structured around protecting everyone, and because i am a part of my community and the world I have a responsibility to that protection as well, not just for myself but for everyone.
My still favorite scene in the entire series is when Peeta takes the victor out to the water and tells her to look at the sky so she can focus on the colors while she is dying- he was already such an empathetic person to begin with but that scene was so well done because he gave her a last moment of true joy and peace before she died.
NO ONE EVER TALKS ABOUT THAT AND IT KILLS ME
I loved Peeta. I thought he was such an interesting and well rounded character. Privileged yet damaged in his own way. Observant and cunning, but without the same hardness that gets revealed in Gail later on.
A little late to the party, but this ultimately is proof that Gaul's theories were wrong- when presented with suffering and violence, Peeta chose to show compassion to someone he was supposed to fight to the death. Fair enough, the tribute wasn't attacking him with a club as Snow was in BoSaS, but even so, when Peeta could have shown no mercy, he chose to view her as an equal.
And the sky was fake but hope was real
Ikr
"I make a list in my head of all the good things I’ve seen someone do. Every little thing I can remember. It’s like a game. I do it over and over. Gets a little tedious after all these years, but there are much worse games to play." ― Katniss Everdeen
I sob every time. My family probably thinks there's something wrong with me. We watch the movies about once a year and I'm surprised they don't all leave the room before the last line to avoid seeing me break down.
yea.
For me, the trafficking of Victors really drives home the fact that they didn't win at all- they just lived to see another day of being owned completely by the Capitol. (Also, it's definitely a tactic to keep the most popular Victors under control)
As the saying goes: "Out of the frying pan and into the fire!"
It's a choice between being a slave doing hard labor or a slave in a harem. Most of us would rather be in a harem having sex all day and our beauty pampered than working 16 hours days, every day until you are worked to death
Finnick said it himself: The moment you leave, you're a slave.
This is kind of just what it means to be the plaything of the rich and powerful. How do you leave somewhere when they flew you there on their private plane? How do you ask for something they've said you can't have when they pay all the staff? How do you refuse a request when they just casually gave you some spending money the equivalent of half a years work at your old job? The trap for the winners is so obvious in hindsight.
Yes, this!
There's a moment in The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes that really stuck with me. In the arena, the main antagonist is Coral, one of the tributes from district 4. By all accounts, Coral is in the best position to win. She's strong, she's ruthless, we see her ending tributes mercilessley, even ones she has an alliance with. She seems completely devoid of empathy.
UNTIL. It's only her and Lucy Gray left, being chased by the snakes and climbing the rubble. Of course the snakes won't attack Lucy Gray, but Coral doesn't know that, and Lucy is just a few steps ahead of her and the snakes. As the snakes are swarming her and biting her, she cries out in a high-pitched, childlike voice, begging for her life. She says, "It's not fair. It's not. It can't have all been for nothing."
This literal child sacrificed her own empathy and humanity and turned herself into a monster, just as the Capitol demanded of her, because all she wanted was to survive. And at the end, she realises that everything she did was ultimately meaningless and she is going to be disposed of anyway, just because Lucy Gray was able to climb a pile of rubble just a little bit faster. She strangled her own soul for the Capitol, and the Capitol fed her to the snakes.
god. that moment has so much power. yea
It’s such a weird ending compared to the book, like all of a sudden Gaul doesn’t care about having a satisfying conclusion to the Hunger Games which is yknow THE ENTIRE GODDAMN POINT
@@XanderMatthews-nv9zf I might be wrong here but I believe that it's very heavily implied that Gaul knew about the handkerchief. She was grooming Snow to be her successor, and she wanted to encourage him to do anything, by any means, to succeed. Even his banishment from the Capitol wasn't a punishment, but a test. She wanted to see if he could find a way to get back to the Capitol. In addition, she wanted him to lose all sympathy for the Districts- what better way than to send him there, so that his experience would traumatise him and leave him bitter? I believe the snakes were also a test. She deliberately told him about them, to see if he could neutralise them as a threat. And also, it gave her the opportunity to send him to the Districts.
@@XanderMatthews-nv9zfthe point of the hunger games for the capitol is to make the districts submissive and afraid. It doesn’t care that it doesn’t have a satisfying end, only that the district people are fearing for their lives
You see but this defeats the entire point of the books. Given the choice between predator and prey everyone runs and hides. There is no blood bath because this is the first time there doesn’t have to be one with the arena being blown up a day before they go in. There were no cameras in the tunnels. Sure they made allies and eventually went after each other but that wasn’t until they really had to. And that dismisses the point that Repear who was actually in the best position to win the games, he was strong and fast and the capital wanted him to be violent. But instead he harms no one. He simply drags his axe around the center of arena, actually helping Lamina, and then hiding the bodies from the capital in a respect of the dead, talking away the spectacle the capital so desperately wanted. And when Reaper finally dies at the hand of Lucy and her rat poison, the last one, we have this moment with Lucy where she simply sits down, tilts her head to the sun, and waits to be collected.
Some food for thought: in the TBOSAS book, when the bell went off and the games started, there was no instant death, instant action like we saw in the movie; in fact, most of the tributes ran away. But of course, no violence is boring to watch, right? So that’s not the way it was translated into film. Oddly disturbing when you think about it.
I don't remember if it was said in the books or not, but that scene made me think that that is why they introduced the cornucopia. With it, the games get that instant burst of action and the first few deaths to start off the show.
Sorta off topic but I always think about how in catching fire (I think it was), the capital people have a drug that allows them to get sick after being full and move room for more food. Knowing that the capital controls how much food the districts get and ignorantly indulge in more food then they can stomach is so disturbing to me. Especially since we have drugs similar to that today that really are only accessible to people who can afford it.
@@Howlzffffdd the only thing I want to say is that why do people spend money on some "medicine" to vomit when there are very easy two fingers in the mouth.
Do not recommend any method, if anything
Well in the book much more tributes died before they even entered the actual arena...
In the movie all but 5 were still alive and they - that sounds so cruel now - had to get ridd of 6 more tributes on screen at the beginning of the arena
Got chills near the end when you were talking about compassion and love in the games being its own downfall. I read somewhere:
"at the start of The Hunger Games, Katniss was terrified of Prim dying young and Peeta was terrified of the capital changing him. By the end, Prim died anyway and they changed Peeta in all the ways he was scared of"
In the end nothing mattered. But it all did. Nothing was changed. Everything was changed.
man.
when i reread the books i realized pretty quick that every single character loses what they wanted, haymitch just wanted to be drunk and left to die but couldn't, katniss just wanted prim to live and she didnt, peeta didnt want to change and he did, joanna makes an offhand comment about not wanting to fry and thats exactly how they torture her, finnick wanted annie and a life outside the game and he lost it all, gale wanted katniss and lost her, snow wanted the games to continue and they didnt, coin wanted power and lost it all in the end, hell effie even just wanted to be famous and get into higher ranks in the capitol before katniss and peeta show up, nobody "won" in these books, they survived
@@nope19568 well except maybe Plutarch
@@RoSizzle true plutarch was mostly alright at the end lol
And Cinna, he just wanted to make sure the Capitol remembered Katniss. He may have died, but he sure did achieve his goal
Another way the dehumanize the tributes in the later games is that they wear a uniform. Lucy really stands out in her dress and it shows her personality. Also when they die the picture in the sky states only the number of their district and not their name.
Not a person anymore, just another number...
They're only a statistic to the capitol, a demonstration to their power
Oh wow
I doubt it. They have gone through trial and error in the games, and if a tribute dies too quickly because of something boring like frostbite, heat exhaustion, etc it makes it not fun for the capitol population. So they give them a set of clothes that are fitting for the environment. Of course even in the books their "uniforms" don't look exactly the same like the movies show
@@бронза.вафля.конус I wouldn't doubt the uniform thing is intentional dehumanization; I think katniss mentioned in the book that there was this one arena w/o trees and the tribute froze. Maybe an earlier one before snow was in power.
The Hunger Games is one of the few series where the main character having a child at the end actually means something extremely significant. Even in our real world, I feel uncomfortable forcing a child into it. So imagine, after all that trauma, still knowing that the world was finally safe enough to have a child, means something real.
Have you read history?? It has never been easier to raise children. We are surrounded by food and shelter
@@janelleg597 there are children dying in schools, and you say this is easy?
yes because in the first movie Katniss even said to Gayle that she's never having children. So her having one in the end definetly means that the world changed for good and got much safer
@TheHypnosBunny dude, a couple of children dying tragically is not comparable to what our ancestors suffered during say the 30 years war, the black plague or WWI and ll.
At least in the west this Argument of I don't want to bring kids into such a terrible world is just bs. Now I want to force nobody to have kids, but just admit that you don't want any for lifestyle reasons only.
You know, I had a long explanation written for how life in some areas of the western world, despite your grand delusions, are actually literally hell on earth for the people trapped living there, and yes, fuck you, I DO mean the word "trapped" literally, and that's without the fact that about 500 rich corporate fucks are making sure the entire planet is going to slowly kill us all no matter where we are on it. But the way you talk marks you clearly as someone who refuses science and worships at the altar of alternative facts. So you aren't going to listen to an argument no matter what anyone says. But I do congratulate you on the sheer privilege of being able to believe that being born in a certain hemisphere of the planet automatically grants you a good life.
The scene where Katniss says “Panem today. Panem tomorrow. Panem forever,” while everyone in the district she’s talking to is screaming at them is so haunting.
(Maybe a not so) fun fact, thats a rewording of a part of an unfortunately very real speech made by an anti civil rights politician during the Jim Crow era south, where the infamous hook of the speech was “segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.”
The person above me is talking about George Wallace
accurate representation of celebrities on twitter
@@darceyconway3061
no way “twitter bad amirite” is the main takeaway you got from this piece
@@watching7721yep, Governor of Alabama
Cato’s death in the books is so sad. He ends up at the hand of the capitol’s mutts ripping him apart for HOURS only stopping when Katniss mercy kills him
They weren't even tearing him, he was wearing body armor that protected him ankle to neck. So likely he lost his hands and feet and then beyond that they were effectively bludgeoning him to death
@@fangsabrei can remember why hunger games gave me an existential crisis about death back in middle school after reading all the comments recapping the book
And let’s not forget that the mutts attacking looked LIKE THE OTHER TRIBUTES. So he’s being attacked by (things that look like) the people he murdered for HOURS. It’s a special kind of horror that the movies didn’t touch on, either for the rating or the fact that they wanted to maintain the illusion of the spectacle for some meta commentary.
@@fangsabre iirc they were moreso dissecting his body while avoiding vital organs and, by time Katniss aims for the head, he looked like a meat with a face
@@4niasomnia573no they WERE the tributes, the bodies were mutated into the mutts, I almost cried when I read that Katina’s found Rue’s mutt.
I'm always thinking about Coral's final lines, as she was dying she cried out "It's not fair, I can't have killed them all for nothing." and she was right, she killed so many people in that arena, had such a good chance of survival, and yet she died like the rest of them, unable to change anything at all
It reminds me how you think that rich women would be safe from crime but even money doesn’t really protect woman from violence
I still couldn't bring myself to sympathize with her. Not because of what she had done but the way she had done it.
It's one thing to realize that your only chance of making it out alive is killing others and doing it for self preservation.
It's another to stab an alleged teammate and mention how conveniently easy it will be to kill an 8 year old child while smirking.
It may have been an act to convince herself and her teammates of her actions (same way she mentioned to Snow how she'd kill his songbird next in order to hurt him) but she just displayed a level of cruelty that doesn't make me believe that killing the others was such a difficult thing to do, in a sense deeply regretting it. But of course she's still only another child and victim of the system.
I haven’t read the books in a while so I have no idea who Coral is
My favourite character is Cinna. Who humanised someone the other stylists see as a living corpse that they need to make pretty, when he walked in he resurrected her from the make over 'slab'.
Cinna was such a gem, I wish more people analyzing HG turned their eyes toward him
He really was wonderful and the actor portrayed his character beautifully - a quiet compassionate genius. I don’t think anyone who just sees the films realizes how much work he put into curating Katniss’ image as a starstruck young girl to keep her alive. With all the designs he’d made ahead of time for the rebellion and the mockingjay dress, he had to have known he was likely signing his own death warrant.
Cinna deserves so much love. He’s pretty much the only person who shows Katniss actual humanity in the Capitol. He doesn’t sugarcoat or pretend to be able to save her, but he does everything he can to give her some dignity back
Also underrated is that he works in fashion. Not only is it an area that men get mocked for working in, but it tends to get poo-pooed compared to other arts. And yet here it’s shown that, like the other arts, it can make a political statement.
It’s been a while since I last read it. Is that how they describe Katniss? Because she was starving?
There’s also an interesting part of the books that explains that the ENTIRE district gets food parcels for a YEAR if one of their tributes wins to “reward them” for producing a victor.
I think this is such an interesting detail because even if you’re entirely against the games, even if it’s someone you know or love in that arena, you can’t look away. You can’t help but root for them, because if they win, you win too.
It’s such an interesting way to make those in the districts still want the winnings of the games, even if it comes at the expense of incredible violence.
Because there’s always that chance that feeds on their desperation. That possibly creates resentment to those who weren’t “good enough” to win, and also that intense alienating idolization to those who DO win.
TOTALLY.
just wanted to tack on that its about food
literally food, daily nutrition sustenance and survival
not luxury, not a single crumb beyond the idea, just another years worth to keep doing the same thing that both partys know they'll claw for
@@jamescanjuggle i think that is mentioned multiple times, and it's such a symbolic detail! Panem is Bread in latin. each district has its typical bread. the games are called the Hunger Games, not only because tributes may starve and are hungry for victory, but because the reason they are hungry for victory is that they are phisically straving where they come from. they starve every day they are not in the Capitol and everyone back home starves too. and if you win you won't starve any longer. your family won't either. for a year, your distric won't starve. a lot of attention is placed on food. something so basic but that not everyone has. collins really went for the most baseline theme and turned into a masterpiece. the amount of passages where katniss comments on the amount of food the capitol people consume or have at their disposition is incredibly big. and that's precisely one of the things that makes her angrier: that these people don't know how lucky they are to have food.
It also serves to make the district people feel morally complicit. "Look, you wanted your people to win, and when they do you benefit as much as anyone! You are not fundamentally different than Capitol folk." It's very similar to when someone complains about capitalism the response is, "Well if you feel that way, quit spending money!" These are systems that 99% of people cannot opt out of and yet that system works actively to make compulsory involvement feel like complicity.
And then there is the capital who has more food than they can eat.
Cato is particularly tragic because he's essentially punished for doing his job too well.
He trained himself to the point he was the strongest, most ruthless, and most likely to win. But this, paradoxically, made him less likely to win, because audiences like to root for the underdog. The Capitol understood this, and rigged the game in Katniss and Peeta's favor by letting them team up, putting them at an advantage. To win a fight to the death, you have to become cruel, but being cruel makes the audience like you less, and the audience can sponsor your competition, which is exactly what happened.
The system turned against Cato because he did exactly what it told him to do, and he seemed to have realized that just before he died. Heartbreaking.
I didn't see that in the movies at all. Capitol audiences didn't root for underdogs. The audience had always loved the winners for their "glory" and success. That's why a high score was so positive, because it got you more sponsors. Katniss got sponsors, not Peeta. Because she was skilled and high scoring. They got sponsors together later because of the entertaining true love angle. Cato lost because they teamed up and beat him. Not in the slightest because he was brutal and powerful. We have no reason to believe he didn't get a ton of sponsors because high scorers typically do. We just didn't follow his day to day during the games.
@@mariposa9506 i believe **at first** the audience rooted for Cato, favoring his brute strength and powerful cruelty. But after Katniss and Peeta won over their hearts with their love and compassion towards one another, they switched sides and turned on Cato.
@@toasturhztoastbunz896 it had nothing to do with compassion, they just wanted a romance story in terms of entertainment. It's offers variety from the regular years entertainment.
But they didn't put Cato at a disadvantage. That rule change happened when two pairs of tributes were still left in the game. It made Cato and Clove team up harder if they could just kill the other pair. If they had win the capital would've done the same thing but they probably would've murdered each other instead of stage a suicide.
The capital also LOVES blood thirsty killers, they don't just root for an underdog. Both Peeta and Katniss got high scores, they were seen as possible Victor's the entire time
What always mystified me was how Capitol citizens could see children being murdered by each other as sport and entertainment but the moment Peeta announced Katniss was pregnant, that is where they suddenly grew a moral conscious and saw the deaths as inhumane.
I think that’s exactly how Americans view pregnancy. They will make legislation on women’s bodies and within the medical community to “protect” the baby but when that baby is born they don’t really care anymore.
Reminds me of the anti-abortion crowd. The idea of a child's life is more valuable to them than an actual child's life. Saddening, really.
@@zer0w0lf94💯
Because it shatters the illusion of choice, before then the tributes “chose” to enter their names additional times, they “chose” to survive, they “chose” to win.
But with the introduction of an unborn child who had no say in the matter in the eyes of the capital, the illusion is shattered.
@@zer0w0lf94basically that.They dont even care about the orphans
The 3rd quarter quell bringing the winners together was the greatest act of arrogance the capital ever made, and this video explains perfectly why that is
it was partially organized by a game master working to bring down the system. It failed intentionally
Messed up as the games are forcing them to do it all AGAIN is pure evil
@@Balrog-tf3bgand stupid as well. So far they had gotten away with manipulating poor, inexperienced _children_ . The tributes of the 3rd Quarter Quell are nothing like that, they are adults, they are "privileged" (perks of being a so-called "victor"), and above all they are SURVIVORS. They know the ropes, they probably have inside contacts in the Capitol, but most importantly they have *so much ANGER* that it should have been so obvious from the beginning why it was such a bad idea... Arrogance, cruelty and stupidity are not a great combo, yeah.
The best part is, the Capital didn't even make that move. At least in the films, it's shown Plutarch retrieving the third Quarter Quell paper, reading it, and then burning it.
The implication being that Plutarch wrote down the whole "bring previous tributes back" thing for this express purpose. And I think that's masterful, and also adds to the idea that certain tributes are chosen for drama value. Like, what are the odds that every tribute in on the plan for rebellion is thrown into the arena? In fact, Haymitch initially intended to go in because he was aware of the plan...Peeta, who didn't know about the plan, fucked that up by volunteering.
It was definitely a bad idea. Like she said, they made a separate culture of the victors and expected them to do it all over again. But that culture, as small as it was, was unified by very similar experiences of abuse and oppression. That unity was their downfall.
The way prim tucks her shirt tail in because katniss told her to before they went. Omg so good
I always thought it was this unfair symbolism of, "pull up your big girl pants." Seeing such a tiny, frail girl accept the role of sacrificial lamb was so gut wrenching. Panning to Katniss's face filled with horror put you in that universe. You felt the desperation and sickness of it all. That scene always makes me cry.
One more major thing - the glamorization of the tributes actively causes the Capital citizens to view the poorer districts, 11 and 12 particularly, as more well off and put together than they actually are. Basically sweeping the harsh reality of the truth under the rug. While simultaneously turning the district against their own representative, literally seeing this child you watched grow up in your community, maybe you even know their parents, work with them even, and suddenly they’re on TV everywhere. Dressed in elaborate, exaggerated, and eccentric clothes, getting chumming with all the people who belittle and oppress you. I wouldn’t be shocked if the parents of Tributes were subject to harassment and even assault due to this.
Your first point about downplaying the struggle in the districts is a good idea, I never thought of that!
But the folks in the districts knew what was going on and if I remember correctly from the books, families of the (poor) tributes were actually given more care and comfort during and immediately after the games. I could've sworn I remember there being a line about those who could would bring food.
@@MrsNgabire oh also i remember a line that said the entire district is rewarded when its tribute wins! it didnt go into full detail im super curious now! i think they just got more food and resources, maybe funds, idk
@@dazey8706from what I remember the victor district basically gets a feast and extra rations for the one year.
so it's real life then
@@fangsabre Art imitates life: the relatives of Russian KIA in Ukraine get a sack of potatoes.
I've always thought Effie's detachment and uncomfortable cheerfulness is, at least in part, a defence mechanism of sorts. I don't know how long she's had this job for, but surely meeting these kids every year, introducing them, guiding them in some way, and then watching them die has to affect her at least a little bit. So where Haymitch became an alcoholic and cynical to numb himself, maybe she dissociates and detaches herself, hides behind a bubbly and cheerful mask to make it less real.
I totally agree. I got the same impression for most of the capitol crew closest to the games. We see it most brilliantly in Cinna, of course, but I see it a bit in Stanley Tucci’s acting. I always wished we could see these people undressed of their shields, what are they like at home? What thoughts go through their heads as they try to sleep?
EDIT ADDENDUM
And one more thing! That’s always what makes me appreciate the character writing for Seneca so much, even though we get so little of him. He’s new blood, he doesn’t understand the true amorality yet.
Effie was Capitol, Haymitch was district, their conditioning was very much different. As well, Haymitch was a Victor and harmed by participation in the arena, Effie did not experience such things...
Wasn't it her first year? That was why she was excited and also in charge of the lowest district, right? I might be wrong but that's how I remember it.
I think you are absolutely right, because if you see her and Hamich say goodbye to each other at the end, gone is the face facade completely. She became a normal human being.
@@protatype7487why did you say EDIT ADDENDUM LIKE it’s an scp article
I'm rewatching rn and at the chapter about the volunteer system, and I find this small detail so haunting - Peeta has *just* watched Katniss, the girl he is so in love with, volunteer not only for "games" that mean almost certain death, but he has watched her volunteer to take the place of her sister to protect her from that same fate. Yet when Peeta is chosen, he is even more alone in that crowd because despite the fact that they *could* , his own brothers will not volunteer for him like Katniss just did for her sister.
To think that so many children have been reaped, yet have also been plucked from siblings and putting the moral dilemma of volunteering on *them* , other children, probably forever cursing them with surivivors guilt as they watch their sibling enter the game because they *could have* volunteered if they wanted to, adds an entirely new level of cruelty and mental torture to this system.
edit: formatting
I’m sure we will learn that Madge’s mother feels that very same feeling about Maysilee when SOTR comes out.
If cruelty is human nature, why are most examples of it artificial?
In most situations, even incredibly desperate ones, collaboration is the best strategy even just from a strategic position. Humans are herd animals; we can't do a lot on our own and need a large support structure to survive. So a situation where betraying someone else is actually beneficial is very rare unless specifically created.
You know what usually happens during natural disasters? People band together to support one another. To help the young and elderly, to save neighbors and make sure everyone survives. You can see that during basically every natural disaster. Even countries that are bitter enemies sent aid in situations like these.
People only turn on each other during unnatural disasters. Where people starve while the shelves are full of food. Where everyone could make it but only a few are allowed to because of arbitrary rules. These kinds of disasters are always really strange to think about. What actually happens during a financial collapse? The amount of food, housing and other necessities is still the same but access to it has been made more difficult. It's a weird effect where the more I learn about the economy and how it functions on both macro and micro levels, the less it seems real. Knowing how inflation works doesn't make a situation where people starve because they can't afford the food that is still there any less stupid.
Cruelty isn't human nature because in nature it's almost never beneficial. It only appears when the powerful create a world where only a few can win and unity is dispelled with violence.
I’m probably too cynical because of current events, *BUT WHAT IDEAL WORLD ARE YOU LIVING IN?!*
@@eatatjoes6751 Trust me I know how fucked things are currently. Our world is horrible and it makes the people that inhabit it do horrible things. But it's not “natural” and it's not the only way things can be. And yes positive change is possible. It feels ridiculous to say it isn't while living in a society with the advancements we take for granted. Every civil right be it social or worker focussed was fought for by people who came before us.
Yes, I recommend u the book Humankind. It talks about the goodness of human nature
Good and evil isn't something intrinsic to nature, it is a concept invented by humanity and the ideals of it are constantly shaped over time.
In the end, we are all animals trying to survive, cooperation and violence are both avenues that can lead to that survival.
In a situation where cooperation is punished, violence reigns
In a situation where violence is punished, cooperation reigns.
The very examples you cite of cruelty are *not* artificial and they subvert your point. It's true that collaboration is the best strategy, but it's the best strategy precisely *because* evil and cruelty are natural. Even in herd animals, the strongest don't attack the predators to protect the weak; they out-run the weak to protect themselves. "Collaboration" in this context is banding together with the other strong and fast animals to abandon the weak and survive by sacrificing a few. That's cruelty manifesting as collaboration.
One of my favorite quotes on this subject is that, if they could, a 2-year-old would kill you for a cookie. We don't teach children to be evil, we have to teach them to suppress their evil, self-interested nature. We do this not because we want what is best for them, but we do it out of self-preservation. We don't want to raise generations of psychopaths. We want some cookies, too.
This is an aside, but can we talk about how Stanley Tucci NAILED Cesar Flickerman? Every time he was onscreen, I was both amused and repulsed. Truly the most slappable man in the entire Capitol.
He was BRILLIANT. I can't get over it. I never watch these movies without thinking about how he absolutely NAILED that role.
Apart from Snow himself
100% agree, he's a GOAT actor and this was still a tremendous feather in his cap
one of the sadder parts of desensitization in the ballad of songbirds and snakes is in the beginning of the book when snow just thinks that his cousin Tigris, was able to repair his shirt by selling her body in a passing way, as if it is a regular thing and nothing to care much for
I always found it a little unnerving watching the TV promos for the last two movies in the mid-2010s. It almost felt like a parody of the spectacle critically examined in the books, but turned real on the screen in my bedroom. As if the advertisers were blissfully unaware of how much they were missing the point.
That may of been there idea, I doubt it but they could of been like imitating the capital in a way
Life imitates fiction, especially in our world slowly turning into the capital itself, but take into consideration that maybe this type of advertisement and presentation might be necessary to survive in the a capitalist society we live in today. This film would never have reached the many eyes it has today if not for the flashy love triangle crap. But luckily for us now, we all enjoyed the films for what they presented us back then, not realizing now that we see in between the lines of their ignorance and once again we realize that capitalism will produce its own downfall.
THANK YOU omg I’m not the only one who is weirded out by it. Like the thirst to watch haymitch’s games and finnick’s games. Like the point isn’t the hunger games. The point is the events leading up to the perceived necessity of the games
@@susanasabino Capitol collection, specifically. And a subway add that was equally as tone deaf in its own way, it was so jarring seeing those ads air.
Being in thrall to the Capitol = being in thrall to capital.
Just as you said "if you honor your own humanity, you doom yourself", an ad came on of a teenage-looking influencer twirling and smiling in a red fast-fashion dress and it just fit that moment perfectly
horrific frankly
Sometimes, I absolutely love the RUclips algorithm. Sometimes, I abhor how much it has deduced.
it's just a clothing ad 😂 "im 14 and this is deep" 💀
@@RED-my9hlbegging you to use what few brain cells you have floating around in your head and think critically about the world around you
@Grey_3438 omg im a yty 14 year old and this is so deeeeeeeeeeep bro
In “The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes" we learn the origin of Snow's infamous quote, "It is the thing we love most that destroys us." I find it interesting that it wasn’t really lucy grey, but his own twisted game that ultimately led to his own bitter distruction.
i loved the part where you talked about compassion and empathy rippling outward and that being the downfall of the games. snow tries to discredit katniss and the rebellion by describing katniss as just "another face plucked from the masses"... but he doesn't understand that that's exactly what gives her power. katniss is from the poorest part of the poorest district. she is another child, just like the many children of the districts, faced with misfortune and poverty. and the district people see themselves in her. one of my favorite parts in the books was when district 11, struggling and poor, sent katniss a roll of bread after she mourned and humanized rue in the games.
i also appreciate you touching on how effie is sincere in believing that the games are a symbol of the capitol's generosity, and how capitol citizens, while to a much lesser extent, are oppressed as well. in the books, katniss genuinely cares for her stylists, as morbid as they are, because she sees them as naive and weak, and recognizes how while they are complicit in the games, they are desensitized to all the violence. the district people and the capitol citizens are oppressed in two different ways. capitol citizens have to yield their power to snow in exchange for their "bread and entertainment" or "panem et circenses" and if they step out of line, they can be executed just like seneca or cinna.
Oh you reminded me of the scene in catching fire where katniss' styling team has to leave the room one by one because they can't stop crying. Even THEY see it as cruel to send someone they thought was safe to care about back in, but still have to do their job.
i believe katniss describes them as something along the lines of colorful, odd pets or birds or something like that, which describes them pretty well
One must never forget that in systems of oppression, the oppressors are just as much victims of the system as the oppressed. They may wear chains of gold, but they still live in chains. And if they throw off their chains, they will suffer just like the oppressed.
That doesn't make what they do okay. But it does make it understandable.
I had to take a second and compose myself after you said, "some people seeing the games as risky - but doable - escape from poverty" because it's just like the military. I come from a place that is mostly in poverty, I think the rate a couple years ago was 80% of families where I lived were under poverty, and I saw it play out everyday. Areas like mine are targeted by the military with tactics that focus on "saving your family".They show up to your school and they ask you if you want to take care of your mom, or siblings, or if you want to go to college. They show you all the ways you could escape, if you only lay down your life and risk yourself. You too can be a hero for the low low cost of your sanity and life.
Edit: Even careers are a perfect depiction of the other side of the coin to army recruting.
All of this sealed by the fact that you're no longer allowed to join the military once you're a full adult. I know the reasoning but its just very curious that most places stop wanting you after your brain is probably fully developed.
Anecdote: I went to an underfunded Philadelphia public high school, majority black and otherwise not white students. We had an "Army day" that was so surreal I felt nauseous the entire time. It was clearly recruitment nonsense, but dressed up in "do these fun exercises with your friends. If you like it you should sign up for the military!!!". There was so much about free college and employment benefits, and absolutely nothing about how it's... you know. The goddamn US MILITARY. Everyone who went through 1. Had to sign up and give their contact info to the military recruiters. 2. Got DOG TAGS at the end of the obstacle course. Genuinely one of the most disgusting things I've ever witnessed, I was so viscerally angry. And it was so so clear they were targeting a population that couldn't know any better. They were targeting 15-18 year olds with poverty and dysfunctional families. Preying on peoples' desperation is especially disgusting.
winter's bone (2010) also has jennifer lawrence trying to escape generational poverty in a rural area (plot point was considering the military). very interesting parallel between these two movies
@ bellaroo5508
Daniel Woodrell was born and now lives in the Missouri Ozarks. He left school and enlisted in the Marines the week he turned seventeen.
Some of the events in Winter’s Bone happened in his life according to an article I briefly perused.
Something they played upon during the horrible fake Vietnam war where they shipped in thousands of poor and black kids to be canon fodder knowing that they would not survive as they didn't have the drive to survive and were probably too empathic given that they were all in the same situation. This way the military used their death numbers to scare other more 'valuable' soldiers to go in a fight and leave behind any of their own empathy when taking revenge.
Where are you from?
"We can make you pretend to enjoy it " wow what a fantastic description..pretty much sums up social media
Honestly goes to show why The Hunger Games is one of the few YA dystopias to have stood the test of time. Suzanne Collins took the time to craft a story and world that are genuinely complex and actually have something to say, as opposed to what most of the knockoffs did, which was essentially, "Hey, let's throw a bunch of cool and edgy teenagers--preferably straight and white and in a love triangle--into a scenario where they have to overthrow an oppressive government and hope it sells"
Like "Maze runner" 😂😂
*cough* divergent
Just wanted to say I love your pfp. Also, yes, Hunger Games is actually insanely good. I almost cried, I *never* cry over books. I almost cried at Rue's death.
Straight and white cus that’s like 90% of readers lol
@@Mara_Jade-SkywalkerThanks! ❤
i never noticed the chain of kindness weaving through the story. it makes absolute sense that it was Snow's downfall. It is something he could never envision especially after Gaul groomed him and it became a threat he couldn't prevent or stop.
Also Gaul and her personal trolley problems is such a good way to explain it. She does the same thing when grooming Coryo; she put him in trolley problems over and over again, and gets insanely good at getting the outcome she wants, then attributes his actions, the outcome she engineered as a "characteristic of humanity undressed".
Suzanne Collin's work on Nickelodeon and in the entertainement industry, the way she writes about the treatment of children in media, which she must have seen with her own eyes is.....when the nick docuseries came out, and rereading catching fire, the links between what we read about Finnick and the other victims and what we see on tv right now, i wonder how long it's going to take us and the entertainement industry to stop exploiting these poor children. Man, Suzanne Collins, the author that you are!
Thanks for putting into words why I love these books so much. This is an incredible essay. Well done!
I feel like Finnick's storyline is so underrated, because prostitution is a really hard topic to talk about, especially to a younger audience. I never considered the Nickelodeon connection, but in light of the recent developments it can very well be an inspiration.
I had no idea Collins worked for Nickelodeon but... wow that contextualizes so much
“Someone for whom kindness is too costly” I never thought about that aspect in this light before, the difference between Katniss and Peeta’s opportunities to think outside survival mode, to rebel. Brilliant analysis!
I just realised watching your part about mentors: Haymitch could have been at most 17 yo when he participated and won.
I mean, I already felt sympathy and grief for this grown man who is clearly suffering but to imagine that a *17* year old had to immediately begin coaching the year after nearly dying is…. Unimaginable.
It makes me feel bad for previously laughing at his alcoholism. But to be fair, the movies def wrote it through a comedic lense :/ I should know better, that when a person has good comedic wit, they are also good at masking their pain with the same ability.
Plus, I remember how people said he always smelled bad, and him insisting that he bathes. Stress hormones make your natural odor smell very unpleasant.
Exactly, and until Katniss and Peeta there weren’t any other victors from district 12. So he just watched two people he had to mentor die year after year. And as he grew older, those kids looked younger and younger to him. When I was a teen, 18-year-olds were full adults to me. Now I’m in my 30s and they’re so young.
Trying to be the distant a…hole was probably his way of protecting himself. If the tributes don’t like him and he doesn’t like them, he won’t suffer as much once they inevitably die.
On the other hand it might be even harder to deny those kids the only support they have. Of course they cling to him like they’re drowning cause they pretty much are.
I think I’d be drinking too
I think Haymitch was 16, I could be wrong on that but i remember it being said in the book but that could’ve been Katniss speculating I don’t remember.
It’s worse too because not only did he almost die and experience that trauma, his whole family was killed 2 weeks after because he won in a rebellious way so he had to mentor other kids with so much trauma and losing his family… like I can’t imagine how he managed to go on, I don’t blame him for becoming an alcoholic it’s the only way he could stand to be alive. He definitely would’ve tried his best to help the other kids but it would be so difficult to witness kids you’ve mentored die year after year, especially being from district 12, the odds are not in your favour at all. No wonder he basically gave up.
@@spider-woman9482also yeah, the movies are amazing but I don’t think the movies showed how bad Haymitch’s alcoholism is. It was more comedic and he seemed more put together movie wise. Whereas book wise people think he isn’t as likeable because he could be very mean a lot of the time, and his withdrawals are bad. You could feel how much of a struggle it is for him, and even after the war he never stops his drinking either
IIRC, Haymitch was 14, one of, if not the youngest Victor of the games. Because he used the containment barrier against his opponent, allowing the girl to kill herself accidentally, the game makers needed to punish him for using their set against them, it made too much of a statement. So then they killed his family and his 'girl' friend to keep him in line, friendless and alone.
And now with ABOSBAS out, it's even clearer that Snow wanted revenge against District 12... Nothing good (for him) could come from 12. Every other District had multiple winners, even the other poor districts like 11... But Haymitch had no one to prepare him, and from then on, he was the only one to be able to help out, but with the raw material he would have most years, it would be a losing proposition. And one that I bet Snow fostered against 12 as a whole, even before Katniss arrived to upend the rule he'd so carefully created and maintained.
EDIT - I was wrong about Haymitch's age; he was 16 - thanks to the commenter who corrected me.
I always loved that Susan made a Male Victor a victim of Sex Slavery. Sure they could have done that to a Female Victor but in a Dystopian society that would have almost been expected but we rarely if ever see Men put in that position.
yeah actually i cant name any other media with a character that was sex trafficked as an underage boy, despite that being a more common occurance than people might think
Sex trafficking of underage males is actually a huge issue. A 2008 study found that 50% of sexually exploited children in NYC were boys. Western culture and media continue to promote the idea that only females are victims, that guys are “strong, empowered, etc.” Unfortunately, this means that boys who need help are often overlooked. And apparently it’s a global problem as well. It would be helpful if more movies and media helped call attention to this.
Reading Finnick's account of his sexual abuse in Mockingjay is always super powerful. I wish that the movies had gone into more depth with Finnick because he loses a lot of likeability in the transition. He's still great, but nothing like Book Finnick
I never read the books (which I plan on changing) but I don't remember me picking up on that aspect at all. So I think you're totally correct there.
@KaiTheMemeKing I agree. When I watched the movies I felt finnick was a side character. I didnt care as much about him. But reading the books I absolutely loved his character
What Peeta says about showing them they don’t own him and how he wants to die as himself is a truly important moment in the story. Katniss says she doesn’t have the luxury to think like this, but at that moment her eyes are opened. Thus she begins her search for meaning (if I may refer to Frankl). As for humans being bad, Lucy is right. During WWII, people dehumanized other people completely, but in spite of this environment there were ordinary people (ie not soldiers) who risked their lives for perfect strangers. There was no reward for this, only danger and the possibility of death. And yet they did it. Why? Because if they were going to die they would do it being true to themselves. I enjoyed your analysis very much! Thank you for taking the time to make it.
The clip of the boy with a sword stabbing his sister is honestly sad because even as children they view the hunger games as a fun game that they want to recreate like I wouldn't doubt if they played school games about the hunger games which forms a fondness for it even before they can comprehend it
it’s like little kids playing war with nerf guns, it’s horrific
@@dream_walker9726how to say you’ve never had to provide food for yourself without saying it. Hunting for dinner or starving is a reality for many people now and through history.
@@anonomas6126 I’m sorry? How is this relevant to what I said or what was being discussed?
Cowboys and Indians. Cops and robbers. Lots of kids games are dark reflections of the violence we normalise.
@@anonomas6126 how to say you didn't read the comment you replied to without saying it.
The Hunger Games was in the school reading curriculum when my daughter was in the 6th grade. I was mortified. I read it first. Then we read it together, taking turns reading aloud. We discussed it thoroughly after each reading session including researching the author, political history and psychology of oppressive regimes. Other parents got the book removed to a higher grade level but, in the end, my daughter and I learned a lot. Now as an adult, she is a deeply critical thinker and social activist.
The Hunger Games is a really hard series for a reason, and if not read and discussed correctly can go over some heads. My parents were furious after seeing the first movie because, unlike the book, it lacked a lot of Katniss' internal monologue, and they didn't understand the story as much as I tried to explain. When later movies came out is when it clicked for them. I'm happy I was a preteen when this series was a sensation. I just reread it as an adult, and realized how much my current worldview is still affected by it. And I am so grateful. I think, growing up in the US, I could have fallen into the trap of being naive about conflicts and wars and how it sacrifices youth to keep the powers that be in place, had this book not stuck with me from such a young age. Thank you for doing the scary thing of confronting the story together. I am sure your daughter will continue to be an incredibly empathetic and critical thinker as she grows.
Props to you for taking the time to read it with your daughter 👏🏼❤️🩹
@@eveangelyne2478by some miracle the empathy does not manifest in the topic of Ukraine
@@ramsa01Yt ? you may have to clarify what you mean by this. It appears that you assume this comment lacks empathy for Ukraine and its youth? When they are clearly victims of a war that has also robbed their youth of their lives, safety, and beautiful country. This also goes for Russian youth that are drafted in a conflict that shouldn't have been. But that goes for all wars, even though I cannot possibly list each and every one in a singular youtube comment. Those in power don't take the fall as the young people at the bottom are sacrificed for the egos of old men
I compliment you
Respect👍
Another perfect example of the capitols "threadbare empathy" is actually one of my favorite scenes from Catching Fire. When Peeta announced "oh no, Katiness and I are married... and btw, she's pregnant". The capitols citizens were aghast in the audience, not because they were sending a teenager, their favorite couple, or even a pregnant teenager to the arena, but because they can't send a BABY to the arena! Someone literally shouted "STOP THE GAMES" for an unborn child.
Honestly, it was brilliant commentary on the current pro life vs pro choice argument. The unborn is a perfect vessal for empathy because they haven't had the chance to become anything. As pastor David Barnhart said: "You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone.", and that applies perfectly to the capitol citizens. They can't advocate and apologize and stop sending teenagers and children to the arena, because doing so would challenge their own perfect little worldview. They can't advocate or help Katniss and Peeta, because in doing so would mean the love story stops, the tragic romance of literal star-crossed lovers(actually love that for a time, this was used correctly btw) ends, they loose their entertainment value, their wedding ,their everything. But a unborn baby? A unborn baby that hasn't had a chance to exist, that won't challenge their worldviews, but in the same time is so perfectly innocent and would be reasonable to stop the games for? Oh, that unborn child is the perfect thing for the capitol citizens to be aghast at.
It's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant writing.
The fact that you used pro life vs pro "choice" as an example reflects more about the current situation of our reality, we live the quite opposite of the last games, I wonder if this is how it all begins. I mean... I'm not denying your posture and your lecture about the pro-life, yes, a lot of them seem to be hypocrites, but, what about the pro "choice"?, they are so desensitized they don't see a baby as a human being, and the termination of their lives a decision base on logical determination, emotions aside it's just flesh, not even human flesh. So I don't see the capitol people worried about the "baby", they love the killing, the problem is that Katniss and Peeta were already victors, and they were too close to the heart and empathize with them, it was unfair as it breaks the gameplay, the one that they live in so destabilize the way they see their own lives, they feel attack by the capitol and vulnerable, LIKE A BABY... so it wasn't an abortion of a district folk, it was a killing of a desire capitol baby.
My point is that we are ready prepare for such games since half the population don't see kids as something to protect but some choice of the fathers (mother), and the other just pretends they care because it messes with their protection of their lives and some false sense of defend something thats "related" to them because they can't express a self-opinion jet, like districts divided on gruops of interest. In that case pro choice are the capitol, and pro life would be the districts.
@@estebanospina3190 your argument inaccurately assumes a lot about the pro-choice camp. we are happy when our friends who want children are able to have them, we happily pay taxes to support public schools, etc. The thing is, a cluster of cells is not a child, and should never take priority over the mother's body.
Did you know that it is illegal to use organs from freshly dead corpses to save living peoples' lives unless the person agreed to be an organ donor?
And yet by forcing people to carry unwanted fetuses, they are being dehumanized, with fewer rights than literal corpses.
This is a brilliant analysis of the story. The movies did an excellent job of translating the books to the screen, but I always regret one of the small things they left out: that after Rue's death, Rue's district sent Katnis BREAD. In the book Katnis figures out it's from District 11 because of the type of bread it is: what it's made of and how each district has different. 'signature' bread if you will, due to what they have available to them to make bread from. The idea that a district of extremely poor people pooled their resources to they could send the girl who survived an attack that killed one of their own children is a HUGE step at the idea that people are starting to see other districts as not their enemy. It's a show of solidarity among people who are expected to view each other as rivals, as enemies. It was one of the most powerful moments in the books, for me, and I was so sad they didn't put it in the film. I understand why they did it, since it would have been hard to translate Katnis's point of view narrative that gives most of the information about that event, so the screen where we can't hear her thoughts. It's a logical thing to leave out. But I'm sad nonetheless.
What’s also interesting about that bread scene: the only reason Katniss even KNEW what each district’s “signature bread” was is because she was taught about them by Peeta. In a way, its also a sign that she was willing to actually listen and learn from Peeta (and could have also alluded to her liking him enough to be interested in learning something from him)
Yes thank you for making me remember this! Such a powerfull moment. They made other scenes from different points of view in the movies, so I don't understand why not to include this tho.
@@Pirates.27it's mostly time screen sadly. because for the bread scene to happen you need an introduction to the types of bread and Peeta needs to talk about it. Or have a way of showing the viewer this. Because of a simple rule: "do not assume other people are on the same page" so they can't just go and show them a piece of bread to Katniss and say "Rue's family sent it to you" because also, that makes it lose meaning. The idea that she paid attention to Peeta. To other districts. To all that. Needs screen time. And sometimes it's better to cut off things. 😢
@@dandelion_witch makes sense to me. There was not much time to even introduce the other districts apart from one liners in the carriage scene so most people who didn't read the book would not even remember the significance of the d11 and that they are agricultural.
Also, the fact that she is able to figure out which district it came from, due to seeing it in the Capitol, and specifically says “my thanks to *the people of District 11”* to the camera. Not just “Rue’s family.” The *people.* They could see that she saw them, acknowledged them, _remembered them,_ and that probably meant a lot.
I think the things that fuck me up every single time are the scenes where people make the handsign at Katniss during the victor tour. Those people know they're going to die- they know that they're sending a message that will get them executed. You can see it in their face.
But also in their face is "I don't want to live having not said this. I would rather die letting them know that _we aren't giving up either_ than live hoping they Just Know."
And it shows during the rebellion sequences. Sure, they intended to take down the dam with 13- but singing The Hanging Tree? The lumberjacks using the trees as cover as they blew up the peacekeepers?
It was a unified front with little to no proper back and forth not because they all hated the Capitol- though that was certainly part of it- but because they _all loved eachother._
Fucks me up man.
I hate that these books and movies were put into the “teen dystopian ” bracket. The example you gave with this comment proves why the Hunger Games is so powerful and why the books/movies should be taken more seriously by the general public.
@@jebb7054 shout out to all the actors in the crowd by the way. They *all* displayed a very _intense,_ guttural emotion during all of the scenes. All of the actors in these movies did such a GOOD job- they had a talented cast all around.
The lyric regarding “meeting” someone at the hanging tree still gives chills. It’s such image powerful solidarity and shared struggle.
The beautiful irony that gaul is right: the games did reveal humanity's true nature. And it revealed that, no matter how horrific the circumstances, empathy always wins.
It's a fictional book. Empathy doesn't won
@@tiffanywyatt5137*win
@@tiffanywyatt5137 meybe yoir empathy doesn't won bur my empthy just won me thirdy dolers
That's so true.
@@llanfairpwlgwyngyll7331 name me an empathetic rich person who donated their wealth to charity
When you were talking about Cesar Flickerman, I couldn't help think of something in the books. Where Katniss thought back on how Cesar would during his interviews get the tributes to tell personal things about themselves. Like how one girl told him about playing piano. And then the capitol put piano strings in the cornucopia as a weapon. Allowing another tribute to kill the girl in question with said piano strings. Another way to dehumanize the tributes, and making any personal thing about them as something that can be used against them.
Especially when you then think about how victors were supposed to have an 'interest' that was then focused on in their victory tour, as a part of turning them into celebrities, another form of dehumanizing them.
There is no piano strings part in the books. But your point still stands.
@@zc2908 not in Katniss hinger games, but she mentioned it as something that happened in previous years
Studies have been done to suggest that human nature is that we want to help and care for one another. Our empathy is a survival technique.
I think that The Hunger Games is a perfect analogy of the soullessness of how celebrities are created, they are turned into a spectacle, chewed up then spat out, no matter what cruelty they're put through or what cruelty they themselves are guilty of they're expected to put on a show and become dehumanised
I think this is something a lot of people don't get about Taylor Swift. Whether you enjoy her music or not, her grip on sanity and empathy is insanely good considering what she's been through. Her documentary "Miss Americana" is a really, really good watch.
@@maryv5815 That documentary is a lie, the world is more like THG, they are all actors, nothing they do is real, and all of them are closer to be from capitol or first districts, they eat you if they could and love their position
If you dump a bunch of random strangers in the woods with a book of survival techniques, they'll pull together and help each other survive. It would'nt be a utopia, people are still people, but they wouldn't start mercilessly killing each other either.
that's why the Capitol kills those who refuse to fight, and offer rewards
I come from a country where there was genocide. Neighbors killing each other. So I disagree. We're all evil to some degree.
@annistar9693 Lord of the Flies is fictional and wasn't meant to be a critique of human nature in the way people usually use it. It was actually about the meaninglessness of war, and the man who wrote it made almost everything up and it wasn't really based on any real situations.
Additionally, a situation similar to Lord of the Flies happened in real life and all the people apart of it worked together and survived.
@@yourshoulderdevil5229 I was just going to say this. It was even kids who all pulled together and survived. We aren't inherently evil, there are just ways the evil side can win in certain circumstances.
@@elisebrown5157 exactly. People tend to get the idea backwards. Humans aren't inherently good OR evil, it's just that good and evil are inherently human concepts. The only real "natural" ideas are life and death, everything else is just built on those two.
We are living on the Hunger Games. Imagine going to the movies to watch this with your friends on a night out...while Congo, Gaza, Ethopia, Haiti are living this life daily....which we watch on maintream and sociap media from the comfort of our homes...and our government suppress and sensor any public demonstrations frowning upon Gaza genocide. What a disgusting time this is.
The way Palestine holds their children up as human shields and trains child soldiers reminds me so much of the capital
@@mariposa9506 Israeli soldiers do the same. That's war.
This. It is sad to see people get so close to the point but look away. This isn't just about the capitol or the districts. It is about us. About imperialism and capitalism. And this IS real life.
War peace life death construction destruction. We are constantly fighting and building. Look to the Hundred Years’ War. China’s Great Leap Forward, Rome, Egypt, Mayans, The Crow, Arapaho, BarbaryCoast. As a very small sampling.
@mariposa9506 holy shit what a fucking cringe take 💀💀💀
I think that's why characters such as Effie and especially her assistants were so important. Because even Katniss, despite it all, could see how genuine they were as they "cared" for her. I think it's so smart to make those kind of characters not perfect and unlikable antagonists, but just people who, just as katniss, grew to be who they are because of their environment. I feel like every character in the hunger games had this thing that you've perfectly explained, that in different circumstances, they could've been each other.
Yes to this. And Katniss when she found out the rest of her prep team were being tortured by district 13 immediately stopped it as soon as she found out. Even though Coin and 13 thought she’d want them to be tortured.
in the books Katniss described having affection for them like they were pets IIRC
i honestly love effie
I like how the Third Quarter Quell, in Snow’s arrogance and need to eliminate Katniss, violates a lot of these rules:
1. It showed the victors were still only slaves to the capital, despite their better status within their districts.
2. The extra ‘rewards’ are now gone. The only thing they have to gain is their lives, but they all know that even if they win, their lives still won’t be their own, so what’s the point?
3. They can all relate to each other much more easily. Their from different districts, but they have all suffered and been punished by the Capital, so their is a more natural unity between them.
4. They have, in many ways, become masters of manipulating the Capital, and by putting them all in the same place, it made it so much so that it made creating and planning a rebellion that much easier.
Put that way, I'm reminded that the Quarter Quell gimmick of having returning champions might have been Heavensbee's idea - a subtle, sneaky nod to his ulterior motive.
Heavensbee was a master for suggesting the idea to Snow.
They did not give the capitol much of a choice. The capitol could not allow people to see that it's power can be defied again. As for snow, he saw Lucy in Katniss and that haunted him. He just wanted her dead
great points! and i can't help but think that after years of being victors and mentors, they all knew each other and some of them were friends!! so they were much more likely to care for the others, even in the arena
@@arlothe_ariel And that's why the capitol had to show people, that even victors can't afford to be kind, can't afford to do whatever they want
top-notch analysis. a lot of commenters on our videos dive into the topic or their personal stories but your script deserves praise in and of itself.
As much as people have been critical of the love triangle I do appreciate the Hunger Games portraying the politics of media ans performance reinforcing the social norms and economic status quo.
I think the love triangle in hunger games is actually really well done. Mostly because it doesn’t really exist in the same way most do, there is no question of who will be picked or some dumb will they or won’t they dance. At no point in the story does Katniss have any romantic feelings about Gale all of the tension in it comes from Gales side of things. It’s actually a pretty good subversion of the typical love triangle you see in YA. It’s also worth noting that she really doesn’t develop much in the way of feelings for Peter (or at least doesn’t realize she has) until they are out of the games. It’s not until the cameras are off and they both are trying to heal and forget that any real relationship begins to form.
I personally never saw it as a love triangle. Gale represented home and peace and forests and hunting, a quiet future where Katniss could one day braid Prim's hair for her wedding day.
Peeta cared deeply for Katniss, and her for him. But for most of the book, she's a traumatized teenager. Romantic love isn't a priority when she's so busy trying not to die or trying to prevent her loved ones from dying.
I think the live triangle works well as a metaphor,partly because Katniss doesn’t seem to ever actually have romantic feelings for either throughout the book; with Peeta it was a show she put on to survive and with Gale it was basically her trying to do what she thinks he wanted bc she’s scared of loosing him, and outright rejection may do that. But as a metaphor, they represent the two reactions she could ace: Gale is angry, vengeful, and doesn’t care that in order to make them pay he has to sink down on their level. Peeta represents peace and hope, because he is kind and diplomatic. I think the fact it’s a metaphor and the fact that, even though she does care for both in some capacity, she didn’t like either of them romantically for the majority of the books makes it sets it apart from a typical love triangle trope
Yeah it's interesting because Katniss is in survival mode for nearly the whole trilogy so feeling romantic towards anybody is out of the question, there's no room in her brain for it because she's too busy just trying to survive
@@Ahoyyy_aprii gave this exact explanation almost word for word in a speech i gave abt the hunger games… you’re so right. it’s not a love triangle, katniss outright says she doesn’t have the time to think about that. it’s her choosing whether she wants to solve her problems through violence or through healing,
so gale or peeta. it’s amazing.
Another thing, exchanging goods for more odds of getting reaped is an incentive for districts to keep having children and not a district suddenly dissapear. People need children to exchange goods because there is an age limit.
OH wow I never thought of that! All through the books Katniss keeps saying she never wants to marry or have children because she'd never watch one go through that. I always wondered why everyone didn't have her same attitude. But then again, tesserae weren't a generous portion. I don't think it would offset the cost of having children to feed all year.
@@Marialla. I looked at the Hunger Games wiki page on tessera to refresh a bit. Katniss' family struggled a lot, she took a tessera for herself, her mother, and her sister every year since she was 12. You could only take one per family member, and the yearly entries carried over into each year. I remember part of the shock of Primrose being reaped was because she never took a tessera.
Maybe the stress over the years of being her family's caretaker, risking her life for grain and illegal hunting, is what made her not want kids, not wanting them to have to take the same risks to feed her.
I realized, the year Katniss volunteered, neither of the chosen tributes ever took a tessera - Primrose had Katniss, and Peeta had the bakery. Even though Katniss had 20 entries that year, Gale had 42 (he was the oldest of 4, and had his mother), and other children with more family members could have had even more entries than them.
I wonder how other families in District 12 were. If most children end up taking tessera for their whole family, I think that would put less pressure on each individual child.
That's so interesting to think about.. I think it also gives the Capitol, and the tributes, an illusion of personal responsibility. The tributes chose to take out tesserae, knowing this could happen to them. It absolves the Capitol of part of the responsibility for the Reapings.
of course, if they have tesserae to give out then they have the resources to supply the Districts with more food than they actually do. this is just another form of population control.
I am a homeless IV drug addict. I have been for the last six years, straight, since I was 20 years old. I grew up solid middle class, had an alright childhood, but have always had at least one abusive person in my life destroying my self esteem. I am also trans, which destroys both your own and others ability to empathize with you as a real human being who has the same innate value and right to exist as every other human being. I transitioned at 13 years old. I have always been used to being an outsider, and up until my 20th year, I was able to almost tirelessly argue for my own humanity-I knew in my heart that I deserved what others did, even if I wasn't always treated that way by others. I was able to find friends and community in so many places, even if it did come less naturally than it did for others.
Upon becoming an addict, everything changed. It took me years and years to catch up to it, mentally, but I was IMMEDIATELY ousted from every single community I had, including my own family. I hadn't even done anything wrong. I hadn't stolen from anybody, I wasn't mean or rude or brash or disrespectful, I was just as honest and loving as I have always been. But suddenly, I wasn't worth the same as I had been. I wasn't worth anything at all unless I was sober. And upon realizing the depth and breadth of this in our society-again, taking years to set in-I became distinctly... unable to truly believe in my own value, any longer.
It has been six years. My parents and sister do not care whether I am living or dead. We had loving relationships before. I am still raw with the awful truth of this, constantly wondering why they don't care if I am safe, warm, fed, healthy... alive. I know, if the situation was reversed... I would do anything in my power to help.
Most people like me are like that.
When you are on the street... yes, you will meet some monsters. Every strata of society has monsters, and severe poverty plus addiction does not afford the luxury of always being able to take care of your own needs, much less others. But more often than not, you will meet angels among men. No matter how little someone might have, as long as you're together, you've got half of whatever they have. I am the same. I would rather go hungry and make sure someone else eats at least a bit. I would even rather be a little sick-which, truthfully, if a suffering that no human should ever have to endure-than to have to watch even a complete stranger go through it.
I recently was left by my partner of three years. They were abusive. Just like my last partner. I loved them both with my whole heart and would have done ANYTHING for them-and more often than not, I did, suffered for it, and was then punished for feeling anything at all. I couldn't escape, because I had no other support, but more importantly... because I no longer feel like I am worth anything at all, and just want to feel loved, no matter the cost to myself and my wellbeing.
Listening to this... I kept feeling so heard, and yet so silenced. It is so shocking how easily people will listen to people who are not like me, will even listen to total fiction, over the lived experiences of those who are living the same or similar horrors every day of our lives. More often, we are seen as the least accurate purveyors of our realities. We are treated like children or animals who must be controlled, caged, "allowed to hit rock bottom"... anything other than dignity, humanity, real support and love. When that is what we need. Unconditional support. Unconditional love. Unconditional medical treatment. Unconditonal respect. That is the only way.
I hope one day I get that. I will likely die far before than.
I'm sorry for the wall of text, and that I don't have a better note to end this on. If anybody read all of this... please, treat people like me better. You have no idea how much suffering a human being can live through, or the damage that can do to a person's ability to appear put together, hygienic, or even sane. We are all just beings thrown together on this earth without our own consent, rocketing towards death-the difference you could make in this lifetime is so, so, so much bigger than you believe it could be.
- ❤
thank you for sharing. I hope so much love finds you
You are loved
I encountered a fascinating phenomenon. When watching the original Hunger Games (the 74th), we the audience for the most part only really empathize with Katniss and Peeta, the characters we have followed and know best. The only real exception is Rue, because Katniss cares about her. The other characters are for the most part are unknown, and so we don’t feel for them quite as much.
But when i saw the Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes, that all change. The movie put us behind the scenes with them. We saw kids with disabilities. We got to see and hear their fears and complaints. My boyfriend sobbed for the girl with Down Syndrome.
Humanizing makes death hurt. Sensationalizing it makes you numb to it.
Yeah i feel like the Ballad of Songbirds ajd Serpents showed way more how cruel the games are than the THG trilogy (IN THE MOVIES, the book was fine), which makes sense on how the main thg games was focused on the love triangle, meanwhile in tbosas you're just "GIRL HE'S BAD GET OUT OF THIS RELATIONSHIP" the whole way and it let's you focus on the actual worldbuilding
However I will say as a child I always sympathized with foxface too, but Katniss also does in some moments so it could've helped, another thing is that Katniss herself doesn't focus a lot on the others as much as herself, she's more introvert than Lucy Gray so she doesn't notice other people as much.
Its just so interesting on how different both books are ciskhakcj
Oh that is such a good way of putting it - humanise vs. sensationalise. That's what Flickerman does so well - sensationalises. He gives people the sensation of caring, the sensation of tragedy, or romance - without any real substance. Which is what makes it entertaining instead of horrifying.
These books and movies remind me that terrible things can befall a society if two conditions are allowed to persist; apathy and nihilism. When people are inundated with horrible things on a daily basis, eventually empathy becomes exhausted and people become more apathetic. Then that apathy can be used as a tool to whittle down people's hope for the future to a point that nihilism sets in and when the majority of a society is filled with both, that's when evil can take over. As the saying goes: "All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing."
Now I'm not saying that this will happen to everyone, there's always going to be some who have the mental fortitude to stand against it, but it makes it harder to fight when the majority is overwhelmed with those two factors.
I truly believe that’s exactly what’s happening right now Palestine, Congo, Myanmar, the Uighur Muslim concentration camps in China, Sudan etc these wars are all ongoing and when you research why it’s just as pointless as the games and we all watch a lot of the evil and violence in the world go on and even if you do care there is a feeling of hopelessness because once you start caring where can you stop? So for many it feels like apathy is the only way to survive.
@@beneesodeinde5170 Very true.
There is so much horror going on in the world, and the world itself is being destroyed along with the future of humanity. But you have to deal with your own problems too and there is only a tiny bit of energy left to maybe do something, but you exactly that this tiny bit will change exactly nothing. Because the governments already don't care about you, so how would you try and convince them to do anything?
Y'all complain and do nothing to help lol
@@beneesodeinde5170For me, prayer and speaking out are the only ways that I can deal with all of the overwhelming evil in the world.
I think one of the most horrifying parts is the fact that there is truly no escape. Any act of retaliation, such as ending your own life, will end in the punishment of the people you love. It weaponizes your humanity for the people you love most
As a big survivor fan, I can't help but notice some parallels between survivor and hunger games. At one point in a reunion show, a survivor player said that the show might be entertaining to the viewers, but there's real people involved and real relationships ruined. And the audience booed her and she had to leave.
Jerri Manthey, god forbid she tell Keith he can’t cook rice.
That shit looked like wallapaper paste
When you talked about the capitol turning the residents of the districts against each other, you reminded me one something. For the first quarter quell, the capitol made the residents of the districts pick their own tributes. Which not only meant that if you were picked, you felt incredibly betrayed by your own people, but also that you knew who or how many wanted you gone. This was a genius move by the capitol because it's the **first** quarter quell, making its twist feel deeper and have a bigger impact. Dividing the districts' communities ensured another uprising wouldn't come for a long time.
i want a book and movie about the first quarter quell so bad
That was a genius move on multiple fronts...
25 years... Thats a periode of time were a completely new generation is born so that all the participants have nothing to do with the original inted why the hunger games are hold...
By deciding who will fight at the capitol turns the people of each district against his neighbours...
By doubbleing the tributes the greive is more than doubbled because noone stands alone and this way the districts will hate each other even more because they kill one another...
But the third one was a big mistake... The victors are idols to both their districts AND the capitol... The victors know each other and they know what each individual was going through... Victors so to speak are their own district... Kinda... And sending them to fight each other was doomed from the beginning... Even without Katniss...
If Snow hadn't left it to Plutarch (double agent who probably knew that sending in the Victors would plant the seeds of rebellion in the capital), he probably would have chosen a better plan.
My idea for a quarter quell to ruin Katniss' image as the symbol for the rebellion, is to have the Victors hand pick the tributes.
No drawing, unless if there's more than one male or female victor. Then draw the victor's name to decide who picks. Then, the girl victor HAS to choose a girl tribute, and the boy victor has to choose a girl tribute.
That's how you ruin a symbol of revolution.
Another aspect of the Careers that I find disturbing is that they are being raised as weapons. They're being trained and prepared for the slim chanve that they may fight in the games. If they not picked all that was for nothing. If they do end up Victors, they are left with nothing. Their whole lives were built for that game and now along with the PTSD, they have to rethink their purpose in a seprate way from the other districts.
As a depressed teen, I actually fantasized about being a tribute. Being forced into a situation where I have no choice, and I'll either end up rich and famous, or dead. No mediocre in-between.
I think you did a great analysis of the series, and brought up a lot of deeper meanings I was only partially aware of.
But I think there's also a perverse appeal to something like the hunger games for people in dark places mentally.
I was a depressed teen but I'm 30 now. I know exactly how you feel because I went through it. Hopefully you'll get better.❤ Good luck.
It’s the human desire for purpose, to do something big even if it’s deadly.
I mean, I can actually totally get where you’re coming from but there are some pretty bad ways to die in the games. You won’t be so happy about it when you’re in extreme physical agony. But I get what you’re saying, it takes away your own personal hesitation and forces your hand on it.
y’all should absolutely read the long walk by stephen king!
@@songofthesea6353 you nailed it better than I could've, and gave me some insight. Thank you.
What differentiates The Hunger Games from all the other book-turned-movie dystopian stories is how CLOSELY it hits home and how justifiable the societal systems in place are. Using the reality TV format and exploitative celebrity culture that we are so used to and then pushing it as far as it can go to create this... such a genius idea.
A lot of other books just relied on a gimmick that didn't really have a logical explanation or added supernatural uncontrollable elements to justify why society had become the way it did. But The Hunger Games is just our reality amplified. In a similar way to the early seasons of Black Mirror, seeing the elements of our current society reflected in the story is what makes the movie so fascinating (and scary) to watch.
the in depth nature of this analysis is particularly striking. the broad to the narrow, i never recognized how specifically calculated the games was especially in the original trilogy. the prequel added some important background on not only the games creation but the inexplicable cruelty of snow’s character. i believe if he never got involved the games would’ve just faded into nothing, so the fact that snow was obviously passionate about creating the spectacle of the games we see in the original three movies is why i see him as an innately cruel character. but what is also interesting is that they do show some empathic parts of his character, which vaguely foreshadows (although it’s a prequel) the defiance caused by an act of love per katniss and peeta. its extremely interesting how it all ties together and this video essay put it into better words than i ever could. extremely well done! i absolutely cannot wait for the new movie. this story will live forever.
Something I noticed about the "love story" aspect of the games is how it's portrayed in the movies. When peeta and katniss aren't truly in love their surroundings and clothes are dull and grey and dark and when they are in love or when someone is like finicky and Annie they are in bright light and clothes
Yes. Completely on purpose.
Katniss valunteering is remarkable as she is the first volunteer in her district. That means that all those other kids were never rescued by a family memeber. Imagen the guilt, grief, relief and self hatred the siblings of the reeped felt. They could sacrifice themselves for their sibling. But they don't. Just like Peeta's older brother doesn't volunteer in his brother's place.
This also turns them against eachother. In the reeping it is every man for himself. But Katniss defies that. She does what no one ever dared to do before.
the horiffic thing is that in this current world you have to put aside your empathy to survive yourself. Nobody wants to exploid workers in china by buying from shein, but they can't afford good clothing, nobody wants to put others down but sometimes you have to just to survive
I think it's the opposite actually. Buying from Shein makes you complicit for the cruelty to the workers. Amplified by how most clothes from shein are just temporarily in trend and terrible quality. People buy from Shein to mostly stay in trend, and turn a blind eye to the cruelty of doing so. And then justify it by talking about how hard it is to buy clothes even though you could easily spend the same amount of money of multiple, soon to be out of fashion, terrible quality plastic clothes, for one or two high quality pieces that are timeless and last years. But no, People prioritze shein for the sake of feeling beautiful over the livelihood of the workers and uyghurs, a ethnicity going through a genocide. People who buy from Shein are the capitol in this scenario, make no mistake.
"If empathy is a muscle, then every day is a chance to exercise it"
Beautifully true.
One of my favorite scenes in the first movie was when Haymitch was hanging out in the capital and saw a family with the boy play stabbing his sister and he just watches them with this look of disgusted hate
Which I feel is SO ironic. Capitol kids think it’s all “fun and games” so to speak. So the boy stabs his sister. Then we’ve got Katina’s, who knows the hunger games are a real threat, and risks her life for her sister.
People say that The Hunger Games is a rip-off of Battle Royale, but......not really.
Battle Royale's themes are more about the fear and hatred of young people and what they might be capable of. The Hunger Games' themes are more about society's desire to always be entertained, the glorification of violence in media, and children being used as tools and symbols by both sides of the conflict.
The tributes in The Hunger Games are trotted out and made into national celebrities in the weeks before the Games, all to make the ordeal as much of a spectacle as possible. This doesn't happen in Battle Royale (as far as I remember, it's been years since I watched it).
If I remember correctly, a lot of the details of the Program in Battle Royale are kept secret from the public. Everything about The Hunger Games, however, is broadcasted on national television, to entertain the Capitol and scare the Districts into submission. Everything, from the tributes' names, their Districts, their rankings, and the bloody violence of the Games themselves are put onscreen for the entire nation to see.
If anything, it feels less like The Hunger Games is a rip-off of Battle Royale, and more like it pointed at the people who watched that movie and thought it was cool and called them out on being entertained by children killing each other for sport.
I wish Suzanne would write more books about the other games, but she said she only ever writes them when she has commentary on philosophy, etc. I also unfortunately think the response to Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes will make Lionsgate less likely to blindly accept a movie deal like they did when the prequel was announced. This series has so much MORE potential that I doubt we’ll ever get to see because everyone’s so worried about it not being “as good” as the original trilogy, which is an impossible bar and we should just move on and explore what else there is that can be told about the world of Panem.
I never got the hate both the film and the book got. They are both extremely well written in their own right. When both the book and film were announced the fans were furious because Snow, the villain who we all hate, was the protagonist and not someone more loved like Haymitch. The film especially received hate because people thought it was just another cash-grab poorly written attempt at reviving the franchise like many other studios have done recently, completely forgetting about the book. Now people want a Haymitch film to be made, I can see it happening because Haymitch was the prequel protagonist a lot of the fans wanted.
@@Garage-Catto Honestly I wish we’d get an anthology Show where each Season is a different Games and the audience has no way to know who wins. Maybe start it with the 11th, hop forward to the 25th, 30-and-40-somethings, and have it lead into the Haymitch Film. Plus, those are early enough where they won’t disrupt Canon too much. You could even bring in the same Actors for cameos, I can’t remember when the Epilogue said Snow got rid of Gaul, but they could feature that and the breakdown of his and Tigris’ relationship, etc.
The only thing I hate about THG Films is how they got rid of Madge and the Undersee/Donner families, it hurts any future story about the Second Quell.
I'm happy un was about Snow
I mean, sure, Haymitch is cool and all, but I love that we got to take a look at what was brewing in Snow's mind
It's one of the few books/movies where we get to know the villain without them being washed clean (looking at you, Disney)
I did empathize with Snow somewhat but at the end of the day despite me UNDERATANDING this point of view there was no doubt he's I'm the wrong
Honestly after the Star Wars sequel trilogy we should just be happy they aren’t making sequels
@bennelong8451 yes!
The sequels ruined the franchise for me
It was truly something when the rebellion reached the capitol and not only did the citizens not know how to handle it, but they were disposable to the military. Like a fancy pet kept by Snow.
Everyone was caged. Even those who thought they were at the top.
This is amazing thank you! Being autistic I don't naturally process subtext and if I try to I always come up with super abstract concepts that make me feel like I'm way off... So I really admire that skill and appreciate learning the subtext.
Oh my Gods saaaaaaaame! I'll read/watch/play a story and come out with just a 'well that was nice'. I like to watch these media analyses so I can truly appreciate them.
same! i always struggled in english class because i’m so awful at deciphering subtext 😭 i’m the same way with movies. i love listening to/reading other people’s interpretations of movies and books because i tend to interpret them way too literally
I didn't see you touch on this but I thought to mention that the capitol owns you even after you *die*. In the books it is described how all of the arenas are preserved in perfect condition. How it is all staged to show the tributes' deaths. That's why their bodies get taken away - to be embalmed and showcased for tours to the people of the capitol.
Theres also the obvious lack of consent you'd expect but the way as a tribute and victor you lack autonomy over everything down to your death is exhausting. The makeover scenes always rubbed me as wrong. How the tributes are seen as nothing but product to be stripped and cleaned and viewed and made perfecr. Katniss was 16 laying on a surgical table makes being fussed over with tweezers by strange adults. And she couldn't even complain because she didn't want to jeopardise her chances at victory. After the 74 game where they are airlifted out she's put in a medical coma. They fix her ear and I believe Haymich has to stop them from giving her unconscious body a goddamn BOOB JOB.
The bodies are actually sent back to their parents, but your explanation fits disturbingly well.
@@renzaluski1385 yes sorry I misremembered what actually happens is that the game grounds get preserved as they were and tourists get to take part in re-enactments of the deaths
@@0denku0and even camp in the arenas too. Which is more fucked up.
The parallel of Thresh saving Katniss because she saved Rue vs. Thresh killing Clove because she helped kill/ mocked the death of Rue, and that's why Cato killed Thresh, and then Katniss kills Cato, and Clove tried to kill Katniss... real, actual empathy versus forced violence, and the very real effects of both...
The true tragedy is that when hollywood got their grimy hands on it, they really played the part of the capitol well. The political themes were washed out and so was the commentary on society. Instead the focus WAS on the spectacle, the games and as many mentioned, the love triangle. Truly a hollywood moment. And we sat and watched it.
I'm still glad to have gotten to know the story but to learn how some of the actors and fans position themselves on things such as the palestinian genocide was disappointing. You can cheer for a revolution and ridding yourself of violent oppression as long as its fictional, but the moment you have to take a real stance in real life and lose potentially real friends over it, that's when many showed how they lacked compassion and bravery.
Katniss had an incredible ability to see past societal and circumstancal pressure to always treat others with dignity. From the way she refused to kill Peeta and Rue, to how she took care of her prep team in district 13.
Katniss brought down the games twice. Once with the berries, and the second by killing Coin in part to prevent a capital Hunger Games.
She was amazingly empathetic and shockingly peaceful.
She wasn't just preventing another Hunger Games. She could see that Coin was yet another tyrant and that the tyranny wouldn't stop after that "final" Capitol Hunger Games.
@@TheBridget272 it was also revenge for the murder of her sister.
So The Hunger Games often get grouped together with a lot of the other dystopian YA works and in a way it fullfills or even created a lot of that "genre's" clichees. The love triangle. The "teen overthrows government". The "getting to wear pretty dresses". Etc.
I never liked these stories for how badly they were written in a lot of cases but for some reason I never felt like that about the Hunger Games. Even when I revisited the series, I still loved it as much as before. I thought that perhaps the Hunger Games were an exception because of nostalgia.
But the longer I thought about it, the more I could see the reasons why this story isn't as superficial and badly thought out like so many others. The author truly had a message they wanted to convey. A thene to explore. The love triangle is less a situation where the main character struggles to choose one partner whilst lusting over them the entire time and more of a journey to learn to genuinely love a person and appreciate their qualities (or see their flaws). Katniss isn't actually the one doing the most in the rebellion. She's the face and the spark, but not the one holding the strings. You could even make an argument that District 13's use of her mirrors that of the Capitol in a way. And the pretty dresses? They all serve one or multiple functions.
Then of course, there's also the whole political and societal angle which this video analyzes so amazingly. Really, this series has so many facetts and angles to look at and all this hasn't even accouted for the artistic angles yet, like paranoid, uneasy and dreary atmosphere you get from especially the first book/movie
I also think that the link between revolution and empathy is devastatingly under-emphasised. That the more that muscle of empathy is exercised, the stronger it gets to the point it inevitably overwhelms what it pushes against. It reminds me of eco-anarchist Murray Bookchin, who talks about the infectiousness of solidarity
One thing I love about this book series is its complexities in just about everything my favorite example is Finnick Odair.
A character that a lot of people seen to adore, they always say his death was pointles and had no purpose.
Exactly, but by his death being pointless it did serve a purpose.
Finnick serves as the ultimate example that war is ruthless and does not care how good you were, how hard you fought, how much you endured, that you were so close to the end, it doesn't care if you helped create a victory and you want to see it, you just got married, you had a child on the way...
It doesn't care. He was so close to the end and yet he died anyway, to show that death is ultimately unforgiving and often without reason.
74 (not including the 3rd quarter quell since they were existing victors) hunger games with 75 victors but only 7 survived.
75 PEOPLE. 75 lives, just for only 7 to make it out.
I love how brutal and complex Susan wrote these books and truly showed that the world is complicated.
What 75 are you talking about? What math is this?
one victor per year, 75 victors for 75 years. some of the early ones likely died to old age but the point still stands.@@mariposa9506
@@mariposa9506they’re talking about the number of victors since there are 74 games.
And on top of that... How many of these 7 victors are broken in one way or an other...
Katniss feels hollow
Peeta is brainwashed
Haymitch is an alcoholic
Anni mentally broken
Beete sits in a wheelchair
Johanna is scared
Enobaria idk
Thats the second tragedy
74 games... 24 people each, plus 24 for the second quarter quell... that's 1800 people out of whom 7 survived
Especially in the context of "kindness is innate and human and we can suppress it but it can't be killed", Katniss is a great protagonist. Because, in the beginning, she doesn't think about staying human. From the beginning on, Peeta cares. Peeta wants not to lose himself. Peeta has a kind of moral compass he wants to keep. Katniss doesn't care about this kind of thing. She herself says that she'll do everything it takes to survive. And /yet she is kind/. She cares for Rue. She worries about Peeta even after before it is announced there can be two victors. And in the end, she is the one who makes the decision to end Cato's sufferings and the one who is /more able to empathize with and grieve for Thrash than Peeta/.
And this is something that goes well through the entire series. She tries to be selfish. She tries only to care about herself and the ones closest to her. But she /can't/. She can't play the Capitol's games, even though she /actively tries/. She can't leave behind who she is, and no matter how broken and bruised she is and how helpless she feels and how much she /doesn't want to be kind/, she still is. She is the one who refuses to ally with career tributes in th 75th games. She is the one who demands Beetee and Wiress and even Maggs (who very clearly has no really "useful" skills that will ensure her survival) while Peeta manages to be more pragmatic.
Katniss is not nice or friendly or soft. But she is /kind/.
Would you also say that despite being soft and friendly, Peeta is very pragmatic and tactical??? Because I certainly believe so.
I've always thought that a number of the tributes were chosen in advance for a variety of reasons. Sometimes it's spectical. But sometimes, and I firmly believe this in the case of Primrose, it's punishment. The capitol was probably very aware of Katniss hunting, and they were using Primrose to punish her for it. They couldn't admit they knew, because that would be to admit the fkaw in their regime - the unelectrified fence, the kind peacekeepers, the black market. These things are shut down later, but I firmly believe this came at a cost: things like electricity blackouts where the dangers of rebellion are high (like district 11), stronger peacekeepers being removed from areas they are needed, an overall reduction in the number of peacekeepes. The capitol must weaken itself to confront Katniss' misbehaviour head on. So they don't. They just put Primrose in the game.
Snow: "Im the true villain of the hunger games"
Coin: "no i am"
Dr. Gaul: *laughs in evil*
Yeah, my personal headcanon for Gaul's fate is that one of her mutts managed to get out of containment, demonstrating it's enhanced hunting methods on its creator...
@@bradleyadams5252 awesome!
Suzanne Collins is such a genius in my opinion, the depth of insight into modern culture and the intricacies of her metaphor only hit closer and closer to home the deeper you look. Gregor the Overlander is also an amazing series of hers that does not get as much attention because there isn’t a movie- if you're a fan of the Hunger Games you should also read those.
i read those in elementary school!!! MAN i had forgotten
@@5x5Takes I had completely forgotten that those books were also her, but now I absolutely can see it. And I feel like they put a lot of focus on the faults in hero worship, glamorizing war, etc, etc.
Damn, I might have to find and reread those soon.
I read Gregor the overlander and reread it a couple years ago bc I read that when I was 9 and yet the final sequences of the last book HAUNTED ME for YEARS after the fact
@@idontneedaname318 I don't even remember how it ended tbh, either I never finished the series or I just forgot. It's possible the final book hadn't come out when I was reading through it and then I missed when it came out.
This was such a profound and beautifully put together video. Your choices of clips to match the part where you were talking about “innately more compassionate vs innately more cruel” matching up with Peeta and Snow, despite or maybe because of their simplicity, made me cry. And that started the water works. I might just be highly emotional today, but I’ll be honest- I was sobbing for the last 10 minutes.
I don’t read as often as I wish. But videos like these inspire me to make the time. This analysis specifically reminded me why I adore literature. It’s all about the hidden ideas behind the words. And you communicated the message and hope behind these books and movies wonderfully. Thank you for the video. It can tell it was a labor of love and time. That said, I’m going to go reread those books.
I can’t remember where I read this, but allegedly during the very first hunger games, the tributes refused to kill each other until the peacekeeper started shooting at them. That’s not a reflection on human nature, that’s a reflection on what happens when you, quite literally and in every sense of the word, hold a gun to somebody’s head.
It’s also widely speculated that the reason why career districts very often volunteer is because their youth receives training for the arena, and they would rather go into the arena trained and armed with the skills to survive than let an untrained, starving 12-year-old walk up on stage, which is a noble cause that inadvertently makes them widely disliked by the rest of the nation because they have an unfair advantage over everybody else. In an effort to protect their weakest, they kill other people’s weakest.
Additionally, the theory about the games being rigged to reap specific names is not just a fan theory. It’s something that Gail openly speculates about. He mentioned how the family members of past victors go into the games a few too many times for it to be pure coincidence.
There’s another theory, not one that I’ve actually seen anybody talk about yet, regarding how Dr. Gaul manufactures the games in such a way as to affirm her own believes about human nature. I really don’t think that it were the rebels who caused the bombing of the arena in the lead up to the 10th hunger games. People were starting to get sick of the games. They didn’t want to watch children’s slaughter one other on live television. The citizens of the capital were slowly forgetting how bad the war actually was, and moving on, and Dr. Gaul could not let that happen. But up until the day of the reaping, nobody knew that children would be mentoring the district kids, so were the rebels just trying to bomb their own? I don’t think so. I think Dr. was responsible for the bombing of the arena, in order to remind people that the rebels are still a “threat”. This would serve to further dehumanize the districts, to further so the seeds of the belief that they are just wild animals in need of a cage and a tight leash, as opposed to innocent children forced to kill one another under pain of being shot in the back. In a bid to Confirm that her worldview is the only correct one, she manufactures and rigs every single possible opportunity to prove her point in her favor.
However, the fact remains that Snow had more than enough opportunity to believe Lucy instead. Time and time again he was shown deliberately that Dr. Gaul’s worldview is not the only one, nor is it the correct one. And he ignored every single demonstration that he was given of the innate goodness of some people. It really goes to show that despite human nature not being this horrible, evil thing, some people really ARE born rotten, and no amount of goodness is going to convince them that the world is kind, that people are decent. Even his cousin, who was shaped by the same circumstances that he was shaped by, who is also herself an orphan and a victim of the dark days, sees the humaneness of the tributes end of the districts. The time after time he chooses to ignore it.
This is an *excellent* point as well. Some people, whether through upbringing or nature, really do see the world this way. The thing is, they're also an absolutely tiny fraction of the population; they aren't present in any one specific nation or culture (although some cultures might be easier for them to take advantage of); and as the video touched on a bit, the very wealthy and powerful are much more likely to see the world this way. They also just so happen to be the people with enough influence on the world around them that they can orchestrate their own proof.
I dont think he was *born* rotten, he just chose to be so because it would benefit him PERSONALLY the most.
Being Gaul's favorite student, and having the ideas he did would guarantee him a good job. In the books he didn't tell his best friend's parents that he was essentially the one who killed him, so their fortune went to him.
He didn't start of as that bad, it was his choice to be cruel so he could have a benefit, so he liked what Gaul said, he wanted, at first, to believe that it was not him, everyone was like that given the circumstances, so he pushed those circumstances on others
Though he did have less empathy as a whole since the start, that didnt make him be born cruel, it just aided his choices
I think the only reason he wasn’t cruel for the get go was because he wasn’t in a position of power to do so at the time. Narcissists gravitate towards positions of power, but they can’t actually DO anything until they get there. I disagree with the phrase the power corrupts. I think it’s much more appropriate to the power reveals corruption. And the more powerful snow becomes, the more comfortable he feels committing cruelty and evil, his narcissism insisting that he is nevertheless the hero of his story, that what he does is infallibly righteous and correct.
@@nicoleg2544 i dont think power corrupted him, i just think he had enough humanity at the beggining to not be cruel, but time and time again chose the wrong thing. It was more his choices corrupting him in his search of power
what i also find interesting about the changes Snow made - he experienced first hand how being a mentor to the tributes affects people, he saw his peers grow to care for these children that were going to die. he knows how horrible a position it is to be in, so it’s perfect cruelty to make the victors the mentors
One part of the books that teaches you no one is safe under Capitol rule was understandably left out of the first movie, but left me in a state of "oh my God, what did I just read?" when reading it for the first time. Rue tells Katniss about how the Peace Keepers of District 4 are monsters, by talking about how they executed a mentally disabled boy for playing with their farming tools after their work was done for the time being.
As a disabled person, that is burned into my memory.
I thought about another aspect of the dehumanization or disconnection of the tributes. The fact that they call each other by their district numbers instead of their names. If I recall correctly (it’s been a while since I’ve seen the movies), Katniss was initially just referred to as “Twelve,” ofc aside from Peeta.
She was! I remember Thresh calling her 12 when he tells her he'll spare her for Rue's sake. I do not remember the others, unfortunately, but I do remember Thresh
34:36 -- "If empathy is a muscle, then everyday we have moments that we can choose to exercise it."
36:39 -- "Regardless, the kind act and its potential to inspire change are always there. And if people in these extraordinary circumstances can choose it, then those of us with our much more ordinary lives, certainly can too."
"Wait till you see it"- Grady
"See what?"- Norman
"What a man can do to another man..."- Grady
- From the movie "Fury" (2014)
The point about how the tributes go from being showcased as individuals right before the games to being one and the same in their uniforms once the games start is such a subtle manipulation. It means that people will only care about you if you managed to participate enthusiastically enough in the pre game pageantry to become their favorite so that they’ll be actively looking to follow what happens to you in the arena. It’s another way to force desperate compliance from the tributes to make the pageantry successful since the attention and love of the audience often means the difference between life and death.
I remember when I argued with my 7th grade english teacher 5 years ago, about how this was not just a love story( which she insisted it was and deemed it unnecessary to read) but how it shows the different victims of manipulations and the consequences of empathy and compassion.
What I always found terrifying is the aesthetic depiction of violence and abuse of the 'victors', especially after I realized how close it is to some games my friends played. This rather easily established glorification of violence honestly scares me and will never not do so.
But really great video essay, i LOVED it !!
What sort of games do you mean?
@@SamRMoyerjust violent games in general? I.e. Mortal Kombat, or GTA?
The fact your 7th grade teacher couldn’t read into the lines is really… off-putting and very concerning. This is someone who is supposed to be teaching our children to be critical thinkers. Instead we have someone who can’t critically think themselves.
Good on you for being able to look into a story more than surface level
@@RiceCubeTech off putting for society, the teacher was just conditioned by how the media was portraying the story.
Maybe not entirely related, but there's one very small moment from the books that always stuck with me. It's an example of the very casual dehumanization of the Capitol towards even its own citizens, and something that I could absolutely see happening in real life.
When Katniss and her squad are doing their final push through the Capitol, they end up hiding in a lady's home. I can't remember if they killed her or if she was already dead when they arrived, but either way they have to move on quickly and leave her corpse where it is. A few hours later, while hiding in a different location, they watch a news broadcast about the rebel infiltration into the Capitol, and see the corpse of the woman whose house they hid in broadcast on live TV. She's laying exactly where she is, but Katniss makes an off-handed note that someone went back to re-touch her makeup before broadcast. In a society where the Capitol is portrayed as the height of perfection, of course not even a murder victim is allowed to look a bit tarnished.
Wow. They take every situation and twist it to brainwash capitol citezins.