Don't forget that at the end of No Way Home, she still wears the necklace Peter gave her, even when she doesn't remember who she got it from. So that the love they have can even persist when reality itself tries to hide it. I do hope that they can write their way back eventually.
The official screenplay for the film implies MJ actually starts to recognize Peter immediately after he leaves the donut/cafe shop, so she's probably going to come back, just not immediately.
I think we might get a resolution in Dr. Strange 2. Or at least the beginning of a solution. The Mulitverse storyline is Wandavision, Loki, No Way Home, Dr Strange. So this was just the 2nd act. I expect at the end of Secret Wars Peter will retire to his own corner of the MCU and will be reunited with Ned and MJ.
I like how Mary Jane in the comics revealed that her party girl persona was just an act hiding a vulnerable person,that was a similarity to Peters act as Spider-Man.Both MJs in the movies were more faithful to the Ultimate Spider-Man universe,followed by the directors interpretation.
I really like Zendaya as MJ, I think her and Tom work really well off each other and her take on MJ fits this version of Peter. So I really hope she pops up again in the future
@@prestigiorebelde They are fake dating. Tom Holland is not Zendaya's type. I think they're doing this like a PR stunt. I tell you she is most likely to end up with men with the body size of John David Washington. She funded that, she chose him. Tom Holland is to small and skinny for Zendaya.
I always defended her cuz she felt like a real person, I can’t tell you how many girls I knew like her in high school, she embodies all what girls like her represent Teens with a passion and potential for the future and growth, she was her own person with AND without Peter
I mean she didn't really have anything going outside of Peter as far as we see anyway like her and Ned have MIT I guess but that's introduced in NWH and not built up or anything
@@spider1266 She also became the leader of the debate club, participated in quizzes, went to parties (despite not really enjoying herself there), works at a donut shop, does protests And yeah the MIT thing.
@@hazmat4260 The debate team is never brought up again past the first film and did we see her doing protests or was that one of those things they just casually mentioned?
@@spider1266 We do. It's not a picket sign protest but we see her dissing the history of the Washington monument to Mr. Harrington. She calls it "light protesting." The debate club is a subplot in the first film and she is the one who secures a win for her team. Afterwards we don't really need to see it pop up again since it served it's purpose.
Reading Spidey as a kid made me really appreciate strong women from young. She reflected a lot of the qualities I admired most about my mother. Her example has also helped me weed out unhealthy and toxic people.
I *loved* Zendaya’s MJ cause she plays really nicely off Tom’s Peter. Since they’re both realistic, modern looks at Spider-Man, they nailed both of them quite well. Michelle was more of a (excuse me for how pretentious this sounds) philosophical, real look at the love interests of Peter, and both of them just really encapsulate what it feels like to be a teenager (and she’s also really fucking beautiful).
Tom and Z having real chemistry sold it well. She might not have looked "traditionally" like MJ, but her relationship to Peter worked a lot better than Dunst. I'm sure there would be zero backlash if her name wasn't MJ, and people got over the 'balckwashing'
@@tender0828 Not much to really stick above the surface with how much people like Zendaya. But there's always a bit of fuss when they change a character's race from the comics. Especially with Flash already having being changed so drastically too. It really doesn't matter as long as they get the spirit of the character right or make them work within their own narratives, but hey, people tend to fixate on their prejudices sometimes.
Back when spiderman first started in the mcu I really didn't like Michelle, but through many rewatchings she's grown on me, compared to older versions of MJ. Absolutely great video!
@@thetempleton6622 she isn’t Lois Lane with red hair. People say that, yet, clearly, they don’t know their stuff. MJ in the Ultimate comics and the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon wanted to be a reporter, not only that, but MJ has ALWAYS been an independent character that sometimes save Peter’s ass. People are just blind and assumes all versions of MJ is just Raimi MJ. Like, no 💀 And if I have to say anymore, Lois Lane started out as just a love interest that sometimes needed to be saved in comics. She only started becoming independent in later comics.
I like how they actually act like teenagers. They embody the aspects that many of us now as adults kind of grew out, like being contrarian, idealistic, or passionate. All of them reminds us of someone we used to know in high school. I also think any hate towards them is more on people forgetting what it was like to be a teenager. People mature as time passes, you know?
@@CometStar100 I think marvel could set it up perfectly. Like have MJ be non-existent in the next movie until the very end when someone Peter knows suggest “You should go on a date with my co-workers daughter” or some thing in that matter and then when it’s date time Peter opens the door, BAM it’s MJ! It’d be sooo exciting and a great way to end the movie since the audience and Peter would know the additional backstory from NWH.
I feel the same way about her as I feel about Aunt May in the MCU she doesn't feel like a character in the first two films but she's pretty good in NWH it's just even there she suffers from no work being done with her in the first film and before someone gets me being snarky and liking dark things doesn't make you a character. Also while her and Holland have plenty of chemistry, I mean they are an item, their relationship comes out of nowhere from Peter's pov.
Literally how I felt about both the characters. It’s hard for me to like her when one of her main traits in the first 2 films is just her throwing passive aggressive jokes at most the other cast. The transition to Peter liking her is quite easy to fix as well, all the 2 needed was a conversation in the first film that Peter can look back on retroactively and be like damn she was right instead of whatever the hell they did with her in the first film.
Yeah. Even I, who defend MJ and the MCU spider man movies agree that they could develop better Peter interest in her, however I can see Marvel fixing this with the upcoming Spider man Freshman year (if this series end up a sucess, I could see Marvel taking advantage and using it to have more seasons taking place between movies, allowing them to show more of Spider man's world and also fix some plot holes)
I see this argument so many times but tell me this why did raimi Peter like his mj besides her being nice and pretty , it's established they have known each other for a long time but we don't get any backstory in them
@@dhakshkamra1553 I have no problem with Peter having an established crush it's why no one complains about him being into Liz, but the other films start the franchise with Peter being into these girls but in the MCU Peter barely even spoke to MJ in Homecoming yet we're supposed to believe he's super in love with her by FFH. It's the problem with making her the love interest in the second film. Though I would point out we do get some backstory on Peter and MJ in the Rami films through dialogue so you are wrong there.
Dude, I hope that hour feels worth it because THAT HOUR WAS WORTH IT. Eighteen seconds in and I can't wait to see what's coming - but I also feel like I've already been given more than I have any right to have been given.
I've always been torn about my opinion of MCU MJ. I like her regardless, but I always thought that she was so different to the perception of Mary Jane that I'd had growing up with the 90s adaptations and the Raimi Adaptation that I thought she would've worked better as an original character, but I agree with Leo's thoughts that for the specific medium you have to write the character to fit with the world around them, and I think MJ in the MCU fits perfectly. This video was awesome, as always.
also i basically subscribed to you channel entirely because of how well done your last "comparing MJ's" video was, so this is really fun to see you revisit her character. Especially since you are going back to the comics even more for a comparison.
I’ve always been partial to Michelle, and my appreciation of her has grown with each appearance. I think, far as straightforward examples of the trope go, she’s the best love interest the MCU has ever had and I hope that her role in it isn’t done with NWH.
@@Duiker36 I don’t count Vision cause he doesn’t *primarily* serve the love interest function relative to a protagonist. Second to MJ is probably Peggy or Pepper.
@Animaine7030 see how they even can't give valid reasons why MCU MJ sucks. Yet the moment someone criticizes Kristan MJ everybody just crawls in stating how much "development" she had.
Honestly love Zendaya's MJ. I don't mind the kind of strayed away to the previous interpretations and introduced her to this more modern interpretation. I hope they bring back her red hair that embodies her character as well.
I haven't seen the video but I hope we get to see more of her that doesn't always involve with peter, she's so relatable. This MJ has so much potential in the future.
This entire video segment about how much you LOVE MCU Michelle Jones, is really just a thinly veiled confession of how much you LOVE Zendaya. Yoooou're in loooove with ZENDAAAAAYAAAA~🤣
i remember watching homecoming and it finally clicking who michelle jones is in that last scene. the fact we dont think of her as mj through the majority of the plot somehow makes it all more meaningful
Love your Spider-Man video essays. I feel like MJ kinda lacked depth in the first two Spider-Man films but in NWH, she really came in to her own - also it seems like they keep dropping subtle hints that she is indeed Mary Jane Watson after all. I feel like she dropped her 'Watson' last name as a result of her abusive father (I hope this is canon to the MCU because it's very important to her father) and once she accepts and overcomes that past trauma, she learns to accept it again. Idk how they would possibly transition Michelle Jones to Mary Jane though
Zendaya has been a rollercoaster of a character for me throughout the series but seeing her in No Way Home made me appreciate that she was a fun ride to see. Also, It's amazing to see how far you've improved editing your videos. I always look forward hearing your takes, but seeing your presentation is just a treat.
I always felt that MJ in homecoming basically was like Peters inter thoughts being said by her she always questioned or expressed a feeling that fit his mood in homecoming like her questioning why Peter went to the party or why he was leaving the club
Great video as always 😊 I love the MCU a take on MJ and her relationship with Peter so it’s always wonderful to see someone else be so enthusiastic about them
I also like Zendaya's MJ as an update of the character for a modern lense. I think calling her Michelle Jones was a weird choice, but it doesn't ruin her. I just have a few issues with how they set up the romance because it comes kinda out of nowhere for FFH. Personally, I'm never a fan of when they try to do MJ right off the bat. Especially in High School. I think she should be saved for later in Peter's career, and while I am a fan of Zendaya's MJ I would absolutely love it if we never saw her in the movies again. Or if we do, give us a moment similar to the Peter/Betty reunion in the comics. I think that would be really heartbreaking to see and would make the sting of NWH's ending hit that much harder. I'm also a little sad that we haven't gotten Comic MJ adaptated kinda 1-for1 into a movie or show. The closest we got was Spectacular and she was fantastic there. Comic MJ is just one of my favorite characters so I have a lot of thoughts about how to adapt her. I think seeing a Renew Your Vows or MC2: Spider-Girl version of her on screen one day would be real fun. Great video man!
I wonder if they changed the name just so the fans didn’t lock in on her character in Homecoming until the end. Or to make the modernized depiction fit better by having a new name with the same initials to ease fans into it (if it’s a semi- original character, then no one can really say “this isn’t _my_ version of this character)
@@moviehermit5631 this is gonna sound cynical, but it’s genuinely what I think the reasoning is behind her name (especially because we she wasn’t given the Watson surname until NWH). I think they called her Michelle Jones so that if audiences didn’t like her, they could have wiggle room to say ‘no see that was Michelle Jones, not Mary Jane Watson. Mary Jane is still out there, her and Peter just haven’t met yet.’ That just feels cowardly to me.
@@zerotohero1483 While I do see that they weren’t super confident in this depiction, I can understand making that safety net. If anything in the past 2 decades has shown us about a portion of Spider-man fans, is that they can get very defensive and aggressive about these depictions. So when creating the third version of the same character within 15 years (at the time of Civil War/Homecoming), I can see the value of making it more unique as it built the character from the ground up in this multi-movie character arc depicting his journey of figuring out who Spider-man is
@@moviehermit5631 yeah, I think it’s fine and works for what they were going for, but I still have issues with it. Spider-Man fans definitely are as bad as Star Wars fans when it comes to the depictions of characters. Personally, I don’t love the Rami movies the same way everyone else does. I can see why they do, but it’s not for me. Especially with how they changed MJ to be more of a Betty Brant.
@@zerotohero1483 I also have issues with the Raimi Trilogy. But while I may not have agreed with certain details, they made those movies very well, and they were a huge part of my childhood that I’ll always love Hopefully with stuff like ITSV/ATSV coming out, we can see even more movies tat have their own depiction sir Spider-man happening at the same time as MCU Spidey (none of the Quicksilver crap where they killed him off due to rights/not wanting the fans to be “confused” by the two versions being depicted at the same time)
I love your videos. I've been watching for years and I feel like you've been improving the whole time! I look forward to seeing whatever else you put out in the future!
Wasn't Gwen Stacey originally a fellow science student at Empire State? That's pretty progressive for the 60s/early 70s but I never hear anyone talk about it
One of my few problems with the MCU is how little effort they put into many of the romances. I find so few of the pairings even a bit compelling, tbh. Peter and MJ are the exception, they really hit it out the park with those two.
It was very interesting to see the dynamic all the MJ's share even though they're still unique in there own way. Great video 👏🏼 Also I'm a massive fan of William Blake so that upcoming video sounds awesome!
I didn't really care for Mj. I did however really love Pete and Ned's friendship. He really wanted to be involved and help when Pete accidentally revealed his identity. Mj was just meh like Aunt may. Had he been with Liz I think it wouldve been more interesting since he put her father in jail and maybe there'd be more drama. Liz just seemed more likable and the Mj romance was just random.
hey dude! I love your videos! i really appricait you reading the order stuff and breaking it down and even each writers run. When I was a little kid I got almost the entire volumes of steve ditkos run on spider-man and seeing a person like your self talk about peter parkers personality in his early years I really love it. My father and I read and avidly have long discussions about comic books. And we both agreed that old stan lee run of peter was really kinda a dick and often many comic book fan's believe oh peter's always nice and like the wholesome spider-man like tom holland. BUT MANY PEOPLE DONT ACTUALLY READ THE OLDER BOOKS. I genuily love all your spider-man videos because the discussion's you point out both for movies and comics are the conversations I have with my Dad. I Just wanna say keep up the great work ! If you ever want drawing or anything I would love to make something for your channel. lol this is my private alt account but I draw and do paintings and many other things. ANYWAYS KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!
Soy primero, espero ver la opinión de uno de mis youtubers favoritos sobre uno de mis personajes favoritos!!! Por cierto la edición si que va mejorando mucho!
I will always defend Zendaya as the best MJ in the movies and much better than Kristen Dust. As much I love the Raimi movies (the first and second one at least), making Mary Jane into Peter's first and only love interest and a plot device for Peter identity struggle was big mistake. Not only this goes against Peter growth from the comics, in which he only meets MJ after broke up with girls like Liz Allan and Betty Brant (given a strong lesson that not always the first crush will be the definitive love), but it goes against the reason why MJ is Spider man most important ove interest and the one he end up marrying in the end. Unlike the other girls, MJ doesn't stay on Peter's way to be Spider man or makes him doubt himself, she understand his responsabilities and helps to keep going and doing the right thing. In the MCU, she may be different from the comics, even different name but the core elements of the character still the same: She one of Peter's friend, she acts indifferent to everthing around here while hiding her insecurites, she is different from the other girls Peter met, she figure out his secret on her own and, despite the problems Peter deals as Spider man, she push him to keep going and doing the right thing rather than give up for her. A faithful adaptation doesn't mean being a copy of the source material, but be faithful to the elements that made the character work.
@@ventusvanitas7544 Actually I already did (these videos in fact inspired me to look back at Stan Lee,Steve Ditko and John Romita run) and I stand correct: Zendaya is the best version of MJ. Outside from the look and the lack of abusive parents and desire to be actress (something that changing in recent versions like Ultimate universe and PS4 game), she still was able to capture MJ as this confident independent girl with hidden insecurites. The spider verse version is not in the movie longer enough to be character, working more as plot device to Peter B Parker character arc, with him wondering if he should try to rekindle his relationship with MJ from his universe.
@@alexandrefrauches132 Zendaya ain’t the best, dawg. You clearly really haven’t had them experiences to know 💀🤣 616 can’t be compared. But the best one not including 616 is Insomniac. Let’s be real here, shill. True, she wasn’t in it enough in Spider-Verse.
I know comic book adaptations need to make changes from the source material but as a fan it br nice to see future film version of MJ who is more faithful to the comic book version.
I really admire your analysis and videos, and I agree that Michelle Jones serves perfectly for the story of the homecoming trilogy. And that she is extremely authentic and relatable. And hell I remember I had a crush on a popular girl when I was 15, but when I got to 16, I was became attracted to another girl; very similar to Peter Parker in the home trilogy. So the characters are very true and relatable. However……I do not believe that Michelle Jones is the Mary Jane of the MCU, I agree that she shares the core rebellious nature of Stan’s Mary Jane. However there are main attributes of Mary Jane that are simply non existing in Michelle Jones, and that’s the main reason why I believe that there is no way in hell that Kevin Feige agrees to the fact that Zendaya is Mary Jane. She is Michelle Jones Watson, not Mary Jane Watson. And I think Kevin Feige made the genius move of introducing the character in the college trilogy just like in the comics. But saying Michelle is like Stan’s MJ, is like saying Raimi’s Peter is like Stan’s Peter. Sure they share core attributes, but on the surface (the way they talk and behave) they are extremely different. And so, I strongly believe that Zendaya is not Mary Jane Watson, and also this was confirmed by Kevin Feige during press for Spider-Man homecoming, but somehow people ignored that. He said that she’s called MJ as a nod to the character but she is not Mary Jane Watson. A good example for Mary Jane Watson is the actress playing her in Spider-Man lotus, I really want to see someone like her in the college trilogy. There are a lot of girls who are like Stan’s MJ in today’s age and world. And it would be very appropriate to have such a a character in the college trilogy. Bringing Michelle or Ned back would be equivalent to bringing Gwen back from Conway’s run. Ned and Michelle are gone forever. The only reason they didn’t die is because it would be really harsh storytelling. They’re alive and well, but they’ll never be a part of Peter Parker’s life again; which further symbolizes the growth and independence of Spider-Man, as well as the tragedy of course. At least that’s how I would write it. So, I would advice fans to let go of Michelle and Ned, and be ready instead for Gwen, Harry, and Mary Jane Watson. With all that said, I love Michelle Jones, I think she is an awesome character in this trilogy..but I just don’t think she is MCU Mary Jane Watson, we’ll see Mary Jane Watson in the next movies🤞🏼 Your videos are awesome btw and I’ve had the same feelings you had about MCU Spider-Man all the way back to civil war and homecoming! He is the true version of Spider-Man; and the most similar to the creation of Lee and Ditko.
Nah, Zendaya’s MJ is peter’s endgame. The script already confirmed she has a lingering sense of recognition, and of course she is zendaya’s they would rather capitalise in her r popularity than cast some random girl who isn’t even half as popular as zendaya. Not to mention she is dating tom holland, so it’s very likely they will cash on their real life relationship. Bringing another mj would just be weird, as audiences wouldn’t know why there is teo with the exact same initials and surname, it doesn’t make sense for peter to replace an mj watson with another mj watson specially after he promised to tell her the truth about the spell. Would not make sense.
I wouldn't say that Zendaya's MJ is so much of the rarer version of common in terms of what she does, but more of her close on herself she is, it's the more rare aspects that revisits the original idea of MJ, people could compare her to Ultimate MJ, but that's the thing that links both of them, they were both reimaginings of the original MJ for their respective eras. The party girl that you wouldn't see on that era, the nerd poet/writter goth girl in a world where party girls become more common, and the artist closed girl that has trouble interacting with others in an era where the party girls and gutsy ones rule. Having that in mind, i do agree with your statement at the end of her coming back at some point in the next trilogy... Through i hope is not on the first movie, so the second movie can be something different. I mean we know that Peter in college gains some amazing confidence, and becomes a flirt master, so we need to set up another love interest, so the question can be "Where they truly meant to be with each other? Is her return good for then or not?" Make doubt and like you said for Gwen a challenge, for Michelle Jones Watson, is she up to keeping the bond she had with Peter in an enviroment that they chose and as such, they aren't complete outsiders.
I don’t like love triangles they distract too much from the story, and they are exhausting to watch. Peter should not be put in a position where she has to choose which girlfriend is best to take home and fuck. It’s a trope that’s being overdone way too much. It’s what writers without talent do to add forced drama for cheap entertainment. So no. Don’t want peter having to decide which girl is better for him to hook up with when clearly MJ is the most supportive, understanding and loyal girlfriend he could ask for.
@@prestigiorebelde Ah but it works for Peter, if the next saga will be about what i think it's going to be, self confidence, and with the amount of self doubt that Peter has, it's a perfect thing for him to happen. He begins college begins to gain confidence to flirt with whoever it appear to be the new love interests is, post credit scene bam, MJ is back on his life and he tries to flirt with her. His doubt begins, is he doing it because of their past together or because of him still likes the new her. Not only that his Spider-Man life is begining to take away time from his life, and begins to doubt his choices. Yes im talking about doing that on the context of doing it through Peter going through No More Spider-Man adaptation, proper No More Spider-Man adaptation following then by the next movie being Peter doing through a worse hell... Because it makes sense, Peter is all about going good, getting a bad day and overblowing it out of proportion, dealing with the fall out which feels like hell.
Heres my overall view of the character. Though I wasnt a fan of MCU MJ when she was introduced in Homecoming, Im overall liking her character & her chemistry with Peter. Zendaya is a great actress and when she was first cast in the MCU, I was convinced that it was gonna be a love-interest or as Mary-Jane Watson. But no she was an original character who pays homage to Mary-Jane. To me, she felt like a hybrid of Mary-Jane & Gwen Stacy. When I first saw Homecoming, she was one of my criticisms. Not because of Zendaya's performance, but on how she was portrayed. I never cared about the whole controversy regarding her casting, if anything I was rooting for her to play a love-interest. But the writing for her in Homecoming was whille not awful, it was.....very emo. MJ's portrayal in Homecoming was not only awkward & emo, it was used for forced humour & bad dialogue and i don't blame Zendaya at all. She was portrayed as too dry & overly sarcastic that the comedy wasnt funny at all and I physically cringed at ehr dialogue most of the times. I don't mind her being awkward & sarcastic but if she was portrayed as also shy, confident. & more friendly like for example, Hinata Hyuga from Naruto, then i would buy her character. Hell, Homecoming hinted that MJ had a thing for Peter but I was too concerned on the direction they were taking her character in her sarcasting, anti-social emo phase. But after Far From Home, I started to like her. Not only did she have a boost of confidence and more emotions, her chemistry with Peter was also improved. Despite it being awkard at times, their romantic-chemistry was kind of cute. Though it is not at the level of Andrew Garfield & Emma Stone's Peter & Gwen's relationship (my personal favorite Spidey-Couple), this was an enjoyable couple. Hell, much like Andrew & Emma back then (before they broke up) Tom Holland & Zendaya are currently dating in real life as well (hope they don't break up).As much as I like Kirsten Dunst as Mary-Jane & thought her backstory & chemistry with Tobey's Peter was fine, she was sorta toxic and this gives Zendaya much more of an edge imo. Upon watching No Way Home, I loved her character. She wasnt a damsel-in-distress. She was a supportive & loving GF to Peter, & their chemistry has vastly improved in NWH. Hell, Zendaya delivered the best performance in NWH after the climax (you know what scene I'm talking about). I honestly hope to see her & Ned again in the future Spidey solo-films. I am not ready to see Peter move on at all. I dont mind him befriending new people like the accurate Mary-Jane Watson, Gwen Stacy (Casting: Elle Fanning), Harry Osborn (Casting: Nick Robinson), Debra (Samara Weaving), Black-Cat (Chloe Grace Moretz), etc but Michelle Jones should be the Endgame Love-Interest, If not then its best for Marvel to have Peter reconcille with her in future film and probaly break our hearts once again by adapting The Death Of Gwen Stacy story arc with her character. After that, Peter should end up with Mary-Jane Watson (my personal fan-cast: Britt Robertson), & MCU Gwen Stacy should be a temporal romance & be Spider-Gwen. Black-Cat is just a flirtatoius attraction so it doesn't count. But overall, Michelle Jones has not only grew on me, but as a love-interest to MCU Spidey........Great-Job. (Note: Im aware that her last name is also Watson but we don't know if Mary-Jane Watson will ever appear or probaly will. They would be probaly be half-siblings or just having the same last name. We don't know for sure but currently, Michelle is our MJ unless Marvel decides to bring Mary-Jane in).
Raimi’s MJ is, in hindsight, atrocious. She’s a glamorized, fetishized plot point. Peter takes her for granted, puts her on a pedestal, feels entitled to her attention, and literally stalks her. That’s why everything falls apart in Spider-Man 3, it’s a deeply unhealthy relationship. The problem is that Raimi did absolutely nothing to make that clear before Spider-Man 3, so people got upset when they weren’t living happily ever after. MCU MJ is awesome. She’s spunky, independent, absolutely adorable with Peter, and quite honestly coded as neurodiverse. That said….best live action Spider-Man love interest has to go to Emma Stones Gwen Stacy.
I'm sorry what, Raimi MJ as was terrible, she was whiny and annoying and Peter was a little too obsessed with her but she was more of a character than the MCU version was she had a goal outside of Peter and a home life, MCU MJ's entire life pretty much revolved around Peter she exists pretty much to be his love interest she has no real tangible relationships outside of him and just being snarky and sarcastic doesn't change that.
I think Michelle Jones is the best Spider-Man love interest but Raimi MJ gets way too much hate. Her character is clearly defined as someone with a lot of abuse, looking for someone to fill the void in herself. Peter is the only person who actually cares about who she is, unlike flash or Harry. When she finally sees Peter's the person she cares about, he sees Spider-Man is more important idk
@@Courier_333 if he thought about her beyond his infatuation with her, wouldn’t he have been more respectful of the fact that she was with other people?
I like this version of MJ, especially by the end of Far From Home and I really like Zendaya in the roll and this video makes me appreciate it even more. Buuuuuuut, I still don't like this ginger erasure! I am being oppressed and I will not stand for it! (I'm joking, mostly, it is a weird trend)
I don’t like how they didn’t bring in the MJ we “know” from the books. That said, the MJ we “got” is, with the help of Zendaya, standing on her own and I can’t imagine MCU Peter without her.
MJ in the spectacular spiderman (tv show) MJ was pretty 60s Lee comic accurate but MCU MJ was a great modern interpretation of that character as you delved into
Man. If they really manage to make 3 more films, i really want Michelle Jones to return as Mary Jane (maybe because she's hiding her name because something) and the reunited in 5th or in 6th movie. That'll be amazing.
She's not the most amazing love interest in a cbm, but she's above average for sure and is helped by Zendaya's endless charm and charisma. She can test Peter without coming off like a bother and can stand up for herself without coming off as a nag, which writers have a hard time doing with female characters in these films.
Mary Jane > Michelle Jones (if we talking about Accuracy.. Mary Jane of Comic Books btw, not the Sam Raimi XD ) Mary Jane is what I grew up with before I ever watched the Spider-Man 2002
@@Obliterace the show is great, the weird thing is when you start to think were the ideas come from, like a 40 y/o thinking about underage trans sex, but great show
I want to know your opinions on if Black Cat should be Peter’s MAIN love interest in the future and eventually settle down with her or if Michelle should come back when time is right? Gwen I feel doesn’t work for where NWH left off to me.
Black cat should just be a short fling, her attraction for spiderman is superficial and MJ has a lingering sense of recognition so she will remember peter
They could have Black Cat in the first movie of the new trilogy, showing her and Peter getting close, with Peter returning to open himself to others and start a new relationship, then, by the end of the movie or post-credit scene, MJ could return leading to the second movie to have Peter dealing with this love triangle. By the end he and Black Cat realize that they won't be able to work and he return to MJ, reconnecting with the part of the past he left
I still waffle on Michelle Jones. On one hand, I love the character of Michelle Jones. I can't think of anything about the character that I don't like on some level. I can't think of anything I hate about the character on ANY level. (which I can't say about Spiderman in the MCU - I hate how his enemies in the first two movies (haven't seen the latest) are Tony Stark antagonists who ran into Peter instead. they aren't SPIDERMAN enemies.) I love everything about Michelle Jones... ... except her name. This is where I waffle. Some days I applaud the writers for giving us MJ without giving us MJ. Some days I really respect that Bait-and-Switch, that Subversion of our Expectations. Some days I think it shows a level of respect for the history (including the behind-the-scenes history regarding the motivation for creating MJ in the first place) that most comic book movies don't show. But other days, I think it's too cute by half, and an almost manipulative way of erasing a long time fan favourite (Mary-Jane) to create a new Diverse character (Michelle Jones). We can't say that MJ was race swapped because it's not our MJ, it's a new MJ - which ticks off two boxes that most of us point to in these situations. 1) Don't (Identity) Swap 2) Introduce NEW Character of the (Identity) you want to show, but still gives us an MJ. So it's like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too. I dunno. Like I said, I waffle. But aside from the name, everything about the character works and works well.
"hate how his enemies in the first two movies (haven't seen the latest) are Tony Stark antagonists who ran into Peter instead" That's actually most of Spider man villain in comic and adaptations. Most of them are just super criminals and thiefs who Peter run into and become their target after interfering in their plans. Not all of them connect directly to Peter. Also I don't consider them Iron Man villains because, while Tony play a role in their origin, their goals have nothing to do with wanting revenge on Iron Man or kill him. Tony's role is very similar to characters like Norman Osborn or Tombstone acting as the billionaire who creates the villains because of his arrogance (giving the scene where he tells Peter he wants him to be better much more meaning).
@@alexandrefrauches132 the problem is Tony created both Vulture and Mysterio. Peter never acknowledges the flaws that Tony has/had that created the problems in the first place. He idolizes him.
@@Courier_333 Actually he does recognize that Tony made mistakes, but also understand he is trying to be a better, unlike the villains, who keep making bad decisions doing wrong to others, using the fact that Tony ruined their lifes as excuse, which is not right as Peter point out to Vulture. He respect Tony, seeing him as type of man that Peter wish he could be (rich, cool and popular) but he does outgrow and choose to reject his offer to be avenger.
@@Courier_333 The whole plot of "Spider-Man: Far From Home" was literally Peter seeing that Tony made mistakes and was like any other human and shouldn't be put on a pedestal or treated like a idol. Mysterio being the villain in FFH actually makes sense, it shows that Tony did infact make mistakes, and Mysterio was a effect of his mistakes.
@@dkfinitely Peter never sees that Tony was responsible, that never happens. There's one speech where happy says "you can't be the next iron man" and then blasts ACDC while Peter uses stark tech on a stark jet. Idk
I wonder if Marvel regrets not giving her the name Mary Jane. It really didn’t make much sense giving her a semi different name just for her to basically be Mary Jane. But I like her and Peter as a couple. They’re so cute.
Michelle Jones as a character was totally fine. I just wish they didn't feel the need to hide her "real" identity behind a pseudonym. Dropping the MJ bomb felt really dirty.
Hollywood is still trying to write the idea of the dumb jerk jock all the time. I was surprised to see Flash as an annoying asshat with no physically bullying tendencies. It's a rarity to see the idea of a good natured person who just excels and does so with a dignified air. I could maybe suggest Michael B. Jordan in Chronicle as an example. Am I wrong or is there really an underabundance of this kind of thing? List examples if you got them.
Suggestion for a future video: MCU Flash Thompson (just like MJ, I think he also suffers some criticism, even though he still plays the role of Peter's rival in school and the who always bullies him)
@@Courier_333 Sadly I agree in this point. The criticism I'm refering to is the fact that people are complaining because of his race swap (which most of the arguments are just racist) or because Flash is not the steriotypical jock bully from the comics, which, speaking as victim of bullying myself, I'm fine since it gives a more realistic approach to this types of characters, showing how bullies are not always the muscle guys on class. They can be normal people who use words and insults to humiliate beat others down through their insecurites and fears.
@@alexandrefrauches132 I think the problem people have is Flash is a terrible bully like he's treated like a joke by everyone and I never got the feeling he was the most popular kid in school just the one with money. Flash in other stuff is usually popular enough to where his insults actually mean something because people actually listened to what he said and would cause Peter even more social trouble.
I really don't feel like Michelle captures the heart of the comics Mary Jane. It's a very clear and strong departure. I don't mind this and actually like her character, but I wish they'd just called her Michelle and not tried to make her the new MJ.
![Six Hundred Strike [EPIC: The Musical] Full Animatic](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zov6NXIAuow/mqdefault.jpg)
Don't forget that at the end of No Way Home, she still wears the necklace Peter gave her, even when she doesn't remember who she got it from. So that the love they have can even persist when reality itself tries to hide it. I do hope that they can write their way back eventually.
Love is the greatest magic.
@@chengkuoklee5734 she will find her way back to him have you seen the leaked script regarding the cofee scene
The official screenplay for the film implies MJ actually starts to recognize Peter immediately after he leaves the donut/cafe shop, so she's probably going to come back, just not immediately.
I think we might get a resolution in Dr. Strange 2. Or at least the beginning of a solution. The Mulitverse storyline is Wandavision, Loki, No Way Home, Dr Strange. So this was just the 2nd act.
I expect at the end of Secret Wars Peter will retire to his own corner of the MCU and will be reunited with Ned and MJ.
yeah but it's impossible for Michelle to remembers
I like how Mary Jane in the comics revealed that her party girl persona was just an act hiding a vulnerable person,that was a similarity to Peters act as Spider-Man.Both MJs in the movies were more faithful to the Ultimate Spider-Man universe,followed by the directors interpretation.
yeah mj in the comics didn't have much luck either
Well this one's aloof girl thing is an act too, hiding the same thing
"faithful " ?? it's inaccurate in every way
I really like Zendaya as MJ, I think her and Tom work really well off each other and her take on MJ fits this version of Peter. So I really hope she pops up again in the future
I don’t, hope dude gets an upgrade like how he stopped being Iron Kid after NWH.
@@ventusvanitas7544 you are in rhis channel and you still didn't understand jack about MCU Spidey
agreed. i hope she and ned show up knowing who peter is and help out the young avengers.
Yeah she is the best, and since it’s zendaya and she is dating tom holland, she will return in spiderman 4
@@prestigiorebelde They are fake dating. Tom Holland is not Zendaya's type. I think they're doing this like a PR stunt. I tell you she is most likely to end up with men with the body size of John David Washington. She funded that, she chose him. Tom Holland is to small and skinny for Zendaya.
I always defended her cuz she felt like a real person, I can’t tell you how many girls I knew like her in high school, she embodies all what girls like her represent
Teens with a passion and potential for the future and growth, she was her own person with AND without Peter
People say that, yet, real common hits are the complete opposite of this wannabe know-it-all emo gal 💀
I mean she didn't really have anything going outside of Peter as far as we see anyway like her and Ned have MIT I guess but that's introduced in NWH and not built up or anything
@@spider1266 She also became the leader of the debate club, participated in quizzes, went to parties (despite not really enjoying herself there), works at a donut shop, does protests
And yeah the MIT thing.
@@hazmat4260
The debate team is never brought up again past the first film and did we see her doing protests or was that one of those things they just casually mentioned?
@@spider1266 We do. It's not a picket sign protest but we see her dissing the history of the Washington monument to Mr. Harrington. She calls it "light protesting."
The debate club is a subplot in the first film and she is the one who secures a win for her team. Afterwards we don't really need to see it pop up again since it served it's purpose.
Reading Spidey as a kid made me really appreciate strong women from young. She reflected a lot of the qualities I admired most about my mother. Her example has also helped me weed out unhealthy and toxic people.
I love how she boldly states even if he doesn't tell her who he is, she'll just figure it out again.
I *loved* Zendaya’s MJ cause she plays really nicely off Tom’s Peter. Since they’re both realistic, modern looks at Spider-Man, they nailed both of them quite well. Michelle was more of a (excuse me for how pretentious this sounds) philosophical, real look at the love interests of Peter, and both of them just really encapsulate what it feels like to be a teenager (and she’s also really fucking beautiful).
Zendaya and Tom Holland are fake dating. She will eventually end up with a black man like John David Washington
@@williampearson6299 wtf? who cares? Edit: nevermind just found you in a different comment thread. You need help.
@@larrypotter2243 I am just trying to prepare some incels that this won't go the way they think. Tom Holland is DEFINITELY not Zendaya's type.
@@williampearson6299 You sound like an incel.
Well, well, well…
Tom and Z having real chemistry sold it well. She might not have looked "traditionally" like MJ, but her relationship to Peter worked a lot better than Dunst. I'm sure there would be zero backlash if her name wasn't MJ, and people got over the 'balckwashing'
Just make her Glory
Don't think people had problems with her being black though?
@@tender0828 Not much to really stick above the surface with how much people like Zendaya. But there's always a bit of fuss when they change a character's race from the comics. Especially with Flash already having being changed so drastically too.
It really doesn't matter as long as they get the spirit of the character right or make them work within their own narratives, but hey, people tend to fixate on their prejudices sometimes.
@@AqibA.C. I don't think anyone would care at all if it didn't fit into the hilarious trend of hollywood ginger erasure
@@AqibA.C. that’s funny, because when whitewash happens, then it’s a “problem.” Hypocrisy!
Back when spiderman first started in the mcu I really didn't like Michelle, but through many rewatchings she's grown on me, compared to older versions of MJ. Absolutely great video!
Try Spectacular and Insomniac.
@@ventusvanitas7544 try going outside
@@ventusvanitas7544 spectacular was awesome but hot take, insomniac is not mj, she's Lois lane with red hair :/
@@thetempleton6622 she isn’t Lois Lane with red hair. People say that, yet, clearly, they don’t know their stuff. MJ in the Ultimate comics and the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon wanted to be a reporter, not only that, but MJ has ALWAYS been an independent character that sometimes save Peter’s ass. People are just blind and assumes all versions of MJ is just Raimi MJ. Like, no 💀
And if I have to say anymore, Lois Lane started out as just a love interest that sometimes needed to be saved in comics. She only started becoming independent in later comics.
I like how they actually act like teenagers. They embody the aspects that many of us now as adults kind of grew out, like being contrarian, idealistic, or passionate. All of them reminds us of someone we used to know in high school.
I also think any hate towards them is more on people forgetting what it was like to be a teenager. People mature as time passes, you know?
I LOVE Zendaya’s and the MCU’s interpretation of “MJ” but I really want that “You Hit the Jackpot Tiger” moment. Zendaya would SLAYYYY
Zendaya would make a very good Mary Jane Watson but I doubt we will ever get that line in live action because of reasons I do not get why.
@@CometStar100 I think marvel could set it up perfectly. Like have MJ be non-existent in the next movie until the very end when someone Peter knows suggest “You should go on a date with my co-workers daughter” or some thing in that matter and then when it’s date time Peter opens the door, BAM it’s MJ! It’d be sooo exciting and a great way to end the movie since the audience and Peter would know the additional backstory from NWH.
@@BostonChattanooga
that would be a pretty cool way to do it
@@BostonChattanooga Thats exactly what I am hoping they do.
Nah, she wouldn’t. Let’s just get Bella Thorne.
I've always liked the MCU and Home trilogy, but all these videos make me appreciate them much more
I feel the same way about her as I feel about Aunt May in the MCU she doesn't feel like a character in the first two films but she's pretty good in NWH it's just even there she suffers from no work being done with her in the first film and before someone gets me being snarky and liking dark things doesn't make you a character. Also while her and Holland have plenty of chemistry, I mean they are an item, their relationship comes out of nowhere from Peter's pov.
Literally how I felt about both the characters. It’s hard for me to like her when one of her main traits in the first 2 films is just her throwing passive aggressive jokes at most the other cast. The transition to Peter liking her is quite easy to fix as well, all the 2 needed was a conversation in the first film that Peter can look back on retroactively and be like damn she was right instead of whatever the hell they did with her in the first film.
Yeah. Even I, who defend MJ and the MCU spider man movies agree that they could develop better Peter interest in her, however I can see Marvel fixing this with the upcoming Spider man Freshman year (if this series end up a sucess, I could see Marvel taking advantage and using it to have more seasons taking place between movies, allowing them to show more of Spider man's world and also fix some plot holes)
I see this argument so many times but tell me this why did raimi Peter like his mj besides her being nice and pretty , it's established they have known each other for a long time but we don't get any backstory in them
@@dhakshkamra1553
I have no problem with Peter having an established crush it's why no one complains about him being into Liz, but the other films start the franchise with Peter being into these girls but in the MCU Peter barely even spoke to MJ in Homecoming yet we're supposed to believe he's super in love with her by FFH. It's the problem with making her the love interest in the second film.
Though I would point out we do get some backstory on Peter and MJ in the Rami films through dialogue so you are wrong there.
@@mikemorro140 show dont tell >>> exposition
Dude, I hope that hour feels worth it because THAT HOUR WAS WORTH IT. Eighteen seconds in and I can't wait to see what's coming - but I also feel like I've already been given more than I have any right to have been given.
I've always been torn about my opinion of MCU MJ. I like her regardless, but I always thought that she was so different to the perception of Mary Jane that I'd had growing up with the 90s adaptations and the Raimi Adaptation that I thought she would've worked better as an original character, but I agree with Leo's thoughts that for the specific medium you have to write the character to fit with the world around them, and I think MJ in the MCU fits perfectly. This video was awesome, as always.
I am loving this new editing style btw, its always really fun to see how you change up the editing and audio/visuals for a topic!
also i basically subscribed to you channel entirely because of how well done your last "comparing MJ's" video was, so this is really fun to see you revisit her character. Especially since you are going back to the comics even more for a comparison.
Well said true believer 👍
I’ve always been partial to Michelle, and my appreciation of her has grown with each appearance. I think, far as straightforward examples of the trope go, she’s the best love interest the MCU has ever had and I hope that her role in it isn’t done with NWH.
By far the best love interest, yeah. Second is probably Vision, and that entire courtship was off-screen.
@@Duiker36 I don’t count Vision cause he doesn’t *primarily* serve the love interest function relative to a protagonist. Second to MJ is probably Peggy or Pepper.
GOD this video is a breath of fresh air. So tired of folks hating Zendaya's MJ outright because of superficial traits
her character was so lame. the writing they did for her was just piss poor.
@@eggsandwhichian what do you think was piss poor about it?
@Animaine7030 see how they even can't give valid reasons why MCU MJ sucks. Yet the moment someone criticizes Kristan MJ everybody just crawls in stating how much "development" she had.
doesn't matter what spider-man universe, MJ will always be Peter's soulmate and the one that truly understands him
Honestly love Zendaya's MJ. I don't mind the kind of strayed away to the previous interpretations and introduced her to this more modern interpretation. I hope they bring back her red hair that embodies her character as well.
I haven't seen the video but I hope we get to see more of her that doesn't always involve with peter, she's so relatable. This MJ has so much potential in the future.
Dude I love how nuanced your look into these stories are. It allows we meet to reflect on my own experiences in life and appreciate growing up.
This entire video segment about how much you LOVE MCU Michelle Jones, is really just a thinly veiled confession of how much you LOVE Zendaya. Yoooou're in loooove with ZENDAAAAAYAAAA~🤣
I'm so glad I found this channel. I have fallen in love with these essays as they reach a more emotionally mature side of me. Thank you.
i remember watching homecoming and it finally clicking who michelle jones is in that last scene. the fact we dont think of her as mj through the majority of the plot somehow makes it all more meaningful
Love your Spider-Man video essays. I feel like MJ kinda lacked depth in the first two Spider-Man films but in NWH, she really came in to her own - also it seems like they keep dropping subtle hints that she is indeed Mary Jane Watson after all. I feel like she dropped her 'Watson' last name as a result of her abusive father (I hope this is canon to the MCU because it's very important to her father) and once she accepts and overcomes that past trauma, she learns to accept it again. Idk how they would possibly transition Michelle Jones to Mary Jane though
Just introduce Bella Thorne as the real MJ, lol.
@Sara Moustamandi ew you.
While I kind of agree with her "lacking depth" earlier on, I think she made up for it with personality
@@ventusvanitas7544 why the hell would they do that?
@@Tsukiakari-qb3tk to do some real good stuff
Zendaya has been a rollercoaster of a character for me throughout the series but seeing her in No Way Home made me appreciate that she was a fun ride to see.
Also, It's amazing to see how far you've improved editing your videos. I always look forward hearing your takes, but seeing your presentation is just a treat.
This is the better of the MJ’s we’ve gotten in the movies.
I always felt that MJ in homecoming basically was like Peters inter thoughts being said by her she always questioned or expressed a feeling that fit his mood in homecoming like her questioning why Peter went to the party or why he was leaving the club
Honestly NWH made me love MJ. She was already likable by Homecoming and Far From Home but something about NWH's MJ made me truly love her.
Great video as always 😊 I love the MCU a take on MJ and her relationship with Peter so it’s always wonderful to see someone else be so enthusiastic about them
The word you needed in the last bit, about how real the relationship feels, is verisimilitude…
I also like Zendaya's MJ as an update of the character for a modern lense. I think calling her Michelle Jones was a weird choice, but it doesn't ruin her. I just have a few issues with how they set up the romance because it comes kinda out of nowhere for FFH.
Personally, I'm never a fan of when they try to do MJ right off the bat. Especially in High School. I think she should be saved for later in Peter's career, and while I am a fan of Zendaya's MJ I would absolutely love it if we never saw her in the movies again. Or if we do, give us a moment similar to the Peter/Betty reunion in the comics. I think that would be really heartbreaking to see and would make the sting of NWH's ending hit that much harder. I'm also a little sad that we haven't gotten Comic MJ adaptated kinda 1-for1 into a movie or show. The closest we got was Spectacular and she was fantastic there. Comic MJ is just one of my favorite characters so I have a lot of thoughts about how to adapt her.
I think seeing a Renew Your Vows or MC2: Spider-Girl version of her on screen one day would be real fun. Great video man!
I wonder if they changed the name just so the fans didn’t lock in on her character in Homecoming until the end. Or to make the modernized depiction fit better by having a new name with the same initials to ease fans into it (if it’s a semi- original character, then no one can really say “this isn’t _my_ version of this character)
@@moviehermit5631 this is gonna sound cynical, but it’s genuinely what I think the reasoning is behind her name (especially because we she wasn’t given the Watson surname until NWH). I think they called her Michelle Jones so that if audiences didn’t like her, they could have wiggle room to say ‘no see that was Michelle Jones, not Mary Jane Watson. Mary Jane is still out there, her and Peter just haven’t met yet.’ That just feels cowardly to me.
@@zerotohero1483 While I do see that they weren’t super confident in this depiction, I can understand making that safety net. If anything in the past 2 decades has shown us about a portion of Spider-man fans, is that they can get very defensive and aggressive about these depictions.
So when creating the third version of the same character within 15 years (at the time of Civil War/Homecoming), I can see the value of making it more unique as it built the character from the ground up in this multi-movie character arc depicting his journey of figuring out who Spider-man is
@@moviehermit5631 yeah, I think it’s fine and works for what they were going for, but I still have issues with it. Spider-Man fans definitely are as bad as Star Wars fans when it comes to the depictions of characters.
Personally, I don’t love the Rami movies the same way everyone else does. I can see why they do, but it’s not for me. Especially with how they changed MJ to be more of a Betty Brant.
@@zerotohero1483 I also have issues with the Raimi Trilogy. But while I may not have agreed with certain details, they made those movies very well, and they were a huge part of my childhood that I’ll always love
Hopefully with stuff like ITSV/ATSV coming out, we can see even more movies tat have their own depiction sir Spider-man happening at the same time as MCU Spidey (none of the Quicksilver crap where they killed him off due to rights/not wanting the fans to be “confused” by the two versions being depicted at the same time)
Stan Lee shipped Gweter over PetJ? The Man truly was a legend.
This is fantastic! Wasn't sure what this was going to entail but man is this really well done. Good job my dude!
I love your videos. I've been watching for years and I feel like you've been improving the whole time! I look forward to seeing whatever else you put out in the future!
Wasn't Gwen Stacey originally a fellow science student at Empire State? That's pretty progressive for the 60s/early 70s but I never hear anyone talk about it
But she became a desperate love sick girl
@@dannyhuskerjay How so?
"pockets on shrek, rockets on deck, tell mr what's next? Alien Sex"
That has to be one of the deepest quotes of the year Easy
I’m glad *SOMEBODY* finally talked about Kanye’s verse on E.T. and it’s philosophical importance to society as a whole
One of my few problems with the MCU is how little effort they put into many of the romances. I find so few of the pairings even a bit compelling, tbh. Peter and MJ are the exception, they really hit it out the park with those two.
Nah, every other pairs beats this heap of a knockoff pairing of the real ship.
It was very interesting to see the dynamic all the MJ's share even though they're still unique in there own way.
Great video 👏🏼
Also I'm a massive fan of William Blake so that upcoming video sounds awesome!
These videos you do are so beautiful. Thanks.
Really enjoyed the video and music
Thank you for this video. I always liked MCU MJ, but I can't explain it on words. Thank you
I didn't really care for Mj. I did however really love Pete and Ned's friendship. He really wanted to be involved and help when Pete accidentally revealed his identity. Mj was just meh like Aunt may. Had he been with Liz I think it wouldve been more interesting since he put her father in jail and maybe there'd be more drama. Liz just seemed more likable and the Mj romance was just random.
I love your videos they give me goosebumps and hope in these unknowing times
babe wake up, new implicity pretentious video dropped
hey dude! I love your videos! i really appricait you reading the order stuff and breaking it down and even each writers run. When I was a little kid I got almost the entire volumes of steve ditkos run on spider-man and seeing a person like your self talk about peter parkers personality in his early years I really love it. My father and I read and avidly have long discussions about comic books. And we both agreed that old stan lee run of peter was really kinda a dick and often many comic book fan's believe oh peter's always nice and like the wholesome spider-man like tom holland. BUT MANY PEOPLE DONT ACTUALLY READ THE OLDER BOOKS. I genuily love all your spider-man videos because the discussion's you point out both for movies and comics are the conversations I have with my Dad. I Just wanna say keep up the great work ! If you ever want drawing or anything I would love to make something for your channel. lol this is my private alt account but I draw and do paintings and many other things. ANYWAYS KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!
DAMN that intro editing was crazy. Would love to see more of that in future vids.
Soy primero, espero ver la opinión de uno de mis youtubers favoritos sobre uno de mis personajes favoritos!!!
Por cierto la edición si que va mejorando mucho!
I will always defend Zendaya as the best MJ in the movies and much better than Kristen Dust. As much I love the Raimi movies (the first and second one at least), making Mary Jane into Peter's first and only love interest and a plot device for Peter identity struggle was big mistake. Not only this goes against Peter growth from the comics, in which he only meets MJ after broke up with girls like Liz Allan and Betty Brant (given a strong lesson that not always the first crush will be the definitive love), but it goes against the reason why MJ is Spider man most important ove interest and the one he end up marrying in the end. Unlike the other girls, MJ doesn't stay on Peter's way to be Spider man or makes him doubt himself, she understand his responsabilities and helps to keep going and doing the right thing.
In the MCU, she may be different from the comics, even different name but the core elements of the character still the same: She one of Peter's friend, she acts indifferent to everthing around here while hiding her insecurites, she is different from the other girls Peter met, she figure out his secret on her own and, despite the problems Peter deals as Spider man, she push him to keep going and doing the right thing rather than give up for her. A faithful adaptation doesn't mean being a copy of the source material, but be faithful to the elements that made the character work.
Clearly, you need to read comics. Also, try watching Spider-Verse. Beats, both, Dunst and Zendaya, mofo.
@@ventusvanitas7544 Actually I already did (these videos in fact inspired me to look back at Stan Lee,Steve Ditko and John Romita run) and I stand correct: Zendaya is the best version of MJ. Outside from the look and the lack of abusive parents and desire to be actress (something that changing in recent versions like Ultimate universe and PS4 game), she still was able to capture MJ as this confident independent girl with hidden insecurites.
The spider verse version is not in the movie longer enough to be character, working more as plot device to Peter B Parker character arc, with him wondering if he should try to rekindle his relationship with MJ from his universe.
@@alexandrefrauches132 Zendaya ain’t the best, dawg. You clearly really haven’t had them experiences to know 💀🤣 616 can’t be compared. But the best one not including 616 is Insomniac. Let’s be real here, shill.
True, she wasn’t in it enough in Spider-Verse.
looking for love - aldenmark niklasson is the song in the beginning
deceptively beautiful; how about explicitly beautiful amirite guys. guys.
"Pockets on Shrek, rockets on deck, tell me what's next? Alien sex" so deep... so philosophical....
I know comic book adaptations need to make changes from the source material but as a fan it br nice to see future film version of MJ who is more faithful to the comic book version.
Love the videos. Keep up the good work
Beautifully said
RUclips Recommended
I agree
Excelsior
I really admire your analysis and videos, and I agree that Michelle Jones serves perfectly for the story of the homecoming trilogy. And that she is extremely authentic and relatable. And hell I remember I had a crush on a popular girl when I was 15, but when I got to 16, I was became attracted to another girl; very similar to Peter Parker in the home trilogy. So the characters are very true and relatable.
However……I do not believe that Michelle Jones is the Mary Jane of the MCU, I agree that she shares the core rebellious nature of Stan’s Mary Jane. However there are main attributes of Mary Jane that are simply non existing in Michelle Jones, and that’s the main reason why I believe that there is no way in hell that Kevin Feige agrees to the fact that Zendaya is Mary Jane. She is Michelle Jones Watson, not Mary Jane Watson. And I think Kevin Feige made the genius move of introducing the character in the college trilogy just like in the comics.
But saying Michelle is like Stan’s MJ, is like saying Raimi’s Peter is like Stan’s Peter. Sure they share core attributes, but on the surface (the way they talk and behave) they are extremely different.
And so, I strongly believe that Zendaya is not Mary Jane Watson, and also this was confirmed by Kevin Feige during press for Spider-Man homecoming, but somehow people ignored that. He said that she’s called MJ as a nod to the character but she is not Mary Jane Watson.
A good example for Mary Jane Watson is the actress playing her in Spider-Man lotus, I really want to see someone like her in the college trilogy.
There are a lot of girls who are like Stan’s MJ in today’s age and world. And it would be very appropriate to have such a a character in the college trilogy.
Bringing Michelle or Ned back would be equivalent to bringing Gwen back from Conway’s run. Ned and Michelle are gone forever. The only reason they didn’t die is because it would be really harsh storytelling. They’re alive and well, but they’ll never be a part of Peter Parker’s life again; which further symbolizes the growth and independence of Spider-Man, as well as the tragedy of course. At least that’s how I would write it.
So, I would advice fans to let go of Michelle and Ned, and be ready instead for Gwen, Harry, and Mary Jane Watson.
With all that said, I love Michelle Jones, I think she is an awesome character in this trilogy..but I just don’t think she is MCU Mary Jane Watson,
we’ll see Mary Jane Watson in the next movies🤞🏼
Your videos are awesome btw and I’ve had the same feelings you had about MCU Spider-Man all the way back to civil war and homecoming! He is the true version of Spider-Man; and the most similar to the creation of Lee and Ditko.
Nah, Zendaya’s MJ is peter’s endgame. The script already confirmed she has a lingering sense of recognition, and of course she is zendaya’s they would rather capitalise in her r popularity than cast some random girl who isn’t even half as popular as zendaya. Not to mention she is dating tom holland, so it’s very likely they will cash on their real life relationship. Bringing another mj would just be weird, as audiences wouldn’t know why there is teo with the exact same initials and surname, it doesn’t make sense for peter to replace an mj watson with another mj watson specially after he promised to tell her the truth about the spell. Would not make sense.
Amazing editing, as usual.
I wouldn't say that Zendaya's MJ is so much of the rarer version of common in terms of what she does, but more of her close on herself she is, it's the more rare aspects that revisits the original idea of MJ, people could compare her to Ultimate MJ, but that's the thing that links both of them, they were both reimaginings of the original MJ for their respective eras. The party girl that you wouldn't see on that era, the nerd poet/writter goth girl in a world where party girls become more common, and the artist closed girl that has trouble interacting with others in an era where the party girls and gutsy ones rule.
Having that in mind, i do agree with your statement at the end of her coming back at some point in the next trilogy... Through i hope is not on the first movie, so the second movie can be something different. I mean we know that Peter in college gains some amazing confidence, and becomes a flirt master, so we need to set up another love interest, so the question can be "Where they truly meant to be with each other? Is her return good for then or not?" Make doubt and like you said for Gwen a challenge, for Michelle Jones Watson, is she up to keeping the bond she had with Peter in an enviroment that they chose and as such, they aren't complete outsiders.
I don’t like love triangles they distract too much from the story, and they are exhausting to watch. Peter should not be put in a position where she has to choose which girlfriend is best to take home and fuck. It’s a trope that’s being overdone way too much. It’s what writers without talent do to add forced drama for cheap entertainment. So no. Don’t want peter having to decide which girl is better for him to hook up with when clearly MJ is the most supportive, understanding and loyal girlfriend he could ask for.
@@prestigiorebelde Ah but it works for Peter, if the next saga will be about what i think it's going to be, self confidence, and with the amount of self doubt that Peter has, it's a perfect thing for him to happen. He begins college begins to gain confidence to flirt with whoever it appear to be the new love interests is, post credit scene bam, MJ is back on his life and he tries to flirt with her. His doubt begins, is he doing it because of their past together or because of him still likes the new her. Not only that his Spider-Man life is begining to take away time from his life, and begins to doubt his choices. Yes im talking about doing that on the context of doing it through Peter going through No More Spider-Man adaptation, proper No More Spider-Man adaptation following then by the next movie being Peter doing through a worse hell... Because it makes sense, Peter is all about going good, getting a bad day and overblowing it out of proportion, dealing with the fall out which feels like hell.
Heres my overall view of the character. Though I wasnt a fan of MCU MJ when she was introduced in Homecoming, Im overall liking her character & her chemistry with Peter. Zendaya is a great actress and when she was first cast in the MCU, I was convinced that it was gonna be a love-interest or as Mary-Jane Watson. But no she was an original character who pays homage to Mary-Jane. To me, she felt like a hybrid of Mary-Jane & Gwen Stacy. When I first saw Homecoming, she was one of my criticisms. Not because of Zendaya's performance, but on how she was portrayed. I never cared about the whole controversy regarding her casting, if anything I was rooting for her to play a love-interest. But the writing for her in Homecoming was whille not awful, it was.....very emo. MJ's portrayal in Homecoming was not only awkward & emo, it was used for forced humour & bad dialogue and i don't blame Zendaya at all. She was portrayed as too dry & overly sarcastic that the comedy wasnt funny at all and I physically cringed at ehr dialogue most of the times. I don't mind her being awkward & sarcastic but if she was portrayed as also shy, confident. & more friendly like for example, Hinata Hyuga from Naruto, then i would buy her character. Hell, Homecoming hinted that MJ had a thing for Peter but I was too concerned on the direction they were taking her character in her sarcasting, anti-social emo phase. But after Far From Home, I started to like her. Not only did she have a boost of confidence and more emotions, her chemistry with Peter was also improved. Despite it being awkard at times, their romantic-chemistry was kind of cute. Though it is not at the level of Andrew Garfield & Emma Stone's Peter & Gwen's relationship (my personal favorite Spidey-Couple), this was an enjoyable couple. Hell, much like Andrew & Emma back then (before they broke up) Tom Holland & Zendaya are currently dating in real life as well (hope they don't break up).As much as I like Kirsten Dunst as Mary-Jane & thought her backstory & chemistry with Tobey's Peter was fine, she was sorta toxic and this gives Zendaya much more of an edge imo. Upon watching No Way Home, I loved her character. She wasnt a damsel-in-distress. She was a supportive & loving GF to Peter, & their chemistry has vastly improved in NWH. Hell, Zendaya delivered the best performance in NWH after the climax (you know what scene I'm talking about). I honestly hope to see her & Ned again in the future Spidey solo-films. I am not ready to see Peter move on at all. I dont mind him befriending new people like the accurate Mary-Jane Watson, Gwen Stacy (Casting: Elle Fanning), Harry Osborn (Casting: Nick Robinson), Debra (Samara Weaving), Black-Cat (Chloe Grace Moretz), etc but Michelle Jones should be the Endgame Love-Interest, If not then its best for Marvel to have Peter reconcille with her in future film and probaly break our hearts once again by adapting The Death Of Gwen Stacy story arc with her character. After that, Peter should end up with Mary-Jane Watson (my personal fan-cast: Britt Robertson), & MCU Gwen Stacy should be a temporal romance & be Spider-Gwen. Black-Cat is just a flirtatoius attraction so it doesn't count. But overall, Michelle Jones has not only grew on me, but as a love-interest to MCU Spidey........Great-Job. (Note: Im aware that her last name is also Watson but we don't know if Mary-Jane Watson will ever appear or probaly will. They would be probaly be half-siblings or just having the same last name. We don't know for sure but currently, Michelle is our MJ unless Marvel decides to bring Mary-Jane in).
Your editing is amazing awesome video
Raimi’s MJ is, in hindsight, atrocious. She’s a glamorized, fetishized plot point. Peter takes her for granted, puts her on a pedestal, feels entitled to her attention, and literally stalks her. That’s why everything falls apart in Spider-Man 3, it’s a deeply unhealthy relationship. The problem is that Raimi did absolutely nothing to make that clear before Spider-Man 3, so people got upset when they weren’t living happily ever after.
MCU MJ is awesome. She’s spunky, independent, absolutely adorable with Peter, and quite honestly coded as neurodiverse.
That said….best live action Spider-Man love interest has to go to Emma Stones Gwen Stacy.
I never really got neurodiverse from her like she's a bit awkward but that's really it
I'm sorry what, Raimi MJ as was terrible, she was whiny and annoying and Peter was a little too obsessed with her but she was more of a character than the MCU version was she had a goal outside of Peter and a home life, MCU MJ's entire life pretty much revolved around Peter she exists pretty much to be his love interest she has no real tangible relationships outside of him and just being snarky and sarcastic doesn't change that.
I think Michelle Jones is the best Spider-Man love interest but Raimi MJ gets way too much hate.
Her character is clearly defined as someone with a lot of abuse, looking for someone to fill the void in herself. Peter is the only person who actually cares about who she is, unlike flash or Harry.
When she finally sees Peter's the person she cares about, he sees Spider-Man is more important idk
@@Courier_333 if he thought about her beyond his infatuation with her, wouldn’t he have been more respectful of the fact that she was with other people?
@@mikemorro140 I thought she was coded that way but to each their own
Who's here after it's announced that Zendaya's going to return?
I always knew MJ would remember Peter eventually.
I like this version of MJ, especially by the end of Far From Home and I really like Zendaya in the roll and this video makes me appreciate it even more.
Buuuuuuut, I still don't like this ginger erasure! I am being oppressed and I will not stand for it!
(I'm joking, mostly, it is a weird trend)
I don’t like how they didn’t bring in the MJ we “know” from the books. That said, the MJ we “got” is, with the help of Zendaya, standing on her own and I can’t imagine MCU Peter without her.
MJ in the spectacular spiderman (tv show) MJ was pretty 60s Lee comic accurate but MCU MJ was a great modern interpretation of that character as you delved into
Man. If they really manage to make 3 more films, i really want Michelle Jones to return as Mary Jane (maybe because she's hiding her name because something) and the reunited in 5th or in 6th movie. That'll be amazing.
She's not the most amazing love interest in a cbm, but she's above average for sure and is helped by Zendaya's endless charm and charisma. She can test Peter without coming off like a bother and can stand up for herself without coming off as a nag, which writers have a hard time doing with female characters in these films.
Mary Jane > Michelle Jones (if we talking about Accuracy.. Mary Jane of Comic Books btw, not the Sam Raimi XD ) Mary Jane is what I grew up with before I ever watched the Spider-Man 2002
i miss when Andrew was Spider-Man. i think the world would benefit if they kept him and his universe. underrated.
Thank you for agreeing with me on that. One day they will be together again. i just know it.
Oh man, i love Euphoria!
How’s the show? Was considering watching it but I haven’t heard many good things about it.
@@Obliterace the show is great, the weird thing is when you start to think were the ideas come from, like a 40 y/o thinking about underage trans sex, but great show
I want to know your opinions on if Black Cat should be Peter’s MAIN love interest in the future and eventually settle down with her or if Michelle should come back when time is right? Gwen I feel doesn’t work for where NWH left off to me.
Definitely want Black Cat to be in the MCU, not so sure about her being the main love interest.
Black cat should just be a short fling, her attraction for spiderman is superficial and MJ has a lingering sense of recognition so she will remember peter
They could have Black Cat in the first movie of the new trilogy, showing her and Peter getting close, with Peter returning to open himself to others and start a new relationship, then, by the end of the movie or post-credit scene, MJ could return leading to the second movie to have Peter dealing with this love triangle. By the end he and Black Cat realize that they won't be able to work and he return to MJ, reconnecting with the part of the past he left
Since you read the Spider-Man comics can you make a video about Spider-Man and Black Cat.
Sam Raimi's Spider-Man really is so Movie.
Now I have to watch 21 Jumpstreet
I still waffle on Michelle Jones.
On one hand, I love the character of Michelle Jones. I can't think of anything about the character that I don't like on some level. I can't think of anything I hate about the character on ANY level. (which I can't say about Spiderman in the MCU - I hate how his enemies in the first two movies (haven't seen the latest) are Tony Stark antagonists who ran into Peter instead. they aren't SPIDERMAN enemies.) I love everything about Michelle Jones...
... except her name. This is where I waffle.
Some days I applaud the writers for giving us MJ without giving us MJ. Some days I really respect that Bait-and-Switch, that Subversion of our Expectations. Some days I think it shows a level of respect for the history (including the behind-the-scenes history regarding the motivation for creating MJ in the first place) that most comic book movies don't show.
But other days, I think it's too cute by half, and an almost manipulative way of erasing a long time fan favourite (Mary-Jane) to create a new Diverse character (Michelle Jones). We can't say that MJ was race swapped because it's not our MJ, it's a new MJ - which ticks off two boxes that most of us point to in these situations. 1) Don't (Identity) Swap 2) Introduce NEW Character of the (Identity) you want to show, but still gives us an MJ. So it's like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too.
I dunno. Like I said, I waffle. But aside from the name, everything about the character works and works well.
"hate how his enemies in the first two movies (haven't seen the latest) are Tony Stark antagonists who ran into Peter instead"
That's actually most of Spider man villain in comic and adaptations. Most of them are just super criminals and thiefs who Peter run into and become their target after interfering in their plans. Not all of them connect directly to Peter. Also I don't consider them Iron Man villains because, while Tony play a role in their origin, their goals have nothing to do with wanting revenge on Iron Man or kill him. Tony's role is very similar to characters like Norman Osborn or Tombstone acting as the billionaire who creates the villains because of his arrogance (giving the scene where he tells Peter he wants him to be better much more meaning).
@@alexandrefrauches132 the problem is Tony created both Vulture and Mysterio.
Peter never acknowledges the flaws that Tony has/had that created the problems in the first place. He idolizes him.
@@Courier_333 Actually he does recognize that Tony made mistakes, but also understand he is trying to be a better, unlike the villains, who keep making bad decisions doing wrong to others, using the fact that Tony ruined their lifes as excuse, which is not right as Peter point out to Vulture.
He respect Tony, seeing him as type of man that Peter wish he could be (rich, cool and popular) but he does outgrow and choose to reject his offer to be avenger.
@@Courier_333 The whole plot of "Spider-Man: Far From Home" was literally Peter seeing that Tony made mistakes and was like any other human and shouldn't be put on a pedestal or treated like a idol.
Mysterio being the villain in FFH actually makes sense, it shows that Tony did infact make mistakes, and Mysterio was a effect of his mistakes.
@@dkfinitely Peter never sees that Tony was responsible, that never happens.
There's one speech where happy says "you can't be the next iron man" and then blasts ACDC while Peter uses stark tech on a stark jet. Idk
0:45 is it okay to laugh about that?
1:19 exactly.
*Zendaya fans*: You’re JUST realizing that??
Once you’re done with Spider-Man you should cover the original Batman comics
Or superman
I wonder if Marvel regrets not giving her the name Mary Jane. It really didn’t make much sense giving her a semi different name just for her to basically be Mary Jane. But I like her and Peter as a couple. They’re so cute.
Probably because the term 'Mary Jane' is slang for drugs is why they gave her a Michelle Jones-Watson
Michelle Jones as a character was totally fine. I just wish they didn't feel the need to hide her "real" identity behind a pseudonym. Dropping the MJ bomb felt really dirty.
It’s a musical in Spider-Man 3… so acting and singing. Small thing but I was genuinely confused that you didn’t get this.
How cool would it be if patron Zach Levy was actor Zachary Levi?
Michelle Jones is the best MJ.
This version of mj is my favorite
Go watch Spectacular, Spider-Verse, or play Marvel’s Spider-Man.
@@ventusvanitas7544 Chill, dude. It's their own opinion.
😍 new mj
You got to bring the old outro song
Hollywood is still trying to write the idea of the dumb jerk jock all the time. I was surprised to see Flash as an annoying asshat with no physically bullying tendencies. It's a rarity to see the idea of a good natured person who just excels and does so with a dignified air. I could maybe suggest Michael B. Jordan in Chronicle as an example. Am I wrong or is there really an underabundance of this kind of thing? List examples if you got them.
Suggestion for a future video: MCU Flash Thompson (just like MJ, I think he also suffers some criticism, even though he still plays the role of Peter's rival in school and the who always bullies him)
He was kinda wasted in the last two,
@@Courier_333 Sadly I agree in this point. The criticism I'm refering to is the fact that people are complaining because of his race swap (which most of the arguments are just racist) or because Flash is not the steriotypical jock bully from the comics, which, speaking as victim of bullying myself, I'm fine since it gives a more realistic approach to this types of characters, showing how bullies are not always the muscle guys on class. They can be normal people who use words and insults to humiliate beat others down through their insecurites and fears.
@@alexandrefrauches132 agreed the people mad about his race are just bigots.
@@alexandrefrauches132
I think the problem people have is Flash is a terrible bully like he's treated like a joke by everyone and I never got the feeling he was the most popular kid in school just the one with money. Flash in other stuff is usually popular enough to where his insults actually mean something because people actually listened to what he said and would cause Peter even more social trouble.
What's the song playing in "Credits/thanks" ?
I agree agree agree
I really don't feel like Michelle captures the heart of the comics Mary Jane. It's a very clear and strong departure. I don't mind this and actually like her character, but I wish they'd just called her Michelle and not tried to make her the new MJ.
Real couple too
What do you think of Agents of Shield?
dude this videos awesome but CAN YOU PLEASSE LINK THE FCKN SONGS
Far from home might be my least favorite Spidey movie but Mj is easily the most compelling love interest in any of the movies...