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Great vid (as usual). Something critical that wasn't mentioned, and I don't see in the comments either, is the role of your unique hand anatomy on grip. Finger length, thickness, joint flexibility and shape when squeezing... tons of meaningful variables. You said (roughly) "there's no good reason not to rest the butt of the stick on the pad of the hand and curl the ring and pinky fingers around it," but there actually is a good reason: your hand might not do that in a way that's workable. My fingers are short and my ring and pinky curl towards my thumb rather than parallel to the index finger. So if I curl my ring/pinky around a stick, the stick is practically glued to my palm (!), it's almost a death grip no matter how relaxed I am. So... yeah, I think anatomy is a huge part of why different drummers want to and need to have all these variations in grip and, in a lot of cases, have little choice if they want to maximize economy of motion and tension. $.02!!
Good comment. I too have stubby fingers. Unfortunately as I've gotten older I've developed trigger finger in my right ring finger and it may or may not kind of lock if I close that particular finger that far so I just don't do it but I can still keep that finger on the stick continually throughout the stroke.
I have small hands too . But no problem on French which I use sometimes.. Though I used index . & middle fingers fulcrum because of my small index I segue to middle a lot . I realised sometimes I let the stick dance between my index & middle. 🙏
The plot line of you avoiding using a practice pad is getting wild 🤣 Back into the topic, the real game changer for me was getting a grasp of the 'fulcrum' concept and realizing that it applies for every grip. I want to start trying the back fulcrum now. Great content as usual 🖖
I have students wash their hands then shake them out. When I demonstrate, my hands INVARIABLY end up traditional. That demonstrates what’s natural for me (despite almost a half-decade as a professional timpanist back east (Carnegie, etc.)… Thanks! Always LOVE your posts…❤
Wow Nate, thanks for making this video!. I play 5 and 4 hour jazz gigs (with breaks) and have been experimenting with back fingers and palm as backstop with less pressure on forefinger and thumb.. Still working through tennis elbow and carpel tunnel, but glad to see a video that validates the changes I've been trying.
I know how it feels to elbow and tunnel issues. I played in Church for many years on electronic sets that were table/counter top hard surfaces. Until Roland came out with the black rubber pads and then the mesh skins I was struggling to play. My thumbs were messed up from being shock absorbers. I happened to go see Carmen Appice doing a clinic at Guitar Center on a Saturday and asked him if he ever had thumb issues and he said yes. He told me about putting the stick between the index and middle finger and that it worked for him so I did just that and it was kind of weird at first but it completely took the thumb out of the equation. The only thing I couldn't really master were things like the double stroke rolls and similar moves. It was what I needed for a year or so to get my thumbs back. Then the other pads started to show up.
Graduated jazz school and started teaching private lessons and this was really validating! Sometimes I get nervous about what grip for what context but this was so articulate I’m using that “shelf of bone” and “door stop” great visual indicators
My teacher said never let your thumbs point up. He was a percussionist. 30 years later, that feels best as far as control and ergonomics. I'm venturing out trying to copy top drummers, and learn different grips. Mastering multiple grips, and being able to change while playing opens up a world of possibilities.
Great stuff! As a teacher myself and someone gigging in different situations (including perc more broadly beyond the kit), I've definitely noticed that there's a wide variety of approaches. Rather than thinking in terms of is a grip "good" or "bad" in the abstract, viewing things situationally helps (like French grip for the ride and the American grip for snare work). Realizing I could shift my fulcrum back to the ring and pinky was a game changer, but admittedly something I could try more on drumset...so thanks for that! One aspect that also informs the wrist and hand approach is...what's going on up the arm. Depending on how involved your forearm--and maybe even the whole arm--will also have an impact on which grip you use. As always, appreciative of the thoughtful, humorous, and at times iconoclastic approach to drum pedagogy!
I want to start by saying I love your stuff! I have to play with the stick Between my first and middle fingers. There is no more cartilage left in my thumbs from years of impact guns and hammer drills. It can actually work fairly well using a finger gel. I know it's not the better wheel but it does keep me rolling and pain free!
I think it's important when playing drum set or multiple percussion to understand german, american, and french grip as a continuum of positions you can orient your arm and hold the stick with. It helps you play with more relaxed, efficient motion.
Most of my revelations have come from not focusing so hard on grip, but moreso on the angle and motion of the stick. Once I started thinking more about making sure the stick is returning to a position/angle that gives it enough potential energy, and that it's moving in a natural arc, then the different grips fell in line. Or at least it's an easy way to diagnose if anything is wrong with my grip or motion, because it affects one of those things negatively.
My original (and primary) teacher taught me German grip. I seem to recall that he gave me a little primer on different grips and invited me to choose while heavily swaying me towards German. He was always pretty big on technique, so I naturally was too. Just for reference, I started taking lessons about 20 years ago. I looked down about 4 years ago and noticed my index finger was starting to fly away. I decided to try to focus on that while I was playing, but I never get time to practice anymore what with the new day job and all. Anyways, playing a low volume gig with my polka band a year or two ago, I looked down and noticed I was playing German grip with my left hand and French grip with my right. This is of course because I spent more time playing the ride with my right, so that grip naturally developed outside of consistent practice. I also noticed in venues where I could play louder, I often felt like I just didn’t have the chops I used to (which is mostly true, but not that much). I kept flubbing fast singles fills for longer than I would like to admit. I had a moment of clarity as I went for another blazing singles fill and realized that I had developed and been using the back fulcrum to play loud, but I didn’t realize that until watching this video. I thought my technique had just gotten so bad that that’s where the sticks wound up. I switched up my grip going into a fill after that, and it was all there. Different grips have different pros and cons, but as long as you’re staying relaxed and keeping your wrist at natural angles, there shouldn’t be any that are bad. P.S. I definitely also went through a traditional grip period. I tilted my snare funny, only played traditional grip for about two years no matter what show it was, had a blast. But it got rusty when we all stopped playing and I never got it back out oiled up again.
I had a similar problem. I didn't have my right hand in the French grip position, but when I tried to play really fast (for me) singles, my right hand started behaving like I'm playing French grip, meaning I was introducing lateral motion to the stick with my fingers. It was a pain to sort out.
As usually, great advice extremely well explained. I grew up playing piano, and along with drums play several other instruments. I've never had an injury doing so. Early I was taught the basic principles of relaxation, flow, range of motion, economy of motion, and control. If you can find techniques that satisfy all of those, you're probably on the right track.
Great video, Nate. I’ve been interested in the Murray Spivack and Richard Wilson school of technique. Many well known, experienced, professional drummers were on a waiting list back in the days to study with these guys. That speaks volumes as to the method they taught. I heard that Richard Wilson was a very close friend of Buddy Rich too and spent hours observing his playing. Notable drummers who spent time with one or both teachers are Chad Wackerman, Carlos Vega, Dave Garabaldi, Jeff Porcaro, Vinnie Coaliuta, Chuck Silverman, and many others.
Great video. Great comment. After tremendous pain and turmoil I managed to hook up with Murray Spivack and his partner Wally Snow after reading a Carlos Vega interview in Modern Drummer. It took a very long time to let this new technique finally eclipse my "questionable" technique. It saved my career for sure. It's now the basis of my technique and opened my eyes, ears, and hands to pull the good from what I glean from other methods.
@@permpress I had one introduction to the method with Chuck Silverman before he passed alway. We got together on Skype, so it was a bit difficult for me as a beginner. He ended the lesson with a question of "how would you play a paradiddle"?. To which replied LRLL RLRR. He said "No". This is how" and proceeded to play the paradiddles one hand at a time LLLL RRRR. I didn't hear him accent the first note or see him lift his wrists 4 times (up down) in succession to execute each stroke. It was a combination of many movements. He performed each paradiddle with smooth and fluid movements. I'm in the SF Bay Area and have never come across anyone who studied this method or know it. The exception would be Dave Garibaldi who Ive never met. I'm coming up on 50 soon and want to start learning. Chuck (rest in peace) had some great stories about Spicvack and Wilson, as well as many players in the LA scene back then. He was a rare type of person and noticed my interest. He even offered to teach me for free! A unique and truly amazing man. 🙏
Great stuff here. My start came with following Danny Seraphine from Chicago. He is a "jazz-rock" drummer who learned a lot from Buddy Rich. Emulating him was my self-taught source of inspiration and technique.
I realized this a couple of years ago and it changed the way I think about technique. Right now I always rest my sticks in the pinky and ring finger, with the rest of the fingers loosely around the stick. When I play I vary the degree of finger control and tightness of the grip to accomodate whatever it is I'm doing. I also use the stick click technique on the cymbals, hi-hat and tom rims and sometimes I also use a dead-crashing technique on the cymbals. I think of technique as a toolbox - you learn french, german, american grips and positions and then they start to blend into your own way of doing things on the drums, so the more tools you have the better you are prepared to do the job. Thanks for the vid :)
Awesome. I can only tell you my story. I never had an early teacher who used the word fulcrum. I played okay but as I got older I got too still . Would come off stage with forearms like granite Then I watch Igoes great hands for a lifetime dvd . He said the fulcrum is the holy grail of drumming. I never learnt traditional because drummers said I was banned . I watched Igoes dvd . He used the word fulcrum a lot :) . I used thumb & index finger but he also said try both & you are allowed to use traditional. No I use them all including middle finger mostly. And my back fingers. The space a the back of the stick ❤. Btw you know Rob Brown learn & won drum off playing traditional left hand ? 😎 A point you didn’t mention- everyone’s hands are different ( to a point )
My turn moment was when I could replicate the same feel in my hands from one day to another. I managed this by watching my hands and record them on video when it really felt good and the days when everything felt off I could clearly see how my grip changed... perhaps from recovering the muscles so the body instinctly adjusted and threw me off. So now I am at the point where I got a good feel almost all time and I got reference material if something feels off in the hands so I can get back on track. :)
If we base our opinions on observations and objectivity, we're likely to reach similar conclusions. I think you hit the nail/drum on the head here. Although there is one tweak I personally like to emphasize when talking to my students. That windshield wiper thing you mentioned is supper important and deserves more attention. It engages a lot of muscle including your bicep without having to swing that muscle around.
I was taught German grip and tried to make it work for years. My right hand was fine with it but the stick in my left hand would keep sliding out of the thumb/index finger fulcrum. I switched to French grip and it solved the slippage but the ergonomic changes took awhile to get used to.
Lots of great comments, very good video. I've spent 20 odd years thinking about the different schools and having lessons with various names. You covered most of it. Understand the fulcrum and the scenario and you'll make good progress, don't join any grip cults.
This is exactly what i've, been looking for- there should be more stuff on this really. Nice work! I've had a sort of spasm wrist/forefinger,thumb and 2nd finger thing as i've gotten older so am trying to learn other ways to grip yo avoid this choking thing. Back fingers grip and trad grip with palm down seem to be working at the moment. Its just a relax problem really. Cheers and keep up the good work!
Great lesson, thanks! I've never had any 'grip' lessons as such (apart from on this here RUclips) but play what feels comfortable- a mix between the handshake for snare and toms, and more thumbs-up for cymbals, although it depends where they are on the kit. None of that index and thumb fulcrum death grip thing, just feels weird. No injuries so far. Ho hum....
Almost everything I've learned about grip/technique is from Steve Smith's 'Drumset Technique/History of the U.S. Beat' DVD from 2002. Great video, and remember-- use whatever grip works best for the song part, drum, tuning, position, desired volume, etc. and change it up as many times as you need to. There's no one "right" grip/technique.
Been at this grip mystery for decades. Watched hundreds of vids & books all the stuff you know about. Major break thru was learning to play ever thing at p.
I like middle finger fulcrum. If you lay your hand out loose and limp, the pointer finger is naturally out front, and the stick can very naturally lay between the first joint of the middle finger and the thumb. learned from a Dave Weckl video. I only use the index finger fulcrum for buzz rolls
I don't know how, but I naturally arrived at middle finger/thumb fulcrum with the index totally relaxed and acting as a guide. Ring and pinky fingers active and ready for drop catch and stuff.
Great video, I mostly agree with your conclusion but not entirely. For instance, at least from what I have seen, Jimmy Chamberlin, who definitely falls in the hard hitting category, gets away very well with a very loose back hand grip.
I've been using Dave Weckl's 3 point fulcrum since I saw his evolution video years ago, with help from Tony to understand how important the back of the hand is. but for young students I still struggle with teaching grip, I believe it's something that needs to evolve with our playing, I'm not sure a 6 or 7 year old can grasp the subtlety of a front or rear fulcrum... at least I haven't had much luck in conveying it. Mostly I lead with a handshake grip and wrist strokes to get things progressing with the least error to build from. Does anyone have a similar experience? or has anyone had solid luck teaching younger beginners more involved techniques?
I'm looking at mechanics of movement (revisited) recently. Mainly because I lost decades of technique muscling out lots of loud bands with no time for proper review. Anyhow 2019 my big break was a quad bypass so I had a few months to relearn my lost art and rest my muscles up. In the middle of this they had me cut out some cancer so more down time. Anyhow recoveries done they won't let me retire and I'm still with three bands and numerous deps. So as I work out what I'm doing I might drop in some tips. A curious observation for gigging players is that during WW2 British MI5 operators would recognise the morse code "handwriting" of resistance operatives they dropped into France. Their radio suitcases were very heavy. This meant that after their drop and the usual long walk to their destination they would have to wait two hours before coding back to base in the UK as their muscle fatigue meant that their "handwriting" was unrecognisable so could be a German soldier after capturing the agent. Anyhow, the point being that this also happens to musicians loading in heavy gear so after load in and set up massage, loosen up, press on the forearms to find tender spots and generally give the area some attention before you warm up or play. Make sure your handwriting is steady.
I was self taught from the age of 9. When I took lesson at 14 my instructor noted that my left hand was "German", and my right hand is "French". Once I evened out my wrists I was playing super heavy using more of a back finger grip. I was breaking sticks, heads, and even RUDE cymbals. That was all through my high school years. Just after that I started using a more front end grip, which afforded me a TON of control and finesse. That same year (1996) Steve Smith. Dave Weckl, and Neil Peart shared their studies with Freddy Gruber. So, I studied and taught that for years. That was also when I started playing traditional grip. After that I studied corps technique, which really strengthened my wrists. But I'd always go back to the Gruber stuff. In 2010 I radically changed my set up from the "Vikki Foxx" (Enuff Z'nuff, Vince Neil) which was one rack two floor set up, back to a variation of what I played in high school - minus the second bass drums and two rack toms instead of three. I was studying a ton of old Vinnie Colaiuta, and Jeff Porcaro clips. My friend and former co-instrutor at the shop where I taught, Charles David Stuart showed me how he gripped and it was back to the forward fulcrum I stumbled upon in 1996. This was in 2010. For that year that grip allowed me to finally achieve the balance of control and looseness that I was needing in my playing as my new band had me playing complex parts that demanded precision. Through the years I'd vasillate between that and the looser Gruber approach. In 2016 I studied Buddy Rich's approach and I could blaze. It's actually not that far from what I'm doing with the forward grip. Today I've been pretty consistent with the forward grip. I'm so happy with what I can do with it, but I'm just now starting to be able to be very loose with it. In the right hand it's more of a cradle with the first and second fingers. The thumb is more there for bracing. There isn't a ton of actual pressure involved. The trad left hand is similar, with the stick being cradled under the first and second fingers, and the thumb testing on top of the first finger, on the middle segment of the first finger. I'm set up with the standard six piece, and my snare is angles slightly toward me. I've been fortunate to have my shoulders stay pretty even. One huge adjustment has been my sticks. It appears that Regal Tip is no longer in active production, which had me looking for a suitable replacement. Vic Firth 5A and 5B Double glaze came to the rescue. These sticks replace the Groovers and 5B Regals. The Firth allow for even more finesse! I consider this a win. Thanks, Nate! Great presentation as always! - Dan
I broke my thumb and resorted to gripping between my forefinger and middle finger. It was surprisingly workable, but nothing I'd ever opt to do. I worked with a guy to get my thumb back in shape, so no more weird callouses on the inside of my forefinger.
I do a variation, basically, of double-traditional, but my ultimate goal is to "have no grip", or rather to use whatever works the best with a.) my physiology, and b.) the song. I started doing double-traditional because coming from guitar/bass I have more strength and dexterity in fingers 2 and 3, and I wanted to take advantage of that. Almost every other grip leaves finger 2 neutral, hence one of the (many) reasons for my choice. This is all great info, I'll double-check on the wrist stuff just be sure I'm not doing anything wrong there. Volume is of lesser importance to me, as is speed, as I am a Funk drummer first and foremost and don't really do jazz/rock/country/etc.
Mmm pretty general, there are a lot of factors that influence which technique u use. Rolls, stickings, press rolls, dynamics, surfaces, concert snare or drums. Spivack won’t be useful when playing drums very hard, but you’ll get creamy rolls and beautiful stickings. Chapin will be great for hitting hard or gruber at mid dynamics. Best advice is, whatever tech u use, do not squeeze!
Over my many years of playing but only in the last couple of years have a I really noticed what my hands are doing and I have been going through multiple grips depending on what is needed so I guess the actual question to the "correct grip" is what is the right grip for that situation.
If you look at the mechanics like a steam engine piston arms. The shoulder and the elbow are transport support mechanisms for the wrist and hand and the wrist is a transport for the hand and the hand the fingers. The end result of this view is that when the joint has reached the destinated position it should stop. Then motion is taken up by the transported wrist / fingers until they need another taxi ride for an accent or position. This should achieve maximum efficiency of movement. This should work for any technique and I believe many players unconsciously use this. Young players or players exploring a new technique may make a movement of a joint that should be at rest and thus lose stick motion co-ordination and control. hope that helps.
Wes Starr, a noted blues drummer, uses the stick between first & middle fingers technique (due to a power tool accident). It's a great accommodation for him, since he experiences pain when his thumb is in contact with the stick. It feels to me much like playing marimba or vibes using a cross-stick, or Burton grip. Claus Hessler is a proponent of the "caveman grip", where his thumbs are below the sticks. I've stopped bugging my students about how they hold the sticks, as long as they get results & their grip isn't preventing them from playing the music.
the less i think about grip, the better lol your sense of touch and balance will tell you exactly where you need to hold a stick for each application. all these different grips are just taught as small technical objectives for beginners who are uncertain and need a starting point
Well, this is the first time I've heard someone talk about ulnar deviation of the wrist. I believe, in my humble opinion, that ulnar deviation (the side to side extension of the wrists) is the greatest cause for long term injury because of the strain put upon the wrists. Palmar/dorsal flexion ( the up and down extension of the wrists) is fine because the arm, using a "whipping" action, absorbs a lot of the stress that would otherwise be placed on the wrists solely. In my experience, using German grip as much as possible while using the combination arm/wrist-whip technique, seems to have given me the most efficiency and range of motion. Ever since I've adapted these techniques, those 3-4+ hour gigs are no trouble. Also, no death grip on the stick, mostly a triangular index/middle finger/thumb fulcrum, and all fingers on the sticks at all times for doubles, ghosts, etc. Just my opinion though. Everyone is physiologically different. So what works for me may not work for everyone or anyone else.
I have a genetic predisposition to stress on the tendon that runs from the thumb down the side of the wrist. This is a huge issue and I see the issue of ulnar deviation of the wrist all the time. I have excellent technique and I developed a condition so bad that I needed surgery. This issue is serious.
I picked up on that too, I haven't heard anyone mention it before. So I wonder whether that same wrist movement can lead to injury when playing in the French grip position, thumb nail pointing up and wrist moving up and down?
@@shamusenright5387 That's a good question. Some players switch the dominant hand to thumb-on-top while riding on the cymbal. It makes sense, because it feels more natural to do so. I think that's fine, there isn't nearly as much stress on the wrist when riding on a moving cymbal as opposed to a fixed drum head, and it's not really a definitive French grip because the whip motion still applies. Otherwise, unless you're a concert timpanist, my belief FWIW is that French grip just isn't effective and could potentially lead to problems. That's just me though. I'm not a kinesiologist or anything. Just a guy who has been playing music (everything from orchestra to jazz to heavy metal) and applying different techniques for 40 years or so.
@@chadeckels Yes I think most players use French grip when playing the ride. I've noticed when playing french with the wrist extended, the up and down motion rotates the forearm rather than just the wrist. Perhaps this takes some stress away from the wrist, I'm not sure. Anyhow, always good to revisit technique to reduce stress on the hands and wrists.
German grip here. I stick my elbows out to play other drums besides the snare so I don’t have to go franchie and lose power. I also keep the whole kit low so I always have power without having to use shoulder movement. Saves a lot of energy.
Great video. I think technique also means motion. Tommy Igoe and Johnny Madar talks a lot about this. It’s about flow and not about forcing your hands to do one thing or another.
I personally think that continually using the same grip causes more fatigue. It really helps to just intuitively alter between various ones that work best for you to add textures and such. It's really tough to think of trying to make all the infinite amount of tones available with using just one grip.
I know you are more into the jazzy side of drumming, but have you looked into the technical death metal drumming, like the band Archspire, or progressive metal like Periphery and Meshuggah? I hope you see past "it's just double kick and blast beats". I see you are familiar with Animals As Leaders. It's super fun to see jazz drummers explore the metal side of drumming.
Nate should try learning "Stengah" by Meshuggah, good slow tempo song to start out with yet has quintessential Haake-isms and is tough to pull off convincingly.
I use (what I've learned of) the Spivack method as a foundation, but freely use other techniques if it allows me to accomplish something faster/easier - Moeller, finger technique, push/pull, etc. While there are some great drummers who only use the Spivack method and no more, I don't think Spivack ever believed other techniques were not viable (although he disapproved of Richard Wilson's modifications to his technique). He was just very focused on getting the most necessary aspects of technique (wrists, arms, rebound control), to an adequately high level. This is all hearsay though, as I only got to study with three of his students, but not him, and I never made it through the entire curriculum (~2 years of snare drum, practicing at least 2 hours every day). In the end, I think technique, particularly in the early stages, is a balancing act between simplicity/ease of understanding, and optimization. A combination of different techniques might be the best way to play, but it isn't necessarily the best way to teach or learn, as it can be overwhelming to some early students. It would be like teaching a kid algebra when they're still learning arithmetic.
There are so many people on the Internet that studied a little while with Murray Spivak or Richard Wilson and have very little understanding of what they were teaching them. One of the misconceptions is that Murray and Richard taught a three finger grip. This is a complete misunderstanding of what they were being taught. They would show a new student the three fingered grip so that they could learn to feel the fulcrum in the middle finger. Once they knew that the student understood and could feel the fulcrum in their middle finger they would discuss the function of the fourth and fifth fingers. Anyone who thinks that they were exclusively teaching a three finger grip just never got past the basics with either teacher. Another misconception about Murray and Richard is that their concept of a down stroke is the same as Moeller. Again another complete misconception of what Murray and Richard were teaching.
Overwhelming to early students is right on. One can get lost with all those techniques bouncing around in one's head while just trying to play along with a favorite song.
I was the weirdo. I used traditional on most snare heavy work and alternate quickly to match for the majority. Since I was playing rock, fusion , funk , metal....I was taught or took jazz lessons from my 3rd to 6th year playing. So my instructor brutally pushed the rock nature out of my playing. I would learn what I was taught and go home and play my way. Hahah. Until I realized he influenced me. I would play for 27 years. Then circumstances with living in fear of eviction after losing everything in Katrina ...I had to be safe as a single dad. Focused on my son and daughter and he played guitar. I kept saying , I'll get a kit one day again. I played keys a bit. But when he and she grad and moved on I picked up guitar. I love it. But I do miss drums. One day I say still...I'll get another. Probably completely suck now.
I feel like not enough people talk about how there is not right grip. Bodies are different. The way bones/muscles sit in different people is so different. If you compare even trad grip from Stewart Copeland who slays with the stick sitting on his index finger compared to middle finger. Or how Glen Sobel TECHNICALLY does about everything wrong in his grip BUT that's how the stick is comfortable to him and doesn't cause pain. It's just about playing with how your body is comfortable playing where you're not held back and feel no pain. You can learn every "bounce" method in any grip as long you are using the right grip for you.
Learn all the relevant techniques to find what sits best for your hands. Your hand is like a gear box and the technique are the gears. Sometimes you want to go fast, slow, hard, soft, intricate, etc, and that requires different gears much the same as a vehicle has different gears for different speeds, gradients, etc. You wouldn’t normally use French grip to play metal and you wouldn’t normally use the back two finger grip (Tony Williams) to play orchestral snare, etc. Different gears for different jobs.
Being louse, having a high range of volume, always with great control of the stick and producing a great stroke sound is the most important things to have in my opinion. All of those are related to each other in some way.
A good example that stick grip is more personal than not, is seeing disabled drummers play. They play really well, because their technique works well for them.
It's only wrong, if it's tense, it hurts, and/or you can't get the desired sound needed. I personally dig the Tony Williams grip which utilizes the back two fingers. I get much stronger, clearer fills (even using doubles around the drums) and solid backbeats, that way.
Check out the drummer for Bill Withers in an early 70s live video of the band performing. He is super in the pocket but his grip technique is totally odd! That should answer the question right there. Of course, having good grip technique is hugely important, but point is you can make it work however feels right.
The Murray Spivack and Richard Wilson technique completely changed my playing for ever. Nothing even comes close to it. It's really all about physics. The whole "free stroke" makes absolutely no sense at all, why would you want to grab the stick whilst at the top? you can't do nothing with it at that height. That's why Murray talks so much about stopping at the floor (1 inch above the surface) at all times. The reason why the back 2 fingers are not involved in the grip is because they kill the grip and kill resonance, that's not to say you can't use them if you're playing really loud. Take a look at Richard Wilson's article on Modern Drummer
@@8020drummer Ok, I commented because - from what I saw in your video , you had a gap when playing on the pad. I thought "Thats not good. The indexfinger cant play the stick. It can only hold it. How is the stick supposed to pivot under the thumb? The stick will just slide off it"
Makes perfect sense to me. I’m self taught and just fell into that technique. I must say though Buddy Rich snacks the sh*t out of the kit with a trad grip, as do most of the big band guys. I like to play trad sometimes to pretend I’m Steve Gadd in a sort of sad case hero worship. Shameful really for a man of my age 🙄
Same! self taught, never consciously thought about grip… but after 100s or 1000s of hours playing, you fall into something practical that satisfies comfort, versatility, and endurance. Maybe We just got lucky.
I'm a self-taught drummer, too, who just plays for fun. This is great info but I just got's to be me. It seems like I use just about everything described at one time or another, except for the traditional grip on the left hand. But it has got to be fun and it seems every song teaches me something new. Rock on!
Have to agree, I personally think there isn’t a “right” way. It’s dependent on style of play and what works best for that individual person. I feel most comfortable playing French and a modified French for Jazz and Funk-
It's wrong if it hurts and double wrong if you end ups at the doctors. Humans grip and play with stuff in an endless variety of ways. Long may it be so.
Of course it's whatever works for you. Probably a good idea to be relaxed, and have the control to play whatever you want to hear, rhythmically and dynamically. But aside from that, I suppose no rules.
I feel like technique is the "Bastard Child" of drum topics! People's arms and fingers are different sizes and in some cases move in very different ways. You watch videos where they use the word Rebound like it's the sponsor, and then play on a pillow at the end and sound just as good. You see guys like Sonny Emory play timpani style (French grip) and get plenty of speed and power in every situation...I barely get by with it on the snare drum. Then there's the whole fulcrum thing. I watch a lot of drum videos and I rarely see the butt of the stick at all. Gavin Harrison is a good example, he looks like he's barely got any stick in his hand at all??? Idk 🤷♂️ Me personally, I can hold 90bpm with my single kick all day but my right hand will eventually fall behind. I really wish I had great hands but I just don't. I've spent enough time down the technique rabbit hole already though.
I love that you turn the question around - "is there a wrong way?" Brillian. BTW I've actually resorted to "between index and middle finger" for a while - on days when my thumb tendinitis is acting up! (I'm Owwwld ha ha) ruclips.net/video/zNszyvTRh2Q/видео.html
How a drummer holds the stick should never be set in stone. In any given song a drummer changes grip several times. In long songs switching between handshake and palms down works diffrent muscles so helps endurance. Work the hats frantically then switch as fatigue sets in. Focus on playing relaxed then increase tempo until tension sets in then just drop back a little until relaxation can be maintained at higher and higher tempos while relaxing and playing as quietly as possible when you do show power it will be that much more impressive and you’ll still be fresh at the end of every set that you can now make longer and longer. Have the guitars stop from bloody fingers not because you can’t keep up. The grip is entirely dépendant on the rudiment and or fill. Marching emphasizes pinched grip because there is no orchestrating around a kit so the strikes are landing in the same spot no need for a Travis Barker style (the other end of the spectrum when it’s all single stroke power and no ghosted diddles, basically) A middle ground would be a grip nested in the hand with the pointer finger along the top aka Anika Nils. Remember each rudiment, fill, beat and grove is entirely dépendant on stick grip. One doesn’t engage the back fingers during a cross stick or a one handed roll (Teeter totter the stick between the drum head and the rim pinching at the fulcrum) any more than a rock drummer needs a delicate touch. What I realized during watching this video off all of your teachers and in all my study of no one mentions HAND SHAPE! Hands are so much a part of human we take for granted everyone’s hand is different and therefore must grip things in different ways. (The handshake is a perfect metaphor for this.) some have longer index fingers than middle fingers. Some have fat hands, sender fingers, stubby fingers ect. even though no one even considers this yet it must affect each drummer individually for optimum grip in light of the particular sound one is attempting to produce. Tony Williams has a good video where he put in his two on grip.
Guys obviously my subscribers are too smart to fall for a bot with my photo. Anyway, I've reported the channel. If You Know You Know, otherwise, enjoy your day ;)
All grips work until they don't
Great vid (as usual). Something critical that wasn't mentioned, and I don't see in the comments either, is the role of your unique hand anatomy on grip. Finger length, thickness, joint flexibility and shape when squeezing... tons of meaningful variables.
You said (roughly) "there's no good reason not to rest the butt of the stick on the pad of the hand and curl the ring and pinky fingers around it," but there actually is a good reason: your hand might not do that in a way that's workable. My fingers are short and my ring and pinky curl towards my thumb rather than parallel to the index finger. So if I curl my ring/pinky around a stick, the stick is practically glued to my palm (!), it's almost a death grip no matter how relaxed I am. So... yeah, I think anatomy is a huge part of why different drummers want to and need to have all these variations in grip and, in a lot of cases, have little choice if they want to maximize economy of motion and tension. $.02!!
Good comment. I too have stubby fingers. Unfortunately as I've gotten older I've developed trigger finger in my right ring finger and it may or may not kind of lock if I close that particular finger that far so I just don't do it but I can still keep that finger on the stick continually throughout the stroke.
I have small hands too . But no problem on French which I use sometimes.. Though I used index . & middle fingers fulcrum because of my small index I segue to middle a lot . I realised sometimes I let the stick dance between my index & middle. 🙏
Ordered my drum kit this morning and found this channel this evening... honestly so grateful.
The plot line of you avoiding using a practice pad is getting wild 🤣
Back into the topic, the real game changer for me was getting a grasp of the 'fulcrum' concept and realizing that it applies for every grip. I want to start trying the back fulcrum now. Great content as usual 🖖
I was thinking that on the back of my brain when I realized 😂
I have students wash their hands then shake them out. When I demonstrate, my hands INVARIABLY end up traditional. That demonstrates what’s natural for me (despite almost a half-decade as a professional timpanist back east (Carnegie, etc.)…
Thanks! Always LOVE your posts…❤
Wow Nate, thanks for making this video!. I play 5 and 4 hour jazz gigs (with breaks) and have been experimenting with back fingers and palm as backstop with less pressure on forefinger and thumb.. Still working through tennis elbow and carpel tunnel, but glad to see a video that validates the changes I've been trying.
Look up 'myofascial release' for the forearm. This will help carpel tunnel syndrome tremendously
Curious how the battle with tennis elbow is coming? I've had it for a few months.
I know how it feels to elbow and tunnel issues. I played in Church for many years on electronic sets that were table/counter top hard surfaces. Until Roland came out with the black rubber pads and then the mesh skins I was struggling to play. My thumbs were messed up from being shock absorbers. I happened to go see Carmen Appice doing a clinic at Guitar Center on a Saturday and asked him if he ever had thumb issues and he said yes. He told me about putting the stick between the index and middle finger and that it worked for him so I did just that and it was kind of weird at first but it completely took the thumb out of the equation. The only thing I couldn't really master were things like the double stroke rolls and similar moves. It was what I needed for a year or so to get my thumbs back. Then the other pads started to show up.
Graduated jazz school and started teaching private lessons and this was really validating! Sometimes I get nervous about what grip for what context but this was so articulate I’m using that “shelf of bone” and “door stop” great visual indicators
Finally! A stick technique video that confirms my theories that I've always found hard to explain. Thank you!
My teacher said never let your thumbs point up. He was a percussionist. 30 years later, that feels best as far as control and ergonomics. I'm venturing out trying to copy top drummers, and learn different grips. Mastering multiple grips, and being able to change while playing opens up a world of possibilities.
Great stuff! As a teacher myself and someone gigging in different situations (including perc more broadly beyond the kit), I've definitely noticed that there's a wide variety of approaches. Rather than thinking in terms of is a grip "good" or "bad" in the abstract, viewing things situationally helps (like French grip for the ride and the American grip for snare work). Realizing I could shift my fulcrum back to the ring and pinky was a game changer, but admittedly something I could try more on drumset...so thanks for that!
One aspect that also informs the wrist and hand approach is...what's going on up the arm. Depending on how involved your forearm--and maybe even the whole arm--will also have an impact on which grip you use.
As always, appreciative of the thoughtful, humorous, and at times iconoclastic approach to drum pedagogy!
I want to start by saying I love your stuff! I have to play with the stick Between my first and middle fingers. There is no more cartilage left in my thumbs from years of impact guns and hammer drills. It can actually work fairly well using a finger gel. I know it's not the better wheel but it does keep me rolling and pain free!
I think it's important when playing drum set or multiple percussion to understand german, american, and french grip as a continuum of positions you can orient your arm and hold the stick with. It helps you play with more relaxed, efficient motion.
Most of my revelations have come from not focusing so hard on grip, but moreso on the angle and motion of the stick. Once I started thinking more about making sure the stick is returning to a position/angle that gives it enough potential energy, and that it's moving in a natural arc, then the different grips fell in line. Or at least it's an easy way to diagnose if anything is wrong with my grip or motion, because it affects one of those things negatively.
Very important insight. Thanks for sharing.
i will be focusing on this, thank you!!
My original (and primary) teacher taught me German grip. I seem to recall that he gave me a little primer on different grips and invited me to choose while heavily swaying me towards German. He was always pretty big on technique, so I naturally was too.
Just for reference, I started taking lessons about 20 years ago. I looked down about 4 years ago and noticed my index finger was starting to fly away. I decided to try to focus on that while I was playing, but I never get time to practice anymore what with the new day job and all.
Anyways, playing a low volume gig with my polka band a year or two ago, I looked down and noticed I was playing German grip with my left hand and French grip with my right. This is of course because I spent more time playing the ride with my right, so that grip naturally developed outside of consistent practice.
I also noticed in venues where I could play louder, I often felt like I just didn’t have the chops I used to (which is mostly true, but not that much). I kept flubbing fast singles fills for longer than I would like to admit. I had a moment of clarity as I went for another blazing singles fill and realized that I had developed and been using the back fulcrum to play loud, but I didn’t realize that until watching this video. I thought my technique had just gotten so bad that that’s where the sticks wound up. I switched up my grip going into a fill after that, and it was all there. Different grips have different pros and cons, but as long as you’re staying relaxed and keeping your wrist at natural angles, there shouldn’t be any that are bad.
P.S. I definitely also went through a traditional grip period. I tilted my snare funny, only played traditional grip for about two years no matter what show it was, had a blast. But it got rusty when we all stopped playing and I never got it back out oiled up again.
I had a similar problem. I didn't have my right hand in the French grip position, but when I tried to play really fast (for me) singles, my right hand started behaving like I'm playing French grip, meaning I was introducing lateral motion to the stick with my fingers. It was a pain to sort out.
I’ve never heard the term ‘handshake grip’ before but it’s actually a perfect t way of describing it. Thanks!
i appreciate your intellect, sir.
i really like that you addressed injury/long term.
As usually, great advice extremely well explained.
I grew up playing piano, and along with drums play several other instruments. I've never had an injury doing so. Early I was taught the basic principles of relaxation, flow, range of motion, economy of motion, and control. If you can find techniques that satisfy all of those, you're probably on the right track.
Great video, Nate. I’ve been interested in the Murray Spivack and Richard Wilson school of technique. Many well known, experienced, professional drummers were on a waiting list back in the days to study with these guys. That speaks volumes as to the method they taught. I heard that Richard Wilson was a very close friend of Buddy Rich too and spent hours observing his playing. Notable drummers who spent time with one or both teachers are Chad Wackerman, Carlos Vega, Dave Garabaldi, Jeff Porcaro, Vinnie Coaliuta, Chuck Silverman, and many others.
Great video. Great comment. After tremendous pain and turmoil I managed to hook up with Murray Spivack and his partner Wally Snow after reading a Carlos Vega interview in Modern Drummer. It took a very long time to let this new technique finally eclipse my "questionable" technique. It saved my career for sure. It's now the basis of my technique and opened my eyes, ears, and hands to pull the good from what I glean from other methods.
@@permpress I had one introduction to the method with Chuck Silverman before he passed alway. We got together on Skype, so it was a bit difficult for me as a beginner. He ended the lesson with a question of "how would you play a paradiddle"?. To which replied LRLL RLRR. He said "No". This is how" and proceeded to play the paradiddles one hand at a time
LLLL RRRR. I didn't hear him accent the first note or see him lift his wrists 4 times (up down) in succession to execute each stroke. It was a combination of many movements. He performed each paradiddle with smooth and fluid movements. I'm in the SF Bay Area and have never come across anyone who studied this method or know it. The exception would be Dave Garibaldi who Ive never met. I'm coming up on 50 soon and want to start learning. Chuck (rest in peace) had some great stories about Spicvack and Wilson, as well as many players in the LA scene back then. He was a rare type of person and noticed my interest. He even offered to teach me for free! A unique and truly amazing man. 🙏
Great stuff here. My start came with following Danny Seraphine from Chicago. He is a "jazz-rock" drummer who learned a lot from Buddy Rich. Emulating him was my self-taught source of inspiration and technique.
I realized this a couple of years ago and it changed the way I think about technique. Right now I always rest my sticks in the pinky and ring finger, with the rest of the fingers loosely around the stick. When I play I vary the degree of finger control and tightness of the grip to accomodate whatever it is I'm doing. I also use the stick click technique on the cymbals, hi-hat and tom rims and sometimes I also use a dead-crashing technique on the cymbals. I think of technique as a toolbox - you learn french, german, american grips and positions and then they start to blend into your own way of doing things on the drums, so the more tools you have the better you are prepared to do the job. Thanks for the vid :)
Dynamics influence grip so much, and that’s when feel really comes in handy. This stuff I don’t even think about anymore.
True
Awesome. I can only tell you my story. I never had an early teacher who used the word fulcrum. I played okay but as I got older I got too still . Would come off stage with forearms like granite Then I watch Igoes great hands for a lifetime dvd . He said the fulcrum is the holy grail of drumming. I never learnt traditional because drummers said I was banned . I watched Igoes dvd . He used the word fulcrum a lot :) . I used thumb & index finger but he also said try both & you are allowed to use traditional. No I use them all including middle finger mostly. And my back fingers. The space a the back of the stick ❤. Btw you know Rob Brown learn & won drum off playing traditional left hand ? 😎 A point you didn’t mention- everyone’s hands are different ( to a point )
My turn moment was when I could replicate the same feel in my hands from one day to another. I managed this by watching my hands and record them on video when it really felt good and the days when everything felt off I could clearly see how my grip changed... perhaps from recovering the muscles so the body instinctly adjusted and threw me off. So now I am at the point where I got a good feel almost all time and I got reference material if something feels off in the hands so I can get back on track. :)
If we base our opinions on observations and objectivity, we're likely to reach similar conclusions. I think you hit the nail/drum on the head here. Although there is one tweak I personally like to emphasize when talking to my students. That windshield wiper thing you mentioned is supper important and deserves more attention. It engages a lot of muscle including your bicep without having to swing that muscle around.
I was taught German grip and tried to make it work for years. My right hand was fine with it but the stick in my left hand would keep sliding out of the thumb/index finger fulcrum. I switched to French grip and it solved the slippage but the ergonomic changes took awhile to get used to.
Wtf is this weird bot doing? 👆
Lots of great comments, very good video. I've spent 20 odd years thinking about the different schools and having lessons with various names. You covered most of it. Understand the fulcrum and the scenario and you'll make good progress, don't join any grip cults.
This is exactly what i've, been looking for- there should be more stuff on this really. Nice work!
I've had a sort of spasm wrist/forefinger,thumb and 2nd finger thing as i've gotten older so am trying to learn other ways to grip yo avoid this choking thing. Back fingers grip and trad grip with palm down seem to be working at the moment. Its just a relax problem really. Cheers and keep up the good work!
10,000 videos later, I'm more confused than ever.
Mate - I saw this and thought "finally, a scientific approach to stick grip". But I'm with you, confused. Was that even a seious video??
@@LeadingEdgeFitness1This video is serious😊
😂😂
Awesome video! Interesting topic!
Great lesson, thanks! I've never had any 'grip' lessons as such (apart from on this here RUclips) but play what feels comfortable- a mix between the handshake for snare and toms, and more thumbs-up for cymbals, although it depends where they are on the kit. None of that index and thumb fulcrum death grip thing, just feels weird. No injuries so far. Ho hum....
I 100% agree with your assessment, and have been giving a similar message myself for years. I’m glad I’m not alone. 😁
Nate crushed this. It's spot on, well thought out .
After hearing the list of teachers, I'm glad I had 1 teacher and ONE LESSON.
Very thoughtful video. I love the open mindedness of it. Thanks.
Almost everything I've learned about grip/technique is from Steve Smith's 'Drumset Technique/History of the U.S. Beat' DVD from 2002. Great video, and remember-- use whatever grip works best for the song part, drum, tuning, position, desired volume, etc. and change it up as many times as you need to. There's no one "right" grip/technique.
Been at this grip mystery for decades. Watched hundreds of vids & books all the stuff you know about. Major break thru was learning to play ever thing at p.
at p? as in pianissimo?
I like middle finger fulcrum. If you lay your hand out loose and limp, the pointer finger is naturally out front, and the stick can very naturally lay between the first joint of the middle finger and the thumb. learned from a Dave Weckl video. I only use the index finger fulcrum for buzz rolls
Best lesson on stick technique I've seen.
I don't know how, but I naturally arrived at middle finger/thumb fulcrum with the index totally relaxed and acting as a guide. Ring and pinky fingers active and ready for drop catch and stuff.
S A M E HERE too!🤷♂️
Great video, I mostly agree with your conclusion but not entirely. For instance, at least from what I have seen, Jimmy Chamberlin, who definitely falls in the hard hitting category, gets away very well with a very loose back hand grip.
I've been using Dave Weckl's 3 point fulcrum since I saw his evolution video years ago, with help from Tony to understand how important the back of the hand is.
but for young students I still struggle with teaching grip, I believe it's something that needs to evolve with our playing, I'm not sure a 6 or 7 year old can grasp the subtlety of a front or rear fulcrum... at least I haven't had much luck in conveying it.
Mostly I lead with a handshake grip and wrist strokes to get things progressing with the least error to build from.
Does anyone have a similar experience? or has anyone had solid luck teaching younger beginners more involved techniques?
Same. I started using the Weckl/Gruber grip as soon as I saw that VHS back in the day as a teenager
I sometimes grip the sticks between the index and middle and find it helps align my hands and arms really well and helps with normal grip....
I'm looking at mechanics of movement (revisited) recently. Mainly because I lost decades of technique muscling out lots of loud bands with no time for proper review. Anyhow 2019 my big break was a quad bypass so I had a few months to relearn my lost art and rest my muscles up. In the middle of this they had me cut out some cancer so more down time. Anyhow recoveries done they won't let me retire and I'm still with three bands and numerous deps. So as I work out what I'm doing I might drop in some tips.
A curious observation for gigging players is that during WW2 British MI5 operators would recognise the morse code "handwriting" of resistance operatives they dropped into France. Their radio suitcases were very heavy. This meant that after their drop and the usual long walk to their destination they would have to wait two hours before coding back to base in the UK as their muscle fatigue meant that their "handwriting" was unrecognisable so could be a German soldier after capturing the agent. Anyhow, the point being that this also happens to musicians loading in heavy gear so after load in and set up massage, loosen up, press on the forearms to find tender spots and generally give the area some attention before you warm up or play. Make sure your handwriting is steady.
I was self taught from the age of 9. When I took lesson at 14 my instructor noted that my left hand was "German", and my right hand is "French".
Once I evened out my wrists I was playing super heavy using more of a back finger grip. I was breaking sticks, heads, and even RUDE cymbals. That was all through my high school years. Just after that I started using a more front end grip, which afforded me a TON of control and finesse.
That same year (1996) Steve Smith. Dave Weckl, and Neil Peart shared their studies with Freddy Gruber. So, I studied and taught that for years. That was also when I started playing traditional grip.
After that I studied corps technique, which really strengthened my wrists. But I'd always go back to the Gruber stuff.
In 2010 I radically changed my set up from the "Vikki Foxx" (Enuff Z'nuff, Vince Neil) which was one rack two floor set up, back to a variation of what I played in high school - minus the second bass drums and two rack toms instead of three.
I was studying a ton of old Vinnie Colaiuta, and Jeff Porcaro clips. My friend and former co-instrutor at the shop where I taught, Charles David Stuart showed me how he gripped and it was back to the forward fulcrum I stumbled upon in 1996. This was in 2010.
For that year that grip allowed me to finally achieve the balance of control and looseness that I was needing in my playing as my new band had me playing complex parts that demanded precision. Through the years I'd vasillate between that and the looser Gruber approach.
In 2016 I studied Buddy Rich's approach and I could blaze. It's actually not that far from what I'm doing with the forward grip.
Today I've been pretty consistent with the forward grip. I'm so happy with what I can do with it, but I'm just now starting to be able to be very loose with it. In the right hand it's more of a cradle with the first and second fingers. The thumb is more there for bracing. There isn't a ton of actual pressure involved. The trad left hand is similar, with the stick being cradled under the first and second fingers, and the thumb testing on top of the first finger, on the middle segment of the first finger.
I'm set up with the standard six piece, and my snare is angles slightly toward me. I've been fortunate to have my shoulders stay pretty even.
One huge adjustment has been my sticks. It appears that Regal Tip is no longer in active production, which had me looking for a suitable replacement. Vic Firth 5A and 5B Double glaze came to the rescue. These sticks replace the Groovers and 5B Regals. The Firth allow for even more finesse! I consider this a win.
Thanks, Nate! Great presentation as always!
- Dan
I broke my thumb and resorted to gripping between my forefinger and middle finger. It was surprisingly workable, but nothing I'd ever opt to do. I worked with a guy to get my thumb back in shape, so no more weird callouses on the inside of my forefinger.
I do a variation, basically, of double-traditional, but my ultimate goal is to "have no grip", or rather to use whatever works the best with a.) my physiology, and b.) the song. I started doing double-traditional because coming from guitar/bass I have more strength and dexterity in fingers 2 and 3, and I wanted to take advantage of that. Almost every other grip leaves finger 2 neutral, hence one of the (many) reasons for my choice. This is all great info, I'll double-check on the wrist stuff just be sure I'm not doing anything wrong there. Volume is of lesser importance to me, as is speed, as I am a Funk drummer first and foremost and don't really do jazz/rock/country/etc.
The key for me was keeping my ring & pinky fingers on the stick, middle finger as the fulcrum. It really helped me to rely less on rebound.
Mmm pretty general, there are a lot of factors that influence which technique u use. Rolls, stickings, press rolls, dynamics, surfaces, concert snare or drums. Spivack won’t be useful when playing drums very hard, but you’ll get creamy rolls and beautiful stickings. Chapin will be great for hitting hard or gruber at mid dynamics. Best advice is, whatever tech u use, do not squeeze!
nice explanation with a good demonstration at the kit in action THX 👍
Over my many years of playing but only in the last couple of years have a I really noticed what my hands are doing and I have been going through multiple grips depending on what is needed so I guess the actual question to the "correct grip" is what is the right grip for that situation.
If you look at the mechanics like a steam engine piston arms. The shoulder and the elbow are transport support mechanisms for the wrist and hand and the wrist is a transport for the hand and the hand the fingers. The end result of this view is that when the joint has reached the destinated position it should stop. Then motion is taken up by the transported wrist / fingers until they need another taxi ride for an accent or position. This should achieve maximum efficiency of movement. This should work for any technique and I believe many players unconsciously use this. Young players or players exploring a new technique may make a movement of a joint that should be at rest and thus lose stick motion co-ordination and control. hope that helps.
Wes Starr, a noted blues drummer, uses the stick between first & middle fingers technique (due to a power tool accident). It's a great accommodation for him, since he experiences pain when his thumb is in contact with the stick. It feels to me much like playing marimba or vibes using a cross-stick, or Burton grip. Claus Hessler is a proponent of the "caveman grip", where his thumbs are below the sticks. I've stopped bugging my students about how they hold the sticks, as long as they get results & their grip isn't preventing them from playing the music.
the less i think about grip, the better lol your sense of touch and balance will tell you exactly where you need to hold a stick for each application. all these different grips are just taught as small technical objectives for beginners who are uncertain and need a starting point
Well, this is the first time I've heard someone talk about ulnar deviation of the wrist. I believe, in my humble opinion, that ulnar deviation (the side to side extension of the wrists) is the greatest cause for long term injury because of the strain put upon the wrists. Palmar/dorsal flexion ( the up and down extension of the wrists) is fine because the arm, using a "whipping" action, absorbs a lot of the stress that would otherwise be placed on the wrists solely.
In my experience, using German grip as much as possible while using the combination arm/wrist-whip technique, seems to have given me the most efficiency and range of motion. Ever since I've adapted these techniques, those 3-4+ hour gigs are no trouble. Also, no death grip on the stick, mostly a triangular index/middle finger/thumb fulcrum, and all fingers on the sticks at all times for doubles, ghosts, etc.
Just my opinion though. Everyone is physiologically different. So what works for me may not work for everyone or anyone else.
I have a genetic predisposition to stress on the tendon that runs from the thumb down the side of the wrist. This is a huge issue and I see the issue of ulnar deviation of the wrist all the time. I have excellent technique and I developed a condition so bad that I needed surgery. This issue is serious.
I picked up on that too, I haven't heard anyone mention it before. So I wonder whether that same wrist movement can lead to injury when playing in the French grip position, thumb nail pointing up and wrist moving up and down?
@@shamusenright5387 That's a good question. Some players switch the dominant hand to thumb-on-top while riding on the cymbal. It makes sense, because it feels more natural to do so. I think that's fine, there isn't nearly as much stress on the wrist when riding on a moving cymbal as opposed to a fixed drum head, and it's not really a definitive French grip because the whip motion still applies. Otherwise, unless you're a concert timpanist, my belief FWIW is that French grip just isn't effective and could potentially lead to problems.
That's just me though. I'm not a kinesiologist or anything. Just a guy who has been playing music (everything from orchestra to jazz to heavy metal) and applying different techniques for 40 years or so.
@@chadeckels Yes I think most players use French grip when playing the ride. I've noticed when playing french with the wrist extended, the up and down motion rotates the forearm rather than just the wrist. Perhaps this takes some stress away from the wrist, I'm not sure. Anyhow, always good to revisit technique to reduce stress on the hands and wrists.
@@shamusenright5387 It can and it absolutely does.
German grip here. I stick my elbows out to play other drums besides the snare so I don’t have to go franchie and lose power. I also keep the whole kit low so I always have power without having to use shoulder movement. Saves a lot of energy.
Great video. I think technique also means motion. Tommy Igoe and Johnny Madar talks a lot about this. It’s about flow and not about forcing your hands to do one thing or another.
I personally think that continually using the same grip causes more fatigue. It really helps to just intuitively alter between various ones that work best for you to add textures and such. It's really tough to think of trying to make all the infinite amount of tones available with using just one grip.
Also, dude, holy shit, you're about to break 100k. 🏆🥂🏁🤘
I second this idea
I’m not a drummer and not a doctor, but from what I know of RSI you are correct. You want to avoid repetitive stress from one motion.
Wow great examples, from artists I really look up to!
Yes, I usually play whilst holding my sticks backwards like daggers
Good idea for a video. Thanks!
I know you are more into the jazzy side of drumming, but have you looked into the technical death metal drumming, like the band Archspire, or progressive metal like Periphery and Meshuggah? I hope you see past "it's just double kick and blast beats". I see you are familiar with Animals As Leaders. It's super fun to see jazz drummers explore the metal side of drumming.
Nate should try learning "Stengah" by Meshuggah, good slow tempo song to start out with yet has quintessential Haake-isms and is tough to pull off convincingly.
I use (what I've learned of) the Spivack method as a foundation, but freely use other techniques if it allows me to accomplish something faster/easier - Moeller, finger technique, push/pull, etc. While there are some great drummers who only use the Spivack method and no more, I don't think Spivack ever believed other techniques were not viable (although he disapproved of Richard Wilson's modifications to his technique). He was just very focused on getting the most necessary aspects of technique (wrists, arms, rebound control), to an adequately high level.
This is all hearsay though, as I only got to study with three of his students, but not him, and I never made it through the entire curriculum (~2 years of snare drum, practicing at least 2 hours every day).
In the end, I think technique, particularly in the early stages, is a balancing act between simplicity/ease of understanding, and optimization. A combination of different techniques might be the best way to play, but it isn't necessarily the best way to teach or learn, as it can be overwhelming to some early students. It would be like teaching a kid algebra when they're still learning arithmetic.
There are so many people on the Internet that studied a little while with Murray Spivak or Richard Wilson and have very little understanding of what they were teaching them. One of the misconceptions is that Murray and Richard taught a three finger grip. This is a complete misunderstanding of what they were being taught. They would show a new student the three fingered grip so that they could learn to feel the fulcrum in the middle finger. Once they knew that the student understood and could feel the fulcrum in their middle finger they would discuss the function of the fourth and fifth fingers. Anyone who thinks that they were exclusively teaching a three finger grip just never got past the basics with either teacher. Another misconception about Murray and Richard is that their concept of a down stroke is the same as Moeller. Again another complete misconception of what Murray and Richard were teaching.
Overwhelming to early students is right on. One can get lost with all those techniques bouncing around in one's head while just trying to play along with a favorite song.
I was the weirdo. I used traditional on most snare heavy work and alternate quickly to match for the majority. Since I was playing rock, fusion , funk , metal....I was taught or took jazz lessons from my 3rd to 6th year playing. So my instructor brutally pushed the rock nature out of my playing. I would learn what I was taught and go home and play my way. Hahah. Until I realized he influenced me. I would play for 27 years. Then circumstances with living in fear of eviction after losing everything in Katrina ...I had to be safe as a single dad. Focused on my son and daughter and he played guitar. I kept saying , I'll get a kit one day again. I played keys a bit. But when he and she grad and moved on I picked up guitar. I love it. But I do miss drums. One day I say still...I'll get another. Probably completely suck now.
Excellent video Nate.
I feel like not enough people talk about how there is not right grip. Bodies are different. The way bones/muscles sit in different people is so different. If you compare even trad grip from Stewart Copeland who slays with the stick sitting on his index finger compared to middle finger. Or how Glen Sobel TECHNICALLY does about everything wrong in his grip BUT that's how the stick is comfortable to him and doesn't cause pain. It's just about playing with how your body is comfortable playing where you're not held back and feel no pain. You can learn every "bounce" method in any grip as long you are using the right grip for you.
I love Tony Williams pinky finger hold.
Learn all the relevant techniques to find what sits best for your hands. Your hand is like a gear box and the technique are the gears. Sometimes you want to go fast, slow, hard, soft, intricate, etc, and that requires different gears much the same as a vehicle has different gears for different speeds, gradients, etc. You wouldn’t normally use French grip to play metal and you wouldn’t normally use the back two finger grip (Tony Williams) to play orchestral snare, etc. Different gears for different jobs.
Being louse, having a high range of volume, always with great control of the stick and producing a great stroke sound is the most important things to have in my opinion. All of those are related to each other in some way.
check Carmine Appice wrt the between the fingers grip! (I don't, but it seems efficient.)
Yeah! Get down @ the bass space
🤩🌝💫
A good example that stick grip is more personal than not, is seeing disabled drummers play. They play really well, because their technique works well for them.
Case in point: ruclips.net/video/hsKKJw_vA9E/видео.html
It's only wrong, if it's tense, it hurts, and/or you can't get the desired sound needed. I personally dig the Tony Williams grip which utilizes the back two fingers. I get much stronger, clearer fills (even using doubles around the drums) and solid backbeats, that way.
To get right volume balance on toms, you have to smack them harder, big mistake I see is French grip on tom fills, can’t hear them 🤷♂️
thanks for the video dude
If the grip your using allows you to comfortably achieve all you need to do, then you have the correct grip FOR YOU
I just want to ask... why the spd sx? This may be the most expensive practices pad ever.... for a grip video.
Interesting, as always
Double-trad grip was funny as heck.
You should discuss this with Bill Bachman
Btw, i expect your comments on Ramon Montagner's technique
XD haha
The best thing i ever did was get rid of the index finger/fhumb death grip. it cramps the hand muscles and kills rebound.
Check out the drummer for Bill Withers in an early 70s live video of the band performing. He is super in the pocket but his grip technique is totally odd! That should answer the question right there. Of course, having good grip technique is hugely important, but point is you can make it work however feels right.
Check out how Ari Hoenig holds his sticks. Very unconventional; but, it works and he sounds great. He plays at that Chris stream.
The Murray Spivack and Richard Wilson technique completely changed my playing for ever. Nothing even comes close to it. It's really all about physics. The whole "free stroke" makes absolutely no sense at all, why would you want to grab the stick whilst at the top? you can't do nothing with it at that height. That's why Murray talks so much about stopping at the floor (1 inch above the surface) at all times. The reason why the back 2 fingers are not involved in the grip is because they kill the grip and kill resonance, that's not to say you can't use them if you're playing really loud. Take a look at Richard Wilson's article on Modern Drummer
on the Roland pad
Brilliant!
You need to close the gap between the thumb and the hand for 1st finger fulcrum to work
yea cause I didn't spend 5 years practicing and teaching that method ;)
You don't, check out Dave Elitch
@@8020drummer Ok, I commented because - from what I saw in your video , you had a gap when playing on the pad. I thought "Thats not good. The indexfinger cant play the stick. It can only hold it. How is the stick supposed to pivot under the thumb? The stick will just slide off it"
And in an interview Virgil said he disagrees with the conventional wisdom(s) regarding stick grip. Thoughts?
Makes perfect sense to me. I’m self taught and just fell into that technique. I must say though Buddy Rich snacks the sh*t out of the kit with a trad grip, as do most of the big band guys. I like to play trad sometimes to pretend I’m Steve Gadd in a sort of sad case hero worship. Shameful really for a man of my age 🙄
Same! self taught, never consciously thought about grip… but after 100s or 1000s of hours playing, you fall into something practical that satisfies comfort, versatility, and endurance. Maybe We just got lucky.
I'm a self-taught drummer, too, who just plays for fun. This is great info but I just got's to be me. It seems like I use just about everything described at one time or another, except for the traditional grip on the left hand. But it has got to be fun and it seems every song teaches me something new. Rock on!
Have to agree, I personally think there isn’t a “right” way. It’s dependent on style of play and what works best for that individual person. I feel most comfortable playing French and a modified French for Jazz and Funk-
It's wrong if it hurts and double wrong if you end ups at the doctors. Humans grip and play with stuff in an endless variety of ways. Long may it be so.
I find my grip adjusts naturally to what I'm playing.
Look at el esteparios hands, there is no gap between the thumb and index finger
Of course it's whatever works for you. Probably a good idea to be relaxed, and have the control to play whatever you want to hear, rhythmically and dynamically. But aside from that, I suppose no rules.
I feel like technique is the "Bastard Child" of drum topics! People's arms and fingers are different sizes and in some cases move in very different ways. You watch videos where they use the word Rebound like it's the sponsor, and then play on a pillow at the end and sound just as good. You see guys like Sonny Emory play timpani style (French grip) and get plenty of speed and power in every situation...I barely get by with it on the snare drum. Then there's the whole fulcrum thing. I watch a lot of drum videos and I rarely see the butt of the stick at all. Gavin Harrison is a good example, he looks like he's barely got any stick in his hand at all??? Idk 🤷♂️ Me personally, I can hold 90bpm with my single kick all day but my right hand will eventually fall behind. I really wish I had great hands but I just don't. I've spent enough time down the technique rabbit hole already though.
My favorite facepalm on stick technique was “hold the stick at its fulcrum” 🤣, couldn’t skip fast enough…
Sounds like the "Hold a bird" suggestion but for sticks, enough to not let it fly away but loose enough to not hurt it.
Naw you can still pretty much death grip it
@@8020drummer Oh no! Ze bird!
Listen to your teachers. Take on board what they have to say. Practice it. Then slowly morph it into what is truly comfortable for you.
I love that you turn the question around - "is there a wrong way?" Brillian. BTW I've actually resorted to "between index and middle finger" for a while - on days when my thumb tendinitis is acting up! (I'm Owwwld ha ha) ruclips.net/video/zNszyvTRh2Q/видео.html
Yes! What you said…
Like it like it
How a drummer holds the stick should never be set in stone. In any given song a drummer changes grip several times. In long songs switching between handshake and palms down works diffrent muscles so helps endurance. Work the hats frantically then switch as fatigue sets in. Focus on playing relaxed then increase tempo until tension sets in then just drop back a little until relaxation can be maintained at higher and higher tempos while relaxing and playing as quietly as possible when you do show power it will be that much more impressive and you’ll still be fresh at the end of every set that you can now make longer and longer. Have the guitars stop from bloody fingers not because you can’t keep up.
The grip is entirely dépendant on the rudiment and or fill. Marching emphasizes pinched grip because there is no orchestrating around a kit so the strikes are landing in the same spot no need for a Travis Barker style (the other end of the spectrum when it’s all single stroke power and no ghosted diddles, basically) A middle ground would be a grip nested in the hand with the pointer finger along the top aka Anika Nils. Remember each rudiment, fill, beat and grove is entirely dépendant on stick grip. One doesn’t engage the back fingers during a cross stick or a one handed roll (Teeter totter the stick between the drum head and the rim pinching at the fulcrum) any more than a rock drummer needs a delicate touch.
What I realized during watching this video off all of your teachers and in all my study of no one mentions HAND SHAPE! Hands are so much a part of human we take for granted everyone’s hand is different and therefore must grip things in different ways. (The handshake is a perfect metaphor for this.) some have longer index fingers than middle fingers. Some have fat hands, sender fingers, stubby fingers ect. even though no one even considers this yet it must affect each drummer individually for optimum grip in light of the particular sound one is attempting to produce. Tony Williams has a good video where he put in his two on grip.
“Double Trad…” 😂😂😂😂
Do you have gear sponsors yet?
It seems so. Some Telegram dude ROFL
@@balfit LOL