Thanks for watching! I am planning on making new tier list every few months as I play through more and more Roguelikes so make sure to subscribe if you enjoy this kind of content! 🌶
@@warriorelijah639 you missed a couple (for example some I've played lately: Neuro Voider, Little Noah, Mortal Sin), but thank you so much, a lot of incredible titles I need to try asap, I dreamed of a game like Spirit Fall for a long time and cannot wait to play it!
I would love to hear your thoughts on Against the Storm (2023). This game is a roguelite citybuilder that plays like a legacy board game! 160hrs in and I am still coming back. While I can go on about this game for ages, I am going to paraphrase the official announcement trailer, ‘Sometimes, oh sometimes it just clicks, everything falls into place . . . but that rarely happens. Not as long as the forest has it say’
@@HiddenArch87 did the fix the deleted saves shit it had a while back? Got it on gamepass and played for 12 hrs straight only to have my saves deleted the next day instant uninstall
Dude, you’re a master at compiling, editing, and presenting these tier lists. I’ve been playing roguelikes since that AD&D game on Intellivision, which dropped in the early 80s, and thoroughly enjoy your commentary on the genre as it continues to evolve. I appreciate your hard, tenacious work!
@@kroooassant9899 hmm idk about that, it can be super fun but it's not particularly outstanding and it's worse than every single game he put on S tier. The run-to-run loop isn't even as interesting as, say, Gunfire Reborn
As someone who also loves The Void Rains Upon Her Heart as much as you seem to, I implore you to keep playing Star of Providence! I do agree, TVRUHH does ease you in more, but it also has a different progression. Once you become more familiar with the game and the size of the screen, it becomes very intuitive! Movement feels very precise, and once you adjust to the fact that your dodge generally isn’t invincible, you’ll start improving in no time. The game is more focused on the action and self-improvement more than the meta progression, and yet there are plenty of secrets and a big update on the horizon! Meet the gsme where it’s at-a true SHMUP bullet-hell-and you’ll have a good time.
After seeing a few comments on the game already, I’ll definitely go back to try it again! I wasn’t a fan of its approach to new players but even though I find early impressions in some instances as important as late impressions, I do enjoy a challenge so I’ll try to complete game and may rerate it in a future tier list. Thank you for letting me know! ;)
Wow - you've hit almost every Rogue like/lite I can think of in these videos, with actual commentary. The Flame in the Flood is one you might not have played - traveling down a river choosing stops along the way. Absolutely killer soundtrack.
I love how you explain each roguelike in this list, your descriptions are so good at summarizing the key points of each game on the list. Found a new game to obsess over thanks to you! (Atomicrops, holy crap this game is amazing)
Once again, thank you for the enormous effort that went into this list. I was sooo happy seeing that there is a part 2. Will be waiting impaitiently for the third installment. My steam and playstation wishlists grow thanks to your lists 😄
Please check out The Land Beneath Us! It’s got some design elements I REALLY dig that surprised me quite a bit. Without spoiling too much there are additional mechanics (which are quite substantial) you unlock after progressing a bit but it’s honestly not too difficult to do. It’s the kind of hidden gem where you know if they continued to support it or put out a sequel it could be something really special.
If you don't mind, a few suggestions for part 3: - Endless Dungeon (tower defense/action) -Deliverance&Reign (deckbuilder with 2 POVs, basically 2 games in 1) - Monster Slayers (deckbuilder) -Bit Dungeon + (action) -In Celebration of Violence (it's a top down souslike... I won't shut up about this game bc it's one of my favorites) Thank you again man, I'm a huge fan of yours
I picked up Void Rains Upon Her Heart thanks in no small part due to your review of it. I’m still hoping for an in-depth, separate video of the game, too!
YES, I’ve been patiently (at least trying to lol) waiting for this for so long, not only does it introduce me to new roguelikes but to see how similar or different a professional feels about the ones I’ve played myself thank you so much. Also if you haven’t played or heard of the game, I highly suggest Picayune dreams. Fantastic game that honestly needs some more attention
i've played double the amount of time in Astrea than Slay the Spire . I like when a build works well, and you take risk , one of my favorite Deckbuilder.
Do have three recommendations for really well made decently unique roguelikes, all very highly rated, but not much publicity, and all that I personally love: Brutal Orchestra - A party management turn based roguelike with very unique combat mechanics. It's similar to Roboquest in that the story is core, alongside some very enjoyable gameplay, and multiple things to discover and unlock along the way with new characters and quest do obtain between runs. Thematically grim with interesting visuals. Dome Keeper - A combination of digging/resource hunting and defending. There's a bunch of different gadgets that change up how you mine, defend and transport resources in each run, each with their own upgrade trees, as well as diffrent core starting aspects such as the dome you defend with and the core gadget that change up how you tackle each run. It's not incredibly in-depth with variety, but theres still a good chunk of content and it's very enjoyable to play. Slice & Dice - A dice-based roguelike party management game. You have a party of 5 units, each with their own dice of effects, that you can 'evolve' into different more powerful units, alongside collecting items that effect your units and their dice. Turn based combat that's rather easy to digest every turn, but there's just a ton of content to unlock, a lot of replayability with multiple different game modes, and it's even on mobile! It's incredibly affordable, and an insanely fun game to just pick up and play whenever on your phone, though it's also on pc as well, does just feel smoother to play on mobile. I respect your tierlists of these games, and personally have learned of some new ones I definitely plan to try, so I hope you try these games for yourself. They're definitely more niche games (especially Brutal Orchestra and Slice & Dice) that could use more attention
Death must die's latest update added skill trees for each character and if you manage to get all the skill points it makes characters feel different. I started playing just before this update and felt the same way as you described.
True - I have played about 150 hours before the Act 2 patch and another about 50 post the Act 2 patch. The game has changed quite a lot - It feels refreshed and more interesting. If one has played it before the current patch has changed a lot for the better
Death road to Canada is the only roguelike i can think of that wasn't in either of these videos. so that's a new one you could try for the next ranking video.
Oh man you’re right! This really shows how great the developers have been with their updates. I guess I’ll have to include it in ANOTHER tier list once it finally comes out ;)
As someone who only got into roguelikes a couple of years ago, I highly recommend trying more Tales of Maj'Eyal For me, it's the perfect roguelike without the tedium of traditional roguelikes.
It's an awesome video, I share many of your POV :). You should take a look at Lonestar : not very difficult to get into, FTL vibes (only aesthetically), simple yet not simplisitic. Dicefolk is also very nice, however easy it may be ! You pick a team of 3 monsters, you play your dice and those of the enemy : if you are used to these kind of games, you will undoubtedly like it !
Huge recommendation for Nightmare Reaper. I’ve sunk an embarrassing amount of time into it lol. It’s a boomer shooter roguelite with a ton of weapons and really satisfying gameplay. It is a REALLY lengthy game though. Also would be interested to hear your thoughts on Doomsday Hunters; it has a baffling amount of content. Another big recommendation is Against the Storm, which is a city-building roguelike. Every run feels very unique, the art is great, and there’s a really good amount of content
in Dicey Dungeons, I could usually mix around my equipment/items so that every number on the die would be useful for a different equipment. There are some equipments that really want low numbers, some that want high, some that just want odd, etc.
With the inherent complications Dice building Roguelikes have, Dicey Dungeons does a pretty decent job with making every roll have potential uses. Alas for me, I feel like the core mechanics don’t utilize them as well as a game such as Astrea and really do require specific items and equipments. I just felt like overall, the RNG of rolls was much more impactful, whether I did or did not have a good build. But once again, I do think the game is still very strategic even with this RNG and I’m sure if I put many hours into it I’d be able to get around it more easily, but most games will naturally tend to get more consistent if players put in many hours into them, especially for ones that are well designed, Dicey Dungeons included.
A few roguelikes that I've really enjoyed but don't think you've gone over are Steredenn, Neon Sundown, Cobalt Core, and Spirit Hunters. There's more I remembered while I was checking my Steam library, but these were on the top of my mind after watching the video
I really disagree with ravenswatch. I actually like that you cannot animation cancel and that dash has the cooldown that it has. It makes you learn what enemies actually do rather than just spamming dash. It really feels satisfying when you know when to dash, when to use defensive skill, and when your opening for dealing damage is. I wouldn't call the gameplay clunky, to me the gameplay feels slow and tactical on purpose. If you set your expectations that the pacing will be akin to something like death must die, then you will be easily disappointed. I don't think the developers will ever "fix" the dash cooldown, it feels purposeful. I was also a bit puzzled when you said it's just like diablo with rougelike elements. To me, this feels nothing like diablo where you slay thousands of enemies and usually spam the same ability over and over. Here, you use many abilities, they have long cooldown, and you have to strategically pick which enemies / camps / events to fight and which to skip and when. Having said all of this, I don't want to be some negative nancy :D so I'll just add that I've really enjoyed the video. Your hard work really shows here and I appreciate it.
Yeah I have realized, despite claiming to play all these games for extensive hours and being an "expert" in roguelikes and roguelites, his takes are Abit odd and don't make sense and there is tons of examples for it from part 1 and part 2, I just watched his ranking videos to know the games, but his options on them should not be you decision maker.
I love Wildfrost because the builds can get insane! (I.e. having a card with 123 attack), and I do like that you can plan your starting leader to counter the boss that you have to beat. But what I find to be very unsatisfying is that you're locked into a build from the start, so you might find three loot options that actively worsen your build and you just have to give them up and make no progress. And this especially sucks when it happens throughout your entire run, stopping your very promising build from ever getting legs
Gotta respectfully disagree with ravenswatch, it is honestly so fun learning the different combinations of the heroes abilities, also the dash doesnt need to be spammy like hades 1, all the characters have a nice feel and dont feel the same
really interested in what you think of rabbit and steel. personally been really enjoying that one, although the single player can be a little eh. also very much like the free flowing style of these videos compared to the shorter, scripted videos. was interesting hearing your perspective on blazblue which doesnt really compare it to the fighting games
I don’t know how I found you but I’m glad I did. Thank you for the amazing content, I’m adding a bunch of games to my wishlist. A small request would be a link to the tierlists you make for the videos. It would make it a bit easier for me to add all these amazing recommendations. Definitely earned your like and subscribe from me already, thank you 🙏
I think what would have been cool is to absorb the old tier list first, and then added these to it. This only creates more questions about how the A and up games compare to the older rated ones. Like would the S-tiers even be S if they were on the other tier list with some of the all time GOATs. Etc.
Id push Spellrogue up a tier or 2 because its actively in development and there is a lot of depth to it. Like you said, there are times where low numbers profit and high numbers profit, but things like shards making you focus on what you really want to upgrade, and game-changing relics are common, and help spice up every run.
There are indeed some customizable options through the runs, I just wish there were a few more! I do understand that the game is in its early stages of life which is why I’m always happy to try these games again once they get bigger updates. As long as it is on steam and purchasable, I’ll be reviewing them in their current stage. I’ll look forward to seeing the new additions to the game hopefully soon enough ;)
Thanks for your videos,i started playing revita and oh boy this is immersive and various game,but i feel kinda crappy that you missed "slice and dice" game,its really has interesting concept and challenging gameplay,btw keep going,you have very interesting videos im gonna sub. P.S hope you get popular)
Another comment I must make since I love rewatching this video, I’m surprised you didn’t take another look at astral ascent considering the 1.0 released and several updates since then. Must say it is purely fantastic myself. Perhaps if there’s a ranking rogue likes THREE lol
My favorite mobile rogue deck building game is night of the full moon. I believe it's on steam. If you what to play a wonderful game with great characters, boss, cards, spell and more.
Ooh, I forgot there is a lot more such as more bosses, puzzle, secret lores, many different game modes and a super final boss. If you want to know more I the guy
Disey Dungeons is one of my favorite games of all time. I don’t think the random nature of the dice is a real problem, since the entire game is based around taking chances and crossing your fingers. I think not knowing if you’re gonna die next turn leads to interresting strategic gameplay, where you need to decide if you wanna try your best to end the fight, or pray you don’t die. Also every character has an ability that charges when they take enough damage, and I think that’s a good counter to the whole enemy randomness argument, since all of the characters’ abilities could pretty much win you a fight instantly. (Jester especially) If you play your cards right (pun intended), and have the game knowledge needed, it’s pretty easy to completely rig a run. Like when I was doing a hard mode run as the thief and got a build where no matter what I rolled I could gain like 5 extra dice, turn them all into 3s and do 6 damage pr dice. Stuff like that. What I’m trying to say is, you should reconsider the Dicey Dungeons placement :)) Also the soundtrack is absoloutely amazing, idk how you couldn’t comment on the soundtrack fkfkebejgi
You make a fair point. I’m willing to bet my rating could change if I were to play many more hours, which I unfortunately didn’t have the time to do so. I do indeed see the crazy potential of the game which is why I still believe this game is amazing for anyone that has hundreds of hours to put into. I might personally be less into the overall dice gameplay then many in general but I’ll continue giving it a try for sure! And yes, absolute banger soundtrack, that should have been mentioned ;)
Honestly the Star of Providence rating, as much as I understand that you didn't like the game, it feels like more of a skill issue and preference issue than an actual design issue. You expected something, didn't get what you expect and got something more unique that is well designed with the design choices it takes, and complained about it. Let's talk about all the complaints. "I play a lot of bullet hells." --> I know skills from one type of game should go to another, but there is a reason these are challenging and ruthless games that require you to learn new patterns of enemies. That is the DNA of the genre, and it is why this genre is hard in general. Small screen --> the entire feel of the game and the artstyle is based on this more arcadey feeling. Everything is also kinda balanced around the small space and quite quick movement speed. Again, this would be an issue if it wouldn't be such a vital part of the game's DNA. "If you don't know enemy movesets, you will take damage." --> This is the point of bullet hells. Understanding and knowing the patterns and how to adapt to them. You are supposed to die, go back into the dungeon, and learn what enemies/bosses do. The fact that you have to do that makes me think it is well designed. "Almost feels like try and error," --> Every roguelike is trial and error, since the progress comes from skill progression and not metaprogress. "You don't have time to react." --> You do, it is just more difficult. I understand the skill jump is higher than most modern roguelikes that have an ascension system that makes the game difficult and the base game is easy, but there is time to react, there is time to learn, and that is the point of the game and the genre. Both bullet hells and roguelikes. "Feels frustrating and unfair" --> All bosses and enemies from what I remember have one attack with a visual, or many visuals to signify attacks. It feels frustrating probably because you expected to do better as a bullet hell player - which is understandable, especially with your ranking of VRUHH - but the game is not unfair. "Dash doesn't make you invulnerable" --> I am sorry, again, I have to disagree. Dash giving you i-frames is such a boring ass move from bullet hells and makes more bullet hells a "when to dash" spamfest instead of an actual bullet hell. The lack of i-frames forces you to learn and understand the enemies and rooms, instead of clicking dash randomly and praying you will not get hit. It still gives you the speed and also changes your position dramatically, it is basically like a jump/sprint button almost. Most bullet hells do not have the dash i-frame mechanic, mostly EtG and games going from EtG (which are like very easy compared to VRUHH or Star of Providence) have this mechanic. "Too punishing," --> Again, imo, it is more of a issue of modern roguelikes being easy with ascension systems and being punishing in later stages instead of - as it was in the past - the game being punishing from the get-go. I am using this "past" argument since the game is originally from 2017. "Health is too hard to come by" --> Shops? Max HP upgrades? Maybe scrapping weapons that gives you health? There are simple ways to gain health back, the game just lets you discover that with time and with your skill/knowledge of the game growing. Some tips? Use bombs. Bombs are basically just clear the screen from bullets and they help a lot at the beginning. You can practice bosses in the mirror that is quite helpful. And just play the game more in general. To conclude, Star of Providence is not a badly designed game. Its skill ceiling is just of the normal roguelike in the past instead of the 2024 roguelikes. I am writing this not because I want to be like: "You had a skill issue and that is why low rating" but more of: "The game is hard, but it is not badly designed."
You need to play a game called "Isle of Arrows" It's pretty much a better version of the Rogue Tower game that you talked about in the first video, and it's kind of exactly the game you were describing when you were talking about what you wanted out of Rogue Tower.
Also, I recommend checking out a game called Yamafuda. It takes the basic structure of a deckbuilding roguelike and turns it into something that feels almost like a completely different kind of game. It starts off very easy, since it's more focused on the concept of being a cute & relaxing game about hiking, but you can eventually work your way up to a difficulty comparable to other deckbuilding roguelikes. Also, it's been out for a few years, and its sequel is about to release, this year. (The first game is called 2nd Station, because it's a more fleshed-out version of a much-less-fleshed out mobile game, that's hard to find access to, but the new sequel is called Summit.)
Also also, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on another deckbuilding roguelike called Heat Death. It's kinda scuffed in some ways related to balance, but it also has some very interesting mechanics. In that same vein, another game, that made me feel a similar vibe to Heat Death, and with even-more-interesting deckbuilder mechanics, is called... some name that I completely forgot, but I remember that Olexa played it, and I watched the video sometime during 2022-2023. It had a "cybertron" aesthetic to it, and it had this very unique Roguelike Deckbuilder system, "reinventing the roguelike deckbuilder genre"
I know you didn5t mention nuclear throne here, but if you loop, it can go on forever with even more secrets like boss3s, floors, ultra mutations, and new enemies. So in your last video B tier was very undeserved
Wildfrost is hard and too rng based, there is runs you can literally tell you gonna win straight from the first boss and there is runs that you can also tell is a loss no matter what you do, so either restart or keep going for another fight and die anyways, wish it wasn't random in getting the cards but just in drawing them, also the little trinkets or perks or whatever they are called most of them are useless, there is few that are busted specially when stacked up but again getting them is also random, overall the game is fun for the first win and few hours but then you realize the issues and just drop out.
Yaaa i clicked becouse alina was on tubnail - ryly nobody knows that game - to me its more like it was inspired by the game on the phone named Gladiator (or something like that) Also 1 game i think you might not played called shogun showdown - its kinda creazy how simple it is - while requiring strategising and thinking aheard Also "Sunless Sea" can be clasified as roguelite but its like 70% story focused and its EPIC its on my top 10 games propably Last one - Outer Wilds - my 1# of all games - it is knowledge based game but if i strech my imagination i can say its a roguelike becouse i want everybody to expirience it - just one rule for it - ANY spoiler about it ruins the game Lastly Curse of the dead gods peak clasic roguelike expirience for me but im guessing you got it covered already (havent wached whole vid ive just got baited by tumbnail wached a bit and wanted to preach my love for things i like :)
Thanks for the recommendations! Even though Outer Wilds isn’t a Roguelike, it is indeed a masterpiece and I have definitely played through it all including DLC. Curse of the Dead God was rated on the previous video. As for the others, they’ve been added to my wishlist ;)
@@Enuther Fair enough. I'm planning on getting it myself soon, will be my first deckbuilder aside from Lost in Random (and that's a strange one), so i think that i'd be more lenient about the rough edges and simplicity. Here's to wishing the devs a lot of good stuff and that they can make ZZ as good as it can be.
I think it's a wonderful game, maybe not the best roguelite but definitely an amazing game, I love how it mixes its fighting game roots with the cyberpunk aesthetic and roguelite stuff.
Second comment, I really do not vibe with many of the ratings since I think that a game that is for everyone is generally a bad game since it appeals to no one. Many games are put below or above others not because they are "worse designed" but because they are just "harder to get into" which is completely fine and actually good. This toxic relation that the best games are the ones that are the easiest to get into is... weird. Yes, obv games should try to explain their mechanics as best as possible, but there is a difference between: "a game lets you discover and learn on your own and it just requires more time because it wasn't made for a casual audience" and "the game is poorly designed with mechanics that do not make sense". With other issues like calling Ravenswatch a "roguelike diablo" or not mentioning that you can get max 7 spells in spellrogue and that you can sell and get more spells if you want to, I can't really say that you are talking about the design factor of these games. The fact that this video was clearly recorded at least 3 weeks ago (as you mention your deckbuilding roguelike video which released 3 weeks ago here not being made yet) and some of the games already fixing the issues you are talking about here, like death must die or spellrogue, I am just quite disappointed? I do not know why someone in good faith would post a video like this and not edit in the fact that the games have improved. Yes, you put text that you have to pause to read that flashes by that is "updated" but I just don't understand why you couldn't rerecord the sections if your mind has changed. Also, the tier-list seems to be more about what you have enjoyed, and many games you put below the good ranking is not because they were badly designed, but because you expected a different game. Maybe because of the fact that I just have been playing roguelikes pre-Hades and pre-VS (so before everything became a fucking roguelite grindfest that just boosted ur stats so that you could beat the game), but all of your complaints to many of the games are just things that I expect roguelikes to do and things I love about roguelikes. Difficulty, high skill gap, skill as progression, etc. I wouldn't be so analytical against a video like this but this is supposed to talk about design issues of games and not opinions, I just feel like many of these games' issues are just listed, and then we go to the next game. Which is fine, but not with the title you gave to this series. Many of the solutions that you propose are just things that would take away the core of the game and would not fix the game or are just: "add roguelite elements".
I appreciate your detailed comments! While I wish I had time to answer all your points, overall I could see myself agreeing on some of them and I find it important to view different video game elements in different ways. From what I have read, I believe the Star of Providence is catered much more to experienced players then most games. Using bombs more often, scrapping weapons more often, ways to get more health… these seem like very similar arguments I’ve heard when talking about a game such as Enter the Gungeon. I am very comfortable playing Enter the Gungeon and am able to keep my ammo, blanks, and health much more than most players thanks to all the knowledge I accumulated throughout the years. But watching a new player try out the game, health felt much more limited, they didn’t know when to use blanks and felt they were too rare (not even mentioning the fact that using them in combat means you loose the potential to use them for secret rooms, similarly to SoP) and they would loose ammo at a much faster pace, making it feel as if the game didn’t provide enough weapons to them. I find it interesting how my issues I have with SoP reflect similar issues I’ve heard of people complaining about Enter the Gungeon. The only difference here to me is that EtG was slower paced which made learning these points a bit easier and in my personal opinion, less punishing (at the cost of needing to spend more time overall learning the game). Star of Providence is still a game that I could definitely see myself trying again especially since I do miss a challenge. I wish I had more time to put into all of these games and I know many people wish I had 20+ hours put into all of these games. But even if I would probably enjoy more games on this list after putting in many more hours, I find it is important for games to be somewhat enjoyable from the beginning. This doesn’t mean they need to be easy, but that pushing forward is rewarding or that there is a reason to try again over and over again. On my third run in SoP, I had gotten to the fourth floor. Even though I was making progress, the fact that I had gotten to what felt quite far but then died so abruptly made starting over worse then a game where I would die earlier because I felt like I was progressing fast but without learning fast enough WITH the progression. That being said, you’ve definitely made me want to give SoP more chance. I do really like the overall premise and the sense of adventure is very unique. Even if I do find it more much punishing to new players then most games, I will keep on playing it! As for my style of rating, I’m sorry if you do not agree with my format or the way I like to talk about games. I do want to make sure people understand that these are still opinions but it is true that I do enjoy explaining my views on the designs of games I play. In a time and world where reviews can sound plagiarized and have low effort, I want to share my experience as someone who’s works in the industry and plays games for a living, I want to try to talk about more then just my overall enjoyment of a game. I may not always be right but I do want to make sure I give a unique view on games whether people agree or not. As for my not being able to update my notes on many of the games, I wish I could be faster especially with how fast indie games release new updates. I tried to update my views on the games I felt updates were meaningful and worth mentioning in this small amount of time. I probably should of noted the time of recording this tier list, something to keep in mind for next time. Even if I tend to have strong feelings on many of these games, I always try to make sure I talk about them with words such as "in my opinion" and "I believe" as I understand that this is just my opinion and that, whatever I say and however I say, people will disagree and will potentially be annoyed with my views. The joys of having specific views on the internet ^^ All and all, these kinds of comments are ones I find very interesting and allow great conversations and learning experiences to everyone so thank you for your input!
@@PepperHeadGaming Thanks for the comment! I understand that giving more detailed analysis is like impossible especially with these types of video (this vid is alr like 2 hours long and from what I see it is a two parter). As with some of the games you mentioned, I just had a different expectation, probably due to the fact that the title says designed instead of best, I just expected something else. With SoP, it is one of my fav rogues and the one that got me into bullet hells more. I hated Gungeon due to the slowness and that is why I love SoP. The game is difficult, and I am like very bad at bullet hells in general, but in a couple of runs I got to unlock the other characters and more content. The game will still get more content, so do not feel any rush into it, as there will be a major update with more weapons from what I have seen, and a DLC is even planned. I also see SoP a lot less punishing due to the quickness of runs. A Gungeon run - for me - only becomes fun on f4/f5, were a SoP run instantly tests me, another thing of preference. Personally, I care about the new player experience a lot, but due to the trend of many newer roguelikes being review bombed for being too hard (Wildfrost here is the best example, though Revita had it too for some reason), I am vehemently against difficulty of a game being that much of a major factor to how good a game/how easy it is to get into the game. I will agree that SoP can be difficult to get into for many, and it isn't a game for everyone, yet - again - due to the title and my lack of familiarity with the channel - I didn't get the memo. Last thing! Sorry if I was too mean with my response, and if it was too clunky. I was writing the comments while listening to the video. I hope you have a great day/week/month/year and - once more - sorry for my lack of profressionality in my previous two comments.
Glad to hear that! You’ve definitely made me want to check out the game more and upon rewatching my review, I agree I could of sounded a bit more optimistic compared to other reviews. And I agree that the new player experience is a complicated topic when looking at Indie games such as Roguelikes/lites. It’s a conversation for sure, one that I really enjoy discussing with many people. No need to apologize, I enjoy reading different perspectives, that’s a critical part of how I get to learn more and more in this industry. Thanks again for putting all this time and effort in something you care a lot about. I’ll have to get back to you once I’ve properly played SoP ;)
My bro, ask google to prnounce words for you during script writing. You totally mispronounced barony. Bare-ron-ee. Emphasis on first syllable, not middle syllable.
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Thanks for watching! I am planning on making new tier list every few months as I play through more and more Roguelikes so make sure to subscribe if you enjoy this kind of content! 🌶
Please try out "night of the full moon", you won't regret it. 🙏
@@warriorelijah639 you missed a couple (for example some I've played lately: Neuro Voider, Little Noah, Mortal Sin), but thank you so much, a lot of incredible titles I need to try asap, I dreamed of a game like Spirit Fall for a long time and cannot wait to play it!
Try the league of legends vampire survivors clone (serious)
I would love to hear your thoughts on Against the Storm (2023). This game is a roguelite citybuilder that plays like a legacy board game! 160hrs in and I am still coming back.
While I can go on about this game for ages, I am going to paraphrase the official announcement trailer, ‘Sometimes, oh sometimes it just clicks, everything falls into place . . . but that rarely happens. Not as long as the forest has it say’
@@HiddenArch87 did the fix the deleted saves shit it had a while back? Got it on gamepass and played for 12 hrs straight only to have my saves deleted the next day instant uninstall
Dude, you’re a master at compiling, editing, and presenting these tier lists. I’ve been playing roguelikes since that AD&D game on Intellivision, which dropped in the early 80s, and thoroughly enjoy your commentary on the genre as it continues to evolve. I appreciate your hard, tenacious work!
Probably the best ranker I've seen for rogue-likes. When I saw that there was a part 2 I instantly told all my friends. So keen to watch it :D
except roboquest is S tier
@@kroooassant9899 hmm idk about that, it can be super fun but it's not particularly outstanding and it's worse than every single game he put on S tier. The run-to-run loop isn't even as interesting as, say, Gunfire Reborn
star of providence at c tier is a crime, that shit might rival gungeon
I think I was the random guy recommending Alina of the Arena! Glad you took a look
Thanks for sharing it with me! Glad I tried it ;)
As someone who also loves The Void Rains Upon Her Heart as much as you seem to, I implore you to keep playing Star of Providence!
I do agree, TVRUHH does ease you in more, but it also has a different progression. Once you become more familiar with the game and the size of the screen, it becomes very intuitive! Movement feels very precise, and once you adjust to the fact that your dodge generally isn’t invincible, you’ll start improving in no time.
The game is more focused on the action and self-improvement more than the meta progression, and yet there are plenty of secrets and a big update on the horizon!
Meet the gsme where it’s at-a true SHMUP bullet-hell-and you’ll have a good time.
After seeing a few comments on the game already, I’ll definitely go back to try it again! I wasn’t a fan of its approach to new players but even though I find early impressions in some instances as important as late impressions, I do enjoy a challenge so I’ll try to complete game and may rerate it in a future tier list. Thank you for letting me know! ;)
Wow - you've hit almost every Rogue like/lite I can think of in these videos, with actual commentary. The Flame in the Flood is one you might not have played - traveling down a river choosing stops along the way. Absolutely killer soundtrack.
I love how you explain each roguelike in this list, your descriptions are so good at summarizing the key points of each game on the list. Found a new game to obsess over thanks to you! (Atomicrops, holy crap this game is amazing)
Yes! I was just running out of tierlists, after watching yours twice. Good timing
Dude, massive thanks for such a massive compilation. I really like your tier lists with detailed and nuanced opinions on each project.
Once again, thank you for the enormous effort that went into this list. I was sooo happy seeing that there is a part 2. Will be waiting impaitiently for the third installment. My steam and playstation wishlists grow thanks to your lists 😄
Please check out The Land Beneath Us! It’s got some design elements I REALLY dig that surprised me quite a bit. Without spoiling too much there are additional mechanics (which are quite substantial) you unlock after progressing a bit but it’s honestly not too difficult to do. It’s the kind of hidden gem where you know if they continued to support it or put out a sequel it could be something really special.
If you don't mind, a few suggestions for part 3:
- Endless Dungeon (tower defense/action)
-Deliverance&Reign (deckbuilder with 2 POVs, basically 2 games in 1)
- Monster Slayers (deckbuilder)
-Bit Dungeon + (action)
-In Celebration of Violence (it's a top down souslike... I won't shut up about this game bc it's one of my favorites)
Thank you again man, I'm a huge fan of yours
I picked up Void Rains Upon Her Heart thanks in no small part due to your review of it. I’m still hoping for an in-depth, separate video of the game, too!
I’m surprised cobalt core wasn’t on your list! You should play that next
I did, it’ll be on the next Tier List ;)
Bro, keep up your good youtube work. I love you videos very much. I've already bought a lot of games based on your recommendation, great.
YES, I’ve been patiently (at least trying to lol) waiting for this for so long, not only does it introduce me to new roguelikes but to see how similar or different a professional feels about the ones I’ve played myself thank you so much. Also if you haven’t played or heard of the game, I highly suggest Picayune dreams. Fantastic game that honestly needs some more attention
Love to see Astrea so high on your list, since its a Brazilian game with a really small team of developers. Glad to see it getting some love!
i've played double the amount of time in Astrea than Slay the Spire .
I like when a build works well, and you take risk , one of my favorite Deckbuilder.
Do have three recommendations for really well made decently unique roguelikes, all very highly rated, but not much publicity, and all that I personally love:
Brutal Orchestra - A party management turn based roguelike with very unique combat mechanics. It's similar to Roboquest in that the story is core, alongside some very enjoyable gameplay, and multiple things to discover and unlock along the way with new characters and quest do obtain between runs. Thematically grim with interesting visuals.
Dome Keeper - A combination of digging/resource hunting and defending. There's a bunch of different gadgets that change up how you mine, defend and transport resources in each run, each with their own upgrade trees, as well as diffrent core starting aspects such as the dome you defend with and the core gadget that change up how you tackle each run. It's not incredibly in-depth with variety, but theres still a good chunk of content and it's very enjoyable to play.
Slice & Dice - A dice-based roguelike party management game. You have a party of 5 units, each with their own dice of effects, that you can 'evolve' into different more powerful units, alongside collecting items that effect your units and their dice. Turn based combat that's rather easy to digest every turn, but there's just a ton of content to unlock, a lot of replayability with multiple different game modes, and it's even on mobile! It's incredibly affordable, and an insanely fun game to just pick up and play whenever on your phone, though it's also on pc as well, does just feel smoother to play on mobile.
I respect your tierlists of these games, and personally have learned of some new ones I definitely plan to try, so I hope you try these games for yourself. They're definitely more niche games (especially Brutal Orchestra and Slice & Dice) that could use more attention
Death must die's latest update added skill trees for each character and if you manage to get all the skill points it makes characters feel different. I started playing just before this update and felt the same way as you described.
True - I have played about 150 hours before the Act 2 patch and another about 50 post the Act 2 patch. The game has changed quite a lot - It feels refreshed and more interesting.
If one has played it before the current patch has changed a lot for the better
Death road to Canada is the only roguelike i can think of that wasn't in either of these videos. so that's a new one you could try for the next ranking video.
Love playing that game on my phone
The Flame in the Flood is another one. Great soundtrack.
hey Tiny Rogues is still in early access, there is still 3 big update/expansion planned before release.
Oh man you’re right! This really shows how great the developers have been with their updates. I guess I’ll have to include it in ANOTHER tier list once it finally comes out ;)
Awesome video and amazing tier list
Also 17:58 “Look Gary there I am!”
As someone who only got into roguelikes a couple of years ago, I highly recommend trying more Tales of Maj'Eyal
For me, it's the perfect roguelike without the tedium of traditional roguelikes.
Its worth mentioning that on Wildfrost's next update is adding new comoanions and a lot of exta variety!
It's an awesome video, I share many of your POV :). You should take a look at Lonestar : not very difficult to get into, FTL vibes (only aesthetically), simple yet not simplisitic.
Dicefolk is also very nice, however easy it may be ! You pick a team of 3 monsters, you play your dice and those of the enemy : if you are used to these kind of games, you will undoubtedly like it !
Huge recommendation for Nightmare Reaper. I’ve sunk an embarrassing amount of time into it lol. It’s a boomer shooter roguelite with a ton of weapons and really satisfying gameplay. It is a REALLY lengthy game though. Also would be interested to hear your thoughts on Doomsday Hunters; it has a baffling amount of content. Another big recommendation is Against the Storm, which is a city-building roguelike. Every run feels very unique, the art is great, and there’s a really good amount of content
ember knights is actually getting a dlc soon!! id also recomend madshot (there are two), deadlink, ship of fools, wallworld, and overdungeon!!
If you liked Astrea you MUST play Slice & Dice if you haven't already. Genuinely one of the best Roguelikes I've played.
in Dicey Dungeons, I could usually mix around my equipment/items so that every number on the die would be useful for a different equipment. There are some equipments that really want low numbers, some that want high, some that just want odd, etc.
With the inherent complications Dice building Roguelikes have, Dicey Dungeons does a pretty decent job with making every roll have potential uses. Alas for me, I feel like the core mechanics don’t utilize them as well as a game such as Astrea and really do require specific items and equipments. I just felt like overall, the RNG of rolls was much more impactful, whether I did or did not have a good build. But once again, I do think the game is still very strategic even with this RNG and I’m sure if I put many hours into it I’d be able to get around it more easily, but most games will naturally tend to get more consistent if players put in many hours into them, especially for ones that are well designed, Dicey Dungeons included.
A few roguelikes that I've really enjoyed but don't think you've gone over are Steredenn, Neon Sundown, Cobalt Core, and Spirit Hunters. There's more I remembered while I was checking my Steam library, but these were on the top of my mind after watching the video
I really disagree with ravenswatch. I actually like that you cannot animation cancel and that dash has the cooldown that it has. It makes you learn what enemies actually do rather than just spamming dash. It really feels satisfying when you know when to dash, when to use defensive skill, and when your opening for dealing damage is. I wouldn't call the gameplay clunky, to me the gameplay feels slow and tactical on purpose. If you set your expectations that the pacing will be akin to something like death must die, then you will be easily disappointed. I don't think the developers will ever "fix" the dash cooldown, it feels purposeful.
I was also a bit puzzled when you said it's just like diablo with rougelike elements. To me, this feels nothing like diablo where you slay thousands of enemies and usually spam the same ability over and over. Here, you use many abilities, they have long cooldown, and you have to strategically pick which enemies / camps / events to fight and which to skip and when.
Having said all of this, I don't want to be some negative nancy :D so I'll just add that I've really enjoyed the video. Your hard work really shows here and I appreciate it.
Yeah I have realized, despite claiming to play all these games for extensive hours and being an "expert" in roguelikes and roguelites, his takes are Abit odd and don't make sense and there is tons of examples for it from part 1 and part 2, I just watched his ranking videos to know the games, but his options on them should not be you decision maker.
I love Wildfrost because the builds can get insane! (I.e. having a card with 123 attack), and I do like that you can plan your starting leader to counter the boss that you have to beat. But what I find to be very unsatisfying is that you're locked into a build from the start, so you might find three loot options that actively worsen your build and you just have to give them up and make no progress. And this especially sucks when it happens throughout your entire run, stopping your very promising build from ever getting legs
Another Pepper tierlist? I'm such a lucky gal.
I assumed Barony was extremely simplistic. I'll check it out now. I love these sorts of games.
i finished watching ur previous tier list yesterday 😭
your tripping on star of providence my guy
your favorite game is back my dude, wizard of legends 2, i'm curious to see what you think about it since it's is a top down 3D instead of pixel art
Gotta respectfully disagree with ravenswatch, it is honestly so fun learning the different combinations of the heroes abilities, also the dash doesnt need to be spammy like hades 1, all the characters have a nice feel and dont feel the same
He really don't know what he is talking about in a lot of these games lol
really interested in what you think of rabbit and steel. personally been really enjoying that one, although the single player can be a little eh.
also very much like the free flowing style of these videos compared to the shorter, scripted videos.
was interesting hearing your perspective on blazblue which doesnt really compare it to the fighting games
My man ! Can’t wait too lose 3 more hours of my day
I don’t know how I found you but I’m glad I did. Thank you for the amazing content, I’m adding a bunch of games to my wishlist. A small request would be a link to the tierlists you make for the videos. It would make it a bit easier for me to add all these amazing recommendations. Definitely earned your like and subscribe from me already, thank you 🙏
I think what would have been cool is to absorb the old tier list first, and then added these to it. This only creates more questions about how the A and up games compare to the older rated ones. Like would the S-tiers even be S if they were on the other tier list with some of the all time GOATs. Etc.
Id push Spellrogue up a tier or 2 because its actively in development and there is a lot of depth to it. Like you said, there are times where low numbers profit and high numbers profit, but things like shards making you focus on what you really want to upgrade, and game-changing relics are common, and help spice up every run.
There are indeed some customizable options through the runs, I just wish there were a few more! I do understand that the game is in its early stages of life which is why I’m always happy to try these games again once they get bigger updates. As long as it is on steam and purchasable, I’ll be reviewing them in their current stage. I’ll look forward to seeing the new additions to the game hopefully soon enough ;)
Star of provicende needs more love! Long life dead estate Too.
I love these videos, keep it up!
Thanks for your videos,i started playing revita and oh boy this is immersive and various game,but i feel kinda crappy that you missed "slice and dice" game,its really has interesting concept and challenging gameplay,btw keep going,you have very interesting videos im gonna sub.
P.S hope you get popular)
3 HOURS WITH IN-DEPTH ANALYSIS FOR EACH GAME??? WE ARE EATING GOOD
Another comment I must make since I love rewatching this video, I’m surprised you didn’t take another look at astral ascent considering the 1.0 released and several updates since then. Must say it is purely fantastic myself. Perhaps if there’s a ranking rogue likes THREE lol
Again, great tier list. Thank you
Still no Griftlands ! It's not new but you should check it, it's a very unique deckbuilding roguelike. big fan of it
Definitely going to have to rate Griftlands for the next Tier list, just didn’t get to it yet. Very excited to finally try it out though!
Almost three hours! Cancel all my meeting, I'm doing this now.
My favorite mobile rogue deck building game is night of the full moon. I believe it's on steam. If you what to play a wonderful game with great characters, boss, cards, spell and more.
Ooh, I forgot there is a lot more such as more bosses, puzzle, secret lores, many different game modes and a super final boss. If you want to know more I the guy
Holy fuck another 3 hours list LETS GOOO
Have you try demon slayer raksasi, overrogue and night of the full moon. If you haven't I recommend it to you.
love your videos!!
Disey Dungeons is one of my favorite games of all time. I don’t think the random nature of the dice is a real problem, since the entire game is based around taking chances and crossing your fingers. I think not knowing if you’re gonna die next turn leads to interresting strategic gameplay, where you need to decide if you wanna try your best to end the fight, or pray you don’t die.
Also every character has an ability that charges when they take enough damage, and I think that’s a good counter to the whole enemy randomness argument, since all of the characters’ abilities could pretty much win you a fight instantly. (Jester especially)
If you play your cards right (pun intended), and have the game knowledge needed, it’s pretty easy to completely rig a run. Like when I was doing a hard mode run as the thief and got a build where no matter what I rolled I could gain like 5 extra dice, turn them all into 3s and do 6 damage pr dice. Stuff like that.
What I’m trying to say is, you should reconsider the Dicey Dungeons placement :))
Also the soundtrack is absoloutely amazing, idk how you couldn’t comment on the soundtrack fkfkebejgi
You make a fair point. I’m willing to bet my rating could change if I were to play many more hours, which I unfortunately didn’t have the time to do so. I do indeed see the crazy potential of the game which is why I still believe this game is amazing for anyone that has hundreds of hours to put into. I might personally be less into the overall dice gameplay then many in general but I’ll continue giving it a try for sure!
And yes, absolute banger soundtrack, that should have been mentioned ;)
Ayyy part 2 lets go
Man i finished the other video not too long ago, and now theres another? goddamn.
Retuurnal?
Incredible game, absoolutely worth at least one try!
Great video, can you review Summum Aeternum?
Below the Stone has not been updated since mid-May. It may be abandoned, or it could just be a big update coming.
Honestly the Star of Providence rating, as much as I understand that you didn't like the game, it feels like more of a skill issue and preference issue than an actual design issue. You expected something, didn't get what you expect and got something more unique that is well designed with the design choices it takes, and complained about it. Let's talk about all the complaints.
"I play a lot of bullet hells." --> I know skills from one type of game should go to another, but there is a reason these are challenging and ruthless games that require you to learn new patterns of enemies. That is the DNA of the genre, and it is why this genre is hard in general.
Small screen --> the entire feel of the game and the artstyle is based on this more arcadey feeling. Everything is also kinda balanced around the small space and quite quick movement speed. Again, this would be an issue if it wouldn't be such a vital part of the game's DNA.
"If you don't know enemy movesets, you will take damage." --> This is the point of bullet hells. Understanding and knowing the patterns and how to adapt to them. You are supposed to die, go back into the dungeon, and learn what enemies/bosses do. The fact that you have to do that makes me think it is well designed.
"Almost feels like try and error," --> Every roguelike is trial and error, since the progress comes from skill progression and not metaprogress.
"You don't have time to react." --> You do, it is just more difficult. I understand the skill jump is higher than most modern roguelikes that have an ascension system that makes the game difficult and the base game is easy, but there is time to react, there is time to learn, and that is the point of the game and the genre. Both bullet hells and roguelikes.
"Feels frustrating and unfair" --> All bosses and enemies from what I remember have one attack with a visual, or many visuals to signify attacks. It feels frustrating probably because you expected to do better as a bullet hell player - which is understandable, especially with your ranking of VRUHH - but the game is not unfair.
"Dash doesn't make you invulnerable" --> I am sorry, again, I have to disagree. Dash giving you i-frames is such a boring ass move from bullet hells and makes more bullet hells a "when to dash" spamfest instead of an actual bullet hell. The lack of i-frames forces you to learn and understand the enemies and rooms, instead of clicking dash randomly and praying you will not get hit. It still gives you the speed and also changes your position dramatically, it is basically like a jump/sprint button almost. Most bullet hells do not have the dash i-frame mechanic, mostly EtG and games going from EtG (which are like very easy compared to VRUHH or Star of Providence) have this mechanic.
"Too punishing," --> Again, imo, it is more of a issue of modern roguelikes being easy with ascension systems and being punishing in later stages instead of - as it was in the past - the game being punishing from the get-go. I am using this "past" argument since the game is originally from 2017.
"Health is too hard to come by" --> Shops? Max HP upgrades? Maybe scrapping weapons that gives you health? There are simple ways to gain health back, the game just lets you discover that with time and with your skill/knowledge of the game growing.
Some tips? Use bombs. Bombs are basically just clear the screen from bullets and they help a lot at the beginning. You can practice bosses in the mirror that is quite helpful. And just play the game more in general.
To conclude, Star of Providence is not a badly designed game. Its skill ceiling is just of the normal roguelike in the past instead of the 2024 roguelikes. I am writing this not because I want to be like: "You had a skill issue and that is why low rating" but more of: "The game is hard, but it is not badly designed."
Awesome tier list! Have you checked out Slice and Dice? Ive been hooked on it recently!
Not yet, guess I’ll have to cover it next time ;)
Thanks for the video it's amazing
You’re so underrated man
If you try hades 2, hope u enjoy it :-) curious to see where you rank it and whether you like it more than the 1st or not
Looking good Pepper, looking good.
You need to play a game called "Isle of Arrows"
It's pretty much a better version of the Rogue Tower game that you talked about in the first video, and it's kind of exactly the game you were describing when you were talking about what you wanted out of Rogue Tower.
Also, I recommend checking out a game called Yamafuda. It takes the basic structure of a deckbuilding roguelike and turns it into something that feels almost like a completely different kind of game.
It starts off very easy, since it's more focused on the concept of being a cute & relaxing game about hiking, but you can eventually work your way up to a difficulty comparable to other deckbuilding roguelikes.
Also, it's been out for a few years, and its sequel is about to release, this year. (The first game is called 2nd Station, because it's a more fleshed-out version of a much-less-fleshed out mobile game, that's hard to find access to, but the new sequel is called Summit.)
Also also, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on another deckbuilding roguelike called Heat Death.
It's kinda scuffed in some ways related to balance, but it also has some very interesting mechanics.
In that same vein, another game, that made me feel a similar vibe to Heat Death, and with even-more-interesting deckbuilder mechanics, is called... some name that I completely forgot, but I remember that Olexa played it, and I watched the video sometime during 2022-2023.
It had a "cybertron" aesthetic to it, and it had this very unique Roguelike Deckbuilder system, "reinventing the roguelike deckbuilder genre"
I know you didn5t mention nuclear throne here, but if you loop, it can go on forever with even more secrets like boss3s, floors, ultra mutations, and new enemies. So in your last video B tier was very undeserved
I actually do bring up Nuclear Throne in this video again! I rerated it as an A tier ;)
One game that i really like that is technically a rougelike is rounds if you donthis again then add it to the list
Wildfrost is hard and too rng based, there is runs you can literally tell you gonna win straight from the first boss and there is runs that you can also tell is a loss no matter what you do, so either restart or keep going for another fight and die anyways, wish it wasn't random in getting the cards but just in drawing them, also the little trinkets or perks or whatever they are called most of them are useless, there is few that are busted specially when stacked up but again getting them is also random, overall the game is fun for the first win and few hours but then you realize the issues and just drop out.
Yaaa i clicked becouse alina was on tubnail - ryly nobody knows that game - to me its more like it was inspired by the game on the phone named Gladiator (or something like that)
Also 1 game i think you might not played called shogun showdown - its kinda creazy how simple it is - while requiring strategising and thinking aheard
Also "Sunless Sea" can be clasified as roguelite but its like 70% story focused and its EPIC its on my top 10 games propably
Last one - Outer Wilds - my 1# of all games
- it is knowledge based game but if i strech my imagination i can say its a roguelike becouse i want everybody to expirience it - just one rule for it - ANY spoiler about it ruins the game
Lastly Curse of the dead gods peak clasic roguelike expirience for me but im guessing you got it covered already (havent wached whole vid ive just got baited by tumbnail wached a bit and wanted to preach my love for things i like :)
Thanks for the recommendations! Even though Outer Wilds isn’t a Roguelike, it is indeed a masterpiece and I have definitely played through it all including DLC. Curse of the Dead God was rated on the previous video. As for the others, they’ve been added to my wishlist ;)
@@PepperHeadGaming what a chad! gl and have fun with what youre doing ^__^
Surprised no slice and dice, no bio prototype. Give them a try, they're great
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES
Slice and Dice needs some more representation❤
Now there's Zet Zillions too.
It's fairly simplistic and still rough around the edges, I wouldn't recommend it to him at the time (give it another 3 months in the oven) !
@@Enuther Fair enough. I'm planning on getting it myself soon, will be my first deckbuilder aside from Lost in Random (and that's a strange one), so i think that i'd be more lenient about the rough edges and simplicity.
Here's to wishing the devs a lot of good stuff and that they can make ZZ as good as it can be.
Oh hi Mark!
man you know your shit. Nice vid.
Blazblue entropy effect is definitively a game
I think it's a wonderful game, maybe not the best roguelite but definitely an amazing game, I love how it mixes its fighting game roots with the cyberpunk aesthetic and roguelite stuff.
what about magicraft??
I prefer Halls of Torment over Death Muse Die.
Isometric angle constantly called topdown 😂😂😂
Haha yep, I’m terrible with perspective naming conventions 😅
No Slice & Dice
Where is Hades 2????
Smh no chrono ark
Alina felt like half a game when i played it shit was mids
Returnal?
Coming up in the next tier list ;)
GoNNER? (And goNNER 2)
Second comment, I really do not vibe with many of the ratings since I think that a game that is for everyone is generally a bad game since it appeals to no one. Many games are put below or above others not because they are "worse designed" but because they are just "harder to get into" which is completely fine and actually good. This toxic relation that the best games are the ones that are the easiest to get into is... weird. Yes, obv games should try to explain their mechanics as best as possible, but there is a difference between: "a game lets you discover and learn on your own and it just requires more time because it wasn't made for a casual audience" and "the game is poorly designed with mechanics that do not make sense".
With other issues like calling Ravenswatch a "roguelike diablo" or not mentioning that you can get max 7 spells in spellrogue and that you can sell and get more spells if you want to, I can't really say that you are talking about the design factor of these games. The fact that this video was clearly recorded at least 3 weeks ago (as you mention your deckbuilding roguelike video which released 3 weeks ago here not being made yet) and some of the games already fixing the issues you are talking about here, like death must die or spellrogue, I am just quite disappointed? I do not know why someone in good faith would post a video like this and not edit in the fact that the games have improved. Yes, you put text that you have to pause to read that flashes by that is "updated" but I just don't understand why you couldn't rerecord the sections if your mind has changed.
Also, the tier-list seems to be more about what you have enjoyed, and many games you put below the good ranking is not because they were badly designed, but because you expected a different game.
Maybe because of the fact that I just have been playing roguelikes pre-Hades and pre-VS (so before everything became a fucking roguelite grindfest that just boosted ur stats so that you could beat the game), but all of your complaints to many of the games are just things that I expect roguelikes to do and things I love about roguelikes. Difficulty, high skill gap, skill as progression, etc.
I wouldn't be so analytical against a video like this but this is supposed to talk about design issues of games and not opinions, I just feel like many of these games' issues are just listed, and then we go to the next game. Which is fine, but not with the title you gave to this series. Many of the solutions that you propose are just things that would take away the core of the game and would not fix the game or are just: "add roguelite elements".
I appreciate your detailed comments! While I wish I had time to answer all your points, overall I could see myself agreeing on some of them and I find it important to view different video game elements in different ways.
From what I have read, I believe the Star of Providence is catered much more to experienced players then most games. Using bombs more often, scrapping weapons more often, ways to get more health… these seem like very similar arguments I’ve heard when talking about a game such as Enter the Gungeon. I am very comfortable playing Enter the Gungeon and am able to keep my ammo, blanks, and health much more than most players thanks to all the knowledge I accumulated throughout the years. But watching a new player try out the game, health felt much more limited, they didn’t know when to use blanks and felt they were too rare (not even mentioning the fact that using them in combat means you loose the potential to use them for secret rooms, similarly to SoP) and they would loose ammo at a much faster pace, making it feel as if the game didn’t provide enough weapons to them. I find it interesting how my issues I have with SoP reflect similar issues I’ve heard of people complaining about Enter the Gungeon. The only difference here to me is that EtG was slower paced which made learning these points a bit easier and in my personal opinion, less punishing (at the cost of needing to spend more time overall learning the game).
Star of Providence is still a game that I could definitely see myself trying again especially since I do miss a challenge. I wish I had more time to put into all of these games and I know many people wish I had 20+ hours put into all of these games. But even if I would probably enjoy more games on this list after putting in many more hours, I find it is important for games to be somewhat enjoyable from the beginning. This doesn’t mean they need to be easy, but that pushing forward is rewarding or that there is a reason to try again over and over again. On my third run in SoP, I had gotten to the fourth floor. Even though I was making progress, the fact that I had gotten to what felt quite far but then died so abruptly made starting over worse then a game where I would die earlier because I felt like I was progressing fast but without learning fast enough WITH the progression.
That being said, you’ve definitely made me want to give SoP more chance. I do really like the overall premise and the sense of adventure is very unique. Even if I do find it more much punishing to new players then most games, I will keep on playing it!
As for my style of rating, I’m sorry if you do not agree with my format or the way I like to talk about games. I do want to make sure people understand that these are still opinions but it is true that I do enjoy explaining my views on the designs of games I play. In a time and world where reviews can sound plagiarized and have low effort, I want to share my experience as someone who’s works in the industry and plays games for a living, I want to try to talk about more then just my overall enjoyment of a game. I may not always be right but I do want to make sure I give a unique view on games whether people agree or not.
As for my not being able to update my notes on many of the games, I wish I could be faster especially with how fast indie games release new updates. I tried to update my views on the games I felt updates were meaningful and worth mentioning in this small amount of time. I probably should of noted the time of recording this tier list, something to keep in mind for next time.
Even if I tend to have strong feelings on many of these games, I always try to make sure I talk about them with words such as "in my opinion" and "I believe" as I understand that this is just my opinion and that, whatever I say and however I say, people will disagree and will potentially be annoyed with my views. The joys of having specific views on the internet ^^
All and all, these kinds of comments are ones I find very interesting and allow great conversations and learning experiences to everyone so thank you for your input!
@@PepperHeadGaming Thanks for the comment! I understand that giving more detailed analysis is like impossible especially with these types of video (this vid is alr like 2 hours long and from what I see it is a two parter).
As with some of the games you mentioned, I just had a different expectation, probably due to the fact that the title says designed instead of best, I just expected something else.
With SoP, it is one of my fav rogues and the one that got me into bullet hells more. I hated Gungeon due to the slowness and that is why I love SoP. The game is difficult, and I am like very bad at bullet hells in general, but in a couple of runs I got to unlock the other characters and more content.
The game will still get more content, so do not feel any rush into it, as there will be a major update with more weapons from what I have seen, and a DLC is even planned.
I also see SoP a lot less punishing due to the quickness of runs. A Gungeon run - for me - only becomes fun on f4/f5, were a SoP run instantly tests me, another thing of preference.
Personally, I care about the new player experience a lot, but due to the trend of many newer roguelikes being review bombed for being too hard (Wildfrost here is the best example, though Revita had it too for some reason), I am vehemently against difficulty of a game being that much of a major factor to how good a game/how easy it is to get into the game. I will agree that SoP can be difficult to get into for many, and it isn't a game for everyone, yet - again - due to the title and my lack of familiarity with the channel - I didn't get the memo.
Last thing! Sorry if I was too mean with my response, and if it was too clunky. I was writing the comments while listening to the video. I hope you have a great day/week/month/year and - once more - sorry for my lack of profressionality in my previous two comments.
Glad to hear that! You’ve definitely made me want to check out the game more and upon rewatching my review, I agree I could of sounded a bit more optimistic compared to other reviews. And I agree that the new player experience is a complicated topic when looking at Indie games such as Roguelikes/lites. It’s a conversation for sure, one that I really enjoy discussing with many people.
No need to apologize, I enjoy reading different perspectives, that’s a critical part of how I get to learn more and more in this industry. Thanks again for putting all this time and effort in something you care a lot about. I’ll have to get back to you once I’ve properly played SoP ;)
My bro, ask google to prnounce words for you during script writing. You totally mispronounced barony. Bare-ron-ee. Emphasis on first syllable, not middle syllable.
Not even. It's more like Bah-ron-y. Still with emphasis on the first syllable, but it makes an "ah" sound (like the word "action" or, indeed, "baron")