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Nice to hear Ben's influences. From just the first few hours I felt like "This game is the lovechild of Enter the Gungeon and Hollow Knight, with the visuals of Celeste".

your favorite game is back my dude, wizard of legends 2, i'm curious to see what you think about it since it's is a top down 3D instead of pixel art

Shotgun King was made in a game jam, and was so well received that the developers continued to work on it to release it as a finished and more polished game, so its normal that its not to long.

I wonder if this was made in the same engine as Nuclear Throne... It looks so similar, from the highlighting outline to the way the bullets and drops move... The projectiles (at least some of them) look like they came straight out of Enter the Gungeon...

Or lets make it more simple. Rogue was more like an actual table top rpg. when your character dies you had to create a new one. But you wouldn't know that by yourself.

Your video starts on a significant error. You do not properly define the game Rogue or explain what it was back in 1980. Again. Permanent death yes, but without any gains from your previous run. You do not start from point Zero but with the armor you gathered before. You will NOT have anything. You literally start at zero. Total zero.

Here is the vital wikipedia passage about Rogue: In Rogue, players control a character as they explore several levels of a dungeon seeking the Amulet of Yendor located in the dungeon's lowest level. The player character must fend off an array of monsters that roam the dungeons. Along the way, players can collect treasures that can help them offensively or defensively, such as weapons, armor, potions, scrolls, and other magical items. Rogue is turn-based, taking place on a square grid represented in ASCII or other fixed character set, allowing players to have time to determine the best move to survive. Rogue implements permadeath as a design choice to make each action by the player meaningful-should the player-character lose all their health via combat or other means, that player character is dead. The player must restart with a fresh character as the dead character cannot respawn, or be brought back by reloading from a saved state. Moreover, no game is the same as any previous one, as the dungeon levels, monster encounters, and treasures are procedurally generated for each playthrough. As you can understand now, nothing you think of Rogue-likes has ever made sense nor existed in any way you imagined it. You die in Rogue you start all over with no gains from your previous play. And the dungeon layout changes every time too. Plus in its core it is a role playing game. Now where, if not in the past we did have such games? Such games existed indeed on older consoles and gaming computers. But today I see no such Rogue-likes anymore. You keep some of your progress even when you die 100 times? Not like Rogue. The main game is not an RPG? Not like Rogue.

Answer to the video title: nothing does. There is nothing like Rogue. Rogue was a small and very limited early PC community based RPG or Adventure. More like an adventure of some sort. It was ascii based since graphics cards did not exist at that time the game Rogue was played. And no game you can mention today has anything to do with that. Non of you ever understood the concept behind that simplistic early computer adventure. I know because I was there. Having randoms spilling terms like Rogue-like is irritating and nothing else.

2:01:33 song name?

Rogue Legacy solos

So, are Battle Royales just Multiplayer Roguelikes?

I love the background 🤣🤣🤣

If you try hades 2, hope u enjoy it :-) curious to see where you rank it and whether you like it more than the 1st or not

children of morta is a B tier if solo +1 makes it an A tier for me.

Blazblue entropy effect is definitively a game

Is void bastards also a roguelike /lite game?

You need to play a game called "Isle of Arrows" It's pretty much a better version of the Rogue Tower game that you talked about in the first video, and it's kind of exactly the game you were describing when you were talking about what you wanted out of Rogue Tower.

Love to see Astrea so high on your list, since its a Brazilian game with a really small team of developers. Glad to see it getting some love!

3 hards excelent games on B tier hahahahaha

I prefer Halls of Torment over Death Muse Die.

Has the combat improved over the original? I found Hades 1 combat to be severely lacking - repetitive, shallow, button mashy and just no much skill involved.

Where's blasphemous

On the topic of deckbuilders and mechanical diversity, a game I don’t see on your list (justifiably given it’s not a roguelike at all) is Library of Ruina. It is an entire sci-fi dystopia RPG with so many disparate influences, built on the back of incredibly tight resource management, deck building, and card pools (each character has 9 total, so there’s incredibly little RNG upfront), so much so that the core challenge of boss battles in the game is constructing a deck that can break through a complex web of one-off mechanics. It can be so complicated and intricate that it can fully break away from the roguelike genre entirely and make deck construction alone the core mechanical conceit of the game.

Star of provicende needs more love! Long life dead estate Too.

BARONY MENTIONED

Hades ♥ simpe really :p

It's an awesome video, I share many of your POV :). You should take a look at Lonestar : not very difficult to get into, FTL vibes (only aesthetically), simple yet not simplisitic. Dicefolk is also very nice, however easy it may be ! You pick a team of 3 monsters, you play your dice and those of the enemy : if you are used to these kind of games, you will undoubtedly like it !

FTL is S tier man you are crazy such disrespect I can't believe it.

Holy fuck another 3 hours list LETS GOOO

Wow - you've hit almost every Rogue like/lite I can think of in these videos, with actual commentary. The Flame in the Flood is one you might not have played - traveling down a river choosing stops along the way. Absolutely killer soundtrack.

Man i finished the other video not too long ago, and now theres another? goddamn.

Thanks for your videos,i started playing revita and oh boy this is immersive and various game,but i feel kinda crappy that you missed "slice and dice" game,its really has interesting concept and challenging gameplay,btw keep going,you have very interesting videos im gonna sub. P.S hope you get popular)

Now there's Zet Zillions too.

As someone who also loves The Void Rains Upon Her Heart as much as you seem to, I implore you to keep playing Star of Providence! I do agree, TVRUHH does ease you in more, but it also has a different progression. Once you become more familiar with the game and the size of the screen, it becomes very intuitive! Movement feels very precise, and once you adjust to the fact that your dodge generally isn’t invincible, you’ll start improving in no time. The game is more focused on the action and self-improvement more than the meta progression, and yet there are plenty of secrets and a big update on the horizon! Meet the gsme where it’s at-a true SHMUP bullet-hell-and you’ll have a good time.

your tripping on star of providence my guy

Second comment, I really do not vibe with many of the ratings since I think that a game that is for everyone is generally a bad game since it appeals to no one. Many games are put below or above others not because they are "worse designed" but because they are just "harder to get into" which is completely fine and actually good. This toxic relation that the best games are the ones that are the easiest to get into is... weird. Yes, obv games should try to explain their mechanics as best as possible, but there is a difference between: "a game lets you discover and learn on your own and it just requires more time because it wasn't made for a casual audience" and "the game is poorly designed with mechanics that do not make sense". With other issues like calling Ravenswatch a "roguelike diablo" or not mentioning that you can get max 7 spells in spellrogue and that you can sell and get more spells if you want to, I can't really say that you are talking about the design factor of these games. The fact that this video was clearly recorded at least 3 weeks ago (as you mention your deckbuilding roguelike video which released 3 weeks ago here not being made yet) and some of the games already fixing the issues you are talking about here, like death must die or spellrogue, I am just quite disappointed? I do not know why someone in good faith would post a video like this and not edit in the fact that the games have improved. Yes, you put text that you have to pause to read that flashes by that is "updated" but I just don't understand why you couldn't rerecord the sections if your mind has changed. Also, the tier-list seems to be more about what you have enjoyed, and many games you put below the good ranking is not because they were badly designed, but because you expected a different game. Maybe because of the fact that I just have been playing roguelikes pre-Hades and pre-VS (so before everything became a fucking roguelite grindfest that just boosted ur stats so that you could beat the game), but all of your complaints to many of the games are just things that I expect roguelikes to do and things I love about roguelikes. Difficulty, high skill gap, skill as progression, etc. I wouldn't be so analytical against a video like this but this is supposed to talk about design issues of games and not opinions, I just feel like many of these games' issues are just listed, and then we go to the next game. Which is fine, but not with the title you gave to this series. Many of the solutions that you propose are just things that would take away the core of the game and would not fix the game or are just: "add roguelite elements".

Honestly the Star of Providence rating, as much as I understand that you didn't like the game, it feels like more of a skill issue and preference issue than an actual design issue. You expected something, didn't get what you expect and got something more unique that is well designed with the design choices it takes, and complained about it. Let's talk about all the complaints. "I play a lot of bullet hells." --> I know skills from one type of game should go to another, but there is a reason these are challenging and ruthless games that require you to learn new patterns of enemies. That is the DNA of the genre, and it is why this genre is hard in general. Small screen --> the entire feel of the game and the artstyle is based on this more arcadey feeling. Everything is also kinda balanced around the small space and quite quick movement speed. Again, this would be an issue if it wouldn't be such a vital part of the game's DNA. "If you don't know enemy movesets, you will take damage." --> This is the point of bullet hells. Understanding and knowing the patterns and how to adapt to them. You are supposed to die, go back into the dungeon, and learn what enemies/bosses do. The fact that you have to do that makes me think it is well designed. "Almost feels like try and error," --> Every roguelike is trial and error, since the progress comes from skill progression and not metaprogress. "You don't have time to react." --> You do, it is just more difficult. I understand the skill jump is higher than most modern roguelikes that have an ascension system that makes the game difficult and the base game is easy, but there is time to react, there is time to learn, and that is the point of the game and the genre. Both bullet hells and roguelikes. "Feels frustrating and unfair" --> All bosses and enemies from what I remember have one attack with a visual, or many visuals to signify attacks. It feels frustrating probably because you expected to do better as a bullet hell player - which is understandable, especially with your ranking of VRUHH - but the game is not unfair. "Dash doesn't make you invulnerable" --> I am sorry, again, I have to disagree. Dash giving you i-frames is such a boring ass move from bullet hells and makes more bullet hells a "when to dash" spamfest instead of an actual bullet hell. The lack of i-frames forces you to learn and understand the enemies and rooms, instead of clicking dash randomly and praying you will not get hit. It still gives you the speed and also changes your position dramatically, it is basically like a jump/sprint button almost. Most bullet hells do not have the dash i-frame mechanic, mostly EtG and games going from EtG (which are like very easy compared to VRUHH or Star of Providence) have this mechanic. "Too punishing," --> Again, imo, it is more of a issue of modern roguelikes being easy with ascension systems and being punishing in later stages instead of - as it was in the past - the game being punishing from the get-go. I am using this "past" argument since the game is originally from 2017. "Health is too hard to come by" --> Shops? Max HP upgrades? Maybe scrapping weapons that gives you health? There are simple ways to gain health back, the game just lets you discover that with time and with your skill/knowledge of the game growing. Some tips? Use bombs. Bombs are basically just clear the screen from bullets and they help a lot at the beginning. You can practice bosses in the mirror that is quite helpful. And just play the game more in general. To conclude, Star of Providence is not a badly designed game. Its skill ceiling is just of the normal roguelike in the past instead of the 2024 roguelikes. I am writing this not because I want to be like: "You had a skill issue and that is why low rating" but more of: "The game is hard, but it is not badly designed."

Disey Dungeons is one of my favorite games of all time. I don’t think the random nature of the dice is a real problem, since the entire game is based around taking chances and crossing your fingers. I think not knowing if you’re gonna die next turn leads to interresting strategic gameplay, where you need to decide if you wanna try your best to end the fight, or pray you don’t die. Also every character has an ability that charges when they take enough damage, and I think that’s a good counter to the whole enemy randomness argument, since all of the characters’ abilities could pretty much win you a fight instantly. (Jester especially) If you play your cards right (pun intended), and have the game knowledge needed, it’s pretty easy to completely rig a run. Like when I was doing a hard mode run as the thief and got a build where no matter what I rolled I could gain like 5 extra dice, turn them all into 3s and do 6 damage pr dice. Stuff like that. What I’m trying to say is, you should reconsider the Dicey Dungeons placement :)) Also the soundtrack is absoloutely amazing, idk how you couldn’t comment on the soundtrack fkfkebejgi

I assumed Barony was extremely simplistic. I'll check it out now. I love these sorts of games.

If you liked Astrea you MUST play Slice & Dice if you haven't already. Genuinely one of the best Roguelikes I've played.

respectfully i disagree.

Again, great tier list. Thank you <3

I really loved wildfrost and always thought its lanes and repositioning of units added a very unique “gimmick”, these were almost the most important element to master, upping the strategy aspect by a fair bit. Unfortunately that was also why many players bounced of hard from the 1.0 release - the game was not necessary hard, but very punishing! One small misplay could wreck a run without any change of comeback.

really interested in what you think of rabbit and steel. personally been really enjoying that one, although the single player can be a little eh. also very much like the free flowing style of these videos compared to the shorter, scripted videos. was interesting hearing your perspective on blazblue which doesnt really compare it to the fighting games

I really disagree with ravenswatch. I actually like that you cannot animation cancel and that dash has the cooldown that it has. It makes you learn what enemies actually do rather than just spamming dash. It really feels satisfying when you know when to dash, when to use defensive skill, and when your opening for dealing damage is. I wouldn't call the gameplay clunky, to me the gameplay feels slow and tactical on purpose. If you set your expectations that the pacing will be akin to something like death must die, then you will be easily disappointed. I don't think the developers will ever "fix" the dash cooldown, it feels purposeful. I was also a bit puzzled when you said it's just like diablo with rougelike elements. To me, this feels nothing like diablo where you slay thousands of enemies and usually spam the same ability over and over. Here, you use many abilities, they have long cooldown, and you have to strategically pick which enemies / camps / events to fight and which to skip and when. Having said all of this, I don't want to be some negative nancy :D so I'll just add that I've really enjoyed the video. Your hard work really shows here and I appreciate it.

Dude, massive thanks for such a massive compilation. I really like your tier lists with detailed and nuanced opinions on each project.

If you think Darkest Dungeon is just chaotic, you just haven't played enough to discover the multiple layers of knowledge, when it becomes very satisfying. But yes the learning is brutal. But for me, the graphics and artistic direction, music and so on are so GOOD that it made me keep going at it.

3 HOURS WITH IN-DEPTH ANALYSIS FOR EACH GAME??? WE ARE EATING GOOD

I might aswell mention that you can only fight certain bosses in certain difficulties. Even in mist rain,there are bosses you can fight in that difficulty alone. You saw in quickplay, that bosses only go up to certain levels so they can only be seen in certain difficulties. About the damage types, it actually does matter because you can finish fights faster if you are using damage types a boss is weak against,especially versus bosses it can really matter. Also,you can survive longer if you have good defense against it.

Its worth mentioning that on Wildfrost's next update is adding new comoanions and a lot of exta variety!