400$ / 8 hours a day / 250 days a year / 5 years = 0.04$ per hour, and you need to think about you are saving on Hospital bills too, so it is a win - win
@@NathanHedglin That's actually false. Paying for healthcare increases tax revenue on account of those people not dying, and saves money on costly operations down the line that people instead spend on other areas of the economy. For-profit healthcare system is literally only useful for the people working in healthcare, mostly in the insurance business
4:48 it's just derived from typewriters. Typewriters needed a mechanical arm to go from the key to the hammer. If the keys would have been stacked in perfect columns, the arms would physically collide, or the typewriter would have been very tall. So they shifted each row a bit to make room for the arms. It's totally useless today, but people are used to that layout now.
@@joshuawjulian it was to stop commonly paired letters from jamming. So whilst people often say it was to force you to type more slowly, it was actually to allow you type faster
Another keyboard that's pretty cool is the Dactyl Manuform. You either have to make it yourself or pay a little more for it, but it's a split keyboard that is actually concave so each key is the same distance from your fingers without moving your wrists. It's a fun project to do if you have the equipment and some time.
I am an owner of Moonlander, and it was the first keyboard I learned to touch type. The main reason for that is that traditional keyboards have staggered layout, and it is honestly very illogical for me, every time I tried to learn to touch type on it was a failure. With Moonlander, however, I learned to touch type and in two completely different layouts - Colemak and seif-made Colemak-like layout for my own native language! Though the keyboard was expensive - it was totally worth it - very comfortable typing, powerful programmable macro and the convenience of the configurator on their site.
I really like just how excited or amp you can get in your videos. I’m always learning something and your enthusiasm is contagious. It’s not over the top, but it’s still nice to see genuine passion like this.
Custom keyboards are the thing. Everybody can find or at least create from scratch the keyboard that suits them best. corne is the best for me personally btw 👽
@@iLiokardo I only have my experience, which is to create a keymap which seems logical to you even before trying to use something like corne. As a result I learned mine in less than a week and since then (almost a year) it had very few modifications.
Never considered a split keyboard.. may be great for gaming as well. Something to consider. Thx, you are a wealth of info. EDIT: it is scientific fact RGB keyboards make you 34.2% more productive.
Yes, I love my Moonlander for gaming as I just use the left half for gaming (you can even unplug the right half, but I just put it away) so my mouse sits comfortably in front of my right hand which is just way more comfortable and consumes way less space on the desk 👍
You inspired me to get my own split keyboard, you and Ben Vallack however, I cannot justify the expense seeing is I'm just starting my journey into computers... So I bought two of the cheapest number pads I could find ($10 a piece). I wrote a custom layout for each one and assigned them accordingly, I now have a twenty dollar ortho linear split keyboard. I'm still working out how to get different levels set up so I can have all 100 keys (minus the Caps lock) that a full keyboard has but I at least have the alpha keys and the modifiers, for now.
I was having shoulder pain for months. After a week of using the Moondlander the pain was gone. The transition took a month+, but worth the effort and money.
I've had the moonlander for nearly a year, it is hands down the best keyboard I've ever used. My layout has changed so much since the first one I did. I use home row modifiers so my super, alt, ctrl, and shift are bound to the hold function on the keys in the home row on each side so I don't have to move my hands to press those keys. It has changed the way I use the keyboard. I have pretty bad RSI in my wrists and elbows and using this keyboard with a track ball mouse (the elicom huge) between the keyboard halves has eliminated the pain I had using a standard keyboard and mouse.
Ever since I've discovered your channel I find myself back "daily". I appreciate these extremely well put together in-depth reviews and explanations of technology. Wish I could subscribe more than once lol. Blessings to you!
Absolutely agree with all points! These keyboards make such obvious sense that that makes you wonder what the other guys been thinking all these years. The moon lander forces you into good typing habits, especially for vim. The only downside is you're going to pay significantly more for them. But I love that clicky key moon lander I would like to get one as soon as I can. Peace brother!
Just to clarify that QMK is also the firmware itself, so the firmware is also open source. In the case of the ErgoDox - the hardware is also open source. The Moonlander (as far as I know) is not open source hardware.
I replace the caps lock key with control in my standard layout. As a programmer I almost never use all caps so it makes more sense for me to use the caps a a ctrl which I use all the time.
i work in a lab and split my time between the desk and benchtop. between pipetting a lot and typing up reports, this was a huge game changer! i use the moonlander and can say it helps way more when writing or coding due to the ergonomics. it is quite expensive but well worth it if you type a lot for work/school! my hands dont cramp nearly as much as a trad board. if youre in a similar situation, the split/tented boards are well worth investigating
I feel like the keymapping and stuff flashing directly to the keyboard without requiring an external program is actually really powerful and for example you can just plug it in to a fresh arch linux install and all the stuff you have basically all still works and is exactly the layout you designed. Mine is a customish Workman layout with custom places for all the symbols so would be a pain if i need to use a default keyboard for a while and install external software onto the system to use the keyboard the way i like. huge plus IMO. Also can just plug into any pc and it just works. really cool feature all by itself excluding all the other excellent features. Only real downside is the Oryx trainer requires a chromium browser which i'm not a massive fan of, but that program isn't required by any stretch to use the keyboard, can configure and everything wihtout ever needing that, but it is very helpful while learning a new layout.
Well, you can also flash directly to the board from that browser. Click through the steps, hit a key on some layer that does "reset" and puts it into pairing mode, select it from the dialog and done. No Wally required. (Works for Moonlander on a Mac at any rate)
Nice to see you're a user of split keebs. I was diagnosed with Rheumatoid arthritis and one of my first changes was getting a split keyboard and I haven't looked back since. Edit: Split keyboard and ergo chair = hours without even realizing you're sitting at a desk.
I ended up making my own dactyl manuform board as I'm studying computer science and needed to upgrade my keyboard from the old gaming keyboard I used to use. It's not fancy like these boards but it's very comfortable to use and it cost a lot less to build it myself.
I use the Moonlander too after using a few split custom builts ones. I also use a Dvorak-inspired layout with home row modifiers, with all this I rarely ever move from the home row!
I've used a Ortholinear (preonic) keyboard since summer. I love how easy it is to type after a while first of all, plus the layer functionality is so nice, it makes a 60-key keyboard to how many you like due to the layers. For example, I have a layer key made for shortcuts. This might seem like a lot to remember, but you can adjust to what you like and you'll eventually remember it after a few weeks. The only problem with it is that the software for modifying keys is hard for some people to understand.
@@iLiokardo Not really because I always type inwards (hands facing diagonally to the right). That does mean that the T, Y and 4,5,6,7 keys are a bit harder to type but at least my typing angle is more ergonomic for me. I want the Moonlander Keyboard to solve this issue but it's not that hard to really annoy me.
I love my Keyboardio Model 01. They're just releasing their upgraded version, the Model 100. It has a wooden enclosure, and the thumb keys are in arcs that make them all easy to reach.
I just can't seem to find the right keyboard after mine broke : ( I can't spend a lot (definitely not as much as the Moonlander) Do you have any experience with less expensive keyboards, DT? Is there any other that you can recommend. BTW, You convinced me to use a trackball, been using it for around three months, love it.
5:16 a normal got there keys like that because the keyboard come from typewrites, and they get small arms they use to write with, and to make sure the arm did not hit each other, that is why vi get the qwerty layout too, it is design to be slow so the arms do not hit each other...
I have wrist issues that only seem to be relieved by a wide split on my keyboard but have always wondered if minimal movement on a Planck would work as well. Just kinda sucks that I'd have to drop almost $300 to try after already spending so much on various split keyboards
I actually used two 60% keebs for a while, imo its a little bit better due to the fact that you can press several keys with both right and left hand and you have more buttons to reassign.
What do you think of a bluetooth version? I developed a bluetooth but I have not released it, however if there is some interest I might release a low cost version with 3d printed case.
@@DistroTube yes wired is much better, my use case is probably not typical. I have multiple machines I work with and had a bunch of keyboards, constantly un/plugging. Some machines are not networked, there are some embedded machines so a software solution wouldn't work. So the idea was to have a usb dongle plugged into each machine and then just switch machines using a key binding. Because it's BLE it would work with compatible devices.
Love IT when u get ur hands on hardware every now and then. I'm working on regular keyboard from Bangkok due to characters from "other language" on the keys.. ok ok.. also because the lady of that shop is such a flower. She hunted for me whole IT centre in Bangkok for several exotic products and she found some AWESOME guy who fixed up my HP elitebook Quadro GPU that needed a new ram chip. And yes the price (discount).
I just made my first keyboard myself. Took about 6 hours split over several evenings (not including 3d printing time) without any prior soldering experience.
I would definitely watch a DT builds a custom split keyboard video, with some nice switches and keycaps, and also a DT showcases QMK and VIA/VIAL, or even an alternative firmware like ZMK or KMK!
Throwing a question out here for anyone swapping between a split ergo + traditional keyboard; which is kind of what you have to do if using a desktop + laptop. How do you manage with muscle memory? Does it drive you nuts? Actually ignore the 'nuts' bit... if you've gone down the ergo rabbit hole, you're already nuts. Does it confuse?
When I was still working a regular job, I had to use a standard keyboard at my work, and of course I had the ErgoDox at home. It took me a few minutes to adjust to each keyboard....for a few weeks. After awhile, I eventually got used to switching and could immediately start using whatever keyboard I was at.
I don't have any issues switching between except for any custom keys that I have mapped on my split keyboard. When I encounter those situations I usually pause for a second before realizing what to do. I think my muscle memory and the position of my hands helps me remember I'm on a different keyboard since my split halves are very far apart. Your mileage may very though.
I don’t think it’s a big deal. I use Dvorak on my keyboards but whenever I have to switch back to qwerty e.g. when using a colleagues PC it only takes me one word and I’m back qwerty. It’s like learning a different language. You don’t forget your mother tongue just be wise just learned a second language
Hi Derek, do you have any trick for setting up that Kensington Expert trackball? Because the Kensington software only work on Windows and MacOS, and I really want one to play with the ball.
I'm not familiar with that brand but I've used multi-button Logitech trackballs in Linux/Xorg without issue. If you want to use one of the buttons to turn the trackball into a scroll wheel (one of the few features I remember from the official Logitech software) that could be a bit more complicated to configure, but I think most mice are pretty well supported in general, and there should be workarounds for any particular proprietary feature. 🤔
I've never even considered changing anything on the Kensington. The default settings work just fine for me, and I would guess would probably be fine for most people.
I've never used a split keyboard, but I use the Preonic (basically the Planck, but with a number row) and I absolutely love it. If I had unlimited money, I'd just get a _reaaaaaaaally_ nice split Planck/Preonic layout board and that would probably be perfection for me.
for me the ergodox wrist rests clean instantly with a little warm water and light rubbing. It doesn't even need soap. The key is not dry it with paper or cloth. Strike the wrist rest against your palm a few times and that takes most of the moisture off. Rest will dry off fast.
I've now owned a Moonlander for about a month now, and it's easily the best keyboard I've had in 40 years of computing. One point where I feel you kind of miss the point, imo, though is the backlighting : it really helps a lot to remember where key types are (for example, I have a color for modifiers, one for dead keys, one for function keys, etc ..). As a bonus it is great for hinting on which layer you currently are, especially when it comes to 'sticky' layers.
I use ctrl, mod, alt, shift plus number pad in Fvwm3. Fvwm3 has endless options with keybindings. Write a function, set keybindings for it and you can do endless things you can think of. I hate mice, so that is a big bonus for me. I have a logitech MX Ergo Plus which has multiple angles, two pointer resolutions for quick or fine control for things like picture work, and you can bind two devices, one bluetooth, one with the usb dongle. But I still have to move my hands (I also use a lefty mouse on the left side). Can't wait for my moonlander to arrive.
I'd be interested to know your hand size / finger length. I unlike you don't have small hands so a standard keyboard doesn't give me reach issues, however I do hunch a lot I could probably benefit from one of these.
I tried this only once with a keyboard from a senior, and it was a disaster. I couldn't get to type anything properly without taking a look at the keyboard for 2 days straight and hence went back. Instead, I started taking my hands off the keyboard when I'm not using it and when I need to use the keyboard (I'm a software engineer, and I have to connect to a server which is a Linux machine with TMUX installed) I started to move the arm rest of my chair to be wider, so my hands on the keyboard will look like a triangle with equal distance. I only type continuously when I code, and that is for 2-3 hours a day. The rest of the day I'll be having meetings with team and other planning sessions where I don't need to touch the keyboard at all so it works fine. Maybe I will give these one more try, but can't say I'll stick to them yet.
Am I the only one who feels that the thumb cluster is too far away? I can't reach most of the keys there. They even say in the docs about the red ESC (by default) "This key is meant to be hit with your index finger rather than your thumb." I can't make it work for me, so thumbs are more useful but I feel like I don't use the full potential there
I do not think those keyboards are expensive. That said I am a developer and therefore use my keyboard several hours a day. It is my main work tool and it affects my health. Given that it is the wrong place to go cheap. And as you said they last. If you pay 500$ and use it 10 years then it is just 50$ a year.
Problem: my wife insists on ergonomic keyboards (2 of them for work and home). I can't type on them. Plus, working on all kinds of computers, I need to be able to type on the random (non-ergo) computer keyboard. I can't afford to mess up the typing skills I learned in high school typing class. Also regarding the Ctrl key, just swap it with the Caps Lock. That's what I do. Also, I work with a lot of numbers, and actively use the numeric keypad, which is miles faster than the main numbers on the keyboard.
I'd imagine it could be rough for DT to type on laptop keyboards after becoming accustomed to this space-age multi-layered ergo layout. 🤭 Using other peoples' systems, even becoming too reliant on custom keybindings (e.g. as typical minimalist window managers tend to accumulate) can be an issue: I can only imagine the nightmare of using someone else's random Emacs bindings. For using a numpad without modal keybinding layer matrices, there are standalone USB numpads (and some have mechanical switches too).
Seems like a cool keyboard. I’m slightly put off by the absence of CTRL key & using the Z. I do love mechanical & hot-swap. I’m currently using a DROP: CTRL. All letters are Brown MX, except w,a,s,d & up, down, left, right they use Red MX . Everything else is Blue MX.
I bought the moonlander on your recommendation and absolutely adore it! I have absolutely no qualms about it :) I greatly appreciate your bringing it to my attention! It's the best investment I've made for my pc comfort and use. Thank you DT!!
I will try to build one myself using the Corne kit. They are the "cheapest" ergo-split keyboard that I can think of and it is completely DIY. Just in case one of the electronic components blow up, the parts like diodes are basically as ubiquitous as potato chips on the supermarket.
Will it be harder to play games on this keyboard? If you want to press a key on the right half, it's hard to locate it with the left hand (your right hand might be holding the mouse).
About a year ago I've started lookig at those keyboards closer. I was like some of features in Ergodox and some in Kinesis. I've decided to 3d print and handwired Dactyl Manuform that is combining bests features from both of them. So much time and money spended on it. NO REGRETS whatsoever!
It's really odd to me, I see everyone using left hand for space bar but I always used my right hand thumb for space bar. switching from staggered to ortholinear, I realized I was touch typing my C's wrong. I would always contort my pointer finger to hit C, and with B key I would always stretch my right pointer finger to hit it. Those two keys gave me so much issue switching to ortholinear.
Almost three years ago I went the cheapest route I could find (a 40% Keebio Levinson/"Let's Split" PCB kit) and the only thing I would choose differently would be something with those extended thumb clusters (I can currently only really use three keys per thumb with these 6x4 rectangles.) There's absolutely no going back to a non-QMK keyboard and non-split ones would only be for travel.
As regards to that [ctrl/outermost bottom row]-key thing, once I started using [the side of my palm/the "0th joint" of the pinky] instead of contorting the pinkies has really made them nice keys to use, not to mention things like ^A or ^Q, which I can now do very ergonomically without shifting or rotating my hand AT ALL. (For me the shifts and backspace have a similar (but less severe) pinky contortion problem as my pinkies are by far my worst fingers by dexterity, making me have to move the whole hand a bit every time, I really should make those keys' positions to something more rarely used)
Your last video got me into buying a Dygma Raise keyboard. While not ortholinear, it is available with several ISO-keyboard layouts and keycaps. This keyboard really helps with my shoulder/neck problems. I love it so much that I got a second one for the office. I highly recommend split keyboards.
Love the video. I use the Microsoft 4000 ergonomics keyboard which not quite a split kb but is very comfortable with the split layout. However, it doesn't have backlight and I find it very difficult to find a split keyboard in the UK with backlight. These two looks interesting but I'm not sure if I can get them in the UK. Will go looking. Thanks again for the video.
For anyone that is interested in ortholinear and split keyboards but cannot justify the cost of a Moonlander or ErgoDox, give keyboards like the Levinson a look. It's basic kit that you'll need to build yourself, as well as supplying switches and keycaps, but can end up being a much cheaper, and potentially more customizable option.
DT, take a look at the X-Keys L-Trac trackball by P.I Engineering (blue glow is fab!) You can also add two plug in switches; forward/back for web browser, and I'm sure configurable for emacs too. Next on the list of my efficiency improvements... foot switches made by same company. Edit to say, the L-Trac is made in the USA. Quality is top notch and substantial.
@@MichaelVash7886 Prepare for price shock. Also, the scroll barrel is superbly smooth, but some say too far forward. I previously had the Kensington SlimBlade. Components on that were to say the least lightweight. L-Trac has top quality components and the feel is heavy. And... if you do want the two switches to plug in, they ain't exactly cheap either.
Hey DT, offtopic: do you use any audio filters to record the videos on OBS? And/or when you edit with kdenlive, do you apply any filter for audio? Thanks!
Using moonlander each day for about 15 minutes for about a month now, im taking a slow approach to learn dvorak, and not to destroy my qwerty muscle memory, so far working fine, and im up to about 20wpm. Wonderfull keyboard, will do a switch once i get up to 35wpm
Unfortunately, the only even halfway decent split keyboards available with a layout usable to me (ISO/swedish) are the Matias Ergo Pro and the Kinesis Freestyle. I prefer the Matias, but neither is perfect. Tip: If you use both a split keyboard and a trackball, try placing the trackball between the two parts of the keyboard. It allows you to move your mouse hand inwards, rather than outwards.
What is limiting you from just putting your regional characters to any qmk supported keyboard? Nothing. On boards like the moonlander there are plenty of free keys to add your ä and ö. Even on small boards like 36 sweep you can use tap dance, combos or different layers for them. You are limited by your thinking, not by the keyboards.
I wish these boards came with Gateron or Tecsee switches as a premium upsell. They are so much better than their competitors. The cynic in me suspects they had a deal to only offer Kaihl switches as a "premium" option to get a deal on their hotswap sockets. I also wonder if they properly lube their switches and stabilizers, or they leave it dry for users to handle themselves.
Very educative video about the stupidity to use a keyboard made for a device that was invented around 130 years old (the type writer). I'm french and type with BÉPO (alternative french layout) for 15 years. My keyboard is Typematrix (ortholinear), but it's not split and causes some pain due to the small formfactor, and I think you convinced me in trying this split keyboard… I'm already 44 and my right wrist isn't working much forcing me to be a lefty for years with the vertical mouse, but the left wrist won't last much… Thanks for all your work.
Hey DT, Are the keyboard layouts stored on the keyboard or on the computer. I get moved around to a few computers at work, mostly running Windows, and if I'm going to invest in these keyboards, I want to use just this and not swap between split to 110.
I'm happy that I got used to a natural and relaxed position, and that I can type faster than I will ever need on a keyboard for 10 bucks. All of this is honestly a little bit ridiculous if don't have health issues related to typing. Mechanical keyboards are not faster and not even more accurate in general (I have two). Not because they are so bad, but because many rubberdome keyboards are so good. Sure, the keys feel soft, mushy, wobbly but I have already typed 10 correct characters before I notice anything, so I just get over it.
man now that ive been using a 3d printed redox for about a month i have got to agree with the points here, my main selling point imo is the ortho nature i actually touch type properly instead of using 4 fingers and a thumb
Couple of questions: 1.) Tell us about that trackball too. 2.) You say it's open source software, but is it Free Software, i.e., copyleft? 3.) Are there molded clear silicone "skins" available for them?
Hey DT! How has the moonlander worked for you? Any complaints / any problems ? I have used ergodox ez couple years ago and now I'm thinking to try moonlander. Currently I am using dygma raise paired with Kensington expert wireless mouse (awesome mouse by the way).
I only use primary colour LED backlights, because I grew up using PCs and Macs in dark rooms, through the late 80s and early 90s. Not to mention when I got into LAN Parties 🤣 I find the best backlight for a dark room is a deep or dark purple, as it leans more in the red colour gamut; which is therefore easier on the eyes, whilst still giving good visibility, if you need to find a function/super/meta key. Honestly though, I only need that for gaming, as each game has different control schemes. Otherwise it is muscle memory all the way
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400$ / 8 hours a day / 250 days a year / 5 years = 0.04$ per hour, and you need to think about you are saving on Hospital bills too, so it is a win - win
Honestly for something that I'd use daily for hours I wouldn't mind saving up
Ok consoomer
> Hospital bills
Most American thing i've heard in a while
@@geraldohendriks you still have them too. It's called taxes. Get outta here.
@@NathanHedglin That's actually false. Paying for healthcare increases tax revenue on account of those people not dying, and saves money on costly operations down the line that people instead spend on other areas of the economy.
For-profit healthcare system is literally only useful for the people working in healthcare, mostly in the insurance business
4:48 it's just derived from typewriters.
Typewriters needed a mechanical arm to go from the key to the hammer. If the keys would have been stacked in perfect columns, the arms would physically collide, or the typewriter would have been very tall.
So they shifted each row a bit to make room for the arms.
It's totally useless today, but people are used to that layout now.
They also made the typewriter layout intentional slow (QWERTY that is)
@@joshuawjulian it was to stop commonly paired letters from jamming.
So whilst people often say it was to force you to type more slowly, it was actually to allow you type faster
Another keyboard that's pretty cool is the Dactyl Manuform. You either have to make it yourself or pay a little more for it, but it's a split keyboard that is actually concave so each key is the same distance from your fingers without moving your wrists. It's a fun project to do if you have the equipment and some time.
+1 Dactyl Manuforms are incredible keyboards.
I love my Dacman with 36 keys using Miryoku layout!
also known as “bowl shape”.
But is that thumb key design better? One thing, the keys are diagonal, so you get less help by gravity.
I hope someone would mass produce it.
Is there an inexpensive way to have the cases and switch plates fabricated? You could almost buy a 3D printer for the price of the completed board.
Just got my moonlander because of your video and I’m loving it. I just need to retrain my muscle memory due to the unusual unshifted grid layout
I am an owner of Moonlander, and it was the first keyboard I learned to touch type. The main reason for that is that traditional keyboards have staggered layout, and it is honestly very illogical for me, every time I tried to learn to touch type on it was a failure. With Moonlander, however, I learned to touch type and in two completely different layouts - Colemak and seif-made Colemak-like layout for my own native language!
Though the keyboard was expensive - it was totally worth it - very comfortable typing, powerful programmable macro and the convenience of the configurator on their site.
I really like just how excited or amp you can get in your videos. I’m always learning something and your enthusiasm is contagious. It’s not over the top, but it’s still nice to see genuine passion like this.
Custom keyboards are the thing. Everybody can find or at least create from scratch the keyboard that suits them best.
corne is the best for me personally btw 👽
Corne is perfect! I have three of them
But what's good general info and best practices? Well, _what's most efficient?_
@@iLiokardo I only have my experience, which is to create a keymap which seems logical to you even before trying to use something like corne. As a result I learned mine in less than a week and since then (almost a year) it had very few modifications.
Never considered a split keyboard.. may be great for gaming as well. Something to consider. Thx, you are a wealth of info.
EDIT: it is scientific fact RGB keyboards make you 34.2% more productive.
Mine support only one color, so at max I can be 11% more productive. Also a few keys do not light up anymore. I am barely 10% more productive.
@@thingsiplay lol
Yes, I love my Moonlander for gaming as I just use the left half for gaming (you can even unplug the right half, but I just put it away) so my mouse sits comfortably in front of my right hand which is just way more comfortable and consumes way less space on the desk 👍
@@earthling_parth outstanding. good to know. i guess ima have to buy one now. thx
Nah, when you have a gmk set you paid 200+ dollars for and have waited for like 2 years to get, you'll be 200% more productive.
You inspired me to get my own split keyboard, you and Ben Vallack however, I cannot justify the expense seeing is I'm just starting my journey into computers... So I bought two of the cheapest number pads I could find ($10 a piece). I wrote a custom layout for each one and assigned them accordingly, I now have a twenty dollar ortho linear split keyboard. I'm still working out how to get different levels set up so I can have all 100 keys (minus the Caps lock) that a full keyboard has but I at least have the alpha keys and the modifiers, for now.
I was having shoulder pain for months. After a week of using the Moondlander the pain was gone. The transition took a month+, but worth the effort and money.
Yeah I got fractures and nerve damage, in shoulders and arms. The moonlander has been a góðs send! 👍🍻💪
I've had the moonlander for nearly a year, it is hands down the best keyboard I've ever used. My layout has changed so much since the first one I did. I use home row modifiers so my super, alt, ctrl, and shift are bound to the hold function on the keys in the home row on each side so I don't have to move my hands to press those keys. It has changed the way I use the keyboard. I have pretty bad RSI in my wrists and elbows and using this keyboard with a track ball mouse (the elicom huge) between the keyboard halves has eliminated the pain I had using a standard keyboard and mouse.
Does it accept 5 pin linear switches?
@@Mr.Plutonium I don't know sorry.
Ever since I've discovered your channel I find myself back "daily". I appreciate these extremely well put together in-depth reviews and explanations of technology.
Wish I could subscribe more than once lol.
Blessings to you!
Absolutely agree with all points! These keyboards make such obvious sense that that makes you wonder what the other guys been thinking all these years. The moon lander forces you into good typing habits, especially for vim. The only downside is you're going to pay significantly more for them. But I love that clicky key moon lander I would like to get one as soon as I can. Peace brother!
Just to clarify that QMK is also the firmware itself, so the firmware is also open source.
In the case of the ErgoDox - the hardware is also open source. The Moonlander (as far as I know) is not open source hardware.
I replace the caps lock key with control in my standard layout. As a programmer I almost never use all caps so it makes more sense for me to use the caps a a ctrl which I use all the time.
I did the same 5 years ago. Never regreted decision.
Same, with the exception that a press-and-release of CapsLock is Escape and a hold of CapsLock is Control.
@@auntiecarol Great idea, I will have to try that one.
i work in a lab and split my time between the desk and benchtop. between pipetting a lot and typing up reports, this was a huge game changer! i use the moonlander and can say it helps way more when writing or coding due to the ergonomics. it is quite expensive but well worth it if you type a lot for work/school! my hands dont cramp nearly as much as a trad board. if youre in a similar situation, the split/tented boards are well worth investigating
I feel like the keymapping and stuff flashing directly to the keyboard without requiring an external program is actually really powerful and for example you can just plug it in to a fresh arch linux install and all the stuff you have basically all still works and is exactly the layout you designed. Mine is a customish Workman layout with custom places for all the symbols so would be a pain if i need to use a default keyboard for a while and install external software onto the system to use the keyboard the way i like. huge plus IMO. Also can just plug into any pc and it just works. really cool feature all by itself excluding all the other excellent features. Only real downside is the Oryx trainer requires a chromium browser which i'm not a massive fan of, but that program isn't required by any stretch to use the keyboard, can configure and everything wihtout ever needing that, but it is very helpful while learning a new layout.
Well, you can also flash directly to the board from that browser. Click through the steps, hit a key on some layer that does "reset" and puts it into pairing mode, select it from the dialog and done. No Wally required. (Works for Moonlander on a Mac at any rate)
Nice to see you're a user of split keebs. I was diagnosed with Rheumatoid arthritis and one of my first changes was getting a split keyboard and I haven't looked back since.
Edit: Split keyboard and ergo chair = hours without even realizing you're sitting at a desk.
I ended up making my own dactyl manuform board as I'm studying computer science and needed to upgrade my keyboard from the old gaming keyboard I used to use. It's not fancy like these boards but it's very comfortable to use and it cost a lot less to build it myself.
I use the Moonlander too after using a few split custom builts ones.
I also use a Dvorak-inspired layout with home row modifiers, with all this I rarely ever move from the home row!
I've used a Ortholinear (preonic) keyboard since summer. I love how easy it is to type after a while first of all, plus the layer functionality is so nice, it makes a 60-key keyboard to how many you like due to the layers. For example, I have a layer key made for shortcuts. This might seem like a lot to remember, but you can adjust to what you like and you'll eventually remember it after a few weeks. The only problem with it is that the software for modifying keys is hard for some people to understand.
Are your wrists bent outward when using it?
@@iLiokardo Not really because I always type inwards (hands facing diagonally to the right). That does mean that the T, Y and 4,5,6,7 keys are a bit harder to type but at least my typing angle is more ergonomic for me.
I want the Moonlander Keyboard to solve this issue but it's not that hard to really annoy me.
I love my Keyboardio Model 01. They're just releasing their upgraded version, the Model 100. It has a wooden enclosure, and the thumb keys are in arcs that make them all easy to reach.
Bought moonlander because i saw it on your channel, took me 2 years to pull the trigger, and will arrive at my place tomorrow
How did you get on with it?
I just can't seem to find the right keyboard after mine broke : (
I can't spend a lot (definitely not as much as the Moonlander)
Do you have any experience with less expensive keyboards, DT? Is there any other that you can recommend.
BTW, You convinced me to use a trackball, been using it for around three months, love it.
I haven't used any other brand of split keyboards. But I'm sure others will respond with recommendations, so I'm pinning this comment.
You should look into DIY keyboards. Like the Corne or the Iris. The Corne is great and you can customize the layout with QMK.
Ergodone, Ms natural ergonomic (not quite the same but way cheaper) and sculpt ergonomic.
Sofle and dactyl manuform for more diy approach.
@@pointerish the ergodox and moonlander also work with QMK. Just mentioning it for others that might see this.
@@joe_ferreira Ah, good to know. That's new information for me. Cool.
5:16 a normal got there keys like that because the keyboard come from typewrites, and they get small arms they use to write with, and to make sure the arm did not hit each other, that is why vi get the qwerty layout too, it is design to be slow so the arms do not hit each other...
Never felt the need for a split keyboard. But I bought a mechanical keyboard which was a game changer.
I’ve been through multiple split keyboards over the years. But I ended up loving the Planck. Such a good compromise. And even less finger movements.
I have wrist issues that only seem to be relieved by a wide split on my keyboard but have always wondered if minimal movement on a Planck would work as well. Just kinda sucks that I'd have to drop almost $300 to try after already spending so much on various split keyboards
we want a video on that mouse
Just got the ergodox ez glad you like it
I actually used two 60% keebs for a while, imo its a little bit better due to the fact that you can press several keys with both right and left hand and you have more buttons to reassign.
What do you think of a bluetooth version? I developed a bluetooth but I have not released it, however if there is some interest I might release a low cost version with 3d printed case.
I've been looking into a split mechanical bluetooth keyboard for a while now!
I actually purchased these keyboards (and my mouse) because they were WIRED. I've never liked the latency issues that come with wireless.
@@DistroTube yes wired is much better, my use case is probably not typical. I have multiple machines I work with and had a bunch of keyboards, constantly un/plugging. Some machines are not networked, there are some embedded machines so a software solution wouldn't work. So the idea was to have a usb dongle plugged into each machine and then just switch machines using a key binding. Because it's BLE it would work with compatible devices.
Great video DT. Thanks man. Really like the reviews.
Love IT when u get ur hands on hardware every now and then. I'm working on regular keyboard from Bangkok due to characters from "other language" on the keys.. ok ok.. also because the lady of that shop is such a flower. She hunted for me whole IT centre in Bangkok for several exotic products and she found some AWESOME guy who fixed up my HP elitebook Quadro GPU that needed a new ram chip. And yes the price (discount).
I just made my first keyboard myself. Took about 6 hours split over several evenings (not including 3d printing time) without any prior soldering experience.
Thank you, good and inspiring review.
How about gaming on this keyboard? Also how about using tracball as a daily driver?
I would definitely watch a DT builds a custom split keyboard video, with some nice switches and keycaps, and also a DT showcases QMK and VIA/VIAL, or even an alternative firmware like ZMK or KMK!
Throwing a question out here for anyone swapping between a split ergo + traditional keyboard; which is kind of what you have to do if using a desktop + laptop. How do you manage with muscle memory? Does it drive you nuts? Actually ignore the 'nuts' bit... if you've gone down the ergo rabbit hole, you're already nuts. Does it confuse?
When I was still working a regular job, I had to use a standard keyboard at my work, and of course I had the ErgoDox at home. It took me a few minutes to adjust to each keyboard....for a few weeks. After awhile, I eventually got used to switching and could immediately start using whatever keyboard I was at.
@@DistroTube Thanks from the UK. Think that's a question so many will be asking.
I don't have any issues switching between except for any custom keys that I have mapped on my split keyboard. When I encounter those situations I usually pause for a second before realizing what to do. I think my muscle memory and the position of my hands helps me remember I'm on a different keyboard since my split halves are very far apart. Your mileage may very though.
@@mathamoz Thanks. I'm going to go for it in the next few months. Should be interesting.
I don’t think it’s a big deal. I use Dvorak on my keyboards but whenever I have to switch back to qwerty e.g. when using a colleagues PC it only takes me one word and I’m back qwerty.
It’s like learning a different language. You don’t forget your mother tongue just be wise just learned a second language
Hi Derek, do you have any trick for setting up that Kensington Expert trackball? Because the Kensington software only work on Windows and MacOS, and I really want one to play with the ball.
I'm not familiar with that brand but I've used multi-button Logitech trackballs in Linux/Xorg without issue. If you want to use one of the buttons to turn the trackball into a scroll wheel (one of the few features I remember from the official Logitech software) that could be a bit more complicated to configure, but I think most mice are pretty well supported in general, and there should be workarounds for any particular proprietary feature. 🤔
I've never even considered changing anything on the Kensington. The default settings work just fine for me, and I would guess would probably be fine for most people.
“You can see here the Planck, what ortholinear means”
If only people said “grid layout” instead of “ortholinear”. Real idiocy.
I've never used a split keyboard, but I use the Preonic (basically the Planck, but with a number row) and I absolutely love it. If I had unlimited money, I'd just get a _reaaaaaaaally_ nice split Planck/Preonic layout board and that would probably be perfection for me.
for me the ergodox wrist rests clean instantly with a little warm water and light rubbing. It doesn't even need soap. The key is not dry it with paper or cloth. Strike the wrist rest against your palm a few times and that takes most of the moisture off. Rest will dry off fast.
I've now owned a Moonlander for about a month now, and it's easily the best keyboard I've had in 40 years of computing. One point where I feel you kind of miss the point, imo, though is the backlighting : it really helps a lot to remember where key types are (for example, I have a color for modifiers, one for dead keys, one for function keys, etc ..). As a bonus it is great for hinting on which layer you currently are, especially when it comes to 'sticky' layers.
I definitely need one of these now.
Edit: 300 dollars? Sure it’s a great keyboard but good lord I can just build and 3D print one at that point.
I use ctrl, mod, alt, shift plus number pad in Fvwm3. Fvwm3 has endless options with keybindings. Write a function, set keybindings for it and you can do endless things you can think of. I hate mice, so that is a big bonus for me. I have a logitech MX Ergo Plus which has multiple angles, two pointer resolutions for quick or fine control for things like picture work, and you can bind two devices, one bluetooth, one with the usb dongle. But I still have to move my hands (I also use a lefty mouse on the left side). Can't wait for my moonlander to arrive.
I'd be interested to know your hand size / finger length. I unlike you don't have small hands so a standard keyboard doesn't give me reach issues, however I do hunch a lot I could probably benefit from one of these.
On a piano, I can stretch exactly one octave.
@@DistroTube Thanks for the reply! now i just have to get my hands on a piano :D
If Z is your CTRL key... how do you do CTRL-Z ? Seems like an important key combo that would be needed daily
Tap dance. You hold Z to trigger Ctrl, then you release and tap Z immediately again.
I tried this only once with a keyboard from a senior, and it was a disaster. I couldn't get to type anything properly without taking a look at the keyboard for 2 days straight and hence went back. Instead, I started taking my hands off the keyboard when I'm not using it and when I need to use the keyboard (I'm a software engineer, and I have to connect to a server which is a Linux machine with TMUX installed) I started to move the arm rest of my chair to be wider, so my hands on the keyboard will look like a triangle with equal distance. I only type continuously when I code, and that is for 2-3 hours a day. The rest of the day I'll be having meetings with team and other planning sessions where I don't need to touch the keyboard at all so it works fine. Maybe I will give these one more try, but can't say I'll stick to them yet.
Am I the only one who feels that the thumb cluster is too far away? I can't reach most of the keys there. They even say in the docs about the red ESC (by default) "This key is meant to be hit with your index finger rather than your thumb." I can't make it work for me, so thumbs are more useful but I feel like I don't use the full potential there
Yes ! I feel the ctrl key pain! I broke my pinky back In high school, had to have surgery and a temp pin put in. Hitting that ctrl key is a pain
I do not think those keyboards are expensive. That said I am a developer and therefore use my keyboard several hours a day. It is my main work tool and it affects my health. Given that it is the wrong place to go cheap. And as you said they last. If you pay 500$ and use it 10 years then it is just 50$ a year.
Problem: my wife insists on ergonomic keyboards (2 of them for work and home). I can't type on them. Plus, working on all kinds of computers, I need to be able to type on the random (non-ergo) computer keyboard. I can't afford to mess up the typing skills I learned in high school typing class. Also regarding the Ctrl key, just swap it with the Caps Lock. That's what I do. Also, I work with a lot of numbers, and actively use the numeric keypad, which is miles faster than the main numbers on the keyboard.
I'd imagine it could be rough for DT to type on laptop keyboards after becoming accustomed to this space-age multi-layered ergo layout. 🤭 Using other peoples' systems, even becoming too reliant on custom keybindings (e.g. as typical minimalist window managers tend to accumulate) can be an issue: I can only imagine the nightmare of using someone else's random Emacs bindings. For using a numpad without modal keybinding layer matrices, there are standalone USB numpads (and some have mechanical switches too).
Sometimes I can't avoid typing on a classical keyboard but what a relief to come back to my Ergodox!
Wow, very thorough compared to other reviews and excellent points mentioned. Plus linux and open source advocate it seems. Subscribed.
Just an FYI, QWERTY layout was invented to actually slow the typist down. Typewriters would jam using other layouts as the key presses were too fast.
This is funny I just ordered my moonlander last night
Colemak did it for me. And am finally fluent in it.
Seems like a cool keyboard. I’m slightly put off by the absence of CTRL key & using the Z. I do love mechanical & hot-swap. I’m currently using a DROP: CTRL. All letters are Brown MX, except w,a,s,d & up, down, left, right they use Red MX . Everything else is Blue MX.
Its not gone, just in a different spot now. Plus since the keyboard is configurable you can put it anywhere you think is feasible.
How to configure the caps-lock key to light up while it's active?
I haven't found how to change that, other than that it's great.
If you have the Z key be control on long press, how do you CTRL+z?
aka undo
I have two CTRL keys....one is "z" held and other is "/" held. So CTRL-z would just be holding "/" and then tapping "z".
@@DistroTube ohhhh, that explains it, thanks!
I bought the moonlander on your recommendation and absolutely adore it! I have absolutely no qualms about it :) I greatly appreciate your bringing it to my attention! It's the best investment I've made for my pc comfort and use. Thank you DT!!
I will try to build one myself using the Corne kit.
They are the "cheapest" ergo-split keyboard that I can think of and it is completely DIY. Just in case one of the electronic components blow up, the parts like diodes are basically as ubiquitous as potato chips on the supermarket.
Will it be harder to play games on this keyboard? If you want to press a key on the right half, it's hard to locate it with the left hand (your right hand might be holding the mouse).
I'm not a hardcore gamer but this keyboard hasn't negatively impacted me at all in games (I typically play FPS and RTS).
About a year ago I've started lookig at those keyboards closer. I was like some of features in Ergodox and some in Kinesis. I've decided to 3d print and handwired Dactyl Manuform that is combining bests features from both of them.
So much time and money spended on it. NO REGRETS whatsoever!
Hey, whats the brand/make of your chair?
It's really odd to me, I see everyone using left hand for space bar but I always used my right hand thumb for space bar. switching from staggered to ortholinear, I realized I was touch typing my C's wrong. I would always contort my pointer finger to hit C, and with B key I would always stretch my right pointer finger to hit it. Those two keys gave me so much issue switching to ortholinear.
Almost three years ago I went the cheapest route I could find (a 40% Keebio Levinson/"Let's Split" PCB kit) and the only thing I would choose differently would be something with those extended thumb clusters (I can currently only really use three keys per thumb with these 6x4 rectangles.)
There's absolutely no going back to a non-QMK keyboard and non-split ones would only be for travel.
As regards to that [ctrl/outermost bottom row]-key thing, once I started using [the side of my palm/the "0th joint" of the pinky] instead of contorting the pinkies has really made them nice keys to use, not to mention things like ^A or ^Q, which I can now do very ergonomically without shifting or rotating my hand AT ALL.
(For me the shifts and backspace have a similar (but less severe) pinky contortion problem as my pinkies are by far my worst fingers by dexterity, making me have to move the whole hand a bit every time, I really should make those keys' positions to something more rarely used)
Your last video got me into buying a Dygma Raise keyboard. While not ortholinear, it is available with several ISO-keyboard layouts and keycaps. This keyboard really helps with my shoulder/neck problems. I love it so much that I got a second one for the office.
I highly recommend split keyboards.
Love the video. I use the Microsoft 4000 ergonomics keyboard which not quite a split kb but is very comfortable with the split layout. However, it doesn't have backlight and I find it very difficult to find a split keyboard in the UK with backlight. These two looks interesting but I'm not sure if I can get them in the UK. Will go looking. Thanks again for the video.
Try the Dygma Raise yet? Also the Dygma Defy is coming soon as well. Another step forward in split key, ortho linear ergonomics. All the best.
What do you think about the Charachorder ONE Keyboard?
For anyone that is interested in ortholinear and split keyboards but cannot justify the cost of a Moonlander or ErgoDox, give keyboards like the Levinson a look. It's basic kit that you'll need to build yourself, as well as supplying switches and keycaps, but can end up being a much cheaper, and potentially more customizable option.
what is the mouse ball you have called?
DT, take a look at the X-Keys L-Trac trackball by P.I Engineering (blue glow is fab!) You can also add two plug in switches; forward/back for web browser, and I'm sure configurable for emacs too. Next on the list of my efficiency improvements... foot switches made by same company. Edit to say, the L-Trac is made in the USA. Quality is top notch and substantial.
Will be looking into this one.. I picked up the elecom huge and have really liked it.
@@MichaelVash7886 Prepare for price shock. Also, the scroll barrel is superbly smooth, but some say too far forward. I previously had the Kensington SlimBlade. Components on that were to say the least lightweight. L-Trac has top quality components and the feel is heavy. And... if you do want the two switches to plug in, they ain't exactly cheap either.
your trackball mouse is amazing!
Can't recommend the Kensington Expert highly enough. I even use it when I play 0 A.D. :D
The moonlander is better for small hands then?
Hey DT, offtopic: do you use any audio filters to record the videos on OBS? And/or when you edit with kdenlive, do you apply any filter for audio? Thanks!
Any opinions on the upcoming dygma defy?
Hi, DT. How big screen you use? I know that you use several screens. But what you think is better: bigger screen or several smaller.
Using moonlander each day for about 15 minutes for about a month now, im taking a slow approach to learn dvorak, and not to destroy my qwerty muscle memory, so far working fine, and im up to about 20wpm. Wonderfull keyboard, will do a switch once i get up to 35wpm
Will a 3d connexxion device get in the way
Unfortunately, the only even halfway decent split keyboards available with a layout usable to me (ISO/swedish) are the Matias Ergo Pro and the Kinesis Freestyle. I prefer the Matias, but neither is perfect.
Tip: If you use both a split keyboard and a trackball, try placing the trackball between the two parts of the keyboard. It allows you to move your mouse hand inwards, rather than outwards.
What is limiting you from just putting your regional characters to any qmk supported keyboard? Nothing. On boards like the moonlander there are plenty of free keys to add your ä and ö. Even on small boards like 36 sweep you can use tap dance, combos or different layers for them. You are limited by your thinking, not by the keyboards.
forget about the keyboard, what mouse is that :D ?
The planckez is my go to… not split but it’s really saved my hands
Which wireless ones do you recommend? Thnx
So I now want this keyboard. But what about that mouse?
I wish these boards came with Gateron or Tecsee switches as a premium upsell. They are so much better than their competitors. The cynic in me suspects they had a deal to only offer Kaihl switches as a "premium" option to get a deal on their hotswap sockets.
I also wonder if they properly lube their switches and stabilizers, or they leave it dry for users to handle themselves.
With delivery cost to EU it is quite expensive. Is any alternative in this market?
You can have the open source bastardkb made with a 3D printer.
And now you will want a Dygma. 😉
Hi..
Pls does the one hand keyboard work on windows 10
Very educative video about the stupidity to use a keyboard made for a device that was invented around 130 years old (the type writer). I'm french and type with BÉPO (alternative french layout) for 15 years. My keyboard is Typematrix (ortholinear), but it's not split and causes some pain due to the small formfactor, and I think you convinced me in trying this split keyboard… I'm already 44 and my right wrist isn't working much forcing me to be a lefty for years with the vertical mouse, but the left wrist won't last much… Thanks for all your work.
Same here but I will stick with my Typematrix.
@@zolaarczakle It true that it's a good keyboard, and the price !
whats the name of your trackpad mouse?
Hey DT, Are the keyboard layouts stored on the keyboard or on the computer. I get moved around to a few computers at work, mostly running Windows, and if I'm going to invest in these keyboards, I want to use just this and not swap between split to 110.
Mistel Barocco MD770 is the best ergonomic split keyboard if one doesn’t want to compromise on the TKL layout.
I'm happy that I got used to a natural and relaxed position, and that I can type faster than I will ever need on a keyboard for 10 bucks. All of this is honestly a little bit ridiculous if don't have health issues related to typing. Mechanical keyboards are not faster and not even more accurate in general (I have two). Not because they are so bad, but because many rubberdome keyboards are so good.
Sure, the keys feel soft, mushy, wobbly but I have already typed 10 correct characters before I notice anything, so I just get over it.
man now that ive been using a 3d printed redox for about a month i have got to agree with the points here, my main selling point imo is the ortho nature i actually touch type properly instead of using 4 fingers and a thumb
Couple of questions:
1.) Tell us about that trackball too.
2.) You say it's open source software, but is it Free Software, i.e., copyleft?
3.) Are there molded clear silicone "skins" available for them?
Hey DT! How has the moonlander worked for you? Any complaints / any problems ? I have used ergodox ez couple years ago and now I'm thinking to try moonlander. Currently I am using dygma raise paired with Kensington expert wireless mouse (awesome mouse by the way).
I got preonic and planck, for work and home. When you go for ortho, it's hard to go back.
Hey DT, I want to set fan speed in my laptop (msi gf65 10UE) (manjaro) but can't find a way. Please help.
I only use primary colour LED backlights, because I grew up using PCs and Macs in dark rooms, through the late 80s and early 90s. Not to mention when I got into LAN Parties 🤣
I find the best backlight for a dark room is a deep or dark purple, as it leans more in the red colour gamut; which is therefore easier on the eyes, whilst still giving good visibility, if you need to find a function/super/meta key.
Honestly though, I only need that for gaming, as each game has different control schemes. Otherwise it is muscle memory all the way