Mr. Big Stings : Cops, Criminals and Confessions - the fifth estate
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- It’s one of the most controversial police investigation techniques and it’s homegrown. Illegal in many other countries, including the U.S. the RCMP’s “Mr. Big sting” has recently had serious limits imposed by the Supreme Court of Canada. Cops get murder suspects to confess by posing as a criminal gang, befriending suspects and gaining their trust through odd jobs and payment. Eventually, suspects meet the crime boss, “Mr Big” who says he can help them with any charges they have - but only if they confess first.
The creator of Mr. Big, who acted as the crime boss in dozens of stings, appears on camera for the first time to defend his technique while top defence attorney Marie Henein raises concerns about the RCMP’s methods. We look at 3 of Canada’s most infamous cases in light of the new rules and try to find out where the truth lies when you mix Cops, Criminals and Confessions.
The cases are the that of Sebastian Burns & Atif Rafay, Andy Rose and Jason Dix.
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I was born in Seattle in 1973, where I grew up. Japanese-American. Since 2012, Vancouver BC has become my favorite vacation spot. I am most fascinated with cases that occurred in Washington, Oregon, and British Columbia, because I can place myself at the scenes of the crimes.
Lol same here
I live just outside Vancouver myself, and often drive to Oregon, and Washington for work. I listen to true crime podcasts, and see the areas where so many violent crimes take place. I can relate to that statement.
The most appalling thing is talking to his child like that. Guilty or not!
i agree and he is paying for that crime now dont need his rubbish that was thrown at him
taher tufenkeji it doesn’t matter where you go there is always going to be corruption in law enforcement. It’s just human nature
Agreed!!!
There are good honest judges in Canada and I applaud them for being fair and honest. I experience it myself. The prosecutor wanted to find me guilty, but my lawyer was smart.
Prob cause you were guilty, innocent until proven guilty
I bet you are guilty! There’s no smoke without fire and you were in court for a reason.
I can clearly see and understand the flaw with the Mr. Big operation. With that said, I refuse to believe Atif and Sebastian are innocent. Under threat or not, anyone who laughs and describes their family being butchered is a psychopath and shouldn't live amongst us, free on the streets.
Yeah I agree ,they are both pretty messed up. They looked guilty right from the start.
By refusing to believe the possibility of innocence, you are not allowing yourself to realize the pressure of the situation they were in. I didn't find the confessions very credible. But we are all entitled to our opinions...
One thing is true the young will talk trash at times
Sad if they did do it and locked up takes a toll on the mine
most prisoners protest their innocence. It's strange. Perhaps torture would help?
I can see the flaw as well but you have also got to look at the perspective of Canada almost being commuist, a complete fully unfunctional liberal state. Anything against any type of any 'human right' is deemed unacceptable especially when being unfairly induced isn't near your human rights lmao
I can easily see how someone could adopt a false persona if they believed they were dealing with a crime boss that could potentially do them great harm if they didn't play along. How many of us would want to take our chances saying the wrong thing to a Mafia boss for example. I think most of us would consider such a scenario very frightening.
I grew up in New York City in the 1980’s and 90’s. Do you know how many drug dealers I had to run away from an dodge so they wouldn’t try to sell me their poison and get me hooked. I never wanted to impress them with stories of crimes like Glen Sebastian Burns.
often the innocent are put under the microscope and their lives torn apart while the real psychopaths go free
Use mr big to get key info, like asking where the murder weapon is. Not confessions, info only the killer would know
They should try the same thing with a different suspect and see if they confess aswell
Good point that would be interesting
No!!!! Fn way!!! You do not ask a 4 yr old if they know if someone? Killed someone!!
Total BS!!! No!!!!
Why not? That’s dumb. By virtue of being 4 they cannot possibly know anything or have anything to add about a murder? At 4 you’re able to speak and communicate, furthermore you’re innocent, you’ve got nothing to hide or protect, rather no incentive or understanding you need to lie. That 4 year old wouldn’t randomly say my father did it. Completely illogical position of yours. In fact in hundreds of murders that were witnessed in front of children, as young as 3, they’ve asked those children what they saw. Not in the manner as that man was “interrogated” with yelling, rather they talked to the 4 year old as you would talk to a 4 year old.
2 hours in a bar for an alcoholic is 7 hours to a regular person. He already has alcohol in his system . Around the clock .
personally I am NOT in the habit of boasting about crime I HAVEN'T committed (I don't commit crime by the way)!
Youre a goof betterhope i dont find u
I understand this and neither would I, but you have to realize the emotional stress that is put on these people. Hours and hours of emotional manipulation and actually getting the suspect drunk can cause many people to confess to something they didn’t do.
How can someone work in the name of justice and yet do everything but bringing justice?
Right!!
Mr Big is questionable to say the least and for many reasons totally illegal in most developed and democratic countries.
Shouldn’t even be questionable. Anyone is going to commit to a crime if they think doing so would save them from being murdered. Hell what they did to the Central Park 5 wasn’t as bad as this and doing that has already been out lawed in many states.
So obviously there are a ton of potential problems with Mr. Big stings, many I can think of off the top of my head and too many to go into here, but on the other side, I have to say the very best example of how an operation like this should be conducted that I've ever seen or heard of thus far--the least problematic one that best illustrates the positives--is that in the Erin Chorney (sp?) case. They not only obtained hard corroborating evidence there, it was something only the killer could know, so that's pretty airtight.
In my view (as an American where this whole technique isn't legal to my knowledge), that's the only set of circumstances under which Mr. Big stings should be authorized and admissably used to prosecute someone: if 1.) evidence (ideally hard/physical evidence) is obtainable/obtained that confirms the details in the Mr. Big confession(s), and 2.) if the information directly leading to that evidence, and/or any other details in the confession that can be plausibly corroborated (with what the police, but not the public/media, already know, for example about the crime scene, from the autopsy, etc.), could *only* have been known by the perpetrator. The Canadian Supreme Court handed down a decision recently that established essentially similar but less stringent criteria for admissability IIRC. Sure, there are still some major issues from an academic/theoretical legal ethics standpoint, but from a layperson's perspective they don't seem like that big of a deal and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find many people in general who who would take issue with or object to convictions resulting from Mr. Big stings carried out purely within these narrow bounds and criteria. Cases like those this documentary focuses upon would be inherently excluded as wholly inappropriate for the use of the technique.
All that said, one glaring issue with the whole Mr. Big tactic that nobody ever seems to mention when discussing the problems with it is how it's not only "positively" coercive in ways that could elicit false confessions (i.e., there's great potential reward dangled in front of the suspect that might prompt them to falsely confess or exaggerate), it also has high potential to be "negatively" coercive in such a way that compromises the verity and validity of the confessions, too. That is to say, there's a good chance many people might feel inclined to confess to the "crime boss" figure simply out of *fear*, as they're led to believe that a dangerous, powerful and violent/unpredictable crime boss--who has the power to look into their backgrounds and find out any connections to any cases they might be at all related to or a potential suspect in--who presumably can make people disappear, is concerned about their loyalty and risk to the "organization".
It doesn't seem like a stretch to imagine then that an innocent person caught up in one of these stings--even a skeptical one who realizes it might be a sting!--could end up feeling like their own life/safety could be in jeopardy if they don't confess, in anticipation that Mr. Big will find out that there's a case they're connected to, suspect them of being the perp himself, and take them out because he's concerned that having such a person in his organization (who's already met him and committed crimes for him, no less) could compromise his operation, say by eventually getting arrested for that crime/case and testifying against him to get a better deal. Anyone who's seen even the silliest portrayals of organized crime in pop culture knows that mob bosses don't just take people at their word and don't let someone off the hook if they feel there's a chance that person could rat them out about anything. And that crime bosses are brutal, paranoid and unpredictable and can get rid of someone on a hunch to cover themselves. So...there's that. Any confession obtained in which there's a chance the suspect made it out of fear is definitely dubious.
I'm an American and I"m jealous we don't have anything good like the Fifth Estate. I enjoyed the program but if I was there I would've asked the defense attorney, yes the attractive one, how many people who are guilty of crimes are on the streets free because of her? Any honest defense attorney will tell you there are murders, rapists, etc on the streets because of the good job they did. They should do an episode about that.
They have to do everything within their power to protect their clients. Defense attorneys keep the system accountable.
jack hamilton You have PBS Frontline, easily as good as The Fifth Estate and in some cases, better.
Getting a conviction just to clear a case is Not Good Police Work. PERIOD. There are two many innocent people in prison if there is only one person.
Shirley pilger not that much here in Canada...anyway....they..dont do longtime jail...
jack hamilton doesn’t it bother you that it is clearly entrapment? Burns would have been caught with careful police work.
We need more lawyers like her. She is amazing.
Very smart Crown attorney
NoFavours she’s a cold snake. Needs tranquilizers to sleep at night letting these criminals go free
@@juliadudkina9188 I agree. Amazing how people with throw away their moral compass for money.
Who else here after watching The Confession Tapes?
@2 beans 1 cream what app?
Netflix
Them asking that kid if his dad killed someone 😠😠😠
Simply...this is what happens when suspects are considered guilty until your arm is twisted to confession...right out of the middle ages.
There is no doubt in my mind that Atif Rafay murdered his own family, but it's always going to be dubious for police to go to such great lengths to impersonate criminals.
Not guilty
Shifty eyes at 24:35. Lying eyes can't hide the devil in this non human.
WOOOW. That guys so knows he's wrong. So wish he had the security/humility or lacked the arrogance to admit it
I thought the same exact thing, but the time stamp is a tad late. The beginning of that moment you reference is 24:23 and the eye roll is a few seconds earlier than you mention.
Funny how the undercover cop thinks cursing a lot will make him more believable.
This seems like the most unlikely way to convict someone of a crime, many people in bad situations would amit to something they haven't done to better their life. So sad to see how they talked to that child.
They don't care. Canada is a socialist country, it's all about image.
That defence attorney is extremely intelligent and a proper salt. 💥💣
I don't really hold it against the Police if it was a human life (or lives) that went for nothing, and the suspect did it with 80% certainty, maybe in such cases, the right kind of Mr. Big treatment will do. But using desperation of money to make someone confess to something they didn't even do is still sickening.
Mr. Big when used properly by thorough investigators is extremely effective.
@Hydra give examples; I can show a few that immediately fingered a man, and several that showed the man was innocent, both are quite useful. I can easily be wrong here.
Sebastian Burns: I’m one of the most intelligent people in the world
Law enforcement: actually, you’re not
🤣🤣🤣🤣
No one with a brain in their head believes these guys are innocent.
I do and I have a brain! Many many people admit to a crime they haven’t committed! Put your feet in their shoes I bet you wouldn’t last as long as they did!
The reason the sting “work” is cause they target ppl who are weak socially or ppl who are broke. Even if a person is intelligent they may still do unintelligent things if they are rewarded socially or economically.
How can law enforcement consider their self lawful or a justice system consider their self just, when they had any part, no matter how minute, in the interrogation of that child.
I speak english and French..would love to live in Canada for a while...even seeing all this cbc shows :)
Those punks offed the parents, no question about it. They weren't pretending to be tough, they were sincere in what they shared with the undercover team.
they will get out when they are old they are paying for their crimes
it sounds like they don't stop until they get a confession from the target....and interviewing that kid is just ridiculous honestly....
law enforcement, not justice
I’m not cool with them doing that to the 4 year old.
I agree
I hate to side with a criminal, but the technique seems like coercion
I was (am) surprised that the Supreme Court allowed the technique to continue. Close to entrapment, if not over the line.
Entrapment is when you induce someone to commit a crime. Mr Big is not entrapment.
What if the accused “confess” their innocence to ‘Mr. Big’?? (According to the rules of this game) that should exonerate the accused...RIGHT??!? Otherwise it’s judicial railroading..
This lady is wonderful
It's funny when the cops are confronted with their own crimes.
These two are blatantly guilty
The four year old boy should have been off limits, no excuse for that, or for framing people through intimidation and fear for their personal welfare. This is when the cops go way too far, like don't they want the real perpetrators?? Hmmm....
over zealous cop for sure, took advantage... but if the confessor admits details unknown to the public perhaps they are true confessions
Honestly,I Hate Defense Attorneys/Lawyers.They are" Not Kids".They're Murderer and Evil.
i had mr big convince a friend of mine i was a rat and needed taken out shot so he tried three times , he was on drugs i thought was hallucinating and stood by him . after his murder i youtubed mr big he kept talking about that wanted me dead i learned it was the police and the worst part no one beliefs me ....... who do you tell or ask for help
mr big is term used here in the uk. meaning a gangster.
That shows how their growth has been arrested in the criminal cop empire. So 1930s.
In the US we had or still have a group of officers going into low income parts of town and targeted young men
The officer would tell the story of how he was a drug currey and show off a fancy hiding place in the car
Then move on with a strong story of how he was not paid and looking for hard core gang members to help rob the place
Some of the so called hard core gang members could not get guns or so dumb the rounds would just fall through the gun when trying to load it
Or in one case if i am not wrong the police officer had to supply the weapons to the so called hard core gang members
At. Times we have to ask what is s crime
What is a criminal
What is first class police work
What is a molester
We need police and they need our support 24/7 but bad laws like bad officer's help no one and can destroy a life in the blink of an eye
When officers get it wrong it sad when officers cross the line its a diservice to all police
@@terriecotham1567 As an example,and there are plenty;cops in USA masters report is a good start.
It was used to excellent effect in Australia in the Daniel Morcombe case against Brett Cowan.
AT WHAT AGE?
@@angelstinson1862 13 yrs old, his body was found 8 yrs later and Brett Cowan lead Mr big (undercover detectives) to his body.
It works very well on some cases, but could very well lead to a lot of false confessions.
They didn't tell how they entice pedophiles, rapists,and terrorists, .
Mr Big may work with less experienced criminals. Seasoned ones would not speak about anything that could incriminate them- not even to their wives or husbands.
Excellent job.
The death penalty SHOULD be used in cases like the Mr. Big agent. If he seriously believes Andy's confession is "proof", then he is literally one of the stupidest human beings on Earth. I don't believe he is.The only logical conclusion I can come to based on the evidence is that he is simply an evil human being. Canada needs the death penalty for "people" like him. Intentionally ruining someone's life in order to look good/get a promotion is one of the few acts I think the death penalty should be used for. That guy is pure fucking evil...
Fancy! Tricking criminals into admitting their crimes. How awful. Maybe the victims would be a little more civilised were they allowed 10 minutes alone with them! (assuming they are still alive)!
I was horrified by the interrogation of the 4 year old. The cop was sitting there nodding his head yes at the kid while he asked him questions to try and make the child say yes. The whole thing was disturbing and obviously unethical to any sane person who was watching.
RCMP interrogating a child w/o a parent present. Really.
That mr big seemed so uncomfortable watching it and being questioned. Seems like power went to his head.
Do the cops have to give ALL OF THE VIDEO to the defense, even that at the first when they say they came in and found them dead, and then 14 hours later, when they had been given a number of beers?
I like the defense attorney. She's a very smart woman.
Glen Sebastian Burns could’ve been like
John F. Kennedy but instead he became the assassin.
A Life Sentence, should be what it says...You should be in for the rest of your life...
The defence attorney would try to convince you these boys lied. Who is she trying to kid, That was the Mr. B, the head of the crime syndicate and they are going to lie to him, tell him false tales.
It's scary how cops will defend bad police work. But people do it in every profession. But not every profession holds someone's life in the balance.
I think they said what they said because they wanted a way to get big in life , they were not getting jobs could not go to college and this guy seemed like an opportunity because they were actually giving THEM A CHANCE
Please play the song! Listen carefully
I think all the countries that have rights call this "entrapment".
It must take a weak mind to fall for this cop scam.
If they're under 25 years old it's easy. The younger a person is the easiest it is to entrap them.
Good for him of course he’s going to have to move from that small town because now he painted a target on his back with the local sheriff department but good for him.
How could you ever possibly smile again in your life after you slaughtered your family . I just don't get it .
They didn’t find it suspicious this guy wanted ask 101 questions on the murder
It's completely legal for the feds police any interrogations to lie as much as they want get it? They do
It's not just during interactions. I think that is one of the biggest reasons a lot of people don't trust the police anymore.
i hate this woman who keeps on depending the criminals.
They're not criminals. That's the point. I guess if you're ever convicted of a crime you didn't do, you won't get a lawyer then? See how pissed off you feel that you have to spend 2 years in jail before even going to trial for something you didn't do.
Marie is savage and brilliant. 🙌
thanks for the rcmp , good job
I was coerced like a mama jama when I was 15. I can see somebody giving a false confession they're relentless and horrible and its terrifying especially if you have never dealt with them before. I know theres lots and lots of criminals who say they didnt do it and all, but I bet the number of people who really are innocent is probably higher than we would all like to think... just 1 is too many, but what are ya gonna do? I dont have all the answers, but somethings should be changed for sure
Only in Canada do cops raise the crime rate out of boredom
I was assuming Cop is lying he will put his own mother in prison if it makes his career better
Well you assumed wrong.
Christine Fougere they went as far as staging a murder and questioning a 4 year old kid. I’m usually one to support cops but that’s disgusting, bloodhound behavior. Some Cops absolutely get way too power hungry and lose sight of what their true job is, being carrying out justice
Okay the police in Canada may have done some things to probably have someone raise an eyebrow about, but as far as that awful, bloody,heinous family annihilation that took place in the Rafay household, I just don't believe that anybody else but Atif & Sebastian perpetrated that crime!
YettaBonez agree
Absolutely.
You know all the details of the case to come to that conclusion?
Sketchy, but... yeah just sketchy
You can tell just by his voice that Atif Rafay got what he deserved in prison,
This was made by a "news" channel? You know you could hire people who have actually been journalism school?
Is "something" wrong with Winnipeg? Where is Kurt Winter in all of this mess?
They are sick. My stomach turns watching this...
Well I agree with u .. and not only cause u r hot .. but ...because .. ok I forgot .. it's cause u r hot
People who enter their homes only to find their entire family slaughtered don't talk about it a couple of months later, matter of factly...
They would probably be in therapy for the rest of their lives, trying to cope with that kind of horror...
And THAT is the issue...
The confession only confirms the light way in which they were dealing with what should be terribly devastating events...
did they skip the funeral? were they aware of it?
And they are sooooooooo expensive
A few other things I have to add about Mr.big or so called "Sting" operations, R.C.M.P police etcerta , they are there,
TO PROTECT AND SERVE, honestly,
hopefully , responsibliy ,
sincerety, integrity .
PEACE TO ALL
Good video
39:18 haha geez i'm in love with that woman
More cops on paid suspension then homicides in Toronto. When nypd says tpd is bad…
THIS IS SO DISGUSTINGLY WRONG. MR. Big sting can bring to light information and evidence from perpetrators that had been unkown otherwise. Its not just a confession...
36:18 the dark skinned fella in the jury flipping off with his finger ..... 😏
Criminals incriminating themselves...sounds good to me.
librazone If only it was that simple... People are deeper than that sirrrr
and innocent inciminating themselves too
Isn't embarrassing for that old wrinkled guy which shows he should have a lot of great experience in the job, making criminals confess their crimes, that a much younger lady in reality has much more experience than him?
NASTY.
The great RCMP at its best - I would be surprised if they even got one real killer with that kind of sting op. Hack, these are the same methods Gestapo or KGB characters us in popular fiction... doesn't it click? Just frame someone to meet with Stalin's quota, for that it is a valuable technique.
Neurological science!
Read about great people but also know about the bad.. - Jim Rohn
"Not get the confession. Seek the truth."
Hahahaha, yeah right. Spoken like a typical, lying, deceitful cop.
I’ve always thought they were guilty. But after watching their reactions when announced they are guilty. Makes me believe they are innocent. Oh Sabashian got them convicted. He was a smug very intelligent rich untitled punk. Now it’s tough for him without silver spoon. He has done lost his mind in prison.
So being a "smug punk" should get you put in jail? God. I hate people.
Kate Moss
Means u pretty much hate ur life. You need professional help if u think Sebastian burns should b free. HES a stone cold psychopath
Brave for these people to conclude Sebastian was "stone cold" as if they were 100% convinced he was guilty. Beside the Mr. Big Confessions, the state had no forensic evidence that will undoubtedly pin down these murders to these two dudes.
Besides, Sebastian eloquently explained how problematic the trial was (him being a law student in Cornell must really know something about the law) - considering how the retirable judge seemed to be only interested in hearing the state's case.
I don't think they did it, have you watched the confession tapes? I think Sebastian is a psychopath but simply lied about it... I saw on Reddit someone who claimed to know him personally and said Sebastian was quite narcissistic.
Another, book i have read several years ago, after the read, I do not feel well,
The book I read is ,
" LlFE WITH BILLY ", .
say what you will about the process, but they weren't talking to Brendan Dassey
And Burns was drinking? Good job PO PO
if anything the confession of Burns and Rafay lines up with evidence
if it was false it should not line up with the evidence timeline
That mr. Big bs aint about the truth. Its about confession. Doesnt matter if true or not
This program scares the living Jesus out of me. That means that a person who is desperate enough to need something and it's offered will probably go to jail if they are foolish enough to fall for this scheme. There is too much doubt. If I was a juror there is no way I'd buy this "confession" esp. the teenage boys--teenagers are constantly fronting and boasting... It's because their prefrontal cortex hasn't developed enough yet, they just don't see danger until it's way too late. Even a foolish or desperate adult could end up in some hot water.