I think the other failing of the DSM is that they so desperately want to steer clear from using the diagnostic criteria as a labelling tool for a mental disorder, and to only use it to justify a particular course of treatment. The reason I say this is because there are two pillars in diagnosing a disorder. For NPD, the person must meet 5/9 traits on the list, AND it must be causing them subjective distress/discomfort/dysfunction in their own lives. This approach disempowers the diagnosis because if the person meets the trait criteria but subjectively believes they are great and there is nothing wrong with them (which because of their delusions of grandeur they do), then by the DSM standards, they don't have a disorder even though their behaviour clearly indicates otherwise. It's like someone having cancer but because for some reason they don't care or don't believe they have it or believe something else external is causing the illness, the cancer suddenly doesn't exist. But this approach is all designed around this idea that we shouldn't label people. And yes, there's this commentary about 'well it doesn't matter whether you can diagnose them as a narcissist or not because they are still treating you badly', but it robs victims of the ability to be validated and understand that they are indeed with someone who is severely disordered. It's also the fact that if you eliminate the diagnosis, you lose that distinction between someone who is high in narcissistic traits (but has empathy and can be helped with some therapy) vs someone who is so pervasively disordered that there is absolutely no hope. In the end, the education from other psychs is ignore the diagnostic term and just focus on whether or not they have narcissistic traits, which also contributes to the overuse of the term 'narcissist', because now all we look for is the signs of some traits without appreciating the real complexity and distinctions of someone with full blown NPD. So ultimately, we have a useless diagnostic tool, and we have contradicting messaging around what is and what is not a narcissist. I agree with Grannon's approach that there is something internal that's not being picked up with the current diagnostic tool, which has made the diagnosis via the listed traits too flimsy.
That’s how the head of the DSM committee argued Trump does not suffer from NPD - he very unusually wrote a public article stating that because he (head of the committee) could see (with magical 🧙♂️ vision) that Trump didn’t suffer himself, he couldn’t have a PD. I’m not stating this to offer a political spin, or to be pro or anti Trump - I’m only offering this as an example pertinent to the video and this persons post that the DSM has some issues that need resolving. *Bows with humility , accepts death by pitchforks/bonfire*
I found it : “To qualify for narcissistic personality disorder, an individual’s selfish, unempathetic preening must be accompanied by significant distress or impairment. Trump certainly causes severe distress and impairment in others, but his narcissism doesn’t seem to affect him that way.” Now that’s ok. If that’s the rule, and it isn’t, even within the DSM this point is murky. The writer Dr Allen Frances The article www.statnews.com/2017/09/06/donald-trump-mental-illness-diagnosis/ To be clear I’m not disagreeing with Dr Francis or agreeing. Merely pointing out a rather thought provoking claim made in the article (if he isn’t an authority on the subject no one is) - if you display every single trait of NPD but you are not suffering internally you do NOT and can NOT be said to have NPD. Well then… how are these diagnoses taking place you might well ask?
Yup, if one is less than 18mths old and poorly nurtured. Narcissm is a useful albeit extreme tool for survival. Invariably required through having spent too much time alone as an infant. Otherwise it is a dysfunctional social tool to manipulate others deliberately. Not a single person is left intact, fulfilled or improved once a narcissist parasitical laches on to any person who is an empath. Narcissists will suck the life out of their victims covertly. @@zerodeconduite804
If you haven't been the victim of a narcissist, regardless of whether you call it traits or disorder , you know nothing about it. Only their victims understand what they are.
@@noellebridgman-wile7056 Wouldn't complete dismissal just imply a well established defense structure whereas denial a more vulnerable one? It's how your comment comes across to me but I also speak from personal experience of experiencing these states. Complete dismissal to me implies stronger Repression or stronger dissociation whereas denial is perhaps a more active mechanism.
Here we are in 2024 reconstructing the meaning of mental health as people with lived experiences not institutions with their own agenda. Thank you Richard for your sacrifice/traumas to rise above to understand and accept the truth to discredit lies. Impressive life purpose and mission.
I think one of the more important things I’ve learned from Richard is that dark triad people are often not communicating genuinely and they are just trying to maintain a reality. So trying to genuinely communicate with them is not the correct approach.
As someone married to one for 12 years, I concur!!! But he did reveal after awhile that his inner voice severely criticized and shamed himself. I can't remember how long it took him to reveal it.
@sara.e.1111 early in my relationship with my ex, he wrote in a letter to me something which I could not then decipher: "Nobody sees the Wizard, not nobody, not no how." It is an imprecise quote from the Wizard of Oz. My ex is rather a genius, and also a destructive vulnerable narcissist. He was a genius at mental torture done in private, too.
Wow, so they do tell on themselves to varying extents. I suppose to give us an option to accept it or leave. More recently when I asked him to treat me how he wanted me to treat him he admitted "I can't do that". More recently he's ready to go to couples counseling..which I know better. We have been living separate for over a year. I'm so obsessed with studying this personality type by now that I'd love to find a cure just to save everyone from the madness of it all.
@@sara.e.1111 it was the only clue he ever gave me in the many years of our relationship. We tried couple's counseling, or at least I did. His effort was absolutely in bad faith. He sold himself, painted me black, and co-opted the therapist in order to win, to vanquish me. You cannot win with these people. They are a scourge.
I think the most important thing in ourselves we need to focus on is our pity response to fake distress. We need to train ourselves to have empathy without pity, because that's how they bait us most of the time.
Because the DSM genuinely sucks. It is rooted in eugenics, misogyny, white supremacy and colonialism. I recommend The Power Threat Meaning Framework as an alternative. Free on Anna's Archive.
Richard's approach and criteria are so much more useful than the Dysfunctional Society Manifesto: -it isn't soft and absorbent -it chafes -it leaves one feeling unclean -and it doesn't FLUSH easily. The Insane Clowns Diary isn't much better. The Psychodynamic Diagnostic Manual (PDM2) is a much better resource for identifying and understanding the internal human experience and motivations behind ALL types of mental health adaptations, written and edited by professionals who AREN'T under contract to drug and insurance companies.
I guess how I would test for the internal part would be to see if they go into narcissistic-rage (or in general, have a childish reaction) when providing them with a truthful outlook on how things are - as opposed to their fantasy-based version of reality. Edit: my bad, I think Richard has the same approach I described. I really like the external criteria, really simple, really easy to see in another person. I think if someone clicks all the external boxes, you can safely assume this person is going to be trouble for you.
The way you put it starts to sound like the fictional “Voight-Kampf” test from Bladerunner - if they get very agitated when testing for empathy it’s likely they are a “replicant” - clinical difficulties emerge when they tend to kill the clinician upon discovery 😅
@@RICHARDGRANNON They aren’t talking about you RVG ;). You’re not even in the ring. It’s a shadow boxing 🥊 match between the commentator and their past trauma.
@brightstar4321 👏 Great analogy because that's exactly what it feels like. You can never knock them out but continue training, it keeps you on your toes and alert.
The absence of consciousness, lack of empathy or cognitive empathetic skills and no conscience, als 100% convinced of own integrity and master of feigning sanity. I directly feel the fog when they are near.
Exploitative in the covert-and-sanctimonious forms may not be of highly 'reportable' forms, as a caveat; guarded breaks from reality I agree with not knowing the criteria for psychotic; and sob/martyr stories are certainly common.
I reviewed the literature again this afternoon , it seems there is a pretty strong case for considering NPD via the old out of fashion model of Multiple Personality Disorder. Really interesting angle.
@@RICHARDGRANNON I appreciate your creative and fluid approach to such models:-it makes sense that a false reality would be a split reality, and there's the vacillation betw. grandiose and worthless/ earnest/sacrificial, etc. that is sometimes seen as I understand in the covert form. I view our diagnostic manuals as a more or less sensibly ordered mish-mash of variously observed emergent extremes of egoic and mental dysfunction presenting in the modern human being; often hard to extricate the typifying variables, yet there are often intuitive explanations-such as Gabor Maté's take on the roots of ADHD.
@@user-xn8sw8ec4v I know what you mean, and probably pretty much as far as the good it does you: the hoovering and dual relationship along with the dismissal of reality mentioned by another poster, @frankie555, go toward a Stockholm Syndrome, taking advantage of your compassion and lenience, perhaps having you invalidate your every fair warning to self about them. On the other hand loathing anyone does ourselves no good, and no one is rotten to the _very_ core-though it may be totally practical to steer clear of them loosely as such; you may gather your thoughts about your narc so as to clarify your position. But yes, there's duplicity to the point it can be hard to tell how much of it _they're_ bought into, or is deliberate/conscious or innocent/unintentional. That's the sheep's clothing part of the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing, recall the little mask slips.
Hi Richard, i really appreciate your work and your videos have helped me a lot. A lot of content on narcissists are usually done by women and its refreshing to get a male perspective of someone who overcame this abuse. It makes your content more relatable for me and i resonate with your fighter undertones. Im writing this comment in hopes that you will read it and consider a content suggestion. I wish there was a website or even a youtube video that i could potentially link to flying monkeys in hopes of giving them an eye opening moment of who they are talking to. So imagine a flying monkey is throwing abuse at you by proxy, and you can just link them a video or a set of videos explaining what a narcissist is and that they are being manipulated. You could link regular videos and try to convince them but I've never seen a video that speaks to a flying monkey instead of an abusee/abuser
There are people who are abused beyond belief and I am one of them. We who are part of this spectrum can hear someones trauma and then. Role play the person they would love to hear from in that moment of trauma.
Psychotic break can be measured by taking a key interest or obsession of them, then going along with it, and then question their knowledge, with sincerity. If their reaction emotionally does not fit, explicitly or implicitly, it hits the mark.
Love this revised definition. The 5/9 traits for diagnostic purposes is just so generic. Australia is currently grappling with a surge in intimate partner homicide and it frustrates me no end that in the national responses there is zero discussion of personality disorders or narcissism. Because I am yet to hear a story of a victim of domestic homicide who wasn’t in a controlling, abusive relationship that friends and family could not and did not understand.
To finish the thought - people are terrified of labelling others as a narcissist, but the additional criteria of exploitation and aggression really sharpen this language and give it more purpose.
Great comment. I've been laying the groundwork with my teenager as to what these relationships look like. Every parent should be aware of this and teach their kids. It will only stop at an individual level, with people saying 'no' to manipulative, sociopathic behaviour in their relationships.
My narcissist would always be waiting for me. I am everything to them i realized. Yet interacting with them will always end up in their negative jealousy.
I love how IFS therapy steers away from any pathology and yet is the most effective therapeutic tool I've encountered so far - and it has been far in my 58 years on this earth. I also love how it is programmed to be completely independent from a therapist. They may support you in learning the model in the beginning, but its goal is to use your own Self-energy to heal.
I love your idea that narcissists engage in a mutual fantasy world - speaking about couples or adults,I’m assuming. In the case of parents and children, it’s the parent’s fantasy and the child is supposed to participate or they become the bad object.
I got my associates, bachelors, masters, and half my doc degree in psych (Southern California no less) and let me tell you, this field perpetuates and breeds mental disorder. It’s like everyone is patient zero and is only there to figure out and heal themselves. It doesn’t help that it’s a field run by insurance & left-wingers. Leaving was the best decision of my life. I’ve learned 100x more practical and useful information on RUclips.
@ RICHARD GRANNON please see this 🙏🏾I just went through a terrible breakup with a narcissist multiple forms of abuse I am 26 I live alone in a state separate from my immediately family. I’ve never been through this before, I just subscribed I get the sense you do not do consults but if I can have a chance to meet you on video that would mean the world to me. Thank you for all you do you’ve touched my heart
This video is much more helpful than the other videos I have watched that just repeat the published diagnostic criteria or use hyperbolic examples of narcissistic behavior. Thank you. I would like to hear more about people who demonstrate narcissism and have had a split with reality but one that is religious or spiritual in nature. God tells them to do things that don't make sense, but it is fairly benign stuff (not serial murder type stuff.) Maybe you have something already in one of your other videos. I will look.
1:30 Sort the wheat from the chaff I could say I got cemented a little in this "personality disorder" bluff. It was a time of my life I fell into many influences online (millions of people became immersed in this RUclips led self-education model - I am hearing people talk about this stuff casually. Grateful I know what they are talking about). I learned something about cultism, and my conditions.
You're a good guy Richard! I'm very wary of Mr Vaknin, after all, he IS a nastissist!! Don't think many people will empathise with him, somehow. Keep going!!x
When i finally broke away from her the dreams of Demons i had where so vivid. A Demon on a white horse who had me and my Dog chained to its wrist. Strangest dream i have ever had
It would be interesting to hear your thoughts and reflections on Nicholas Rossi (Arthur Knight) and his wife Miranda Knight who seems whole heartedly to believe his claims not to be Nicholas Rossi.
What if it’s fake empathy? Using someone’s vulnerability to make them appear that they are the savior.. only for their own needs of getting fulfilled ???? Can you speak about that? So many twists with this one. But they can put on an empathetic fake role to get what they need.
Richard, I just started watching your videos, but do you ever talk about the spiritual side of this topic and how a narcissist is evil and that you need to cross over to the other side at this point
Richard i think you would enjoy a book by Phillip K Dick called 'Clans of Alphane Moon' , as the title suggests it is a 'science fiction' novel but but that is simply a metaphor for the author to explore the possibility of a parallel world where each personality disorder lived as a nation and they have to fight for territory on this fantasy world, ....... the book starts with a summit between the representatives of each personality disorder 'nation' , the Manics, the 'Heebs' (hebephrenic), etc all have an ambassador , the manics assume they will win of course...
The traditional characterization of "Narcissism" is completely wrong, as it focuses on the wrong principle of the mythological namesake individual. What this means is that the absence of "Narcissism" is the mental illness and not the presence. The reason for this most basic and fundamental error is quite easily explained, which is founded in the "Three Rs Model of Education, which not only introduces this error but is also responsible for perpetuating it and therefore, handing it down through subsequent generations of academics.
Another problem with the DSM's narcissism criteria is that it doesn't account for childhood trauma - yet this is such a significant, even causal aspect of the disorder. I believe it shows great ignorance (of the literature) to omit consideration of early trauma.
my sons grlfrnd has after 2 yrs living together had him charged with raping her????? and she is surly trying to destroy him....I hope she reaps consequences for this spiteful andcontrived with another person act the truth be told,,,oh not one time 4 times since they started going together I dont get how the police just go ahead and lay charges he loved her and would never hurt her she just wants to destroy him?
Your alternative diagnostic criteria completely lack any reliable practicality and are therefore absolutely useless. You said it yourself in the beginning: 'How you would test for this? I don't know yet'. Then you go on describing certain characteristics, you 'want/need to see' in someone to diagnose npd. But you're completely ignoring the absolute impossibility to ascertain such characteristics, in a clinical setting, because you would have to solely rely on the information a narcissist is willing/able to give you. Their whole persona is an act and they're not even aware of it themselves. They think they're empathic, they 'know' how to behave empathic and you would probably think they are, while they have literally never even begun to understand what true empathy even is! The example of a 'want to see' at 04:17 or so is especially ridiculous in my opinion. Good look finding smth like that out from simply talking to a stranger with npd, lmao. I mean it's in the nature of their disorder that they would never allow to give you the amount of insight needed to come to such a clonclusion. If you 'know' and observe them for years, you might become able to connect dots and recognize patterns, which point to your criteria, but I highly doubt you can achieve this within the frame of standard psychological evaluation. The DSM is surely not perfect, but it provides VERIFIABLE criteria to narrow it very much down. No one ever claimed, they represent a full depiction of a disorder. It lists characteristical traits that are factually indeed present in patients and thus serve as a very useful guideline. Most importantly though, and in stark contrast to what you are offering, someone with the ability to skillfully question a patient, can actually test for these traits to get a better picture of the person and use the resulting information in the further course of evaluation, according to quality literature.
You’re confusing observable “traits” with a less observable “personality disorder” which is a “mental illness “ (see other commenters distinctions on this topic elsewhere under this video). That error is absolutely not your fault, the DSM criteria unintentionally encourage this misconception - what else could a reasonable person conclude? The gold standard for clinical diagnosis is a list of 9 equally weighted and observable behaviours, right? So you, logically, conclude they value the observed and eschew the hidden as impossible to penetrate and simply unknown. It’s a mistake (as I’ll show later) , but I get how you got there. But then you go further: You claim it’s “ridiculous” and “impossible” to test for what a patient doesn’t want you to see and yet I must tell you : such psychiatric tests do already exist. And have a high degree of replicability and reliability. Which means only one of two things : 1. You are entirely right and these tests are useless. Or 2. your assertion might be wrong. These are things anyone can look up for themselves for the correct answer. I, myself, for all my skepticism for the institution of psychiatry , know that “difficult” diagnosis is neither “impossible” or “ridiculous” and that clinicians do indeed already have the means to do exactly this. That’s the testing side of it (by the way, me saying “I don’t know how to do this” doesn’t imply in any way that “it can’t be done” - it’s just an expression of my personal ignorance, I don’t study test design). There is another minor flaw in the line of reasoning you used : that because narcissists don’t want to reveal themselves they will never be revealed. The simplest counter to that would be to ask “then how is it a clinical entity?”. It’s a grave mistake to overestimate narcissistic psychopaths capacity for deception and underestimate their capacity for being naive, impulsive, vain and , well, foolish. They so often “overplay their hand” it could be said to be a part of the disorder. A feature not a bug. Remember it’s an infantile disorder and a self destructive one. Many a narcissistic psychopath has brought about their own destruction simply by bragging. Ps I wasn’t clear in this video but my point about the DSM traits is they are absolutely NOT verifiable outside of culture bound value judgements. You are simply wrong to suggest they are, and that’s the shared opinion of psychiatrists and clinicians across the globe. How would you propose we clinically verify, for example “a haughty demeanour”? By the way the APA are perfectly well aware of these criticisms that I (and many others more qualified than myself have made) which is why it was due to be removed from the DSM 5 published in 2013 altogether! Please read : “In a 2012 literature review about NPD, the researchers concluded that narcissistic personality disorder "shows nosological inconsistency, and that its consideration as a trait domain needed further research would be strongly beneficial to the field."[138] In a 2018 latent structure analysis, results suggested that the DSM-5 NPD criteria fail to distinguish some aspects of narcissism relevant to diagnosis of NPD and subclinical narcissism.” In other words : “Are we describing a PD or just narc traits? These criteria suck.” And Going back to the DSM 4 published in 2000 “The definition of NPD was criticised by clinicians as inadequately describing the range and complexity of the personality disorder that is NPD. That it is excessively focused upon "the narcissistic individual's external, symptomatic, or social interpersonal patterns - at the expense of ... internal complexity and individual suffering", which reduced the clinical utility of the NPD definition”. You simply can NOT have a diagnostic criteria that lists observable patterns of behaviour / traits and ignores their internal reality for a PD. That’s just not adequate.
The scientific method to which psychological research aspires requires an artifical contrivance whereby whatever is under study is cleaved away from its full context and placed in a metaphor of that context or completely outside that context. This yields some insight but as we are learning more and more often, that contrivance does not provide for solid ground from which to extrapolate general principles.
The term 'Narcissism' misleads the layman to assume that physically beautiful people are the only people that can become narcissists because Narcissus was obsessed with his own beauty while he lacked any of the other traits of narcissism, the dishonest, manipulative, competitive, status seeking, transactional stuff which is what makes such people toxic
Развлечения
I think the other failing of the DSM is that they so desperately want to steer clear from using the diagnostic criteria as a labelling tool for a mental disorder, and to only use it to justify a particular course of treatment. The reason I say this is because there are two pillars in diagnosing a disorder. For NPD, the person must meet 5/9 traits on the list, AND it must be causing them subjective distress/discomfort/dysfunction in their own lives. This approach disempowers the diagnosis because if the person meets the trait criteria but subjectively believes they are great and there is nothing wrong with them (which because of their delusions of grandeur they do), then by the DSM standards, they don't have a disorder even though their behaviour clearly indicates otherwise. It's like someone having cancer but because for some reason they don't care or don't believe they have it or believe something else external is causing the illness, the cancer suddenly doesn't exist. But this approach is all designed around this idea that we shouldn't label people. And yes, there's this commentary about 'well it doesn't matter whether you can diagnose them as a narcissist or not because they are still treating you badly', but it robs victims of the ability to be validated and understand that they are indeed with someone who is severely disordered. It's also the fact that if you eliminate the diagnosis, you lose that distinction between someone who is high in narcissistic traits (but has empathy and can be helped with some therapy) vs someone who is so pervasively disordered that there is absolutely no hope. In the end, the education from other psychs is ignore the diagnostic term and just focus on whether or not they have narcissistic traits, which also contributes to the overuse of the term 'narcissist', because now all we look for is the signs of some traits without appreciating the real complexity and distinctions of someone with full blown NPD. So ultimately, we have a useless diagnostic tool, and we have contradicting messaging around what is and what is not a narcissist. I agree with Grannon's approach that there is something internal that's not being picked up with the current diagnostic tool, which has made the diagnosis via the listed traits too flimsy.
That’s how the head of the DSM committee argued Trump does not suffer from NPD - he very unusually wrote a public article stating that because he (head of the committee) could see (with magical 🧙♂️ vision) that Trump didn’t suffer himself, he couldn’t have a PD.
I’m not stating this to offer a political spin, or to be pro or anti Trump - I’m only offering this as an example pertinent to the video and this persons post that the DSM has some issues that need resolving.
*Bows with humility , accepts death by pitchforks/bonfire*
I found it : “To qualify for narcissistic personality disorder, an individual’s selfish, unempathetic preening must be accompanied by significant distress or impairment. Trump certainly causes severe distress and impairment in others, but his narcissism doesn’t seem to affect him that way.”
Now that’s ok. If that’s the rule, and it isn’t, even within the DSM this point is murky.
The writer Dr Allen Frances
The article www.statnews.com/2017/09/06/donald-trump-mental-illness-diagnosis/
To be clear I’m not disagreeing with Dr Francis or agreeing. Merely pointing out a rather thought provoking claim made in the article (if he isn’t an authority on the subject no one is) - if you display every single trait of NPD but you are not suffering internally you do NOT and can NOT be said to have NPD.
Well then… how are these diagnoses taking place you might well ask?
In my haste Liam, I didn’t acknowledge that I agree with everything you wrote.
There's a 'healthy' narcissism. No healthy depression.
Yup, if one is less than 18mths old and poorly nurtured. Narcissm is a useful albeit extreme tool for survival. Invariably required through having spent too much time alone as an infant.
Otherwise it is a dysfunctional social tool to manipulate others deliberately.
Not a single person is left intact, fulfilled or improved once a narcissist parasitical laches on to any person who is an empath. Narcissists will suck the life out of their victims covertly.
@@zerodeconduite804
If you haven't been the victim of a narcissist, regardless of whether you call it traits or disorder , you know nothing about it. Only their victims understand what they are.
Instead of "denial" I'd use the word "dismissal".
They dismiss reality.
Nailed it. Denial implies they might even consider the possibility. Instead, they reject it outright without consideration and unflinching confidence.
@@noellebridgman-wile7056
Wouldn't complete dismissal just imply a well established defense structure whereas denial a more vulnerable one? It's how your comment comes across to me but I also speak from personal experience of experiencing these states.
Complete dismissal to me implies stronger Repression or stronger dissociation whereas denial is perhaps a more active mechanism.
Here we are in 2024 reconstructing the meaning of mental health as people with lived experiences not institutions with their own agenda. Thank you Richard for your sacrifice/traumas to rise above to understand and accept the truth to discredit lies. Impressive life purpose and mission.
I think one of the more important things I’ve learned from Richard is that dark triad people are often not communicating genuinely and they are just trying to maintain a reality. So trying to genuinely communicate with them is not the correct approach.
As someone married to one for 12 years, I concur!!! But he did reveal after awhile that his inner voice severely criticized and shamed himself. I can't remember how long it took him to reveal it.
@sara.e.1111 early in my relationship with my ex, he wrote in a letter to me something which I could not then decipher: "Nobody sees the Wizard, not nobody, not no how." It is an imprecise quote from the Wizard of Oz. My ex is rather a genius, and also a destructive vulnerable narcissist. He was a genius at mental torture done in private, too.
Wow, so they do tell on themselves to varying extents. I suppose to give us an option to accept it or leave. More recently when I asked him to treat me how he wanted me to treat him he admitted "I can't do that". More recently he's ready to go to couples counseling..which I know better. We have been living separate for over a year. I'm so obsessed with studying this personality type by now that I'd love to find a cure just to save everyone from the madness of it all.
@@sara.e.1111 it was the only clue he ever gave me in the many years of our relationship. We tried couple's counseling, or at least I did. His effort was absolutely in bad faith. He sold himself, painted me black, and co-opted the therapist in order to win, to vanquish me. You cannot win with these people. They are a scourge.
I think the most important thing in ourselves we need to focus on is our pity response to fake distress. We need to train ourselves to have empathy without pity, because that's how they bait us most of the time.
Richard's diagnostics are way better explained. l lived with one narc for 20 years. This info is all truth and correct.❤ 💪
Because the DSM genuinely sucks. It is rooted in eugenics, misogyny, white supremacy and colonialism.
I recommend The Power Threat Meaning Framework as an alternative. Free on Anna's Archive.
Richard's approach and criteria are so much more useful than the Dysfunctional Society Manifesto:
-it isn't soft and absorbent
-it chafes
-it leaves one feeling unclean
-and it doesn't FLUSH easily.
The Insane Clowns Diary isn't much better. The Psychodynamic Diagnostic Manual (PDM2) is a much better resource for identifying and understanding the internal human experience and motivations behind ALL types of mental health adaptations, written and edited by professionals who AREN'T under contract to drug and insurance companies.
Thankyou 😅😅
I guess how I would test for the internal part would be to see if they go into narcissistic-rage (or in general, have a childish reaction) when providing them with a truthful outlook on how things are - as opposed to their fantasy-based version of reality. Edit: my bad, I think Richard has the same approach I described.
I really like the external criteria, really simple, really easy to see in another person. I think if someone clicks all the external boxes, you can safely assume this person is going to be trouble for you.
The way you put it starts to sound like the fictional “Voight-Kampf” test from Bladerunner - if they get very agitated when testing for empathy it’s likely they are a “replicant” - clinical difficulties emerge when they tend to kill the clinician upon discovery 😅
His cruel words , filthy accusations, and gaslighting when you try to defend yourself that broke me. Ice water in his veins.
I’m assuming “he” is the narc.
Can you edit this to be clear you aren’t referring to the chap in the video please ? 😅 you just say “him”? Who him? He who?
@@RICHARDGRANNON They aren’t talking about you RVG ;). You’re not even in the ring. It’s a shadow boxing 🥊 match between the commentator and their past trauma.
@brightstar4321 👏 Great analogy because that's exactly what it feels like. You can never knock them out but continue training, it keeps you on your toes and alert.
@@cancer_moonchild Thank you 🙏 for your kindness and acknowledgment.
The absence of consciousness, lack of empathy or cognitive empathetic skills and no conscience, als 100% convinced of own integrity and master of feigning sanity. I directly feel the fog when they are near.
It has to be sinister and deliberately manipulative...THAT is also true evidence of narcissism.
That just sounds like (and I'm not that familiar) malignant.
I recognize my traits and where they stem from and vulnerable variation isn't like that.
And exploitative. Yes
I Love your work Richard
Exploitative in the covert-and-sanctimonious forms may not be of highly 'reportable' forms, as a caveat; guarded breaks from reality I agree with not knowing the criteria for psychotic; and sob/martyr stories are certainly common.
I reviewed the literature again this afternoon , it seems there is a pretty strong case for considering NPD via the old out of fashion model of Multiple Personality Disorder. Really interesting angle.
@@RICHARDGRANNON I appreciate your creative and fluid approach to such models:-it makes sense that a false reality would be a split reality, and there's the vacillation betw. grandiose and worthless/ earnest/sacrificial, etc. that is sometimes seen as I understand in the covert form. I view our diagnostic manuals as a more or less sensibly ordered mish-mash of variously observed emergent extremes of egoic and mental dysfunction presenting in the modern human being; often hard to extricate the typifying variables, yet there are often intuitive explanations-such as Gabor Maté's take on the roots of ADHD.
Always have the feeling of dealing with Dr. Jekill and Mr. Hide.
Still feel sorry for him.
Is it sympathy for the devil?
@@user-xn8sw8ec4v I know what you mean, and probably pretty much as far as the good it does you: the hoovering and dual relationship along with the dismissal of reality mentioned by another poster, @frankie555, go toward a Stockholm Syndrome, taking advantage of your compassion and lenience, perhaps having you invalidate your every fair warning to self about them.
On the other hand loathing anyone does ourselves no good, and no one is rotten to the _very_ core-though it may be totally practical to steer clear of them loosely as such; you may gather your thoughts about your narc so as to clarify your position.
But yes, there's duplicity to the point it can be hard to tell how much of it _they're_ bought into, or is deliberate/conscious or innocent/unintentional. That's the sheep's clothing part of the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing, recall the little mask slips.
i wouldn’t say it gets you in trouble fine sir, i’d say it gets you 5 gold stars.!⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
You had me at 0:33 😂❤ Thanks Richard
Richard Grannon, I just found your videos on this subject tonight. I thank you for sharing your information with everyone. It helps me so much!
Hi Richard, i really appreciate your work and your videos have helped me a lot. A lot of content on narcissists are usually done by women and its refreshing to get a male perspective of someone who overcame this abuse. It makes your content more relatable for me and i resonate with your fighter undertones. Im writing this comment in hopes that you will read it and consider a content suggestion. I wish there was a website or even a youtube video that i could potentially link to flying monkeys in hopes of giving them an eye opening moment of who they are talking to. So imagine a flying monkey is throwing abuse at you by proxy, and you can just link them a video or a set of videos explaining what a narcissist is and that they are being manipulated. You could link regular videos and try to convince them but I've never seen a video that speaks to a flying monkey instead of an abusee/abuser
There are people who are abused beyond belief and I am one of them. We who are part of this spectrum can hear someones trauma and then. Role play the person they would love to hear from in that moment of trauma.
Psychotic break can be measured by taking a key interest or obsession of them, then going along with it, and then question their knowledge, with sincerity. If their reaction emotionally does not fit, explicitly or implicitly, it hits the mark.
Awful manipulate.
Your showing yourself.
It was about time for all that to be told. Excellent approach! 🥂
Love this revised definition. The 5/9 traits for diagnostic purposes is just so generic.
Australia is currently grappling with a surge in intimate partner homicide and it frustrates me no end that in the national responses there is zero discussion of personality disorders or narcissism. Because I am yet to hear a story of a victim of domestic homicide who wasn’t in a controlling, abusive relationship that friends and family could not and did not understand.
To finish the thought - people are terrified of labelling others as a narcissist, but the additional criteria of exploitation and aggression really sharpen this language and give it more purpose.
Great comment. I've been laying the groundwork with my teenager as to what these relationships look like. Every parent should be aware of this and teach their kids. It will only stop at an individual level, with people saying 'no' to manipulative, sociopathic behaviour in their relationships.
@@MrDblStoptotally totally agree with you. I was 35 before I even knew what those terms meant. It’s too late by then!
Good morning/day/evening Richard🌱
You forgot night
You are spot on
My narcissist would always be waiting for me. I am everything to them i realized. Yet interacting with them will always end up in their negative jealousy.
I don’t understand why she treated her ex so well for 7 years compared to me, why did she do this to me and not him?
I love how IFS therapy steers away from any pathology and yet is the most effective therapeutic tool I've encountered so far - and it has been far in my 58 years on this earth. I also love how it is programmed to be completely independent from a therapist. They may support you in learning the model in the beginning, but its goal is to use your own Self-energy to heal.
I love your idea that narcissists engage in a mutual fantasy world - speaking about couples or adults,I’m assuming. In the case of parents and children, it’s the parent’s fantasy and the child is supposed to participate or they become the bad object.
I got my associates, bachelors, masters, and half my doc degree in psych (Southern California no less) and let me tell you, this field perpetuates and breeds mental disorder. It’s like everyone is patient zero and is only there to figure out and heal themselves. It doesn’t help that it’s a field run by insurance & left-wingers. Leaving was the best decision of my life. I’ve learned 100x more practical and useful information on RUclips.
@ RICHARD GRANNON please see this 🙏🏾I just went through a terrible breakup with a narcissist multiple forms of abuse I am 26 I live alone in a state separate from my immediately family. I’ve never been through this before, I just subscribed I get the sense you do not do consults but if I can have a chance to meet you on video that would mean the world to me. Thank you for all you do you’ve touched my heart
This video is much more helpful than the other videos I have watched that just repeat the published diagnostic criteria or use hyperbolic examples of narcissistic behavior. Thank you. I would like to hear more about people who demonstrate narcissism and have had a split with reality but one that is religious or spiritual in nature. God tells them to do things that don't make sense, but it is fairly benign stuff (not serial murder type stuff.) Maybe you have something already in one of your other videos. I will look.
1:30
Sort the wheat from the chaff
I could say I got cemented a little in this "personality disorder" bluff. It was a time of my life I fell into many influences online (millions of people became immersed in this RUclips led self-education model - I am hearing people talk about this stuff casually. Grateful I know what they are talking about).
I learned something about cultism, and my conditions.
You're a good guy Richard! I'm very wary of Mr Vaknin, after all, he IS a nastissist!! Don't think many people will empathise with him, somehow. Keep going!!x
Fantastic
When i finally broke away from her the dreams of Demons i had where so vivid. A Demon on a white horse who had me and my Dog chained to its wrist. Strangest dream i have ever had
Totally agree.
It would be interesting to hear your thoughts and reflections on Nicholas Rossi (Arthur Knight) and his wife Miranda Knight who seems whole heartedly to believe his claims not to be Nicholas Rossi.
I really need your help. The turn of events of the last 24 hrs has pushed me to the brink. I can’t take anymore and I’ve got no one to turn to
Can you also do video’s about borderline maybe?
Добрый вечер, Ричард. Вы больше не ведёте канал для русских людей? Нам бы очень хотелось посмотреть все ваши видео в переводе.
We wish see u in dobi UAE
Late night anxiety:/
What if it’s fake empathy? Using someone’s vulnerability to make them appear that they are the savior.. only for their own needs of getting fulfilled ????
Can you speak about that? So many twists with this one. But they can put on an empathetic fake role to get what they need.
Richard, I just started watching your videos, but do you ever talk about the spiritual side of this topic and how a narcissist is evil and that you need to cross over to the other side at this point
Muricans
Richard i think you would enjoy a book by Phillip K Dick called 'Clans of Alphane Moon' , as the title suggests it is a 'science fiction' novel but but that is simply a metaphor for the author to explore the possibility of a parallel world where each personality disorder lived as a nation and they have to fight for territory on this fantasy world, ....... the book starts with a summit between the representatives of each personality disorder 'nation' , the Manics, the 'Heebs' (hebephrenic), etc all have an ambassador , the manics assume they will win of course...
Victims of narcissistic abuse have plenty of sob stories
The traditional characterization of "Narcissism" is completely wrong, as it focuses on the wrong principle of the mythological namesake individual. What this means is that the absence of "Narcissism" is the mental illness and not the presence. The reason for this most basic and fundamental error is quite easily explained, which is founded in the "Three Rs Model of Education, which not only introduces this error but is also responsible for perpetuating it and therefore, handing it down through subsequent generations of academics.
What was the study about vulnerable murderers?
DSM should be banned.
Merci Richard! Grand! (i Hear JIM CARrEy with Morgan FREEEMAN in Bruce almighty: (in fr) Graaaaand! x'D)
NON! Time to say the big no. 💫💥💫🕳☯✨🙏🙏🙏✊🤞✌💨🤟🤟🤟
Can a Narcissist get help to change or is it too late?
Another problem with the DSM's narcissism criteria is that it doesn't account for childhood trauma - yet this is such a significant, even causal aspect of the disorder. I believe it shows great ignorance (of the literature) to omit consideration of early trauma.
Nor does trauma informed research discuss how they corroborate self reported trauma.
Why isn’t there a licensed mental health pro tag on this? I thought he did coaching and had a degree in psych?
my sons grlfrnd has after 2 yrs living together had him charged with raping her????? and she is surly trying to destroy him....I hope she reaps consequences for this spiteful andcontrived with another person act the truth be told,,,oh not one time 4 times since they started going together I dont get how the police just go ahead and lay charges he loved her and would never hurt her she just wants to destroy him?
Oh boy, isn't that the truth
Fg
Your alternative diagnostic criteria completely lack any reliable practicality and are therefore absolutely useless. You said it yourself in the beginning: 'How you would test for this? I don't know yet'.
Then you go on describing certain characteristics, you 'want/need to see' in someone to diagnose npd. But you're completely ignoring the absolute impossibility to ascertain such characteristics, in a clinical setting, because you would have to solely rely on the information a narcissist is willing/able to give you. Their whole persona is an act and they're not even aware of it themselves. They think they're empathic, they 'know' how to behave empathic and you would probably think they are, while they have literally never even begun to understand what true empathy even is!
The example of a 'want to see' at 04:17 or so is especially ridiculous in my opinion. Good look finding smth like that out from simply talking to a stranger with npd, lmao. I mean it's in the nature of their disorder that they would never allow to give you the amount of insight needed to come to such a clonclusion.
If you 'know' and observe them for years, you might become able to connect dots and recognize patterns, which point to your criteria, but I highly doubt you can achieve this within the frame of standard psychological evaluation.
The DSM is surely not perfect, but it provides VERIFIABLE criteria to narrow it very much down. No one ever claimed, they represent a full depiction of a disorder. It lists characteristical traits that are factually indeed present in patients and thus serve as a very useful guideline.
Most importantly though, and in stark contrast to what you are offering, someone with the ability to skillfully question a patient, can actually test for these traits to get a better picture of the person and use the resulting information in the further course of evaluation, according to quality literature.
You’re confusing observable “traits” with a less observable “personality disorder” which is a “mental illness “ (see other commenters distinctions on this topic elsewhere under this video).
That error is absolutely not your fault, the DSM criteria unintentionally encourage this misconception - what else could a reasonable person conclude?
The gold standard for clinical diagnosis is a list of 9 equally weighted and observable behaviours, right?
So you, logically, conclude they value the observed and eschew the hidden as impossible to penetrate and simply unknown. It’s a mistake (as I’ll show later) , but I get how you got there.
But then you go further:
You claim it’s “ridiculous” and “impossible” to test for what a patient doesn’t want you to see and yet I must tell you : such psychiatric tests do already exist.
And have a high degree of replicability and reliability.
Which means only one of two things : 1. You are entirely right and these tests are useless.
Or 2. your assertion might be wrong.
These are things anyone can look up for themselves for the correct answer.
I, myself, for all my skepticism for the institution of psychiatry , know that “difficult” diagnosis is neither “impossible” or “ridiculous” and that clinicians do indeed already have the means to do exactly this.
That’s the testing side of it (by the way, me saying “I don’t know how to do this” doesn’t imply in any way that “it can’t be done” - it’s just an expression of my personal ignorance, I don’t study test design).
There is another minor flaw in the line of reasoning you used : that because narcissists don’t want to reveal themselves they will never be revealed.
The simplest counter to that would be to ask “then how is it a clinical entity?”.
It’s a grave mistake to overestimate narcissistic psychopaths capacity for deception and underestimate their capacity for being naive, impulsive, vain and , well, foolish.
They so often “overplay their hand” it could be said to be a part of the disorder. A feature not a bug.
Remember it’s an infantile disorder and a self destructive one. Many a narcissistic psychopath has brought about their own destruction simply by bragging.
Ps I wasn’t clear in this video but my point about the DSM traits is they are absolutely NOT verifiable outside of culture bound value judgements. You are simply wrong to suggest they are, and that’s the shared opinion of psychiatrists and clinicians across the globe.
How would you propose we clinically verify, for example “a haughty demeanour”?
By the way the APA are perfectly well aware of these criticisms that I (and many others more qualified than myself have made) which is why it was due to be removed from the DSM 5 published in 2013 altogether!
Please read :
“In a 2012 literature review about NPD, the researchers concluded that narcissistic personality disorder "shows nosological inconsistency, and that its consideration as a trait domain needed further research would be strongly beneficial to the field."[138] In a 2018 latent structure analysis, results suggested that the DSM-5 NPD criteria fail to distinguish some aspects of narcissism relevant to diagnosis of NPD and subclinical narcissism.”
In other words : “Are we describing a PD or just narc traits? These criteria suck.”
And
Going back to the DSM 4 published in 2000
“The definition of NPD was criticised by clinicians as inadequately describing the range and complexity of the personality disorder that is NPD. That it is excessively focused upon "the narcissistic individual's external, symptomatic, or social interpersonal patterns - at the expense of ... internal complexity and individual suffering", which reduced the clinical utility of the NPD definition”.
You simply can NOT have a diagnostic criteria that lists observable patterns of behaviour / traits and ignores their internal reality for a PD.
That’s just not adequate.
The scientific method to which psychological research aspires requires an artifical contrivance whereby whatever is under study is cleaved away from its full context and placed in a metaphor of that context or completely outside that context. This yields some insight but as we are learning more and more often, that contrivance does not provide for solid ground from which to extrapolate general principles.
Bulllllsh 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Why? I‘m curious!
The term 'Narcissism' misleads the layman to assume that physically beautiful people are the only people that can become narcissists because Narcissus was obsessed with his own beauty while he lacked any of the other traits of narcissism, the dishonest, manipulative, competitive, status seeking, transactional stuff which is what makes such people toxic
The DSM criteria for NPD sounds like your average neurotypical Westerner. Did I say that? OOPS!🫢
Not only westerners….the biggest victims right now are not only westerners….
correct, unfortunately. And it's spreading
Sadly, and I live here 🤢
Which is a result of no respect to humanity moreover towards the Creator
Not only westerners… the biggest victims right now are somewhere else.