8:14 Didn’t they try this with Windows Phone, and it (obviously) didn’t work? And once that initial financial incentive is gone, bugs in ported software don’t get fixed. New versions aren’t ported. I don’t think this is an adequate solution to this problem.
I've ordered one to support the porting of our application to ARM. Starting on x64, the application already runs on M1 and Linux on ARM ... but we waited until there was proper support from Microsoft with VS 2022 and this hardware to develop and debug NATIVELY on ARM. Native development is critically important to (a) efficient workflow for developers using the actual device for the port and (b) confidence that we can debug real-world problems on the actual hardware. It is a pity that Microsoft didn't get going with this more quickly ... but better that they follow along behind Apple than give up and don't try. x64 will live on for a long long time, but ARM will become increasingly relevant, even in the Windows world.
Volterra wasn't meant to be a Mac mini competitor, it was meant to be a device that helps Windows catch up with the M1/M2 software. It's upto QUALCOMM to compete with the Apple's M1/2. I'm curious what the Surface team is doing with the Studio 3 since The Studio is the only product that would compete with the Mac mini.
I'm using Windows 11 ARM laptop rn and it actually beats the crap out of my previous i5. Intel HD Graphics can't compete with Adreno. Iinm, 8cx gen 3 is around 80% of M1 performance so am not sure why you keep saying it can't compete with Apple. And that only uses Cortex X1 core. We have Cortex X3, Nuvia cores and Immortalis G715 coming.
If Microsoft was to make their own processors, this would discourage the other hardware producers, they should rather parthmer with ARM for the design of a new core that works better.
If MS can make a Windows Arm Device that everyone wants, I mean lining up at the door to buy it, then the apps will come. MS should have gone all in and made a true competitor to Apples M-Series chips, as it stands I think Woa is a dead end.
Microsoft has no incentive to. For Apple, Intel stagnation was holding back their design team with what they wanted to make, a thin but powerful laptop that excels at video and audio production. They were tired of paying Intel royalties for minuscule updates each year. So they went all in with ARM because they had no other choice as x86 landscape had been stagnant for so long. For Microsoft, they are only interested in selling Windows. They don’t care what it runs on. Battery life is not a MS issue. It’s the OEM’s problem since they are the ones making the hardware. Also, designing and manufacturing chips is not exactly cheap. Apple has years of experience in custom chip development for iPhones and iPads.
@@PurushNahiMahaPurush Microsoft wishes they could have a successful hardware business, did you forget about Surface, the purchase of Nokia, the Microsoft Band and Zune? MS has every incentive. Edit: Forgot about the time MS made a fitness band.
@@joenathane oh yea you are correct. But most of those ventures have been a catastrophic failure. Which is why I don’t think they’ll be that eager to get into making their own chips. The surface line up is pretty awesome ngl, albeit a bit pricey. What I wish is ARM chip makers get their shit together and work with MS. Right now in the ARM space, it’s basically Apple vs everyone else. Apple chips are so far ahead of everyone in both sheer performance and efficiency.
I've bought the Volterra Dev Kit and performance is very good, where it slows down is the applications that use heavy graphics features. I have ran x86 and x64 applications on the device and in most cases it is not noticeable that the application is running under emulation. There is no slowdown. I think the 32GB of RAM has helped a lot there. VS 2022 17.4 is now ARM native and it makes a big difference. Microsoft could release a Mac version of Windows on ARM to run natively with bootcamp. There is a bigger footprint of high performance ARM laptops in the Mac hardware space and the Apple Silicon processors would handle emulation of 64bit applications easily. They just need to optimise for those processors as they have already done with Qualcomm processors.
I'm curious, are you an IT professional? I.e. do you work in the tech industry / do you have any sort of degree in technology? I ask this because your videos are very level headed and well-articulated, unlike most tech youtubers just talking up the latest 'hype'.
I am interested in windows on arm, but to be fair mostly because it’s a niche. I develop software and for the customers to be even considering paying us for a migration to arm, it would have to be available on azure. Right now there is no market except other people who think it’s kind of nifty. Currently open source is leading the way in that regard.
@@petri Thanks for the heads up! I went looking and found an announcement from Microsoft saying that ARM based VMs are now GA on Azure, it took me a while to find out how to deploy but I can confirm it works. You have to manually find an image that is ARM64 based (no windows server yet, it looks like), only then the VM sizes that support ARM are available. It does not appear possible with app services, function apps or kubernetes though, but it's a start :)
Actually, it looks like I missed an obvious "architecture" radio button in the vm create screen, much easier! However, windows on arm is only available by manually looking for an image (and it's windows 11 so no production workloads)
I would like an 11-inch slim windows laptop resembling my HP Stream 11 but much faster and with a longer battery life. I think that windows 11 on ARM could fulfil this dream of mine.
There is one area where the ARM cpu architecture is better than the Intel and AMD X86 cpu architecture. That area is power consumption efficiency. The ARM architecture consumes less electricity than the X86 architecture. As an example I have an Apple Mac Studio computer with the M1 Max and both this computer and the Studio Display consume about 60 watts together most of the time. The computer I used before this one was a 2015 Apple Intel iMac that used about 2.5 times more watts. It is possible that the government may develop energy efficiency standards for computers. If the government develops energy efficiency standards for computers, computer manufacturers will start switching to the ARM architecture to meet the standards. It could be that Microsoft company believes that there will be an eventual switch from X86 to ARM cpu's and the company wants to be ready for this switch.
I've been using a Samsung Galaxy Book2 for some time now, based on the older generation Snapdragon CPU. An M1 MacBook Ait it definitely ain't, but a touchscreen it doth have. Being a long-term Windows user and admin, I recently recommended a local NFP startup buy M1 MacBook Air devices and they haven't looked back - even Microsoft 365 seems to be more functional on macOS than on Windows, they don't have to deal with the Win 11 foibles, and the performance and battery lifetime is insane compared to any available Windows laptop. Would I but these? Yes. But I wish Qualcomm could make processors that approach the performance levels of even the original M1 from a couple of years back.
Very controversial probably but to avoid ending up with another Windows Phone situation, would it make sense for MS to license the CPU tech from Apple? If even possible that is. Performance would no longer be an issue and app porting could possibly solve the lack of developer interest for Windows on ARM.
The only way that would be feasible for Windows on ARM is if a lot of OEMs jumped onto that as well. It shouldn’t be just Surface. I don’t think there’s any chance Apple will agree to that.
I own a Lenovo Yoga 5G 14 which has a Snapdragon 8cx Gen2 running Windows 11 ARM64. I only use it for web browsing and it does that no problem whilst running fanless. The Snapdragon 8cx Gen2 is about the same as a Microsoft Surface Laptop 2 with a Intel Core i7-8650U. Arm devices are meant to be portable, light, quiet and energy efficient. Windows on Arm could easily be released now if some more laptops and mini PC's were created with a Snapdragon 8cx Gen3 as that processor offers similar performance to a Microsoft Surface Laptop 4 with a AMD Ryzen 5 3580U. Windows on Arm is ready now for anyone who does everything via a web browser.
I disagree with the battery life part, the Surface Pro 9 Arm variant has pretty good battery life? Most reviews indicate it's about 20% better compared to the Intel variant.
But if you run the Intel version on battery saver mode, wouldn’t you be able to match the ARM version’s battery life on recommendation mode, while still outperforming it? I wish someone would test this.
Nope... You're wrong. The whole video is misleading. Microsoft is not going to create their own arm chip anytime soon. Project voltra is made to prepare windows app and WoA for Qualcomm nubia chip comes 2023.
Exactly. This guy has no idea what he's talking about. He completely ignores AMD's existence on x64 platform. Their latest chips are very power efficient and can compete with Apple's easily. Apple developers had simply no choice. Microsoft devs have as x86 architecture becomes more power efficient as AMD is using better nodes now.
Would you buy Project Volterra to use as a daily driver?
8:14 Didn’t they try this with Windows Phone, and it (obviously) didn’t work? And once that initial financial incentive is gone, bugs in ported software don’t get fixed. New versions aren’t ported.
I don’t think this is an adequate solution to this problem.
I've ordered one to support the porting of our application to ARM. Starting on x64, the application already runs on M1 and Linux on ARM ... but we waited until there was proper support from Microsoft with VS 2022 and this hardware to develop and debug NATIVELY on ARM. Native development is critically important to (a) efficient workflow for developers using the actual device for the port and (b) confidence that we can debug real-world problems on the actual hardware. It is a pity that Microsoft didn't get going with this more quickly ... but better that they follow along behind Apple than give up and don't try. x64 will live on for a long long time, but ARM will become increasingly relevant, even in the Windows world.
Indeed, Microsoft can't afford to let Windows on Arm slip. It will be important, including for server.
Volterra wasn't meant to be a Mac mini competitor, it was meant to be a device that helps Windows catch up with the M1/M2 software. It's upto QUALCOMM to compete with the Apple's M1/2. I'm curious what the Surface team is doing with the Studio 3 since The Studio is the only product that would compete with the Mac mini.
I’m tempted to buy it and use it as my main computer just because it looks cool. 32 gigs of RAM is also probably all I’ll ever need.
I'm using Windows 11 ARM laptop rn and it actually beats the crap out of my previous i5. Intel HD Graphics can't compete with Adreno. Iinm, 8cx gen 3 is around 80% of M1 performance so am not sure why you keep saying it can't compete with Apple. And that only uses Cortex X1 core. We have Cortex X3, Nuvia cores and Immortalis G715 coming.
Can't compete right now. That doesn't mean it cannot compete in the future. As you say, Nuvia might change the game for Windows on Arm.
So I'm kinda confused can game on the arm laptop
@@imakeeditsiwillbeatevil9346 It can, somewhat, but you won't be able to play all in 4k
Video games not running on ARM is a big problem
Come to macos
@@DISTRICTOVERDOSE MacOs is even worse LMAO
If Microsoft was to make their own processors, this would discourage the other hardware producers, they should rather parthmer with ARM for the design of a new core that works better.
I actually dream about next Microsoft Surface Laptop Studio being without bottom cooling part and with Qualcomm's Nuvia ARM CPU inside.
I'm sure it will happen eventually!
If MS can make a Windows Arm Device that everyone wants, I mean lining up at the door to buy it, then the apps will come. MS should have gone all in and made a true competitor to Apples M-Series chips, as it stands I think Woa is a dead end.
@Bravo Six problem is that they can’t, microsoft has no control over what hardware manufacturers do
Microsoft has no incentive to. For Apple, Intel stagnation was holding back their design team with what they wanted to make, a thin but powerful laptop that excels at video and audio production. They were tired of paying Intel royalties for minuscule updates each year. So they went all in with ARM because they had no other choice as x86 landscape had been stagnant for so long.
For Microsoft, they are only interested in selling Windows. They don’t care what it runs on. Battery life is not a MS issue. It’s the OEM’s problem since they are the ones making the hardware. Also, designing and manufacturing chips is not exactly cheap. Apple has years of experience in custom chip development for iPhones and iPads.
@@PurushNahiMahaPurush Microsoft wishes they could have a successful hardware business, did you forget about Surface, the purchase of Nokia, the Microsoft Band and Zune? MS has every incentive. Edit: Forgot about the time MS made a fitness band.
@@joenathane oh yea you are correct. But most of those ventures have been a catastrophic failure. Which is why I don’t think they’ll be that eager to get into making their own chips. The surface line up is pretty awesome ngl, albeit a bit pricey. What I wish is ARM chip makers get their shit together and work with MS. Right now in the ARM space, it’s basically Apple vs everyone else. Apple chips are so far ahead of everyone in both sheer performance and efficiency.
I've bought the Volterra Dev Kit and performance is very good, where it slows down is the applications that use heavy graphics features. I have ran x86 and x64 applications on the device and in most cases it is not noticeable that the application is running under emulation. There is no slowdown. I think the 32GB of RAM has helped a lot there. VS 2022 17.4 is now ARM native and it makes a big difference.
Microsoft could release a Mac version of Windows on ARM to run natively with bootcamp. There is a bigger footprint of high performance ARM laptops in the Mac hardware space and the Apple Silicon processors would handle emulation of 64bit applications easily. They just need to optimise for those processors as they have already done with Qualcomm processors.
do you think it would run the android apks in stuff
It should, windows 11 runs android apks by default and the arm processor should be better than an x86 emulator
Microsoft can add a seperate translation section in to the SOC.
I'm curious, are you an IT professional? I.e. do you work in the tech industry / do you have any sort of degree in technology? I ask this because your videos are very level headed and well-articulated, unlike most tech youtubers just talking up the latest 'hype'.
Thanks. My background is in IT.
I am interested in windows on arm, but to be fair mostly because it’s a niche. I develop software and for the customers to be even considering paying us for a migration to arm, it would have to be available on azure. Right now there is no market except other people who think it’s kind of nifty. Currently open source is leading the way in that regard.
Microsoft is making VMs with Arm processors available on Azure.
@@petri Thanks for the heads up! I went looking and found an announcement from Microsoft saying that ARM based VMs are now GA on Azure, it took me a while to find out how to deploy but I can confirm it works.
You have to manually find an image that is ARM64 based (no windows server yet, it looks like), only then the VM sizes that support ARM are available. It does not appear possible with app services, function apps or kubernetes though, but it's a start :)
Actually, it looks like I missed an obvious "architecture" radio button in the vm create screen, much easier!
However, windows on arm is only available by manually looking for an image (and it's windows 11 so no production workloads)
I would like an 11-inch slim windows laptop resembling my HP Stream 11 but much faster and with a longer battery life. I think that windows 11 on ARM could fulfil this dream of mine.
There is one area where the ARM cpu architecture is better than the Intel and AMD X86 cpu architecture. That area is power consumption efficiency. The ARM architecture consumes less electricity than the X86 architecture. As an example I have an Apple Mac Studio computer with the M1 Max and both this computer and the Studio Display consume about 60 watts together most of the time. The computer I used before this one was a 2015 Apple Intel iMac that used about 2.5 times more watts. It is possible that the government may develop energy efficiency standards for computers. If the government develops energy efficiency standards for computers, computer manufacturers will start switching to the ARM architecture to meet the standards. It could be that Microsoft company believes that there will be an eventual switch from X86 to ARM cpu's and the company wants to be ready for this switch.
I've been using a Samsung Galaxy Book2 for some time now, based on the older generation Snapdragon CPU. An M1 MacBook Ait it definitely ain't, but a touchscreen it doth have.
Being a long-term Windows user and admin, I recently recommended a local NFP startup buy M1 MacBook Air devices and they haven't looked back - even Microsoft 365 seems to be more functional on macOS than on Windows, they don't have to deal with the Win 11 foibles, and the performance and battery lifetime is insane compared to any available Windows laptop.
Would I but these? Yes. But I wish Qualcomm could make processors that approach the performance levels of even the original M1 from a couple of years back.
Very controversial probably but to avoid ending up with another Windows Phone situation, would it make sense for MS to license the CPU tech from Apple? If even possible that is. Performance would no longer be an issue and app porting could possibly solve the lack of developer interest for Windows on ARM.
The only way that would be feasible for Windows on ARM is if a lot of OEMs jumped onto that as well. It shouldn’t be just Surface. I don’t think there’s any chance Apple will agree to that.
I own a Lenovo Yoga 5G 14 which has a Snapdragon 8cx Gen2 running Windows 11 ARM64. I only use it for web browsing and it does that no problem whilst running fanless. The Snapdragon 8cx Gen2 is about the same as a Microsoft Surface Laptop 2 with a Intel Core i7-8650U. Arm devices are meant to be portable, light, quiet and energy efficient. Windows on Arm could easily be released now if some more laptops and mini PC's were created with a Snapdragon 8cx Gen3 as that processor offers similar performance to a Microsoft Surface Laptop 4 with a AMD Ryzen 5 3580U. Windows on Arm is ready now for anyone who does everything via a web browser.
I disagree with the battery life part, the Surface Pro 9 Arm variant has pretty good battery life? Most reviews indicate it's about 20% better compared to the Intel variant.
That's good to hear. I don't think that's been the case with many Windows on Arm devices though. Looks like they are making progress though.
But if you run the Intel version on battery saver mode, wouldn’t you be able to match the ARM version’s battery life on recommendation mode, while still outperforming it? I wish someone would test this.
Gonna have to wait for Nuvia processors
Yes, let's hope they live up to expectations.
Qualcomm's Nuvia ARM CPU in late 2023.. :)
Nope... You're wrong. The whole video is misleading. Microsoft is not going to create their own arm chip anytime soon.
Project voltra is made to prepare windows app and WoA for Qualcomm nubia chip comes 2023.
also not sure what does he means by a platform that nobody uses, I have win 11 arm running on a vm on my m1
Exactly. This guy has no idea what he's talking about. He completely ignores AMD's existence on x64 platform. Their latest chips are very power efficient and can compete with Apple's easily. Apple developers had simply no choice. Microsoft devs have as x86 architecture becomes more power efficient as AMD is using better nodes now.
@@dominusbelial *unofficially
I didn't say Microsoft is going to make their own chip. Just that maybe they should. But maybe they won't need to if Nuvia lives up to its promises.
How many Windows on Arm devices are sold yearly? Very few in comparison to x86.
you might of forgot that Snapdragon company hired an Apple chip tech for there windows computers.
I had forgotten. Thanks for the reminder. Let's see what the future brings.
I don't like when youtubers title their video with a question they can't answer simply because they don't actually have the device...
I don't need the device. We already know the 8cx gen 3 doesn't match the performance of the M1/M2.