My Response to the NYT
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- No Contact, Therapists & TikTok (New York Times Interview)
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0:00 NYT (Is Cutting Off Your Family Good Therapy?)
2:44 Therapists and Estrangement
8:10 RRP and Estrangement
15:55 TikTok and Trending
18:41 Final Thoughts
22:43 Outro
4 HR WORK DAY PRE SCHOOL RUN NAP USE YOUR OVER WORKED NOGGINS TRAIN YOUR CLIENTS LOOK FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HELPING ETC. GOOD INSIDE BY DR BECKY WELCOME TO YOUR PERIOD BY YUMI STYNES DOES JK ROWLING POST ABOUT WOMENS ONLY PRISONS?
BULLYING IS CHILD ON ABUSE. PIRATE RADIO LIVES. BUT ITS HEALTHIRE NOW.
ZUCKERBERG YOUR NEW SKA PLAYLIST IS MORNING RAGA BY RAVI SHANKAR. GIVE SYCRA YASIN HIS RUclips CHANEL BACK IF YOURE BUSY TUCKER CARLSON WILL DO IT QUICKER. HE GETS MORE DONE THAN YOU BEFORE 5AM. IS IT LUCIEN OR LUCIFER MR UNIVERSAL RECORDS. IS THE SOCIAL NETWORK A VAMPIRE FILM. ARE HARVARD THE VULTURES. DID ZUCKERBERG GET STOCKHOLM SYNDRIME?
IM TALKING ABOUT DR KIRAN BEDI AND DR SARAH PARCACK MEETING ELON MUSK BECAUSES A SPACE ARCHAEOLOGIST AND A PRISON REFORM ANGEL.ANGELS MEN ARE ANGELS BURN THE BALLROOM SINNGING AT CAIRO EMBASSY THATS JUST DELIGHTFUL. HES DADRIEL AND YOURE ALL IN A GAY THROUPLE AWW
PIZZA DAY BY THE AQUA BATS. THEY MIGHT BE GIANTS SONG - COMMUNISTS. STOLE THE MUSIC. FIVE, THE BOY BAND ARE RAPMETALSKA. IN 1990 FT THE LOUVRE.
Estrangement doesn’t hurt the family. The abuse hurt the family.
Amen 💛
Exactly. No one goes no contact without a good reason. It's the most difficult thing a child or any age can go through with a parent at any age.
Exactly!!!
Please post this on the article
bingo
I don't know why no contact is so controversial - if someone outside of our family did to us what our family did, we would cut them off and no one would say boo to us about it. Family is no different.
No contact is controversial because we live in a culture that believes parents have the right to use their children as emotional dumpsters. Society won't even see it as abuse unless blood is drawn.
@josetrindade3550 I understand that, and the question was actually rhetorical, because no contact should not be controversial no matter who one is going no contact with.
@@BrettTheHauntedSarcastic yes, I understood you were being rethorical :)
I’ve seen it trending to go no contact as teens because the parents won’t let them get affirming surgery till 18
@@ElinWinbladMaybe exercise some critical thinking skills, Elim
Im going no contact with New York Times.
Hahah I was already low contact. that’s too good 😂
yaassssss. best comment.
Heh, that's pretty funny. I've been a subscriber for years. Now I'm just there for the crossword puzzle. But I might have to write a letter to the Editor about this article.
Block it
U better
Arguing that therapists who say "hey, you don't have to keep subjecting yourself to abuse" is violating "foundational ethical principles" because it might affect access to "financial and emotional resources" is like criticizing a cancer surgeon for cutting someone open to remove tissue that's "perfectly alive" because "it can take weeks of pain to heal from a surgery like that! What happened to 'Do No Harm???'"
Abusive parents. An "emotional resource." Wtf. And so many survivors desperately want to STOP receiving checks and gifts from their toxic families.
Imagine if this article were about domestic violence survivors getting away from their abusers. Imagine calling up an interviewee's violent ex to ask for "their side of the story" and then being like "but they caaaan't be an abuser! They go on Buddhist meditation retreats!!!"
What the fuck, NYT.
Plus, it's both delusional AND shady as heck. What emotional resource? + Really, endure abuse for financial resources??
I have never received emotional support from my parents, that’s kind of the issue. And whenever I have accepted financial support, I always regretted it, it was like making a deal with the devil
@@dbandekar bingo! Turns out we have similar parents
@@dbandekarThey want us dependent. It drives my mother crazy that I don’t need her money. 😏
@@dbandekarsame! Presents with strings attached 😢
I couldnt help but roll my eyes when the parents quoted in the article said they were "blindsided." Sure, Jan. What they really mean is that they truly thought they could treat you horribly their whole life without any consequence.
Well it says volumes about how well they ignore _reality_!
Proof is in the fauxpology they give, “sorry you feel that way.” Womp woooomp 😢
Way to admit they have no empathy! I didn’t notice i abused you so you shouldn’t act like you were abused
@@M_SC yep, no accountability for what they do!
Same!
There was a video that got some traction a while back that was made by a disgruntled estranged parent who perceived herself as a victim of a societal ill. In the video, she too claimed to be blindsided, which was actually hilarious because even in this video where she was painting herself in the best light possible, all the reasons for her child to cut contact were _painfully_ obvious. It actually felt satirical at some points. She'd say "I never did XYZ!" and then go on to describe herself doing XYZ.
Abusive people very frequently do not see their actions as abuse and feel completely justified in their ways, and they do not consider their victims' response to the abuse to be rational, so they dismiss it. They're blindsided because they're blind to their own actions and are disinterested in the feelings and experiences of their victim, not because their victim did something rash or unwarranted.
I think the NYT article with its dismissal of going no contact with abusive family members is another sign that folks who have a lot of power (ie, parents) don’t like seeing people assert and use their own power.
Yup. Im honestly surprised they didn't go full lazy argument and dismiss it as woke
100% This is what is driving the “parents’ rights” political movement.
I find this a very important point, and it comes up in so many contexts - anything from "you parent your kids differently from how we parented you" to "you chose a different name than the one we gave you" to "you don't want to be a doctor/lawyer like we always talked about" - to a controlling person or system, the autonomy and empowerment of people they've always had control over is inherently regarded as threatening.
love this analysis - it's all about POWER.
@@steamysimmer The more I learned about family abuse, the more I saw it on the national stage.
They also failed to note and emphasize in this article that cutting off a parent or family is oftentimes the hardest thing one has to do, and does not at all happen on a whim-- it's usually after multiple outrageously exhausting attempts and giving chances to the abuser for acknowledging the abuse so we can have some sort of relationship at least. But respect goes both ways. You don't demand it, you earn it without expectation. Same with love.
This‼️
Yah. Dr. Teahan called no-contact "the caboose at the end of a very long train."
EXACTLY, what I was thinking.
@@wingwmn217 exactly.4+ Decades of abuse to finally realize I need to at least focus on healing myself instead of worrying how they view that attempt to heal. And THAT was apparently hateful and abusive to THEM. So I decided in myself that interactions aren't healthy and until they can care enough about their impact (not holding my breath) I've got to just continue to focus on healing me. I still struggle with that choice but a few brief unavailable interactions where things went fine, left me so dyregulated for weeks anyway, that I finally realized just how toxic it is to be around them even when I desperately want to be healed enough to do so. I can't seem to make that to happen fast enough. So Patrick and folks like him have helped me realize my body knows best and it holds the key to understanding just how harmful they have been. Intentional or not. But I'll be honest it still breaks my heart not to be safe enough to be closer to them.
Yes! This! Hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life
I thought it was wild when that one woman was like yeah I was a mentally ill alcoholic who abused my kids but I led the Girl Scout troop so give me a break. No one looked out for us when we were kids and now that we’re grown and won’t take it anymore they want to paper over it.
Yes, that was full of the dissonance in the problem I think.
Ah yes, the one who said she was being punished. Maybe if you failed at parenting, be grateful that your kids were able to give themselves the tools to have a good life. I get that she’s sad, that’s valid, but she is STILL making her kids’ trauma all about herself.
Maybe it’s me being naive, but that was the sort of quote that made me think the article was being favorable to no contact. I mean… surely people see the absurdity of saying that you were borderline and alcoholic, but you tried because you exercised or something? The writers are just exposing the cognitive dissonance… right? 😅
@@ludmilamaiolini6811 But yet they make the adult child seem like a selfish shrew for not being understanding of the parents problems. Leaving out that our empathy is often used as a rope tethering us to the toxic parent. They're labeling us with the 'selfish' label when it is the parents selfishness that we are trying to escape. They only had empathy for the parents perspective in my opinion.
@@gracieb.3054 to be quite honest, that wasn’t the feeling I got from the article. It was certainly sensationalistic and framed no contact as something encouraged by social media, which I think is a disservice, but it seemed like they offered counterpoints for every argument the parents made. In every case they wrote about, they mentioned that the children who went no contact felt better, and they also wrote in Patrick’s reply to the parents arguing that they did no wrong and they were cut off out of the blue. All in all, I don’t think it was as sensitive as it could be and could do a better job providing context, but I don’t think it was wholly unsympathetic to the victims
Irresponsible journalism is a much worse plague on humanity than children cutting off toxic/abusive parents. That article literally disgusted me.
Me too----the article is biased toward the "long suffering" parents---enough already!
@@BriggitteNCgo I’ve read it multiple times to give it an honest try, but I can’t find anything nuanced about it at all.
This, you put my thoughts into words perfectly.
"Irresponsible journalism", that's sweettalking basic propaganda brainwash.
Yep, media in general has alot to answer for.
Saying that the child shouldn't go no contact with a parent when that parent refuses to get help and have a healthier relationship with the child... is saying that a parent's mental health is not the responsibility of the parent and is the responsibility of the child. That's not fair. That was never fair for the child, and that's not fair for an adult child either.
Every parent is responsible for their own mental health.
Parents mess their kids up and then say "it's your responsibility to radically accept me for being a monster and never wanting to change" and the child is the one at fault here? Sounds like someone wants the authority of a tyrant but the accountability of a toddler when it comes to parenting.
"is saying that a parent's mental health is not the responsibility of the parent and is the responsibility of the child." Each party is responsible for their own mental health. So why did you just blame parents for messing their kids up? When exactly do you think the child should stop blaming the parent and take accountability for their own faults?
@@susanharbison2551 what a bad faith statement. you know very well that a little kid is not capable of being responsible for anything about themself. Of course your child’s mental health is your responsibility! Same way their physical health and safety is your responsibility, and whether they have food to eat and get to school and just about literally everything else. When they become adults it becomes their responsibility, but it is your job as a parent to teach your children through your behaviours how to healthily manage their emotions and psychological wellbeing so that they aren’t set up for failure as adults themselves. People choose to have kids. Part of making that decision needs to be to grow the hell up or don’t have them.
@@susanharbison2551a young person is directly affected by their parenting (or lack thereof).
As they reach young adulthood, of course they need to the responsibility of their mental health. However, the parents are always older, yes? So they have the primary responsibility to “seek help” if need be, for themselves and/or their children.
@@susanharbison2551the child takes responsibility for him or herself when he or she stops wasting emotional resources on the abusive parent.
@@susanharbison2551 when exactly should parents stop playing the "I raised you to be better than this" card? When exactly should parents stop trying to insert themselves into their children's lives?
It goes both ways you know. Parents want all the power over their children's lives, and all the praise for their successes, but none of the accountability for the messes they create.
Hi everyone. I read the NYT article last night. I'm Brazilian, so we have our cultural differences and I'm not sure about the NYT's reputation. I found the article extremely poorly written and biased, as if it had been commissioned by a group of estranged parents. Anyone familiar with Patrick Teahan's work does not see him in the flamboyant way depicted in the article. The author finding the jokes strange is very odd; it's part of the therapist's unconditional acceptance of the patient. My therapist does this with me, and she's not even a specialist in family estrangement. I didn't know that in the US, there's such a strong and conservative idea that we have to stay with our family of origin until the end, no matter what happens. In Brazil, which is an extremely conservative and, I would say, backward country in some aspects, it's a topic that most people take in stride. It's not a tragedy or a big taboo when a child decides to separate from their parents, after all she suffered. I know a lot of people who have done this.
Our country has unfortunately and recently decided to go backwards in time 70+ years to when women and people of color need to shut up and let the white men tell us what to say think and feel. It's utterly disgraceful what's happening in the US today. Corruption no longer hides under any pretense.
Yah Flora. Here in the USA we have major cultural input from the Puritans that has held on here for hundreds of years. Some of it was good, like the separation of church and state, some of it questionable, like the Protestant work ethic, and some of it bad IMO. To me one of the bad ideas was the notion that "family is everything" and the concomitant beliefs that children have to honor and obey their parents no matter what, blood is thicker than water, BUT I'M YOUR MOOOOOOTHER, and so on. I think a lot of evil is done with that belief. In 1975 I went low-contact (there was no name for it in those days) with my family and moved 3,000 miles away. I kept in touch just a little. It took time, but I did eventually surround myself with a new family of friends. And my mental health improved so much.
NYT is not nearly as good a paper as it thinks it is
very insightful, thank you.
I'm so curious about why culturally this is accepted in some places and not others. Do you feel like there is a strong reliance on community outside of family in Brazil? I wonder if part of it is because the U.S. is so extremely individualistic and we're taught that the only support we can or should get should come from within our nuclear family.
The NYT apparently has historically handled topics like this very poorly. I am not a fan of theirs at all especially after their handling of the Palestinian genocide in general and this. The US is so slanted that "progressive" sources are like. Moderate at best. Someone also pointed out that the vast majority of subscribers and readers of it are older and wealthier so they probably cater to that audience as well.
As a therapist who went no contact with family due to physical and emotional abuse, it was the best thing I ever did. It created the space for me to heal and to be present with others through their pain.
Same here. I don't really trust the NYT because they are biased in their reporting. I watch the RUclips channel called "Shrinking Trump" that these two psychologists run and they recently had another psychologist on to rebut how he was also misquoted in the NYT about Biden and his supposed "cognitive decline" and made his opinion appear much different from what he actually said. I've been a subscriber to them since the 2016 election and since they and the rest of the MSM basically hounded Biden out of the race over untrue allegations about his supposed "cognitive decline," I'm going to cancel my subscription to them and the WaPo.
I'm sure Patrick was taken out of context as well as the above noted psychologist who made the mistake of giving an opinion to one of their "reporters." I read that article and was like "WTF? I can't believe any therapist would 'push' a client into going low to no contact with an abusive parent, but I can believe a therapist mentioning it as a healthy way to heal from childhood trauma."
Ditto. I’m also a therapist who has been no contact since 2016 and it was a last resort decision after years of trying to make sustainable contact with a shred of their humanity… and it was the single most peace-producing decision of my life! 💖
I remember waking up with so much joy and gratitude and sleeping better than usual and waking up earlier and dramatically more refreshed for the first couple weeks after that decision- a sign from my psyche and body that this was 1000% the right call.
YES‼️ THESE‼️
No contact & grateful.❤ thanks @patrickteahan
I agree ❤
If a stranger had done to me what my parents did to me, they’d be in jail. I think abuse survivors struggle with healthy boundaries and going no contact is a huge important step in the right direction.
Exactly, I wouldn't tolerate my mother's abusive behavior followed by years of neglect and tearing my successes down if she was just a friend. why should I tolerate that behavior just because she is "family".
@@ansteve1 You're mirroring my own experience and feelings about my oen mother EXACTLY. In fact, realizing taht I would NOT accept such abusive behavior from a friend was what made me ask that question, "Why should I accept it from her?" I was42 years old. My only regert is taht I didn't do it by age 25 (when she had CONTINUED to be abusive towards me in some significant incidents). But, I didn't value myself enough in my 20s and I was totally entangled dwith being "parentified" and would have felt guilty for even consideiring cutting her off. Going no contact with my mother was one of the healthiest decisions I've ever made.
This right here. It's amazing how obsession with family structure seems to supersede what would be seen as horrific if a stranger did it. Society still sees kids as property.
I felt triggered by the NYT article, as I’ve experienced family therapists who are similar to the journalist who wrote it, who don’t believe that abuse truly exists and retraumatized me by placing the burden for change on me alone, at a time when I was already at a breaking point.
Thank you for pushing back against misinformation and cognitive dissonance.
I went NC with my family of origin 10 years ago, and I can relate to being triggered by articles like this. It's so belittling and condescending to adult kids who had to go NC to protect themselves from being hurt again, by people who should have loved and protected us unconditionally, and they failed. I truly hope that you are managing somewhat okay, and that you have people in your life that make you feel safe and accepted to talk to.
Yes, me too. It actually sounds like my father wrote it. He writes scientific journal articles. 🧐
I wonder if the writer is an abuse or estranged parent? Or just very ignorant
Same
So sorry you had such aggressively obtuse therapists. That’s a trauma
Journalists always have to give the appearance of looking at both sides of an issue. They never succeed. This writer Ellen Barry is perpetrator-identified. "So, while you were beating your little boy, did it ever cross your mind that he could permanently escape from you someday?" She might have asked these heart-broken parents questions like that. But no, she is all on about how it's the therapist's fault for tearing apart the family, and how the parents are the victims. I don't buy it. If parents want their children to stay close, they have to quit trying to control and manipulate and abuse. If low-contact and no-contact are a trend in abusive households, I think it's overdue.
I wonder if there was any deeper dive into what occurred with the PLACE couple. It's interesting that victims of SA are considered automatically innocent and forgivable, but victims of mental abuse, neglect, alcoholism, drug abuse, etc, are all somehow "bad people" for walking away.
I actually came across PLACE accidentally a while back, and watched a bunch of their videos. I originally thought it was going to be about parents who lost children to abusive situations - for example their child dates an abusive partner who isolates them. However, after watching and reading quite a bit, there's a very large gap in details and information from most of them. They talk about themselves a lot. They talk about their personal feelings of hurt, and anger, and confusion. They seem "blindsided" by the cutoff, as if there's no lead-up. They don't give specifics (in contrast to children who cut-off parents usually have specific leading incidences). Even parents who's children became DV victims usually say "My daughter started dating a guy who forbade her from seeing us." It's very pointed. It's usually followed with "My daughter and I used to talk on the phone every day, and then one day she said she 'can't talk to me anymore, because her husband thinks it's unhealthy.' and then we never spoke again." It's about the loss of the relationship and child, not things like "I'm embarrassed that I can't tell people at the grocery store that my daughter is well. She's embarrassing the family."
Anyway, I wonder how much digging into PLACE the NYT actually did. It really was only 1 video in, and reading the comments, that I realized something was off. I watched more just to see if I misjudged and realized it wasn't what I thought it was.
@@Solonneysa Thanks for your thoughts. My concern about PLACE and similar organizations is not that these parents are organizing and talking to each other. Let them do that, there's nothing that can be done to prevent it. My concern is with people like Dr. Katy Murphy, a mental health counselor in Iowa who trains early-career therapists, and is now actively reporting individual therapists to licensing boards for talking about no-contact. She claims that therapists like Dr. Teahan are violating an ethical principle. She has a daughter who, guess what? went no-contact with her. So she is a victim, now, with an ax to grind and a whetstone to grind it on.
They don't have to look at both sides. Thar's new bullsh=t from the last decade.
Do they interview murderers and pedophiles and et their side of the story?
@@SonomaTarot You seem to discount Dr. Murphy's position on estrangement simply because she is an EP. You said she is "a victim, now, with an ax to grind and a whetstone to grind it on". Does the same standard apply to every EAC (Dr. Teahan) and every EP?
@@SolonneysaI appreciate your comment, but as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse AND SA as an adult, I can assure you that we are absolutely not treated as automatically innocent or forgivable. People who have no idea often imagine this to be the case (along with garbage assumptions that "female victims get sympathy, male victims don't" when in reality female victims are almost always treated like complete shit), but it really isn't reality and it's harmful to say that we're treated well when we're not. Everyone "supports SA survivors" until it's their friend or family member or celebrity they admire who committed the sexual abuse, and then there's often no depth to the depravity they'll sink to to blame the survivor or deny the abuse outright. And spoiler alert: almost EVERY abuser has a significant community of friends/family/admirers around them to outnumber and bully their victims. It goes with the territory of SA in general - so please don't say things that are not true about what the societal response to us is.
You can't damage something that doesn't exist. If family is a toxic force, it fails the definition.
Very well said!
preach
Terrific comment. Those who shouted loudest at me "ruining the family" by leaving were the ones who'd failed to build it in the first place.
@@rebecca_stone that's ungrateful
Brutally true and commonsensical.
The author claims to be a reporter for mental health issues and trauma. I think she still has much to learn.
yes---agreed!
Same as "science reporters" hehe
She's their former international correspondent. I can find no evidence that she is even qualified to have an opinion on mental health.
You know what? Now I'm curious about HER children!
Yes! Most reporters are not that aware. I'm old enough to definitely see a drastic decline in quality of news reporting. It isn't the same. It is now more about inciting rage and kneejerk reactions bc that is common social media behavior (sadly) and gets the likes and views aka money.
My abuser thinks enmeshment is "love" and boundaries are "abuse"; it's completely twisted and backwards. Her wires are entirely crossed.
That article is pushback against attitudes like this... It's the less emotionally intelligent take... Some people might be dealing with a severity of issues that can align more with a "resolution" but favoritism at the societal level toward the parents only makes things worse, and stigmatizing low or no contact is dangerous for many people, even if it's in small ways at times. It's like stigmatizing divorce.
Same here. My parents have a very unhealthy view of what makes a healthy relationship.
Good comment!
@@newfacenewyear Good comment.
I’m a trauma therapist and focus on narcissistic abuse treatment. It’s a real shame that you had to clarify and defend yourself against the inaccuracies of the article. They did a disservice to the field and especially to the niche of trauma therapy. There is already a lack of trained, experienced trauma therapists. This article did not contribute to increasing public trust in this niche. Thank you for your work, Patrick. You are a resource I recommend to clients for between sessions support 🙏
If neutral or on the fence people come to RUclips to see what this wild therapist is about, they might just see this video and some of the ideas presented here might just make a lot of sense to them.
I agree.
I will go one step further to suggest that the writers are narcissists or coercive controllers themselves that is why they have no empathy for the abused.
@cglo1916 I am a therapist as well and have a similar niche. I agree wholeheartedly
I agree. Not feeling understood by others when going no contact is a big burden in the whole healing process. Unfortunately this article confirms that.
Excusing an abusive parent on the basis of generational trauma is bs. It negates the hard work, courage and pain that we as parents do to BREAK that generational trauma. After becoming a parent I realized how ridiculous it is to argue that because I now see the opportunities my parents had to make a different choice, and I have less privilege and just as much trauma as they do. The parents who are hurt about being cut off should be, and they earned it. They spent our entire lives earning this cut off, and the bill has come due. Even my mothers mother who has more trauma than all of us can identify my mothers abuse and narcissism and has talked to her about it .
Parents need to do their own inner work before getting to even speak a single word on this subject.
❤️🔥
Agreed ❤
Exactly. It can be an explanation, and maybe
soften the edges a little of how we view the person - they weren’t doing it just to hurt us - but its not an excuse. At all.
@@archervine8064to paraphrase Dr. Robert Sapolsky - just because I don’t hold a car morally responsible when the brakes fail and I’m seriously hurt because of it doesn’t mean I ever want to get back in and drive it again
I think we need to be even louder. There is nothing morally wrong with cutting off contact with an abusive parent. Full stop. Say it everywhere. We need more articles like this in media that these abusive parents listen to.... cable news and AM radio?
cable news and AM radio?
that's the outlets abusive parents use??
what exactly does that statement mean?
Abusive parents don't watch PBS? yeah they do
Abusive parents don't watch MSNBC? yeah they do
kinda sounds like an "abusive parents" are conservative rant...
if so, pretty weak thinking. May want to lay off the koolaid a bit...
Not articles like this particularly cuz this one validated them a lot. There was a whole section about parents crying about their NC children and going all "i didnt do anything".
@@Vampress09”I didn’t do anything” lol sounds about right. If they admitted or acknowledged they’d hurt anyone their child wouldn’t have had to go N-C.
My exact feeling. This article represents the societal pathologizing of healthy responses to unhealthy family systems. As the dominant social organization in society, its able to pass the unhealthiness as normal.
I agree and raise you: it is morally good and imperitive to remove yourself and the people around you, possibly including your own children, from abusive people, including abusive parents.
They failed to acknowledge the reality that many childhood trauma survivors never get emotional or financial support to begin with. Sadly, you have to save yourself and you can't wait around forever for your parents to stop abusing you.
The “just asking” tone of the NYT article struck me a covert hit piece to draw clicks by implying that online content creators on narcissism are breaking up families.
Yes. When survivors know the reality is that it is abuser parents that break up their own families and not the victims who end their abuse by rejecting it and leaving that are the problem.
It's always the whistleblowers who get the most hate, instead of the perpetrators. People who call out abuse are often seen as troublemakers, and boat-rockers. For some reason, the victim complex of perpetrators is fed. Someone says something cruel and you walk away? You're somehow to blame for "hurting their feelings." It's wildly common, even in more mundane situations.
@@Solonneysa Society hates whistleblowers.
@@SolonneysaIt's because abuse happens in all kinds of families, including very rich and affluent, even heavily politically involved. Abusers who have a lot of means, resources and influence might use it to shut down any kind of defense from the abuse and any kind of talks about it, because they react to their shame and are simply enabled to do whatever because of money. I'm pretty sure someone paid a lot for that article to exist and to be that way purposely.
Bad faith arguments to generate outrage. That's the easiest way to get clicks so that's what almost everyone does now. Journalistic integrity is going extinct.
My favorite part of the article was Dianne, the alcoholic mom with Borderline PD, who couldn’t understand what had gone wrong because, as the reporter pointed out, she led Girl Scouts and taught Sunday School (IOW, performative activities with other people’s children). I’m just speechless.
Nooo way!!! 😮 Disgusting.
@safetyfirst1984 Interesting.
Taught Sunday school. Huh. Religion again.
The same mom who received a letter from her daughter detailing *exactly why* the estrangement was happening that she boiled down to politics? And the same one who took a year to respond to that letter and when she finally did started by reminded her daughter how she saved her life because she stopped her from choking when she was a baby? She was blindsided? You don't say 👀
that is so my dad
I tried for OVER A DECADE to help/heal my abusive parent and convince them to treat me like a human being. I'm so so so glad I gave up and decided to focus on saving myself instead of saving my parent-- and for me, that had to mean estrangement. I sincerely hope she's happy and also I'm successful in life now because I've stopped making it my problem. Thank you for sharing this video!
I found it ironic that she paints you as a TikTok therapist, and I've been following you since before TikTok existed because of your work on the ACEs scores... yet Brian Briscoe, who she paints as a sympathetic estranged parent helping others like him, I only know about through TikTok. I felt like the author's bias was on full display in that article.
I only learned about Joshua Coleman through that article as well, and let me tell you that was a scary rabbit hole to travel down. Notable that the author felt the need to spell out how much money you make off your "lampooning" of estranged parents, yet didn't mention the fees Coleman charges for helping parents write those "amends letters" (he'll even cross your estranged child's boundaries over email, although if they agree to meet with him there's an additional fee). There's a video here on RUclips where he advises looking for the "kernel if not the bushel of truth" in your child's story of abuse, and advises parents to keep apologies vague and brief because "you don't want to give enough rope to hang yourself with." But the therapists helping adults process their childhood trauma are obviously the real problem here.
I hope you know how appreciated you are in this space, and I suspect this sorry excuse for reporting will only add to your "massive RUclips following." Thanks for refraining from staying neutral in the face of abuse.
Ooh, Patrick. You’re doing amazing work and this is just a higher profile example of an estranged “mom in your DMs.”
That joke was golden, and you’re so right. 😂
My thoughts exactly!
Exactly, the whole article reads like "tell me you're an abusive parent who is estranged from your long-suffering adult children without telling me." 😂
In my opinion, the New York Times has descended to the level of a tabloid. I cancelled my subscription last fall.
I went low contact with my siblings early in the pandemic because I couldn't tolerate their behavior anymore, They were more obnoxious, each in their own way, then abusive but I am now much happier. I hired a therapist after that to help me deal with my emotions.
I hope more people do as you did. We have the right to the pursuit of happiness. Go for it!
I wish they would have asked the estranged parents tough questions. Like "what did your child say when you apologized and offered some space or a new start? What does your therapist suggest about this situation?" It would be quickly pretty clear a lot of the very vocal estranged parents have not even considered they had any part in causing or healing the rift, and are not willing to do any work around it. A lot of them just issue demands.
end expect rewards for being even briefly reasonable
This may be true for some, but there are many who are willing but the cutoff strategy used prior to even understanding the reason. Mostly over disagreements not necessarily abuse in all cases.
@@karenanderson3825 most of the time those type of parents don't believe the trauma is valid enough to agree with. Or say things like, "I went through XYZ so you just have to deal just like me." Some people think they try, but they're either not actually listening or just listening enough to defend & invalidate.
Maybe - at least the first lady they mentioned wrote their parents a letter, then did not read their response. Suppose the wished-for apology was in there?
@@andreaweber8059 if you're sending a letter and going NC, it's too late for an apology. Some of you are so eager to believe that all of these people are going NC for no reason... Going NC is a difficult choice to make. Parents, family, they don't own anybody. People are free to leave and they're fully capable of knowing when they should.
edit: the apology isn't wished-for anymore. youve heard the phrase "too little, too late"?
My bio dad refused to let me have privacy as a teenager. Closing my bedroom door all the way was a terrible injustice to him (on top of all the other fights we had). I saved up money and moved out at 20. Wanted to move out at 18, but that wasn't financially possible. I was close to my mother, but it was literally a "I can't stand dad not letting me have privacy as an adult, and you won't put your foot down, so I'm doing it myself." My mom unfortunately died suddenly just 3 or 4 years later and my "dad" barricaded into my life without asking for good times to come over (and it was all about him) for 7 years until I went no contact. And I tried finding the middle ground. My mom's dying wish was for us to stay together as a family. But the stress was mentally killing me. And bio dad wouldn't budge. It was his dysfunctional way or the highway. I had to take the highway...
Bro... I reconnected with my dad but stopped seeing him again and never went to see him before he died. Mum and one of my brothers went to his funeral (dude asked why the rest of us didn't go, make it make sense). Dad was a diabetic, drunken pervert who was alright sometimes (just enough to still be called 'dad' but my oldest brother uses his name). So you can guess how much hardship we went through, mum protected us the best way she could in her situation but it became one of those 'let the devil have it's way if it means peace' situations (Not sure how that makes any sense but okay).
@rainyfeathers9148 I completely understand what you mean man. That's how my mom was with my dad. Except we were gaslit and told his behavior was normal.
Patrick it took me 3 years with weekly therapy on top of following your content to fully process me going no contact with my parents. My therapist did strongly suggest that i go no contact because my parents were vehemently against me getting the medical care i needed with my rare and life threatening health condition. They criticized me for being weak and being fat and ridiculed me for wanting to see a doctor. To the point that they’d ask me if i was “all cured” every time i talked to them and the only acceptable answer was yes. It was only after i went no contact i felt safe to seek out medical help and i have been eons better since. Now looking back i realize that i could literally have died otherwise. So your comparison to domestic violence is spot on. It’s a matter of life and death. You and my therapist by supporting me through my no contact journey have saved my life. Thank you for all that you do for this community and shame on NYT.
I'm so glad you're here, and I'm proud of you.
I'm glad you're still with us. Proud of you! ❤️
There can be no neutrality in the face of abuse.
If someone IS neutral in the face of abuse, that only helps the abuser, and further harms the victim.
Thank you for your amazing work, Patrick. Keep fighting the good fight. You are truly helping change the world, for the better. ❤
Patrick, after watching your video I am immensely impressed by your complete lack of snark or passive aggression or sarcasm or any other shame-fueled reaction to this article. I don’t know how many times you had to record this 😂 but you did an amazing job of clarifying your message without sounding defensive. If anyone doesn’t think you’ve done your own inner work, they can just watch you respond to character assassination in the most “rise above” kind of way I think I’ve ever seen. Bravo.
Same here!!
I agree. Well done, Patrick.
That's the first thing I thought! Patrick comes across (and is) self-assured and lets his work speak for itself. Well done! 👏🏽👏🏽
Completely agree. Such a helpful model of how a thoughtful and focused response looks like in the face of harmful behavior.
I'm 68, have survived toxic original family dynamics, and I am pronouncing this NYT writer/reporter as absolutely clueless. The critical issue of childhood trauma has been taken up by social media in part because media institutions like the NYT don't address topics of emotional and verbal abuse, in a family of origin or in a marriage or relationship. Also, The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has never recognized childhood emotional trauma as a problem.
As a child and teenager, I was repeatedly told by my father, a garage alcoholic, that I was stupid, a loser, and could never do anything right. There was no happy conversation in that family, or laughter, unless it was at someone else's expense. Also, no singing, dancing, family game night fun, etc.
One Sunday morning, when I was around six, my dad shot my black and white tuxedo cat, because she bit my mom, who had stepped on the cat's paw with a high heeled shoe. I didn't see the shooting in our back yard, but I heard it. Another time, when I was around the same age, I was with my dad and brother (age 16) in our old truck on a dirt road in the New Mexico desert, where we lived. My dad stopped the truck and we all got out. Before I knew it, they had gotten back into the truck. My dad started up the vehicle. They were looking at me out the back window and laughing, pretending to drive off and leave me. I was crying.
My mother was always silent as a grave. She had no friends, interests, or hobbies, and not surprisingly, no opinions or preferences. She came from unsupportive eastern European immigrant parents; they would not let her attend college, because she would just wind up getting married, so what was the point of her education? As a teenager, I managed to get my parents and older brother into a session with a counselor. My father shut down the session, yelling at the therapist that I was the family problem, that everything was my fault. My brother and sister are 10 and 13 years older than me, and they have always demeaned and dismissed me. I cut off contact with my siblings years ago; my sister could only yell at me that I was a failure. I loved art and reading books and animals. I eventually became a writer, but my family ignored any of my interests or accomplishments. My brother would never talk about family dynamics or my sister's attitude, during our phone conversations years ago. I was careful not to blast my sister, but my brother would not talk at all about the family. He took no interest at all in me, and could only talk about the weather.
The NYT author seems to believe that only physical abuse is a valid complaint. The old 'sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me.' I hope that we all know better.
Addition: I stopped not contacting my siblings after my sister (13 years older than me) sent a disjointed, rambling, angry letter accusing me of everything short of causing the fall of the Roman empire. She vaguely accused me of wrecking her career plans to be a college professor, not explaining exactly how I'd done that, of causing every problem our family had experienced, yadda, yadda. At that time, I had not heard of Tik Tok and barely looked at Facebook. The NYT writer might want to instead blast authors such as Lindsay Gibson, who wrote Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents; there are many other books on the topics of childhood trauma and neglect, available through libraries and Amazon.
I am so proud of you. It is easier to get out of systems that don't serve you when you are the black sheep. Ask me how I know. ❤
I'm so sorry that you had to go through this as a child. It's incredibly sad that adults do this to their own children and rarely take responsibility for their actions.
I agree wholeheartedly with you - this NYT piece proves that many people still believe that because you're related to someone then anything goes. And you should put up with it because "It's your Dad" or "She's your mum". This kind of thinking is damaging to the victims - when you insinuate this type of abuse must come from outside the family and not from their family members. The truth makes people very uncomfortable.
I was often asked why I Just couldn't get along with my mother? Why couldn't I just bury the hatchet? My brothers still go to great lengths to remind that me that I only have one mother. And I have to remind them that is just as well because one mother was much more than I could handle.
Even now, in my 50s, after 27 years of no contact I'm still in recovery from the damage done.
The NYT should have done more research, and tried at least to write a balanced article. The big question would be what happened to us as we grew up - the children of parents who at the very least just didn't care and at worst deliberately abused us.
Invalidating any other type of abuse would be unacceptable. However a child who depended on their parents for everything and never had their needs met, was never safe, or loved is somehow fair game because we're adults?
Singling out individuals who survived child abuse and neglect for going no contact is a low blow. NYT ought to be ashamed.
The trolls on this channel will not read this history because it counters their overwhelming DARVO bs. I am so sorry your family was so awful. I am so glad you git away ❤
@@BarbAwb I'm so sorry you had to deal with all of that as a child.
It’s wild how much I relate to this from the mother with zero interests, to the dad mistreating animals, and the brother that’s completely unwilling to talk about any of it! My dad even did the same thing with the car once-I was probably around 8 years old and he drove off as I was crying, thinking it was a joke. Ultimately, my dad ended up dying from an overdose in February and my mom still has zero goals in life
I was impressed that your work made The NY Times. It made me hopeful that the good work you are doing is moving from cutting edge to more accepted. Please don’t stop being you and helping us who struggle.
Same - I saw the article and was surprised at how they personally mentioned his name … and completely misrepresented him with that screen grab
It's courageous to say what's true behind closed doors. It's hard to stand up for yourself when those who are supposed to love you most, act in bad faith.
We're brave AF and we know it. We stand up to shame and blame and walk out the other side.
Reminds me of Shawshank and crawling through a river of s*** to get to the other side. Freedom, baby!
One of my favorite movies
@@GoldBerryTarot me too
Abusive parents will look anywhere but within for the cause of the separation with a child they think they love.
They will blame anyone or anything but themselves.
I am a Chinese mother and estranged from my daughter over a year ago and want to share my story. My daughter has been struggling with addiction for years and I was totally consumed by trying to “fix her” which led to her estrangement. For the first two months I felt hurt, ashamed and defensive thinking all the time and money I spent on her. Then the pain and desperation brought me to find my own therapist. Working on my own childhood attachment wounds made me understand more about her complaints. I was very codependent and enmeshed with her and emotionally absent when she was growing up. I do not know if what I did or didn’t do (I had no substance use issue nor physical abused her) justified her cutoff, but it gave me the space and willingness to focus on and improve myself. I am hopeful. I want to be a better mother and a better listener when she is ready to share her side story with me.
Oh my goodness, I hope that you see this response - I'm so moved reading your story. It's brought me so much hope, I've re-read it about five times! You sound like a wonderful mother. It takes courage to be willing to self-reflect like this and your own healing and unconditional approach will help you both so much when she is ready to return. I truly hope you will both reunite and become closer.
Thanks. Not being able to see her hurts, but it’s the pain that made me change. It was my bottom. I am thankful for what I am learning and becoming because of the estrangement.
@@msss485I hope more parents take the time to work on themselves as you have chosen to do. Good luck, and thank you for sharing.
I cut my mum off but I love her and wish her well and I know she's not gone. She's still where she always is living her daily life and she has lots of friends and support. So I try not to worry about her. I also don't resent her for the past. The reason I cut her off is because I want to stop abusive relationship dynamics from being in my life. I don't want more of the same. I told her for 5 years, you're welcome in my life but you have to respect my boundaries and listen to me. She actually did a lot of work and it was beautiful to see her self shine through.
Also I really like your post because i would really like these discussions about estranged parents to address the reality that parents are human and they are just doing what they can based on how they were raised. Our parents were children once to.
Gaslighting is something I was raised with that I believe my family of origin would not consider abuse.
And usually with gaslighting comes many other forms of abuse: manipulation, victim-blaming, invalidation, lies, etc. Very rarely would gaslighting be used alone. I'm sorry you went through that. ❤
@@NN-re7cy emotional neglect.
I'll never forget the terrible therapist who told me aurhoritatively that "therapy is successful when the client is able to have a pleasant cup of coffee with their parents." Took me many years to break free from this destructive, burdening view, as if it's all up to me
"parents are excused from abuse and neglect they did, but you, child, you're at fault for eternity and are a POS if you're not magically healed in adulthood" - basically what general society thinks.
Urgh - that’s so disappointing and irresponsible 😤
That’s horrible advice 😂
Perhaps if the parents were also clients, that might be true.
@@naysneedle5707 good point
I fled my family in 1973 and kept my distance until 1992 and then as an adult found nothing had changed. 2024 and you have helped me so much to understand why so many things still upset me because of childhood trauma. I have a good counselor and a working on how to have peace and serenity. Thank you for your videos.
My therapist has never encouraged me to go no contact. I've come to that conclusion on my own and she has been supportive of it.
I dunno maybe if all these people are saying they were abused as children it's because
They were abused as children.
Logical people will see this as a possibility and the rest of the enablers and abusers will try to gaslight and say abuse is "rare" and that lots of people estrange 'good' parents.
@@ellyk8834 I agree. I also think that some of these American parents who are estranged are in that position because they have chosen to support a discriminatory politician who caused millions of people's deaths and wants to take away people's rights.
They don't understand or seemingly care that this is a huge deal. They refuse to see their own discriminatory biases.
@@ellyk8834 That's because what most of society calls "good" is actually pretty darn toxic. Society hates people who have healthy standards.
@@ellyk8834I read that roughly 1/3 of marriages are “manipulative controlling” (to avoid the “A” word; gets tiresome having comments not post). And those are cases where both parties said vows! It’s likely worse when the parents aren’t ever married. So why is it hard to believe this many adults were traumatized as kids, again? 🤨
That is a wild theory. 😊
Patrick, you were misquoted and taken out of context in so many ways. I expect that the interviewer has a LOT of work to do on themselves, and is extremely unlikely to ever do it.
I am 74. My ACE score is 7. Mine was a military family and we were overseas during my middle teens, returning as I turned 18. I moved out of their home shortly thereafter, with my first paycheck of $38. They may have been typical, but never "normal." No contact was literally how I survived. As in, my brother was murdered, due to untreated severe child abuse.
They never, ever, considered themselves as anything but wonderful, we were ALWAYS to blame for the savage abuse. They claimed, vehemently, that we little kids, even babies, were awful. That they provided us idyllic childhoods. And regrettably, compared to theirs, it was.
Patrick, the work that you do, and the other therapists who listen to these grevious stories with compassion and hope, are keeping people alive. Therapy has kept me alive. Often I'm grateful.
But my reality was, and is, that if it were up to those abusers, they would rather see me dead, than happy. I was forced, by them, to choose between a very miserable and short life, passing along the inhuman abuse, and the very difficult and ultimately rewarding life given by no contact.
Agree. This really annoyed me: “You can join his “Monthly Healing Community,” where clients support each other in the lonely endeavor of disconnecting from family.” As if that’s the main purpose, or even *a* purpose, of the healing community.
Wow. Thank you for sharing. My heart goes out to you. Stay strong. Sending you love... 💜
I strongly relate to everything you said in your comment.
Thank you for sharing that.
so sorry to hear about your brother. hope you are doing well these days
I have wanted to cut my father out of my life since I was 17 years old (I'm 57 now). He beat me up and broke my arm. I spoke up for myself as he was accusing me of having sex with my boyfriend in his house. My brother was in the house with us and was in his room with his door open. I was in the kitchen washing dishes. Anyway, after 10 years of abuse, I snapped and yelled at my dad to stop accusing me of this. How dare I speak to him like I did. He taught me a lesson. In order to keep a relationship with my mom, I tolerated his BS. My mom died in Dec of 2019. Six months before she died, I told her I was done with him. She told me to fake it and take his money. My fam is messed up! Anyway I waited until last year to cut ties with my dad. I asked him why he was so abusive and mean to my mom, and to me He said he was never mean to her and never hit her. I was there when he hit her. Needless to say, he did not apologize or take responsibility for his abuse. I have since found out that my dad threatened to kill one of his sisters because when my mom found out my dad was having an affair, she asked my aunt who the other woman was. The other woman was a friend of my aunt. My aunt said she could not lie to my mom. So yeah, cutting ties from my dad is one of the healthiest things I have done. I no longer have to fake it for the sake of the family.
Sometimes the healing part is just moving on and letting people do what they want to do while you go your own way. Not keeping in touch or wondering what they are doing. Totally forgetting about them is so peaceful and freeing❤.
yeah. would love to do that but I'm dealing with a vulnerable dependent family member. it's gets complicated
The part that’s so hard is accepting that they’re going to just keep doing the same things forever. Once you do that then you can let them do that without being involved. Very freeing but to get to that acceptance is extremely painful because of how much we lose.
The article and its author lack vision and appear to be more threatened rather than cognizant of what Patrick supports if the patient chooses it. The article's author who is a therapist, gaslights those making a no contact decision rather than considering contexts where this is the healthiest option, like at the impossible impasse you mention.
Bravo Patrick.
I will continue to support you, respect you, learn from you, and, most importantly, listen to your courageous and insightful posts.
Thank you for everything.
I went no contact with my dad 13 years ago. I tried briefly messaging about 5 years ago and not even 2 weeks later I said - I’m done to him for good.
It had nothing to do with social media or trends.
I just had enough of it all. Best decision ever.
Congratulations, hopefully one day I'll be able to say that I went NC For the past 13 years. Stay strong
I'm so so so happy that this is being talked about. Enough of this silence, enough of this topic being a taboo, enough of parent superiority, enough. Thank you Patrick!
I am 71 and nearly killed myself because these kinds of things "never happened". I consequently have a long way to go even now, but thank God I now have troubles/problems that _exist_ and places to learn it's not all my fault!
I noticed how the article described you as having "trademark tousled hair" or something to that effect. As if you're the cool teacher sitting backwards on a chair. I don't remember a condescending characterizing physical description of anyone else mentioned. And the parents are bewildered and confused by estrangement literally made me laugh! No one wants to lose their family. Look at how much shit people put up with to avoid it. Your analogy about the violent partner is spot on. My parents failed me during the most vulnerable part of my life and refuse to accept the reality of my adult experiences. Why? Because I don't matter and should get in line just like they didn't matter and got in line? Their own child had to cut off contact just to get some peace. I don't want that for myself in 20 years so I'm going to take one for the team and they can shape up or ship out (I shipped them out, they suck).
I don't want a therapist who tells me what I want to hear. I want one that challenges me and forces me out of my comfort zone. I don't need a therapist to say "But your abuser loves you!" I want one that makes me realize I don't know what love is yet. I thought that being hit on by old men was normal. I want a therapist that teaches me a better normal.
Exactly. Sometimes we grow up where abuse is normalized and don’t know any better. People deserve to know what love and self-respect are. We deserve to make our lives better.
100%. I had a therapist when I was child who challenged me. It was painful but I knew I had to face it
People saying the bar of trauma is being lowered is like people saying the bar of dirty is being lowered because we're getting better at keeping the water supply clean and making sure people in the hospital don't get sepsis.
That's a really good way of putting it.
Ummm, no. It’s like saying there’s a high probability that you have a skewed perspective of how serious your problems are. I’m willing to bet that 75% of the people in these threads have no legit claims of abuse and need to figure out how to get their head out of their ass before everyone completely runs out of fucks to give.
Terrible analogy.
Family systems are longitudinal over generations & cutoffs play out in present relationships as well as in the next generation.
What you’re describing is the Anglocentric, western, entitled & simplistic take on the entire matter.
Empirically, why is there a direct correlation between a mental health crisis & increase in rate of cutoffs?
This, like so many others, is an entitled yank idea that’s failing. The evidence shows it clearly, not anecdotes on Utube 😅
@@mgkosyeah that person is awful you're right
SO WELL SAID ❤️
Thank you for your work on changing the black and white thinking about family relationships.
I cut my family off twenty five years ago. I took so much heat for it, and carried a lot of shame for years as a result, BUT my wellbeing dramatically improved. It was the start of my long healing journey. Now I thank my brave former self, and even understand my former relatives. Personally, I am not ever going back, but each person has to make these decisions themselves. I find it interesting listening to the howls of outrage from those left behind, maybe they could try a little self reflection? Yeah, I know...
I liked you called them former relatives. I didn't have an idea that blood relatives can become ex too. Interesting thought. Need to reflect more on that.
One of my friends said the other day that I am hanging on to the past and though I didn't agree because I thought it was the present and ongoing, but I couldn't shake off the thought. And then a realisation dawned on me that I can decide if the things are going to be in the past and this is one of the view points that can place things in the past.
@@meghasanyal4861processing the past is not the same thing as hanging on to it. 🫶
“Howls of outrage” . . . Aptly put my friend. ❤
@@meghasanyal4861That is a profound realisation, thank you for sharing it.
As a therapist, ive learned that toxic and abusive people always want to have someone to blame for their consequences. It is sad. Bc they refuse to have any kind of insight.
No contact is NOT a new thing, but it’s more visible now with social media.
I’ve heard multiple stories where family member moved out and they lost track of them. Also after children were getting married, they would maybe visit the parents twice a year.
A percentage of the population has always chosen estrangement. The current discussion has to do with the drastic increase in the number of people who are choosing estrangement.
@@susanharbison2551 was there really a study of the number of estranged families in the last 100 years? I doubt that.
@@RainbowSunshineRain There was a study done in 1982 but I don't know if it had anything to do with finding out how common estrangement was at that time.
What is the point you are trying to make?
We don't need a study to tell us that it has always happened but it was rare compared to what is happening now.
@@susanharbison2551 My point is that estrangement was very common, even more common than today.
@@RainbowSunshineRain How can you know that? We have current stats, but where are the stats that show the numbers from 50 years ago?
The NY Times hasn't been worth even using as a cat box liner for over a decade now. Sad. It used to be a reputable organization.
I disagree. Their recipes are 🔥😂
I disagree, it's only been 8 years that I found them intolerable.
@@youareonlyhope I like Mark Bittman's stuff and own several of his cookbooks. The other stuff, not as much
I use the NYT for my Papier-mâché projects. It's great.
@@youareonlyhopeI stay for the games
Thank you for talking through this. It's painful to hear from therapists who act like folks are overreacting by making this impossible decision.
I would LOVE to be interviewed as “scientific evidence” that going no contact does have benefits. “Scientists” cant prove it, but the people that are living it everyday, can.
I think if they researched it they would be able to prove it. Autoimmune disorders. Inflammatory responses. Gut problems. Cortisol levels.
@@fighttheevilrobots3417 3 of 4 kids in my family of origin have autoimmune disorders. So far. The only undiagnosed one is the youngest and they absolutely have symptoms. The proof is in our bodies.
@@fighttheevilrobots3417this！Hit right on the nail about the auto-immune system diseases.
Me too 😂 Where can I sign up?
@@marymac9303 yup. I was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis last year.
why don’t we organize a letter and have many people sign it and send it to the new york times so they see there is interest and readership for a better article?
Better yet, pitch an article to a competing outlet.
I like the idea. But my hard experience is that they will never ever hear it. Even if they hear something in the distance, it cannot possibly apply to the very ones who are the worst.
I’d sign
I’d sign. Let’s do that
I would sign as well
I’m going low contact with my father and it’s been better for both of us. That article is nuts. Thanks for being a better force for good in this crazy world
I grew up in an abusive home. My mother died when I was 7, my father when I was 12. I am the youngest of 5. As an adult, my relationships with my siblings continued the abuse. To protect myself, I became estranged from my siblings. I currently have contact with my oldest sister, and we are not terribly close. And I am still alive. I believe I would not be had I continued in my family of origin environment. For some of us, estrangement = safety.
Survival my friend.
Patrick, media often likes to take things out of context,, twist peoples words, or exaggerate because they have a clear incentive to do so. "If it bleeds it leads." "money, power, sex, and dead babies" are things my journalism teacher told us in a semester class in college. Boring or uneventful stories don't get attention and clicks, therefore generating less ad revenue.
Disclosure: I'm not a journalist but I did take a journalist class, one in high school and another in college.
Don't let this article discourage you. It is sexier to say "this is a new trend on tik tok and social media" rather than have a long (but more accurate) explanation of what's really going on. You are a great source of healing for many folks who have difficult relations with parents, partners, siblings, etc.
I will add that I have noticed many younger folks (especially Gen Z) adopt language such as "You're being abusive" or "You're being manipulative" when it's completely unwarranted. Unfortunately this "therapy speak" has been adopted by people who quite frankly, don't know what they are talking about. This does not discredit the fact that many people do have abusive or complicated relations with loved ones. I once saw a child in a supermarket have a meltdown because his dad wouldn't buy him a churro. Is that abusive? No that's called parenting. (I'm not a parent myself so I don't want to comment, just sharing something I observed). There is a big difference between discipline and abuse.
I have a few friends and acquaintances who cut ties with their parents. It is not my place to judge them or question their decision. I have heard some horror stories of bad parents that would make your skin crawl.
Keep up the good work.
As a therapist myself, I can think of examples where being neutral is unhelpful when dealing with traumatised individuals. When an individual has experienced abuse - sexual physical or emotional - it can be hard for them to approach experiences from a healthy and centred perspective. I’ve had explain the risks of leaving children unattended with a family member who is a child sexual abuser - the individual just couldn’t see the issue as their own sexual abuse had been normalised. I’ve also had clients ask me if a relationship situation is a safety issue because they are not able to tell for themselves. From my own experience as a family scapegoat, my internal compass was completely off for many years, and I remember a therapist saying to me “you know that’s sexual abuse” - I had no idea.
Therapist here, too. I completely agree. I am also not neutral when I have clients who are victims of SA and they blame themselves. I gently tell them they are NEVER to blame for the actions of someone violating them. Obviously, we try to be neutral, but there are specific instances where it is better to speak up and help your client not accept responsibility for something they had no control over being done to them.
You have gained a subscriber. Thank you so much for seeing our trauma. I'm 38 and have been my American living in Okinawa, Japan. My parents never understand why I do my best to stay away from them. When try to explain that the beatings with heavy belts for nothing or being yelled at because they had a long day as a kid is seared in my brain they act like it wasn't a big deal. IT WAS TO ME. These are thing I don't discus, I have never told my wife of 11 years. Again I thank you for seeing us.
Using the term ‘trend’ implies that going no contact is something anyone can choose to do on a whim. As you have said many times… choosing to sever from any toxic relationship may take years to decide and usually results from a desperate effort to save yourself from ongoing abuse and danger to physical or mental health.
All you say about the time and hard work is 💯. Or should I just feel good that I am finally trendy at 71? What a ridiculous article!
The hardest thing for me has been the realization that most of my trauma is centered around my strict religious upbringing. People think that I’m claiming PTSD for going to church as a kid, when it was so much more involved and runs so much deeper than that. It also makes it so difficult to deal with in the present because my mother is still extremely religious and therefore sees nothing wrong with how I was raised. To her, all of my problems are still my fault because “I was a bad kid.” I literally had a psychiatrist roll her eyes at me once when she asked about instances of childhood trauma and I had a very difficult time articulating it, I’ve read her notes and they basically say “client claims trauma from going to church as a kid.”
being raised in a cult-like environment is extremely traumatising. it might help you to read about cult behaviours so you can use that vocaulary to describe what happened
There are a lot of therapists and doctors who are conservative, religious, and hide that agenda because their colleagues are more often liberal and secular. Many of the conservative therapists have themselves mistreated their own children, went through mistreatment themselves, believe that God gives Christian parents a pass on everything, and they will covertly abuse their patients to "keep them in line" with the status quo of a Christian conservative ideal of parents are right and holy, children are wrong and evil.
Some people just can't accept that maybe they're part of a violent and hateful blood cult and how that can be damaging to a kid. Teaching a kid they're sinful and dirty and going to hell unless they obey is abuse. It just is.
People are clueless as to how involved a "church" can be. They don't realize how many times some people have to go to "church." How it tore them away from relationships with good friends & family who did nothing wrong except for "making a mistake" or being another religion. They don't understand the depth of trauma some people might have. Or how those people can just be left with this complete feeling that they will never be good enough.
I question the mental health of the author who completely shows lack of understanding for the deep trauma one experiences as the choice of going no contact is considered, let alone executed. The author of the NYT article is dismissive of the abuse, telling me the author has not faced her own sh!t! The author, stating a therapist is to be neutral, displays no credibility at all as she clearly takes sides with the abusive parent, throwing the traumatized offspring under the bus. Patrick's transparency is refreshing & empowering while the NYT author hides behind what is likely her own unfaced trauma.
Going no contact was the best thing I ever did. I can not emphasize enough how much happier and healthier I am.
People who have known me since I was a child/teen are the ones that especially notice the difference. It’s not just in my attitude and over all happiness, but it’s easily seen physically too.
I look better. Not just a little, a lot better. My skin is glowing. My teeth are whiter. My eye bags have disappeared. I have a genuine flush in my once pale cheeks.
I firmly believe that going NC with a truly toxic and abusive family is the BEST thing that someone in our unfortunate situation can do for themselves and no privileged person who actually has no idea what it’s like can convince me otherwise.
The estranged parents in that article were showing their true colors. The estranged mother who complained she was missing all her daughter's "milestones"--her 30th birthday, etc. Good grief, she's not 3, she's 30, and would probably like to be out on the town with her friends or her boyfriend--sans mom! The other was a quote from Coleman, describing when an adult child tells her parents that they were abusive and wants to go no contact and the parents' reaction was "like, What the hell are you talking about?" Not exactly a promising start to that conversation! Already they're not adding up.
I just want to say that your videos, education, and RRP group have saved my life. I can not overstate how much I appreciate you and your bravery for making this content available to all us survivors
Finding Patrick this community has Finally given me My Life yes My Life not the one my toxic family wrote the script for. I look forward to your response Patrick💜
Life is too precious to allow abuse.
i cut off my mom years ago. she didn’t love me. i never miss her. not all parents are good parents. not all parents are good people.
My therapist noticed that I needed someone to give me "permission" to go no contact with my abusive parents. And so she did. She did what I needed her to do. She reparented me alongside myself, and together we decided that I couldn't keep subjecting myself to abuse, suicide threats, harassment and so on.
It took me ten years to leave, another decade to start healing. I tried everything before going no contact. I'm staying no contact.
I always think that people do tend to forget how much effort people have put into the relationships before going no contact because - well - no contact and family! It's always important that people do recognise this - and if people aren't appreciating this - then that's pretty much on them really, not those who have been put into that place where they need to and have tried everything even to their own detriment :(
Take care and well done for all the amazing work you put in there and I hope for you that you have some supportive friends to keep you safe in all ways now x
Something I'm pretty conscious of nowadays to do with no contact is that there are surely all kinds of double standards for what kind of abuses warrant estrangement. Like overt types such as sexual or physical abuse are fine to cut off for, but if it's psychological or emotional, it's too harsh or unfair on the family and the defenses kick in for that. So what you get is a minimization of covert abuse that can have profound mental health consequences for people's lives and that's just not right.
The bar for trauma hasn't been lowered, survivors have better access to tools and help. Thank you.
Children can't really defend themselves or explain things clearly because they don't have the words, and parents usually take the side of the abusive parent because they identify more with it.
There's nothing a narcissist hates more than people who have boundaries.
This is basically a response to all of the abusive parents who aren't going to get free old age care because the hold of the church is no longer as strong, telling us to always turn the other cheek to the old folks no matter how abusive.
The moral of the story is don't have kids to have free slaves for life.
Conservatives want to end Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security - the conservatives call these "entitlement programs" to fool their followers into also demanding an end to "entitlement". Every American worker pays into social security and Medicare until they retire. It's a tax, not an entitlement. What is going on is that all businesses have to pay into Medicare and social security for each employee also - and business has never wanted to do that. Also, if there is no more Medicare and social security, who is going to take care of all the old people - who almost never save anything, much less save enough, for their retirement? The conservatives want to dump the responsibility for the elderly onto the children and grandchildren - just like in China and India and the Philippines and other countries where there is no retirement and no safety net. Children from these countries often talk about how, after they made it to America, they are made responsible for sending money back home to take care of the poor helpless family left behind - and how many had to make the hard decision cut the family off after they discovered that they were being financially exploited and abused to keep those American dollars flowing in. The stories are heartbreaking - one was a mom who lied that the family home burned down and money was needed to rebuild. It was a lie- mom was using the money to buy real estate and make herself rich as a slumlord. Conservatives want women to be the free labor that capitalism requires to get even wealthier - free labor for child care, housewife, and caretaker to the elderly. She must work free, unselfishly for everyone, because God says she exists to serve , she must never complain, never be sick herself, and must be obedient to parents and spouses for life.
This whole energy of "it's a trend" or "it's something that's done casually" is the same that's been directed at LGBT+ people for ages. The total dismissal of everything we go through, and reducing the experience to the moment when we finally act. Discounting the years, perhaps even decades of struggle, of figuring out who we are and what we want and what we believe, and tweezing that out of the societal and familial pressure to conform. We go through all of that, only to be told that it's a phase, or we only did this because we saw it on Tiktok. It's maddening. And it's as wrong now as it ever was. It's the serenity prayer of the parent who chooses to bury their head in the sand and wants to believe they've done no wrong to you.
Excellent point. And LGBTQ people have had chosen families for generations.
PTSD is real. When you spend time with people who are repeating the same behaviors that take you back to old traumas, it’s destabilizing and draining. Limiting contact is critical to safeguard your own mental health.
You are setting the gold standard for addressing these issues ⭐⭐⭐ You are our spokesperson!
I am 64 years old. I started counseling when I was 28 years old. I've had well over 20 years of counseling, sobbing for hours, reading multiple books on ACOA, went to codependency meetings, studied John Bradshaw read his books, watched his entire video series. You name it I tried it. Not once did any counselor mention going no contact to me or discuss estrangement. I chose on my own to go no contact without any advice from anyone because I was tired of the treatment of neglect, being ignored, being treated like I didnt exist.
You are correct Patrick when you use the word delusional. They are delusional.
You are the best ❤❤❤
You hit the nail on the head. Some people are incapable of grasping that family members can be aggressively toxic toward another family member. This is what causes no contact so the person can heal.
If you have parents who did the silent treatment, they have gone no contact.
If you have parents who didn't give sh* about your breakfast, your homework, your sleeping time, your clothes, your medical appointments, your friends, you not having friends, your grades, your room, your mental health, they have gone no contact. And all of a sudden you are to blame? Such BS.
Thank you Patrick, you help us thinking the hitherto unthought thoughts. They were there all the time, they just needed the right words and you give these words freely on your social media accounts. Beyond thankful. ❤
A parent who gives their young child the silent treatment is not doing anything close to the "no contact" we speak of with estrangement.
"If you have parents who didn't give sh* about your breakfast, your homework, your sleeping time, your clothes, your medical appointments, your friends, you not having friends, your grades, your room, your mental health, they have gone no contact."
I don't know what age children you are talking about, but plenty of children are responsible enough to take care of most of those thing by the time they are 6 or 7. Look at latchkey kids. Sometimes these kids are forced to grow up young because of parental negligence, but often it is out of necessity in a single parent household. Most kids should be capable of taking care of themselves by age 10. All of the kids I knew, were independent by age 13 at the latest. We were responsible for ourselves for almost everything. Obviously we couldn't drive or set up Dr.s appt.s for ourselves, but we involved adults to help us with such things. We were all quite content to be independent and we were more than ready for the adult world by the time we turned 18.
If you are talking about parents totally ignoring everything about you during your entire childhood, if they never did anything nice for you, that is entirely different.
@@susanharbison2551 Sorry to hear you were parentified like that.
@anner.413 right on!
@@lisa2000geese You don't understand the meaning of the word parentified. Teaching children to take care of themselves at a young age is not parentification, neglect, or abuse. It is good for them. Look it up.
@@susanharbison2551 I am still sorry to hear about what you and others you knew growing up experienced.
As someone who went no contact with my family of origin entirely 10 years ago, I can honestly say that it was the best decision I ever made. It saved my life, and to anyone who has gone no contact as adult, you are allowed to protect yourself, your sanity, peace and happiness. You don't owe your parents anything, and you deserve to live a life outside of abuse.
The straw that broke the camel’s back for me is when I found out that my parents were going behind my back and lying to other family members about my husband’s character. Telling them that he’s a narcissist… which… projection much? My dad pleaded with me to remember the efforts they made to mend bridges. I told him he should have thought of that before he opened his big mouth. My husband is my best friend and my greatest treasure. I went no contact because I choose him. And I will choose him every. single. time.
I'm a therapist. There is a backlash right now to our work, because we are everywhere culturally. But I believe a reactionary politics is one which is defined by choosing to scapegoat one group for society's major structural problems, and in this case that scapegoat is therapists. Sure, I can see how therapists could do harm to some families, or just spoonfeed "You were traumatized" to a client for years. Having said that, there is no way this worst-case scenario is as extreme or intense as the messages that society and capitalism give to people which scream YOU MUST BE A SOLO SURVIVALIST INDIVIDUAL AT ALL TIMES AND FOREVER UNTIL THE GRAVE. Separation from community, family and friends is a profound and complex problem which was created by a ton of incredibly intense economic forces. Just as a huge broad topic, the very fact that people felt so trapped with their nuclear families was a situation created by society -- not therapists. It is not the original way humans evolved -- we lived in communities, not nuclear families. To blame the therapist for being part of a system of isolation is totally unfair. We did not create the system of isolation in which people are now drowning.
Very much agreed and well said. It’s disturbing
They're not smart enough to see that they're now doing exactly what they were accused of doing previously.
I agree. Cognitive scientist George Lakoff, in his 2014 book Don't Think of an Elephant, talks about "strict father morality" vs. "nurturant parent morality" as the primary frames for US politics. I feel that in the past decade, we've moved to "domestic abuser amorality." I see the same patterns everywhere--in families, in politics, in toxic job situations, in churches that shield sex offenders. The Republican candidate is a rapist--his family is the stereotypical narcissistic abuser family. I think a lot of people trapped in his cult are those with unexamined childhood wounds whose trauma-bonding has triggered them into the fawn response instead of standing up and fighting.
This is a terrible truth. It's frustrating and terrifying seeing this deadly system getting the double-down emphasis it gets.
We need community, correct. We do not need toxic families, we need healthy families, and if we can’t change our families (impossible), then it’s ok to leave the family and have the support of the community, a healthy part of a community
21:10 YES. My parents STILL blame the college I went to for "leading me astray" even though I graduated almost fifteen years ago! They want to blame everything else rather than believe I am a competent, intelligent adult whose opinions differ from theirs.
The dokter of my mother adviced me to go no contact with my narcsistic mother because he saw her abusing me.I was 36 years at that time .His advice saved my live.I still recover from her abuse also as an adult ,I felt save in this world when I new she died.now I'm 54 and still healing in my one way but I advice people to think about going no contact It can help you to heal
I think that in the US there is an overwhelming opinion that parents should "control" their children rather than letting the child grow up into their own organically. I believe if the parent is truly a narcissist they won't care if you go no contact. I left my family of origin 4 yrs ago and i know for a fact that if I were to die tomorrow, she would take it all in stride and not shed one tear for me at all. If I have no purpose for her then she no longer has any use for me in her life. It is as if I died or something. Narcissistic parents are dangerous because they lack empathy. You cannot raise a child without it, that's what causes the psychological problems for the child later on. I am only stating this as my own experience and for context I am 55 yrs old and it never changes no matter their age or yours.
My family of origin discarded me, at 53yrs, when I asked for some space.
It's the most genuine thing they've ever done towards my recovery. The shock of it all woke me up💡
Thank you Patrick for all that you do💪🙏💛
I come from an NPD family system. My mum is a sadist, she relished the pain she caused. She curated her abuse, using our humanity and vulnerability against us. My father's second wife was equally abusive. We had no safe adult in our lives. NC saved me. Period.
What I'm also getting from this, is that abusive parents who have been cut off are more vocal than survivors of child abuse, and thus people identify with the parents instead of the children (the way this journalist seemingly did). Maybe because it's adults who go no contact, not minors ; people who have no experience of child abuse don't think of it as something adults live with, we're supposed to "get over it" by the time we're adults. As I often say, when you're a minor, you can't talk about your abuse, and when you're an adult, you're supposed to have digested it so you can't talk about your abuse... basically noone ever hears about what it's really like.
It certainly makes me want to be more vocal about my experiences both before and after going NC, and hope that we collectively remind society what trauma really looks like and why it's not just a whim or a trend.
the double bind you describe deserves an article of its own!
It is true what you said.
As a minor/child, you cant talk about abuse because you dont know anything about real life yet.
As an adult, you cant talk about abuse because youre supposed to get over it. And you have work to do.
If youre dead, you also cant talk about it because youre already dead.
@@miscielrossvillegas6307 hehe. I think you may have described my quandary perfectly 😆😏
What you experienced with this article is a specific trigger for me; having my words used against me by publicly using them out of context. If I were you, I would be livid and this video would be a trauma response, bc I would feel once again taken advantage of when I extended trust.
Thank you Patrick. I’m a parent doing my own work, with an adult child who is NC with me while she does her work, and maybe beyond. It’s my job to honor her request, be available if she ever is ready to talk to me without shaming or judgement about her choice. She knows I love her and I’m deeply sorry about anything I did as a parent that resulted in her decision to distance from family.
In our family system there is/ was a lot of inappropriate sexual behavior that I now see as abuse, such as my children seeing cousins being groomed and abused by relatives outside our family unit, that due to our generational family values was ignored or considered normal. I loved what you said about that here. Thanks to people like you I now know it is not to be tolerated or should never have been something my children were privie to. There was more that wasn’t seen as abuse when I was growing up that I know now is.
Another thing; the NYT misinformed in an article about myself and an ex spouse years ago too. The articles are written with whatever slant they want even if untrue or misleading. Keep doing the good work of educating! Appreciate you
thank you for speaking up here a d also for doing the work to repair and heal without expectation of "reward" I wish you well and I hope a better journalist tells your story correctly one day ❤
As a social science researcher who sources from social science and science literature the professional arguing against no contact, all I can say is: Yikes! The definition of trauma has hardly been flushed out, let alone broadening it to the point of watering it down (the way the anti-side individual is framing it). It also misses the context of the generational inheritance of shame that has happened for millennia, which has existed alongside a lack of practising self-awareness making an individual fail to understand how to take accountability for their harmful actions. Second, yikes. Cultivating self-awareness can take years and folks who choose to abuse are in the end of the line when it comes to possessing this quality. Staying around people who live in tornadoes of shame and who then choose to truly take harmful abusive actions against others, with no self-awareness, is not it. It really is the more 4.0 version of improving society by taking no-contact.
In the end I'd say the following to the anti-no contact person: the universe created connection and the universe created disconnection; furthermore all family is found family even the ones we were born into - my parents weren't siblings but rather "found" each other; and lastly, I'd say our family systems- healthy and abusive have not been living in true intimacy ever, so it's time for a change to create a standard of what true intimacy and closeness is- what we have been doing in the past in 99% of families has just never been the model. Some of us are trying to change that model so the world has more true intimacy and closeness by bravely going beyond default attachment/magnetism largely based on sharing genetics and truly making real connections...and in particular around people who are parasitic in their behaviour.
The resources are out there for those individuals to heal, but self-awareness for accountability is first. It will always start with self-awareness. If that doesn't change than those folks will just become fortunately obsolete and the rest of us and the generations that follow will have a more beautiful life because we have decided to choose love over living around someone else's self hate and tolerating it as punching bags.
It's impressive how gracefully Patrick handled this situation, given the obvious distortions of reality the writer uses as weapons in the article. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼