This reminds me of a Wind Waker meme, where Link is looking... let's say half-asleep, and he says, "There's like this castle in a magic bubble on the ocean floor. I went there in my talking dragon boat." My contribution: "I swear! I saw my boat talking to a fishman right after I left the temple where I mind-controlled a flying tree-person. How? With a magic conductor's baton, of course."
The fishmen are clearly the reincarnated spirits of Tingle's victims, and the service that the King of Red Lions provided to them was getting Tingle arrested in the first place.
The death of the King of Hyrule in the Wind Waker, to me, is one of the most saddening moments in Zelda, and one of the few moments a video game made me cry while playing it. His recognition that he is ultimately a product of the old Hyrule and its fatal mistakes, Link reaching out to him and the King briefly reaching out his own arm, clearly wanting to go with Link, but ultimately drowning with Hyrule, content that he, "scattered the seeds of the future", and then seeing the lifeless King of Red Lions at the end; it was all very moving.
I started playing the game when I was 7 so I didn’t truly understand what happened until I was older. Zelda endings are known to be sad but this one takes the cake for me.
I like this theory! But think it's easier to believe that Fish-Men are Hylian sailors who drowned at sea, and are cursed to become fish. That explains why the barmaid had a relation with a fish. It was her past lover who died at sea and came back as a fish. 🐟
IIRC, doesn't the game state that the waters are cursed to turn things into monsters like the Lost Woods in OOT? Hence why most of the Zora moved away during the flood, but if not all moved then they might have devolved back into more monster like forms closer to the river Zora. If the king saw this and hired them to help the royal family as informants rather than treating them like monsters and killing them that could explain the debt. It's doesn't explain Gillian's fishy taste in boyfriends, but there are weider characters out there
For a moment there i thought there was this weird meme version of Drake's mom (from Drake & Josh) where she goes "WHAAT?" because QUE means literally WHAT in spanish and its a meme over here in LATAM
One thing I speculated: that Jabun was the guardian deity of the Fishmen in the same manner that Valoo is to the Rito or the Great Deku Tree to the Koroks.
A village’s worth of Hylians either died or were displaced thanks to Ganondorf’s attack on Greatfish Isle, prior to the events of the story. Perhaps it is they who are the Fishmen. They were resurrected into their new forms by Jabun, at the behest of the King of Red Lions
So happy to see a good ol' zelda theory video about an older game again! I feel like with all the excitement lately with Tears, Botw, Echoes, the book, the lego deku tree... these have fallen by the wayside lately. But they always bring me so much joy!
I always liked to think they were guards or soldiers of Hyrule during the reign of Daphnes. When the flood hit, King Daphnes ordered them to the highest peaks and they went to the islands and lived normal lives until he summoned them. When Ganondorf returned, he knew the hero would eventually show up, so he dispatched his soldiers to each of the islands under the guise of fish so that Ganondorf wouldn't discover them. The neck pain is because they're still not used to their transformed bodies.
Considering Maggie wants to marry a Moblin, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume Gillian is into fishmen. I mean, that's why it's "TOP SECRET", after all.
Somehow I never realized that there was actually a "dear Gillian" on the island! In my head it was pronounced with a hard G (I have a cousin with the same name and that's how she pronounces it) and was just a fish-related pun. Y'know....GILL-ian....
know what, the Fishmen are very similar tot he japanese myth of the Ningyo, who were fish with human faces and the possible ancient life spans could be a reference to how eating a Ningyo would make you immortal
The forsaken fortress was said to once belong to a band of thieves. What if Gannondorf cursed the original occupants turning them into fish men and the king of red lions helped them escape and get them settled into their new existence. Edit: I would also like to point out that many enemies in the game have a similar if not same yellow and red eye pattern. This may suggest some prior involvement with Gannondorf who himself has yellow eyes with red pupils. Perhaps they were monsters created by Gannondorf who were liberated by the king.
I really like this theory actually! Would also explain why Gillian's former boyfriend is such a secret. Not only did she date a man turned fish, but a THIEF turned fish!
I like this perspective a lot. Ganondorf's powers are shown to be pretty intense, but we never see much of a display of King Daphnes' power beyond possessing a specific boat, so the problem I had with the theories Zeltik outlines is: how would the King have had the ability to turn anyone into fish? Meanwhile Ganondorf is shown to have conjuration, cursing, and corruption abilities in Windwaker, so it would not be a stretch to think Ganondorf would be capable of turning these people into Fishmen, and the King's favor having something more to do with improving their lives after that one way or another.
Given the Sheikah's history of serving the Hyrule royal family, I don't think it would make sense for a transformed Sheikah to speak to the King so informally. Another question is why would the Sheikah owe him a debt and then peace out when they fulfill it? I can't think of anything that would connect the Sheikah to fish or anything else in this game, aside from a few small symbols somewhere. Do we know Link's Grandma's name? What if she was Impa or a descendant? I dunno, that's all I got
@@fuzzydude64 it would make sense because the kingdom of Hyrule is no more and it's been so long that maybe the fish themselves don't remember their lives as the Sheikah. so the reason the speak to the king so informally is either because they don't remember who he is, or they don't realize that the king is in the boat.
I missed these types of videos! Classic Zelda games just have so much more random, unexplained stuff in them that makes them fun to think about. Great video!
Would've been really cool if you threw out bait then get dragged into the ocean. Getting to explore the ocean floor (sunken Hyrule) would be such a dope idea
Nintendo originally wanted to do a similar concept. I’m not sure if the fishmen were made for that exact purpose and they just chose to keep in the dialogue about fishmen dragging you into the water. Good idea!
Perhaps it's one Kafei/Anju situation. This guy got cursed, being transformed into fish. The way he talks casually with people, and the fact he is famous for knowing about everyone whereabouts, puts him in a very similar position to Kafei. Add up the fact that he is in debt with the King of Red Lions, and you have a typical thief/rogue archetype. To make it all more obvious, the local Inn girl has one secret affair with him. Basically, Anju and Kafei all over again.
That would explain the one fish man that mentions Gillian, but it's implied that the fish men are multiple characters all with the same design, not one character swimming between all the islands (it's been a while since I've played the game, so I'm not certain I recall every piece of dialogue that hints at it exactly, but I believe the first one you meet mentions that he'll tell all his buddies to help Link out in the same way if Link throws bait out for em, and each time ya give bait to a new fish man they'll say "yeah, yeah I've heard. You want information on this island" or something like that, alluding to the first first man you encounter spreading the word about helping Link out).
@jacintacapelety9600 in that case, we must remember that, lore wise, the goddesses of triforce can simply give life to any elemental by sheer will. That is the lore behind the Kokiri/Zora/Goron people, after all . Perhaps the merman are just water elemental people of the new world akin to the old salt water Zora.
@@sansnom5269 Potentially. It's one of those things where there's not enough information so we'll probably never know for certain what exactly their deal is. But it's fun to come up with theories.
There is dialogue that creamia liked kafei as well. Anju's mother brings this up I think after you get to her agree to wait for him. I dont remember the specific events or lack of needed to get this conversation but I do know you need the room upstairs to listen in I believe on the second night
In regards to them suffering from stiff necks, I'm reminded of Ocarina of Time's fishing hole which had the fisherman always reaching to the back of his neck as you spoke to him. One could say that he was likely suffering from neck pain or a "stiff neck" and considering how he's the only "fisherman" from the previous game in the timeline, we can extrapolate that out to all the new "fishermen" or "fishmen" who have appeared after Hyrule was flooded.
I originally thought that the fish-men were actually just the Zoras of Wind Waker's world until I learned about the connection between the Zoras and Rito in WW.
Ruto: "Hey Link, I waited 7 years. It's time to fulfill your wedding vows." And so Link took a long time to complete the Water Temple. Why? Uh, cause it's more difficult! Yeah, no other reason. Centuries later: Fishmen: "We fishmen are worthy to join the Zoras in evolution! Give us our wings!" Zora: "No, you stay here. No one must know about you. People will start asking uncomfortable questions."
It wouldn't explain them as a thing in Wind Waker, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're based on a yokai or something. The dragons in Skyward Sword had those oddly human like heads, something that occasionally comes up in some East Asian stuff in one form or another
It's been a while since I've played the game, so I'm not certain I recall every piece of dialogue that hints at it exactly, but I believe the first one you meet mentions that he'll tell all his buddies to help Link out in the same way if Link throws bait out for em, and each time ya give bait to a new fish man they'll say "yeah, yeah I've heard. You want information on this island" or something like that, alluding to the first first man you encounter spreading the word about helping Link out. So it's easy to miss, but yeah, the implication is that each island has a different fish man.
Did you guys not play the game? The first fishman at Dragon Roost says he’s going to tell all of his friends to look out for you and tell you more gossip. Once you travel to another island and give a fishman bait they talk about how they’ve heard about your deal to trade bait for info from the first fishman.
@@narutosbelievin Yeah, I played it. 6 years ago and aside from not remembering every line of dialogue, I also don’t _read_ every line either when all I want is the fish to jump out of the water and fill in another square on my map. Jk. I actually started replaying the game a month ago and I stopped a little after you meet the first fish and I _still_ don’t remember him saying that… likely because I probably skipped over the dialogue seeing as I’ve played the game before and I just wanna get on over to the Forest Haven.
They being the sheikah could make sense to me if you think about how the zora were maybe forcibly evolved into the rito to get them out of the sea and keep hyrule hidden, the fish men are allowed there because they're in service of the gods or linked to the royal family
I should fill out more of the figurine gallery if I play Wind Waker again. Didn't really occur that there'd be more NPCs than the ones you interact with more regularly like Zunari or Marie. Maybe Gillian's relationship is top secret because the fish men aren't supposed to interact with humans on a more personal level like that.
Well they certainly can't be evolved Zora as that evolution was 100% forced by the Goddess to hide ancient Hyrule under the waters. Hard to keep a secret like that going if there is an entire race that is swimming around to see it.
That, and Wind Waker makes it pretty clear that the Zoras evolved into the Ritos. The Zoras were a fresh water species who couldn’t survive in salt water so they had to evolve.
Great video as usual, man! Also, I have a video request: how about a full story explanation for Wind Waker? I know you love it, so might as well explain the story! I would love to hear it!
Echoes of Wisdom clearly shows River and Sea Zora so maybe this theory could be true. We'll have to wait for Echoes of Wisdom to see the difference between them.
That feels backwards to me, wouldn't the sea zora become more fishlike and less human when there isn't any land but is sea everywhere, and the river zora become less fishlike because there isn't any river left, so somehow bird?
Wind Waker specifically states that the Zora from OoT live in fresh water. The salt water makes it impossible for them to breathe in hence why they’re forced to evolve into Ritos.
I personally like the idea of them being the sheikah tribe, given a new body by the king to continue serving him, and Link. Since the tribe was very good at exactly what the fishmen do, collecting information for the kingdom through a spy network.
I love that this series has so much depth that seemingly insignificant characters like the fishmen can have a whole lore and multiple theories about their origins. Part of what makes Zelda so awesome!
Regarding the Shiekah: I think it is VERY important to point out that Shiekah, VISUALLY, do not look at all much different than Hylians, and that they are, in fact: ninjas. Their whole THING is stealth and infiltration. Most likely there ARE still Shiekah around as of the Great Sea era but for whatever reason they have abandoned the Forsaken Fortress and gone to ground. Possibly because of a wavering of their cause with the kingdom of Hyrule to which their clan is so dedicated gone. They lost purpose and as an organization simply slowly broke up and went their separate ways, dispersing across the Great Sea and abandoning their old ways over the centuries. They likely held a presence at first, and probably had a HUGE hand in setting up the organization of the Great Sea's various people and societies. It is even possible that Outset Island is directly and outright a Shiekah-founded village. Link may have encountered, spoke to, and even GREW UP AMONG, Shiekah all throughout the game.
I think Loot talks about the fish-men trying to drown people because he once saw Gillian disappear underwater with one of them, then confronted her about it and she made up a lie about being dragged under against her will to cover up her fishy affair 🙈
I wonder if the idea behind them takes from the Nordic/Irish/Scottish Selkie myths or the Japanese/Chinese Ningyo myths. Windwaker in particular pulls from a lot of Irish themes and Zelda in general pulls from many Eastern themes. I think work backwards from those could also provide some potential insight. Great work looking up the original Japanese text btw. I think that’s always worth doing when looking into these ideas. 💚👏👏👏
Given the nature of the Fish-Men, maybe they are the freed spirits that once inhabited the Gossip Stones/Sheikah Stones. While the Kingdom of Hyrule was drowning, King Daphnes may have ordered the Sheikah to realease them from their duty. Alll speculation of course, but as to why they "turned into" Fish-Men, they might have possed their body as they once possed the Stones or maybe they reborn as such beings.
I wouldn't mind if Nintendo hired an animation company to do movies of the in-betweens of the games, I'd love to see how we went from Ocarina to Wind Waker and see how many generations passed and the exact reaction of everyone to Ganon's release and his actions that forced Hyrule to be flooded. They have so much content they could cover that way. Showing the rest of OOT Link's life and how he dies, Showing the interloper war in full detail, showing Hyrule becoming established between Skyward and Minish, How Ganon came back in Zelda 1... So many ideas that would make for an amazing set of movies. If only
It’s worth mentioning that, in BOTW, Pikango was a Shiekah painter that would paint locations and provide similar aid/hints to the hero, and that the Fish Men paint your map. Also, the Shiekah Slate/Purah Pad both do the same thing the Fish Men do…provide a topographical map of the area. Perhaps they are indeed Sheikah that were transformed into Fish Men by the will of the Goddesses or some magic…creatures that were meant to look like ordinary fish at a glance so Ganondorf’s minions wouldn’t suspect anything. It wouldn’t be the first time in the Zelda series that people mysteriously turned into animals or creatures. So the Shiekah just become spies of the sea for the king.
A hint as to why both new Zelda games are set in the distant future can also be found in the masks and clothes you come across in both games, especially in Tears of the Kingdom. As far as I remember, many descriptions of these clothes mention ‘ancient times’ or ‘past heroes’.
Nice video as always ! I think your last theory makes a lot of sense (fishmen being sheikahs) as both of them were charged to collect information for the king of Hyrule. Although it is a bit strange that they are not adressing him formaly. Maybe the king only ordered them to obey the Red Lion without revealing them its true identity
I met someone really special who watches your videos ! It was so cool to have watching your content in common with someone else in real life. It's even funnier you made a wind waker video we were talking about wind waker too 😊
Personally, I never knew about the barmaid being the girl the one fish-man was talking about (mainly because I don't remember ever learning the barmaid's name before watching this). So to me, the fish-men's origin is that they're a clan of River Zora that have adapted for oceanic life, much like the real-life salmon they sort of resemble. Although, I wouldn't deny the possibility of them also being reincarnated sailors who had been lost at sea, what remains of the crew of the now haunted/cursed ghost ship that Link can encounter in various places on the Great Sea.
What if the neck pain is from a past hanging and they're executed pirates brought back by the Kings magic to serve him after death. Hence Zelda's willingness to become a pirate.
I think what we missed here, in regards to possible zora evolution is that the rito can absolutely be descended from the friendly river/Lake zora and the fish men from the ocean zora
Personally, I believe the fishmen are Zoras. You said it would devalue the Rito if the Zora had aquatic ancestry, but you can clearly see at 9:03 that the Rito's ancestors are sea zoras. But what about the River Zoras? What happened to them? The fresh water zoras. They were helped by the king to be able to survive the rising tides of the salt water.
The ZD staff had a debate last month whether it’s a single fish-man, or a group of fish-men. I like to think this video confirms it’s fish-men 👍 Thanks bud
I like the idea that they were Hylians before the flood that King Daphnes saved by pulling them from the water and tossing them aboard himself as he transformed into a boat, and then begged the gods to save them, so they turned them into the fish men. When they awoke, they saw the King of Red Lions and their memory from before had begun to fade, since they now had a fish-sized brain, so they recognized that the King of Red Lions had saved them but not who he was or what he saved them from.
I think they could definitely be another evolution of the Zora. It's implied in certain spots that the Zora are still around in some capacity, such as there being a menu item named after the Zora in the cafe on Windfall, or the unused "Zora Sail" that was in the game's data. Also the fact we never got to see Greatfish Isle before it was destroyed and the fact that's where Jabun lived, a descendant of Jabu Jabu.
I'd think if the Fishmen knew the identity of Links ship they'd keep it secret unless they knew Link knew. Since Ganondorf came back wouldn't want him to know the King of Hyrule is around. There also were different Zora's.
If i remember correctly, its said that the ocean became a place where you couldnt fish because nothing was able to live in these waters. But there are still monsters and other oddities that live there. I think the fishmen are people who became corrupted by consuming the monsters that resided in the water. They would have died if the king didnt use his power to find a way to keep them alive.
The Zora and Sheikah lines of theory are interesting and might be very well right. But I would like to point out one missing race from the time OoT that wasn't mentioned. The Gerudo. While these fish are called Fishmen, the men part of their name could be used in the same way as when humanity is referred to as mankind, the race of man, etc. The Fishmen have lots of what looks like tribal paint on them and their artistic ability reminds me of the Gerudo we see later in BOTW/TOTK. The forgotten debt could be from the Gerudo being saved by the King for two reasons. One, since they likely didn't have any areas near them that could be called mountains and secondly, also among the races, they would need the most saving because of their ties to Ganondorf.
One theory that came right into my mind while watching this video, is that they were sailors who were at mercy of sea and were rescued by King of Red Lions, but as he likely can't save everyone without taking too large step on how dead can affect world of living, he instead gives them choice: Leave them be, with almost certain death by drowning or be turned into Fishman and work as spy for him. Turning them into Fishmen removes them from world of Hylians and thus can act if they did die, while also giving spooky stories. This explains Gillian and her boyfriend situation more, they fell love, boyfriend almost drowned but was rescued by King of Red Lions and have only few times visited Gillian as they really can't be together anymore but he wants to make sure she is alright and let her know he is alive. It could also explain Loot the Sailors situation, a Fishman that was pushed overboard in previous life, later Fishman came and pulled person responsible into depths in front of Loot. While this was payback or revenge, Loot did not know this and assumes Fishmen do this to everyone.
I think Gillian was legit in love with a Fishmen, and Lute was trying to turn public opinion against them in hopes that Gillian would love him instead. As for what they are... probably Hylians/Zora cursed into their new forms. It might be why swimming is considered so dangerous in Wind Waker.
Okay okay wait - I was literally just working on my own theory about the fishmen being specifically related to the river zora. I thought this was a video that dropped years ago when I clicked on it; not an hour ago.
My headcanon was that they were all from old Hyrule and were given immortality and fishman status in exchange for service when the time came. Really interesting to hear multiple theories.
on the Zora, i think it’s totally possible the Salt Water Zora evolved into the Fishmen, whereas the Freshwater Zora, who couldn’t live in the sea, evolved into the Rito
We dont know for how many years the king of red lions was roaming the sea before link came into the picture, he might have been roaming around gathering information and helping the Fishmen in someway long after they became Fishmen too, which could relate to the debt part but not explain their origin in any way
I buy into the idea that this is a form of the afterlife. The King can pass his spirt into an inanimate object so I think he was able to pass their spirits into the fish to extend their lives that were perhaps cut short. I could see this having happened in the last 10 or 20 years or even more recently. Maybe Gillian and her boyfriend were just kids or young adults when they were in a relationship and he died.
Of course they know more than they let on. The King of Red Lion is like old man zangetsu in bleach abridged. "Okay, and when i eventually come around with a hro dude, dont just tell him everything out right. Be vauge, misleading almost. Make him work for it"
the fishmen seem to all be fishMEN which I think implies that rather than being a reproducing species there's only a certain number of them so if they were the Sheikah they'd probably remember who the King of Red Lions was
I always assumed that they were related to the River Zora, who are more fishlike, though looking at them now their noses and especially their ears are distinctly Hylian, so I think the idea that they were Hylians transformed through magical means makes more sense.
I always figured they were sailors that were drowning, and about to die. Then Nayru appeared and offered them a chance to live on and serve her in distributing wisdom across the sea
Maybe back in the day the King used the triforce to wish that any of those unfortunate enough to escape the flooding of Hyrule would turn into fish. Maybe that's why they're not so formal or happy about it. "Thanks, but now I'm a fish."
The idea of them being the spirits of the sheikah transformed is interesting and it would explain their debt to the King neatly, but I feel like them being the spirits of drowned sailors would make more sense for their personalities.
King of Red Lions' relationship to the Fishmen reminds me of Gandalf's relationship to the Eagles in Lord of the Rings. The Eagles knew Gandalf from before the events of the Hobbit and they owed him a favor (Gandalf saved the King of Eagles from poison, IIRC). The Eagles aid Thorin's Company twice and they aid the Fellowship three times. Tolkien's Eagles represent the divine, and Wind Waker's Fishmen are based on the Japanese legend of Ningyo, which are revered in Shinto.
I like the idea that they were transformed Hylians, it reminds me of a detail I think you pointed out in a previous video regarding the dog forms royal symbols of darknuts in this game as well.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
4:09 "He finds his boat mid-conversation with one of them."
If I told this line to someone who doesn't play Zelda, they'd probably call me crazy.
Too funny 😂
Link: are you cheating on me with a fish?
"He finds his boat in the middle of conversing with a fish" Is such an odd line lol (I think we need to add 'fish' instead of 'them')
I mean... Its a nintendo game.. Hell, wait until you find out about Banjo Kazooie.
This reminds me of a Wind Waker meme, where Link is looking... let's say half-asleep, and he says, "There's like this castle in a magic bubble on the ocean floor. I went there in my talking dragon boat."
My contribution: "I swear! I saw my boat talking to a fishman right after I left the temple where I mind-controlled a flying tree-person. How? With a magic conductor's baton, of course."
The fishmen are clearly the reincarnated spirits of Tingle's victims, and the service that the King of Red Lions provided to them was getting Tingle arrested in the first place.
The death of the King of Hyrule in the Wind Waker, to me, is one of the most saddening moments in Zelda, and one of the few moments a video game made me cry while playing it. His recognition that he is ultimately a product of the old Hyrule and its fatal mistakes, Link reaching out to him and the King briefly reaching out his own arm, clearly wanting to go with Link, but ultimately drowning with Hyrule, content that he, "scattered the seeds of the future", and then seeing the lifeless King of Red Lions at the end; it was all very moving.
I started playing the game when I was 7 so I didn’t truly understand what happened until I was older. Zelda endings are known to be sad but this one takes the cake for me.
Spoiler 😢😢😮😮
@@JordanS-ww4eu It's mentioned in the video; it's not a spoiler.
@@narutosbelievinZelda ending used to be great but BotW and TotK really dropped the ball for me.
He doesn't die, He's already a ghost - he just disappears like Rhoam in BoTW
I like this theory! But think it's easier to believe that Fish-Men are Hylian sailors who drowned at sea, and are cursed to become fish. That explains why the barmaid had a relation with a fish. It was her past lover who died at sea and came back as a fish. 🐟
thats exactly what i was thinking, plus it defends Gillian much more compared to falling in love with... a fish-human monster
@@sorryiateyourgoldfish The Shape of Water says hello
@@sorryiateyourgoldfish Well said Tasty! It explains Gillian's relationship much better.
IIRC, doesn't the game state that the waters are cursed to turn things into monsters like the Lost Woods in OOT? Hence why most of the Zora moved away during the flood, but if not all moved then they might have devolved back into more monster like forms closer to the river Zora. If the king saw this and hired them to help the royal family as informants rather than treating them like monsters and killing them that could explain the debt. It's doesn't explain Gillian's fishy taste in boyfriends, but there are weider characters out there
@@spadeofalltrades1321 well that would explain gillian's boyfriend, wouldnt it? that fish was a hylian before, but got cursed and is now a fish
my theory is they're funny little guys, and my evidence is take a gander at them
By George, you have a point!
Liked and subscribed
Are you British?
@@takendruid are you English?
I hear the picture of the fish man. “QUUUEEE?”
I always loved the sounds they made when you shot them with arrows!
And them calling link 'Fry.'
It’s dangerous to go alone take this
For a moment there i thought there was this weird meme version of Drake's mom (from Drake & Josh) where she goes "WHAAT?" because QUE means literally WHAT in spanish and its a meme over here in LATAM
One thing I speculated: that Jabun was the guardian deity of the Fishmen in the same manner that Valoo is to the Rito or the Great Deku Tree to the Koroks.
Hmm 🤔 could be! I still believe that the fishman evolved after the flood. Question is from what race?
I was thinking the same thing. And that if Jabun's dungeon wasn't cut out, then the Fishmen would've been fleshed out as a race of their own.
@@narutosbelievin Maybe just from ordinary fish.
I could see that being the case. I thought at one point that maybe Jabun would turn drowned sailors into the Fishmen.
A village’s worth of Hylians either died or were displaced thanks to Ganondorf’s attack on Greatfish Isle, prior to the events of the story. Perhaps it is they who are the Fishmen. They were resurrected into their new forms by Jabun, at the behest of the King of Red Lions
So happy to see a good ol' zelda theory video about an older game again! I feel like with all the excitement lately with Tears, Botw, Echoes, the book, the lego deku tree... these have fallen by the wayside lately. But they always bring me so much joy!
Agreed! I’ve gotten so sick of those! Give me info on the old games! Especially Wind Waker!
I always liked to think they were guards or soldiers of Hyrule during the reign of Daphnes. When the flood hit, King Daphnes ordered them to the highest peaks and they went to the islands and lived normal lives until he summoned them. When Ganondorf returned, he knew the hero would eventually show up, so he dispatched his soldiers to each of the islands under the guise of fish so that Ganondorf wouldn't discover them. The neck pain is because they're still not used to their transformed bodies.
That’s a great idea!
Very cool idea!
Considering Maggie wants to marry a Moblin, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume Gillian is into fishmen. I mean, that's why it's "TOP SECRET", after all.
Never made the connection between the fish men and the gossip stones before, very cool! Makes you think they may be related to the Sheikah after all
5:14 did you see the swirls on the desk 👀
@@Cwahsawntwhat about em👀
@@SwankyyTVIt's a joke about BotW Zonai theories.
Somehow I never realized that there was actually a "dear Gillian" on the island! In my head it was pronounced with a hard G (I have a cousin with the same name and that's how she pronounces it) and was just a fish-related pun. Y'know....GILL-ian....
XD
That's an awesome interpretation.
🎏 Pun welcomed 🙌🏻
Could it be a double pun, as in GilliGan? It is one letter off.
That’s what I thought too!
I thought so too! Id like to know the japanese name to verify its the same Gillian they talk about
know what, the Fishmen are very similar tot he japanese myth of the Ningyo, who were fish with human faces
and the possible ancient life spans could be a reference to how eating a Ningyo would make you immortal
The guy mentioning a cruise makes me wish for the DLC where Link takes a vacation with his family on a sea vacation.
we can call it "The Legend of Zelda: Sunshine"
@@djinnspalace2119 ngl that’s not a bad idea
I’d do anything for Wind Waker dlc
@@narutosbelievin I'd rather have another game in the windwaker style in general!
@paulsnow2044 the Minish Cap is a game that is a blend between wind waker and link to the past graphics in a way.
Anyone else mentally auto-fill "Listen" after Zeltik said "Hey" at the start?
Very much so 😅😂
I’m glad the well has not quite yet run dry on my favorite Zelda game!
This is way more poetic to me than it maybe should be 😅 have a like 👍🏻
It never will as long as I’m alive
The forsaken fortress was said to once belong to a band of thieves. What if Gannondorf cursed the original occupants turning them into fish men and the king of red lions helped them escape and get them settled into their new existence.
Edit: I would also like to point out that many enemies in the game have a similar if not same yellow and red eye pattern. This may suggest some prior involvement with Gannondorf who himself has yellow eyes with red pupils. Perhaps they were monsters created by Gannondorf who were liberated by the king.
I really like this theory actually! Would also explain why Gillian's former boyfriend is such a secret. Not only did she date a man turned fish, but a THIEF turned fish!
I like this perspective a lot. Ganondorf's powers are shown to be pretty intense, but we never see much of a display of King Daphnes' power beyond possessing a specific boat, so the problem I had with the theories Zeltik outlines is: how would the King have had the ability to turn anyone into fish? Meanwhile Ganondorf is shown to have conjuration, cursing, and corruption abilities in Windwaker, so it would not be a stretch to think Ganondorf would be capable of turning these people into Fishmen, and the King's favor having something more to do with improving their lives after that one way or another.
i stand by the belief that they were once Sheikah. it makes the most sense and would explain why they know so much.
Given the Sheikah's history of serving the Hyrule royal family, I don't think it would make sense for a transformed Sheikah to speak to the King so informally. Another question is why would the Sheikah owe him a debt and then peace out when they fulfill it? I can't think of anything that would connect the Sheikah to fish or anything else in this game, aside from a few small symbols somewhere.
Do we know Link's Grandma's name? What if she was Impa or a descendant? I dunno, that's all I got
@@fuzzydude64we don’t know her name no
@@fuzzydude64 it would make sense because the kingdom of Hyrule is no more and it's been so long that maybe the fish themselves don't remember their lives as the Sheikah. so the reason the speak to the king so informally is either because they don't remember who he is, or they don't realize that the king is in the boat.
@@breckingames5107I somehow doubt a race of clairvoyants would suffer from poor memory.
@@homebreaux if their bodies have changed, who's to say their minds haven't as well?
I missed these types of videos! Classic Zelda games just have so much more random, unexplained stuff in them that makes them fun to think about. Great video!
I miss that stuff, a lot of that charm and oddness is missing from the newer games.
Would've been really cool if you threw out bait then get dragged into the ocean. Getting to explore the ocean floor (sunken Hyrule) would be such a dope idea
Nintendo originally wanted to do a similar concept. I’m not sure if the fishmen were made for that exact purpose and they just chose to keep in the dialogue about fishmen dragging you into the water. Good idea!
I could see the secret fishman boyfriend being that Gillian never knew he was a FIshman and they were penpals, or talked without her seeing him.
The main issue with this theory is that the Fishman says he used to gaze at the lighthouse with Gillian.
Sea-rano De Bergerac
Perhaps it's one Kafei/Anju situation. This guy got cursed, being transformed into fish. The way he talks casually with people, and the fact he is famous for knowing about everyone whereabouts, puts him in a very similar position to Kafei. Add up the fact that he is in debt with the King of Red Lions, and you have a typical thief/rogue archetype. To make it all more obvious, the local Inn girl has one secret affair with him. Basically, Anju and Kafei all over again.
That would explain the one fish man that mentions Gillian, but it's implied that the fish men are multiple characters all with the same design, not one character swimming between all the islands (it's been a while since I've played the game, so I'm not certain I recall every piece of dialogue that hints at it exactly, but I believe the first one you meet mentions that he'll tell all his buddies to help Link out in the same way if Link throws bait out for em, and each time ya give bait to a new fish man they'll say "yeah, yeah I've heard. You want information on this island" or something like that, alluding to the first first man you encounter spreading the word about helping Link out).
@jacintacapelety9600 in that case, we must remember that, lore wise, the goddesses of triforce can simply give life to any elemental by sheer will. That is the lore behind the Kokiri/Zora/Goron people, after all . Perhaps the merman are just water elemental people of the new world akin to the old salt water Zora.
@@sansnom5269 Potentially. It's one of those things where there's not enough information so we'll probably never know for certain what exactly their deal is. But it's fun to come up with theories.
There is dialogue that creamia liked kafei as well. Anju's mother brings this up I think after you get to her agree to wait for him. I dont remember the specific events or lack of needed to get this conversation but I do know you need the room upstairs to listen in I believe on the second night
@@sansnom5269If that were the case it wouldn’t be so strange about their past making them seem like they evolved after the flooding too
In regards to them suffering from stiff necks, I'm reminded of Ocarina of Time's fishing hole which had the fisherman always reaching to the back of his neck as you spoke to him. One could say that he was likely suffering from neck pain or a "stiff neck" and considering how he's the only "fisherman" from the previous game in the timeline, we can extrapolate that out to all the new "fishermen" or "fishmen" who have appeared after Hyrule was flooded.
I originally thought that the fish-men were actually just the Zoras of Wind Waker's world until I learned about the connection between the Zoras and Rito in WW.
Ruto: "Hey Link, I waited 7 years. It's time to fulfill your wedding vows."
And so Link took a long time to complete the Water Temple. Why? Uh, cause it's more difficult! Yeah, no other reason.
Centuries later:
Fishmen: "We fishmen are worthy to join the Zoras in evolution! Give us our wings!"
Zora: "No, you stay here. No one must know about you. People will start asking uncomfortable questions."
The Legend Of Salmon
The Legend of Salmon: Sashimi Maker
@@Your-Least-Favorite-Strangerlmao
Or in this case, Salman
It wouldn't explain them as a thing in Wind Waker, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're based on a yokai or something. The dragons in Skyward Sword had those oddly human like heads, something that occasionally comes up in some East Asian stuff in one form or another
Those are simply Chinese dragons known as lóngguī. A specific example of a human-faced Chinese noodle dragon is Zhulong.
So the fishman isn’t the same fish every time? It’s a different fish every island?
That's the bigger reveal for me.
I prefer to think he just gets around.
It's been a while since I've played the game, so I'm not certain I recall every piece of dialogue that hints at it exactly, but I believe the first one you meet mentions that he'll tell all his buddies to help Link out in the same way if Link throws bait out for em, and each time ya give bait to a new fish man they'll say "yeah, yeah I've heard. You want information on this island" or something like that, alluding to the first first man you encounter spreading the word about helping Link out. So it's easy to miss, but yeah, the implication is that each island has a different fish man.
Did you guys not play the game? The first fishman at Dragon Roost says he’s going to tell all of his friends to look out for you and tell you more gossip. Once you travel to another island and give a fishman bait they talk about how they’ve heard about your deal to trade bait for info from the first fishman.
@@narutosbelievin Yeah, I played it. 6 years ago and aside from not remembering every line of dialogue, I also don’t _read_ every line either when all I want is the fish to jump out of the water and fill in another square on my map.
Jk. I actually started replaying the game a month ago and I stopped a little after you meet the first fish and I _still_ don’t remember him saying that… likely because I probably skipped over the dialogue seeing as I’ve played the game before and I just wanna get on over to the Forest Haven.
Literally listening to the Wind Waker soundtrack as this was uploaded
That’s pretty sad man
?
i was having fun, but if you say so dudebro
Great video. You will always be the GOAT of Zelda-tubers to me Zeltik, sending love!
They being the sheikah could make sense to me if you think about how the zora were maybe forcibly evolved into the rito to get them out of the sea and keep hyrule hidden, the fish men are allowed there because they're in service of the gods or linked to the royal family
I should fill out more of the figurine gallery if I play Wind Waker again. Didn't really occur that there'd be more NPCs than the ones you interact with more regularly like Zunari or Marie. Maybe Gillian's relationship is top secret because the fish men aren't supposed to interact with humans on a more personal level like that.
Its always so soothing to listen to Zeltik, talk about myths and mysteries.
god i love the wind waker and i'm so glad to see theories about it still
Well they certainly can't be evolved Zora as that evolution was 100% forced by the Goddess to hide ancient Hyrule under the waters. Hard to keep a secret like that going if there is an entire race that is swimming around to see it.
I thought something similar with the whole “keep old Hyrule secret”
That, and Wind Waker makes it pretty clear that the Zoras evolved into the Ritos. The Zoras were a fresh water species who couldn’t survive in salt water so they had to evolve.
Great video as usual, man! Also, I have a video request: how about a full story explanation for Wind Waker? I know you love it, so might as well explain the story! I would love to hear it!
The fish could be River Zora where The Sea Zora became The Reto or something else
That may be, there *are* enemy River Zora knights in Phantom Hourglass. Maybe more than a few of them were *prevented* from becoming River Zoras.
@@Link_1129 I like this theory, but those guys are called Geozards both in Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks.
Echoes of Wisdom clearly shows River and Sea Zora so maybe this theory could be true. We'll have to wait for Echoes of Wisdom to see the difference between them.
That feels backwards to me, wouldn't the sea zora become more fishlike and less human when there isn't any land but is sea everywhere, and the river zora become less fishlike because there isn't any river left, so somehow bird?
Wind Waker specifically states that the Zora from OoT live in fresh water. The salt water makes it impossible for them to breathe in hence why they’re forced to evolve into Ritos.
I personally like the idea of them being the sheikah tribe, given a new body by the king to continue serving him, and Link.
Since the tribe was very good at exactly what the fishmen do, collecting information for the kingdom through a spy network.
I love that this series has so much depth that seemingly insignificant characters like the fishmen can have a whole lore and multiple theories about their origins. Part of what makes Zelda so awesome!
Regarding the Shiekah: I think it is VERY important to point out that Shiekah, VISUALLY, do not look at all much different than Hylians, and that they are, in fact: ninjas. Their whole THING is stealth and infiltration.
Most likely there ARE still Shiekah around as of the Great Sea era but for whatever reason they have abandoned the Forsaken Fortress and gone to ground. Possibly because of a wavering of their cause with the kingdom of Hyrule to which their clan is so dedicated gone. They lost purpose and as an organization simply slowly broke up and went their separate ways, dispersing across the Great Sea and abandoning their old ways over the centuries.
They likely held a presence at first, and probably had a HUGE hand in setting up the organization of the Great Sea's various people and societies. It is even possible that Outset Island is directly and outright a Shiekah-founded village.
Link may have encountered, spoke to, and even GREW UP AMONG, Shiekah all throughout the game.
I think Loot talks about the fish-men trying to drown people because he once saw Gillian disappear underwater with one of them, then confronted her about it and she made up a lie about being dragged under against her will to cover up her fishy affair 🙈
You know it’s a zeltick vid when he finds a connection between fish and the Shekiah
Man it’s such a shame TOTK did nothing with the lore.
So much better, more connected lore in past games it’s crazy.
a Zeltik upload day is a good day
This is a good theory! I love Wind Waker.
I wonder if the idea behind them takes from the Nordic/Irish/Scottish Selkie myths or the Japanese/Chinese Ningyo myths.
Windwaker in particular pulls from a lot of Irish themes and Zelda in general pulls from many Eastern themes. I think work backwards from those could also provide some potential insight.
Great work looking up the original Japanese text btw. I think that’s always worth doing when looking into these ideas. 💚👏👏👏
The choice of music and pacing of the video was great, it kept me hooked the whole time
I like how you went for the spooky vibe 👍
These obscure videos are the reason I love this channel!
Given the nature of the Fish-Men, maybe they are the freed spirits that once inhabited the Gossip Stones/Sheikah Stones. While the Kingdom of Hyrule was drowning, King Daphnes may have ordered the Sheikah to realease them from their duty. Alll speculation of course, but as to why they "turned into" Fish-Men, they might have possed their body as they once possed the Stones or maybe they reborn as such beings.
Zeltik killing it with the atmosphere in this video. Great job man!
I love the atmosphere in that bar.
I wouldn't mind if Nintendo hired an animation company to do movies of the in-betweens of the games, I'd love to see how we went from Ocarina to Wind Waker and see how many generations passed and the exact reaction of everyone to Ganon's release and his actions that forced Hyrule to be flooded. They have so much content they could cover that way. Showing the rest of OOT Link's life and how he dies, Showing the interloper war in full detail, showing Hyrule becoming established between Skyward and Minish, How Ganon came back in Zelda 1... So many ideas that would make for an amazing set of movies. If only
It’s worth mentioning that, in BOTW, Pikango was a Shiekah painter that would paint locations and provide similar aid/hints to the hero, and that the Fish Men paint your map. Also, the Shiekah Slate/Purah Pad both do the same thing the Fish Men do…provide a topographical map of the area. Perhaps they are indeed Sheikah that were transformed into Fish Men by the will of the Goddesses or some magic…creatures that were meant to look like ordinary fish at a glance so Ganondorf’s minions wouldn’t suspect anything. It wouldn’t be the first time in the Zelda series that people mysteriously turned into animals or creatures. So the Shiekah just become spies of the sea for the king.
A hint as to why both new Zelda games are set in the distant future can also be found in the masks and clothes you come across in both games, especially in Tears of the Kingdom. As far as I remember, many descriptions of these clothes mention ‘ancient times’ or ‘past heroes’.
Not gonna lie, the Eagles Tower track mixed with the creepy mystery of the fish men was a little creepy haha
Nice video as always ! I think your last theory makes a lot of sense (fishmen being sheikahs) as both of them were charged to collect information for the king of Hyrule. Although it is a bit strange that they are not adressing him formaly. Maybe the king only ordered them to obey the Red Lion without revealing them its true identity
I met someone really special who watches your videos ! It was so cool to have watching your content in common with someone else in real life. It's even funnier you made a wind waker video we were talking about wind waker too 😊
I had never once really thought these fish guys through, another changed perspective on a good game
Personally, I never knew about the barmaid being the girl the one fish-man was talking about (mainly because I don't remember ever learning the barmaid's name before watching this). So to me, the fish-men's origin is that they're a clan of River Zora that have adapted for oceanic life, much like the real-life salmon they sort of resemble. Although, I wouldn't deny the possibility of them also being reincarnated sailors who had been lost at sea, what remains of the crew of the now haunted/cursed ghost ship that Link can encounter in various places on the Great Sea.
That Ghost Ship theory is interesting
More theory videos for older Zelda games! I love this stuff, great video.
Theories on the older games are still the best. Getting to uncover mysteries from childhood makes me feel like a kid playing these games again ❤
What if the neck pain is from a past hanging and they're executed pirates brought back by the Kings magic to serve him after death. Hence Zelda's willingness to become a pirate.
I like that lost souls idea, almost like the Stalfos. You get lost at sea, you stay at sea.
I think what we missed here, in regards to possible zora evolution is that the rito can absolutely be descended from the friendly river/Lake zora and the fish men from the ocean zora
Personally, I believe the fishmen are Zoras. You said it would devalue the Rito if the Zora had aquatic ancestry, but you can clearly see at 9:03 that the Rito's ancestors are sea zoras. But what about the River Zoras? What happened to them? The fresh water zoras. They were helped by the king to be able to survive the rising tides of the salt water.
The ZD staff had a debate last month whether it’s a single fish-man, or a group of fish-men. I like to think this video confirms it’s fish-men 👍 Thanks bud
That’s sad y’all had to have a debate…It clearly states in game that it’s several fish.
I like the idea that they were Hylians before the flood that King Daphnes saved by pulling them from the water and tossing them aboard himself as he transformed into a boat, and then begged the gods to save them, so they turned them into the fish men. When they awoke, they saw the King of Red Lions and their memory from before had begun to fade, since they now had a fish-sized brain, so they recognized that the King of Red Lions had saved them but not who he was or what he saved them from.
I think they could definitely be another evolution of the Zora. It's implied in certain spots that the Zora are still around in some capacity, such as there being a menu item named after the Zora in the cafe on Windfall, or the unused "Zora Sail" that was in the game's data. Also the fact we never got to see Greatfish Isle before it was destroyed and the fact that's where Jabun lived, a descendant of Jabu Jabu.
I'd think if the Fishmen knew the identity of Links ship they'd keep it secret unless they knew Link knew. Since Ganondorf came back wouldn't want him to know the King of Hyrule is around. There also were different Zora's.
If i remember correctly, its said that the ocean became a place where you couldnt fish because nothing was able to live in these waters. But there are still monsters and other oddities that live there. I think the fishmen are people who became corrupted by consuming the monsters that resided in the water. They would have died if the king didnt use his power to find a way to keep them alive.
Isn't there a theory that the school teacher on Windfall Island is a Sheikah?
The Zora and Sheikah lines of theory are interesting and might be very well right. But I would like to point out one missing race from the time OoT that wasn't mentioned. The Gerudo. While these fish are called Fishmen, the men part of their name could be used in the same way as when humanity is referred to as mankind, the race of man, etc. The Fishmen have lots of what looks like tribal paint on them and their artistic ability reminds me of the Gerudo we see later in BOTW/TOTK. The forgotten debt could be from the Gerudo being saved by the King for two reasons. One, since they likely didn't have any areas near them that could be called mountains and secondly, also among the races, they would need the most saving because of their ties to Ganondorf.
Amazing, a new theory. Its been years. Thank you
One theory that came right into my mind while watching this video, is that they were sailors who were at mercy of sea and were rescued by King of Red Lions, but as he likely can't save everyone without taking too large step on how dead can affect world of living, he instead gives them choice: Leave them be, with almost certain death by drowning or be turned into Fishman and work as spy for him. Turning them into Fishmen removes them from world of Hylians and thus can act if they did die, while also giving spooky stories.
This explains Gillian and her boyfriend situation more, they fell love, boyfriend almost drowned but was rescued by King of Red Lions and have only few times visited Gillian as they really can't be together anymore but he wants to make sure she is alright and let her know he is alive.
It could also explain Loot the Sailors situation, a Fishman that was pushed overboard in previous life, later Fishman came and pulled person responsible into depths in front of Loot. While this was payback or revenge, Loot did not know this and assumes Fishmen do this to everyone.
I think Gillian was legit in love with a Fishmen, and Lute was trying to turn public opinion against them in hopes that Gillian would love him instead. As for what they are... probably Hylians/Zora cursed into their new forms. It might be why swimming is considered so dangerous in Wind Waker.
Okay okay wait - I was literally just working on my own theory about the fishmen being specifically related to the river zora. I thought this was a video that dropped years ago when I clicked on it; not an hour ago.
Wow, trippy indeed 👀
My headcanon was that they were all from old Hyrule and were given immortality and fishman status in exchange for service when the time came. Really interesting to hear multiple theories.
The Zora turning into Rito to support inhabiting a flooded world will never not be stupid lmao. They’re literally fish people.
TOTK Easter egg : if you feed a horse carrots, you receive temporary more speed boosts with a similar symbol of OOT equal to number of carrots
on the Zora, i think it’s totally possible the Salt Water Zora evolved into the Fishmen, whereas the Freshwater Zora, who couldn’t live in the sea, evolved into the Rito
Never really thought about it, but now that you mention it, the whole thing does have a certain 'Incredible Mr. Limpet' vibe.
We dont know for how many years the king of red lions was roaming the sea before link came into the picture, he might have been roaming around gathering information and helping the Fishmen in someway long after they became Fishmen too, which could relate to the debt part but not explain their origin in any way
I buy into the idea that this is a form of the afterlife. The King can pass his spirt into an inanimate object so I think he was able to pass their spirits into the fish to extend their lives that were perhaps cut short.
I could see this having happened in the last 10 or 20 years or even more recently. Maybe Gillian and her boyfriend were just kids or young adults when they were in a relationship and he died.
Of course they know more than they let on. The King of Red Lion is like old man zangetsu in bleach abridged. "Okay, and when i eventually come around with a hro dude, dont just tell him everything out right. Be vauge, misleading almost. Make him work for it"
OMG, I loved the fish-men in Wind Waker.
the fishmen seem to all be fishMEN which I think implies that rather than being a reproducing species there's only a certain number of them so if they were the Sheikah they'd probably remember who the King of Red Lions was
Unless they don’t know that he’s the King in disguise?
@@narutosbelievin the idea that they were the Sheikah hinges on the idea that the Sheikah are loyal to the king
This is so awesome! Please do more Wind Waker videos like this 🎉
There _could_ be a connection with the Zora. What if the Fishmen are what became of the River-Zora?
I first thought they were the descendants of the Zora...
Imagine my shock and incredulity when the Zora to Rito connection was made later in the game.
I always assumed that they were related to the River Zora, who are more fishlike, though looking at them now their noses and especially their ears are distinctly Hylian, so I think the idea that they were Hylians transformed through magical means makes more sense.
The fishmen being zora descendants could explain how the zora and rito exist alongside each other in botw and totk
I appreciated the end of leaving the fish jumping out the water. Cute.
I always figured they were sailors that were drowning, and about to die. Then Nayru appeared and offered them a chance to live on and serve her in distributing wisdom across the sea
I always assumed the Fish Men was just one really lonely fish following you around and pretending to be a new one every time there was a new one
Maybe back in the day the King used the triforce to wish that any of those unfortunate enough to escape the flooding of Hyrule would turn into fish. Maybe that's why they're not so formal or happy about it. "Thanks, but now I'm a fish."
To not escape*
The idea of them being the spirits of the sheikah transformed is interesting and it would explain their debt to the King neatly, but I feel like them being the spirits of drowned sailors would make more sense for their personalities.
King of Red Lions' relationship to the Fishmen reminds me of Gandalf's relationship to the Eagles in Lord of the Rings.
The Eagles knew Gandalf from before the events of the Hobbit and they owed him a favor (Gandalf saved the King of Eagles from poison, IIRC). The Eagles aid Thorin's Company twice and they aid the Fellowship three times.
Tolkien's Eagles represent the divine, and Wind Waker's Fishmen are based on the Japanese legend of Ningyo, which are revered in Shinto.
I like the idea that they were transformed Hylians, it reminds me of a detail I think you pointed out in a previous video regarding the dog forms royal symbols of darknuts in this game as well.
This is the type of content I subscribed for!