I mean, Guilliman was able to convince Lion "I'm gonna cut your head off if I deem you a traitor" El Johnson that his reasoning was sound. I don't think he should feel guilt.
I do find it interesting how Lion, who is infallible according to the Emperor himself, who would always be a loyalist, asked his own son if he was loyal to the Emperor, or loyal to Lion, especially because they should be one in the same. I believe it's because even though they share the same goal, Lion is effectively given a "pass" on methods that would be deemed not acceptable by the Lords of Terra, which would make his return in 40k so spicy.
I feel that all of Guilliman's actions are justified. Guilliman getting people to Ultramar was smart, he was trying to get as many forces to him as possible to hold back and maybe even defeat Horus. Him making Imperium secondus was also the right thing to do it would also bring lost forces to him and show the Imperium was still around. Guilliman holding men back was the right choice as even though these men could have been used on Terra, Guilliman was unsure of Terras fate so holding men back would lead to a better chance against Horus and reduce life loss at this moment if it turned out that Terra had fell
Look at what happened to (not just a few but probably like 60% mortality rate) those who tore out for Terra. Chaos had the warp in such turmoil on purpose for the very important reason of STOPPING everyone from reaching Terra. There are countless tales of 10s of 1000s of Marines lost in warp transit on their way to Terra. Anyway, Guilliman (being a primarch with a high IQ for a primarch LOL) would probably be WELL AWARE of this and be horrified of the idea of losing large chunks of those most valuable assets just to rush to the emperor's aid on Terra blindly.
Guilliman really had no way of knowing that Horus was winning or losing the war, but his decision of creating the Imperium Secondus was tactically sound by him. Several thousands of enemies space marines from the Word Bearers and World Eaters and their Primarchs were running amok against the Realm of Ultramar, and while Guilliman perhaps could have rushed to Terra, but it was the mere fact that it was Ultramar allowed the Imperium to pushed the Traitors to the Eye of Terror. Perhaps the modern day Imperium couldn’t comprehend that Guilliman did the most tactical and sound decision that even the Emperor would have praised, but that decision allowed the Loyalists destroy the Traitors worlds, resources, and even their logistical support that was torn to shreds by the Lion.
It’s interesting when looking at The G Man. From my lore knowledge he is the only primarch to have both a father in Konor and a mother in Tarasha Euten.
We're forgetting the fact that Guilliman was not wrong in saying there was no route to Terra. It took an enormous effort of 3 legions to get the Blood Angels past the Ruinstorm later on. If Guilliman had rushed to Terra alone, he almost certainly would not have made it.
I'd say he didn't refuse to hope. He truly believe Terra destroyed and the Emperor dead. He had to establish something to keep people fighting for the empire against Horus or they would have just folded to him. This was vital. He never gave up hope of the Imperium or of his father's dream. He was completely right to do what he did considering the information he believed to be true. A better question is, if he believed the Emperor dead and Terra destroyed, what else would people expect the most pragmatic primarch to have done except re-establish an Imperium to fight for?
I think too much is made of Secundus. To my mind, the Emperor knows of it already. I don't see a problem with Secundus. It was a sound decision at the time based on info in hand. Not a big deal.
The big deal is the "if" of people finding out about it in 40k, those skeptical of guilliman will paint his decision in the wost light possible in an attempt to undermine him
@@Licmebro that didn't stop the high lords, and it won't stop any would be upstarts, and the more guilliman puts down, the more doubt it places in people's minds of his legitimacy,
@@Licmebro the high Lords were just a taste of opposition compared to what would happen if full weight of the ecclesiarchy, inquisition, and even some custodes (looking at you colquan) decide Guilliman was guilty of treason
@@Licmebro Actually no If the masses go against guilliman it'll be bad , to their minds it will be that guilliman instead of aiding the loyalists he instead seized the opportunity to create his own imperium whilst waiting for his father's to die , it is a smear campaign by Rottigus and nurgle to have people loose faith or even attempt to remove guilliman from power , this event has the ability to escalate badly . It may cause a civil war between some loyalist astartes vs ultramarines.
Imperium Secundus. Was a contingency because the Ruinstorm cut off Terra from Ultramar. They didn't know if The Emperor was alive or dead. Gulliman is no Traitor. He was shoring up Humanity.
What would have happened if he had ordered the beacon to be pointed at Terra? It has been sometime since I read that book so I can't remembered if he tried that.
@@StylesV13 Well imagine if terra has fell, and all the broken troops notice the beacon lit on it and start going there, and meeting the traitors dug in. yeah that would have been so dumb
It's ALL in the upbringing... first Konor then Big E . The emperor had a contingency plan as well… his was Vulkan. Bobby G didn't think as big as his father
G man week begins! I'm not sure he should feel guilty for the forming of Imperium Secundus 1: because he believed The Emperor could of fell and 2: because it was Sanguineous who was crowned the ruler of the Imperium Secundus not Guilliman !
LOL...Sanguineous was the patsy and the Lion the enforcer. Guilliman was the puppet master and would have crowned himself if neither the Lion or the Angle showed up.
@@Duppyman695 I think Todd Olson said that not me. I just comment on what Lion opinion it whole secundus thing. But if u wonder so my opinion is Roboute proably did the right thing at that time.
@@forspartaaa2348 While that would be awesome I doubt we see Sanguinius or Ferrus Manus resurrection until the Big E is back on his feet. Tho I could be wrong.
Contingency plan to save the Imperium, dropped the instant they had confirmation the Emperor still lived. That and it gave the 3 legions something to do while the other threads were being tied up.
Konor really doesn't get as much respect as he deserves tbh. Guillimans strengths really are way less to do with Primarch powers, and way more to do with stuff that can be taught - leadership, strategy, logistics, etc - obviously his primarch powers let him process all this to an absurdly high level - but the fact remains that these skills were taught to him, by a normal human, and went on to be his greatest strengths Also i never really understood the great taboo of the Secundus, it always just struck me as good, fundamental common sense and the idea that Guilliman was doing it to power grab or was worried about it being perceived as such never really struck me as relevant, considering his giant empire just makes it the most practical choice
I think he was falling back on what he knew at a time of crisis and that's a very human reaction he saw the situation was infinitely bigger than what he can handle so he fell back on his administrative skill and decided to carry on the imperium with or without the emperor with or without Earth
Can’t wait for this to finally come up in a novel and it just be a couple sentences and thrown away. No drama. No guilt. Old news. 10,000 year old news.
I think people give this too much hate as well as Gulliman feeling guilt is weird, he did this with the best of intentions, plus if the Emperor was in any way shape or form not okay with this he would have not given Guilliman reign over the Imperium as Lord Commander. I mean seriously he gave him his sword and basically bid him to continue what he was doing as of the Dark Imperium Trilogy. Sure it may be the case that this was his only option and he is waiting for some other primarch to return, but still the Emperor surely knows of this.
Show me where the Emperor of Mankind decided that Robute Guilliman should be Lord Commander ?? What novel or audio states that ? That's a load of crap ! Guilliman is the runt of the litter of Primarchs! And no where in Dark Imperium series does it say please steal from me and take my sword. That is all propaganda 🙄. Robute Guilliman almost caused a 2nd Civil War!! He stole command with his damn readers digest book.
He did not allow emotion to convince him, this is gulliman,not perturabo .....he had a plan in place (he was already experiencing emotions) but didnt act upon it until further info ...this shows the ability not to just act on emotions but on facts and information/evidence .....the information convinced him ...not his emotion ....he states "would have" because he thinks terra may have been taken by this point therefore the emperor being a "would" not a "will" .....he knows what the emps wouldve wanted based on information he gleamed from the man ...he didnt create a secundus for himself but in the im[periums ideals...he knew that because the emperor approved of his work up to that point unlike with other primarchs ....its good to have a disscussion but for you to make your "what ifs" you would have to negate or ignore a whole load of information we already know about guilliman.....and the emperor
I think, narratively, that's even the point. He made his choices based on pure reason. It was all strategically sound. He committed to removing all emotion from his decision making process, operating only on the knowledge he had available and making purely rational decisions as the strategist he was. And it was all wrong. His entire project ended up pointless and he's left to wonder, had he given in to an emotional impulse to rush to terra and be by his fathers side, would the Horus heresy ended differently?
@@dimwitsixtytwelve I think any conversing and fighting between two primarchs is always interesting but whatever. Plus this is basically the confirmation that Konrad was based on batman. Being a scary bat boy, hellbent on justice having his back broken by one of his rivals.
I don't know if I've ever truly thought about the right or wrong of it. But I will say the Lions plan was the most tactically sound. I understand why he did it. I've just never thought of the argument for or against it. But I will say this. Rowboat sure as shit dismantled secundus in a quick goddamn hurry once he had Intel on the Throne world lol.
If the Ruin Storm wasnt there and Girlyman did that then it would be traitorous but given he couldnt see and it took alot to just get Sanguigas through the Ruin Storm, it was a smart choice to shore up his empire incase things were truly lost and it provided safe heaven for the Blood Angels and the Dark Angels. I am sure other commanders had to do choices like that to ensure a greater victory and they didnt get hounded beside kryptman, seriously crazy.
Not probably.. He was the most successful.. 500 worlds.. No other primarch came close to making something guilliman did.. And he left worlds in better condition after he conquered them..
What I believe is he was so focused on securing the continuation of the empire and the fear that strong forces would be sent off to die further weakening this new burgeoning Empire he just couldn't allow it and the simple fact that he was so afraid of the fact that everything that he knew is gone that he was going to try his hardest to allow this to remain and that was all he was allowing himself to focus on
The reason Secundus is being pumped up so much is this, if Gilligan's detractors get ahold of such information. It could be used against him BIGTIME by his enemies.
I think that Roboute's actions are less about his giving into his emotions, but more about his giving into his prized pragmatism and logic. Given the extreme uncertainty of the Emperor's fate and the seeming impossibility of reaching Terra, in Guilliman's mind the best course of action was to save humanity as a whole and ensure his father's legacy through the creation of a successor Imperium. This is logical. This is also in keeping with his character of refusing to act out of "faith", but rather to act pragmatically and logically. To risk losing everything on a long-shot gamble of somehow finding a way to Terra in time to save his Father would have been an act of faith--faith that his father somehow still endured and that his fleet could find a way through the terrible warp storms. Just as Guilliman later struggles with accepting religious faith that the Emperor is divine, during the heresy he also rejects acting on blind faith for the cold embrace of pragmatism and logic.
I think *all* of the drama around the Imperium Secundus is overblown, but THIS video made at least the excellent point that recontextualizes the entire issue: Roboute gave up. He lost hope, he didnt continue fighting or send a fleet to Terra, he consolidated his realm and tried to move on. If he had marched out to find his Father, perhaps the events of the final days of the Heresy would have played out very differently. That idea might weigh very heavily on Guilliman.
Guilliman already had an Empire when the Emperor found him, the Emperor allowed him to keep his empire within the Imperium, Imperium Secundus was already created before the Heresy. Guilliman is not and never would be a traitor, he is the only Primarch that the Emperor truly trusted to carry on the dream of the Imperium of Man.
After reading through a lot of the comments, I'm sticking with what I have always thought. Guilliman did what he saw as the lesser of evils with the information and knowledge he had at hand. People seem to just gloss over the whole Ruinstorm part of the equation. For all anyone knew, Terra was gone, because that's what everything pointed to. And naming it the way he did showed the clinging to hope he experienced. There is a 40k example in Imperium Nihilus.
I love in The Unremembered Empire when the Lion comes to Macragge, Guilliman says, "Of all my brothers, why did it have to be the Lion?". You have to include his discussions with Euten in seeing where Guilliman's thinking was coming from. Hell, he lost a cogitator during the assassination attempt by the Alpha Legion and he broke up over it realising the extent of the betrayal of his brother, Horus, that he was alone and that nothing would the same again. It almost foreshadows the 40K Guilliman who would kill to have one of his brothers back.
Make more videos like these. PLEASE! content pieces that show primarchs not as the godlike beings everyone belived them to be. But content that rips into them. Shreads that facade of godliness and exposes the human within. Questions their motivations and talks about their vulnerabilities, their missteps along with their successes. I mean most of my love for warhammer and info on lore came from majorkill(love the dude) but his videos are concise and more zoomed out. He gives the overview which is fun interesting and quite a fun watch. But then to suppliment those with detailed videos like yours. Oh i love it.
To be fair to Guilliman, there really were no route open to Terra. the Ruinstorm was of Erebus and Lorgar was impassible. Only the ship carrying Vulkans body made it through, and they only did so, because Magnus the Red decided to help them. Guilliman does not have the broken Crimson King on speed dial, he can't really pull that move. It took three Legions and four Primarchs pulling Destiny-moves to break the Storm, and they all almost died/fell to chaos doing it.
Haven't you done this already? Why keep going back to it? Anyway I don't know why he's guilty about it, it's not as if he wanted to do something out of pure necessity. Also the moment he found out Terra wasn't gone he abolished it, right?
For someone who is reluctant to claim power, he is sure ready to tell people what to do. He's got that Julius Cesar element to him, and I wouldn't call that a bonus, more like a flaw.
Guilliman was preparing to build a new Imperium and he needed all the forces he could get his hands on, especially since the traitors would have come for him next. Focusing on the worst possible outcome was likely an emotional reaction, as he was living through the worst time in his life so far, and likely felt everything was coming to an end.
Guilliman could have left rebuilt the 500, if his dad had lived. But he didn't because he didn't try and confirm if the Emperor was alive or not. He ASSUMED the worst with only the word's of Traitors to go by. Notice it wasn't until his pet project fell through that he tried going to Terra.
The Emperor himself didn't relly on hope. He would do the same in Guilliman's place. He might look guilty with how it all went in the end, but should have his worst fears come to be, his decisions would be the only chance for mankinds survival. Heavy is the burden of the crown.
I think Guilliman was right to form Imperium Secundus with the information he had at that time. Didn't the Emperor say to Malcador that Robute was doing what he was created for in building empires. Then as soon as Robute discovered that Terra was still fighting he disolved the Imperium Secundus. I would assume that he would have a very limited opportunity to form the defenses and troops for Imperium Secundus to succeed so he had to make a lot of hard decisions with limited information.
I mean, he was right to do it. He did not know if Terra had fallen. He had to plan and react like he was all that was left. In that situation, it’s much more logical, and overall just a good idea, to fortify and secure your own position and build your force to take the fight back to the enemy. Throwing himself towards terra not knowing if he’d have any Ally’s when he got there could doom him, it was better to stay where he was. Had he known that Terra hadn’t fallen yet and still did it, then he’d be wrong. But once they figured out Terra wasnt dead yet they all hauled ass to it.
Guilliman shouldn't feel any guilt. He had solid and considered reasons for Imperium Secondus. He didn't seek to position himself as a new Emperor. And as was pointed out by Malcador, Guilliman did what he was created for. And the Emperor didn't react badly to the news. But now the High Lords of Terra and his other enemies using IS as a political weapon.
I am building this lore around some Ordo Chronos Inquisitor investigating a rift which leads them to an alternate version of the Heresy. I am aware of the Dornian Heresy, but mine is totally different and is called: "The Roboute Rebellion". It just writes itself so far. I am having a ton of fun. I have 20 conversions in the works...help!
With the Imperial Fist's specifically, I think he knew he couldn't build and defend and new Imperium without them. So he was desperate for them not to run off to 'destroyed' Terra and die for nothing. To me this explains his uncharacteristic behavior.
Guilliman at this point was unable to return to terra. If he tried it would only result into many many unnecessary deaths and even IF he did so, terra could have truly fallen and he would arrive with a damaged fleet inside the enemies maw. that’s certainly the idea he got from the lack of the emperor’s light. There is no right and wrong… it’s subjective. One person may say he was wrong, one may say he was right even when they share the same “facts” and knowledge regarding this. But what we can be sure of is that Guilliman was always loyal. He would have always done what he thought was the right thing for the emperor and the imperium. And this decision was one he has to make. Either he would face the facts and come to a conclusion that terra had fallen. Or he would pray and have faith that it hadn’t, blindly risking lives of many billions and only possible loyal forces… something the emperor would no doubt scorn. It’s Something he told the salamander… Emperor promoted the idea of reasoning. And guilliman did just that. With the information he had, he made a choice that would burn the fire of the imperium just a bit longer if it had truly burned out, as the facts suggested.
Malador : What is Guilliman doing ?? Emperor : What he is made to do Build empires .... with the info he had at that time what he did is exactly what the emperor wanted/made ..him to do
Guilliman is just like how Churchill described the US, in that it will make the right decision. . .after every other one is exhausted. Guilliman was proceeding according to his planned wisdom to the best of his knowledge. He didn't want for the shattered remnants to be thrown away on a vain attempt. He wanted a practical solution. This is why he's boring but very successful. The Lion however is successful, but never boring, yet he's not an empire builder. The Lion's job was to evaluate the threat of Guilliman, as was mentioned in Vengeful Spirit. The Lion was convinced, so long as the virtuous and trustworthy Sanguinius was the new emperor.
When doing something outside of your norm, you should have a P.A.C.E. plan. Why couldn't he be referring to both of his fathers? He felt that the Emperor was dead and wanted to continue what He started. Gulliman knew that the Emperor would want humanity to continue to rule the universe. His adoptive father wouldn't have wanted this enterprise to fail either. Gulliman knows his thoughts on that matter.
I always liked how G-man was one of the few people in the Imperium that sounded like he had at least some common sense. This though might be me tainted by the newer books and writings that have given people like him, Cawl and Trayzen personalities that make you want to route for them on some level. It's one reason why I really want a returned Russ, his personality is the complete opposite of G-Man, won't listen to G-man and has the colorful personality that could add more flavor to the story lines. On a side note, I wish they made more stories about soldiers in the Gaurd or any other linemen troop (Ork grunt sounds like a fun short story).
He would have doomed those Loyalists to being becalmed in the warp, or worse, if he hadn’t forbid them from trying to go to Terra at that point in time.
It was fateweaver that planted this feelings after his return. During the heresy? Things were not looking any good Horus was screwing them at every corner almost everyone except el Johnson was feeling down .Though Nurgle through Rottigus has released the information about imperium secondus to sow doubt on guilliman's loyalty and probably to start a civil war.
Yes Guillimans big plan to make lion who said no then Sanguinius Emporer of Secundus. Even gave lion a better position too. Hes just pragmatic, i dont get the big deal.
Emperor has appeared to have ascended into a god of mankind. So the big e will be fully aware of what happened. When guilliman then spoke to the big e on terra I think it would have went completely differently if he deemed him a traitor. My take on it anyway.
After this week please rho please by the emperor make a soul drinker video or videos I am a huge simp for them ik u made one for traitor by deed but I do think by your voice and opinions I think u can give new people why people love soul drinkers. FOR DORN! FOR THE EMPEROR! AND FOR FREEDOM! COLD AND FAST SOUL DRINKERS!
at first Guilliman was doing something right but trying to get his brothers home it's going to be hard cuz he said there's no path taken and another thing this is not going to meet me there like I see what's chosen but I think their father should have a contingency plan let's say if one brother fails the next one takes up the mantle uncle's mantle tooo you don't forget about him but if he's destined to lead I hope it is in the greatest intentions to all else and brother salamander get your ass home to stop looking for that mysticaldragon or whatever you looking for solitude in a volcano.
Who said there can only be one imperium. Given the big-e is....well gone Guilliman had every right to do his own shit and create seconudus. In fact all the existing loyal primarchs could have created their own Imperium because they are the sons of the big each. .
The initial founding imperium secundus to me was the inherent flaw in Rebutes logic combined with his ego taking priority. Gulliman claims his mental thinking comprises that of the logical and theoretical but in my option he jumps the the conclusion that Terra has fallen a little too quickly to just be simple cold logic. He didn’t seemingly count on or calculate the ability of Rogal dorn and the imperial fists to hold the traitors back nor did he take the Dark blood angels or space wolves into consideration. It seems this was just a convenient excuse for Gulliman to gather forces to him and do what he does best building empires. The fact he gave himself the title the avenging son the savior of the imperium the last loyal primach to me is Rebute making quick conclusions that just happen to put him in the limelight a opportunity to shine after decades of being in the shadow his other brothers especially Horus. It’s only with the arrivals of The Lion and Sanginius that Gulliman is brought back to reality even then I felt that they spent to much time on Ultrmar rather than try to find a way through the ruinstorm and get to Terra. Even a token force could have distracted the traitor through hit and run attacks and force Horus to station more of his forces in anticipation which could have made a difference during the solar war and the siege of terra.
logically it made sense a fleet headed to the homeworld and all contact was cut it was better to assume your the last man standing. and he built and destroyed 2 legions worth of space marines. He had 2 legions vs his 1 he used his resources. and even stated his father would need a counter attack the imperium's second largest army. And if terra was destroyed. then he can destory and resist. he as well attacked the traitors homeworlds without gullimans little thing they wouldn't have been able to do the counter attack and the civil war would have lasted decades longer.
First off guilliman is called the avenging son because he avenged the death of his adopted father konor. Second the exercise of the theoretical and practical is dependent of what information you have at the time, you create theoretical based what information you have at your disposal and from those theoretical you derive your practical. In the case of Imperium sucundus guilliman was working on certain information. He knew the astronomicon was no longer visible to navigators due to the ruin storm, he also knew that astropathic messages could not be sent again due to the ruin storm. Guilliman also knew that there were at least two traitor legions within the 500 worlds and he knew that the ultramarines legion had been badly mauled by the betrayal at Calth taking close to a hundred thousand casualties, enough cut the ultramarines legion in half. He also knew that due to the pharos he had the only reliable source of warp navigation east of the ruinstorm. At that point he realized he needed to consolidate what forces he had at his disposal and wait out the ruinstorm. He guessed correctly that the imperial fist alone could not defend Terra and eventually they would be overrun. Third it is entirely thanks to guilliman that the Imperium survived the horus heresy. It was the threat of the fresh ultramarines legion only a few hours away that forced horus to do his gamble as he could not keep his forces split. Also the battles of the scouring were carried by the ultramarines and they took by far some of the heaviest casualties of the war at 91% at least.
@@kelman727 math, the ultramarines at their hight had 250,000 astartes. By the time the legions were broken at the second founding there were around 24,000 ultramarines left since the ultramarines founded 23 new chapters and original ultramarines chapter. It actually closer to 90.4% casualties as I did the math in my head.
Justified.. Unselfish as well.. Proof is when he convinced sanguinius to be emperor of imperium secundus instead of him and immediately dissolving secundus when he received news of terra still standing..
He was wrong as he diverted all those troops to Macragge's defense instead of Terra. The Pharos could have been turned on Terra and directed reinforcements there and the Traitors would never have broken the defenses or Controlled space and thus the Emperor us not wounded and Sanguinius doesn't die. The traitors are defeated and never a major threat again.
@@MartinMess false as the traitors had not invaded the Segmentum Solar yet thus if they could make it to Ultramar they could make it to Terra fine and the Dark Angels would not have been in that area they would be at Terra with the Loyalists having 5 legions and the Space Wolves as well they could have easily beaten the traitors. Plus all the small little fleets reinforcing the defenses as well. Horus knew he was limited on time thus why he tried to divide the Empire and attack while it was disorganized.
why people think this was a mistake they didn't know if the emperor were alive they had to do something...and he didn't wanted take the charge. I need the Lion now that he made his protectorate ask forgiveness to guilliman because the lion during the impium secundo was a dick about it and now he did the same
To be perfectly honest this feels so out of character for the G man that I almost want to say Abnett had a massive brain fart when writing it. Specifically countermanding Dorn and trying to talk Zytos out of hoping for Vulkan to still live. In universe though since we can't just blame things on the author having an ever expanding lore to try and keep track of, I'd say it was Guilliman giving in to despair.
Agreed 100%. He's been doing this for a while now, it's starting to get on my nerves lol. Just put RB down for 5 seconds Rho and concentrate on someone else. I'm beginning to suspect heresy.
I must say that poll is very badly worded "Was Roboute Guilliman right or wrong to found the Imperium Secundus?" "Yes, he was in the wrong." "No, it was the right move." You should reword it. You should remove the yes and no, or make it a yes or no question. If you did I bet it would be way more one sided. The only people who seem to think it was a big deal are you and Guilliman.
Avidius Cassius. That's who Roboute Guilliman resembled from history. Having wanted to rule all along, and hearing rumors that the empire "failed", Guilliman set up a second Imperium. He feigns humility, declares it a back-up plan, and even presents another individual as the (puppet) leader at first, while quietly hoping Sanguinius, in his own humility, would cede the position to him.
Tbh, I never liked the Imperium Secundus Idea, it really felt that Guilliman was just protecting his assets while letting everything else burn. He didn't even try to reach Terra, and for communication attempts, the effort was so pathetic it barely counts. Has far has the Loyalist Pimarchs side of the blame for what happened I blame Guilliman and Russ's actions the most, but Russ atleast tryed to do something, even if it was stupid (He should've just stay on Terra and help Dorn)... Guilliman just didn't do anything. Imperium Secundus was a catastrophic failure.
Guilliman is like an environmentalist. He says he loves The Emperor, believes in The Emperor, and is loyal to The Emperor, yet, he didn't believe The Emperor could triumph over a Primarch. Environmentalists are the same with the earth, refusing to believe the planet can survive the consequences of human habitation.
Ugh. You are trying way too hard to make hay out of this. Running out of ideas or something? Not your weakest videos, but definately on the same list. I guess everyone phones it in, sometimes.
What's up with people in England. It has to be a culture thing. I don't get how secondus or Caliban are dramas. It's a nothing burger. The part I dislike is they make these nothings so important to characters and factions. It makes them shallow. It's bad writing.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
I mean, Guilliman was able to convince Lion "I'm gonna cut your head off if I deem you a traitor" El Johnson that his reasoning was sound. I don't think he should feel guilt.
Heat or head? One makes him sound like a killer. One makes him sound like an angry landlord.
@@FnRenner Head. Thanks.
I do find it interesting how Lion, who is infallible according to the Emperor himself, who would always be a loyalist, asked his own son if he was loyal to the Emperor, or loyal to Lion, especially because they should be one in the same.
I believe it's because even though they share the same goal, Lion is effectively given a "pass" on methods that would be deemed not acceptable by the Lords of Terra, which would make his return in 40k so spicy.
I feel that all of Guilliman's actions are justified. Guilliman getting people to Ultramar was smart, he was trying to get as many forces to him as possible to hold back and maybe even defeat Horus. Him making Imperium secondus was also the right thing to do it would also bring lost forces to him and show the Imperium was still around. Guilliman holding men back was the right choice as even though these men could have been used on Terra, Guilliman was unsure of Terras fate so holding men back would lead to a better chance against Horus and reduce life loss at this moment if it turned out that Terra had fell
Look at what happened to (not just a few but probably like 60% mortality rate) those who tore out for Terra. Chaos had the warp in such turmoil on purpose for the very important reason of STOPPING everyone from reaching Terra. There are countless tales of 10s of 1000s of Marines lost in warp transit on their way to Terra. Anyway, Guilliman (being a primarch with a high IQ for a primarch LOL) would probably be WELL AWARE of this and be horrified of the idea of losing large chunks of those most valuable assets just to rush to the emperor's aid on Terra blindly.
Imperium Secundus was the best practical Guilliman could go with based on the information he had stuck behind the Ruinstorm.
Guilliman really had no way of knowing that Horus was winning or losing the war, but his decision of creating the Imperium Secondus was tactically sound by him. Several thousands of enemies space marines from the Word Bearers and World Eaters and their Primarchs were running amok against the Realm of Ultramar, and while Guilliman perhaps could have rushed to Terra, but it was the mere fact that it was Ultramar allowed the Imperium to pushed the Traitors to the Eye of Terror. Perhaps the modern day Imperium couldn’t comprehend that Guilliman did the most tactical and sound decision that even the Emperor would have praised, but that decision allowed the Loyalists destroy the Traitors worlds, resources, and even their logistical support that was torn to shreds by the Lion.
It’s interesting when looking at The G Man. From my lore knowledge he is the only primarch to have both a father in Konor and a mother in Tarasha Euten.
Probably why he is relatively well balanced psychologically lol
@@mduckernz having one parent is psychologically taxing having two provides more psychological comfort and aids in one’s development
I think he also technically had a mother
We're forgetting the fact that Guilliman was not wrong in saying there was no route to Terra. It took an enormous effort of 3 legions to get the Blood Angels past the Ruinstorm later on. If Guilliman had rushed to Terra alone, he almost certainly would not have made it.
I'd say he didn't refuse to hope. He truly believe Terra destroyed and the Emperor dead. He had to establish something to keep people fighting for the empire against Horus or they would have just folded to him. This was vital. He never gave up hope of the Imperium or of his father's dream. He was completely right to do what he did considering the information he believed to be true.
A better question is, if he believed the Emperor dead and Terra destroyed, what else would people expect the most pragmatic primarch to have done except re-establish an Imperium to fight for?
I think too much is made of Secundus. To my mind, the Emperor knows of it already. I don't see a problem with Secundus. It was a sound decision at the time based on info in hand. Not a big deal.
The big deal is the "if" of people finding out about it in 40k, those skeptical of guilliman will paint his decision in the wost light possible in an attempt to undermine him
@@LordAbraxas doesn't matter, he has already show what happens when you try to go against him. This is honestly just a waste of time.
@@Licmebro that didn't stop the high lords, and it won't stop any would be upstarts, and the more guilliman puts down, the more doubt it places in people's minds of his legitimacy,
@@Licmebro the high Lords were just a taste of opposition compared to what would happen if full weight of the ecclesiarchy, inquisition, and even some custodes (looking at you colquan) decide Guilliman was guilty of treason
@@Licmebro Actually no If the masses go against guilliman it'll be bad , to their minds it will be that guilliman instead of aiding the loyalists he instead seized the opportunity to create his own imperium whilst waiting for his father's to die , it is a smear campaign by Rottigus and nurgle to have people loose faith or even attempt to remove guilliman from power , this event has the ability to escalate badly . It may cause a civil war between some loyalist astartes vs ultramarines.
Imperium Secundus. Was a contingency because the Ruinstorm cut off Terra from Ultramar. They didn't know if The Emperor was alive or dead.
Gulliman is no Traitor. He was shoring up Humanity.
Facts!
It took 3 Legions to let the Blood Angels to get past the Ruin Storm.
What would have happened if he had ordered the beacon to be pointed at Terra? It has been sometime since I read that book so I can't remembered if he tried that.
@@StylesV13 Well imagine if terra has fell, and all the broken troops notice the beacon lit on it and start going there, and meeting the traitors dug in. yeah that would have been so dumb
A Interaction for the Interaction God, a Comment for the Comment Throne
It's ALL in the upbringing... first Konor then Big E . The emperor had a contingency plan as well… his was Vulkan. Bobby G didn't think as big as his father
G man week begins! I'm not sure he should feel guilty for the forming of Imperium Secundus 1: because he believed The Emperor could of fell and 2: because it was Sanguineous who was crowned the ruler of the Imperium Secundus not Guilliman !
LOL...Sanguineous was the patsy and the Lion the enforcer. Guilliman was the puppet master and would have crowned himself if neither the Lion or the Angle showed up.
@@toddolson4614 the fact he didn't crown himself when he could have speaks volumes!
If Roboute crowned himself. Lion proably remove Roboute head from his neck.
@@mio87 I thought you said G man was a mastermind and The Lion was a dumb enforcer, surly he could manipulate both The Lion and Sanguineous ... ?
@@Duppyman695 I think Todd Olson said that not me. I just comment on what Lion opinion it whole secundus thing.
But if u wonder so my opinion is Roboute proably did the right thing at that time.
Guilliman doesn't need to feel guilty anything in my opinion. Regrets maybe, but outright guilt. NO
Soon more primarchs will return and oh what a time that will be
🤞 sanguinius return 🥺
@@forspartaaa2348 While that would be awesome I doubt we see Sanguinius or Ferrus Manus resurrection until the Big E is back on his feet. Tho I could be wrong.
Contingency plan to save the Imperium, dropped the instant they had confirmation the Emperor still lived.
That and it gave the 3 legions something to do while the other threads were being tied up.
Konor really doesn't get as much respect as he deserves tbh. Guillimans strengths really are way less to do with Primarch powers, and way more to do with stuff that can be taught - leadership, strategy, logistics, etc - obviously his primarch powers let him process all this to an absurdly high level - but the fact remains that these skills were taught to him, by a normal human, and went on to be his greatest strengths
Also i never really understood the great taboo of the Secundus, it always just struck me as good, fundamental common sense and the idea that Guilliman was doing it to power grab or was worried about it being perceived as such never really struck me as relevant, considering his giant empire just makes it the most practical choice
I think he was falling back on what he knew at a time of crisis and that's a very human reaction he saw the situation was infinitely bigger than what he can handle so he fell back on his administrative skill and decided to carry on the imperium with or without the emperor with or without Earth
Can’t wait for this to finally come up in a novel and it just be a couple sentences and thrown away. No drama. No guilt. Old news. 10,000 year old news.
I think people give this too much hate as well as Gulliman feeling guilt is weird, he did this with the best of intentions, plus if the Emperor was in any way shape or form not okay with this he would have not given Guilliman reign over the Imperium as Lord Commander.
I mean seriously he gave him his sword and basically bid him to continue what he was doing as of the Dark Imperium Trilogy.
Sure it may be the case that this was his only option and he is waiting for some other primarch to return, but still the Emperor surely knows of this.
Show me where the Emperor of Mankind decided that Robute Guilliman should be Lord Commander ?? What novel or audio states that ? That's a load of crap ! Guilliman is the runt of the litter of Primarchs! And no where in Dark Imperium series does it say please steal from me and take my sword. That is all propaganda 🙄. Robute Guilliman almost caused a 2nd Civil War!! He stole command with his damn readers digest book.
He did not allow emotion to convince him, this is gulliman,not perturabo .....he had a plan in place (he was already experiencing emotions) but didnt act upon it until further info ...this shows the ability not to just act on emotions but on facts and information/evidence .....the information convinced him ...not his emotion ....he states "would have" because he thinks terra may have been taken by this point therefore the emperor being a "would" not a "will" .....he knows what the emps wouldve wanted based on information he gleamed from the man ...he didnt create a secundus for himself but in the im[periums ideals...he knew that because the emperor approved of his work up to that point unlike with other primarchs ....its good to have a disscussion but for you to make your "what ifs" you would have to negate or ignore a whole load of information we already know about guilliman.....and the emperor
I think, narratively, that's even the point. He made his choices based on pure reason. It was all strategically sound. He committed to removing all emotion from his decision making process, operating only on the knowledge he had available and making purely rational decisions as the strategist he was.
And it was all wrong. His entire project ended up pointless and he's left to wonder, had he given in to an emotional impulse to rush to terra and be by his fathers side, would the Horus heresy ended differently?
A bit off topic but I was wondering if you could do a video on the Lion breaking Konrads back?
Doesn’t sound that interesting 🤔
Great general. Terrible chiropractor.
@@dimwitsixtytwelve I think any conversing and fighting between two primarchs is always interesting but whatever.
Plus this is basically the confirmation that Konrad was based on batman. Being a scary bat boy, hellbent on justice having his back broken by one of his rivals.
@@postwar142 King Arthur/Tarzan beats up Batman.
I don't know if I've ever truly thought about the right or wrong of it. But I will say the Lions plan was the most tactically sound. I understand why he did it. I've just never thought of the argument for or against it. But I will say this. Rowboat sure as shit dismantled secundus in a quick goddamn hurry once he had Intel on the Throne world lol.
Exactly, and he, Hawkeboy and the Lion bared that guilt all throughout the Ruinstorm book
Shouldn't you be out hunting the fallen though?..
@@lavatun multi-tasking brother
The universally beloved Sanguinius was in charge of Secundus. I do not think this story line will go anywhere.
If the Ruin Storm wasnt there and Girlyman did that then it would be traitorous but given he couldnt see and it took alot to just get Sanguigas through the Ruin Storm, it was a smart choice to shore up his empire incase things were truly lost and it provided safe heaven for the Blood Angels and the Dark Angels.
I am sure other commanders had to do choices like that to ensure a greater victory and they didnt get hounded beside kryptman, seriously crazy.
Gulliman gets so much hate from the 40kers but gotta be honest I think he's probably the most successful primarch
and i would even add the closes to the emperor as well (as in being similar)
He got best place to grow up on compare to all his brothers. And also he got two parents. That is good start.
Not probably.. He was the most successful.. 500 worlds.. No other primarch came close to making something guilliman did.. And he left worlds in better condition after he conquered them..
@@lavatun Its because its "Cool" to hate Ultramarines.
Moatly due to the Matt Ward Era
But Guilliman is very well written, so i dont see the hate
@@adrienwatson2179 ah, yes.. Matt ward. . . .
What I believe is he was so focused on securing the continuation of the empire and the fear that strong forces would be sent off to die further weakening this new burgeoning Empire he just couldn't allow it and the simple fact that he was so afraid of the fact that everything that he knew is gone that he was going to try his hardest to allow this to remain and that was all he was allowing himself to focus on
The reason Secundus is being pumped up so much is this, if Gilligan's detractors get ahold of such information. It could be used against him BIGTIME by his enemies.
I think that Roboute's actions are less about his giving into his emotions, but more about his giving into his prized pragmatism and logic. Given the extreme uncertainty of the Emperor's fate and the seeming impossibility of reaching Terra, in Guilliman's mind the best course of action was to save humanity as a whole and ensure his father's legacy through the creation of a successor Imperium. This is logical. This is also in keeping with his character of refusing to act out of "faith", but rather to act pragmatically and logically. To risk losing everything on a long-shot gamble of somehow finding a way to Terra in time to save his Father would have been an act of faith--faith that his father somehow still endured and that his fleet could find a way through the terrible warp storms. Just as Guilliman later struggles with accepting religious faith that the Emperor is divine, during the heresy he also rejects acting on blind faith for the cold embrace of pragmatism and logic.
I think *all* of the drama around the Imperium Secundus is overblown, but THIS video made at least the excellent point that recontextualizes the entire issue: Roboute gave up. He lost hope, he didnt continue fighting or send a fleet to Terra, he consolidated his realm and tried to move on. If he had marched out to find his Father, perhaps the events of the final days of the Heresy would have played out very differently. That idea might weigh very heavily on Guilliman.
Ruinstorm, remember...?
@@kelman727 yes yes, we've all seen the time-knife.
@theredditexperience1 they literally found a way later on so clearly it was possible, Newton.
Guilliman already had an Empire when the Emperor found him, the Emperor allowed him to keep his empire within the Imperium, Imperium Secundus was already created before the Heresy.
Guilliman is not and never would be a traitor, he is the only Primarch that the Emperor truly trusted to carry on the dream of the Imperium of Man.
He was tempted by the Ruinous Powers in Ruinstorm and proved himself loyal
After reading through a lot of the comments, I'm sticking with what I have always thought. Guilliman did what he saw as the lesser of evils with the information and knowledge he had at hand. People seem to just gloss over the whole Ruinstorm part of the equation. For all anyone knew, Terra was gone, because that's what everything pointed to. And naming it the way he did showed the clinging to hope he experienced. There is a 40k example in Imperium Nihilus.
I love in The Unremembered Empire when the Lion comes to Macragge, Guilliman says, "Of all my brothers, why did it have to be the Lion?".
You have to include his discussions with Euten in seeing where Guilliman's thinking was coming from. Hell, he lost a cogitator during the assassination attempt by the Alpha Legion and he broke up over it realising the extent of the betrayal of his brother, Horus, that he was alone and that nothing would the same again. It almost foreshadows the 40K Guilliman who would kill to have one of his brothers back.
He knew he was doing what he was made to do. No guilt. He was thinking in a proactive manner. There’s nothing there.
Make more videos like these. PLEASE! content pieces that show primarchs not as the godlike beings everyone belived them to be. But content that rips into them. Shreads that facade of godliness and exposes the human within. Questions their motivations and talks about their vulnerabilities, their missteps along with their successes.
I mean most of my love for warhammer and info on lore came from majorkill(love the dude) but his videos are concise and more zoomed out. He gives the overview which is fun interesting and quite a fun watch. But then to suppliment those with detailed videos like yours. Oh i love it.
*Imperium Secundus is formed
Every xenos in the galaxy: "This is getting out of hand, now there are two of them!"
It was a contingency he created because he did not know the fate of the Imperium, whether it was alive or dead. I don't see the problem.
G-BABY did his best in dealing with the Schrödindgers Emperor dilemma. The real issue is the reaction of ppl learning about his decision in 40k
RG- the only primarch with 2 parents. Technically 3.
The Imperium:Fighting for survival.
Guilliman initiating Imperium Secundus:”King in the castle, King in the castle”
I can see this being a Barry Walts meme in 4-6 hours
He is "The Uncrowned Monarch" in The Board is Set short story
- Lord Inquisitor Rho making his closing argument before declaring Guilliman a heretic and sending him on a penitent crusade.
and all of that is moot as we know in 40k Guilliman is running the show with the blessing of the emps.
@@The_Note_lt Black Templars: REEEEEEEEE!!
To be fair to Guilliman, there really were no route open to Terra. the Ruinstorm was of Erebus and Lorgar was impassible. Only the ship carrying Vulkans body made it through, and they only did so, because Magnus the Red decided to help them. Guilliman does not have the broken Crimson King on speed dial, he can't really pull that move. It took three Legions and four Primarchs pulling Destiny-moves to break the Storm, and they all almost died/fell to chaos doing it.
His attitude with the salamander is easy to understand. Hope for the best plan for the worst. Makes sense
Haven't you done this already? Why keep going back to it? Anyway I don't know why he's guilty about it, it's not as if he wanted to do something out of pure necessity. Also the moment he found out Terra wasn't gone he abolished it, right?
For someone who is reluctant to claim power, he is sure ready to tell people what to do. He's got that Julius Cesar element to him, and I wouldn't call that a bonus, more like a flaw.
Guilliman was preparing to build a new Imperium and he needed all the forces he could get his hands on, especially since the traitors would have come for him next.
Focusing on the worst possible outcome was likely an emotional reaction, as he was living through the worst time in his life so far, and likely felt everything was coming to an end.
Guilliman could have left rebuilt the 500, if his dad had lived. But he didn't because he didn't try and confirm if the Emperor was alive or not. He ASSUMED the worst with only the word's of Traitors to go by. Notice it wasn't until his pet project fell through that he tried going to Terra.
His pet project fell because he learned the emps was still alive and kicking.
The Emperor himself didn't relly on hope. He would do the same in Guilliman's place. He might look guilty with how it all went in the end, but should have his worst fears come to be, his decisions would be the only chance for mankinds survival. Heavy is the burden of the crown.
I think Guilliman was right to form Imperium Secundus with the information he had at that time. Didn't the Emperor say to Malcador that Robute was doing what he was created for in building empires. Then as soon as Robute discovered that Terra was still fighting he disolved the Imperium Secundus. I would assume that he would have a very limited opportunity to form the defenses and troops for Imperium Secundus to succeed so he had to make a lot of hard decisions with limited information.
I mean, he was right to do it. He did not know if Terra had fallen. He had to plan and react like he was all that was left. In that situation, it’s much more logical, and overall just a good idea, to fortify and secure your own position and build your force to take the fight back to the enemy. Throwing himself towards terra not knowing if he’d have any Ally’s when he got there could doom him, it was better to stay where he was.
Had he known that Terra hadn’t fallen yet and still did it, then he’d be wrong. But once they figured out Terra wasnt dead yet they all hauled ass to it.
Haven't understood why secundus would be a big deal plot line wise until this video.
I guess one of Roboute flaw is he see "cup as half empty than half full" am I right?
Guilliman shouldn't feel any guilt. He had solid and considered reasons for Imperium Secondus. He didn't seek to position himself as a new Emperor. And as was pointed out by Malcador, Guilliman did what he was created for. And the Emperor didn't react badly to the news. But now the High Lords of Terra and his other enemies using IS as a political weapon.
Papa smurf week every years pls
I am building this lore around some Ordo Chronos Inquisitor investigating a rift which leads them to an alternate version of the Heresy. I am aware of the Dornian Heresy, but mine is totally different and is called: "The Roboute Rebellion". It just writes itself so far. I am having a ton of fun. I have 20 conversions in the works...help!
With the Imperial Fist's specifically, I think he knew he couldn't build and defend and new Imperium without them. So he was desperate for them not to run off to 'destroyed' Terra and die for nothing. To me this explains his uncharacteristic behavior.
He did his job as a Primarch, it was what he was meant to do. They all had their roles
Except Leman he was the emperors executioner and failed hard in the moment which counted
Guilliman at this point was unable to return to terra. If he tried it would only result into many many unnecessary deaths and even IF he did so, terra could have truly fallen and he would arrive with a damaged fleet inside the enemies maw. that’s certainly the idea he got from the lack of the emperor’s light.
There is no right and wrong… it’s subjective. One person may say he was wrong, one may say he was right even when they share the same “facts” and knowledge regarding this.
But what we can be sure of is that Guilliman was always loyal. He would have always done what he thought was the right thing for the emperor and the imperium.
And this decision was one he has to make. Either he would face the facts and come to a conclusion that terra had fallen. Or he would pray and have faith that it hadn’t, blindly risking lives of many billions and only possible loyal forces… something the emperor would no doubt scorn. It’s Something he told the salamander…
Emperor promoted the idea of reasoning. And guilliman did just that. With the information he had, he made a choice that would burn the fire of the imperium just a bit longer if it had truly burned out, as the facts suggested.
Malador : What is Guilliman doing ??
Emperor : What he is made to do Build empires ....
with the info he had at that time what he did is exactly what the emperor wanted/made ..him to do
His designation was "The Uncrowned Monarch" in the game Big E and Malc play in The Board is Set
Guilliman is just like how Churchill described the US, in that it will make the right decision. . .after every other one is exhausted.
Guilliman was proceeding according to his planned wisdom to the best of his knowledge.
He didn't want for the shattered remnants to be thrown away on a vain attempt. He wanted a practical solution.
This is why he's boring but very successful.
The Lion however is successful, but never boring, yet he's not an empire builder.
The Lion's job was to evaluate the threat of Guilliman, as was mentioned in Vengeful Spirit.
The Lion was convinced, so long as the virtuous and trustworthy Sanguinius was the new emperor.
"Of ALL my brothers, why did it have to be The Lion?" Unremembered Empire
@@marcustrajan4873, CLASSIC line!
Splitting the Imperium, a repeat of the Horus Heresy coming next!
When doing something outside of your norm, you should have a P.A.C.E. plan.
Why couldn't he be referring to both of his fathers? He felt that the Emperor was dead and wanted to continue what He started. Gulliman knew that the Emperor would want humanity to continue to rule the universe. His adoptive father wouldn't have wanted this enterprise to fail either. Gulliman knows his thoughts on that matter.
I always liked how G-man was one of the few people in the Imperium that sounded like he had at least some common sense. This though might be me tainted by the newer books and writings that have given people like him, Cawl and Trayzen personalities that make you want to route for them on some level. It's one reason why I really want a returned Russ, his personality is the complete opposite of G-Man, won't listen to G-man and has the colorful personality that could add more flavor to the story lines.
On a side note, I wish they made more stories about soldiers in the Gaurd or any other linemen troop (Ork grunt sounds like a fun short story).
He would have doomed those Loyalists to being becalmed in the warp, or worse, if he hadn’t forbid them from trying to go to Terra at that point in time.
The three legions barely got out in the Ruinstorm book with only legion that could make it to Terra
Hopelessness, sadness, cons8gned to defeat.... Nurgle sure likes sowing these things. Could Roboute have been manipulated by the grandfather?
It was fateweaver that planted this feelings after his return. During the heresy? Things were not looking any good Horus was screwing them at every corner almost everyone except el Johnson was feeling down .Though Nurgle through Rottigus has released the information about imperium secondus to sow doubt on guilliman's loyalty and probably to start a civil war.
Yes Guillimans big plan to make lion who said no then Sanguinius Emporer of Secundus. Even gave lion a better position too. Hes just pragmatic, i dont get the big deal.
Emperor has appeared to have ascended into a god of mankind. So the big e will be fully aware of what happened. When guilliman then spoke to the big e on terra I think it would have went completely differently if he deemed him a traitor. My take on it anyway.
It was approved by sanguinius and the lion, two of the emperors most loyal sons, I think he gets a pass
After this week please rho please by the emperor make a soul drinker video or videos I am a huge simp for them ik u made one for traitor by deed but I do think by your voice and opinions I think u can give new people why people love soul drinkers.
FOR DORN! FOR THE EMPEROR! AND FOR FREEDOM!
COLD AND FAST SOUL DRINKERS!
Guilliman's great sin was the primaris travesty.
at first Guilliman was doing something right but trying to get his brothers home it's going to be hard cuz he said there's no path taken and another thing this is not going to meet me there like I see what's chosen but I think their father should have a contingency plan let's say if one brother fails the next one takes up the mantle uncle's mantle tooo you don't forget about him but if he's destined to lead I hope it is in the greatest intentions to all else and brother salamander get your ass home to stop looking for that mysticaldragon or whatever you looking for solitude in a volcano.
Who said there can only be one imperium.
Given the big-e is....well gone Guilliman had every right to do his own shit and create seconudus. In fact all the existing loyal primarchs could have created their own Imperium because they are the sons of the big each. .
The initial founding imperium secundus to me was the inherent flaw in Rebutes logic combined with his ego taking priority.
Gulliman claims his mental thinking comprises that of the logical and theoretical but in my option he jumps the the conclusion that Terra has fallen a little too quickly to just be simple cold logic.
He didn’t seemingly count on or calculate the ability of Rogal dorn and the imperial fists to hold the traitors back nor did he take the Dark blood angels or space wolves into consideration.
It seems this was just a convenient excuse for Gulliman to gather forces to him and do what he does best building empires. The fact he gave himself the title the avenging son the savior of the imperium the last loyal primach to me is Rebute making quick conclusions that just happen to put him in the limelight a opportunity to shine after decades of being in the shadow his other brothers especially Horus.
It’s only with the arrivals of The Lion and Sanginius that Gulliman is brought back to reality even then I felt that they spent to much time on Ultrmar rather than try to find a way through the ruinstorm and get to Terra.
Even a token force could have distracted the traitor through hit and run attacks and force Horus to station more of his forces in anticipation which could have made a difference during the solar war and the siege of terra.
logically it made sense a fleet headed to the homeworld and all contact was cut it was better to assume your the last man standing. and he built and destroyed 2 legions worth of space marines. He had 2 legions vs his 1 he used his resources. and even stated his father would need a counter attack the imperium's second largest army. And if terra was destroyed. then he can destory and resist. he as well attacked the traitors homeworlds without gullimans little thing they wouldn't have been able to do the counter attack and the civil war would have lasted decades longer.
First off guilliman is called the avenging son because he avenged the death of his adopted father konor. Second the exercise of the theoretical and practical is dependent of what information you have at the time, you create theoretical based what information you have at your disposal and from those theoretical you derive your practical.
In the case of Imperium sucundus guilliman was working on certain information. He knew the astronomicon was no longer visible to navigators due to the ruin storm, he also knew that astropathic messages could not be sent again due to the ruin storm. Guilliman also knew that there were at least two traitor legions within the 500 worlds and he knew that the ultramarines legion had been badly mauled by the betrayal at Calth taking close to a hundred thousand casualties, enough cut the ultramarines legion in half. He also knew that due to the pharos he had the only reliable source of warp navigation east of the ruinstorm. At that point he realized he needed to consolidate what forces he had at his disposal and wait out the ruinstorm. He guessed correctly that the imperial fist alone could not defend Terra and eventually they would be overrun.
Third it is entirely thanks to guilliman that the Imperium survived the horus heresy. It was the threat of the fresh ultramarines legion only a few hours away that forced horus to do his gamble as he could not keep his forces split. Also the battles of the scouring were carried by the ultramarines and they took by far some of the heaviest casualties of the war at 91% at least.
Because...the plot required it.
@@colinbielat8558
Source for 91% please.
@@kelman727 math, the ultramarines at their hight had 250,000 astartes. By the time the legions were broken at the second founding there were around 24,000 ultramarines left since the ultramarines founded 23 new chapters and original ultramarines chapter. It actually closer to 90.4% casualties as I did the math in my head.
Justified.. Unselfish as well.. Proof is when he convinced sanguinius to be emperor of imperium secundus instead of him and immediately dissolving secundus when he received news of terra still standing..
He was wrong as he diverted all those troops to Macragge's defense instead of Terra. The Pharos could have been turned on Terra and directed reinforcements there and the Traitors would never have broken the defenses or Controlled space and thus the Emperor us not wounded and Sanguinius doesn't die. The traitors are defeated and never a major threat again.
Or those small single fleets would have been destroyed by the traitors leaving the last loyal bit of space vulnerable
@@MartinMess false as the traitors had not invaded the Segmentum Solar yet thus if they could make it to Ultramar they could make it to Terra fine and the Dark Angels would not have been in that area they would be at Terra with the Loyalists having 5 legions and the Space Wolves as well they could have easily beaten the traitors. Plus all the small little fleets reinforcing the defenses as well. Horus knew he was limited on time thus why he tried to divide the Empire and attack while it was disorganized.
why people think this was a mistake they didn't know if the emperor were alive they had to do something...and he didn't wanted take the charge. I need the Lion now that he made his protectorate ask forgiveness to guilliman because the lion during the impium secundo was a dick about it and now he did the same
Wow i didn't know he withheld reinforcements to the throne world i look down on guillimen for that
To be perfectly honest this feels so out of character for the G man that I almost want to say Abnett had a massive brain fart when writing it. Specifically countermanding Dorn and trying to talk Zytos out of hoping for Vulkan to still live. In universe though since we can't just blame things on the author having an ever expanding lore to try and keep track of, I'd say it was Guilliman giving in to despair.
Yo homie, you've been hating on the big blue for awhile now...
Agreed 100%. He's been doing this for a while now, it's starting to get on my nerves lol. Just put RB down for 5 seconds Rho and concentrate on someone else.
I'm beginning to suspect heresy.
Who cares whether the emperor approves or not lol it’s done deal with it lol
I must say that poll is very badly worded "Was Roboute Guilliman right or wrong to found the Imperium Secundus?" "Yes, he was in the wrong." "No, it was the right move." You should reword it. You should remove the yes and no, or make it a yes or no question. If you did I bet it would be way more one sided.
The only people who seem to think it was a big deal are you and Guilliman.
Avidius Cassius. That's who Roboute Guilliman resembled from history. Having wanted to rule all along, and hearing rumors that the empire "failed", Guilliman set up a second Imperium. He feigns humility, declares it a back-up plan, and even presents another individual as the (puppet) leader at first, while quietly hoping Sanguinius, in his own humility, would cede the position to him.
Yeah Lord Inquisitor this is the traitor who spreads heresy over there ^
Tbh, I never liked the Imperium Secundus Idea, it really felt that Guilliman was just protecting his assets while letting everything else burn. He didn't even try to reach Terra, and for communication attempts, the effort was so pathetic it barely counts. Has far has the Loyalist Pimarchs side of the blame for what happened I blame Guilliman and Russ's actions the most, but Russ atleast tryed to do something, even if it was stupid (He should've just stay on Terra and help Dorn)... Guilliman just didn't do anything. Imperium Secundus was a catastrophic failure.
He's definitely guilty!!
Guilliman is like an environmentalist. He says he loves The Emperor, believes in The Emperor, and is loyal to The Emperor, yet, he didn't believe The Emperor could triumph over a Primarch. Environmentalists are the same with the earth, refusing to believe the planet can survive the consequences of human habitation.
Ugh. You are trying way too hard to make hay out of this. Running out of ideas or something? Not your weakest videos, but definately on the same list. I guess everyone phones it in, sometimes.
What's up with people in England. It has to be a culture thing. I don't get how secondus or Caliban are dramas. It's a nothing burger. The part I dislike is they make these nothings so important to characters and factions. It makes them shallow. It's bad writing.
Your writing is as impoverished as your conclusions.
@@kelman727 my grammar is about as bad as your teeth.
What the actions described shows is just that writers didn't know what they were writing and didn't understood the character.