I think his intentions were altruistic and based on the information he had. Sanguinius reluctantly saw it as the best case scenario that was open to them and hey, he managed to sell the idea to Lion as well and that guy was ready to drop the hammer on Rob had he found him even remotely out of line. Further, once Lion came back with the reveal that Terra likely still stood, all 3 put a plan together and immediately set out to try and find a way through the Ruinstorm to Terra, rather than stay and consolidate. Furthermore, the Emperor didn't seem upset when Malcador has his chat with him. I'll be interested to see if Sanguinius says anything to his father about it in the remaining HH books before we lose him.
See people criticise Guilliman for Imperium Secundus, but he didnt make himself Emperor, he's doing what his father created him to do. His father didn't seem bothered by what he did. Furthermore, his father keeps saving his life like after he's injected with the Godblight. For me Guilliman is one of the rare 'good' people in 40k he's just trying to do the best he can even the custodes can see he doesn't want power.
If I remember right, Guilliman didn't know if the Imperium was still standing. He didn't know if his father was alive. Guilliman is an empire builder. For all intents and purposes, Ultramar was and is the greatest stronghold, and empire within an empire. If anything, the Empire of Humanity lucked out that it was Horus and not Guilliman that turned.
@@murdock94 Guilliman turning to chaos would've been... absolutely devastating. And extremely awkward if he and Lorgar ever met while being on the same side.
I think Guilliman was designed to be a all shit last resort backup for humanity. If the imperium was to fall but Guilliman lived then he would make a last bastion of humanity. Due to Guillimans pragmatism too he probably aim to make that bastion like humanity was during the dark age of technology.
@@andrewrobb3258 He was, He made the Ultarmar system the greatest in the Imperium. Over 500 Worlds that developed into an Empire. Guilliman is a world class statesman and general.
Guilliman is an intensely pragmatic Primarch. Secundus made sense with the information he had. I never looked at what he did as any sort of betrayal of his father. He did what he was created to do. Once new facts emerged-he changed his actions and focused on getting to Terra as quickly as he could. Nothing wrong with what he did at all.
Papa Smurf: Dante, I need you to establish a strong hold on the other side of the great rift. Dante: Like some sort of secundus Imperium? Papa Smurf: .......more like nihalus.....yeah nihalus.
Guillermen: don’t worry Dante you have to deal with this until I wake up the lion and convince my eldar GF to bring back your dad then it’s their problem.
I Think with Ultramar expanding it's boarders, Dante in control of the other side of the rift and the fact we know G-Man likes backup plans, I think I know what he is up to. I think he is dividing the responsibilities of running the massive Imperiaum of man into parts under a greater umbrella. With this if a large failure happens like the heresy then only part of the Imperium is in trouble while others can still operate even if help in comms are cut off. This falls in line with how G-man works, he divided the Marines into chapters so they can watch each other, he might be doing this on a galactic scale do to the rampant corruption in the current system. This is all just a guess though, but it would fit his character type. Edit: GW could make Fenris "Warden of the North" for ultimate cringe, just popped in my head.
Guilliman made the right call based on the incorrect, but very plausible assumption, that Terra had fallen. Even Lion, who initially went to Ultramar to stop him, backed Secundus when he heard the reasoning.
Secundus wasnt best sollution when we look on whole Heresy, but from perspective of Guilliman, giving scraps of informations he had, like death of his brothers, it was most logical decission. And becasue he know now, that the safest way is not always the best he doesnt want to abonddon Imperium Nilus, despite many considering it lost case
Why did lionel johnson and sanguinious agree with imperium secundus? Because it is an idea born of loyalty not treason. Loyalty to an idea, a dream. A dream once called imperium of man
In the Siege of Terra Series, Rogal Dorn has an evacuation plan for the Emperor incase the Battle to defend the Golden Throne failed. The question is where would Rogal Dorn bring the Emperor and all the surviving Solar forces escaping the War Master’s forces go to after fighting their way out of the Terran Solar System? Can we imagine Guilliman surprising the Emperor and Malcador including Rogal, Volkan, Kahn, that he has already created a Fall-Back-Throne of Terra at Ultramar waiting for them to re-establish a governing body to manage what remains of the Imperium and continue the fight against Horus and take back everything they have lost, from Ultramar. “All is not lost” I imagine Guilliman saying to the Emperor, Malcador, and his brothers.
"Secundus" does not always mean separate. It can also mean auxiliary, inside of, nested, or branching out or stemming from. At the end of the day, one cannot view this as vassal states not responding to a banner call. The entire Imperium was on war footing, and each facet has to be considered as if the various segmentum were elements made up of units deployed on a battlefield. "Guilliman worked with what he KNEW and he didn't KNOW if Terra still stood, so that means he should have waited to find out." No, the exact opposite is, from a logistic and strategic standpoint, the best course of action. It is better to do something unnecessary now - and later find out it was unneeded, than to pause and through inaction lose your only chance of acting. Given the "unknown" of the Imperium crumbling, the "unknown" of impossible navigation through the pitch black turbulent seas, the "unknown" of who had turned and who had died; and the "known" 500 planets, the "known" troop numbers, the "known" fleet compositions and the "known" loyal legions, it would be better to reinforce your held position and try to establish a muster point and staging area to try and organise an offensive. The Empire of Ultramar was already everything the Imperium could ever hope to be and achieve before the Emperor found them. Such a place would be the best, and in this case only, place that would serve such a purpose. In all honesty, worrying about whether the President or Prime Minister of your nation is alive and giving orders means nothing when you're across an ocean, surrounded on all sides, with no support, communications or supply lines, and being bombed by elements that all supplied intel told you were allies. You would really only "know" that you were being attacked, that you weren't getting out, and that you weren't being rescued. Your squad, company or battalion, the position you were holding and your tangible, physical resources would be the only thing that you would "know." In that position, NO company commander would consider something like "Holding cover here isn't the right play - the Field Marshall may or may not be alive somewhere over there, so we should abandon this position to get on a boat and sail blindly into a hostile ocean with no communication or navigation equipment, while being beset on all side by an unknown number of hostile forces." You have to focus on the first day, then the first week, then establishing a foundation to start gathering what intel and opening communications you can. Once you have that, you might be in a position to worry about what's going on around the other side of the world.
Here is a very simple reason Imperium Secundus was a good idea: The Administratum is the reason for 90% of the Imperium's woes. Tithing squeezes planets beyond capacity and getting the grade (IIRC that's what it was called) adjusted is next to impossible and getting help requests to not die somewhere on a desk is even worse. Guilliman was designed, above all else, as a bureaucrat. If we accept that the Primarchs were created using Warp shenanigans he might in fact be a better bureaucrat than the Emperor, Malcador and the Custodes combined, meaning he has a REALLY good shot at making the pencil pushing actually lead somewhere. When you aid and tax people consistently and get material where it needs to be on time a whole lot of other problems suddenly start looking a lot less awful.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication dude why bother with beurocracy when you could mind blast all who oppose you . Seriously though what makes you think because guilliman is made through warp shenanigans hes a better beurocrat than the emperor and malcador , they too came to being through warp shenanigans plus bureaucracy involves a lot of convincing , logistics and planning , the emperor being a god tier telepath could do and does it better than guilliman, he was a master schemer second maybe to tzeentch himself as evidenced in two metaphysical blades where valdor saw the emperor make a seemingly random act that would create a dominoe effect destroying his powerful political opponent three centuries later .
Good thing that he didnt fall to Chaos, or Imperium would be doomed. Imagine 9 legions of Astrates and demons under his rule. Organized Chaos Undivided
@@licensed_beheader Because he's a custom job designed precisely for that role. Malcador & Big E are all-rounders, whereas Guilliman was from the ground designed to make pencil pushers work better at pushing pencils. A master schemer wins. Doesn't mean he's going to be good at creating a bureaucracy that doesn't lose track of planets that just so happen to not be industrial powerhouses.
@@macshadow1150 YEPPP. Horus had the sway but a Chaos Guiliman would for example recruit literally millions of cultists to be trained hands-on by the Word Bearers and turned Iterators and send them in alongside Alpha Legionaires. Then just swoop in once everything has sufficiently degraded with whoever is currently best suited for the job.
If Guilliman didn’t create the SECUNDUS then the event wouldn’t have gathered the 2 loyalist legions to Ultramar, this 2 Legions were traveling blind without the Light-of-the-Astronomicon, the Navagators cannot just just direct the entire Fleet of 3 Legions to the direction of Terra without using the Warp, it would take them Centuries to get to Terra without Warp travel. Also as I remember from the Ruinstorm novel, the 3 brothers agree after planet Davin that Sanguineous travel to Terra and Guilliman and the Lion attack the Traitors supply lines and slow down the War Master’s forces giving Rogal Dorn more time to build more fortifications to defend Terra from the upcoming war. I mean there was enough time bought to even have a mother of all Titan Battles at another solar system depleting the Titan Legions of Mars and Terra before the Siege of Terra
My arguements for voting yes were for once the Emperors reaction and approval, but also Robute running damage control being the reasonable reaction. Lets not forget: Imperium Secundus did allow the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Lost Legions to regroup. When assuming the throneworld had already fallen it really wouldn't be the reasonable decision to rush back. Not saying I don't understand the counter arguements, but secureing a baseand fail safe is definetly the most important start. And then the real reason is me being a loyal follower of Sanguinius and I'm having a lot of respect for the Lion. Those two definetly validate a lot of the choice.
How Guilliman never looked down on most of his brothers with open disdain I'll never know, the fact he doesn't is a reflection on his character. He'd built a massive almost utopian empire (comparatively) before E money even turned up. Meanwhile people like Konrad are off playing batman.
Imperium Secundus was already made before the Emperor found Guilliman, he had an empire and was allowed to keep his empire within the Imperium of Man. Guilliman is the only Primarch that the Emperor trusted to protect the Imperium of Man.
I feel like G man is the only one to get yelled at cuz the others frankly would of punched the people out for even trying to get dirt on their names. He is the nicest and actually willing to hear people out so they fling like mad without knowing the reasons why he did what he did.. atleast he didnt make super ork tyranids.
If it was like some kid who came up with the 20 Primarchs and which is going to ultra bollocks it up, I think Jathai.. the Khan or Pervry would of been better deattached from all this lore. Lore is lovely but it constricts ideas abit too much for something that may a Super Gutpunch vs a Gut Punch.
Imperium Secondus was a contingency plan. It was enacted to be a successor to THE Imperium, not as its rival. As best anyone knew, Terra was gone. Guiliman voted to make his brother Emperor instead of himself, and was even handing over his Empire of 500 Worlds to be the base home of IS. What else was he to do? Just let the galaxy burn let humanity fail?
@@trajanfidelis yeah, how about you running into a burning building without protected gear to see if there is anyone still inside knowing it may as well kill you before you can do anything
Excellent video! We must remember that Alexis Pollux upon arriving in Macragge warns Guilliman that Dorn was summoning everyone to return to Holy Terra, so the cradle of humanity still stands. If we add that to the fact that Guilliman considers Dorn incorruptible, it's only to be expected that Roboute's analytical mind would at least investigate by sending forces to Terra.
Rebuttal to criticism against Imperium Secundus founding: 1- There were very strong indications that Terra had fallen, and the issue was that the existence of Terra could not have any proof. They had no way of getting any proof of Terra's survival. That obviates ALL assumption of Terra's existence in the decision making process. If they just cast their forces out into the galactic ruinstorm, those would be lost. Keep in mind, the Tchulka engine was not known to Guilliman. He did not know of it as an option. Sanguinius was also not in attendance until later. Sanguinius also was a motivation to go to Terra because of his visions. In fact, the evidence to EVER go to Terra was pretty thin. Thankfully, the Lion made the right call. 2- Only half of the Dark Angels legion was present. The other half was under the command of Corswain. 3- Guilliman resisted and felt guilty because his arrival could have saved his father, not necessarily because he did anything wrong. 4- The Custodes are incapable of moral thought because they are not actually culpable. They lack free will, free thought, and so whatever their "feels" are, are irrelevant. 5- The 3 primarchs DID fight like mad to get to Terra once they had evidence of any kind. The powers aligned against them were vast. Dorn, Valdor, and the like might feel salty, but they weren't on the other end of the galaxy, the ruinstorm, the unending legions of daemons, etc. 6- Ultimately, Terra held. Horus was beaten by a stroke made possible by the Spear of Maccragge. Criticize the man in the arena all you want people, but he's the reason you're not speaking Colchesian.
I have no doubt in the intentions and the practicalities of the decision of "The Uncrowned Monarch" as RG was referred to by the Emperor in The Board is Set. All this sniping is from smaller minds who know sweet FA of the circumstances behind this course of action. Euten knew what RG was doing was right at that time. She would have been the first to tell him so if she thought it was not.
I think some problem's problem with Gig R.G.'s decision is coused simply by terminology. Should he had been more deceptive and say "nono, it's not a contingency for the worst situation, we're just consolidating what we have and wait", people wouldn't be so against what he did. And this idea "he didn't even try" is complete bs. If all three Primarcs and their legions try to push towards Terra, it would have been the worst decision: -they most probably would have lost mucj of their legions to the warp -they would have arrived in scattered pockets, like the Blood Angels eventually did, and bring little help -and they also would have lost Ultramar (and the most parts separeted by the ruin storm), which would only fuel chaos and the traitors. For me, the reasont the Angel, didn't tell his brothers on Terra about I.S. is because thy were f-ing cry babes and would have been quick to cry "treachery". The only crime Guilliman is guilty of is hes weakness in renouncing hope, but then again in his mind he couldn't allow himself the weakness of hope. I also think he was guilt tripped by his brothers and the custodians. And Guilliman with all his big brain, he also has a medium sized heart (two of them even), and the guilt and judgement of his brothers took a toll on him. Sorry, this was a little bit of a rant, and probably only half coherent.
The fact that he could convince two of his brothers to play the long game and remain patient in the midst of a massive crisis demonstrates the true mistake - not making him the Warmaster.
Malcador said, “It’s Guilliman. What do you think he’s doing? He’s building an empire.” The Emperor had no doubt of Guilliman’s loyalty.( nor the Lions)
Secundus means second. And secundus comes second to imperium in its official title of Imperium Secundus. The name would imply that the Imperium Secundus is meant to be second to or lesser than the imperium.
With regards to Sanginius being named specifically "Emperor," I believe it was more a case of trying to keep the "name" alive within Secundus. Humanity, and the Imperium as a whole by this point had become so accustomed to knowing that "The Emperor" was leading them, that having "The Lord Commander" or "The lord Regent" being the new figure head, would itself lead to further confusion, disention and spread of the heresy. Considering just how small of a percentage, of the population of secundus would have ever seen "The Emperor" and knew nothing of him beyond the name "Emperor" you could easily see that by giving that title to Sanguinius, would keep the majority of the population still believing that "The Emperor" still lived, and keep that hope alive within them.
Hindsight is always 20/20. Also, while we have the privilege of feeling what RG was feeling; I would make the argument we also have the foresight of knowing that Terra didn't fall. Do you really thing the Angel would be collaborating with RG if he knew Terra didn't fall? They didn't know how many turned traitor. For all they knew is they were the last 3 and they had to rebound. It wasn't UNTIL Malcador sent a message out (I mean he knew what RG would do) did they come. That's when they knew that Tera still stood. RG even opened a hole and held the line , risking death, to allow the Lion and the Angel to make it to Terra.
The heresy is still going on at that point and from what guillermen knew at the onset he’s one of the last primarch left the last will of the emperor, and at the time (though I’m not 100% certain of it) he would belive all but one traitor primarch were at there peak. Let’s not forget that The man was going to be fighting what amounts to half an empire. His empire building allowed fur a staging ground a point of unification for a counter strike. It would take an amount of time for forces not just space marines but a full guard army. There is also the point that if guillermen had left before Sanguineous had argued then he would be taking the place of the angel and I doubt guillermen primarch he may be but he would in no way be able to fight for as long as Sanguineous did and he would in no way be able to da man stand and perform as well as the angel did against Horus after non stop continuous fighting. The fact that guillermens forces would arrive well after the angel that pushed Horus into making mistakes and stopping the attrition warfare that had been doing rather well against the beleaguered defenders. Now I would have preferred if the lion had been in Sanguineous’s ship since the two of them combined would have allowed the emperor to survive. Basically from the information and the resources they had guillermens plan was the best you could do now we have information and knowledge he didn’t do it would be simple to find another way to go about things.
Jagatai and Dorn, even Russ still went and fought the Traitors/made their way to Terra, and their legions were all smaller than Bobby G's. What's Gullimans excuse?
@@trajanfidelis Dorn was at Terra since the beginning, the Khan lost at least half of his legion and what was left arrived really battered also needing to sacrifice the best psyker and friend they had in order to activate an artifact to do so, Russ almost died but was rescued by Corax
@@trajanfidelis they can still see the Astronomican while Guilliman can't. The same reason as to why the Lion and Sanguineous went to Ultramar first and not Terra. And Horus kept him far and out of the loop busy because he he knows a fully informed and prepared Ultramarines can crush them. Come on now you're not even trying.
"What a bunch of heretics you are." Love that statement. I agree RG, San, and the Lion needed to rally the Imperium (heart in the right place), but calling it Imperium Secundus and crowning a new Emporer? Those two things will be what history (and the 40k Imperium judges RG on). No one would judge Sanguineous and everyone would Expect the Lion to have secrets, so thet leaves judgements for RG only.
Why would no one judge Sanguineous? And why would everyone expect Lion El'Johnson to have secrets? In universe I mean? The average 'in the know' character in the current setting of 40k knows less about what happened during the Heresy, and way less about the particulars of the Primarchs' behaviors, then we as god's-eye-view readers of the all the lore. I mean maybe declaring Imperium Secundus will be judged harshly ten thousand years later in 40k, but why would that judgment fall only on Guilliman? The other two primarchs were publicly and prominently involved, why do you think they get a pass?
@@breakerofrocks Sanguinius sacrificed himself for the emperor and is pretty much imperiums jesus, el johnson wouldn't give a damn as loyalty is it's own reward and hes sleeping but everyone thinks he died fighting traitors also the secondus was set up in ultramar and the idea came from guilliman himself , remember the majority of the imperium's citizens are not so smart and guilliman is the only one around to take the blame.
@@licensed_beheader yes, but some of those points actually work against the Guilliman being singled out for judgment. The Lion is sleeping but everyone thinks he died fighting the traitors... well, until a relatively very recent time, everyone thought Guilliman died fighting the traitors, having given his life for the Imperium, so why honor this or that primarch's sacrifice more than another's? Sanguinius is the Imperium's Jesus... it's interesting that you'd use Jesus as a comparison, because the two pertinent and identifying traits of Jesus in his mission are 1. That he dies and is risen - which is to say, he is resurrected, and 2. that he redeems mankind. Sanguinius died, sure, but when did he rise again? Oh, he hasn't. Well, no fear, because even if he had, it is not Sanguinius who has redeemed the Imperium. It was Roboute Guilliman who set down the core of the Lex Imperialis and the wrote the Codex Astartes after the Heresy, and it is Roboute Guilliman who came back from the dead and has undertaken the Indomitus Crusade to reunite the Imperium in what is maybe its darkest day - in other words, who has redeemed mankind. As far as Imperium Secundus being composed chiefly of the realm of Ultramar, and being Guilliman's idea, well I can't stress this enough, but *Sanguinius was actually the crowned emperor of Imperium Secundus, the most public face of the thing' and why would that not matter more to the average, dour, mostly dim Imperial citizen who only sees or cares for the surface appearance of things?
I am pretty sure people at least the high ranking ones ecclesiarchy etc and astaa rtes knew he was only in a coma not dead , hence all the pilgrims that would come pray for his return. Also when I say jesus I dont mean the death and return but I mean the reverence and piety and holiness associated with him , also both the lion and sanguinius had to be convinced by guilliman not to attempt to go to terra but to stay and be leaders of the secondus, guilliman masterminded the whole thing and it happened in his domain since hes the only one not" dead " fighting traitors hes probably the only one to take most if not all of the blame . Like we saw with the heresy chaos can twist the perception of information of people . When Rottigus led Fabian to the library he told him to read the book about imperium secondus as it would reveal guilliman's heresy and hypocrisy ( you and I know guilliman isnt a heretic but with the information about secondus and the machinations of chaos and prevalent zealotry guilliman will face problems regarding his choice about secondus . Sanguinius and el Johnson aren't a threat to chaos anymore so the dark gods probably wont bother trying to defame or destroy them) You also have to factor in the hate guilliman has garnered from some political leaders who will jump on this information, sanguinius and el Johnson aren't a threat to the power of this leaders and the purge of the high lords didn't really get rid of all of guilliman's opposition . Imagine how the following info will be processed by the fanatical ecclesiarchy, guilliman was brought back not just by the aid of sorcery but by XENOS sorcery , he has a xenos adviser in his retinue, he founded his imperium when the emperor's imperium was burning and withheld much needed support to terra, he also consulted a daemon host of tzeentch and Eldrad the xeno scum , Between himself and his two brothers he has indulged the most amount of "heresy".
@@breakerofrocks because everyone loves Sanguineous. He is the brother that can't do wrong. Everyone loves him and overlooks any flaws...wait he doesn't have a flaw. Oh and did I say everyone loves him...crouds swoon as he walks by. And in lore Russ talks about the Lion's secrets and holding strategies close to his chest...not sharing his insights. Loyalty is NEVER questioned with the Lion... just approach.
This feel like a case of hindsight is 20/20. You can always look back at something and say what should have been done, but in the moment, in the here and now you don't know what you don't know, you half to work with what you do know and hope it's for the best. That is just how life is.
Right decision. Only viable decision given the information that they had available to them. It should also be remembered that two other primarchs also ruled in Imperium Secundus - including the Angel and the Lion. They are loyal, ALL of them.
A lot of people forget this. Lion was loyal to three of his brothers just like his father and held them to high esteem and even called them dear friends. Sanguinius, Russ, and Guilliman. He especially held Russ and Guilliman to his high regards, even Russ was the Yin to his yang. Both so much alike and yet to different.
There’s no room to argue against what Guilliman did. Given the context of the situation it was very much the best choice of action. It also set other positive things in motion that positively affected the outcome of the Siege of Terra and the Horus Heresy.
it's like you said. you can expect the Primarchs to follow their natures, as per the way they were designed. this is presumably why Guilliman was cut off in the first place, knowing how he would likely proceed.
…. How many times is this gonna get brought up? Guilliman was 100% justified in creating Imperium Secundus. It was incredibly risky politically but he is literally the Political Primarch
Was he though? Do you feel guilt after doing a 100% justified action? No you don't so why did both Guilliman and Sanguineous feel guilt after Reaching Terra? Because they spent time dawdling while the Imperial fists and White Scars were fighting the Traitors.
This always seemed weird to me that the lore tries to make a big deal out of this. It's literally what he was made to do, and should have done in the situation to continue rule and order there.
I think it was good in that the you don't keep all of your eggs in one basket. Yes, if they all went to fight the traitors on Terra they probably would have won, but at what cost? Could have all the legions have been shattered in the heresy? Then how would they have maintained the Imperium? Though I think now may be the time to pull it all back together. That is the Imperium's greatest weakness now. Lack of unity. My two cents anyway...
Nop, the Lion understand and didnt make a fuss about it becouse he was grateful to Curze, so he wanted to spare him, as his visions mean the Emperor.still lives, and Terra is standing still.
I love Malcador, but I'm not sure he wants to play that game... Oh. Dark secret you say... That must be hidden from others... Because they wouldn't understand.
Just think of secundus as the second heart of the imperium. The astartes and primarchs and such all have two hearts. Its a smart move to keep the body alive when one is critically wounded.
It's also what he DOES he builds an empire, every other primarch took a planet and then basically chilled. He claimed an empire, we think they are dead, BUILD AN EMPIRE, emperor is crippled SEIZE THE EMPIRE. I think he was long term intended to take over from malcador...
Could roboute clear the ruinstorm and get through on his own? If he can than it's a bad idea to create the secundus if he cannot get through the warp storms than it was a good idea. Was roboute able to leave until he got the help of sang and lionel? Why didnt lionel also follow sang to the throne world?
To critique my brother, when you have all the answers from a 3rd person view is a weird thing to me. What would anyone have done in a situation like that? What they think is right, and he believed what he was doing was right. We are not perfect like some of my brothers believe themselves to be.
The issue here is focusing on results based analysis. Instead what we should focus on is the decision-making process. And it makes sense that if: A- Horus and half the Imperium is treasonous B- Terra had fallen C- their own allies has been slaughtered That would need to consolidate their power and the best way to do so would be to seem legitimate to as many undecided forces as possible. Also, the big blue boyscout does seem to have a bit of a "Batman" mentality where he tries to prepare for many different possible outcomes. So yeah... it makes sense from his standpoint and its within his character to come up with such a failsafe.
Everything needs a back up plan. In case everything had already gone to ashes, Guilliman founded Secundus. He would have had 5 if not six loyalist Primarchs, a home base, and the people of Ultrimar would have made for the best of the best of imperial citizens. The Emperor had a backup plan if he lost on Terra, that trinket that Vulcan made would blow the Sol System to Kingdom come, and all the Primarches who weren’t demons would have been slain. But the light of Ultrumar would still shine in the darkness.
I think Rho needs to read the comments because in every topic about RG people leave the same comments but for some reason Rho ignores it or doesn't really read them.
He was right to do it, because if he didn’t the idea of the imperium could have died. He was wrong because he focused solely on it and not on the ensuring that the rest of the Imperium was for sure gone.
Guilliman, while a creature of logic and reason, is at least Hopeful. And coldly pragmatic. He had very little intelligence on the Ruinstorm as Chaos was still a new thing the Primarchs were dealing with. The Warmaster and his forces severely outnumbered his forces, and building up a redoubt and operations base to engage in intelligence gathering and harvesting of resources, as well as keeping the Imperial Dream alive makes sense. I know people still hate the Ultras because of Wardian Derp from years ago, but let's face it: would you trust any of the other Primarchs to pull what he did and not screw it up badly? The Emperor thought what he did was sound. That should be the end of it
The problem it there was no way of knowing if terra was still standing had they pushed and had terra been taken they could easily go into a slaughter then that’s the end of the emporium
The Lion has only half his legion at Macragge. The rest is either with Corswain or on Caliban. If the success of the loyalists depended so heavily on the Ultramarines - despite losing over half their strength at Calth - shouldn’t the Blood Angels have run interference for THEM and not the other way round?
Honestly I don’t think the casualties taken during the shadow crusade were actually taken into account by the writers. The word bearers and ultramarines were crippled by the conflict both reduced to well below half peak fighting strength. The world eaters also took heavy casualties with 10s of thousands of marines and most of their fleet destroyed but all the legions continued on in the heresy like nothing happened. Apparently somehow replacing 10s of thousands of super soldiers who take decades to recruit in a war that lasted 7 years.
Love your content Rho, have to wonder though are you stoned while you make these videos? You seem to be taking in slow motion and often I find it better to speed them up slightly while watching them. 😅
You are wrong Rho, Guilliman couldn't decide what to do with two, nor with three full legions, he has no authority over them. He couldn't even suggest to this brothers to try and make a rush to Terra, simply because his brothers, getting to Ultramar, implicitly accepted that Terra could already been lost. The part of Kurze could easily be interpreted as: just when the brothers realized that there was a very good chance that the Emperor still was fighting, they ditched their Imperium 2.0 and rushed to their father's side. In a race against time, just as you just described the horus heresy, they used this time to prepare a good counterpunch, or in case the worst has already happened, to defend humanity. Imperium Secundus was kept as a Secret, not because it was wrong, nor a sin; but because it was not the time to discuss the matter, the priority was to save the Imperium, not to debate if imperium Secundus is a good name for a contingency plan.
My question is why was Sanguinius transported but not the other two primarchs? If the lore is still that there was a Techulca warp engine to go there instantly, how did they find out that the empire still stood and why was only Sanguinius sent?
The lion pony out the angels visions of the future haven’t changed roboute used his forced to hold an opening in enemy forces for the blood angels to go through I don’t remember why the lion didn’t make it
Yes he was right because his fathers' great work needed to continue uninterrupted or the Empire might have split thousands of times ruining humanity's chances to survive.
Rational thinking is Guilliman's forte. Rational thinking involves collecting facts, analysing them, and using data to arrive at the most logical solution that minimizes risks. Guilliman made the most logical decision given the known circumstances and with hindsight, we know that in that instance, his strength was his weakness. On a side note, here we see another insidious aspect of Chaos. The Ruinstorm caused Guilliman to rely on his primary attributes and this inadvertently led to the Emperor's demise.
It's important to remember that not only did guiliman fail to use pharos to reach terra, he used it to divert the other legions that were on their way to Terra to Macragge. It is this mistake, as Kairos Fateweaver points out to Lorgar in the first heretic, that cost the loyalists victory in the Horus Heresy. Both Malcador and Lion El Johnson suspect Guilliman of treason because of his personal ambition. Not only was Guillilan wrong for creating imperium secundus but he failed to ever arrive during the siege. When he does arrive in the aftermath, he throws his weight around and forces the loyal legions to break up into chapters, going so far as to attack the imperial fists. Guillimans mistakes in 30k are big...Treason big.
He made it based off the info he had as far as he was aware Terra had fallen or was close to falling best for it exist with the chance to rebuild than to try and save what was already lost also the emperor was going to die one way or another. Either Horace kills him and the chaos gods win or the Emperor gets mortally wounded and manages to kill Horace. It took two complete Legions and three more broken Legions to clear the storm long enough for one legion to make it through.
Think he felt shame for waiting so long and I think he believes founding secondus as writing off the emperor. He’s guilty. Was it the correct thing to do yes but was it right. In the minds of his brothers especially Rogal:no. Do believe having a second imperium beyond the rift would be the right move. Rome did the same after it started waining and it helped Rome survive in one form or another for almost 1200 years after.
I think it was correct, not as well executed as it could have been. If you thought the emperor was gone, sending three full legions to die on terra is not necessarily a tactically sound decision when you are looking at the continued survival of the empire in some form. A tough choice needed to be made. Continue the hope of the original dream with three powerful legions to fend off Horus when he comes, and he would come or go to what you thought was lost and could now be just ruins or a now entrenched enemy.
Guilliman was acting with what information he had in regards of making Imperium Secundus and creating it to consolidate his forces to stand against Horus and the rest of the traitors is a smart move especially due to the warp storms blocking the light of the astronomican and all message from Terra also being blocked. For all that Guilliman knew he was alone and Ultramar was the last stronghold of the old Imperium so he did the only thing he could do with what he knew consolidate his forces and prepare for the next war what he could gather in Ultramar. Though he was emotionally distressed about the Imperium 'falling' he atleast did the sensible thing in soldiering on and further made it clear it was in service of humanity to create Secundus by naming Sanguinius as the Emperor instead of himself. TLDR: Gulliman acted on what information he knew and drew a conclusion that Terra had fallen and so prepared for the war that was to come to Ultramar until Konrad spilled the beans about him being assassinated in future.
Sounds a bit like a Lodge statement! Honor all to your last breath but your Emporer first, chapter second, brethren third, otherwise you are at risk of falling prey to heresy!
@@toddolson4614 Of course brother, it applies to all sons of the Emperor! It's the indoctrination oath of the Ultramarines. Edited because the machine spirit ( predictive spell check) was acting up again.
I think this is how a plausible civil war could break out against the lord regent. Maybe we even see something like the Minotaurs Chapter Master vs Roboute
6:30 If corax hadn't left terra by the time of the siege of terra he could have raised a good ten or twenty thousand new ravenguard marines from the populations that fronted his liegion from the start of the great crusade instead of getting his geneseed tech destroyed by the alpha legion on deliverance.
Bobby G is too smart for humanity of 40k. In 30k it was presumptuous but acceptable, in 40k he has to contend with the worst poison of civilization: religious fervor.
I totally understand the notion of Gman not making an effort to make it or at least try to find a way to the throne world. I can clearly see why it wasn't a good idea to found a second imperium. The imperium at its dier moment needed Guilliman and his Ultramarines. They could have very easily turned the tied of the war but where was he? Playing politics on his homeworld on the assumption the imperium was lost. That would indeed rub a lot of people the wrong way. For sure one of those particular individuals would be Dorn himself. Now that would be a very heated interaction.
I think he was very quick to do this, maybe not create a second empire, but just say that he was focusing on making sure his territory was right before risking everything on a suicide trip not knowing if there was an empire to save or not.
The decision was the military correct one. When you are cut off from other forces, have no communication, supply lines or intelligence you hunker down and establish a strong hold and a structure of leadership and command. Not charge into the unknown and get all your men killed and lose your only strong hold.
much ado about nothing, he thought the Emperor was dead, he was simply trying to not lose what his father had created. As soon as he found out the Emperor was alive he immediately abandoned it.
I dunno. I don’t think Guilliman can do anything other than his nature. Likewise, don’t forget that Sanguinius did agree to be Emperor of Secundus at Guilliman’s request. Johnson was also ok with all of this. Likewise, I’m not sure the arrival of the Xlll would have made a difference in the fight between the EoM and Horus. The EoM had a personal battle with himself and held back against Lupercal until he, himself, was mortally wounded. If he had not done so, Horus would have lost almost immediately. The Ultramarines would have been a non factor in that regard. Had they arrived in time, it’s possible Horus would have fled, regrouped, and returned with a truly overwhelming force of a limitless demonic army that could not have been stopped by the entirety of the Loyalist forces. Lastly, to further the argument that it was Guilliman’s nature, he subsequently created the Imperium Nihilus, naming Dante as its leader. If at first you don’t succeed…
That coming from a space wolf fan is rich considering they left terra to try and assassinate horus and failed at that. If anything the space wolves actions were worse than the ultramarines as they didn't have a warp storm keeping them from traveling.
I think he was right for doing it, but I think he went about it the wrong way. The three of them should have simply created a council that would vote on things, thus no primarch could be accused of believing themselves the equal to the emperor(their father) And I think a different name would make it less heretical. Like Imperium Bastion or something, instead of secundus
This being set up as a plot point in 41k is so strange. The HH is a time of legend and rumour anyway - but quite apart from how anyone would find out, why would they believe it? And why would they care? Guilliman clearly isn't a traitor or usurper.
His alternative was untenable. He couldn't simply cover his eyes, assume things were fine and it'd work itself out. It wasn't even a betrayal but an imitation, the highest way he could honor what he thought was his father's legacy.
It was a mistake but a unfortunate mistake one born out of shock and desperation rather then any malicious intent or selfishness. He didn't want to have to do it but if he hadn't in his eyes the imperium would have fallen. It was unavoidable for it was not a mistake made by calculation instead it was one made due to his nature.
He was right an wrong. He didn't know so S.C was plan B if Tera was lost to the traitor legions. He was wrong in the way because he didn't do good enough to let everyone know that the moment Tera was founded they would return to the emperor. The Dark Angels really should have been there on Tera. With the White Scars, Imp Fists and Angels. I could imagine the Lion having words about Angron storming through the palace as a demonic prince.
Well, he was obviously wrong and essentially admitted as much. There was a scene where the Lion confronts both of his brothers and makes the case to them as to why Terra is still out there. That doesn't mean he had perfect knowledge until then, as the Lion inferred his conclusion based on the Night Haunter's visions.
I think his intentions were altruistic and based on the information he had. Sanguinius reluctantly saw it as the best case scenario that was open to them and hey, he managed to sell the idea to Lion as well and that guy was ready to drop the hammer on Rob had he found him even remotely out of line. Further, once Lion came back with the reveal that Terra likely still stood, all 3 put a plan together and immediately set out to try and find a way through the Ruinstorm to Terra, rather than stay and consolidate. Furthermore, the Emperor didn't seem upset when Malcador has his chat with him. I'll be interested to see if Sanguinius says anything to his father about it in the remaining HH books before we lose him.
They hauled so much ass the Traitors were pretty much shitting themselves. Russ was on a thunderous war path and raising hell just to get there.
See people criticise Guilliman for Imperium Secundus, but he didnt make himself Emperor, he's doing what his father created him to do. His father didn't seem bothered by what he did. Furthermore, his father keeps saving his life like after he's injected with the Godblight. For me Guilliman is one of the rare 'good' people in 40k he's just trying to do the best he can even the custodes can see he doesn't want power.
If I remember right, Guilliman didn't know if the Imperium was still standing. He didn't know if his father was alive. Guilliman is an empire builder. For all intents and purposes, Ultramar was and is the greatest stronghold, and empire within an empire. If anything, the Empire of Humanity lucked out that it was Horus and not Guilliman that turned.
@@murdock94 Guilliman turning to chaos would've been... absolutely devastating. And extremely awkward if he and Lorgar ever met while being on the same side.
Did the Big E also state that Sanguinius would be his best successor out of all the Primarchs?
I think Guilliman was designed to be a all shit last resort backup for humanity. If the imperium was to fall but Guilliman lived then he would make a last bastion of humanity. Due to Guillimans pragmatism too he probably aim to make that bastion like humanity was during the dark age of technology.
@@andrewrobb3258 He was, He made the Ultarmar system the greatest in the Imperium. Over 500 Worlds that developed into an Empire. Guilliman is a world class statesman and general.
Guilliman is an intensely pragmatic Primarch. Secundus made sense with the information he had. I never looked at what he did as any sort of betrayal of his father. He did what he was created to do.
Once new facts emerged-he changed his actions and focused on getting to Terra as quickly as he could. Nothing wrong with what he did at all.
Papa Smurf: Dante, I need you to establish a strong hold on the other side of the great rift.
Dante: Like some sort of secundus Imperium?
Papa Smurf: .......more like nihalus.....yeah nihalus.
*Guilliman stats sweating profusely* "We don't use that word."
Guillermen: don’t worry Dante you have to deal with this until I wake up the lion and convince my eldar GF to bring back your dad then it’s their problem.
Lmao
Yup...he was right. And he wasn't alone in that decision, as we all know. Hell he wasn't even going to claim the "Big E." for himself.
I Think with Ultramar expanding it's boarders, Dante in control of the other side of the rift and the fact we know G-Man likes backup plans, I think I know what he is up to. I think he is dividing the responsibilities of running the massive Imperiaum of man into parts under a greater umbrella. With this if a large failure happens like the heresy then only part of the Imperium is in trouble while others can still operate even if help in comms are cut off. This falls in line with how G-man works, he divided the Marines into chapters so they can watch each other, he might be doing this on a galactic scale do to the rampant corruption in the current system. This is all just a guess though, but it would fit his character type.
Edit: GW could make Fenris "Warden of the North" for ultimate cringe, just popped in my head.
Very interesting point that falls under gmans mo
basically, do what the Roman did after crisis of the 3rd century, dividing the empire into 4 regions of responsibility
Fenris+ was supposed to be wardens of the eye of terror
Gulliman was among the very few among 20 that had any business of leading anyone
100% agree
Guilliman made the right call based on the incorrect, but very plausible assumption, that Terra had fallen. Even Lion, who initially went to Ultramar to stop him, backed Secundus when he heard the reasoning.
Secundus wasnt best sollution when we look on whole Heresy, but from perspective of Guilliman, giving scraps of informations he had, like death of his brothers, it was most logical decission. And becasue he know now, that the safest way is not always the best he doesnt want to abonddon Imperium Nilus, despite many considering it lost case
Why did lionel johnson and sanguinious agree with imperium secundus? Because it is an idea born of loyalty not treason. Loyalty to an idea, a dream. A dream once called imperium of man
In the place that came closest to its ideals. Ultramar.
In the Siege of Terra Series, Rogal Dorn has an evacuation plan for the Emperor incase the Battle to defend the Golden Throne failed. The question is where would Rogal Dorn bring the Emperor and all the surviving Solar forces escaping the War Master’s forces go to after fighting their way out of the Terran Solar System?
Can we imagine Guilliman surprising the Emperor and Malcador including Rogal, Volkan, Kahn, that he has already created a Fall-Back-Throne of Terra at Ultramar waiting for them to re-establish a governing body to manage what remains of the Imperium and continue the fight against Horus and take back everything they have lost, from Ultramar.
“All is not lost” I imagine Guilliman saying to the Emperor, Malcador, and his brothers.
"Secundus" does not always mean separate. It can also mean auxiliary, inside of, nested, or branching out or stemming from.
At the end of the day, one cannot view this as vassal states not responding to a banner call. The entire Imperium was on war footing, and each facet has to be considered as if the various segmentum were elements made up of units deployed on a battlefield.
"Guilliman worked with what he KNEW and he didn't KNOW if Terra still stood, so that means he should have waited to find out."
No, the exact opposite is, from a logistic and strategic standpoint, the best course of action. It is better to do something unnecessary now - and later find out it was unneeded, than to pause and through inaction lose your only chance of acting. Given the "unknown" of the Imperium crumbling, the "unknown" of impossible navigation through the pitch black turbulent seas, the "unknown" of who had turned and who had died; and the "known" 500 planets, the "known" troop numbers, the "known" fleet compositions and the "known" loyal legions, it would be better to reinforce your held position and try to establish a muster point and staging area to try and organise an offensive. The Empire of Ultramar was already everything the Imperium could ever hope to be and achieve before the Emperor found them. Such a place would be the best, and in this case only, place that would serve such a purpose.
In all honesty, worrying about whether the President or Prime Minister of your nation is alive and giving orders means nothing when you're across an ocean, surrounded on all sides, with no support, communications or supply lines, and being bombed by elements that all supplied intel told you were allies. You would really only "know" that you were being attacked, that you weren't getting out, and that you weren't being rescued. Your squad, company or battalion, the position you were holding and your tangible, physical resources would be the only thing that you would "know." In that position, NO company commander would consider something like "Holding cover here isn't the right play - the Field Marshall may or may not be alive somewhere over there, so we should abandon this position to get on a boat and sail blindly into a hostile ocean with no communication or navigation equipment, while being beset on all side by an unknown number of hostile forces."
You have to focus on the first day, then the first week, then establishing a foundation to start gathering what intel and opening communications you can. Once you have that, you might be in a position to worry about what's going on around the other side of the world.
Here is a very simple reason Imperium Secundus was a good idea: The Administratum is the reason for 90% of the Imperium's woes. Tithing squeezes planets beyond capacity and getting the grade (IIRC that's what it was called) adjusted is next to impossible and getting help requests to not die somewhere on a desk is even worse. Guilliman was designed, above all else, as a bureaucrat. If we accept that the Primarchs were created using Warp shenanigans he might in fact be a better bureaucrat than the Emperor, Malcador and the Custodes combined, meaning he has a REALLY good shot at making the pencil pushing actually lead somewhere. When you aid and tax people consistently and get material where it needs to be on time a whole lot of other problems suddenly start looking a lot less awful.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication dude why bother with beurocracy when you could mind blast all who oppose you . Seriously though what makes you think because guilliman is made through warp shenanigans hes a better beurocrat than the emperor and malcador , they too came to being through warp shenanigans plus bureaucracy involves a lot of convincing , logistics and planning , the emperor being a god tier telepath could do and does it better than guilliman, he was a master schemer second maybe to tzeentch himself as evidenced in two metaphysical blades where valdor saw the emperor make a seemingly random act that would create a dominoe effect destroying his powerful political opponent three centuries later .
Good thing that he didnt fall to Chaos, or Imperium would be doomed. Imagine 9 legions of Astrates and demons under his rule. Organized Chaos Undivided
@@licensed_beheader
Because he's a custom job designed precisely for that role. Malcador & Big E are all-rounders, whereas Guilliman was from the ground designed to make pencil pushers work better at pushing pencils.
A master schemer wins. Doesn't mean he's going to be good at creating a bureaucracy that doesn't lose track of planets that just so happen to not be industrial powerhouses.
@@macshadow1150 YEPPP.
Horus had the sway but a Chaos Guiliman would for example recruit literally millions of cultists to be trained hands-on by the Word Bearers and turned Iterators and send them in alongside Alpha Legionaires. Then just swoop in once everything has sufficiently degraded with whoever is currently best suited for the job.
If Guilliman didn’t create the SECUNDUS then the event wouldn’t have gathered the 2 loyalist legions to Ultramar, this 2 Legions were traveling blind without the Light-of-the-Astronomicon, the Navagators cannot just just direct the entire Fleet of 3 Legions to the direction of Terra without using the Warp, it would take them Centuries to get to Terra without Warp travel.
Also as I remember from the Ruinstorm novel, the 3 brothers agree after planet Davin that Sanguineous travel to Terra and Guilliman and the Lion attack the Traitors supply lines and slow down the War Master’s forces giving Rogal Dorn more time to build more fortifications to defend Terra from the upcoming war.
I mean there was enough time bought to even have a mother of all Titan Battles at another solar system depleting the Titan Legions of Mars and Terra before the Siege of Terra
Which book has that titan battle?
@@monkeyX42792X Titandeath covers the battle if Beta gamon
The Lion didn't need the astronomicon.. He had Tuchulcha
My arguements for voting yes were for once the Emperors reaction and approval, but also Robute running damage control being the reasonable reaction. Lets not forget: Imperium Secundus did allow the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Lost Legions to regroup. When assuming the throneworld had already fallen it really wouldn't be the reasonable decision to rush back. Not saying I don't understand the counter arguements, but secureing a baseand fail safe is definetly the most important start.
And then the real reason is me being a loyal follower of Sanguinius and I'm having a lot of respect for the Lion. Those two definetly validate a lot of the choice.
How Guilliman never looked down on most of his brothers with open disdain I'll never know, the fact he doesn't is a reflection on his character. He'd built a massive almost utopian empire (comparatively) before E money even turned up. Meanwhile people like Konrad are off playing batman.
Imperium Secundus was already made before the Emperor found Guilliman, he had an empire and was allowed to keep his empire within the Imperium of Man.
Guilliman is the only Primarch that the Emperor trusted to protect the Imperium of Man.
Russ as well
"How can you say he is doing the wrong thing? When you created him to do exactly that." - 5:44
Magnus would like a word with you.
Imperium Secundus is still a good idea. The first one isn't working out...
I feel like G man is the only one to get yelled at cuz the others frankly would of punched the people out for even trying to get dirt on their names.
He is the nicest and actually willing to hear people out so they fling like mad without knowing the reasons why he did what he did.. atleast he didnt make super ork tyranids.
Guilliman did nothing wrong, unlike Magnus
Well, in case of Magnus you can say that road to hell is often born from good intensions
If it was like some kid who came up with the 20 Primarchs and which is going to ultra bollocks it up, I think Jathai.. the Khan or Pervry would of been better deattached from all this lore.
Lore is lovely but it constricts ideas abit too much for something that may a Super Gutpunch vs a Gut Punch.
@@macshadow1150 that sums up Magnus very well, thats why so may many pitty him
It's easy to say "What ifs" in Guilliman and the other Imperium Forces at the time because we know the events as a viewer.
Imperium Secondus was a contingency plan. It was enacted to be a successor to THE Imperium, not as its rival. As best anyone knew, Terra was gone. Guiliman voted to make his brother Emperor instead of himself, and was even handing over his Empire of 500 Worlds to be the base home of IS. What else was he to do? Just let the galaxy burn let humanity fail?
How about head to Terra to see if his Father and Emperor was alive? You know, like Jagatai Khan and Leman Russ did.
@@trajanfidelis yeah, how about you running into a burning building without protected gear to see if there is anyone still inside knowing it may as well kill you before you can do anything
@@trajanfidelis and Khan did wait and see, even when Rogal message reached him, he waited.
@@trajanfidelis they could see the astronomicon, the ruinstorm cut the lion, Sanguinus and Bobby G from it hence it wasn't safe to do so
And potentially walk the last three known loyalists to them into a trap killing the dream
Excellent video! We must remember that Alexis Pollux upon arriving in Macragge warns Guilliman that Dorn was summoning everyone to return to Holy Terra, so the cradle of humanity still stands. If we add that to the fact that Guilliman considers Dorn incorruptible, it's only to be expected that Roboute's analytical mind would at least investigate by sending forces to Terra.
Rebuttal to criticism against Imperium Secundus founding:
1- There were very strong indications that Terra had fallen, and the issue was that the existence of Terra could not have any proof. They had no way of getting any proof of Terra's survival. That obviates ALL assumption of Terra's existence in the decision making process.
If they just cast their forces out into the galactic ruinstorm, those would be lost.
Keep in mind, the Tchulka engine was not known to Guilliman. He did not know of it as an option. Sanguinius was also not in attendance until later. Sanguinius also was a motivation to go to Terra because of his visions.
In fact, the evidence to EVER go to Terra was pretty thin. Thankfully, the Lion made the right call.
2- Only half of the Dark Angels legion was present. The other half was under the command of Corswain.
3- Guilliman resisted and felt guilty because his arrival could have saved his father, not necessarily because he did anything wrong.
4- The Custodes are incapable of moral thought because they are not actually culpable. They lack free will, free thought, and so whatever their "feels" are, are irrelevant.
5- The 3 primarchs DID fight like mad to get to Terra once they had evidence of any kind. The powers aligned against them were vast. Dorn, Valdor, and the like might feel salty, but they weren't on the other end of the galaxy, the ruinstorm, the unending legions of daemons, etc.
6- Ultimately, Terra held. Horus was beaten by a stroke made possible by the Spear of Maccragge. Criticize the man in the arena all you want people, but he's the reason you're not speaking Colchesian.
I have no doubt in the intentions and the practicalities of the decision of "The Uncrowned Monarch" as RG was referred to by the Emperor in The Board is Set. All this sniping is from smaller minds who know sweet FA of the circumstances behind this course of action.
Euten knew what RG was doing was right at that time. She would have been the first to tell him so if she thought it was not.
I think some problem's problem with Gig R.G.'s decision is coused simply by terminology. Should he had been more deceptive and say "nono, it's not a contingency for the worst situation, we're just consolidating what we have and wait", people wouldn't be so against what he did.
And this idea "he didn't even try" is complete bs. If all three Primarcs and their legions try to push towards Terra, it would have been the worst decision:
-they most probably would have lost mucj of their legions to the warp
-they would have arrived in scattered pockets, like the Blood Angels eventually did, and bring little help
-and they also would have lost Ultramar (and the most parts separeted by the ruin storm), which would only fuel chaos and the traitors.
For me, the reasont the Angel, didn't tell his brothers on Terra about I.S. is because thy were f-ing cry babes and would have been quick to cry "treachery".
The only crime Guilliman is guilty of is hes weakness in renouncing hope, but then again in his mind he couldn't allow himself the weakness of hope. I also think he was guilt tripped by his brothers and the custodians. And Guilliman with all his big brain, he also has a medium sized heart (two of them even), and the guilt and judgement of his brothers took a toll on him.
Sorry, this was a little bit of a rant, and probably only half coherent.
100% agree, plus even if terra has fallen, rushing in 3v9 legions would not have been smart in any way or form.
The fact that he could convince two of his brothers to play the long game and remain patient in the midst of a massive crisis demonstrates the true mistake - not making him the Warmaster.
He was right. I don’t think Sanguinius would’ve taken the title if it honestly wasn’t with the right intentions.
Rho, are you sure that MALCADOR said that Guilliman is doing what he was made to do? Wasn't that EMPEROR who said it?
Malcador said, “It’s Guilliman. What do you think he’s doing? He’s building an empire.”
The Emperor had no doubt of Guilliman’s loyalty.( nor the Lions)
Secundus means second. And secundus comes second to imperium in its official title of Imperium Secundus. The name would imply that the Imperium Secundus is meant to be second to or lesser than the imperium.
With regards to Sanginius being named specifically "Emperor," I believe it was more a case of trying to keep the "name" alive within Secundus. Humanity, and the Imperium as a whole by this point had become so accustomed to knowing that "The Emperor" was leading them, that having "The Lord Commander" or "The lord Regent" being the new figure head, would itself lead to further confusion, disention and spread of the heresy.
Considering just how small of a percentage, of the population of secundus would have ever seen "The Emperor" and knew nothing of him beyond the name "Emperor" you could easily see that by giving that title to Sanguinius, would keep the majority of the population still believing that "The Emperor" still lived, and keep that hope alive within them.
Hindsight is always 20/20. Also, while we have the privilege of feeling what RG was feeling; I would make the argument we also have the foresight of knowing that Terra didn't fall. Do you really thing the Angel would be collaborating with RG if he knew Terra didn't fall? They didn't know how many turned traitor. For all they knew is they were the last 3 and they had to rebound. It wasn't UNTIL Malcador sent a message out (I mean he knew what RG would do) did they come. That's when they knew that Tera still stood. RG even opened a hole and held the line , risking death, to allow the Lion and the Angel to make it to Terra.
Can we get a poll whether Dante should undergo the Primaris conversion?
Mephiston says NO.
@@WanderingCelts I know, but I think Dante deserves the W here and should continue serving the Blood Angels for another 1K years if possible
@@TheDansonT I agree. However he is exhausted and needs time to recover.
nice try, games workshop.
……….. well
The heresy is still going on at that point and from what guillermen knew at the onset he’s one of the last primarch left the last will of the emperor, and at the time (though I’m not 100% certain of it) he would belive all but one traitor primarch were at there peak. Let’s not forget that The man was going to be fighting what amounts to half an empire. His empire building allowed fur a staging ground a point of unification for a counter strike. It would take an amount of time for forces not just space marines but a full guard army. There is also the point that if guillermen had left before Sanguineous had argued then he would be taking the place of the angel and I doubt guillermen primarch he may be but he would in no way be able to fight for as long as Sanguineous did and he would in no way be able to da man stand and perform as well as the angel did against Horus after non stop continuous fighting. The fact that guillermens forces would arrive well after the angel that pushed Horus into making mistakes and stopping the attrition warfare that had been doing rather well against the beleaguered defenders. Now I would have preferred if the lion had been in Sanguineous’s ship since the two of them combined would have allowed the emperor to survive. Basically from the information and the resources they had guillermens plan was the best you could do now we have information and knowledge he didn’t do it would be simple to find another way to go about things.
Jagatai and Dorn, even Russ still went and fought the Traitors/made their way to Terra, and their legions were all smaller than Bobby G's. What's Gullimans excuse?
@@trajanfidelis Dorn was at Terra since the beginning, the Khan lost at least half of his legion and what was left arrived really battered also needing to sacrifice the best psyker and friend they had in order to activate an artifact to do so, Russ almost died but was rescued by Corax
@@trajanfidelis they can still see the Astronomican while Guilliman can't. The same reason as to why the Lion and Sanguineous went to Ultramar first and not Terra. And Horus kept him far and out of the loop busy because he he knows a fully informed and prepared Ultramarines can crush them. Come on now you're not even trying.
"What a bunch of heretics you are." Love that statement. I agree RG, San, and the Lion needed to rally the Imperium (heart in the right place), but calling it Imperium Secundus and crowning a new Emporer? Those two things will be what history (and the 40k Imperium judges RG on). No one would judge Sanguineous and everyone would Expect the Lion to have secrets, so thet leaves judgements for RG only.
Why would no one judge Sanguineous? And why would everyone expect Lion El'Johnson to have secrets? In universe I mean?
The average 'in the know' character in the current setting of 40k knows less about what happened during the Heresy, and way less about the particulars of the Primarchs' behaviors, then we as god's-eye-view readers of the all the lore.
I mean maybe declaring Imperium Secundus will be judged harshly ten thousand years later in 40k, but why would that judgment fall only on Guilliman? The other two primarchs were publicly and prominently involved, why do you think they get a pass?
@@breakerofrocks Sanguinius sacrificed himself for the emperor and is pretty much imperiums jesus, el johnson wouldn't give a damn as loyalty is it's own reward and hes sleeping but everyone thinks he died fighting traitors also the secondus was set up in ultramar and the idea came from guilliman himself , remember the majority of the imperium's citizens are not so smart and guilliman is the only one around to take the blame.
@@licensed_beheader yes, but some of those points actually work against the Guilliman being singled out for judgment.
The Lion is sleeping but everyone thinks he died fighting the traitors... well, until a relatively very recent time, everyone thought Guilliman died fighting the traitors, having given his life for the Imperium, so why honor this or that primarch's sacrifice more than another's?
Sanguinius is the Imperium's Jesus... it's interesting that you'd use Jesus as a comparison, because the two pertinent and identifying traits of Jesus in his mission are 1. That he dies and is risen - which is to say, he is resurrected, and 2. that he redeems mankind. Sanguinius died, sure, but when did he rise again? Oh, he hasn't. Well, no fear, because even if he had, it is not Sanguinius who has redeemed the Imperium. It was Roboute Guilliman who set down the core of the Lex Imperialis and the wrote the Codex Astartes after the Heresy, and it is Roboute Guilliman who came back from the dead and has undertaken the Indomitus Crusade to reunite the Imperium in what is maybe its darkest day - in other words, who has redeemed mankind.
As far as Imperium Secundus being composed chiefly of the realm of Ultramar, and being Guilliman's idea, well I can't stress this enough, but *Sanguinius was actually the crowned emperor of Imperium Secundus, the most public face of the thing' and why would that not matter more to the average, dour, mostly dim Imperial citizen who only sees or cares for the surface appearance of things?
I am pretty sure people at least the high ranking ones ecclesiarchy etc and astaa
rtes knew he was only in a coma not dead , hence all the pilgrims that would come pray for his return. Also when I say jesus I dont mean the death and return but I mean the reverence and piety and holiness associated with him , also both the lion and sanguinius had to be convinced by guilliman not to attempt to go to terra but to stay and be leaders of the secondus, guilliman masterminded the whole thing and it happened in his domain since hes the only one not" dead " fighting traitors hes probably the only one to take most if not all of the blame . Like we saw with the heresy chaos can twist the perception of information of people . When Rottigus led Fabian to the library he told him to read the book about imperium secondus as it would reveal guilliman's heresy and hypocrisy ( you and I know guilliman isnt a heretic but with the information about secondus and the machinations of chaos and prevalent zealotry guilliman will face problems regarding his choice about secondus . Sanguinius and el Johnson aren't a threat to chaos anymore so the dark gods probably wont bother trying to defame or destroy them) You also have to factor in the hate guilliman has garnered from some political leaders who will jump on this information, sanguinius and el Johnson aren't a threat to the power of this leaders and the purge of the high lords didn't really get rid of all of guilliman's opposition . Imagine how the following info will be processed by the fanatical ecclesiarchy, guilliman was brought back not just by the aid of sorcery but by XENOS sorcery , he has a xenos adviser in his retinue, he founded his imperium when the emperor's imperium was burning and withheld much needed support to terra, he also consulted a daemon host of tzeentch and Eldrad the xeno scum , Between himself and his two brothers he has indulged the most amount of "heresy".
@@breakerofrocks because everyone loves Sanguineous. He is the brother that can't do wrong. Everyone loves him and overlooks any flaws...wait he doesn't have a flaw. Oh and did I say everyone loves him...crouds swoon as he walks by. And in lore Russ talks about the Lion's secrets and holding strategies close to his chest...not sharing his insights. Loyalty is NEVER questioned with the Lion... just approach.
Of course he was right, like even the emperor said he was doing what he was made to do, which is building a empire.
This feel like a case of hindsight is 20/20. You can always look back at something and say what should have been done, but in the moment, in the here and now you don't know what you don't know, you half to work with what you do know and hope it's for the best. That is just how life is.
Right decision. Only viable decision given the information that they had available to them. It should also be remembered that two other primarchs also ruled in Imperium Secundus - including the Angel and the Lion. They are loyal, ALL of them.
A lot of people forget this. Lion was loyal to three of his brothers just like his father and held them to high esteem and even called them dear friends. Sanguinius, Russ, and Guilliman. He especially held Russ and Guilliman to his high regards, even Russ was the Yin to his yang. Both so much alike and yet to different.
When the lion surprised roboute by hugging him when he arrived was hilarious
There’s no room to argue against what Guilliman did. Given the context of the situation it was very much the best choice of action. It also set other positive things in motion that positively affected the outcome of the Siege of Terra and the Horus Heresy.
He was right.
it's like you said. you can expect the Primarchs to follow their natures, as per the way they were designed. this is presumably why Guilliman was cut off in the first place, knowing how he would likely proceed.
…. How many times is this gonna get brought up? Guilliman was 100% justified in creating Imperium Secundus. It was incredibly risky politically but he is literally the Political Primarch
Was he though? Do you feel guilt after doing a 100% justified action? No you don't so why did both Guilliman and Sanguineous feel guilt after Reaching Terra? Because they spent time dawdling while the Imperial fists and White Scars were fighting the Traitors.
Dawdling? Piss off.
@@trajanfidelis there was a giant ruin storm preventing them from traveling to Terra. The first opportunity they had they took it.
This always seemed weird to me that the lore tries to make a big deal out of this. It's literally what he was made to do, and should have done in the situation to continue rule and order there.
I think it was good in that the you don't keep all of your eggs in one basket. Yes, if they all went to fight the traitors on Terra they probably would have won, but at what cost? Could have all the legions have been shattered in the heresy? Then how would they have maintained the Imperium? Though I think now may be the time to pull it all back together. That is the Imperium's greatest weakness now. Lack of unity. My two cents anyway...
The Lion might show up to scorn Guilliman publicly to get back at him for breaking his sword.
Nop, the Lion understand and didnt make a fuss about it becouse he was grateful to Curze, so he wanted to spare him, as his visions mean the Emperor.still lives, and Terra is standing still.
They parted on good terms
@@logandelaharpe6362 yea but I get the feeling that all the primarchs hold onto grudges like a bad ex.
A Interaction for the Interaction God, a Comment for the Comment Throne, for the Almighty Algorithm
I love Malcador, but I'm not sure he wants to play that game... Oh. Dark secret you say... That must be hidden from others... Because they wouldn't understand.
Just think of secundus as the second heart of the imperium. The astartes and primarchs and such all have two hearts. Its a smart move to keep the body alive when one is critically wounded.
I think Roboute and Magnus have a lot in common. Both doing what they felt was right, but still wrong in some eyes(no pun intended)
It's also what he DOES he builds an empire, every other primarch took a planet and then basically chilled. He claimed an empire, we think they are dead, BUILD AN EMPIRE, emperor is crippled SEIZE THE EMPIRE. I think he was long term intended to take over from malcador...
The memes are to some degree accurate, he is the demigod of tax enforcement
Imagine if this imperium secundus was all that was left, how would that impact the story? Would that fun fan theory of 50k be the new 40k?
Could roboute clear the ruinstorm and get through on his own? If he can than it's a bad idea to create the secundus if he cannot get through the warp storms than it was a good idea. Was roboute able to leave until he got the help of sang and lionel? Why didnt lionel also follow sang to the throne world?
Gillerman made the best decisions with the information he had
To critique my brother, when you have all the answers from a 3rd person view is a weird thing to me. What would anyone have done in a situation like that? What they think is right, and he believed what he was doing was right. We are not perfect like some of my brothers believe themselves to be.
Guilliman was not a lone in this decision, based on the information they had, the primarch(S) made the best decision possible
The issue here is focusing on results based analysis.
Instead what we should focus on is the decision-making process.
And it makes sense that if:
A- Horus and half the Imperium is treasonous
B- Terra had fallen
C- their own allies has been slaughtered
That would need to consolidate their power and the best way to do so would be to seem legitimate to as many undecided forces as possible.
Also, the big blue boyscout does seem to have a bit of a "Batman" mentality where he tries to prepare for many different possible outcomes.
So yeah... it makes sense from his standpoint and its within his character to come up with such a failsafe.
Everything needs a back up plan. In case everything had already gone to ashes, Guilliman founded Secundus. He would have had 5 if not six loyalist Primarchs, a home base, and the people of Ultrimar would have made for the best of the best of imperial citizens. The Emperor had a backup plan if he lost on Terra, that trinket that Vulcan made would blow the Sol System to Kingdom come, and all the Primarches who weren’t demons would have been slain. But the light of Ultrumar would still shine in the darkness.
I think Rho needs to read the comments because in every topic about RG people leave the same comments but for some reason Rho ignores it or doesn't really read them.
To answer the question with a question. Do you hold ground and stay safe, or do you try the warp again, which has been the worst they've ever seen it?
He was right to do it, because if he didn’t the idea of the imperium could have died.
He was wrong because he focused solely on it and not on the ensuring that the rest of the Imperium was for sure gone.
Guilliman, while a creature of logic and reason, is at least Hopeful. And coldly pragmatic. He had very little intelligence on the Ruinstorm as Chaos was still a new thing the Primarchs were dealing with. The Warmaster and his forces severely outnumbered his forces, and building up a redoubt and operations base to engage in intelligence gathering and harvesting of resources, as well as keeping the Imperial Dream alive makes sense. I know people still hate the Ultras because of Wardian Derp from years ago, but let's face it: would you trust any of the other Primarchs to pull what he did and not screw it up badly? The Emperor thought what he did was sound. That should be the end of it
The problem it there was no way of knowing if terra was still standing had they pushed and had terra been taken they could easily go into a slaughter then that’s the end of the emporium
Jaghatai Khan was in the exact same position yet he made it to Terra. What's guilliman's excuse?
@@trajanfidelis he was further away and there was almost profe with the the emperor was dead with the the beacon bing snuffed out
And well being trapped in a huge Warpstorm might be a lil bit of a hindrance.
The Lion has only half his legion at Macragge. The rest is either with Corswain or on Caliban.
If the success of the loyalists depended so heavily on the Ultramarines - despite losing over half their strength at Calth - shouldn’t the Blood Angels have run interference for THEM and not the other way round?
Honestly I don’t think the casualties taken during the shadow crusade were actually taken into account by the writers. The word bearers and ultramarines were crippled by the conflict both reduced to well below half peak fighting strength. The world eaters also took heavy casualties with 10s of thousands of marines and most of their fleet destroyed but all the legions continued on in the heresy like nothing happened. Apparently somehow replacing 10s of thousands of super soldiers who take decades to recruit in a war that lasted 7 years.
Love your content Rho, have to wonder though are you stoned while you make these videos? You seem to be taking in slow motion and often I find it better to speed them up slightly while watching them. 😅
You are wrong Rho, Guilliman couldn't decide what to do with two, nor with three full legions, he has no authority over them. He couldn't even suggest to this brothers to try and make a rush to Terra, simply because his brothers, getting to Ultramar, implicitly accepted that Terra could already been lost.
The part of Kurze could easily be interpreted as: just when the brothers realized that there was a very good chance that the Emperor still was fighting, they ditched their Imperium 2.0 and rushed to their father's side. In a race against time, just as you just described the horus heresy, they used this time to prepare a good counterpunch, or in case the worst has already happened, to defend humanity.
Imperium Secundus was kept as a Secret, not because it was wrong, nor a sin; but because it was not the time to discuss the matter, the priority was to save the Imperium, not to debate if imperium Secundus is a good name for a contingency plan.
My question is why was Sanguinius transported but not the other two primarchs? If the lore is still that there was a Techulca warp engine to go there instantly, how did they find out that the empire still stood and why was only Sanguinius sent?
The lion pony out the angels visions of the future haven’t changed roboute used his forced to hold an opening in enemy forces for the blood angels to go through I don’t remember why the lion didn’t make it
Yes he was right because his fathers' great work needed to continue uninterrupted or the Empire might have split thousands of times ruining humanity's chances to survive.
Rational thinking is Guilliman's forte. Rational thinking involves collecting facts, analysing them, and using data to arrive at the most logical solution that minimizes risks. Guilliman made the most logical decision given the known circumstances and with hindsight, we know that in that instance, his strength was his weakness.
On a side note, here we see another insidious aspect of Chaos. The Ruinstorm caused Guilliman to rely on his primary attributes and this inadvertently led to the Emperor's demise.
It's important to remember that not only did guiliman fail to use pharos to reach terra, he used it to divert the other legions that were on their way to Terra to Macragge. It is this mistake, as Kairos Fateweaver points out to Lorgar in the first heretic, that cost the loyalists victory in the Horus Heresy. Both Malcador and Lion El Johnson suspect Guilliman of treason because of his personal ambition.
Not only was Guillilan wrong for creating imperium secundus but he failed to ever arrive during the siege. When he does arrive in the aftermath, he throws his weight around and forces the loyal legions to break up into chapters, going so far as to attack the imperial fists. Guillimans mistakes in 30k are big...Treason big.
He made it based off the info he had as far as he was aware Terra had fallen or was close to falling best for it exist with the chance to rebuild than to try and save what was already lost also the emperor was going to die one way or another. Either Horace kills him and the chaos gods win or the Emperor gets mortally wounded and manages to kill Horace. It took two complete Legions and three more broken Legions to clear the storm long enough for one legion to make it through.
Think he felt shame for waiting so long and I think he believes founding secondus as writing off the emperor. He’s guilty. Was it the correct thing to do yes but was it right. In the minds of his brothers especially Rogal:no. Do believe having a second imperium beyond the rift would be the right move. Rome did the same after it started waining and it helped Rome survive in one form or another for almost 1200 years after.
I think it was correct, not as well executed as it could have been. If you thought the emperor was gone, sending three full legions to die on terra is not necessarily a tactically sound decision when you are looking at the continued survival of the empire in some form. A tough choice needed to be made. Continue the hope of the original dream with three powerful legions to fend off Horus when he comes, and he would come or go to what you thought was lost and could now be just ruins or a now entrenched enemy.
Guilliman was acting with what information he had in regards of making Imperium Secundus and creating it to consolidate his forces to stand against Horus and the rest of the traitors is a smart move especially due to the warp storms blocking the light of the astronomican and all message from Terra also being blocked. For all that Guilliman knew he was alone and Ultramar was the last stronghold of the old Imperium so he did the only thing he could do with what he knew consolidate his forces and prepare for the next war what he could gather in Ultramar. Though he was emotionally distressed about the Imperium 'falling' he atleast did the sensible thing in soldiering on and further made it clear it was in service of humanity to create Secundus by naming Sanguinius as the Emperor instead of himself.
TLDR: Gulliman acted on what information he knew and drew a conclusion that Terra had fallen and so prepared for the war that was to come to Ultramar until Konrad spilled the beans about him being assassinated in future.
To go against my Primarch is the ultimate heresy! My brethren, My Chapter, My Emperor, I will honour all to my last breath!
Sounds a bit like a Lodge statement! Honor all to your last breath but your Emporer first, chapter second, brethren third, otherwise you are at risk of falling prey to heresy!
@@toddolson4614 Of course brother, it applies to all sons of the Emperor! It's the indoctrination oath of the Ultramarines.
Edited because the machine spirit ( predictive spell check) was acting up again.
What book is it where Malcador probes Sanguinius’s mind?
I thought the emperor told him not to let the imperium of man fall if Terra was lost
I think this is how a plausible civil war could break out against the lord regent. Maybe we even see something like the Minotaurs Chapter Master vs Roboute
We’ve already seen that Minotaurs got wrecked by the custodies
This is why we have trials, to determine actions and intentions.
The road to the warp is paved with good intentions. This is why the emperor founded the imperial truth
6:30 If corax hadn't left terra by the time of the siege of terra he could have raised a good ten or twenty thousand new ravenguard marines from the populations that fronted his liegion from the start of the great crusade instead of getting his geneseed tech destroyed by the alpha legion on deliverance.
Congrats. You bungled almost all that post.
Bobby G is too smart for humanity of 40k. In 30k it was presumptuous but acceptable, in 40k he has to contend with the worst poison of civilization: religious fervor.
I totally understand the notion of Gman not making an effort to make it or at least try to find a way to the throne world. I can clearly see why it wasn't a good idea to found a second imperium. The imperium at its dier moment needed Guilliman and his Ultramarines. They could have very easily turned the tied of the war but where was he? Playing politics on his homeworld on the assumption the imperium was lost. That would indeed rub a lot of people the wrong way. For sure one of those particular individuals would be Dorn himself. Now that would be a very heated interaction.
Sanguinius never accepted the title of emperor! He insisted on being called emperor regent. Small but important difference in my opinion
I think he was very quick to do this, maybe not create a second empire, but just say that he was focusing on making sure his territory was right before risking everything on a suicide trip not knowing if there was an empire to save or not.
The decision was the military correct one. When you are cut off from other forces, have no communication, supply lines or intelligence you hunker down and establish a strong hold and a structure of leadership and command. Not charge into the unknown and get all your men killed and lose your only strong hold.
much ado about nothing, he thought the Emperor was dead, he was simply trying to not lose what his father had created. As soon as he found out the Emperor was alive he immediately abandoned it.
The emperor wasn't perfect and neither am I. Guilliman upon returning to Terra after his resurrection.
in my opinion imperium secundus was the correct tactical, strategic and rational decision in a situation of uncertainty and with such steaks
I dunno. I don’t think Guilliman can do anything other than his nature. Likewise, don’t forget that Sanguinius did agree to be Emperor of Secundus at Guilliman’s request. Johnson was also ok with all of this. Likewise, I’m not sure the arrival of the Xlll would have made a difference in the fight between the EoM and Horus. The EoM had a personal battle with himself and held back against Lupercal until he, himself, was mortally wounded. If he had not done so, Horus would have lost almost immediately. The Ultramarines would have been a non factor in that regard. Had they arrived in time, it’s possible Horus would have fled, regrouped, and returned with a truly overwhelming force of a limitless demonic army that could not have been stopped by the entirety of the Loyalist forces. Lastly, to further the argument that it was Guilliman’s nature, he subsequently created the Imperium Nihilus, naming Dante as its leader. If at first you don’t succeed…
*Rho calls us Heretics*
*Me sharpening my krieg-war-shovel* "Plz repeat that dear Scholar... >:C"
That coming from a space wolf fan is rich considering they left terra to try and assassinate horus and failed at that. If anything the space wolves actions were worse than the ultramarines as they didn't have a warp storm keeping them from traveling.
I think he was right for doing it, but I think he went about it the wrong way.
The three of them should have simply created a council that would vote on things, thus no primarch could be accused of believing themselves the equal to the emperor(their father)
And I think a different name would make it less heretical. Like Imperium Bastion or something, instead of secundus
"How can you say he's doing the wrong thing when you created him to do exactly that?" *cough*LORGAR*cough*
This being set up as a plot point in 41k is so strange. The HH is a time of legend and rumour anyway - but quite apart from how anyone would find out, why would they believe it? And why would they care? Guilliman clearly isn't a traitor or usurper.
His alternative was untenable. He couldn't simply cover his eyes, assume things were fine and it'd work itself out. It wasn't even a betrayal but an imitation, the highest way he could honor what he thought was his father's legacy.
As much as roboute may wish it woild
Would
It was a mistake but a unfortunate mistake one born out of shock and desperation rather then any malicious intent or selfishness. He didn't want to have to do it but if he hadn't in his eyes the imperium would have fallen. It was unavoidable for it was not a mistake made by calculation instead it was one made due to his nature.
Had the emperor seen the issue happening would the imperium secondus could have already been created.
He was right an wrong. He didn't know so S.C was plan B if Tera was lost to the traitor legions. He was wrong in the way because he didn't do good enough to let everyone know that the moment Tera was founded they would return to the emperor.
The Dark Angels really should have been there on Tera. With the White Scars, Imp Fists and Angels. I could imagine the Lion having words about Angron storming through the palace as a demonic prince.
Well, he was obviously wrong and essentially admitted as much. There was a scene where the Lion confronts both of his brothers and makes the case to them as to why Terra is still out there. That doesn't mean he had perfect knowledge until then, as the Lion inferred his conclusion based on the Night Haunter's visions.