Tesla Semi: Worst big rig ever? | Auto Expert John Cadogan
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
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John if you watch the fraudulent Tesla Semi video of the trip you will see a truck with 11 concrete barriers going up a 6% incline. Elon then claims it is the 81000 lbs maximum weight. Looking at the dimensions of the blocks they are between 525KG to 1000KG depending on which site you look at. so the fully load Semi has between 11000Kg and 5665Kg on the back. I think you might be being a bit generous, either that or Elon was lying about the GMV at the time of the climbing the incline.
Also Elon said in 2017 "to be clear we can do this now" referring to the convoying tech, 1 million mile between break downs. Controlling its self if the driver passes out, call for medical attention. Oh and in the latest, the majority of the customers who put down there deposits are going to be stiffed as Tesla are keeping the majority of the Semis for themselves.
Yet the Musktards worship Elon like he is Brian. Like Brain, I think Elon is a very naughty boy.
@@alexwright6038 DOT is allowing another 2000 lbs max weight for electric Semi's. Apparently a heavy electric truck doesn't damage the roads the same as a diesel Semi. One thing John calculated the weight of the battery but how did he get the total weight for the tractor? I missed that one somehow. What we need is to put the tractor on a scale and get the actual weight of the thing. Until then it's just speculation. I'm always willing to give a company a chance to prove their product, unless I'm an investor of course. I say what do we have to loose, just wait and see. What laws they have for Truck weights in Australia wont affect Tesla very much since its such a small market.
@@jeffk464 In plain sight the load on the trailer was 11 blocks of concrete which are roadside barriers. At the top end they are 1000Kg each. That is an 11000 Kg load maximum, that footage Tesla provided. Tesla would be screaming it from the roof if the payload was, as good if not better than an ICE truck. The only reason not to mention the payload is, it is pathetically small.
I Love the thumbnail…. Triple Shit Box!!! 😂🤣😜👍 Keep it coming John!🫡
Sorry mate, love your channel but don't really want to be thinking about your balls and related grooming 🤣😂
I love that demonstration of the Tesla semi with all those concrete barriers on top of the flatbed ! In reality those were styrofoam concrete barriers ! If you notice the flatbed is pre-arched to accommodate heavy weights and straightens out as the load gets heavier. Strangely those supposed concrete barriers didn't push the pre arch down at all !
That's the world today.Outright LIES and deception in a world of unquestioning, unthinking morons that will accept ANYTHING.Well maybe we're not quite there yet but the elites and their stooges have it hand.
@@randgrithr7387 I've seen loaded trailers and I've seen unloaded trailers.The loaded trailers flatten out.
Musk is a fraud and serial liar and cheater.
Why should anyone takes him seriously?
I think you are overlooking some of the key points in the Tesla truck launch! The CAD designed cup holders, the induction phone charger and the little hooky thing to hang your coat on. 🙂
😆 🤣
Based on how well Tesla implement things first gen, I'm also thinking the cup holders will splash fluid everywhere, the induction phone charger will randomly set your phone on fire, and the coat hook will snap off as soon as you try to hang your weatherproofs on it. This will of course all supposedly be fixed by a series of software updates that will also disable other features and make the truck slower with less range.
Getting one just for the wireless charger......
I think the fact that John didn't even mention the awesome badass revolutionary windshield wipers basically undermines his core fact-based argument.
Absolutely critical to successful truck driving!@
The first driver that takes a Semi to a weighbridge and publishes the axle loadings will be my hero.
You would also need the bill of lading
A lot of details you conveniently left out too good sir who probably isn’t currently sending people to space, digging holes in the ground to cut down terrific, building production cars that leaves their petrol competition wanting and needing. That’s only half of it. Even if it not perfect he’s done more trying then you or I have for humanity atm in our lives.
@@jaycee2556 Plus this clown is just a HACK, joker for entertainment purposes only.
@@jaycee2556 Digging holes in the ground isn't cutting down traffic, he's just made tourist attraction rides for underground Tesla taxis, and his cars definitely do not stand out from the competition except in their poor price/value ratio.
Give me an emerald mine's worth of fortune and I'm pretty sure I can do more for humanity than he did, and with less false advertisement along the way.
@@PatrixBest if it wasn't for his cars, there wouldn't be competition. It's because of Tesla that all these other manufacturers are building ev's.
Just spitballing here, but there might be a usage case for Woolies & Coles in major cities. With a centralised distribution hub feeding suburban stores, as long as you had charging points at both ends you might be able to run the fleet all day. The bean counters would need to see if the reduction in payload is outweighed by the operational costs though. Aussie Post might also have a usage case for transporting our parcels of plastic dog poop & toilet paper between their sorting centres. From my personal experience, they seem to love to spend most of their time moving my parcels from one sorting centre in Sydney to another.
or sending the same Fruit and Veg that can be grown in Darwin to Darwin from locked in contracts of Farmers in Victoria. Its the bow down to Managers in Corporations who stuff things up so their end of year bonus is better despite common sense
Short haul EV trucks are already available from other truck manufacturers, e.g. Volvo et. al. Tesla know they can't compete at that level so they are trying this long-haul bullshit, which other companies won't touch because they did the maths and know it won't fly.
short to mid range local trucking? Yeah EV makes sense that's why there so many of them available at that need-point, i.e. small and mid size vans suitable.
But something the size of a semi? No use unless it will do the 500 miles, charge an an hour or so on a charger you might actually find.
And the Tesla semi really doesn't and can't fit that with current battery and charging capabilities.
Semis are the point at which you *need* to be thinking about hydrogen if you want to transition en masses.
In 20 years...? Wouldn't like to say. But short to mid term? Batteries are not the way there. Cars and vans sure: *waves at evidence of millions of ev cars and vans*
EV semi could make sense for very high value/margin loads, like luxury cars where you're only shipping two or three at a time. Maybe.
But in most cases we'd be doubling or tripling the number of trucks on the road.
As well as lower pay load there is the massive cost of rewiring the depots to charge them and parking.
The only way to get them to work would be to have a prime mover parked up to swap over,
Then you are up for 2 trucks to do one trucks work!
The fact that during his "delivery event" nobody even specified what the actual weight hauling capacity actually is, speaks volumes. The weight hauling capacity and the range are the most important parts. Instead they talked about acceleration of the truck and cup holders and wireless charging.
Not that i like electric truck idea being a diesel mechanic but did you subtract the 2.5t from removing the cast iron engine and gearbox and 2t of fuel ?
I was thinking that myself but in the end, all that matters is the total weight of the truck. The more it weighs, the less it can haul.
2 tonnes of fuel? Is that a fair comparison with a 800km EV truck? More like 0.32 (320 litres) tonnes of fuel (a diesel truck of 22 tonnes payload uses approx 40l/100km).
@@Ulrich_von_Jungingen about 260kg diesel is less dense than water about 850g per litre
Yeah there is some additional things to factored in but don't be stupid with the numbers either 2t of fuel is more than road numbers as for the engine and trans etc, well then you would need to add back motors, charge controllers, speed controllers high power electronics isn't small or light and he was being a bit lenient with the battery bevause even if the range works out to 1000kwh the point at which the truck stops and says zero charge can't actually be zero lithium batteries can't be run that low so the battery really needs to be about 1100kwh
I have worked on 100 plus trucks that carry 2000 plus leters in quad tanks. Yes it will go alot further on that amount of fuel than a battery. If large transport company's had interchangeable batterys at border towns and big city's there is a slight chance they could work not better than diesel but work 😂
When they avoid giving details on the weight and load capacity you just assume there is bs involved...
@Ray Johnson Everyone is making assumptions and getting different answers. If Musk just put out the details then we would know. It's interesting that he doesn't. Once they are out in the wild, if that ever happens, then we will know...
they also didnt mention tco savings nor did they mention fuel savings.. which is also annoying..
He assumes of course that Tesla is the same fraud as Government Motors and Nikola. He is a funny person and has the right to be wrong all the time.
God knows Tesla has form in that regard.
Hi John,
I watched with interest your critic of the tesla Semi last night. My background has been in transport as an interstate owner driver, paid driver and in management including maintenance. I am now retired.
The pay load for a single trailer in is roughly around 24 tons. But load weights have a large spread. As an example grocery out for a DC vary from 16 to 20 tonnes but steel out of the mills such as Port Kembla can be up to 27 tonnes if you have a light set up. Full loads from depot to depot are simply paid by the load. I have carted very light loads, industrial filter frames and bags in a 40’er. And the other extreme was a 25 tonne half gear (3m dia - wide loads are always fun) from Bendigo to Bellambi. The pay rate was the same for both. But most of the interstate freight is consolidated loads, transported in tautliners drop decks with mezzanines. With this equipment a good operator balances volume with mass to maximize returns. I worked for a company which had an ex Post set of 4.6m double drop decks. These trailers were so heavy m/t, it was like dragging Tasmania up the Hume. (N.B. 4.6 as opposed to 4.3 incurres a penalty GVM reduction of 10%. One thing to keep in mind when running along the east coast with 900km+ between pick and drop, a driver must have a break of at least 30 minutes which could be used to feed in a few electrons. One hour spent at a charge station would be ok because not all freight is express. (Although a lot of customers think that you should be on their doorstep by six am before thy open.)
All major brands: MB, Volvo, Renault, Man, DAF (Pacar), Freightliner (MB), Kenworth (Pacar), and BYD have built prototypes or preproduction vehicles. There are smaller units already in Australia by Volvo and MB. Volvo plans to assemble battery powered units at Wacol by 2025. Hino has demonstrated hydrogen fuel cell truck out of Coregas Port Kembla. A very brave Lex Forsyth of Janus Electric has converted a conventional pm from diesel power to battery electric by removing the engine and transmission replacing it with a big battery and reduction box driving a conventional bogie diffs ready for a ten minuet swap. Janus has plans to have a swap station at Port Macquarie. With weight as the main obstacle, he has approached the bureaucrats, with no result as I understand, to increase the GVM for electric trucks. There are a precedents for this, USA has granted an additional 2000lb and in Australia NHVR has allowed an extra 500kg over the steer if the engine is Euro 6. This was pushed by Linfox with MB and Volvo. (It pays to be big with connections)
All this means that it is more of a challenge to use battery prime movers between Australian capital cities. With a few more years to mature the equipment I am confidant that battery powered trucks will be able handle metro and near reginal operations from grocery, waste, port work and construction associated work. But the priority should be passenger transport particularly for metro and other city/town work. As you have pointed a few times because of economic realities most PMs used in metro are old, pumping out NOX, sulphides and particulates the size of blue metal. Until the economics are changed we will be paying more for health. As an example, in 2001 we were offered $70 to cart m/t containers from Villawood to Banksmeadow. We pointed out you can’t get a taxi for that price; the response “take it or leave it.”
The Tesla Semi is unlikely to be landed here mainly because it is 2.6 m wide. Like the US utes sorry trucks, it is too big. I am not too sure of the driver center position. This could cause problems when reversing into a tight spot. We have not heard of this since the Italians took them off the road in the 1960s. The truck engages three motors for accelerating and on grades then disconnects two motors while on the flat is clever engineering. I will be interested in Sandy Monro’s assessment. There is a lot more to cover impact of renewable energy on transport.
I an also a fan of Kurtis from Cutting Edge, Sabine Hosserfelder - Science News (though some goes over my head) and of course Jason - Engineering Explained (more practice on vernier caliper required)
Are you going to Robert Llewellyn’s Fully Charged Show Sydney in March next year?
John don’t be a bloody pedant when reading this. Most of us are just simple old curmudgeons.
"Most of us are just simple old curmudgeons" - brilliant, true, and very very funny! (I had to look up the word "curmudgeon" - what an amazing word. One word to describe a huge proportion of the World! 😅).
Christopher - thank you so much for your comprehensive post. I probably learned more from your one post than I managed to learn in the past two years reading online on this subject. I want to hear the views of people with first hand truck driving experience, but often they don't write them down I've found. I'm particularly interested in hydrogen for trucks: whether it could work (or not). I've read / heard so many conflicting views from people with no first hand experience at all: I want objective information (basically, if we had plenty of hydrogen, would it be useful for trucks?). Anyway, thanks for writing so much and so well, and I look forward to more!
PS: Be sure to save your posts somewhere before clicking the RUclips Post button - it has a habit of deleting long posts...
@@jb9652 curmudgeons and quagmires go hand in hand
A middle position of the driver makes sense with parking and such cameras available. They did not have that "back then".
It's funny.... He mentions hydrogen as a potential replacement for diesel. Hydrogen might be a good fuel. The downside is, of course, we ain't got no hydrogen. It may be the most plentiful element in the universe, but not on Earth. We make the stuff by burning natural gas to generate steam to strip other natural gas we didn't burn into hydrogen.
Nothing beats diesel.
@@christo930 We have to imagine it. Easier than finding it or making it. 🙂
Very interesting!! But with the weight you were talking about,wouldn't the weight come down as the battery truck wont have an engine and gear box?
Probably not lighter, even some of Tesla's currently line up is heavier than most gas powered sedans
4 heavy electric motors cancel that weight
No. As with all EV examples so far, the electric vehicles without batteries are heavier than their ICE counterparts. The battery pack adds to kerb mass.
You obviously don't know how much they weigh..
Correct me if I am wrong. But, photo of the load shows that the 500 mile test could have been hauling 11 jersey barriers at 1.8T each, is ~20T total. A 53 ft flatbed weighs about 4.5T empty. Assuming this was the 500 mile test, total weight was 36.7T so tractor is 13.1T, not 19T.
TESLA semi hauled 82k Gross UPHILL @ DONNER pass 7000+ feet , passing a ICE semi w/ 80k Gross.
Okay well we haven't confirmed those numbers. It's possible the barriers weren't even concrete. We simply don't know until the actual release.
Too funny...
My Square nose Pete pulls a 100000pound pay load in Canada...
And tesla dances around with 40000pay load up hill on 6%...I pass everything on a 4% grade WITH UNDER HALF PAYLOAD AS WELL...
video is a skewed LIE.and Hilarious!
500 miles on one battery...I do 1300 miles on my tanks.
HE says 1000KWh battery (2KWh x500miles)
THEN a 70% charge give 350KWh...in 30 min....
even a Grade school math kid can see there is BS here...70% on a 1000KWh battery is 700KWh not 350KWh...
TESLA IS ALL about the sizzle not about the sauce!!!
As far as this being main stream logistical..
SLIM AND NEXT TO NONE AND SLIM JUST LEFT TOWN
@@MsAdamthebad so…none then?
@@RBEmpathy “it’s possible the barriers were not concrete”. …………🤡
As a non serious answer, that's actually be trialled in Germany, is the use of overhead wires like in trains. Tom Scott did a video on this late last year. It may work for a country like Germany where a long distance trip is only a couple of hundred km, and would be highly impractical here in Australia. It does make for an interesting thought experiment, IMO, though. The plus side is it would keep the trucks in the left lane where they belong instead of straddling all lanes of the Hume, holding up traffic.
Trains have the advantage in that the ground (earth) path for the current is through the steel rails.
Rubber tires block that option, so you end up needing two wires on catenary to complete your circuit.
Electrical conductivity and transmission losses are real, and you need to evaluate your tradeoffs between using copper vs. steel wires for your overhead.
One interesting bit of information is that the route from Los Angeles / Long Beach to Las Vegas goes through Cajon Pass, where the interstate highway runs in parallel with a three track railroad mainline.
That route is the principal way to ship freight from the ports into the interior of the country. Currently, using diesel fuel, it is much more efficient and cost effective to ship via intermodal containers on the trains.
The railway lines are not electrified, because even with hydroelectric power from the dams on the Colorado river, there's no juice to spare. The river is subject to variable water levels from year to year, and the dams are maxed out.
Solar and wind power are being generated along that corridor, but not as base load power.
The BNSF railroad running east from Seattle was built using hydroelectric power approximately 120 years ago, and the last wires came down in the 1970s, during a time of high oil prices... because diesel-electric trains cost less to run.
Sounds like a train
Been used in open cut mines for 20 years manned and unmanned operation
It will cost countries a lot of money to install overhead wires on motorways. The UK still doesn't have every rail route electrified with overhead wires as it cost loads of money to do so and isn't that reliable.
"It may work for a country like Germany where a long distance trip is only a couple of hundred km" You obviously are not from here. No it does not its a stupid german invention as there are so many stupid unworkable solutions for problems that do not exist.
And the routes are much MUCH longer. We do not talk Germany, we talk Europe including south east Europe, North of Africa, Middle East inclöuding Israel and Jordan and Russia. Trucks must cover routes at the extremes from Marrakesh to Narvik and from Izmir to Belfast. Thats a bit short of 6000 Kilometers or in US coins 3750 miles. The farthest routes are from Baghdad to American military posts in Germany or from Teheran to Paris. Of course the majority runs under 200km. Just as in the US.
Think you missed the battery size by 20% (1 tonne = 1.7 kw/mile inc regen braking). EVs have greater wight limit (2 tonnes). The battery may well be offset by a far lighter engine (s)(1 Tonne). So I think they can get close.
6 ton Battery offset by lighter Ele Eng I think no get real
do they pay more in taxes to offset the additional wear and tear to our already crumbling infrastructure? Seems like Tesla can't bring literally anything to market without some kind of government subsidy.
@@jimmunro4649 I think yes. Suggestion was a conventional engine weighed on the order of 2000lbs. Single plaid motor on the order of 50kg giving 300 lb max. All other components being equal or less (axle, structure, gearboxes and clutches) so about a third of the battery is offset by the weight saving of the motors.
@@MrTaxiRob 2000lb is about 3% increase and the injuries caused by particulates probably more costly that the increase in repairs.
@@mikem6549 what about the particulates released during freeway construction? Not to mention the carbon released by concrete production itself. You guys don't really think things through, do you? There is a good use case for EVs, I'm not denying that, but it's not a magic bullet. We should be moving away from personal transport to begin with, while freight should be primarily handled by electrified rail networks. It's the absolute most energy efficient mechanical means of land transport.
Most of Elon Musk's fans are bugmen and most people who drive tractor-trailers are not.
Man, I really wish my truck accelerated faster is something no trucker has ever said. Hard acceleration would lead to broken cargo.
I suspect they might've offset some of the weight with the driver cab and such but still won't cut it. It might work on shorter routes where bulky but light items need moving but what freight operator would risk investing in it for such limited application.
We aren't supposed to charge these auto batteries past 80%, SO 500 miles max range is now 400 miles of usable range. The batteries get less and less efficient with every charge, So that 400 miles is now 375-325 or less. The only application I can see working with these trucks is yard truck duties. They don't drive very far and are always near the warehouse where they can be plugged in between shifts.
As the fuel burns the current trucks get lighter and lighter and more and more efficient. I've hauled more than a few loads that I couldn't fill my tanks or I would be too heavy. You can't take a chunk of battery out at the scales.
Actual truck range: 100 gallons @8.6 mpg is 860 miles of range. Batteries just can't do that. Trucks have to be able to go 650 miles between stops, at minimum. That's 10hrs @ 65mph, that's not even pushing it.
Then there is the problem with charging and waiting to charge, again the grid can't handle charging the few cars out there now, no way we could handle a couple million trucks!
Whoa there Johnny.
The diesel engine and fuel on a standard 'merican (your phrase) truck do have some mass. The fuel alone, at 350 US gals (~1400 litres) weighs in above a ton, while the engine weighs in at about 3,000 lbs (1350 kg), so the net gain in weight is far less than you indicate. In other words, the loss of payload is nowhere near as bad as you would have us believe.
I agree that an electric rig is not the holy grail and not applicable in all situations. In an urban environment, or between two towns less than 800 km's from each other, where it can go back to the barn at the end of a shift for recharging, it might just be the ideal solution.
While your analysis is typically sterling, I think in this case you need to set things ceteris paribus between the two alternatives and re-cast your graphics intensive numbers.
You are not wrong about the Diesel drive train having mass but remember the non battery parts of the electric drive train also have mass. The motors and gear boxes/differentials/control hardware etc all weigh a significant amount.
But I agree it's probably not as simple as +5t. It's probably +3.5 to 4t but I'd have to see the actual figures to see if that adds up or if Jon had taken that into account. He didn't mention taking it into account I hope he clarifys.
@@milamber319 That's why I only brought up the fuel and the diesel engine. The fuel system/tanks and other components would disappear, but we would probably still be left with a transmission of some sort, though it would be simpler and lighter due to having fewer gears...diesels have a very narrow power band, electric motors have a quite broad one. As you point out, the control components and electric motor would add weight, but far less that their diesel counterparts. Others have also commented that the battery pack would weigh less that John indicated (smaller capacity/higher energy density per kg cells) Throwing in cheaper "fuel" and reduced maintenance, electric might be a real winner in SOME applications.
The mass of fuel being transported reduces throughout the trip so it might average out at the equivalent of 700 kg rather than a full tank/s of 1,350 kg.
@@wandpj Yes, but in the US, the max weight of the rig while carrying max. fuel, its wet weight, is what dictates the payload capacity. The fact that the truck would weigh less at the end of the run doesn't affect the max. permissible payload.
A lot of trucks can carry 2K mile range of fuel. So you could cut that to only 500 miles for comparison purposes.
Hey John, as always mate, love you passion and research but ...... Whilst I agree with you I think your numbers are slightly off.
Before adding the 5t of battery, surely you should have removed the 2t to account for the diesel engine and fuel tanks?
To be fair, the Melbourne-Sydney or Sydney-Brisbane runs will require a minimum of 1 hour of mandated driver breaks to complete.
But you don't run the battery down to near zero % then expect it to charge back to 100% in an hour.
The actual real world range is probably 70% of 800km. Running it down to 10% then charging to 80%, therefore getting the fastest charging curve.
So where do you put the chargers between Melbourne and Sydney?
@@rjbiker66 So two legs of about 450km then...
@@jonathanrabbitt just like we do now.
@rjbiker66 put charge in every time you need to stop for whatever reason.
Talked to a semi driver carrying a 265 foot long wind turbine blade and his numbers matched yours, an additional 10,000 lbs for batteries. The further downside for him was a requirement to spend additional money to upgrade his license. He was already needing a special permit to haul 80,000 pounds. No mention was made about his need to charge a 1MWh battery. He was over nighting in a town whose claim to fame was having 4 Dollar General stores and not a single Walmart. They do have two truck stops in town but the closest charging station is 50 miles away.
Diesel long haul trucks carry about 300 gallons of fuel and if they get 4 MPG they could go about 1000 miles between fill ups however the laws in the US require them to fill up in every state they go through. There are extra large nozzles on the hoses at the truck stops and high volume pumps so it does not take that long to fuel. Some even have pumps for DEF.
John, you are a breath of fresh air. I recently discovered your channel by some accident while researching other disasters, and have come away thoroughly impressed by your obvious knowledge and research skills. While it is apparent that EV's, whether as passenger cars or commercial trucks are NOT currently viable in any sense, given infrastructure limitations and technological limitations (dealing with thermal runaway problems, etc), why is it that hydrogen isn't being "fast tracked" to counter these EV battery issues (aside from political footballery)? Rhetorically, why can't "we" wait until hydrogen production, as limited as it is, can ramp up enough to at least be considered as an alternative, whether in the US or Australia...the UK is it's own problem), given that the combustion emissions of hydrogen is largely H2O? This EV thing has gone amok and, as you've pointed out so well across several videos, is, at current technology levels, unsustainable. It can be reasonably proven, without a doubt, the following: 1. EV fires due to thermal runaway is at present, and will only continue to rise due to proliferation/concentration of EV's in urban areas/ car parks/airports, etc.; 2: No one (including you as yet unless you have, please forgive me) has addressed the upcoming tidal wave of dealing with some means by which spent EV batteries can be recycled/ disposed with ( we should and can factor THAT into CO2 emission analyses); 3. While hydrogen has been "shown" to be more costly an alternative, I don't see that as a problem given the data against EV issues. Understandably, hydrogen as a motor fuel still has it's own growing pains to endure, but shouldn't this be in parallel to whatever is being gained via EV research & development? Seems to me, that given the completely "innocent" end result of motive force delivered via hydrogen, that developing the required infrastructure to support it should be being developed in sync with EV technology. Both, in the end, if handled appropriately, may turn out as the several options available to the consumer, both with minimal hazard risks and similar gains in terms of environmental impact reductions, but, hydrogen has taken the back of the bus seat here, I find that deplorable given all of the "dip-shittery" surrounding the EV culture of the blind leading the blind. Elon Musk is in a world of his own, and he should be the first Explorer to Mars. +1 respect for your channel, John. In the States we are dealing with Woke culture and LGBTQ+-whatever trying to force a Constitutional amendment (since States' laws aren't good enough, and if they are successful, it's one step closer to obliterating the Constitution completely so that a Socialist Utopia can take permanent root). The only thing stopping that, in my opinion, is that there ARE so many firearms in this country....The Civil War never ended, and that we should remain keenly aware of this if the wrong people in the right places figure that out. I know some of your respondents met with your acerbic wit, and I offer that you hold my opines in the same regard. I did note the flaws in the respondents' posts, however, and wholeheartedly agreed with your responses.
Inside Evs posted a picture of the Semi pulling 44k pounds of cement barrier as part of testing. They calculate that the tractor would weigh 27k lbs and the trailer 10k.
"estamated" they dont Actually know.
@Terry Orzechowski - FALSE , Tesla semi can be 2000+ lb over 80k Gross weight.
@Terry Orzechowski - DONT ever tell ELON he cant do something, ELOM will Embarass YOU.
That's an estimate, we don't actually know. Jersey cement barriers vary in weight, some are less. So I guess that was a best case scenario. We still need the facts though and less speculation sadly
@@markplott4820 can't tell if you're serious or not
It seems there is also a problem in Australia because the max front axle weight for heavy vehicles is 6.5 tons. Volvo just shipped over a couple of test trucks which they can't use because the front axles are 10 tons due to the weight of the batteries. I wonder what the front axle weight of a Tesla semi is?
Didn't know this but this is THE killer for EV trucks. Unless the government changes the rules especially for EV Trucks that it is.
@@drbrendanful of course they will, because Electric Jesus also launches their spy satellites for them.
@@drbrendanful Thats what Volvo and SEA Electric are trying to do.
I strongly doubt it would be overlimit.
I'm a truck driver and thought the same thing dual axel I think gives you 10ton like a rubbish bin truck and can our roads take it
I got my Class One (HGV) in Canada 1974. Been driving more or less steady since then. You hit the nail on the head - Musk is the P T Barnum of our times. I can see EV trucks for local - in town - deliveries, with the odd jaunt to suburbia. No where else. I GVW 63,500 Kg all the time, not a load of potato chips (crisps) Thanks John - always a pleasure.
There was a few people who spotted it carrying 11 jersey barriers which have a weight of 4,000 - 5000 pounds each. So that means they are at least capable of carrying 44,000 pounds to 55,000 pounds. Until we see releases of the carrying capabilities we cant assume it's that much worse than Diesel.
@Seedy Canuck Most Trucking is within 600km of Base, so the Semi can charge at base. In fact OTR Trucking is not what the Tesla Semi was designed to do, it is a day cab.
One of those double barreled English tags might be a finer fit on him.
"Mr. P. T. Barnum - Rentseeker, Esq., 1001 Friends In High Places Mall, The City.
@Seedy Canuck Yeah, me too. 63 500 kg B trains in southern Ontario. I have no doubt an electric powertrain could move that weight... But not very far. I suppose an EV could work for delivery vans and single axle straight trucks which don't go very far. Beyond that, I'm very skeptical.
@@notspm9157 These idiots have been breathing diesel fumes all their lives and it shows.
They don't get the point that number 1 Frito Lays, Pepsi, etc. are huge companies that sell a lightweight product in huge "volume" - which means the cost their product is substantially the cost of towing it across the country in diesel trucks that effectively p!ss the money out the window and into the pockets of big oil
They are buying these trucks because they SAVE MONEY.
Diesel trucks will soon be regarded as carrier pigeons in a smart phone world - hilariously outdated.
The only guys driving them will have names like Fred - or - more likely - Barney.
I find it funny that your driver didn't stop for lunch on their SYD to MEL or SYD to BNE runs, where he will likely(once the chargers are in place, likely at the normal truck stops) be able to add a few extra KMs to the battery.
I agree that the battery will be very heavy(way heavier than the Diesel tanks full), but I also think that the 3 motors will likely be lighter than the ICE equivalent engine in power, so I doubt that it will be as simple as adding the battery weight to the truck weight, thus your 19 t for the truck will not be the correct value, still yet to find out what that weight value is, but your 21% efficiency loss may be a lower value than you think.
If it is within 5% to 10% efficiency loss it will likely be worth at least looking into due to the cost saving on the fuel, Electricity is allot cheaper than diesel.
The trucks weigh about 1-2 tons more than the diesel equivalent depending on the pack, but can haul an extra ton.
In the end they can either carry the same payload or one ton less.
19 tons? It’s closer to 10. Tesla already provided the needed acceleration data to prove that.
John your the best, Elon is in need of an ass kicking for sure... Reenergising the e truck is something Musk rat forgot about...think about it.. if there is another truck at the e bowser in front you, then that 30 min waiting for them to move has just consumed all your available downtime....
If you owned a company that could buy a semi for $90k that would last a million miles and cost you $2.95/mile for a million miles or a semi that cost $250k that would last you a million miles for only $1.85/mile. Which would you buy?
Diesel Total cost. $3,040,000
Tesla Total cost. $2,100,000
The diesel is also slower and requires more down time for maintenance. Every hour the truck is not on the road costs thousands of dollars.
Accidents cost companies millions a year and insurance for semis is not cheap either.
Tesla semi will be much safer in every way.
@@davidbeppler3032 If the operator has to make two trips in the EV truck for every trip by a diesel then that math goes out the window. It just has to be some significant fraction to matter, especially since it rapidly leads to a reqt to buy more EVs to meet the same net need. It's all about the payload, as noted in the video.
Hi John, great video. Surely the most pragmatic solution (albeit not trivial) is to build more electric rail freight infrastructure for long distances and possibly have electric trucks for local distribution?
Hello Mr. Cadogan. I enjoy watching your videos for the humor and unbiased thinking. Having watched both the Semi event and your video in *full* I have to point out that Mr. Technoking (props for using his official title) was not the only one misleading the public here. Yes, Tesla never stated the weight of the Semi tractor but simply adding made-up 5 ton battery on top of a regular truck won't cut it for the scienticically literate. There are many weight saving opportunities in truck design especially starting with clean sheet approach. Having lost the massive engine and transmission together with the fueling system might have helped with this endeavor. One little cheat available in the USA is the added 2k lbs or 1 ton of additional payload capacity for electric semi. All together with the typical "emptiness" of Tesla vehicles and slightly smaller than 1 MW battery (efficiency is 1.7 kWh/mile, not 1.99) I don't see the "no payload reduction* claim as being impossible. Regarding charging - a smaller battery needs less power to be charged up to 70 % in 30 mins. Also literal 1.0 MW charging power was never stated. Semi charger or "megacharger" is refering to order in megawatts rather than the exact mumber. Peak charge could be as high as 1.5 MWs with tapering down as charging progresses. Infrastructure will be a challenge. Pairing the purchase of a semi fleet with Tesla's energy products (megapack) as stated will be helpful. Also in the beginning only large companies operating at scale will benefit from this truck. Driving the same well known route there and back seems the rational application as of now. There are limitations - for instance driving uphill only will hit the range hard as presented by Engineering Explained here on YT. But let's give this development the benefit of a doubt without sending it right into Nikola Motors territory. Lastly I agree with your hydrogen claims - 30 years away at least.
dont try to argue with stupid
Losing the diesel engine and transmission, fuel system, etc. isn't even close to off-setting the extra weight of the battery. Not to mention, there's more you're adding back in than just a battery: battery cooling system, massive electric motors and the wiring to them, motor controllers, battery management system, charge controllers, the list goes on.
You wanna talk about, "scienticically literate?... (LoL, I could have sworn it was SCIENTIFICALLY, but whatever) go watch a video from Thunderf00t; his latest "Busted" video is on the Tesla Semi. This guy is a nuclear research physicist; is that "scienticic" enough for ya? Also, he makes a case using observations from Elon and Tesla's own claims in their own videos that is far worse for the Semi. By his calculations, the Tesla Semi is, at best capable of hauling half the cargo a diesel truck does; slightly over a quarter at worst. Also, diesel trucks have a range of about 1,500 miles per fill-up, three times what the Tesla Semi has, and a diesel truck can be fully fueled in about 20 min.
@@4WDriver Thank you for pointing out the one typo in my long comment. I guess typing on the phone doesn´t help avoid them. To your point I agree that the electric powertrain will be heavier than the one powered by diesel. What I had a problem with was the addition of a battery on top of the existing diesel powered semi tractor by John. Regarding the massive electric motors - are you talking about the three football sized motors that you can carry in your hands? For the rest of it, please read my comment in full.
@@zbynekkriston3932 see ? dont even try gg
@@4WDriver you are proving my point thx
Really enjoyed this ,first time seeing your channel .we are about the same age and dare I say personality but your missing a few key facts actually the battery is 876 kw and it's a dry cell 4680 design this gives a bit less space and a lot less weight added the semi was granted a extra 2k in total weight to allow for equal payload a total of 82k . The charging cap is overcome with installation of megapaks with are 4mw and can charge and discharge in seconds if needed this will negate the load issue on the grid with nightly charging to avoid overloads . And come on covid had a lot to do with the late delivery. Now I'm coming from a 35 year oil and gas background so a win for Tesla is a loss for me but I've studied my enemy for 5 years now and the semi is probably their best effort yet .
And don't forget it doesn't need a 1.4 ton diesel engine, 700kg of fuel, and 400kg of exhaust and other supporting hardware for the diesel engine.
That and they have probably shaved some more weight using cast and milled aluminium rather than all steel.
That combined with the extra weight EV trucks are allowed and the net difference could be almost zero.
@@SirDragonClaw Don't forgett you have to dig up 2500 tons of materials for just on single EV-truck battery! From mining, grinding, refining and manufacturing this "green" trailer may have CO2-lugage of approx 200 tons or even more! How many years or km does it take before the diesel truck is equal to this shit? I think you have exchanged at least 3-4 battery packages before the diesel truck is equal and thus Electrical-Jesus trailer is scrap since long time ago.
one factor, mandatory rest stops which can be used mid route, not gonna be doing those kms in one stint. Probably need dedicated stops built big enough to handle as adoption grows. That probably only applies for proper long haul but along popular routes those sites around the rest time naturally expand over time anyway. Electric probably more suited to sub 300km range deliveries, i'd say the range on the truck would cover a drivers shift 8-12hrs if it turns into a model of trucks owned by the company and they just have drivers on shifts for those closer deliveries
They're all day cabs at the moment so my guess is that they are for short haul but you also only need to top up the battery enough to get to your destination, so a stop from sydney to Melbourne or Sydney to Brisbane to charge would be less than the mandatory stop anyway. Plus the range increases if the weight decreases.
PepsiCo's VP of Marketing: "Wow, we can get some great PR if we buy these Tesla Semis."
PepsiCo's VP of Operations: "21% loss in payload? They're coming out of your budget."
The load capacity is certainly a question, provided that the constraint is weight, not load volume.
However, to be fair to Tesla the calls should include an efficiency of 1.7kWh/ml, & therefore a battery pack or around 900kWh, and allow for the saving of removing engine, transmission & fuel tank from the diesel weight
Didn't you say the Tesla semi wouldn't ever happen?
Very interested to see what the actual weight ends up being for the tesla semi.
As others have pointed you do have to adjust for the weight of the engine, gearbox and diesel fuel. That is going to be easily 1.5 tonnes. Still even so the EV truck is stupid. Frito lays is a genius move by electric Jesus as the limit is volume the chips weigh bigger all. Let’s see the economics on moving something a lot heavier than chips
very close to 12T whereas a diesel prime mover is around 9T
I guess the 500-miles-version has a bigger battery. So be aware of the version of Tesla Semi you weight!
@@morri03 It's also Pepsi, and water is plenty heavy enough.
@@typhoon320i If they loaded the truck to 81 tons gross, it doesn't matter what the load actually is, its how heavy the actual load is that effects the transport efficiency. If it was cans of pepsi then likely the truck was partially empty unless the batteries really impinge on the load space. Less load tonnage = more miles travelled per tonne of load, more money spent on drivers wages, maintenance, loading and unloading. causes you to use more energy in total and means you end up having to buy more vehicles. Bad for the environment.
Great report John. Coincidently I was visiting an industrial unit at Berkley Vale (NSW Central Coast) and they pointed next door to a company called Janus Electric who convert Prime Movers to Electric. Apparently they use battery racks that can be swapped quickly at "refuelling stations" which may be sited along major transport routes. The battery racks replace the fuel tanks on the truck. An interesting idea perhaps, but not a lot of product detail on their website and it seems they may be hunting for investors at this stage.
Hey Ross, Janus concept is stupid and unpractical. Battery exchange thru the bonnet. 5 tonnes of battery . need a 10 tonne forklift like the one used to move empty containers. stupid
@@0.618-0 So what if it's heavy and you need machinery to do it? If you have a dedicated facility and a high volume of EV trucking business, it could work.
15:55
Elon developed new space engines. New electric cars. Now, we have ELON ALGEBRA!!!
sarcasm
And new pollutions. Old solar pannels. Old batteries.....
As a trucker in the UK, let me do the maths here from a different angle. Drive axles and unpowered lift axles weigh around a ton each, steer axles probably pretty close. 3 axles therefore are about 3t wheels included. 5t for the battery. The Tesla unit is already about the same mass as a fully fitted Merc Actros or Scania tractor unit without cab or chassis included in the Tesla. I'm willing to lay money on it being a 9 or 10t unit. Add a 6t flat trailer, or anything up to 10t for a fridge trailer and you're cutting big chunks out of your GVW. Your average european diesel tractor unit is 7-8t all in. Assuming 2t extra for the Tesla, that's 2t less load you can haul around. The reason Tesla and Pepsi chose to haul frito-lay is that's a load that will max out on volume way before it gets close to maximum permitted mass.
1.7 kw per mile. The test with 81000 lbs was from Fremont ca to San Diego ca. Battery size is 900kwh's .
Engineering Explained observed the average speed was 54 mph.
@@JoeOvercoat yes speed limit is 55mph in California for big rigs.
@@terrya6486
I thought the US gov't was letting an EV Semi GCWR to come in at 82k vs. 80k lb? Tesla tends to hold back key info, which drives more speculation; did they do that this time? The routes will likely be 'designed' into the service duty - meaning a charger will be installed at the loading dock - thus doubling the time between loading and fuelling. Thanks for the analysis John.
Yep that’s correct on the 2 tonne allowance. I really want to see that full Timelapse in normal time as it appeared there were stretches well under their interstate limits
EJ mentioned that as well during the Semi mass.
Even so, that's less than a metric ton....about 900kg.
You’re correct about charging occurring at the loading dock, not correct about doubling time between loading and fueling. The Semi charges 80% in 30 minutes, during the off-loading or loading. That’s the whole point...no time is wasted in charging. Same over the road...you have scheduled breaks anyway, during which you re-charge. Stop trying to see this as a “scam” and simply allow yourself to notice a better truck has arrived.
@@johncahill3644 I don't get how detractors keep thinking the loading and unloading process will be faster than charging. I don't know trucking load times, but to me, I would assume it takes longer than 30min. If they wanted to refute the claim, they should say, loading take 5min and charging takes 30, so that's 25min lost. But they're not doing that.
Hey Johnno you’ve done some excellent videos in your time but this one is one of your best. In part of my working life I worked at then BHP port Kembla with a large part of that time driving overhead cranes and loading steel and stainless steel plate with loads weighting just under 26 tons. These loads went all over Australia so off the bat EV semis won’t work for a start as you pointed out then you’ve got your B doubles and your road trains. Now the 500 mile claims for an EJ EV semi were out as the more weight you add the more energy the battery will use and from the first charge the battery degrades meaning less kms as the battery ages and the number of recharges increases and the most importantly the weights the battery are required to move. Been watching videos on Merican EV pickup trucks towing caravans, boats and the like and even at those weights and battery sizes the energy usage is vastly increased sometimes 3 fold.
You are right in what you have pointed out Dave but I do concede that the EV truck guys are pitching at the short run and city market which will be a very good use for them due to the pollution problem there but when they don't produce vital information about their tests or vehicle specs then things like this press release are just puff pieces.
There is already a super efficient long distance freight option - trains. - that could be electrified. A railroad can haul 1 ton for 500 miles on only 1 gallon of fuel. If the rail infrastructure were upgraded so freight trains could average 60 mph, then freight trains would handle more freight. There needs to also be improvement in rail cargo security. A truck driver in literally sleeping with the truck helps protect the cargo from theft and vandalism. The talk about high speed passenger rail usually ignores that the demand for higher speed freight rail is already justified and would remove trucks from congested urban freeways. Then, the Tesla Semi - when they get good enough, could make local deliveries. As it is, the passenger EVs that we are supposed to own are more likely to spend a hundred wasted hours stalled in congested urban freeways. Examine the potential for modernized freight rail.
As a mechanical engineer, who is currently second majoring in electrical engineering and studying power grids and such, EVs are a downright scam at this point in time and for the foreseeable future. Moreover, it is always a good idea to put your eggs in one basket, so instead of diversifying our power sources, we are trying to bunch them all up on the grid, so a single point of failure. Electric transport makes a lot of sense when it is put on rails and the power comes directly from a dedicated network. Being far more efficient, this should be the main ground transport, while diesel trucks should cover the final trips or areas outside of railway range. In trains, up to a point, more net vehicle weight is beneficial, while for tires on asphalt it is detrimental.
Hi John, should take into account the drive train weight differences or at the very least the weight of fuel when completing your calculations? Cheers, Duncan
Bev are always heavier
Yes he should have done that for accuracy. He is probably equating the electric motor weight with the ICE weight but there is also fuel and drivetrain weight not accounted for
@@MrEtnorb
The fuel (battery) in an ev is much heavier then an equivalent ice vehicle. Plus it always weighs the same.
Should he also add in the weight for the reserve capacity for the battery as it will not be normally used in the usable power delivery but will still be extra wight which has to be carried? Would that be another 500 kg?
The electricity stored inside the battery has a large mass too don't forget that.
Now I know what you are going to say but remember that the power that the battery is charged with has come from the power station that typically burns shit tons of fuel to make the electricity in the first place.
Like pollution from the ICE, all you have done is relocated the weight of the fuel.
Now I know we are not talking strictly apples to apples here but the weight of fuel whether it be in a tank strapped to the side of the truck or the weight of fuel that is consumed at
the power station to charge the battery has to be considered.
Plus I would not think there would be much difference in ICE and battery power trains as the truck still has to carry the weight of the truck and trailers as well as their loads.
I can only see it as a yard jockey. It's really great for that application: it's short distances, will likely last more than a day on one charge, with charging station available for it (or them) on the spot to charge when required (you don't need a 1MW charger for that). But it won't work as a substitute for long hauls for sure. City deliveries - may be.
City deliveries make sense, and for a company like Pepsi that goes from factories to grocery wholesalers rather than being a real long haul shipper, it will at the very worst allow them to greenwash some of their less ecologically sound practices.
Add in regenerative braking . . (if it doesn't already do that, I don't know) . . . Makes short-haul work for EVs.
Notably, you wouldn't really want a 1MW charger. A little fact about rechargeable batteries: The faster you recharge them, the faster the battery dies.
You have to build in some sort of mechanism to swap out batteries. Charging rate is too slow for 1kWh
@@Maxwell_Twist that's why Teslas have active cooling for the battery during charge
The point you made on the charging and required electricity to do so is to me the biggest challenge, that’s some serious megawatts of power to each and every charging station… never going to happen.
Also there are 4 motors on that thing, they could potentially be heavier collectively than 1 diesel engine also adding the the trucks mass. They look great but economically I don’t see them Being taken up by rational, profit driven business.
Great report John as usual
Might they work for short-haul with a smaller battery? Or for light and bulky products? Assuming that they can be recharged without breaking the grid, of course - which is a pretty damn big assumption...
@@tullochgorum6323 That's not a truck then... It's a Hiace or a Econovan!
3 motors now, they lost one over the past 5 years and the claim is that the 3 are only on during acceleration and heavy load however in cruise just 1 motor is used.
@@alexphotoman I've been saying that Tesla should have focused on the last mile delivery market, they would have already sold hundreds of thousands of them (if they actually had the manufacturing capacity to build that many, which they don't.)
You can literally hold one Tesla motor and not break your back. I think your motor analysis is not correct
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was recommended to not fully charge or discharge ev batteries, or else you degrade their lifespan considerably. Following this rule would reduce the range/carrying capacity quite a bit more?
I think tesla already limits charging by default by having a larger battery than rated so you dont really get to charge it at "max" even at 100%, actually most ev makers do this already so the battery lasts just a bit longer
I am an over the road truck driver in America. My biggest costs are fuel and breakdowns. 500 miles is about as far as I want to drive in a daybefore I do a 10 hour reset. The cost of 1000 kilowat hours of electricity is a fraction of the cost of fuel to drive 500 miles. Also electric trucks are much more reliable than diesel powered trucks. You failed to prove your case. With respect to infrastructure, that can readily be increased.. When electricity was first put into use, over 100 years ago, the infrastructure did not exist at all. Today the electrical capacity merely needs to be increased. With respect to load capacity, you said it yourself, we merely increase the number of axles. Instead of 18 wheels, an electric truck will need 22 or 26 wheels. You are making a mountain out of a molehill, as we say in America. I look forward to the opportunity to purchase a Tesla truck when they are available.
Dear John
I was recently work for an Electric truck manufacturer as field support. Not fun.
What I can advise on battery usage is that of the trucks rate capacity of 140 KWH, the BMS (Battery Management system) will only allow input charge in the range of 80 to 90%. Ona 7 KW charger (3 phase) this take up to 8 hours.
They are capable of fast charging on DC input of up 400 amps. But this charging will create heat in the battery. The trucks I worked on did not have any temperature control in the battery modules. No cooling or heating in the batteries at all.
This was a failure for the trucks of this design, this year, in NZ where temps dropped to 0. The older batteries did not like this.
Typically, the trucks had a start range (100%), on the dash, of 190 Km. When loaded and in use the range to ‘0’ the range was typically 100 Km. The ‘0’ generally was at 5% and still allowed the truck to operate.
So, for there trucks, 140 KWH at 80% = 116 KWH and over 100 K = 1.16 KWH/KM (with a GVM of about 8 tonne).
An EV truck with a usable battery of 1MWH may have capacity of 1.1MWH
Remember that comparing trucks to EV truck you to minus the engine weight. The drive and motor may weight the same as the gearbox.
Even if you deduct the weight of the engine that is between 1000 to 1500kg so you still have about 3000kg weight gain from the battery
What about the weight of the fuel and gearbox?
@@Sagee1930 what about the motors and electronics the shit to handle that sort of power isn't small honestly if the weight was the same as an ICE semi don't you think they would promote that but they avoid saying anything about vehicle weight
@@Sagee1930 well I estimatred that the gear box would about the same as the electronic drive andthe electricmotor as there is no gearbox on the trucks I worked on. This the smae as most pure EVs. the fuel tanks go
There are few people who are responding with no experience in the industry
John, I think you always tell it like it is. Your calculations are are well thought out but you forget one small fact. There is no longer a hulking big piece of metal at the front of the truck. Remove the engine, or most of it anyway, from your numbers and you will be a little more accurate. I think long hall is not an electric domain and with the current technology, wont be for a while. But for deliveries in an urban setting, it MAY work.
aparntly they can load up to 2 tonnes of fuel allthough that diminishes over distance it still limits total payload
Yes, short range e-trucks can work and in fact Freightliner, Volvo, and Renault have had them out successfully for several years already, they were just overlooked because of how the media and cultists slobber over Tesla. But, unlike Elon and his BS promises they looked at what was and wasn't viable and concluded that about 280 mi (450 km) would be feasible as most daily around town routes didn't exceed that (in America anyway) and battery weight was much less of a problem.
@@jumpingchicken69 Mercedes now has a short haul EV semi in operation, as well.
I think I’ve solved the problem John. All we need to do is stick a big conducting Rod out of the top of the truck and place a grid of chickenwire right across the road on highway network like the old school dodgem cars.
What if we had it run on some kind of track, that could help eliminate vehicle collisions. Maybe we could make them longer while they are on the track and just keep adding trailers until we have formed some form of....wait shit.
As stupid as it sounds they are doing that in Scandinavia somewhere, but its a track in the road to charge trucks on the go
I love this. We could also plant a grapevine or other creeper plant to "green" the road network.
Can we also please add the all round bumper to reduce damage upon collision?
The insurance companies will love this concept. Less hail and collision damage using chicken wire. The Carney's are onto something...
@@adamli8484 You could even make it safer for everyone by separating the heavy haulage from smaller traffic flow. Oh yeah, I see what you mean.
I'll add in a few figures for context regarding Tesla vs. ICE semi.
I couldn't find the weight for the Telsa semis electric motor, but let's just use the battery pack for now: 5 - 5.6T
I'll use a common engine, gearbox and fuel capacity of a standard interstate semi.
Cummins ISX: 1.5T
18 speed Roadranger gearbox: 300kg
2000 litres of fuel: 1680kg
Total: 3.48 Tons
So yeah, the Telsa is really bloody heavy!
In *theory* the Telsa could work on the Melbourne to Sydney run as drivers have to stop for half an hour on that trip anyway, if the truck was plugged in for that half hour it could probably make the journey - just the small matter of installing a shitload of electricity generation at Tarcutta or Holbrook!
That said, it doesn't take into account the terrain that those 500 miles covered in the Telsa test, Nevada *is* fairly mountainous as I understand it so good for them if they didn't do 500 miles purely on flat land. For the Melbourne to Sydney run, about half of it is pretty flat, the rest of it not so much.
Anyway, theoretically possible, but as you say, with the payload capacity being reduced so much, the Tesla better be offering some super savings on fuel compared to the ICE or it's a non-starter.
I'm in no way against EVs, especially trucks, but on current tech I reckon they could find good use as round-town vehicles (grocery deliveries and the like), where the lack of diesel fumes would doubtless be appreciated by the populace.
The entire plaid motor is 95kg, including the motor, inverter and transmission. 3 motors, plus the clutch for two of them, is about 300kg.
Perfect for hooking into Snowy 2.0 - 1/2 way between Melb & Syd
I would never imagine Tesla would do a delivery event knowing very well that this could completely tarnish their reputation by simply a driver giving feedback on their truck. You have to be pretty dumb to believe that, a company like Tesla would not have scrapped this project and went on to build a dedicated factory for the semi truck if these numbers were heavily fudged. Use common sense
I wanna see EJ test his trucks on an episode of Ice Road Truckers. Then we will see the impact on the battery system of minus 40 degree temperatures (same in C as F). Will be fun to see how recharging works, unless some of the battery capacity is dedicated to heating the batteries so they can actually take a charge at such temperatures. And while they are stationary for hours recharging, how will these trucks deal with what happens to (normally) moving components once they are frozen solid within minutes.
you are right, Elon Musk not told the people is. that the battery is loosing energy by cold tempretures. By the electric cars, the battery is loosing 20 to 30% of his energy, by the Semi Truck will be the same. The Tesla Semi Truck will never make in the winter 500 miles.
You’re comparing what is, to all intents and purposes, a technology that is new (for this application) with one that has been evolving for over a century. I think it would be foolish to dismiss it.
@@richardlester5497 I don't dismiss anything. I through a challenge out there.BTW, the left have dismissed nuclear power as a solution to reduce CO2 emissions and dependency on fossil fuels, despite being a very well proven technology.
Melbourne to Darwin 39 hr (3,755.2 km) how many battery charges only using 20% to 80% charge load for optimum battery life? Plus December January temperatures 35⁰ to 40⁰C are the normal day temps, how good is battery cooling fans in these conditions. If hauling equipment to mines from Melbourne 5,000 km could reached. Still need diesel small unit to run power for air-conditioning while you sleep
Range: 2
Thunderf00t just released a great take down of the Tesla semi that is worth a watch. He focuses on the payload as well and points out that it might be even less that 10t for the American trucks. But ever since day one of this Tesla semi farce, Tesla has never and still never mentions the weight of the truck.
It would have been nice to get the weight of just the rig. We'll get it, but seems we'll need to wait for someone to weigh it.
Tesla did say that their rig can haul just as much as a diesel rig. The question is if we're talking a maxed out rig or not.
We'll see when that detail comes out.
Worth noting that rigs don't always run maxed out of course.
On the numbers ... they indicated about 1.7kw/mile for extra detail (as compared to 2kw/mile).
It'll be interesting to see how the numbers shake out as these get used.
To say battery trucks are super niche isn't right. The use case matters HEAVILY. For some use cases, no argument. For some, of course they do. I guess we'll just sit back and see how it goes.
That's the elephant hiding under the table. Details are EJs enemy
Tesla SEMI truck weight 17000lbs
@@mikafiltenborg7572 Would love to know where you're pulling that number from. I feel like it's probably your ass, but I'm hoping you'll surprise me here. Notably, I can't think of many people that would be stupid enough to just blatantly admit to breaking the law by going over regulation with the weight of their semi, but Musk is definitely one of the people I think would be dumb enough to do it, but already feels a bit fishy to me, and I could easily see him going the route of "This is what it would look like if a semi was carrying 11 jersey barriers" like he did with solar roofs. Personally, I think it's best to wait and see what the actual specs say.
Edit: My bad there, seems that electric/natural gas semis are allowed to go up to 82k pounds. I'll take the L there and even though I'm editing this, I'll still leave it in my comment to show the importance of fact checking things first. Notably, it doesn't really make much sense to me since the weight limit is due to the axles, and you're not adding any more axles to the truck, so that seems like a very strange change to make. Still doesn't really change my opinion of Musk, but it's not good to sling mud at someone for doing something they didn't do.
Tesla Semi weight is now known. 500 mile range weighs 26,000 lbs. 300 mile range weighs 20,500 lbs.
I think their focus should be for short haul transportation instead. There might be a reasonable use case for an all electric truck. I believe in Germany they're trialing trolley trucks with special lanes in expressways which have overhead electrical grid to power the trucks. The trucks themselves have much smaller batteries for the short inner city commutes. At this point though, why aren't governments investing more and more in rail if they want cleaner air?
Nothing adds up when it comes to Musk.
I found the concrete barrier they used in the demo it's made by a company called California barricade they are the 10 foot ones. 3900 lbs each they hauled 11 of them. Payload is 42900 lbs.... no need to extrapalate unknowns. Also worth mention that regulations in America alow 2000lb increase in the weight limit of the truck when it is an electric semi. Electric cost vs fuel cost being about 4x!!! cheaper... an effective loss of 2500ish lbs payload when considering US regulations. 500 mile range, if max load, most trucks do not run at max load very often... In your example a frito lays loaded truck fully loaded with snacks would have a 10,000lb to 12,000lb load, obviously no where near fully capacity... its likely to have a far greater range at that light of load. Maybe even make that snack run in your example. It's looking like maybe batman riddled it, if you ask Me.
Then why did Musk not state the weight of the rig, the max load, and the demo load in the presentation?
@Stephen Taylor idk, but I would guess at this point Tesla isn't making a large volume of the semi. Pepsi and fritolay will buy what they make to try out. If they like the truck then I would say it's likely we will see a more in depth product showing when it's more avaliable in lage quantities... I'm guessing here, but that's what I would do.
@@kevman0111 I see another YTber has done a more rigorous analysis of the economics and concluded that on a best scenario basis they might be economically feasible, perhaps, but only under certain local delivery situations. But even then, the battery lifetime compared to diesel engines and environmental impact of lithium-ion batteries were not taken into account. I remain dubious about EVs as a whole, not just this truck.
@Stephen Taylor I can understand doubts lingering on, but the real world data just doesn't show it. Pouch cell Batteries are shit, and any manufacturer using those will be bankrupt in less than a decade, but prismatic and cylinder cell Batteries have gotten to insane cycle life at this point, and are still getting better. 4000 cycle life expectancy, currently. Charged to flat and charged again is one cycle. Cycle life is greatly extended if not ran flat, but instead charge back from say 40% state of charge. So real world, let's say the tesla semi gets 500 mile range and has a demanding route that takes the battery to 0% every day. You could expect 2,000,000 miles on that vehicle before the battery would likely see a failure, as good as any current life cycle of diesel engines. Sure, some go more, but many have problems far before that. Then remember that many of these trucks will not see that demanding of a route since the average semi driver puts on 175 miles a day (in the US). Then you may have 3,000,000 mile life expectancy. 15 to 20 year lifecycle of the battery, and then you put a new one in. And go again.
@@kevman0111 You may well be correct Kev, I really don't know enough about battery technology and how far its progressed. But I recently saw a video about the battery changing technology of Nio, the top Chinese EV maker, and it said the new batteries were only replaced at a 90% charge, precisely to save battery life. The automatic battery changing takes only about 3 minutes to complete. Of course they need the infrastructure to do that which is widely available in China. Seems a good way to go to me to solve the charging problem.
John, have you considered doing your reviews on Twitter. 😉
@Ray Johnson precisely. And on RUclips being pro Tesla gets you kicked off. Who said social media is all about free speech?🤣
As a technician for a power generation company it is quite staggering the amount of fuel we actually burn daily. One of our sites burns over 100,000kg of natural gas every single day. The station isn’t even that big at around 35MW total capacity
The Tesla semi isn't a niche product. It's obviously useless for long haul, but there's still plenty of trucks that run around locally not doing that many ks. Supermarket delivery for example.
As to the payload reduction, it may not be quite that bad. It really depends on how much the electric powertrain weighs compared to the ice one. Large diesel engines and their gearboxes aren't light. I'm sure the electric equivalent isn't either, but maybe it's enough to claw back a few percent.
You'd also have to look at how many of your trucks are actually running around at GVM. I suspect a lot of trucks are limited by volume rather than weight, especially for the around town clown. If that's the case a reduced payload capacity in terms of mass might be pretty inconsequential.
You'd also have to look at any potential savings in servicing and fuel, what the useful lifespan is, infrastructure costs to charge the thing and the possibility of solar to support that and a thousand other things I have no idea about.
I just don't see it as a write-off straight out of the gate. For damn sure it's not an obvious win and you'd want to do the maths rather carefully after some other chump has made the leap of faith that Elon is at least part way telling the truth.
There's obviously a lot of trucks it just can't replace, but even if they can get there as a viable solution for 10% of the market, that's still probably more than they will ever actually produce.
@Ray Johnson IF your rest periods happen to line up with the times the truck needs charging, there's a charger at that location and it's actually available for you to use.
That's way way too many maybes for a trucking company that has significant financial penalties attached to missing a deadline.
The problem is that it has a sleeper, so costs a lot more than a day cab.
@@jeffk464 The Tesla Semi is day cab only
Great video on the subject with all the facts laid out. Instead of Fritos, load up the truck with Pepsi and do another run. That 500 miles could possibly shrink to between 100 miles and 150 miles. Better yet, load it up with beer and see how many 'mericans die of thirst waiting for the beer to arrive. Based upon the facts presented I guess Roadtrains being pulled by a Tesla semi truck will never see the light of day.
@Ray Johnson Have you done your own research? What have you concluded?
The concrete barriers in the test run looked a lot heavier than crisps to me!
They fooled another one!
I've always said, that EV is nice for inner-city travel. Could also work for short-trip hauling (maybe). Over long distances, I hope we transition more and more from road to rail in the future. Not only because of the energy and pollution aspects but also road-wear. EVs have the same problem, that hydrogen vehicles have (infrastructure) but on top of that, they have the added problems of weight, batteries and charging times.
So rail + maybe hydro for long-haul and EV for short and inner-city routs?
Yeah nah.
Still wouldn't be effective for Australia's transport needs.
We don't have the rail infrastructure or freight to make that remotely possible.
Add to that there remains the need for long haul trucking, even to and fro from rail sidings.
The other important factor is that most trains use diesel/ generator locomotives plus the electricity has to be sourced from somewhere and renewables simply cannot cope with current electricity requirements.
@@matildastanford7019 ☀️ energi
Can not do trains in America. That is illegal. People own land and they do not have to sell it. For any price.
@@adastra8218 the ammount of energy required to power just one train, especially a freight train and including multi combination heavy vehicles, is unbelieveably staggering. Do the math please.
Add to that what about night time? or cloudy, rainy days when solar isn't producing anything?
Solar PECs are great in some aspects but are extremely limited in the power density required and operational conditions.
@@davidbeppler3032 What do you mean? Ever heard of eminent domain?
Engine reliability is much better than an ice engine. parts count and complexity reduced substantially. Also, regen braking improves mileage. Not saying you're wrong about the things you mentioned, but there are benefits to electric motors vs ice.
G'day John,
I'm an interstate driver (Bris to Syd) and drive a 2019 Volvo FH16 Globetrotter towing B/Doubles and more often than not carry the maximum legal weight of 62.5 tonnes. Your analysis of the US Tesla Semi at 36.7 was very interesting and left me to conclude that it or just about any other electric vehicle proposal for my application simply won't work, it in fact would need a total reconfiguration of heavy vehicle legislation just to accommodate these type of vehicles. I'd be interested to know what your calculations flush out regarding the potential weight of a Tesla Semi pulling this weight would be (my Volvo weighs 10.4 tonnes fully fuelled), so in my example trailers and freight equal 50.1 tonnes. Also as a matter of interest, a small issue are tyres. I have Bridgestone R150, 295/80 on 22.5 inch rims which a maximum load capacity of 3550kg, no doubt there would have to be special 'Tesla' tyres as well.
Most Interstate trucks that run between our capitals are B/Doubles and combinations and weights are only increasing.
I'd be very interested to hear what you calculations are with such a B/Double example as this.
Love your show, I listen a lot via Podcasts (apologies in advance for below average grammar)
Regards,
Marc.H
The battery of the Semi is about 900kWh, by taking a very classic 250Wh/kg energy density, the battery "only" weighs 3600kg.
Considering that the electric motors are much more lighter than a big diesel engine/transmission combo, I think that the truck will not be much more heavier than a comparable diesel truck.
JC, reckon you can add some of your famous ball park figures for EV motors vs comparable sized diesel engines that might be present? I know in the cars (say a Tesla Model S vs a BMW M5) they're roughly 1/4 to 1/5 of the weight.
Also, I'd suggest the main issue for long haul trucks in Straya is less the distance, and more so the infrastructure (Coffs and Gundagai are going to need their own power stations!). Mainly due to truck drivers supposed to stop for min 30min over that travel time (whether they do or not is a different topic).
If you are just comparing the weight of the electric drive motor to the ICE of the BMW then the electric motor would be lighter but not near enough to compensate for the weight of the battery the car has. The gross vehicle mass of all EVs when compared to the same vehicle in ICE form is higher.
@@alistairshanks5099 oh yeah definitely. Just thinking about the drive train components without the batteries. JC was happy to add battery weight to a standard "tractor" or prime mover, but neglected to remove considerable weight for the ICE drive train. The BEV system, including batteries, will still be heavier, but guessing he could remove nearly half a Hilux in his calculations to compensate the loss of ICE drive train. Maybe he did and didn't mention it...
I couldn't find details on engine & drive train weight for an appropriate sized big Mack but I'm guessing it's considerably heavier than it's EV counter parts as it is in the cars.
@Terry Orzechowski I'm assuming that each motor weighs more than a football?
@@julienrudd7545 they weigh 45kg each plus the inverter
Enjoyed your view on the tesla semi, I think in order to move to electricity there will need to be some changes in the way we move cargo over long distances. These changes on their face value may be initially cost prohibitive but will improve over the long term. History is littered with examples of technological changes which initially were not the wisest, I however agree with the spin going on for this truck but again as history has proven many times you need to get the masses excited for any type of significant change to occur. BTW your channel is one of my regulars, keep up the good work!
Why would I take notice of your comment when you don't even know how to spell 'their'
@@normancrew2739 You often have trouble seeing the forest for the trees?
@@normancrew2739there there Norman. Don’t let the gravity of the situation get you down. They’re going to have their opinions.👍🏽
Sorry mate I was really hoping you would have some good points but your assumptions are way off. Ignoring the fact that EV trucks get an extra 2k pounds of GVM in the states, your assumption that the Tesla semi weighs 5 metric tonnes more than a comparable ICE truck isn’t accurate. Yes the battery might weigh 5 tonnes, but there’s no ICE, no exhaust manifold, significantly less (if any? I’m not sure) oil, also no liquid fuel to carry around. From what I’ve seen, the Tesla semi weighs 3000 pounds more than an equivalent ICE truck, making its maximum allowable payload around 1000 pounds less (around 460kg)
Which is trivial at most. In fact any actual company with a fleet of trucks would rather by a few more electric trucks if needed to offset the theoretical advantage of carrying a few extra K under max load in a painfully slow barge that can't even go down the grape vine (San Fran to LA) without completely burning out its brakes.
They are saving the cost of the truck on much lower fuel costs which is the point.
Even hugely inefficient diesel rigs under max load often turn right around and drive 100's of miles back to point of origin under no load - purely wasting $$$$ - since it's the aerodynamic drag + cost of diesel fuel that is such a *physics and financial disaster.*
If Elon can make these things in numbers they will fly out of the factory and get snapped up by any real business that has actual accountants. As this puts money back in their pockets.
I feel the weight of the truck calf might be off.
The batteries will weigh a lot but you need to offset that against a heavy motor, drive train, fuel tanks etc
I don’t think it will be as big as a gap as you have said, time will tell.
All fair enough but you forgot to factor in the 1.5 tonne Diesel engine and the two tonnes of diesel fuel that aren’t in an EV truck. It doesn’t bring them level, but it does make them closer. 5 tonnes of battery less 3.5 tonnes of fuel and ICE equals a 1.5 tonne reduction in payload, not 5 tonne reduction.
The EV motors would easily match the diesel engine.
What size truck are you talking? A semi diesel engine and gearbox combo is around 600-650, maybe 700kg with the clutch as well and 400 litres of diesel (enough for 800km) weighs around 350Kg so that works out to at least a 4 tonne reduction in payload as well as the electric motors themselves would easily be another half a tonne (telsla car motors are 50Kg each with 2-3 requried in a car, how many in the truck?) so back to a 4.5 tonne reduction by my maths.
Either way, it was a HUGE oversight not to factor in/out ICE, gearbox, fuel, EV motors etc.
Excellent breakdown of the glaring issues with the Tesla big rigs. They are not even available anyway despite Musk promising them years ago. I just watched a Thunderf00t analysis of the same problems and he cuts through to the quick just as you do.
@JJ Mac Thunderf00t is no a reliable source of information, especially when it comes to Tesla. I watched the video, he spends more time making jokes than providing information.
If you really want a detailed analysis of the Tesla Semi watch the RUclips video: "Does The Tesla Semi Make Any Sense? on Engineering Explained.
I think TF has been dealing with scammers for too long while I agree Musk himself is liable to play fast and loose with the truth I think the engineers at Tesla are basically genuine (and worried about getting caught lying unlike Musk they don’t have stupid amounts of money to spend on law teams and senators etc.)
I agree with TF and John that it is not really a competitive interstate truck however unless they have really screwed up it should be competitive for short haul jobs around a city where smaller trucks are traditionally used (provided it can fit in the loading bays).
They have the resources to make the semis at a reasonable pace (except for batteries who they are struggling with) but they took a heck of a lot of preorders so it could take ages just to cover a significant number of them.
I can see reliably being a problem given Tesla’s track record with the much much smaller cars.
The complete lack of any mention of autonomous features even as simple as crash avoidance could indicate they had to do some serious cost cutting to make it for the advertised price rather than TF’s idea that they couldn’t get it working in the much larger vehicle.
Because it is actually competing load for load with much smaller trucks the semi can’t cost as much as a diesel semi with a batter premium it has to cost less than a diesel semi.
John (same as Thunderf00t) should have also stressed he purposely used numbers significantly worse than actual.
aka Tesla Semi runs at 1.7kWh/mi efficiency. aka 11 std 10ft Jersey Barriers are shown to be hauled, which equates to at least 44,000 lbs of cargo aka Tesla is already using batteries of 280Wh/kg, NOT 180-200
They constantly uses wrong numbers in his napkin math, then calls people who see the value of Tesla “cult members”. It’s honestly disgusting
He is not the messiah and he is not a very naughty boy either 😂😂😂
Regarding the weight of the prime mover, weather it be fossil or battery it has to be heavy and well pinned to the road to counteract the trailer that wants to go somewhere else. If you add the weight of the battery and subtract the weight of engine, gearbox and fuel the electric prime mover would be heavier meaning less payload. I think your sums are not bad.
Interesting video. You added the 5T for the battery but didn’t remove some weight to account for a lighter electric drive train. Anyway, I think the bigger problem with the Tesla Semi will be purchase price and as electricity prices rise it will take a long time to realize savings.
But what if prices drop? Shock, horror!
The bigger problem is not getting the full story so that people can do real-life calculations and work out for themselves if the Tesla semi makes financial sense.
Smoke and Mirror presentations are fine, but if the first truck that is delivered exposes the presentation as a fraud it is difficult to recover from that.
Requiring a electricity sub-station in order to deliver almost acceptable recharging times is not practical even for most depots let alone en-route service stations.
In the presentation Tesla were planning for the first batch of delivered Tesla-semis not to go to those companies like Pepsi that are on the waiting list and wanting to pay good money, but apart from a single token truck delivered to Pepsi, the rest will go to Tesla's internal fleet of trucks, does anyone want to justify the logic of that business decision?
Don't forget to consider the reduced maintenance (including brake pads) and longevity of an electric motor vs diesel motor, an EV powertrain is more reliable and significantly less costly over time.
@@ER-ws2pb A lot is made of the reduced maintenance of EV's over ICE, but I'm not sure that these days it is such an advantage.
Modern cars are generally serviced every 20,000 miles, brake pads lasts many years, and engines are often good for 150,000+ miles.
If modern cars do fail, it is just as likely to be an electrical problem 1or somthing else that is and EV's and ICE all have similar suspension, steering and lights.
One reason that Tesla may have decided to use the Tesla-semi for their own internal haulage needs ahead of those paying customers on the waiting list might just be that they are currently proving to be too unreliable to offer them to customers.
On paper hydrogen offers a far better fit to long haul semis than battery.
@@gregbailey45 Exactly. Australians of all peoples should be looking at that big fusion furnace in the sky and ask how it can work FOR them.
This John fellow is a relic.
Be interesting to see the comparison of diesel/electricity charge costs as well. Has to be part of the due diligence process surely.
You also need to factor in the initial purchase cost and the expected lifetime of the vehicle. And battery capacity will reduce over time.
Car Expert a Auto Magazine here in Aus done a Road trip test between a TD Audi and a Kia EV from Adelaide to Sydney so around 1400 kilometres, the Kia came out on top by about $5 (about $130 vs $135) but required a a ton more stopping and if I remember correctly the cost of filling up didn't include the Free fill up at their accommodation
Important to remember it's not all about cost comparison but more about CO2 emissions.
Time is money, due diligence needs to factor in the extra time the driver(s) have to be paid every 600km or so (not 800km to account for hills, headwinds and other contingencies) while waiting to charge which will narrow the gap as well. Also I cant see the rural power grid handling long haul EV for some time. I am all for EV semis in urban areas, they are well suited but dont expect to see them crossing the Nullabor any time soon.
@@J-P88 I read that same article, with the cost of the diesel v electrons being about the same there is no economic case in my mind for the EV's extra cost to purchase. Was impressed with the 4.7l/100km the Audi got and you could do the drive without stopping, although he did supposedly limit his speed to 90km/hr for better economy. Also if I remember correctly the guy said he was averaging about 20kwh/100km which is around .32kwh/mile. I cant see how a truck that is at least 15 times heavier and way less aerodynamic is only using 6-7 times the energy of the car. There is lots fishy about the Tesla Trucks promotion..
Maybe the Tesla truck isn't the thing to replace all semis on the road but could be useful on shorter runs around cities, just as electric cars work better for short trips rather than long trips where having to wait around for a re-charge in the middle of the trip would be a pain but plugging in overnight is easy n convenient.
I'm sure your figures are logical and based on the facts you can surmise but we won't really know until the trucks are out in the hands of the public who can report on their real-world experience and if they make no commercial sense they obviously will not sell and be a commercial failure but Tesla and Musk have a pretty good track record of producing innovative products people want and will pay big bucks for even if they aren't perfect, so I'll wait before making a judgment myself. Gotta say though, you do seem very anti-Musk, is this just about the truck or do u not like his cars either? As an engineer, I'd have thought you'd like the reusable rocket tech, Starlink satellite system etc.
There's a difference between a rich dude buying a Tesla car and a business buying a work truck.
Seriously, having a meal stop every few hours to get at least 50% recharge is a problem?
here is the order of things I would look for in a truck 1 price of truck (cost of truck + repair cost) 2 max load the truck can haul (weight of goods not truck weight) 3 down time (refuel + repair time).
My guess is John is probably half right and they're not quite where they want to be yet. They may be expecting to achieve the following by early next year:
1.7 kWh/mile (maybe 1.65 if they can eek out more efficiencies?)
250 Wh/kg average for 4680 cell when combined with structural pack (they're already at ~270 Wh/kg at the cell level and those cells are very good at providing structural rigidity)
538 miles not all usable range (based on full gross capacity of battery as we saw in video: 97% - 4% SOC got them 500 miles, so likely this was engineering gross capacity and they can't use top/bottom buffer)
538 mi × 1.7 kWh/mi = 914 kWh battery pack
(If they achieve 1.65 kWh/mi then 887 kWh battery pack)
914 ÷ 0.25 kWh/kg = ~ 3.75 tonnes
(887 ÷ 0.25 = 3.55 tonnes)
Plus the 3x motors and fixed gearboxes, electronics, cooling system and coolant. Could be looking at 4.1-4.3 tonnes to fully replace the combustion diesel engine, gearbox, transmission, fuel tank, engine coolant system, exhaust system (plus adblue) and not forgetting the initial few hundred kg of diesel fuel.
I think John may be well placed to estimate the weight of all these legacy components so we can do a proper comparison.
Hi John the Electric Viking did mention that the GVW of an eletric truck is allowed to be a bit higher in the USA also he claimed tha the Tractor Unit wheighed the same as a diesel version.If he is correct you figures might need adjusting..Brilliant video as usual Thank You
Yeah i watched that video too and that shit was just random bs not actual info from anywhere and yeah they have an extra 2000lbs(900kg), the weight i found for a truck engine was about 1300kg fuel for that distance is about 260kg and because idk but to make it easy 900kg for the trans giving about 2500kg so with that plus the additional 900 extra for EVs your at 3400kg. So even then the battery is 1600kg to 2200kg heavier and you still have 3 motors, and all the electronics which wouldn't be small for that kind of power and finally the battery size is wrong 1000kwh to travel the distance is correct but you can't run lithium batteries flat so the capacity would need to be bigger for a safety margin
Great video John, as always. This being a first step to electric haulage, its never going to be everything we could hope for, especially with the limited range and heavy charging requirements.
I imagine that Tesla will be trying/applying to install solar/battery power plants in close proximity to popular Truck stops at the midpoint of long hauls as upgrading existing infrastructure would seem to be a non starter. We should also probably look at a couple of the benefits of electric Semi Trailers. Those being , no diesel particulate pollution, no noise pollution from engine braking as well as the reduced reliance on brakes on long downhill grades, so I guess they might be a bit safer? I know you aren't a fan of Electric Jesus but he is making an effort at least.
I'd be really interested to see what you reckon in comparison to Mercedes Benz electric trucks or any other company that could compete with what Tesla Semi is offering. Cheers
Remember 500 miles wasn't even supposed to be achievable. The goal post just keep getting moved.
@@erikmoore7402 OK, who said that?
Of course its achievable, I doubt achievable was ever a goal post for anyone in the trucking industry. They care about how much money they can make.
@@stusue9733 you're right, it's an industry, not a hobby after all.
@@erikmoore7402 If you stick a big enough battery in then almost any range is achievable. Obviously there is a point where the size and weight of that battery negates any extended range benefit.
@@robsengahay5614 yet the truck exists for sale. 🤷♂️
Thanks for putting the Tesla Semi (they call them that in Murica too - Horses in Zimbabwe, dudes). Even with the payload difference I think this semi is a good start. I don’t expect rapid adoption and particularly like your points about infrastructure. I like the apparent power of the Tesla going up hill from the publicity video and that the energy is partially recouped on the way down the other side of the hill. So contra the green enthusiasts I’m happy to see hydrogen as an alternative and diesel continue because I know producing batteries has a large environmental cost. Still it looks like The Elon has produced an impressive prototype, not a generally viable production vehicle.
ruclips.net/video/hzs0QeIvDLg/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/o3dCDNIRM34/видео.html
You do realise that producing and transporting hydrogen is ridiculously inefficient ?
Also where are all those precious metals going to come from for the fuel cells ?
@@fransdebruijn6763 transportation of hydrogen is already a thing in California. Or hydrogen can be produced at each station. What precious metals are you taking about ? The same precious metals that are needed to produce the current Engines. Dude please do more research. Your arguments have no facts to back them up. Electrical vehicles work best for short distances. Think of golf carts, delivery vans in a city, that kind of application. Oil will still be pumping 40 years from now.
@@philc824 The production and storage of hydrogen is extremely energy inefficient (compared to batteries) to the point of making diesel look good.
In Germany, they are rolling out powered roads that power trucks externally from the grid. There are 2 methods; 1. overhead power lines like used for trains, and 2. Induction power supply built into the road.
That's a good method of delivering power in a densely populated country like Germany, but I doubt it working well in Australia or the western US.
In USA electric trucks will be allowed extra 2 tons of weight.
Also the battery does not charge linearly. More empty it is, faster it will charge and as it gets full the charge goes in slower and slower.
We are taking about a lot of electricity but that will come through vires. Diesel has to be trucked from fueling station to fueling station.
Finally electric motor is somewhat lighter then diesel and doesn't require transmission which somewhat offsets the weight of the battery.
I believe the extra allowance for EV semis is 2,000 Ibs or 1 ton. For the other issues you raised see Johns subsequent video.
Hey Johm, a few thoughts: First when you estimate the weight of the empty semi, you have to take into account the weight of the fuel that won't be in the vehicle and that the mechanical parts are very likelly be lighter than a diesel engine with all the extara parts it needs. My guess is that it would be heavier than a normal diesel tractor, but not by the margin you calculated. As for the range, say 800 KM... Not all routes will require maximum range. But even for the ones that do, the driver has to take breaks sometimes to eat, go to the bathroom, stretch his legs and so on. So even if he only does one stop midway to eat and all, that is a good time to to off the battery and increase the range. The question is, will the lower cost of electricity compared to diesel compensate for what ever reduction in payload the Tesla can carry. It's a new product, it can only improve over time. As for hydrogen, I remember a few years back they wanted to go with natural gaz as an alternative.... any idea if that went anywhere?
This junior high drop out really has no idea how oblivious he is, it's pathetic that he took time to make this video and talk out his butt.
@@BenefitOfTheDoubtInquiryyou don’t have to like facts, but they’re still facts.
John. Love your videos. It has always amazed me that long haul trucking has lasted so long. Surely the most efficient way to move goods long distance is via train. I realise that we need to improve the train lines and that there will be a loss of efficiency as we are effectively creating a bottleneck. The roads will need less maintenance, plus it will be safer for road users. I have driven from Perth to the eastern states on several occasions and have no love for the triple trucks. Anyway, I guess we will see where it heads however like most things there are vested interests that will prevent the optimal solution. This planet is dying because of greed.
Former Nationals leader Tim Fischer did a study which at the time showed for every 1500 tonne freight train Sydney to Melbourne saved 45,000 litres of fuel compared to a fleet of trucks carrying the same tonnage. I love truckies and trucks, but still scratch my head at a lost chance to combine the two industries. Would be great to see a load of trailers as well as containers on flat wagons with drivers still employed at each end to pick up and drop off.
@@robertchapman6795 Or just use roll-on, roll-off trains like the Eurotunnel ones - set up for trucks and on their own timetable to allow the best times for arrival and departure based on traffic in the areas. Lets say loading and unloading take an hour each. On an 800km trip lets say it takes the train 8 hours. Thats 10 hours total but the drivers could be taking their sleep time during that trip meaning a full days work before and after.
The trains' speed could be adjusted to make the most of this so lets say a driver needs a 10 hour rest - make the moving part of the train journey around that then the driver gets their rest, the train saves even more fuel and a load less pollution is created. It also removes the long night drives from a lot of routes - generally known to be the most dangerous.
@Terry Orzechowski Wow. I would love to see the research behind those claims. I would be particularly interested in seeing how a train carrying 2000t or so of cargo over 1000km compares in use of the planets resources to the equivalent in payload going by Tesla - since thats what we're talking about here. The bit before and after the train is going to need doing anyway if they both start and end on or near the main highway route so what we're looking at is the energy efficiency of both over that distance - remembering to include transmission of power losses for the train and charging losses for the trucks.
We won't get into batteries vs an electric motor powered directly since batteries create a lot of pollution and have a finite lifespan - where there are electric motors from 100+ years ago still running fine with minimal looking after.
I'm yet to see a warehouse with such poor space utilisation that it allows vehicles to be unloaded inside - where the storage should be - but I guess someone would see that as a plus. Someone who has never had to pay for warehouse space most likely.
Suffice to say when you take 22 rubber tyres and replace that rolling resistance with half a load on one axle of metal to metal the drag is reduced by a huge percentage. The same happens when you take the frontal area of 80 trucks and convert that into one locomotive.
I would appreciate the numbers to show how EJ has managed to overcome physics so overwhelmingly but I won't hold my breath.
@Terry Orzechowski but the warehouse must be very close. Most trains in Europe are electric now. So that’s better than a battery vehicle. Trains lower the highway death/injury toll. To carry 1500 tonnes, you would have to mine much more earth to make enough ev’s compared to trains. Removing trucks from roads makes road maintenance intervals longer
Public roads, that are not toll roads, are a subsidy of trucking vs trains where the company has to maintain its rails instead of the public paying for it. Yes there are taxes on the on fuel in theory to pay for it, but at least in the US the tax is no where near large enough to cover actual costs. Plus public roads serve lots of uses so there are more of them in more places then you ca. build rail lines.
John we all have to be dragged away from our fuel guzzling wagons just like our great Grandpops did when they where told the horse and cart was not up to scratch any more
ruclips.net/video/hzs0QeIvDLg/видео.html
Nope. Everyone lept at the car about as fast as they could afford it, because cars are far superior to horses in almost every way. No maths was required.
Come on guys, you are saying electric truck doesn't work for a trip between two cities so it can't work anywhere?
Not sure what comment I like better - The comparison of Electric Jesus to P.T. Barnum or the line about "...the more bald I got the better I got at growing nose and ear hair".
John I'd be super interested in your take on the Janus Electric project of converting existing trucks to electric and using them on set routes with battery swap stations. Seems to overcome a lot of issues to me and also uses existing trucks that would otherwise have been overhauled with new diesel engines.
Also I'm sure you considered it but you didn't mention what the drive train weight saving might be vs the Tesla battery and motors. I'd love to hear more detail on this.
You really have no idea how much energy abd resources it takes to make these batteries huh? Not to mention charging them with an aging crappy expensive power grid in a country full of uranium
Seems trains would be a better future plan
@@davidfrisken1617 yeah, seems like we should just be moving more of the load to trains and less reliance on long haul trucking.
I don't know anything about the infrastructure challenges with hydrogen.
Alternatively, we set up nuclear power plants all over the place for electric trucks to charge at :)
@@filthyminges You really have no idea! Sure we've got a shit-tonne of uranium but have you ever looked at how long it takes to build nuclear infrastructure? Are you aware of what the costs are to build ir? Are you aware of what the costs are to decommission one? None of these numbers are small. Neither are the resources required to build them.
@@madpuppet666 the problem with EVs in general (besides charging off a dirty grid) is that they still require ever expanding roads and expressways. Trains just need to be electrified, there is still a lot of underutilized capacity on the rails themselves.
1MW charging really is insane! I used to manage a data Center that had 3MW of generator capacity and a 2MW grid connection!
Btw, what’s the weight of a typical diesel power train and fuel tanks (say half full)?
Hi John, There is a company in Australia that has been converting diesel trucks to electric, they seem to have come up with a interesting way to overcome the charging issues. Janus is their name they have a few videos on RUclips.
Janus is the only way ev would work in Australia. But paying an electrician to sit in shed waiting for a truck to come along is going to add to the cost. Not to mention the battery subscription that would need to be set up. And the weight issue. I believe Janus trucks are two ton heavier than diesel. That means less $ earned per load.
@@salem9477 True, Aussies must continue buying their oil from foreign powers while the rest of the world vonverts to electricity. 🤦♂🤦♀
You write the same arguments as the endless diatribes of the petrolheads in Germany. Fact : There will be no more fossil buring monster trucks on our roads anymore in about 10 years from now. And you will adapt and overcome the losses of your oh so precious fossil ressources. As always in human history.
No more deisel in ten years? Lolololol
@@isee7668 You can still continue to go to Russia, Venezuela, Nigeria or Saudi Arabia to get your oh so precious Diesel to fill it in your pint. They will be happy to give you some. Maybe you can even buy a quarter via Amazon? Delivered via electric drone of course…
@@wolfgangpreier9160 from the square brains that pretended that Russian gas was a good idea for a "green Germany .
Sending any electric tanks to help ukraine yet ?
EV Trucks won't be a legitimate concern until Sanjeep gets one stuck under the Montague Street Bridge
Here is the issues with your analysis
1) your assumption that the efficiency is 1.9 KWh/ mile could be wrong as Tesla and Elon has tweeted that current efficiency is at 1.7kwh/mile and could potentially reach 1.5 by the time of full scale production. This is the reason why they did not disclose the weight of the truck as it could weigh much less than what it weighs once at full production.
2) If the efficiency is higher then a smaller battery pack could give the 500 mile range, this means less weight from battery pack. This also means charging the battery 75 percent over half hour becomes plausible.
3) your Hilux analogy is simply wrong because all you did is add the weight of the battery pack to the average weight of a diesel Semi, but in reality electric vehicle engines do not weigh as much as Diesel engines No fuel tank and not many parts at all. So GVM could be much less than wht you have estimated.
What you have done here ( knowingly or otherwise ) is to use the higher limit of each variables and assumptions with your calculations so that the end value becomes in favour of your argument
If you use more precise numbers the calculations and results are very close to what Tesla is claiming.
The specs on the semi have finally been leaked. It weighs 13 tons or 26,0000 pounds. What percentage is that of the GVW of 82,000 pounds? Come on John, do the math, put it on a piece of paper for everyone to see... and then eat it.
Ha Ha Ha !! laughed my un-manscaped balls off....Thanks. 40 years driving semis in Oz, and that has to be the funniest, fact filled and visually dynamic takedown of BS EV heavy vehicles ever, and all done with a smile and felt pen. 😁
I can only see 1-2 scenarios where an EV truck could possibly work. Hauling wet mix concrete in urban traffic or maybe a tipper. Even these would be under very limited conditions. However, nobody in their right mind would spend that sort of cash on a truck to haul concrete.
Bazz, buzz ya balls!
Tesla Semi is also estimated to weigh about 13.5 tons, because it pulled 11 jersey barriers which is about 22 tons, on a flatbed about 5 tons. Total weight was reported to be 40.5 tons.
Size and weight of the battery is probably less then your estimate. Teslas cars go further than competition on a smaller battery, because their motors are more efficient, and battery assembled differently (structural pack).
Hopefully, soon we won't need any more estimations.
Erm...... The Tesla truck is not necessarily 5 tonnes heavier than the ICE vehicle. You have to remove the weight of that socking great diesel engine, gearbox, and differential which will weigh substantially more than the electric motors and adjust accordingly. The difference could then be as little as 3 tonnes
Hearing more crickets, John. LOL.
If all were electric, you'd need a nuclear reactor of 1000MW capacity just to run a decent truck/auto stop.