What do you guys think? Do you like the idea of the three timelines or would you prefer it was all just one? What are your thoughts on Strange New Worlds? Please consider checking out our sponsor Dave.com/popcast if you need financial help and consider becoming a Member by clicking JOIN above. We do a Member's live Stream every Thursday and it is a lot of fun!
Hi Dave, I don't have a problem with Discovery/Strange New Worlds being considered canon as long as it is established that it isn't so much set in an alternate TIMELINE but in an alternate UNIVERSE where Klingons DIDN'T lose their forehead ridges to an augment virus in their 22nd Century and the 23rd Century Constitution Class design was more advanced than the Galaxy, Sovereign and Intrepid Class Starships of the PRIME Universe 24th Century, and let's face it, the Discovery AND SNW Enterprise are FAR more advanced looking, at least their interiors are. In the CW DC Universe saga "Crisis on Infinite Earths," Tyler Heochlin's Superman encountered his Brandon Routh and Tom Welling counterparts in different Universes, two Supermen with different faces to his own. In the recent "The Flash" movie, Ezra Miller's Flash encounters firstly the Bruce Wayne/Batman of his own Universe, the Ben Affleck version. When he is thrown into an alternate universe, he encounters the Batman of that Universe, Michael Keaton's version, and finally when he returns to what he believes is his OWN universe, he finds that he has instead landed in one where George CLOONEY is Batman. Same with the "Spiderman: No Way Home" movie where Tom Holland's Spiderman encounters his counterparts with different faces from different Universes, Toby Maguire and Andrew Garfield. So, as far as I am concerned, Star Trek ALSO has a multiverse with different Kirks, Spocks, Pikes, etc, and THAT is what the Discovery/Strange New Worlds Universe is. NOTHING to do with alternate timelines.
Going by established time travel Trek episodes such as Timeless (ST Voyager) and the rather large time gap, I would consider the 32nd Century seen in ST Discovery a 4th timeline (possible future) as any event occurring in SNW or Legacy could easily change the course of events leading up to there.
@@spartainwarrior6445 Tbh, the different Kirks/Spocks/timelines/universes helps with my head-canon. I can now watch TOS without thinking about all the retcons made in Discovery/SNW.
There have always been an infinite number of possible Star Trek timelines. Consider the TNG episode Parallels. If using an alternate timeline allows you to tell better stories, go for it.
It really depends on one's definition of "better." With the exception of Picard season 3, and SNW, everything trek I've seen since Enterprise was either made with the wrong goals in mind or poorly written, and often both. Even Picard season 3, and SNW retain a few issues that don't fit, but are huge improvements over other recent stuff.
@@haplozetetic9519I would comment about the "huge improvement" part, but for the rest I agree with you, although more than Alternative timelines I always though that potential divergence could be resolved with establishing different alternative reality and then we move on or tried to improve the current series to meet previous quality standard, to me apart from LD which for all its jokes, at least was made by peoplel who know Star Trek canon, the rest of Nutrek doesn't deserve to be considered Canon or at least not the main Canon, also right now to be fair even Prodigy seem to have a different style and atmosphere compare to "Picard" that make me doubt that they are in the same timelines or even ENThas some, minor in my opinion, but still some divergence that divided it from TOS, in fact I always though that in ENT they made an error to not reveal that Daniels work for the 31st century version of Section 31 and that he has in fact actively change the timelines multiple times in order to create a more stronger Federation in Section 31 mind, after all don't you think starnge that for all their technologies Daniels doesn't actively help Archer and his crew but, it seem far more willing to use them as basically "pawn" in the Temporal War?
Just an FYI, I am told by a good friend of mine, that in the novelization (audiobook version) of the original Chris Pine “Star Trek” 2009 Reboot, the reason certain characters met up with each other (I think Scotty and Kirk on the ice moon/planet) was “because the timeline was trying to correct itself.” (On the idea that “This is a *totally* new concept for Star Trek.”-10:05) Thanks and love your stuff.
Oddly I've still never seen anyone mention the xindi... Even the new shows that say Archer existed and so did the original Enterprise still never mention that earth was nearly wiped out...
Agreed. Enterprise especially dealt with some issues that never were mentioned before. The Suliban terrorists, the temporal cold war, the Xindi, the Sphere Builders, Earth at the brink of destruction as you have mentioned. Remember, when in Voyager the Hirogen went through the violent history of Earth and Mankind and jumped from the third World War directly to larger, interstellar conflicts? I guess they must have just overlooked the Xindi incident... Enterprise went through a lot of never established drama, but skipped the established events, like the Human/Romulan war. It was about to begin when the series was finally cancelled. But this would have been more interesting from a lore standpoint, than everything else, they did. So, of course, when Enterprise came out it rubbed me all wrong. I felt back then like many people feel about Discovery and Nu Trek nowadays. But I never explained it away as not being canon or another timeline. I just figured that out of universe, there were many bad decisions and in-universe it was a weird "We don't talk about this anymore" issue. The worst part for me was, that the producers said, they prefered a prequel over a sequel, so they don't get tied down by years of established lore. Which was nonsense, of course. A sequel doesn't tie somebody down with established lore, but a prequel most certainly will. You can't destroy the Earth in the past, when the viewer knows it still exists in the future of the franchise. What kind of logic is this? You want to threaten the Earth and make it believable? Do it in a future era, where the outcome of the conflict is unknown. Do it in the past and either the viewer will already know the outcome, detracting from the dramatic effect, or you violate the established lore, which the viewer might not like at all. A prequel is even more binding than a sequel, so the series certainly didn't work well for me. Also the focus on the crew as the inventors of mostly everything seen on the other shows before, from the red alert, to better transporters, to forcefields, all this seemed to be a bit too much. Like all geniuses the Earth had to offer were already on board of the Enterprise and there were no other inventors left. It felt forced. So, while I didn't like prequels because of these very reasons and wasn't fond of the Kelvin Timeline either (I watched it, I found it to be entertaining, but it wasn't the timeline I grew up with, I loved and cared for), I still accepted it to be in some way, shape or form canon. I wish people would do so nowadays with all the new shows as well. I only see one additional problem and I know, it's almost blasphemous to say this, but out of all shows TOS stands out of the franchise as a rusty nail, when it comes to the look and feel of the franchise. TOS doesn't resemble a more technologically advanced future and any show set in the same era kinda struggles with exactly this issue. One solution would be to simply refrain from doing prequels and to return to the "future", continuing to explore how stuff evolved since we last saw them, instead of trying to retell stories of days gone by. Another, most likely universally hated solution would be to slowly overwrite the TOS era with a more modernized look and feel. This only would work with a new timeline though. But then again, a new timeline might not stop at TOS, but might also overwrite TNG, DS9 and Voyager. So it's far from being an optimal solution, maybe it's really just best to let the past be the past and just return to the late 24th or early 25th century. Despite me not liking prequels in general, I'll make an exception for SNW though. It's the first prequel show I actually like. But I hope Star Trek producers don't make a habit of churning out prequels.
Xindi had been around from the early books, and Enterprise was NX-01 n9ot 1701, and dealt with issues newly created, not to destroy canon but support it.
@@nextlevelenglish5858 While that may be so, Prodigy is still one of the modern shows produced after Enterprise was produced, so of course the "Xindi" are a known (multi-)species by now. I however spoke of all the other old shows set after "Enterprise" like TNG, DS9 and Voyager. The Xindi didn't exist in the lore of those shows back then and were never once mentioned when catastrophic events in human history were mentioned. That they now retroactively get added in new shows doesn't change the fact that the show Enterprise first introduced a bunch of anachronisms that weren't really part of Star Trek's timeline at that point and didn't fit in neatly, unless explained away with some kind of temporal shenanigans.
I was afraid of this TBH. I feel that they just want to do this so they can be different and do what they desire without staying true to tradition and what came before.
Exactly... They dont give a shit about what the franchise was built on... They just want to create whatever the hell they want and slap the Star Trek name on it and expect the fans to eat it up.
You don't need to be afraid because the entire premise of this RUclips video is false. The whole "third timeline" thing is, despite the video title, not official, not acknowledged, and not canon. The official stance is that there's just the prime timeline and Kelvin timeline. This video takes retcons and tries to argue they represent new timelines, but the examples given (like SNW pushing Khan forward) is hardly new. DS9 traveled to 2024, no Khan or eugenics wars. Voyager traveled to 1996, no Khan or eugenics wars. Star Trek 4 traveled to 1986, no sign of an impending eugenics war. Star Trek has been retconning itself since the original series, and it's silly to argue that every single time travel episode (of which there are nearly 50) created an alternate timeline. Strange New Worlds was simply trying to provide an in-universe explanation for why the original 1992 date kept getting pushed back.
@@johntetreaultI’ve been saying NuTrek is a different timeline since the end of STD S1. It was obvious the marketing was using JJ’s slight of hand in his film to imply the divergent Kelvin timeline originated from what came to be known as the Prime timeline, from which Spock played by Nimoy emerged… just one problem… At the time of making that film, JJ wasn’t allowed to use the Classic Spock from the Classic timeline spanning the decades between TOS to ENT. Thus JJ created the Prime timeline, and as he admitted through the conversation between Spock and Spock at the end of the film… “Oh, I… implied” where on he refers to a conversation between himself and Kelvin Kirk that did not happen… that implying a thing meant Kirk and by extension the audience filled in the blanks without hard proof, or verbal confirmation of was actually happening. Thus people believed Prime to be Classic canon when it was not. Prime was just a timeline yet to be invented that began when STD aired its first season, when the split rights negotiations to move a trek under one production roof were still ongoing. It was later those rights came together under Secret Hideout but by then they had made Prime alternate continuity and were actively pushing away anyone from the scriptwriting team scriptwriters who might accidentally make NuTrek feel like Star Trek because they needed to build a new Trek brand for a new generation. They presented an alt continuity but refused to admit it in hopes of keeping the old fans aboard… because like Dr Who they knew… even if you aren’t catering to the old fans, their watch time still counts on streaming analysis so they would not actively chase them away in marketing. But the mask slipped years ago, and now with 15 seasons of NuTrek to it name people have more than enough evidence to see NuTrek is not only alt continuity… but in something I did not expect… many of their series don’t even line up with their own continuity, making Kurtzmans ‘multiple universes, same character’ Countdown comic the smoking gun of how he intended to approach his NuTrek.
Star Trek didn’t need new timelines. It needed writers who can write in the original cannon. There’s still much to write about. For an example, the missing era.
Agree. There is a lot left to explore. Just need writers who can write good or better science fiction and a showrunner/producers permit them to do it. It would be hugely beneficial if the latter persons show respect towards Roddenberry, Berman and the work of their writers and drop their arrogance🙂.
I’d love to see the life and times of enterprises b and c. Heck we already have the launch and first mission of the B from star trek Generations. If we need to replace the captain then have him killed off by an eps conduit explosion that overloaded and took him out on his way back to the bridge. But i swear, the tech and styling of everything had damn well better match the era.
All very true , but the "Multi-Verse TIMELINES" Theory encourages DIRECT STORY DEVELOPMENT in _each- , as _long_ as each timeline's Cannon is preserved and no more "NEW TIMELINE" excuses for BAD WRITING following EQUALLY BAD *VISION* .
If we get down to the bones of this conversation, there are several timelines (possibly hundreds). I can hang this on one episode in ST:TNG. In the episode “Parallels” Worf moves through a fissure that causes him to phase between alternate versions of his reality. Each of these phases, could very well be separate timelines. If this is true, we know for sure that each phase constitutes a different timeline. When the attempt to correct this problem goes awry, seemingly hundreds of alternate Enterprises were pulled into that current timeline through the fissure. They had different histories. This is canonically factual since TNG is canon. It may be theorized that correcting this event would destroy the other timelines, but I find that unlikely since that crew, with Captain Riker was willing to do it. I doubt they would consider suicide of their own existence, to help Worf get to one the one they knew little about. Consider this: this truth means even our reality, our timeline, is a canonical part of the series, as we’re still waiting for a Kirk or Picard, in our timeline the show is changing our world, as if Starfleet sent the idea back from a different future. We are a part of the show.
Every Star Trek series has its own continuity. That's why the 1990s described in TOS is different from the 1990s we see in Voyager. That's why the Eugenics Wars happen in different centuries in TOS and DS9.
With all of the time stuff that happened in Voyager, my Dad and I believe that the Voyager by the end of the show is probably not the same one as the one from the beginning.
I lived through the Golden age of Trek 1987 to 2005. I'm grateful for any new Trek stories regardless of the timeliness. I love TOS, TNG, DS9, Voy, ENT, Dis, SNW, LD, Pic, and will love Legacy. We are on the path to the new Star Trek Century. Let's enjoy the ride.
Growing up with TOS, I always find the inconsistencies jarring - T'Pring showing up in SNW when no one knew her in TOS as well as all the other changes. What I don't understand is why they had to go back before the time of TOS for a new series. I would have loved to have seen the ramifications of questions left over from TOS. For example, in "Plato's Stepchildren" in TOS, humans can have telekinetic powers. I wanted to see how that was addressed following that episode. I am sure Section 31 would be interested. Holding opposing ships in place with your mind would have been helpful in the Dominion War. Why wasn't it used? So many things from TOS could have been a jumping off point for episodes in another series following the timeline, and yet before TNG. Instead that had to go back before and start retconning/a new timeline.
One can argue quite confidently that the original timeline actually branched when the first predictive event in STOS did not occur in OUR reality… All of Star Trek takes place universes that we simply do not occupy unless current events happen in future past…. That said, just enjoy the art and focus less on inconsequential/irrelevant concerns. Lastly, predatory lenders (the sponsor) are worse than Ceti-eels…
I trhink the reason why spock is emotional is because in the cage he smiles, but its stated before that vulcans do have emotions they just choose to supress and hide it because it caused a nuclear war that almost destroyed valcan, I think Romulans are the Vulcans that did not want to supress their emotions.
They could say that Lower Decks is in the original timeline by later finding out that because of the branching timelines, the time portal that Boimler and Mariner cross connected to the alternate timeline and anything they did wouldn't affect their own branch. The Orion and Tendi ancestor connection could just be how it happened in both branches.
Lower Decks belongs in the new timeline called the Red Angel Suit Universe with information provided by a time traveler who has interest in historical media.
hehe Im tottaly onboard with that since i too am neutral with that while respecting both the trek lore and all trek timelines that are seperate from both the Kelvin and Prime Timelines and operate in their own ways .
Burnham committed mutiny, but didn't start the war. She was going to fire, yet was stopped by Capt Georgiou. The Klingons fired first. They started the war.
Aye. Burnham starting the war is a misconception… but what isn’t is… she actively prevented the war ending on the day it started by turning the Klingon responsible into a martyr. Burnham says it herself. Kill him and the war won’t stop. Yet she kills him, taking a hot second to flick her phaser to kill. That implies intent instead of heat of the moment. Heat of the moment would be hitting the trigger, perhaps multiple times. The case can be made that Burnham actively wanted Starfleet at war with the Klingons and when she saw the opportunity, took every step to provoke one, but was thwarted by her Captain. Knowing she would prevent an all out war at any cost, and having lost her Captains trust, Burnham manipulated the situation so they she and her Captain would transport alone to the Klingon ship, where with no witnesses Burnham was free to carry out her plan that involved the death of her Captain who could have stopped her killing the Klingon. Once that obstacle was out of the way, and with no one who could personally sway the court system, Burnham killed the Klingon, locking Starfleet and the Klingons into war while she as the only witness could manipulate the information at her hearing to remove herself from the front lines to the relative safety of prison where she could plot her next move. Her motivation was ofc the death of her parents and her own death before Sarek returned her to life by using a hithertoo unknown secret vulcan mind voodoo. With a humans desire for revenge and the cold calculating logic calculus, Burnham played the long game. Managing to train herself into a weapon that would both strike at the Klingon Empire, with Starfleet at her spear as she blamed the organisation for her parents demise. Opportunity and malicious resolve hidden behind decades of outward emotional repression allowed her to bypass Vulcan psyche evaluations due to no Vulcan wanting to meld with a human and relying on observations and questioning. But Burnham knew if she was evaluated by a human she might be vulnerable as she lacked the knowledge of humans to be sure she could trick them. Thus to avoid Starfleet psyche evaluations she leveraged Sareks relationship with a Starfleet Captain to accept her Vulcan science training as a substitute for academy tuition. Having gotten past the screening test could have stopped her plan, Burnham would then take stock of her situation and wait for the perfect opportunity to instigate war between the Federation, and the Klingon Empire.
@@davfree9732 Um... Burnham didn't plot anything. She was just suppressing a lot of anger from Klingon attack that killed her family back then. Nerds are seriously weird... and then wonder why girls don't like them. Jocks are pretty cool.
I see this as an extension of the Temporal Cold War first shown in ENTERPRISE. ENT, the TNG era shows and the TOS films all must exist in this 'new' timeline as well. 1990's Earth is depicated in VOYAGER with no mention of the eugenics wars. The technology shown in the TOS films is more in line with DISCO/SNW as well. What's really interesting is that the date of First Contact (April 5, 2063) never seems to change. It's probably the Federation's temporally most vulnerable point so I'd imagine the era is littered with 30+ century time agents ready to thwart any temporal incursions.
100% agree. SNW characters and settings are simply not in the original timeline. If they'd just say so, the raging would indeed stop and everyone could enjoy it (or not) for what it is.
if you need the writers of a show to tell you if its canon or not for you to enjoy (or not) without being a complete mentally unhinged crazy fan you shouldnt be on the internet
@@leeahlstrom3300 Agreed, if the official statement from paramount of DIS, SNW, and the earlier seasons of PIC are part of a new timeline. Then maybe the wikis wouldn't treat those events are canonical to the original timeline.
I can't agree more. I have refused to watch Discovery because of the insistence that it is in the Prime Universe. But so much of it was not cannon to the Prime. the refusal to admit that it is an alternate universe would solve so much inconsistencies. But the reaction to do that was always a cardinal sin in the franchise.
@@ejwa12 they should've just made it part of the kelvin/lensflareverse instead, and from what i've heard it was originally supposed to be an alternate universe, but because of executive meddling they had to say it's part of the prime one, because the execs were afraid alternate universe wouldn't make them enough money, and they wanted it to ride on prime's coat tails of popularity. there's little developed canon there so many things can be changed around without messing up the original universe, and as a bonus its klingons look the same as discovery's.
Could probably argue the new/prime timeline didn’t start with DSC but Star Trek XI (2009) with Spock Prime showing/explaining what happened in his time that lead to things in the Kelvinverse. If that’s the case then we don’t know anything that’s happened after “Nemesis,” also perhaps the Spock Prime we saw may really be SNW Spock not TOS Spock.
I'd actually like an episode of SNW in season three, where Pine's Kirk finds himself transported to the SNW timeline, from the "height" of Kirk's career JUST before he's promoted to Admiral. And while he, Pike, and the SNW Kirk are all chatting about what to do, Shatner's Kirk steps out of the Nexus to give them some ideas and some insight into all this kind of bizarre shit. I think it would be cool to have Shatner's Kirk and Pine's Kirk meet this version of Pike, and express to him how much of a difference he made, and how much they've each respected him. And then show Pike that they've gone on to be some of the greatest captains in Starfleet because of it. And also a chance to really bind the different Kirks together. Yeah, they're different people because they've had different lives, but Shatner's Kirk could highlight the things that tie them together, that make them this immutable force in every timeline. What makes Kirk someone who changes the fate of the galaxy for the better, on a regular basis. And most of all, highlight why their crews are so important to all of it.
The premise of rewriting Trek to make it try to stay in the future expires pretty fast; I seriously doubt we can bang together a crewed space flight to Europa in less than 16 months.
I actually think La’an was a product of the changed timeline with Khan being born later. Maybe she never existed in the original timeline. Also i thought perhaps the timeline pushing back may actually be the work of the travelers or whatever group Wesley Crusher is a part of.
The addition of La'an was a HUGE red flag for me when they annouced the cast for SNW. It proved what I already suspected: Kurtzman & Co have no ideas. It's just recycled 'memberberries that add nothing and only prove how little they know about writing. FANS DON'T LOVE TWOK BECAUSE OF KHAN! They love it because it's a tightly-written and suspenceful character study about death and aging. It's about something real and meaningful. It's exciting and sad and thrilling all at once. But all these writers see is "Khan is cool, right? You liked Khan, so here's more Khan." Into Darkness made the same basic mistake. TWOK only works because the Enterprise crew is aging - this is clearly and explicitely the entire point of the film. It's not even the subtext - it's the neon-signed theme of the picture. I understood it when I was 12 years old and saw it in the theatre. But Kurtzman, Orci and Abrams somehow missed this- I assume because they don't understand the connection between character and story. It's a good thing nothing Kurtzman has ever done is actually part of Star Trek ...
I think we should have Q fix all the timelines as a sacrificing gesture and goodwill to all kind. Which will allow Star Trek to build a new cast with new territory to explore and new challenges, keeping all LEGACY characters as WAS and erasing bad timelines that create these terrible paradox's, remove current politics out of our shows, write new stories about different ships that make a difference, without hurting LEGACY timelines or stealing core personality traits from Captain Kirk. The foundation of Star Trek is already Paved, let's boldly go where no one or the many has gone before!
I buy the idea that there are three timelines and I am O.K. with that, however another channel I saw also covered this topic and suggested that the tonal shift in "Picard" means it's part of the new timeline and not the original, and that the cannon problems in "Enterprise" also likely put it in the new timeline as well. I think I accept that reasoning a little more.
Picard made references to SNW and Disco details. So it’s definitely under a version of that future. In same way lower decks and Picard are interconnected.
@@Catman498except the events of first contact always happened and are referenced in Voyager. Ya can't keep screaming "new timeline" whenever things don't fit the way you like
I stand by that the post first contact timeline is the “third” timeline including ent-disco-snw. The temporal cold war is a part of post-contact. Earth got a tech boost from the borg.. giving bigger ships, more advanced technology, and time travel technology.
The problem with that is, you get Discovery S3 & S4 referencing stuff from Picard, so that SHOULD place Picard in the Discovery timeline too. However, there's the issue of the Enterprise-D, Voyager etc showing up, so that would have to mean Enterprise, Discovery & Strange New Worlds would therefore fit in the original timeline.
@@vegeta50024 stuff discovery references could easily just be corealized events from both timelines. For instance, the riker we see running the simulation that is ent, must be a version of riker from the new timeline, but in this instance, he is also filling the position he did in the tos timeline
@@nathannopants3157 So in other words, alternate/parallel timelines have both similarities and differences to each other. Some things change while others stay the same.
11:55 It's easy to place Khan in the EXACT time and space he is supposed to be. Choose ANY Entities you want to do that. Q, 29th Century time agents watching over Khan's ship, The Travellers and their Secret Agents, Organians, etc, etc... Dragging the ships together through space so they meet.
I prefer to think of Lower Decks as being in the Prime timeline based on all of the references and continuous need for them. The Time Portal was also inter-universal as well similar to the Guardian. This makes inter-universal crossovers possible.
Up until the crossover episode, it visually referenced tos, rendered in tas style once and adapted tos aesthetics for old ships and species numerous times.
There were Kelvin-timelime Klingon weapons in one episode, and Trekyards has a video about it. Saying that, I give Lower Decks a pass, as it doesn't try to insist itself on anyone.
Data in TNG sort of confirms this very thing when he explains about quantum realities. I think it's the episode where Worf is jumping between realities.
not if they dont complete the interconected Spacial Interphrase arc which Connects both Star Trek Enteprise Mirror Darkley and the events of the Tholian Web I mean common theres no way in hell that piece of mirror Enterprise-TOS cannon lores gonna be retconned until the final part of that mirror universe TOS defiant storry is gonna be completed
They've been trying to do a Starfleet Academy movie or series in one form or another for more than 25 years. If they had started a show when they first made noises about it, at least one of those academy members would be an admiral by now.
There's only one timeline that's canon and that's the one that ended in 2004. The rest is vandalism, but it's very easily fixed. You have a de-aged Daniels show up in a two minute scene that's similar to the finale to the Temporal war in Enterprise Season 4. That's it, everything Kurtzman-Trek wiped out of existence, the TOS/TNG timeline restored and we move forward and never speak of it again.
If Spock never used the Anti-time formula in the episode The Naked Time, the Enterprise would have been destroyed, the Doomsday Machine would still be at large, and V'Ger would have destroyed Earth. In short, Spock created the first known divergent timeline back in 2266. That might be a timeline worth exploring just to see what would change.
Hated the "Enterprise" theme song but loved the show.. Each series had its up and down episodes, but were overall liked and accepted by all viewers, even those taking place in "alternate timelines".
The difference between the Kelvin timeline and the current Prime timeline is that the former was free to alter events as much as the creators desired, while the latter has to stick to the classic canon as a general rule, if not in every particular. "Arena" may play out differently in a few ways, but "Arena" will still occur in some sense. But "Arena" didn't happen in the JJ movies: Bones was already delivering Gorn babies before it would have happened.
Chicago Joe here... I wonder if it was about money? It's always about money! Jumping on the "Multiverse Wagon" just might save this franchise also if they went back in time to the 60'S in SNW S2... It would have costed millions to film a period piece. Would have been great to see.☝
Picard is also in the Discovery timeline. In Picard season 1, it's Pike's Enterprise that's shown in the hologram that floats above Picard's head at Starfleet HQ. Maybe season 3 is back in the prime timeline, given that the USS New Jersey is a TOS-style constitution class ship.
I think a lot of people would rather throw out or ignore that S1 & S2 of Picard happened in order to make S3 fit. However, it's hard to just throw them out without keeping in mind that the Stargazer & the Excelsior II classes exist from S2 of Picard.
@@vegeta50024 Was it Admiral Janeway or Chief O'Brien (or both?!) who suggested ignoring temporal mechanics? Personally, though I enjoyed Picard season 3, I'm OK with it fitting into an alternate timeline. But if it's in the prime timeline, the ships from season 2 can still fit into a prime and alternate timeline. Per the logic of Strange New Worlds, by the 25th century time could have healed itself enough for the Federation to look similar in both timelines.
I think the time travel arc from S2, plus the multiple casualties in 2024, must've pushed it back into the Prime Timelime. All those deaths should've had a massive effect on the future, even just the unlucky guy from the bar.
I have always rejected the idea that the Narada time-traveling caused the JJ timeline to diverge... since the technology was already significantly different.
@@LoveableNerd Well, the timeline did reset itself in the beginning of the 4th season and Daniels said everything is back to normal now. The Xindi never showed up or were mentioned again after that... except in the Mirror Universe.
@@DarinRWagner ah that. That Mirror Universe part happened thx to the fate of the TOS Defiant and the Spacial Interphase arc That ofc is the most accepted and underrated story which has inter-connected both Star Trek Enterprise and TOS only because of what happend to the TOS USS Defiant after it vanished from the Prime Timeline via spacial Interphase.
No, this is not canon. It's just an excuse why these producers wanted to completely destroy Star Trek in favor of their own agendas. Star Trek the Original Series is the one and only!
While I am late to the party (by a year!) I appreciate the different timeline theories if only because I can pretend that most of new Trek can exist in its own corner of reality. My personal perspective of the Timelines is: (Prime) This is TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, and VOY as well as the first 10 films. (ENT) This timeline is begun by the Borg incursion in First Contact and generally results in technology being developed faster up to an approximately 24th century level. This is ENT, STD, SNW, Lower Decks, and PIC (Kelvin) This is begun with the destruction of Romulus and includes the JJ films 2009, Into Darkness, and Beyond. The SNW changes with Khan could be attributed to the temporal wars seen in ENT. I don't know enough about Prodigy to put it into a specific timeline. Of course this setup doesn't really factor how STD/SNW Spock becomes legacy Spock for the start of the Kelvin Timeline - I suppose the Supernova could have happened in both the Prime and ENT timelines.
I always had said paramount only needed to say New trek is in Calvin. But Paramount always doublet down that new trek is the Main Timeline. And I never understood why. Ok PR because Trekkies hate Calvin. Personal, I would support your point of few. But Bad Robot / Paramount doesn't seam to see It the same way.
We can argue their are 4 timelines, the 4th being in Star Trek Online. The online timeline exists where Data was supposed to have been revived before the Kelvin Timeline was created and at a time, Data was Captain of a Starship forgot which one. We can say the events that created the Kelvin Timeline made a split, one where Data was revived early and the one he was revived at a much later date
@@devmag52 thats where a timeline involving the Mirror Universe comes in if it has a piece of tech that allows it to traverse universes and Timelines thats where things get interesting
Picard is in the Nexus since Generations. The Nexus gave him what he wanted, to be the Hero so it gave Jean-Luc Guinen who gave Picard the best Captain in Starfleet History TNG. "We're always have Paris" explained what Jean-Luc always wanted. To be special and he feared to be ordinary. The Nexus or Space Heaven gave him a Timeline where his crew do not die.
Let's not forget that season 3 had a Strange New Worlds shuttle outside the unfortunate Starfleet recruitment center, which throws the timeline theory for a loop. At the end of the day, Star Trek is Star Trek, and discussions of timelines are part of the fun for fans (as long as we stand together and continue talking to each other).
It fixes things. Not only have time travel and infinite parallel universes been a premise of the show for a long time, but the introduction of the Temporal Cold War in Enterprise made these outcomes inevitable. Having multiple timelines rationalizes Discovery quite well: I can accept Discovery being in its own timeline and having little or nothing to do with prime Trek. Similarly deviations from Strange New Worlds are fine. The Kelvinverse is not an outlier anymore, and it can exist on its own terms. You can do whatever you want as long as the prime is consistent with itself. If they had said from the beginning Discovery was its own timeline, my reception (and I'm sure the response of many fans) would have been different.
All the nonsense involving the Eugenics Wars aside.. Has anyone considered the fact that shoving the events of WWIII that far forward would probably cause the Vulcans to arrive in the middle of the nuclear holocaust, and decide Earth wasn't worth the trouble? RIP First Contact.
Nothing wrong with Alex's and Akiva's decision to make multiple timeline, but, I think it was bad PR that they did not think that us astute Star Trek fans wouldn't recognize that the changes they created wouldn't be noticed. I think that A/A should do some PR with us, and bring Terry Metalas's Legacy to life.
Yep, honesty needed and removal of their arrogance towards fans who are very familiar with and respectful towards Roddenberry/Berman Star Trek and their writers.
There are WAY more than thee canon "timelines," it's always been official, and I'll prove it in one word: *Mirror, Mirror*. (Is it two words if I use the same word twice? I think *not*. HAH!) Not enough? Okay, how about the alternate timeline that Spock presented on his tricorder (because they were IN it) in *City on the Edge of Forever*? What about the alternate universe that we saw in *The Alternative Factor*?
I’m not a massive fan who keeps up with every detail but I have to say SNW has brought back that feeling I got from OG, NG, DS9, and the Abrams movies. It’s fun, exciting, and has me excited for every new episode ( except the singing one ) so I’m down and I hope it goes further. I wanna see Kirk in that Captains seat again with the crew showing me new stories that remind me of my childhood.
There is four timelines. Picard season 2 created a new timeline when Agnes became a Borg in the past. Picard season 3 never mentioned the Borg aligning with them because it was the original timeline.
These are people we look up too, people that became figures in our lives that we take into adulthood and the industry either knew what they were doing or are figuring it out now. I want that character to do all the great things I wish I could right? And they do. For a long time, now as an adult I want that to reflect my own life again. All the struggles, and the realization of passing on the torch.
In some fan stuff I did (blending together several Scify franchises), I quickly came to realize ST's timeline no longer makes any sense, so I fudged things by creating a new dating system 100 years off from our current Gregorian one, and thus, I had a 'lost century', during which time you could have several Earth wars, a few space wars, and even a 'Belter' period a'la The Expanse. Since this was a tumultuous time in Earth's history, it has been 'covered up' by a clandestine group, and most people are completely unaware of the duel dating system and the missing century.
I have enjoyed strange new worlds just because I've accepted it's a separate timeline in my head cannon at least it is separate and therefore I can enjoy it Star Trek Picard season 3 I would say is in the original timeline and lower decks get across over in between
Honestly i don't consider nutrek 2009 and up to be canon but since they say nutrek is a different timeline i think i am ok with that .because the actors are great but the story and everything else needs work. Plus, i think its just best that gene and berman trek is left in the past where it is safe and is not disrespectful. but i am indeed sad for prodigy and Terry's trek hope paramount reconsiders but we still need section 31 can't wait for that 🎉
I wish they had kept true to one main timeline and to the original concept of Gene Roddenberry’s concept of a better world and lessons learned from each episode.
I think the alternate timelines show how one simple decision made by one person can splinter off and create multiple different timelines, a causality effect I have long been interested in.
I've been mentally filing all that post 2005 Star Trek as alternate reality Trek since the 2009 movie. Granted I liked Picard season 3 and have accepted SNW, there is no way it takes place in the same reality as the pre-2005 stuff. What I don't understand is why they are so afraid of making new Star Trek that takes place after Nemesis but features no ties to pre-existing characters.
I don’t have a problem with a third timeline. They sort of dealt with this in Star Trek episodes of the past that every action and every timeline can cause repercussions in a different timeline and so on just let us know which timeline we’re dealing with in this episode and I don’t have a problem. I just wish I could watch some of these new Siri‘s, but I’m stuck in a place doesn’t got me get that channel.
The events in Discovery were SO contrary to what I believe is the core of the Federation and Starfleet that, after a few episodes, I couldn't watch it anymore. Until I told a friend that I could only watch it if it was in a Mirror Universe (there are more than one, for sure). He said, "Yes! Do that!". And then it all came together and I could watch it. Then Michael's speech in the finale restored the spirit of Star Trek. Watching SNW, I really wanted to put it back in the TOS universe; so I ignored Discovery references. But, La'an made that nearly impossible. THEN the Gorn. THAT made it impossible. I had to put it back in a Mirror Universe. The La'an and Khan episode officially made it a new timeline! Now I can enjoy Pike's (alternate) story. Thank you for the detailed analysis!
You are singing my song! Chapel has a totally different personality and look, and so does Spock. The technology and interiors I could accept but Spock and Chapel having an open affair does not really jibe with TOS. I hope they make it though. Despite all the hype Spock is annoyed with our gallant Lt. Kirk. Chapel's rendezvous with Korby is cut short by the Gorn attack. Boimler tells her "this Spock isn't right." What more do you need? I must point out that the attempts to kill Khan being thwarted by "time" is nuts. Khan is the will of God and you cannot change it. There. I said the forbidden word. As to "official". What does that mean exactly? Has a producer admitted it?
I am a Gene Roddenbury time line Person. Too many times Paramount officials let new folks coming into Star Trek Poductions to redo Star Trek. I against what Mr Abrams did. I wish Paramount would sell Stat Trek because they allowed too many times lime changes. hopefully New owners will settle on & stay with Roddenbury;s time line.
There's as many timelines as there are viewers. Even within TOS there are inconsistancies and mistakes, and though there are some official, "approved" responses addressing these, often fans just relied on "head canon", an answer based on their personal interests and understandings. Head canon can also address things are aren't actual errors, but simply problems that arise when a viewer just doesn't like a story or addition to what has occured. To me, there's only three Star Wars films. I don't care what Lucas or Disney says - the hours upon hours of Star Wars produced since Return of the Jedi are just not part of my Star Wars. Luke never ended up a bitter, angry old fart on a distance world. That's just stupid and could never happen. The same is true of Star Trek. To me, the only thing that exists past Enterprise is Picard season 3. I even have to purge most of seasons 1 and 2 because they just don't make any sense at all given literally EVERYTHING that came before. To enjoy season 3, I just need to accept that somehow Picard found himself in an android body at some point. I may wish that never happened, but it's integral to the plot. So that happened, but that's pretty much it. The mistake is thinking that the IP owners own my imagination. Only I get to decide what is canon for me. Sure, it's disappointing that all those hours of new Star Trek programing don't actually exist, but I won't let a group of crappy writers take control of something I love. They don't own Trek. I do. It's in my heart. It's in my imagination. Kurtzman & Co are just temporary stewards. When they have left to go work on the third reboot of Gilmore Girls or whatever, I'll still be here. So there is no Star Trek until Matalas gets Legacy on the air. Discovery? SNW? Never heard of them...
The Vulcan Science Directorate has concluded that time travel is impossible. Captain Jonathan Archer: Well, good for the Vulcan Science Directorate. Accountants: Excellent, now we'll spend an eternity on keeping track on all the timelines .. God: Oh boy :ø)
I don't have a problem with divergent timelines, because those are an established tool of science fiction since the first divergent timeline stories, even before science fiction used that name. What I have an absolute problem with is creators who stubbornly refuse to admit when they use a different timeline. Example: why has Pike's original bridge crew never been mentioned in SNW? Jose Tyler could be related to the original Ash Tyler from The Cage, and he could be really mad about losing his relative to the Klingons, but we never see it. Commander Thelin from TAS "Yesteryear" could be an Aenar like Hemmer, but we haven't heard about Thelin in any other canon story. So... If we can get an admission from Kurtzman, Goldsman, Bird, etc that these are indeed new timelines and not an attempt to mess with TOS, that would make great sense and be true to science fiction. The fans should be happy with that (as a fan of TOS since 1968, I know I would be).
They cannot admit something they do not intend to do! It was never meant to be a different timeline but a TOS prequel with some visual and timeline tweaks here and there. It works for me...perfectly....
It's just denial because they're afraid fans will reject it if its a wholesale new timeline. Yet, by definition that is what they've done. Now they can persist in calling this new ever-morphing reality the "Prime" timeline. That's fine. But it's not the original TOS-TAS-TNG-DS9-VOY timeline. @@darthgormagander9643
I would like to point out that tng was the one that moved the timeline of The augments war and ww3 to mid 21 century instead of the late 20 century with dialogue. And you can follow it up with ds9 and voyager. Ds9 Bell riots happened in 2020s and voyager being sent to 1996 earth. In both instances there was no ww3 in the 90s. And when tng enterprise e time traveled in first contact ww3 just ended and first contact took place in 2063. The reason why Star Trek timeline shifted was because people beliefs of the future was grim in 1960s and they thought we would be in a ww3 by the 1990s. But when tng was being made in the late 1980s there was no ww3 and the future looked better so they moved ww3 and to make it mirror what was going on in the real world. Also hate to tell you this but tos, discovery, snw, and tng share the same timeline.
I’ve always thought of “new” trek as existing in another timeline. That was only way I could my sanity about how bad it is. I think the timeline branching is a good way to get around things but I hate the extra time lines. I want the real Star Trek timeline of TOS and Berman era Trek. The stewardship of Star Trek needs to be given to Terry Matalas. Picard season 3 was such a relief. To see real Star Trek again was a great experience. Everything that paramount wants to do with Star Trek is just apes throwing their feces against the wall. They are the only ones who want Star Trek: 90210 or Section 31. Give us Star Trek: Legacy. I want to see Captain Seven of Nine, Ensign Crusher/Picard, And the crew of the Enterprise G boldly go where no one has gone before.
And place it in the original timeline. A few details from the new stuff could be brought in if it's intelligent, fits well, and doesn't break original timeline canon. As for how bad the new stuff is, that's the result of arrogance, incompetence, negligence, and complete lack of respect for the franchise and its fans.
exactly. When I saw the Uss New Jersey with the TOS style ship I knew it was Matalas's silent way of saying fuck you to Akiva and company. 😂...I'm sure they are all friends but I think Terry respects what came before way more than akiva
The Kelvin event also created an alternate parallel prime universe, which is where Picard takes place. Picard isn't in the Prime (original) timeline. That timeline has TOS to ENT.
@@MJG206 Double wrong. The I.R.W Nerada was the one responsible for the Destruction of the USS Kelvin itself hence the name Kelvin Timeline while some say PIcard would be the prime TNG Timeline heh sure whatever but the JJverse earned the name Kelvin TImeline cuz of Nero's Mining ship that was responsible for it.
I've been pointing this out repeatedly - but so many people are still determined not to accept reality. Despite what some seem to think, Trek has always recognised mutliple timelines and these have been front-and-centre of many storylines - and there are many, many more than four timelines.
When writers, show runners and producers think the fans aren't smart enough for their versions it is pure projection. The majority of viewers are more versed in the lore and more intelligent than 99% of Hollywood.
@user-kc2fu8iw3v Seriously? What have the Red Pill Manosphere nerdals been talking about since Fresh and Fit rose up to mainstream status? Sounds like mommy issues to outsiders, and American males don't take rejection from women well. 99% Mass Shooters exist because they felt rejected by girls and society. Please grow up. I used to want to go to the West but not anymore. China is so peaceful and I rather they lead the globe this century
And just to further make brains hurt.. has anyone noticed that the United States Space Force emblem/seal look an awful lot like Star Fleet badging? And further does anyone really thinks THATS a coincidence... Yep, write it in! USSF become UNSF, becomes Star Fleet.
@@danielhogston With some additional confusing bits like in Enterprise there we’re some episodes that we’re specifically clear that Eugenics wars we’re still in 1990s so at least pre-contact history was mostly in line with the original timeline but only before the point of first contact.
@ThePopcast there is someone from the future who can say without this mysterious character disclosing all the information to me, that many trek fans are not supporting it. It's not what they expected. The third timeline called the Red Angel Timeline provided by the time traveler, is what it's called.
The illusion is that there is a prime timeline. There isnt. Every episode is in its own continuity with many being similar or happening but any minor inconsistencies are solved by understanding every episode is a variance. TNG did an episode Parralels That dove into the multiverses existence.
You're 100% right about current Trek being a new timeline, though I'm afraid the showrunners see all of it as part of the new timeline. They intend that Picard is in the new timeline, despite how little sense that makes if these timeline changes affect First Contact, which Picard and crew visited. In Picard S1, when Picard goes to Starfleet there is a hologram of a Constitution Class above him, which is the Discovery version. Now this could be explained away that this was a design variant for that class even in the Prime timeline, just not the Enterprise. Then in Picard S2 we have that tease of Adam Soong with the Project Khan folder. I think the showrunners intended this to imply that Soong created Khan, hence the young boy in SNW S2, however it could alternatively be interpreted that the Eugenics Wars already happened and he was looking at old files on Khan to start messing with Augments (which nicely flows into his descendant Arik having them). Finally, there are tie ins in Discovery. There's a reference to how Admiral Picard was transfered into a synth body, and also footage from Unification of Nimoy Spock. We could write these off and say that by the 24th century, time had corrected to be very similar to the Prime Timeline. For me, I choose to think Prime is ENT, TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, Movies 1-10, LD, Prodigy and Picard, while Discovery and SNW are a new timeline. LD crossing over was also between realities, hence why Boimler being caught off guard by several aspects.
Now what's also interesting is all the other timeline changes that kind of get glossed over such as: -TOS, TNG, GEN, the start of DS9 and VOY, and the first few minutes of FC take place in an original timeline where Zephram Cochrane and Lily Sloane were in the Phoenix and the Borg didn't attack in the past. Presumably a version of Enterprise happened without "Regeneration" -Daniels comes from a future version of history where the Xindi did not attack Earth as he says none of those events were supposed to happen. In that timeline the Delphic Expanse grew quite large. -Also related, the Kelvin Timeline must have branched off the Prime Timeline AFTER the Sphere Builders started manipulating the Xindi. This is because Krall/Edison referenced fighting in the "Xindi War".
honestly, it almost feels like the oeiginal timeline is the one where romulans tried slowing down human progress, ignoring the eugenics war, mostly focusing on the technologies (bigger ships, holograms and stuff, etc)
"If it's an official product, it's canon. you can't just ignore stories you don't like." Uh huh. Threshold. Large parts of The Animated Series. The 'no female captains allowed' policies in TOS. I think you can.
Personally I love exploring alternate timelines - some of my favorite episodes are Yesterday's Enterprise, Future Imperfect and ALL the Mirror Universe stories! I would gladly watch Disco and SNW without knowing they're in a new timeline, but I appreciate all the rationalizing that they are (and found Tomorrow , Tomorrow and Tomorrow VERY satisfying!).
I agree this makes most sense as a new timeline. But I also agree with OG fans that we need more stuff written from that hopeful, optimistic original timeline where Starfleet were the good guys and humanity had moved on to become better.
It's amusing the lengths that some people go about the entertainment business and the pretense of being an expert about silly future forecasting. Here's the deal: Star Trek doesn't predict the fure - it can't. THe 21st century will emanate totally differently.
What do you guys think? Do you like the idea of the three timelines or would you prefer it was all just one? What are your thoughts on Strange New Worlds? Please consider checking out our sponsor Dave.com/popcast if you need financial help and consider becoming a Member by clicking JOIN above. We do a Member's live Stream every Thursday and it is a lot of fun!
Hi Dave, I don't have a problem with Discovery/Strange New Worlds being considered canon as long as it is established that it isn't so much set in an alternate TIMELINE but in an alternate UNIVERSE where Klingons DIDN'T lose their forehead ridges to an augment virus in their 22nd Century and the 23rd Century Constitution Class design was more advanced than the Galaxy, Sovereign and Intrepid Class Starships of the PRIME Universe 24th Century, and let's face it, the Discovery AND SNW Enterprise are FAR more advanced looking, at least their interiors are. In the CW DC Universe saga "Crisis on Infinite Earths," Tyler Heochlin's Superman encountered his Brandon Routh and Tom Welling counterparts in different Universes, two Supermen with different faces to his own. In the recent "The Flash" movie, Ezra Miller's Flash encounters firstly the Bruce Wayne/Batman of his own Universe, the Ben Affleck version. When he is thrown into an alternate universe, he encounters the Batman of that Universe, Michael Keaton's version, and finally when he returns to what he believes is his OWN universe, he finds that he has instead landed in one where George CLOONEY is Batman. Same with the "Spiderman: No Way Home" movie where Tom Holland's Spiderman encounters his counterparts with different faces from different Universes, Toby Maguire and Andrew Garfield. So, as far as I am concerned, Star Trek ALSO has a multiverse with different Kirks, Spocks, Pikes, etc, and THAT is what the Discovery/Strange New Worlds Universe is. NOTHING to do with alternate timelines.
Going by established time travel Trek episodes such as Timeless (ST Voyager) and the rather large time gap, I would consider the 32nd Century seen in ST Discovery a 4th timeline (possible future) as any event occurring in SNW or Legacy could easily change the course of events leading up to there.
They broke logic!
One timeline with alternate universes was fine, but all these different timelines removes the allure the original one had
@@spartainwarrior6445 Tbh, the different Kirks/Spocks/timelines/universes helps with my head-canon. I can now watch TOS without thinking about all the retcons made in Discovery/SNW.
You could argue that everytime they've travelled to the past in Star Trek they've created new timelines.
Agreed 💯🖖
There have always been an infinite number of possible Star Trek timelines. Consider the TNG episode Parallels. If using an alternate timeline allows you to tell better stories, go for it.
It really depends on one's definition of "better." With the exception of Picard season 3, and SNW, everything trek I've seen since Enterprise was either made with the wrong goals in mind or poorly written, and often both. Even Picard season 3, and SNW retain a few issues that don't fit, but are huge improvements over other recent stuff.
@@haplozetetic9519I would comment about the "huge improvement" part, but for the rest I agree with you, although more than Alternative timelines I always though that potential divergence could be resolved with establishing different alternative reality and then we move on or tried to improve the current series to meet previous quality standard, to me apart from LD which for all its jokes, at least was made by peoplel who know Star Trek canon, the rest of Nutrek doesn't deserve to be considered Canon or at least not the main Canon, also right now to be fair even Prodigy seem to have a different style and atmosphere compare to "Picard" that make me doubt that they are in the same timelines or even ENThas some, minor in my opinion, but still some divergence that divided it from TOS, in fact I always though that in ENT they made an error to not reveal that Daniels work for the 31st century version of Section 31 and that he has in fact actively change the timelines multiple times in order to create a more stronger Federation in Section 31 mind, after all don't you think starnge that for all their technologies Daniels doesn't actively help Archer and his crew but, it seem far more willing to use them as basically "pawn" in the Temporal War?
So far it has only yielded far inferior stories
Doctor Who's quote "A big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey wimey stuff" has never been more fitting.
LOL, Yes!
I love it
Very Wibbly Wobbly lol
Fantastic way to put it
A big bowl of wibbly, wobbly, timey wimey spaghetti.
I'm sick of everyone trying to write off bad writing with that Doctor Who quote... 😏
Just an FYI, I am told by a good friend of mine, that in the novelization (audiobook version) of the original Chris Pine “Star Trek” 2009 Reboot, the reason certain characters met up with each other (I think Scotty and Kirk on the ice moon/planet) was “because the timeline was trying to correct itself.” (On the idea that “This is a *totally* new concept for Star Trek.”-10:05) Thanks and love your stuff.
Oddly I've still never seen anyone mention the xindi... Even the new shows that say Archer existed and so did the original Enterprise still never mention that earth was nearly wiped out...
Agreed.
Enterprise especially dealt with some issues that never were mentioned before. The Suliban terrorists, the temporal cold war, the Xindi, the Sphere Builders, Earth at the brink of destruction as you have mentioned. Remember, when in Voyager the Hirogen went through the violent history of Earth and Mankind and jumped from the third World War directly to larger, interstellar conflicts? I guess they must have just overlooked the Xindi incident... Enterprise went through a lot of never established drama, but skipped the established events, like the Human/Romulan war. It was about to begin when the series was finally cancelled. But this would have been more interesting from a lore standpoint, than everything else, they did.
So, of course, when Enterprise came out it rubbed me all wrong. I felt back then like many people feel about Discovery and Nu Trek nowadays. But I never explained it away as not being canon or another timeline. I just figured that out of universe, there were many bad decisions and in-universe it was a weird "We don't talk about this anymore" issue. The worst part for me was, that the producers said, they prefered a prequel over a sequel, so they don't get tied down by years of established lore. Which was nonsense, of course. A sequel doesn't tie somebody down with established lore, but a prequel most certainly will. You can't destroy the Earth in the past, when the viewer knows it still exists in the future of the franchise. What kind of logic is this? You want to threaten the Earth and make it believable? Do it in a future era, where the outcome of the conflict is unknown. Do it in the past and either the viewer will already know the outcome, detracting from the dramatic effect, or you violate the established lore, which the viewer might not like at all. A prequel is even more binding than a sequel, so the series certainly didn't work well for me. Also the focus on the crew as the inventors of mostly everything seen on the other shows before, from the red alert, to better transporters, to forcefields, all this seemed to be a bit too much. Like all geniuses the Earth had to offer were already on board of the Enterprise and there were no other inventors left. It felt forced.
So, while I didn't like prequels because of these very reasons and wasn't fond of the Kelvin Timeline either (I watched it, I found it to be entertaining, but it wasn't the timeline I grew up with, I loved and cared for), I still accepted it to be in some way, shape or form canon. I wish people would do so nowadays with all the new shows as well.
I only see one additional problem and I know, it's almost blasphemous to say this, but out of all shows TOS stands out of the franchise as a rusty nail, when it comes to the look and feel of the franchise. TOS doesn't resemble a more technologically advanced future and any show set in the same era kinda struggles with exactly this issue. One solution would be to simply refrain from doing prequels and to return to the "future", continuing to explore how stuff evolved since we last saw them, instead of trying to retell stories of days gone by.
Another, most likely universally hated solution would be to slowly overwrite the TOS era with a more modernized look and feel. This only would work with a new timeline though. But then again, a new timeline might not stop at TOS, but might also overwrite TNG, DS9 and Voyager. So it's far from being an optimal solution, maybe it's really just best to let the past be the past and just return to the late 24th or early 25th century.
Despite me not liking prequels in general, I'll make an exception for SNW though. It's the first prequel show I actually like. But I hope Star Trek producers don't make a habit of churning out prequels.
Xindi had been around from the early books, and Enterprise was NX-01 n9ot 1701, and dealt with issues newly created, not to destroy canon but support it.
@@Streifi That's actually not true. The Xindi appear in Prodigy along side some Kazon.
which is part of nu trek@@nextlevelenglish5858
@@nextlevelenglish5858 While that may be so, Prodigy is still one of the modern shows produced after Enterprise was produced, so of course the "Xindi" are a known (multi-)species by now.
I however spoke of all the other old shows set after "Enterprise" like TNG, DS9 and Voyager. The Xindi didn't exist in the lore of those shows back then and were never once mentioned when catastrophic events in human history were mentioned.
That they now retroactively get added in new shows doesn't change the fact that the show Enterprise first introduced a bunch of anachronisms that weren't really part of Star Trek's timeline at that point and didn't fit in neatly, unless explained away with some kind of temporal shenanigans.
I was afraid of this TBH. I feel that they just want to do this so they can be different and do what they desire without staying true to tradition and what came before.
I agree. The new writers don’t have the talent to blaze their own trail so they just misuse what came before.
Exactly... They dont give a shit about what the franchise was built on... They just want to create whatever the hell they want and slap the Star Trek name on it and expect the fans to eat it up.
You don't need to be afraid because the entire premise of this RUclips video is false. The whole "third timeline" thing is, despite the video title, not official, not acknowledged, and not canon. The official stance is that there's just the prime timeline and Kelvin timeline. This video takes retcons and tries to argue they represent new timelines, but the examples given (like SNW pushing Khan forward) is hardly new. DS9 traveled to 2024, no Khan or eugenics wars. Voyager traveled to 1996, no Khan or eugenics wars. Star Trek 4 traveled to 1986, no sign of an impending eugenics war. Star Trek has been retconning itself since the original series, and it's silly to argue that every single time travel episode (of which there are nearly 50) created an alternate timeline. Strange New Worlds was simply trying to provide an in-universe explanation for why the original 1992 date kept getting pushed back.
@@guspaz if it's not true then I still feel SNW is making choices I personally don't agree with.
@@johntetreaultI’ve been saying NuTrek is a different timeline since the end of STD S1. It was obvious the marketing was using JJ’s slight of hand in his film to imply the divergent Kelvin timeline originated from what came to be known as the Prime timeline, from which Spock played by Nimoy emerged… just one problem…
At the time of making that film, JJ wasn’t allowed to use the Classic Spock from the Classic timeline spanning the decades between TOS to ENT. Thus JJ created the Prime timeline, and as he admitted through the conversation between Spock and Spock at the end of the film… “Oh, I… implied” where on he refers to a conversation between himself and Kelvin Kirk that did not happen… that implying a thing meant Kirk and by extension the audience filled in the blanks without hard proof, or verbal confirmation of was actually happening.
Thus people believed Prime to be Classic canon when it was not. Prime was just a timeline yet to be invented that began when STD aired its first season, when the split rights negotiations to move a trek under one production roof were still ongoing. It was later those rights came together under Secret Hideout but by then they had made Prime alternate continuity and were actively pushing away anyone from the scriptwriting team scriptwriters who might accidentally make NuTrek feel like Star Trek because they needed to build a new Trek brand for a new generation. They presented an alt continuity but refused to admit it in hopes of keeping the old fans aboard… because like Dr Who they knew… even if you aren’t catering to the old fans, their watch time still counts on streaming analysis so they would not actively chase them away in marketing.
But the mask slipped years ago, and now with 15 seasons of NuTrek to it name people have more than enough evidence to see NuTrek is not only alt continuity… but in something I did not expect… many of their series don’t even line up with their own continuity, making Kurtzmans ‘multiple universes, same character’ Countdown comic the smoking gun of how he intended to approach his NuTrek.
Star Trek didn’t need new timelines. It needed writers who can write in the original cannon. There’s still much to write about. For an example, the missing era.
Agree. There is a lot left to explore. Just need writers who can write good or better science fiction and a showrunner/producers permit them to do it. It would be hugely beneficial if the latter persons show respect towards Roddenberry, Berman and the work of their writers and drop their arrogance🙂.
I’d love to see the life and times of enterprises b and c.
Heck we already have the launch and first mission of the B from star trek Generations.
If we need to replace the captain then have him killed off by an eps conduit explosion that overloaded and took him out on his way back to the bridge.
But i swear, the tech and styling of everything had damn well better match the era.
Honestly it's probably hard to make the tech and styling completely match. A lot of TOS styling looks dated now.
yup. It's not hard to write around. They go out of their way to screw things up....
All very true , but the "Multi-Verse TIMELINES" Theory encourages DIRECT STORY DEVELOPMENT in _each- , as _long_ as each timeline's Cannon is preserved and no more "NEW TIMELINE" excuses for BAD WRITING following EQUALLY BAD *VISION* .
If we get down to the bones of this conversation, there are several timelines (possibly hundreds). I can hang this on one episode in ST:TNG. In the episode “Parallels” Worf moves through a fissure that causes him to phase between alternate versions of his reality. Each of these phases, could very well be separate timelines. If this is true, we know for sure that each phase constitutes a different timeline. When the attempt to correct this problem goes awry, seemingly hundreds of alternate Enterprises were pulled into that current timeline through the fissure. They had different histories. This is canonically factual since TNG is canon. It may be theorized that correcting this event would destroy the other timelines, but I find that unlikely since that crew, with Captain Riker was willing to do it. I doubt they would consider suicide of their own existence, to help Worf get to one the one they knew little about.
Consider this: this truth means even our reality, our timeline, is a canonical part of the series, as we’re still waiting for a Kirk or Picard, in our timeline the show is changing our world, as if Starfleet sent the idea back from a different future. We are a part of the show.
I’m waiting for an episode where characters beam into a Star Trek convention and shocked.
@@Catman498 kind of like crashing the convention in the NSEA-Protector?
Every Star Trek series has its own continuity. That's why the 1990s described in TOS is different from the 1990s we see in Voyager. That's why the Eugenics Wars happen in different centuries in TOS and DS9.
With all of the time stuff that happened in Voyager, my Dad and I believe that the Voyager by the end of the show is probably not the same one as the one from the beginning.
I lived through the Golden age of Trek 1987 to 2005. I'm grateful for any new Trek stories regardless of the timeliness. I love TOS, TNG, DS9, Voy, ENT, Dis, SNW, LD, Pic, and will love Legacy. We are on the path to the new Star Trek Century. Let's enjoy the ride.
Stamp a box of poo with trek stamped on it why not? It’s all good
I am with this; I like all Star Trek!
Growing up with TOS, I always find the inconsistencies jarring - T'Pring showing up in SNW when no one knew her in TOS as well as all the other changes. What I don't understand is why they had to go back before the time of TOS for a new series. I would have loved to have seen the ramifications of questions left over from TOS. For example, in "Plato's Stepchildren" in TOS, humans can have telekinetic powers. I wanted to see how that was addressed following that episode. I am sure Section 31 would be interested. Holding opposing ships in place with your mind would have been helpful in the Dominion War. Why wasn't it used? So many things from TOS could have been a jumping off point for episodes in another series following the timeline, and yet before TNG. Instead that had to go back before and start retconning/a new timeline.
One can argue quite confidently that the original timeline actually branched when the first predictive event in STOS did not occur in OUR reality… All of Star Trek takes place universes that we simply do not occupy unless current events happen in future past…. That said, just enjoy the art and focus less on inconsequential/irrelevant concerns. Lastly, predatory lenders (the sponsor) are worse than Ceti-eels…
I trhink the reason why spock is emotional is because in the cage he smiles, but its stated before that vulcans do have emotions they just choose to supress and hide it because it caused a nuclear war that almost destroyed valcan, I think Romulans are the Vulcans that did not want to supress their emotions.
They could say that Lower Decks is in the original timeline by later finding out that because of the branching timelines, the time portal that Boimler and Mariner cross connected to the alternate timeline and anything they did wouldn't affect their own branch. The Orion and Tendi ancestor connection could just be how it happened in both branches.
Lower Decks belongs in the new timeline called the Red Angel Suit Universe with information provided by a time traveler who has interest in historical media.
@@TMMAASno it's not lol you're pulling that outta your ass
@@TMMAASlower decks is in the prime timeline
@@UltraBrian-e2q no Lower Decks is in a Alternate Prime timeline.
@@TMMAAS nope, Lower Decks is officially in the Prime Timeline, not an alternative timeline.
As someone who respects the lore, I'm ok with multiple time-lines.
hehe Im tottaly onboard with that since i too am neutral with that while respecting both the trek lore and all trek timelines that are seperate from both the Kelvin and Prime Timelines and operate in their own ways .
Burnham committed mutiny, but didn't start the war. She was going to fire, yet was stopped by Capt Georgiou. The Klingons fired first. They started the war.
aggravated by a mutinies actions. WHOOPS
Aye. Burnham starting the war is a misconception… but what isn’t is… she actively prevented the war ending on the day it started by turning the Klingon responsible into a martyr.
Burnham says it herself. Kill him and the war won’t stop. Yet she kills him, taking a hot second to flick her phaser to kill. That implies intent instead of heat of the moment. Heat of the moment would be hitting the trigger, perhaps multiple times.
The case can be made that Burnham actively wanted Starfleet at war with the Klingons and when she saw the opportunity, took every step to provoke one, but was thwarted by her Captain. Knowing she would prevent an all out war at any cost, and having lost her Captains trust, Burnham manipulated the situation so they she and her Captain would transport alone to the Klingon ship, where with no witnesses Burnham was free to carry out her plan that involved the death of her Captain who could have stopped her killing the Klingon. Once that obstacle was out of the way, and with no one who could personally sway the court system, Burnham killed the Klingon, locking Starfleet and the Klingons into war while she as the only witness could manipulate the information at her hearing to remove herself from the front lines to the relative safety of prison where she could plot her next move.
Her motivation was ofc the death of her parents and her own death before Sarek returned her to life by using a hithertoo unknown secret vulcan mind voodoo. With a humans desire for revenge and the cold calculating logic calculus, Burnham played the long game. Managing to train herself into a weapon that would both strike at the Klingon Empire, with Starfleet at her spear as she blamed the organisation for her parents demise. Opportunity and malicious resolve hidden behind decades of outward emotional repression allowed her to bypass Vulcan psyche evaluations due to no Vulcan wanting to meld with a human and relying on observations and questioning. But Burnham knew if she was evaluated by a human she might be vulnerable as she lacked the knowledge of humans to be sure she could trick them. Thus to avoid Starfleet psyche evaluations she leveraged Sareks relationship with a Starfleet Captain to accept her Vulcan science training as a substitute for academy tuition. Having gotten past the screening test could have stopped her plan, Burnham would then take stock of her situation and wait for the perfect opportunity to instigate war between the Federation, and the Klingon Empire.
@@davfree9732 Um... Burnham didn't plot anything. She was just suppressing a lot of anger from Klingon attack that killed her family back then. Nerds are seriously weird... and then wonder why girls don't like them. Jocks are pretty cool.
That whole show was a dumpster fire.
@@tjhaywood100 Insecure nerd alert
Would be interesting to hear what the Guardian of Forever thinks about it all!
I see this as an extension of the Temporal Cold War first shown in ENTERPRISE. ENT, the TNG era shows and the TOS films all must exist in this 'new' timeline as well. 1990's Earth is depicated in VOYAGER with no mention of the eugenics wars. The technology shown in the TOS films is more in line with DISCO/SNW as well. What's really interesting is that the date of First Contact (April 5, 2063) never seems to change. It's probably the Federation's temporally most vulnerable point so I'd imagine the era is littered with 30+ century time agents ready to thwart any temporal incursions.
100% agree. SNW characters and settings are simply not in the original timeline. If they'd just say so, the raging would indeed stop and everyone could enjoy it (or not) for what it is.
if you need the writers of a show to tell you if its canon or not for you to enjoy (or not) without being a complete mentally unhinged crazy fan you shouldnt be on the internet
@@LordsUther and if reading someone else’s comments upsets you so, you probably shouldn’t be either.
@@leeahlstrom3300 Agreed, if the official statement from paramount of DIS, SNW, and the earlier seasons of PIC are part of a new timeline. Then maybe the wikis wouldn't treat those events are canonical to the original timeline.
I can't agree more. I have refused to watch Discovery because of the insistence that it is in the Prime Universe. But so much of it was not cannon to the Prime. the refusal to admit that it is an alternate universe would solve so much inconsistencies. But the reaction to do that was always a cardinal sin in the franchise.
@@ejwa12 they should've just made it part of the kelvin/lensflareverse instead, and from what i've heard it was originally supposed to be an alternate universe, but because of executive meddling they had to say it's part of the prime one, because the execs were afraid alternate universe wouldn't make them enough money, and they wanted it to ride on prime's coat tails of popularity. there's little developed canon there so many things can be changed around without messing up the original universe, and as a bonus its klingons look the same as discovery's.
Could probably argue the new/prime timeline didn’t start with DSC but Star Trek XI (2009) with Spock Prime showing/explaining what happened in his time that lead to things in the Kelvinverse. If that’s the case then we don’t know anything that’s happened after “Nemesis,” also perhaps the Spock Prime we saw may really be SNW Spock not TOS Spock.
I'd actually like an episode of SNW in season three, where Pine's Kirk finds himself transported to the SNW timeline, from the "height" of Kirk's career JUST before he's promoted to Admiral. And while he, Pike, and the SNW Kirk are all chatting about what to do, Shatner's Kirk steps out of the Nexus to give them some ideas and some insight into all this kind of bizarre shit.
I think it would be cool to have Shatner's Kirk and Pine's Kirk meet this version of Pike, and express to him how much of a difference he made, and how much they've each respected him. And then show Pike that they've gone on to be some of the greatest captains in Starfleet because of it. And also a chance to really bind the different Kirks together. Yeah, they're different people because they've had different lives, but Shatner's Kirk could highlight the things that tie them together, that make them this immutable force in every timeline. What makes Kirk someone who changes the fate of the galaxy for the better, on a regular basis.
And most of all, highlight why their crews are so important to all of it.
Quite fanservicy but still think thats a really cool idea
The premise of rewriting Trek to make it try to stay in the future expires pretty fast; I seriously doubt we can bang together a crewed space flight to Europa in less than 16 months.
I actually think La’an was a product of the changed timeline with Khan being born later. Maybe she never existed in the original timeline.
Also i thought perhaps the timeline pushing back may actually be the work of the travelers or whatever group Wesley Crusher is a part of.
The addition of La'an was a HUGE red flag for me when they annouced the cast for SNW. It proved what I already suspected: Kurtzman & Co have no ideas. It's just recycled 'memberberries that add nothing and only prove how little they know about writing. FANS DON'T LOVE TWOK BECAUSE OF KHAN! They love it because it's a tightly-written and suspenceful character study about death and aging. It's about something real and meaningful. It's exciting and sad and thrilling all at once. But all these writers see is "Khan is cool, right? You liked Khan, so here's more Khan." Into Darkness made the same basic mistake. TWOK only works because the Enterprise crew is aging - this is clearly and explicitely the entire point of the film. It's not even the subtext - it's the neon-signed theme of the picture. I understood it when I was 12 years old and saw it in the theatre. But Kurtzman, Orci and Abrams somehow missed this- I assume because they don't understand the connection between character and story. It's a good thing nothing Kurtzman has ever done is actually part of Star Trek ...
I think we should have Q fix all the timelines as a sacrificing gesture and goodwill to all kind. Which will allow Star Trek to build a new cast with new territory to explore and new challenges, keeping all LEGACY characters as WAS and erasing bad timelines that create these terrible paradox's, remove current politics out of our shows, write new stories about different ships that make a difference, without hurting LEGACY timelines or stealing core personality traits from Captain Kirk. The foundation of Star Trek is already Paved, let's boldly go where no one or the many has gone before!
All 3 Timelines can all Co Exist Together.
I buy the idea that there are three timelines and I am O.K. with that, however another channel I saw also covered this topic and suggested that the tonal shift in "Picard" means it's part of the new timeline and not the original, and that the cannon problems in "Enterprise" also likely put it in the new timeline as well. I think I accept that reasoning a little more.
Picard made references to SNW and Disco details. So it’s definitely under a version of that future. In same way lower decks and Picard are interconnected.
Brannon or Braga said that enterprise splits off of changes made in First Contact. Hence Borg being discovered earlier.
Also Enteprise made several direct reference to 1990s eugenics wars even calling it 20th century so it’s most definitely not on Disco timeline.
@@Catman498except the events of first contact always happened and are referenced in Voyager. Ya can't keep screaming "new timeline" whenever things don't fit the way you like
I stand by that the post first contact timeline is the “third” timeline including ent-disco-snw. The temporal cold war is a part of post-contact. Earth got a tech boost from the borg.. giving bigger ships, more advanced technology, and time travel technology.
The problem with that is, you get Discovery S3 & S4 referencing stuff from Picard, so that SHOULD place Picard in the Discovery timeline too. However, there's the issue of the Enterprise-D, Voyager etc showing up, so that would have to mean Enterprise, Discovery & Strange New Worlds would therefore fit in the original timeline.
This is my head canon.
@@vegeta50024 stuff discovery references could easily just be corealized events from both timelines. For instance, the riker we see running the simulation that is ent, must be a version of riker from the new timeline, but in this instance, he is also filling the position he did in the tos timeline
@@nathannopants3157 So in other words, alternate/parallel timelines have both similarities and differences to each other. Some things change while others stay the same.
Until you realize Voyager referenced first contact, y'all need to stop jumping through hoops trying to justify your hurt feelings
11:55 It's easy to place Khan in the EXACT time and space he is supposed to be.
Choose ANY Entities you want to do that.
Q, 29th Century time agents watching over Khan's ship, The Travellers and their Secret Agents, Organians, etc, etc...
Dragging the ships together through space so they meet.
I prefer to think of Lower Decks as being in the Prime timeline based on all of the references and continuous need for them. The Time Portal was also inter-universal as well similar to the Guardian. This makes inter-universal crossovers possible.
I like this.
Up until the crossover episode, it visually referenced tos, rendered in tas style once and adapted tos aesthetics for old ships and species numerous times.
There were Kelvin-timelime Klingon weapons in one episode, and Trekyards has a video about it. Saying that, I give Lower Decks a pass, as it doesn't try to insist itself on anyone.
Boimler noticed the changes. Spock smiling and Spock dating Nurse Chapel. LD is definitely prime timeline.
@ThatIckyGuy I wish he had commented on the size of the Enterprise, though.
Data in TNG sort of confirms this very thing when he explains about quantum realities. I think it's the episode where Worf is jumping between realities.
also includes Emterprise, as on Lower Decks. Riker talks about holodeck program featurimg Archer's crew.
not if they dont complete the interconected Spacial Interphrase arc which Connects both Star Trek Enteprise Mirror Darkley and the events of the Tholian Web I mean common theres no way in hell that piece of mirror Enterprise-TOS cannon lores gonna be retconned until the final part of that mirror universe TOS defiant storry is gonna be completed
Time after timeline, If the acting and story are good, we will watch it.
They've been trying to do a Starfleet Academy movie or series in one form or another for more than 25 years. If they had started a show when they first made noises about it, at least one of those academy members would be an admiral by now.
They should have done it right after Enterprise. They had the CW and those teen-angsty shows were still all the rage.
There's only one timeline that's canon and that's the one that ended in 2004. The rest is vandalism, but it's very easily fixed. You have a de-aged Daniels show up in a two minute scene that's similar to the finale to the Temporal war in Enterprise Season 4. That's it, everything Kurtzman-Trek wiped out of existence, the TOS/TNG timeline restored and we move forward and never speak of it again.
I don't have that much time in my entire life to sort this all out enough to care. If I'm entertained, I'm good.
If Spock never used the Anti-time formula in the episode The Naked Time, the Enterprise would have been destroyed, the Doomsday Machine would still be at large, and V'Ger would have destroyed Earth.
In short, Spock created the first known divergent timeline back in 2266. That might be a timeline worth exploring just to see what would change.
Hated the "Enterprise" theme song but loved the show.. Each series had its up and down episodes, but were overall liked and accepted by all viewers, even those taking place in "alternate timelines".
As I recall, when the Voyager crew arrived in the 90's at Future's End, neither was the eugenics war. ????
The difference between the Kelvin timeline and the current Prime timeline is that the former was free to alter events as much as the creators desired, while the latter has to stick to the classic canon as a general rule, if not in every particular. "Arena" may play out differently in a few ways, but "Arena" will still occur in some sense. But "Arena" didn't happen in the JJ movies: Bones was already delivering Gorn babies before it would have happened.
Chicago Joe here... I wonder if it was about money? It's always about money! Jumping on the "Multiverse Wagon" just might save this franchise also if they went back in time to the 60'S in SNW S2... It would have costed millions to film a period piece. Would have been great to see.☝
Picard is also in the Discovery timeline. In Picard season 1, it's Pike's Enterprise that's shown in the hologram that floats above Picard's head at Starfleet HQ. Maybe season 3 is back in the prime timeline, given that the USS New Jersey is a TOS-style constitution class ship.
I think a lot of people would rather throw out or ignore that S1 & S2 of Picard happened in order to make S3 fit. However, it's hard to just throw them out without keeping in mind that the Stargazer & the Excelsior II classes exist from S2 of Picard.
@@vegeta50024 Was it Admiral Janeway or Chief O'Brien (or both?!) who suggested ignoring temporal mechanics? Personally, though I enjoyed Picard season 3, I'm OK with it fitting into an alternate timeline. But if it's in the prime timeline, the ships from season 2 can still fit into a prime and alternate timeline. Per the logic of Strange New Worlds, by the 25th century time could have healed itself enough for the Federation to look similar in both timelines.
I think the time travel arc from S2, plus the multiple casualties in 2024, must've pushed it back into the Prime Timelime. All those deaths should've had a massive effect on the future, even just the unlucky guy from the bar.
I have always rejected the idea that the Narada time-traveling caused the JJ timeline to diverge... since the technology was already significantly different.
Because Enterprise had already changed the timeline with the Xindi attack.
@@LoveableNerd Well, the timeline did reset itself in the beginning of the 4th season and Daniels said everything is back to normal now. The Xindi never showed up or were mentioned again after that... except in the Mirror Universe.
@@DarinRWagner ah that. That Mirror Universe part happened thx to the fate of the TOS Defiant and the Spacial Interphase arc That ofc is the most accepted and underrated story which has inter-connected both Star Trek Enterprise and TOS only because of what happend to the TOS USS Defiant after it vanished from the Prime Timeline via spacial Interphase.
@@FLAME4564 Sounds like a bunch of fans who wish they were calling the shots pulling stuff out of their asses to me.
Knocked it out of the PARK.
Thanks Chappy!
No, this is not canon. It's just an excuse why these producers wanted to completely destroy Star Trek in favor of their own agendas. Star Trek the Original Series is the one and only!
While I am late to the party (by a year!) I appreciate the different timeline theories if only because I can pretend that most of new Trek can exist in its own corner of reality. My personal perspective of the Timelines is:
(Prime) This is TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, and VOY as well as the first 10 films.
(ENT) This timeline is begun by the Borg incursion in First Contact and generally results in technology being developed faster up to an approximately 24th century level. This is ENT, STD, SNW, Lower Decks, and PIC
(Kelvin) This is begun with the destruction of Romulus and includes the JJ films 2009, Into Darkness, and Beyond.
The SNW changes with Khan could be attributed to the temporal wars seen in ENT.
I don't know enough about Prodigy to put it into a specific timeline.
Of course this setup doesn't really factor how STD/SNW Spock becomes legacy Spock for the start of the Kelvin Timeline - I suppose the Supernova could have happened in both the Prime and ENT timelines.
I always had said paramount only needed to say New trek is in Calvin. But Paramount always doublet down that new trek is the Main Timeline. And I never understood why. Ok PR because Trekkies hate Calvin. Personal, I would support your point of few. But Bad Robot / Paramount doesn't seam to see It the same way.
We can argue their are 4 timelines, the 4th being in Star Trek Online. The online timeline exists where Data was supposed to have been revived before the Kelvin Timeline was created and at a time, Data was Captain of a Starship forgot which one. We can say the events that created the Kelvin Timeline made a split, one where Data was revived early and the one he was revived at a much later date
14:43 i would hate Nu Trek about 98% less if it was confirmed to be a new timeline. It is 100000% the best way forward.
I agree wholeheartedly
It’d still be awful but at least one could ignore it and mentally divorce it from what is really good
@@devmag52 thats where a timeline involving the Mirror Universe comes in if it has a piece of tech that allows it to traverse universes and Timelines thats where things get interesting
Gotta disagree,the new trek has been giving us a new golden age of trek
Picard is in the Nexus since Generations. The Nexus gave him what he wanted, to be the Hero so it gave Jean-Luc Guinen who gave Picard the best Captain in Starfleet History TNG. "We're always have Paris" explained what Jean-Luc always wanted. To be special and he feared to be ordinary. The Nexus or Space Heaven gave him a Timeline where his crew do not die.
I think of it like comics where it's more of a sliding timeline so I don't have to thing to hard about it lol😂
Riker and Troi (TNG) exists in the LowerDecks, as does Tom Paris (Voyger), so they exist in 'New Trek'. The Picard Foundation is mentioned as well.
nuTrek is incomparable with the original continuity.
Let's not forget that season 3 had a Strange New Worlds shuttle outside the unfortunate Starfleet recruitment center, which throws the timeline theory for a loop. At the end of the day, Star Trek is Star Trek, and discussions of timelines are part of the fun for fans (as long as we stand together and continue talking to each other).
Awesome. I agree with your assessment 👍. They just need to accept that they create a new timeline and that fans will decide if they are okay with it.
Exactly! It's okay to do your own thing. The fans will let you know if it's good enough :)
It fixes things. Not only have time travel and infinite parallel universes been a premise of the show for a long time, but the introduction of the Temporal Cold War in Enterprise made these outcomes inevitable. Having multiple timelines rationalizes Discovery quite well: I can accept Discovery being in its own timeline and having little or nothing to do with prime Trek. Similarly deviations from Strange New Worlds are fine. The Kelvinverse is not an outlier anymore, and it can exist on its own terms. You can do whatever you want as long as the prime is consistent with itself. If they had said from the beginning Discovery was its own timeline, my reception (and I'm sure the response of many fans) would have been different.
I'm just so happy to see more star trek on screen, and new fans joining the franchise!
All the nonsense involving the Eugenics Wars aside.. Has anyone considered the fact that shoving the events of WWIII that far forward would probably cause the Vulcans to arrive in the middle of the nuclear holocaust, and decide Earth wasn't worth the trouble? RIP First Contact.
Nothing wrong with Alex's and Akiva's decision to make multiple timeline, but, I think it was bad PR that they did not think that us astute Star Trek fans wouldn't recognize that the changes they created wouldn't be noticed. I think that A/A should do some PR with us, and bring Terry Metalas's Legacy to life.
Yep, honesty needed and removal of their arrogance towards fans who are very familiar with and respectful towards Roddenberry/Berman Star Trek and their writers.
@@mjohnson2737 That's the keyword, ARROGANCE from Kurtzman and co.
Considering its not a new timeline, just UPDATED for the 21st century and not using cardboard props. theres nothing bad about it.
There are WAY more than thee canon "timelines," it's always been official, and I'll prove it in one word: *Mirror, Mirror*.
(Is it two words if I use the same word twice? I think *not*. HAH!)
Not enough? Okay, how about the alternate timeline that Spock presented on his tricorder (because they were IN it) in *City on the Edge of Forever*?
What about the alternate universe that we saw in *The Alternative Factor*?
I’m not a massive fan who keeps up with every detail but I have to say SNW has brought back that feeling I got from OG, NG, DS9, and the Abrams movies. It’s fun, exciting, and has me excited for every new episode ( except the singing one ) so I’m down and I hope it goes further. I wanna see Kirk in that Captains seat again with the crew showing me new stories that remind me of my childhood.
Nerds need to stop projecting their hatred for their moms onto women. That's all I am gonna say
OG? NG? Do you mean TOS and TNG?
@@nextlevelenglish5858 I just meant Original Series so I called it OG. In the US OG is a commonly used shorting of the word “ Original “.
@@ericconradgordon its called TOS and the next generation is TNG.
@@nextlevelenglish5858 ahh sorry if I didn’t use correct Star Trek grammar. Didn’t mean to offended.
Time - the Final Frontier. But also the First Frontier. Basically, it's just all of the Frontiers.
A frontier that we shouldn't really want to touch.
There is four timelines. Picard season 2 created a new timeline when Agnes became a Borg in the past. Picard season 3 never mentioned the Borg aligning with them because it was the original timeline.
These are people we look up too, people that became figures in our lives that we take into adulthood and the industry either knew what they were doing or are figuring it out now. I want that character to do all the great things I wish I could right? And they do. For a long time, now as an adult I want that to reflect my own life again. All the struggles, and the realization of passing on the torch.
In some fan stuff I did (blending together several Scify franchises), I quickly came to realize ST's timeline no longer makes any sense, so I fudged things by creating a new dating system 100 years off from our current Gregorian one, and thus, I had a 'lost century', during which time you could have several Earth wars, a few space wars, and even a 'Belter' period a'la The Expanse. Since this was a tumultuous time in Earth's history, it has been 'covered up' by a clandestine group, and most people are completely unaware of the duel dating system and the missing century.
I have enjoyed strange new worlds just because I've accepted it's a separate timeline in my head cannon at least it is separate and therefore I can enjoy it Star Trek Picard season 3 I would say is in the original timeline and lower decks get across over in between
They'll end up retconning themselves out of existence. Does this mean that each season of Picard is set in a different timeline?
Its the only way to reconcile s1-2 with s3
That one line from tomorrow, tomorrow and tomorrow is exactly what was needed
Honestly i don't consider nutrek 2009 and up to be canon but since they say nutrek is a different timeline i think i am ok with that .because the actors are great but the story and everything else needs work. Plus, i think its just best that gene and berman trek is left in the past where it is safe and is not disrespectful. but i am indeed sad for prodigy and Terry's trek hope paramount reconsiders but we still need section 31 can't wait for that 🎉
I wish they had kept true to one main timeline and to the original concept of Gene Roddenberry’s concept of a better world and lessons learned from each episode.
I think the alternate timelines show how one simple decision made by one person can splinter off and create multiple different timelines, a causality effect I have long been interested in.
Yes, like it actually would be what Akiva Goldsman says he wants-“…humanity to be able to dream their way into the Federation”
I've been mentally filing all that post 2005 Star Trek as alternate reality Trek since the 2009 movie. Granted I liked Picard season 3 and have accepted SNW, there is no way it takes place in the same reality as the pre-2005 stuff. What I don't understand is why they are so afraid of making new Star Trek that takes place after Nemesis but features no ties to pre-existing characters.
You don't start giving any meat until ~40% into the video! Come ON man!
I don’t have a problem with a third timeline. They sort of dealt with this in Star Trek episodes of the past that every action and every timeline can cause repercussions in a different timeline and so on just let us know which timeline we’re dealing with in this episode and I don’t have a problem. I just wish I could watch some of these new Siri‘s, but I’m stuck in a place doesn’t got me get that channel.
Here is my question. Are the Q multiversal and does that mean John DeLancie exists in them all?
Hmmm, good question. We haven't seen a Q in the new Timeline, but one would think so!
He was name dropped, along with Trelane, in the LD crossover.@@ThePopcast
The events in Discovery were SO contrary to what I believe is the core of the Federation and Starfleet that, after a few episodes, I couldn't watch it anymore. Until I told a friend that I could only watch it if it was in a Mirror Universe (there are more than one, for sure). He said, "Yes! Do that!". And then it all came together and I could watch it. Then Michael's speech in the finale restored the spirit of Star Trek. Watching SNW, I really wanted to put it back in the TOS universe; so I ignored Discovery references. But, La'an made that nearly impossible. THEN the Gorn. THAT made it impossible. I had to put it back in a Mirror Universe. The La'an and Khan episode officially made it a new timeline! Now I can enjoy Pike's (alternate) story. Thank you for the detailed analysis!
You are singing my song! Chapel has a totally different personality and look, and so does Spock. The technology and interiors I could accept but Spock and Chapel having an open affair does not really jibe with TOS. I hope they make it though. Despite all the hype Spock is annoyed with our gallant Lt. Kirk.
Chapel's rendezvous with Korby is cut short by the Gorn attack. Boimler tells her "this Spock isn't right." What more do you need? I must point out that the attempts to kill Khan being thwarted by "time" is nuts. Khan is the will of God and you cannot change it. There. I said the forbidden word. As to "official". What does that mean exactly? Has a producer admitted it?
I am a Gene Roddenbury time line Person. Too many times Paramount officials let new folks coming into Star Trek Poductions to redo Star Trek. I against what Mr Abrams did.
I wish Paramount would sell Stat Trek because they allowed too many times lime changes. hopefully New owners will settle on & stay with Roddenbury;s time line.
Moving the time forward or backward. Postponing time pushes it back?
There's as many timelines as there are viewers. Even within TOS there are inconsistancies and mistakes, and though there are some official, "approved" responses addressing these, often fans just relied on "head canon", an answer based on their personal interests and understandings. Head canon can also address things are aren't actual errors, but simply problems that arise when a viewer just doesn't like a story or addition to what has occured. To me, there's only three Star Wars films. I don't care what Lucas or Disney says - the hours upon hours of Star Wars produced since Return of the Jedi are just not part of my Star Wars. Luke never ended up a bitter, angry old fart on a distance world. That's just stupid and could never happen.
The same is true of Star Trek. To me, the only thing that exists past Enterprise is Picard season 3. I even have to purge most of seasons 1 and 2 because they just don't make any sense at all given literally EVERYTHING that came before. To enjoy season 3, I just need to accept that somehow Picard found himself in an android body at some point. I may wish that never happened, but it's integral to the plot. So that happened, but that's pretty much it. The mistake is thinking that the IP owners own my imagination. Only I get to decide what is canon for me. Sure, it's disappointing that all those hours of new Star Trek programing don't actually exist, but I won't let a group of crappy writers take control of something I love. They don't own Trek. I do. It's in my heart. It's in my imagination. Kurtzman & Co are just temporary stewards. When they have left to go work on the third reboot of Gilmore Girls or whatever, I'll still be here. So there is no Star Trek until Matalas gets Legacy on the air.
Discovery? SNW? Never heard of them...
The Vulcan Science Directorate has concluded that time travel is impossible.
Captain Jonathan Archer: Well, good for the Vulcan Science Directorate.
Accountants: Excellent, now we'll spend an eternity on keeping track on all the timelines ..
God: Oh boy :ø)
I don't have a problem with divergent timelines, because those are an established tool of science fiction since the first divergent timeline stories, even before science fiction used that name.
What I have an absolute problem with is creators who stubbornly refuse to admit when they use a different timeline.
Example: why has Pike's original bridge crew never been mentioned in SNW? Jose Tyler could be related to the original Ash Tyler from The Cage, and he could be really mad about losing his relative to the Klingons, but we never see it.
Commander Thelin from TAS "Yesteryear" could be an Aenar like Hemmer, but we haven't heard about Thelin in any other canon story.
So... If we can get an admission from Kurtzman, Goldsman, Bird, etc that these are indeed new timelines and not an attempt to mess with TOS, that would make great sense and be true to science fiction. The fans should be happy with that (as a fan of TOS since 1968, I know I would be).
They cannot admit something they do not intend to do! It was never meant to be a different timeline but a TOS prequel with some visual and timeline tweaks here and there. It works for me...perfectly....
It's just denial because they're afraid fans will reject it if its a wholesale new timeline.
Yet, by definition that is what they've done.
Now they can persist in calling this new ever-morphing reality the "Prime" timeline. That's fine.
But it's not the original TOS-TAS-TNG-DS9-VOY timeline.
@@darthgormagander9643
I would like to point out that tng was the one that moved the timeline of The augments war and ww3 to mid 21 century instead of the late 20 century with dialogue. And you can follow it up with ds9 and voyager. Ds9 Bell riots happened in 2020s and voyager being sent to 1996 earth. In both instances there was no ww3 in the 90s. And when tng enterprise e time traveled in first contact ww3 just ended and first contact took place in 2063.
The reason why Star Trek timeline shifted was because people beliefs of the future was grim in 1960s and they thought we would be in a ww3 by the 1990s. But when tng was being made in the late 1980s there was no ww3 and the future looked better so they moved ww3 and to make it mirror what was going on in the real world.
Also hate to tell you this but tos, discovery, snw, and tng share the same timeline.
I’ve always thought of “new” trek as existing in another timeline. That was only way I could my sanity about how bad it is. I think the timeline branching is a good way to get around things but I hate the extra time lines. I want the real Star Trek timeline of TOS and Berman era Trek. The stewardship of Star Trek needs to be given to Terry Matalas. Picard season 3 was such a relief. To see real Star Trek again was a great experience. Everything that paramount wants to do with Star Trek is just apes throwing their feces against the wall. They are the only ones who want Star Trek: 90210 or Section 31. Give us Star Trek: Legacy. I want to see Captain Seven of Nine, Ensign Crusher/Picard, And the crew of the Enterprise G boldly go where no one has gone before.
And place it in the original timeline. A few details from the new stuff could be brought in if it's intelligent, fits well, and doesn't break original timeline canon.
As for how bad the new stuff is, that's the result of arrogance, incompetence, negligence, and complete lack of respect for the franchise and its fans.
exactly. When I saw the Uss New Jersey with the TOS style ship I knew it was Matalas's silent way of saying fuck you to Akiva and company. 😂...I'm sure they are all friends but I think Terry respects what came before way more than akiva
This is what happens when people making a series don’t read about the series.
The Kelvin event also created an alternate parallel prime universe, which is where Picard takes place. Picard isn't in the Prime (original) timeline. That timeline has TOS to ENT.
Wrong. Picard is the TNG timeline.
@@MJG206 Double wrong. The I.R.W Nerada was the one responsible for the Destruction of the USS Kelvin itself hence the name Kelvin Timeline while some say PIcard would be the prime TNG Timeline heh sure whatever but the JJverse earned the name Kelvin TImeline cuz of Nero's Mining ship that was responsible for it.
@@FLAME4564triple wrong, Picard is in the only prime timeline. The same one as tos, tng, etc. To say otherwise is to be like a flat earther
I've been pointing this out repeatedly - but so many people are still determined not to accept reality. Despite what some seem to think, Trek has always recognised mutliple timelines and these have been front-and-centre of many storylines - and there are many, many more than four timelines.
When writers, show runners and producers think the fans aren't smart enough for their versions it is pure projection. The majority of viewers are more versed in the lore and more intelligent than 99% of Hollywood.
Nerds need to stop projecting their hatred for their moms onto women. That's all I am gonna say
@@suzygirl1843 good, because you're speaking nonsense.
@user-kc2fu8iw3v Seriously? What have the Red Pill Manosphere nerdals been talking about since Fresh and Fit rose up to mainstream status? Sounds like mommy issues to outsiders, and American males don't take rejection from women well. 99% Mass Shooters exist because they felt rejected by girls and society. Please grow up. I used to want to go to the West but not anymore. China is so peaceful and I rather they lead the globe this century
And just to further make brains hurt.. has anyone noticed that the United States Space Force emblem/seal look an awful lot like Star Fleet badging? And further does anyone really thinks THATS a coincidence... Yep, write it in! USSF become UNSF, becomes Star Fleet.
Enterprise is probably my second favourite show next to Voyager (DS9 is a close second) and I’d say Enterprise started the third timeline.
To quote Brannon or Braga it was First Contact and Borg Incursion that progressed technology ahead from crashes Borg tech.
@@Catman498 yes heard this, so yes, to be fair, First Contact started the third timeline
@@danielhogston
With some additional confusing bits like in Enterprise there we’re some episodes that we’re specifically clear that Eugenics wars we’re still in 1990s so at least pre-contact history was mostly in line with the original timeline but only before the point of first contact.
not to mention the events of TOS eppisode the Tholian web since ST Enteprise Mirror Darkley has lore connected to that particular TOS eppisode
The concept of a multiverse is ruining so many franchises. Star Wars, Star Trek, Marvel, DC. The multiverse was a mistake.
We have multi-verses because no one in 2020's Hollywood wants to continue what someone else started without making it their own aka unrecognizable.
Hasn’t the timeline kinda been messed up since Voyager went back to 1996?
@ThePopcast there is someone from the future who can say without this mysterious character disclosing all the information to me, that many trek fans are not supporting it. It's not what they expected. The third timeline called the Red Angel Timeline provided by the time traveler, is what it's called.
The illusion is that there is a prime timeline. There isnt. Every episode is in its own continuity with many being similar or happening but any minor inconsistencies are solved by understanding every episode is a variance. TNG did an episode Parralels
That dove into the multiverses existence.
You're 100% right about current Trek being a new timeline, though I'm afraid the showrunners see all of it as part of the new timeline. They intend that Picard is in the new timeline, despite how little sense that makes if these timeline changes affect First Contact, which Picard and crew visited.
In Picard S1, when Picard goes to Starfleet there is a hologram of a Constitution Class above him, which is the Discovery version. Now this could be explained away that this was a design variant for that class even in the Prime timeline, just not the Enterprise.
Then in Picard S2 we have that tease of Adam Soong with the Project Khan folder. I think the showrunners intended this to imply that Soong created Khan, hence the young boy in SNW S2, however it could alternatively be interpreted that the Eugenics Wars already happened and he was looking at old files on Khan to start messing with Augments (which nicely flows into his descendant Arik having them).
Finally, there are tie ins in Discovery. There's a reference to how Admiral Picard was transfered into a synth body, and also footage from Unification of Nimoy Spock. We could write these off and say that by the 24th century, time had corrected to be very similar to the Prime Timeline.
For me, I choose to think Prime is ENT, TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, Movies 1-10, LD, Prodigy and Picard, while Discovery and SNW are a new timeline. LD crossing over was also between realities, hence why Boimler being caught off guard by several aspects.
Now what's also interesting is all the other timeline changes that kind of get glossed over such as:
-TOS, TNG, GEN, the start of DS9 and VOY, and the first few minutes of FC take place in an original timeline where Zephram Cochrane and Lily Sloane were in the Phoenix and the Borg didn't attack in the past. Presumably a version of Enterprise happened without "Regeneration"
-Daniels comes from a future version of history where the Xindi did not attack Earth as he says none of those events were supposed to happen. In that timeline the Delphic Expanse grew quite large.
-Also related, the Kelvin Timeline must have branched off the Prime Timeline AFTER the Sphere Builders started manipulating the Xindi. This is because Krall/Edison referenced fighting in the "Xindi War".
honestly, it almost feels like the oeiginal timeline is the one where romulans tried slowing down human progress, ignoring the eugenics war, mostly focusing on the technologies (bigger ships, holograms and stuff, etc)
"If it's an official product, it's canon. you can't just ignore stories you don't like."
Uh huh. Threshold. Large parts of The Animated Series. The 'no female captains allowed' policies in TOS.
I think you can.
Personally I love exploring alternate timelines - some of my favorite episodes are Yesterday's Enterprise, Future Imperfect and ALL the Mirror Universe stories! I would gladly watch Disco and SNW without knowing they're in a new timeline, but I appreciate all the rationalizing that they are (and found Tomorrow , Tomorrow and Tomorrow VERY satisfying!).
Theres also the pre and post yesterdays enterprise change. Before yhe change Klingons were part of the federation. After they were not.
And alt-timeline Tosha Yar made an impact far beyond that episode it turned out.
I agree this makes most sense as a new timeline. But I also agree with OG fans that we need more stuff written from that hopeful, optimistic original timeline where Starfleet were the good guys and humanity had moved on to become better.
It's amusing the lengths that some people go about the entertainment business and the pretense of being an expert about silly future forecasting. Here's the deal: Star Trek doesn't predict the fure - it can't. THe 21st century will emanate totally differently.
I want to see the timeline where Pike and Crew have an encounter with Gary 7.