I think videos like these that are more for the normal, every day rider, is what's needed. MOST of us are just hobby riders and don't want or need to spend a fortune on a bike, but it is so hard to sort out what's important and what's not so important to spend extra money on for a everyday, all around bike.
@@cjohnson3836 I wondered about the contact points, better saddle, decent grip tape, better bars. It may not take much at all to significantly improve the ride experience. It could potentially include what it would take to make it more road ride friendly if the user was to take it for a sportive or other road based event.
@@rustymac83 Those are hard as they're not upgrades so much as personal fitting. I ride a $30 synthetic saddle that, for me, is orders of magnitude more comfortable than the $130 CF saddle I'm now trying to sell. So you can't even necessarily say its a cheap vs expensive thing.
I really think a 1600 aluminum bike serves as a great bike, and you can destroy anyone with the appropriate fitness, and obnoxious kit. I just don't think the added money is worth it, I am even going back to aluminum on my mtb. Get out ride your bike and have fun.
@@frankchan5547 You can always upgrade for cheaper since you can hunt for used parts. I literally got a used 3D printed Fizik saddle for 70% off from a $400 MSRP for my gravel bike.
I think you could probably upgrade the cheap bike to make it feel significantly more comfortable, while still keeping the total price under £3000. Stuff like tubeless, better tyres, new saddle and handlebars could already make a massive difference and get it much closer to the feel of the expensive bike.
Tubeless won't make any difference as such. Better wheels (especially this), tyres (especially this too), saddle, lighter handlebars, stem and seatpost. You won't believe how huge difference wheels and tires can make, focusing onl;y on this aspect gives you totally different bike.
You could easily knock 2-300g off with some new not to expensive wheels. Wheels on low price bikes are often near 2kg combined. It would be interesting to see how much you need to spend to get it below 10kg.
@@ekrano to get my stock 1300$ Kross Vento 5.0 105 disc from 9.3 kg to sub 8 kg i needed to spend : 100$ on tubeless tires/tire sealant/tape and valves. 700 $ on discounted 40mm carbon wheelset (1580g) about 150$ for high end carbon seatpost, also discounted. About 150$ for lightweight fizik saddle. About 100$ for very lightweight 3T stem and about 150$ for 38 cm Vision Metron handlebars. Something about 1300$ in additional cost to transform this bike into totally different machine. Total price 2600$, 7.8 kg no pedals no bottles, 8.2 kg with pedals/bottles/saddle bag/garmin/sensors/lights and guarantee that all parts are top notch.
@@michadebicki6534 Get Elite wheels on black friday for about 800 euro. They weight 1300 grams. Even better deal. All the items listed can be found secondhand for half the price. Pretty cheap to transform a alu bike. But at that point i'd rather buy a Chinese frame (including carbon 1 piece cockpit + seatpost) for 550 euro's on velo-build.
@@YannickLB quality alloy frame will be overall much better in terms of handling, road feel and stiffness balance compared to cheap carbon frame and will offer pretty much the same ride quality as medium-level carbon frame. Any real difference and advantage for carbon will be between high end carbon frame versus quality alloy. I rode and raced them all still having a good or bad day makes much bigger difference for the final outcome than any tech in the bike I could possibly have.
Scott doesn't get the respect it deserves. They do make quality bikes and they do innovate whereas I feel a lot of the other brands play it safe and copy the trends. Besides, Scott bikes are SOOOOOOO beautiful looking
Like the format. Like that you both provide good reasons when providing opinions on the various aspects of the bike. I think adding a 3,000 pound version for comparison would be great! You both did a nice job.
My experience of the "cheap" vs expensive is quite a bit different so I suspect this is one of those situations where the results of other comparisons would vary a lot. I'm currently riding a 2013 Giant Defy 1. That's an aluminum frame with carbon fork and seat post. It originally came with a mix of 105 and unlabeled Shimano components. I've upgraded everything that wasn't to 105 and put much better wheels on. The best part was everything I added, with the exception of the wheels which I bought used, was second hand new...components people had bought for projects and never got to them...so effectively new but at very reasonably prices. This past fall I had an opportunity to spend a few hours riding a 2022 Defy 1 I was considering buying. (It had been a rental from a local shop and they clear out their rental fleet at the end of each season.) Full carbon and full (mechanical) Ultegra. The cost of the new bike would have been about 5 times what I paid for my older bike. The difference? The shifting on the new Ultegra was simply glorious...just incredibly smooth and quick. Everything else? Meh. Perhaps I just don't ride far enough or fast enough, or I am just not sophisticated enough to detect the differences, but there wasn't much in it. I dream about finding a bike that is as big a leap ahead as my Defy was from it's predecessor, but the upshot is I'm still riding my 2013 bike. I'd love a new one, and I'd love to have that Ultegra groupset, but for now I'll spend the money on trips with the old bike.
As a lifestyle choice, I think you are spot on: better have some spare money to spend on actually using the bike and maybe more time cause some frugality allowed fir cutting back of work hours than having a priced possession that you don't have time using. And that stresses you out cause everything that breaks/wears out is so expensive, so you'll end up enjoying yourself less.
I agree almost entirely. My bike is a 20 year old cannondale alloy cx frame with a headshock, which comes in at 11.6kg. Unfortunately, it can only accommodate rim brakes. Apart from that, I'd ride it forever. So I'm on the lookout for something else, still alloy, but hydro discs so I can stop when it rains.
Silca.. good choice. From what I can tell this is a serious company. Meaning they won't sell any kinda of crap just to make profit. Silca sincerely strives for quality in all the things they sell. Respect.
Yes, thank you for mentioning Sora and Tiagra. It seems far too many people forget about how big these groupsets are and immediately jump to 105 and above. My first bike was a Sora (and Microshift) build and my commuter bike was Tiagra, both incredible pieces of kit for the money, and I’d bet a big part of Shimano’s sales. Look forward to some future videos on them…
Brilliant. I normally bore of this type of chat about the ins and outs of which equipment is better than which. But you treated it fairly and meaningfully. I would welcome stuff like this. And you've got me inspired to design a bike for myself. I'll start with a good, light frame and equip it with mid-range components such as Tiagra which you mentioned. That could be the sweet spot. The biggest trick for me would be to find a suitably lightweight frameset and wheels on a low budget.
I’m riding a 2017 Scott Speedster Gravel 10 since new. 105 everything. 50/34 chainring. 11-34 11spd cassette. 35-622 WTB Exposure 34 in the rear. 37-622 WTB Byway 40 up front. Stock seat, stock bars. Honestly it’s been great. It’s been my main bike. I feel like I got my money’s worth out of it. I just did a 75km gravel trail this week on it. Light gravel or gravel paths or trails is the extent of it for me. Just need enough tire to feel confident cornering in the gravel at speed for me. Once I go past 35c in the rear I find it to be more sluggish than I like. I use a 1x XC for offroad and chunky dirt roads. And a basic 3x steel hybrid on the daily around town that I don’t worry about locking up.
GRX groupsets - totally agree. Great around performance. I mean I love my Di2 on my road bike but I never feel like anything isn't working absolutely bang on the money when I'm out on the gravel / winter bike (£1800 orbea Terra) - pound for pound its an absolute belter.
I got the 2021 scott speedster with a Tiagra group set. The have made it more gravel-ish in over two years, terms of tire clearance, geometry (and handlebar). My version is pretty aggressive and „raw“, for a gravel bike but Scott offers very good performance for the money
A lump of chromoly steel gravel Vitus bike bought for £1k from wiggle in 2017, then gradually upgraded to grx800, with tubeless 650B wheels, 2.0" tubeless tyres, zero carbon parts and it weighs the same 11kg, WTF Scott???
Great vid. I have a 2021 Cube Nuroad EX gravel bike that was about £1700 when I brought it.. I immediately ditched the home branded wheels and brought (eventually 3 pairs!) new hoops with the main ones being DT Swiss GR1600s and some Mavic all road pros while of course making them tubeless. Bar tape, saddle and chain were also swapped out to parts I trust and like.. It rides like a far more expensive bike now despite only changing the points of which I touch on the bike and where it touches the road. The 3 sets of wheels have varying Shwalbe G-one tires varying from Allroads to ultra bites to use depending on weather/terrain I am riding on... One thing I also did was change the standard Shimano brake pads to ceramic pro ones made by Disco brakes. A mega cheep upgrade that improves the performance massively. Final note.. As an ex MTB racer and someone who has toyed with road bikes for 35 years I LOVE gravel bikes and in fact find it faster on bumpy towpaths and mild single track to my mountain bikes.
The Eagle AXS casettes are like $500, the XPLR are like $225. You save a few grams. You can change the 'sponginess' of SRAM brake distance with a set screw (depends on the line where the screw is), but my brakes are as snappy as your GRX in the video. It is really quick to do, you can pratically do it while riding. This is generally in the instructions that people throw away because they think they know better.
Totally agree on your comments about modern Tiagra. It may be 10 speed, but works just as nice as 105 or Ultegra. A new bike buyer than can test ride different options will see for themselves.
Agreed. I switch between bikes from 9 to 11speed and the only difference I see is if you are picky on cadance. Other than that I see no gains. Smooth shifting comes from proper tuning.
I ride a Cannondale SuperSix with 105, and having never owned anything better than my dad's 40-odd year old Raleigh Record Ace, it absolutely blew my mind. The shifting is almost instant, the brakes are strong as I'd ever need, it works well enough that having never ridden anything Ultegra or Dura-ace or whatever, I'm genuinely not sure what (if any) noticeable difference there would be.
Nice video guys ! I run a Giant ALX mtb with shimano and a carbon cinelli Zydeco gravel bike with campagnolo groupset . Both completely different in terms of riding . Gravel bike doubles up as a road bike and mtb great for real off road 👍
Interesting one, law of diminishing returns really. Would like to see that 3k GBP bike compared to the 8k GBP one. I personally think the 3k bike will be best bang for your buck 👍
I was riding a circa 2006 road bike until about a year ago, thinking "I don't need a new road bike, there just isn't that much difference". The bike fits me well and doesn't seem to hold me back on group rides. But, with that bike now well past 15 years old and on its 2nd, 3rd or 4th iteration of components, I finally broke down and purchased a new road bike with all the new goodies, wide / carbon rims and wide tires, disc brakes, Di2. I went on to get a 3D printed saddle, new stem and bars (to fit my body better) and swapped out the 52-36 chainrings for a 50-34 combo (quite hilly where I live). Making all of these changes had me questioning if I would have been better off just buying a frame and building it up exactly how I wanted, and if I were to do it again, I probably would go that route. Anyhow, with the bike completely dialed in and $10K US into my investment, I NEVER ride the old bike any more. The new bike is just about perfect. OK, did I need to spend as much as I did? Probably not, but I don't care, I love the new bike, fits me like a glove and it's flexible enough to do both road and gravel. I have ridden crap bikes for long periods of time in the past, and there is nothing wrong with that. You get out there, do your reps, get fit, have fun. With that said, the experience of riding my new roadie has provided some new perspective.
I actually own an EQ version of Speedster Gravel from last year. With fenders and all, it is even heavier. However, it was a very conscious decision, and with a few likewise planned upgrades (including going tubeless with the biggest tires the frame would swallow) it is a bike that can be nicked and banged, takes on a beating and keeps on coming. Removable rear rack, frame bag, bento box, and it is a hell of a commuter that you won't be too scared to lock to a post somewhere in the town. What you've said about the groupsets, I can only agree with. The 4700 series Tiagra that came on mine is such a satisfactory ride! Threw on a bigger cassette in the back to get at least a bit of "minus" gearing, found a deal on hydraulic brakes with levers, and the damn thing just sails through anything for 3000km already. City, Gravel, light singletrack, snow and sleet in the winter, ridiculous cobblestone descents... You CAN be satisfied with a cheaper bike.
I have a 2022 Scott Speedster Gravel 20. Great bike. I changed the saddle to a SELLE ITALIA SLR Boost Superflow TM that I had previously purchased (also in 2022). I will also change the wheels to carbon ones (this is the basic change). In some time I will change the seat post to a carbon one and maybe the steering wheel, because I don't quite like its geometry in a low grip. It can be lightweight aluminum. After these minor changes, the bike will weigh 9.5 kg. Size S
I got Addict Gravel 30, which is the fourth in line, with GRX800/GRX600, plus Zipp303s. That is just below 3000 pounds bike. I would say up to this level, the difference in performance is huge, but from 30 (with carbon wheels) to Tuned, it must be pretty close.
I have the same Addict 30 with Zipp 303s’ and I couldn’t agree more. Difference can’t be much from the tuned overall. Such a great road and gravel monster.
I have a marin gestalt gravel bike with 2x9 sora groupset and i absolutely love it! It gets the job done both on and off road so I would definitely agree that the cheaper groupsets are overlooked
Im glad you have done this comparison. I've got the Speedster Gravel 20. It's pretty much the same as the 30 and has an 11 speed groupset. I've swapped out the saddle and handlebars and bought a carbon wheelset. I've saved over 1kg, which is great.
As I wrote above, I have Scott Speedster Gravel 20 as well. 2022. Great bike. I changed the saddle to a SELLE ITALIA SLR Boost Superflow TM that I bought earlier (also in 2022). I plan to change the wheels to carbon ones (this is a basic change). In some time I will change the seatpost to a carbon one and maybe the steering wheel, because I don't quite like its geometry with a low grip. It can be a lightweight aluminum handlebar. After these minor changes, the bike will weigh 9.5 kg. Size S
I own a Genesis CDA 20, aluminum frame, steel fork, swapped up the wheels for a DT Swiss Gr 1800 Spline pair, Conti Terra Trail 40 mm tubeless tires and Shimano Sora 2x9 with mechanical disc brakes. I’ve had it for 3 years now and taking into consideration that i was a total beginner cyclist when i bought it and that i am an okay cyclist now, i’d really like upgrading to a higher end bike. Never the less, my Genesis has been miss handled, beaten to the dirt, the gravel and untamed roads and i’ve gotta say i have rarely felt limitations. I ride with other people and my cheap bike doesn’t stop me from winning sprints and hills against dentists who own a 3000-4000€ worth gravel bike 😁 mine was worth 800€ when i bought it.
Parcours tubeless wheels, same tyres as the addict tuned, a carbon bar & seatpost, a saddle of your choice, and you're not far off that £3k bike. That's where the sweetspot is - perhaps add a GRX 11 speed mech to go 1x with an 11-42 10 speed cassette to make it as close to the carbon bike. Pull ratios for 11 speed mech and 10 speed levers were the same for my Tiagra 4700 shifters and R7000 derailleur
I'm a London Cycle Courier and I use a Tiagra groupset (disc) with a Fyxation Quiver frame, which is a gravel design if you're not familiar with it. Tiagra is decent but you have to keep an eye on the calibration and the chainwheel selection mechanism broke internally but tbf that was probably after around 18,000 miles heavy use although it shouldn't really happen. After a bit of haggling with a side-order of charm I got this replaced on warranty. It happened to the gear selector too but my mechanic fixed it himself with a bit of ingenuity. I'm probably not a good example as I do incredibly high mileages each week compared to commuters and weekend mamil's. But when someone who reckoned he knew a thing or two said to me "Tiagra is sh*t", I just replied he had no idea and was mistaken. I got a discount (Courier perk!) on the groupset but in my world it was still quite a lorra money! Love the channel 👍😁.
Content of this sort is exactly what folks need to see. While I drool over so many of the incredible bikes I've seen on Francis' and Jimmy's respective channels, they are simply outside of my financial reality. Added is the physical reality of weighing 98 kilos; I have to be far more circumspect about rider weight allowances and braking power. Finding the sweet spot between performance, durability, and price is incredibly confusing in the current market.
Very interesting indeed. I upgraded my touring bike to 2 x 10 speed Tiagra, had to get the GRX rear derailleur due to Tiagra cable pull being different to all other 10 speed (STI levers). It is great, reliable, sound, slightly clunkier than 105 but not so much that I regret buying it - and the cost was WAY cheaper than 105. For my money the 10 speed GRX with Tiagra shifters is plenty workable, on an awesome frame with great wheels I think it would make a formidable bike that would be a better option in terms of cost while retaining the lovely (yes lovely) performance of the higher end frame.
GRX 400 levers are pretty much tiagra with hydro brakes. Slightly beefier hoods but honestly it’s fine. Not brilliant but fine. I think the comparison here was done well. Because an 1800 gravel is a usualy an good solid bike. 1 tier down and you really start to get into crappy builds. That said my merida 400 rentals have great bartape.
Excellent video Francis! Have been scouring YT for in-depth info on the Scott Speedster Gravel range especially for geometry comparisons but this by far is the most info I’ve got on the bike. May I suggest the following upgrades to bring down the weight substantially? 1. Parcours wheelset - For my riding, I would choose the 1,400gm Ronde with the Hutchinson Overide 38mm tyres (tubeless, of course!) to save a bit more weight while retaining functionality. Standard X25 wheels are approx. 2100gm. 2. Carbon seatpost - More comfort, slight weight saving. 3. Carbon handlebar/handlebar-stem combination - Again, more comfort, slight weight saving. 4. Selle Italia saddle - Definitely one of the best around, I personally use the Selle Italia SLR Boost Endurance, the one you use is lighter still. 5. If you had to go all the way and really make it a focused build for a particular type of riding then a single Rotor crank. Even without number 5, I reckon that this could be a shade under 10kg but with a vastly more comfortable ride quality. Looking forward to a future build and as always, amazing content man!
I'd be curious how the cheaper bike felt after swapping wheels/tires with the expensive one? How much closer to that higher-end feel can you get with just a wheel/tire upgrade? Would probably cut a decent chunk of weight as well
The black tape looks much better than the white tape! Never get the cheap one! If you do, you’ll eventually buy the expensive one anyway. I ride a Sage Titanium Barlow frame with GRX 800 mechanical shift (11 speed) one by, a Chris King bottom bracket (T47) and head set. The wheels are Roval Terra C with Panaracer Gravel King SS @35mm. I ride less on gravel than pavement. They’re quite fast on the road and hard pack conditions but not so good for mud. If it’s muddy I stay home which is more of a option in Southern California than the UK except when you were here!😂 We’re having the coldest and wettest winter we’ve had in quite a few years. My bars are Roval Terra and probably have the shortest reach and drop of any carbon bar and are very comfortable. The stem and seat post are Thomson Elite. Very strong! This build is a bit over $6000.
Get the cheap one, upgrade the parts and you'll have a premium bike for a fraction of the costs. Like with my Sora equipped alloy frame gravel bike a few upgrades later, 1x, XT-Ultegra mullet setup, the weight is 8.62kg. And the frame is more durable than a carbon one. Ride feel is incredible.
There is a fix for the spongey Sram brakes. I battled with them for two years. My LBS spoke with Sram and worked out a fix that finally made them crisp braking. They were thrilled to figure out the fix. I was glad to finally have brakes that worked.
I absolutely hammered a a new Tiagra groupset on an old Scott Roadster (2007 frame I think?) that I rebuilt in 2019. I took that bike everywhere road, knarly gravel, bike packing, well over 2000miles and it never failed me (other than pads, chain, cassette / consumables etc.). It's so overlooked.
Great video Francis! I've been on and off watching your channel for a few years and I have to say they've been getting even more amazing every month. I'm now watching pretty much all of them these days. Definitely agree with some other comments here - great analysis, and it would be great to see a follow-up video throwing a mid-range bike in the mix.
Great videos, but can we have a repeat with both bikes on the same tyres, and pressure (tubeless) as I can't help but feel that a great deal of what you were feeling was down to this. Sure the £8k bike is better, but I think you over emphasised it in this very entertaining video.
I currently ride a 2021 scott grave speedster with a ultegra swap and gator skin tires. Personally i think this is the perfect set up of road/light gravel riding. I am able to keep up just fine with my carbon road buddies and gravel junkies. Also great for long endurance rides!
incidentally i ride a scott gravel speedster 30 (2020 model). nothing to complain, frankly. now that i've replaced saddle and handlebars, i can't wait for the weather to get warmer.
I run 2 bikes mainly: Planet x free ranger carbon frame. (9.5/10kg) mullet setup with some rival component, force 1 cranks, eagle gx chain ring, e13 11s 9-46 cassette with 650b tubeless 50or52-584 tyres and ritchey venture comp pro bars Dahon smooth hound, alumunium frame (8-8.3kg) 1x 9 sora rt3000 with praxis carbon cranks/4iii powermeter, force1 chainring 50T, 11-34 9s XT cassette, 32-406 tyre and ritchey venture pro comp bars
Riding gravel on an old 2014 Giant tcx allux 2 slr frame. Wheels are alloy rims with dt swiss 240 hubs and a xd driver. Just build it up with sram rival axs shifters and an sram eagle axs deraileur and a 10-50 casette. Loving it. Tires are gravelking ss 38mm setup Tubeless with orangeseal. Zero flat wheels in two years 🤞. Keeping up and the cost of the build. Is 1400 £. And i have a spare groupset to sell. The crankset is an old one, a Shimano 5700 10 speed, but i have mounted a narrowwide woolftooth 42t chainring to it. Doing the job just fine.
I like Jimmy's "if you can ride the more expensive one, do it!" I've gotten so used to my road bike being under 7kg that I've had to rethink other bikes & what's acceptable to me. I'm also getting older and I don't have the same power & time to ride as I did.
100% agree. I ride a titanium gravel bike on the road n the winter and summer off road. My normal road bike is a Pinarello frameset I got in the sale and built up with di2, carbon everything and its under 7kg. There is a huge huge difference in the feel and quality of using the bike.
Great vid Francis. Interesting and well put together. I ride an Orro Terra C gravel bike with a 2x 105 groupset. I've spent most of my time riding with road guys but I'm doing my first gravel event this year and I can't wait to see how I get on.
As a long term Orro Terra C rider, I would suggest fitting a Grx rear derailleur and an 11/34 cassette. You’ll be surprised how well it would perform with those 2 changes
Very Good!! I back in the 70s I would buy a custom frame and average group set and I really liked the ride. I find it difficult to find a deal on a good frame that could be built up like the old days. The frame cost is close to a bike cost yet the choices for biking are so complex. I look for parts and try putting various combinations together. I agree with your saddle,bar and tires. The best point you made I think is the cost of ridding with expensive part for all parts just need to be replaced and repaired. I do my own work but still very expensive for tools and parts.
Great vid! I'd be curious to see if carbon seatpost, handlebars and wheels would change the way this 1 800 bike feels. Is it worth to buy carbon parts for an alloy bike? And compare it to good set of tubeless tyres - which is better investment? And what happens, if you combine carbon parts and good tyres?
On my cheap carbon winter bike I found it a really harsh ride and was upset with myself for not spending a bit more for a quality frame. Then I tried the VCLS seatpost from my summer canyon on it and transformed the ride completely. Now I WANT to ride it rather than feel like I have to when it’s wet. It also has a Frankenstein group set with SRAM force levers and brakes, Rival mech & cassette, GRX chainset with 105 left side power meter, Ultegra pedals & KMC chain. Works just as well as when it had a full Force groupset!
Very interesting video, love the format. I bought an aluminium canyon roadlite 7 with Ultegra last year. Tubeless, flat bars and 9 kilos it's one of the best bikes I have ever owned. It cost €1400.
The alloy bike in this case is a tubeless conversion away from being a bike you can just ride forever without upgrade, you have the basics of hydraulic brakes, clutch derailleur and decent gearing for climbs and the ability to run decent width tires.
Very entertaining video! Keep up the great work! Regarding your question at the end, I have a Canyon Grail AL 6 from last year, so the same entry level group set, quite comparable in about any aspect actually, but a bit cheaper. Basically the cheapest gravel bike they offer. I am pleased with the performance as one who just wants to use the bike the be fit, not racing or anything.
for most people $2,000 worth of bike is PLENTY of bike. even doing grand fondos, and crits. and this is from a bloke who has a $6k titanium gravel/ all road bike that takes up to 47mm 700c tires or 650 x 2.1" - and has two carbon wheelsets. for nearly 1/3 to 1/2 the price I could have had a bike that worked basically the same - but we all fall victim to vanity and consumerism. Also that Scoot seems heavy AF for $8,000....8.2kg ?? My titaniun bike with a full GRX 810 mechanical and carbon wheels is like 7.8kg...
The answer is then, change the bars and tape, remove the front mech, convert to tubeless and put on slightly wider tyres on the £1800 bike. One could put lighter parts on it if one wishes, but the 1x convert will get it to under 11kgs (if you are sensible with the tl fluid).
I like the format, I have a similar tier bike as the low end one and it has gotten me through several thousand miles of fun and wind over the last few years. Biggest difference for me over my old bike was the hydraulic brakes and it actually fitting sorta right
Thank you for the excellent content. At the moment I would recommend the Stevens Camino Pro carbon, to every gravler (with a 1-speed crank). Weight 8.5 kg, Easton EC90 SL Carbon crank and Shimano GRX 810 / 812 components. Wheels DT Swiss G 1800 Sline. For 3099 euros (2730 pounds)
A nice addition would be comparing stock tyres to then matching the tyres of the two bikes so it eliminates getting a fair comparison between the two machines. I ride two gravel bikes with 40mm and 45mm tyres so know there is quite a difference in ride quality.
It’d be great to see you compare a £3000 bike to the top of the range - and then see how you could upgrade the £1800 to be as close to the others as possible (without spending more than £1200 obviously)
Your remark about replacement costs is very important on a mtb/cross/gravel bike. I remember how fast the components on my cross bike would deteriorate in one winter season. Just a few races. So glad I was running cheap 9-speed stuff. It lasts longer and is much cheaper to replace.. On one course, many expensive bikes where shedding their deraillers in the mud. My trusty Deore derailler was fine. Well, gravel is not mud or cross..
I can relate to the brakes... my Sram Force Etap Levers are always troubling me, like after every 1500km i have to do something, like bleeding, or seting up the range differently and never felt or braked as good as my shimanos.... with my 2 years old Shimano 105 wich have been ridden for 14000km i just had to change brakepads, thats it. It just works
I liked this video-format. The Canyon Inflite AL was a super nice 1500€ alloy bike. It weights below 9kg and came with a nice sram 1-11 and carbon fork. Luckily I grabbed one in 2019 because the alloy version inflite was discontinued last year. I have risen thousands of kilometres on it and find that it rides super nice. And the price was even in 2019 great for a below 9 kg bike.
I have a speedster gravel 30 with 2x11 GRX and love it. Changed the saddle but otherwise kept stock. My mate has a mid range carbon gravel bike, cracked seat stays after a few months and has to wait 6 months for his replacement frame. IMO alloy is the way to go for off-road
First, I wanna say I really enjoyed this video. Watched it a few times. Honest and fair assessment of both bikes. The few points you highlighted, saddle, bar, and tyre set up, are all things rider specific, as we know, we all usually swap them out straight away. Tubeless set up would have been good for the test tbh. I'd love the £1800 Scott, for my needs, perfect, unfortunately I'm jobless atm, but in time, I hope to buy a gravel bike. Great content mate, as usual. Thank you 👍
I Liked the comparison, some very interesting insights. Currently riding: - 2021 carbon Canyon Ultimate CF SL 7, rim brake, 25mm Continental GrandPrix tires, just under 8kg - 2011 Giant XR1 Roam (my 'winter bike', a sort of hybrid) Straight handle bars, with Shimano Deore XT 3x9 - stuck in the big ring, so actually a 1x9 - with hydraulic Magura rim brakes and 42 mm Pathfinder Pro tires ~ 12.5 kg (wild guess)
I have a earlier Gravel bike that came with Sora, I’ve over the last 5 years upgraded the groupset to get hydraulic braking, and last year new wheels to go tubeless both where dramatic upgrades. The gearing is barely noticeable, slightly better range with Tiagra cassette 34 vs 32/11 both shifted well.
I still think the gravel category will be evolving quite a bit the next few years. I think suspension will take over. If the bikes are being ridden off-road - suspension will be a huge benefit.
I've been riding gravel since gravel became "a thing". I've not bought a carbon gravelbike, but have experimented with steel and titanium. I was fortunate to buy al;l three bikes right before Covid and the "supply chain issues". I've used 105-5800 frankenbike setups , now called "mullet" with mtb casettes and Roadlink adapters, and 1x and 2x. I like the GRX setup best, with a 2x GRX 600 on the newest Lynskey GR300 bike, which cost just over $3000. when I bought it. I like it very much, and have bought two extra wheels sets so I can run road, gravel 700 and gravel/mtb 650b. It is super versatile, and I don't think I hit 8000 yet for all three bikes. I'm disgusted with the bike industry and the prices I see thesde days. The cheaper Scott bike is a good place to start, needs on;y mintor upgrades and most people can't begin to afford the "better" bike anyway.
Had the same issue with Shimano XT brakes Vs SRAM level ultimates. The Ultimates I couldn't get to not be spongy, took it to bike shop who set it up properly with the bleed block and still half a lever of travel before any braking, shop overfilled them and now they finally feel right. Going back to the Shimanos with servowave takes some getting used to after riding with SRAMs that are setup properly and I end up locking up a lot on the first few rides, but they are much better once used to them because they take so little effort compared to SRAM. I think the carbon levers also have more flex in them which adds to the spongy feel.
Great video guys! 2 years ago, I brought a vitus gravel bike, spec’ed with sram apex. Love the bike, except the brakes. I've always riden Shimano, never had an issue, but these sram apex brakes never feel quite right. Even after multiple bleeds, switching to uberbikes pad, etc, etc.
Fantastic Episode - Hands Down, Excellent Just seeing Jimmy's face was worthy of an $8,000 price tag Now here in Colorado, it was literally impossible to purchase a Scoot Bike. Scott doesn't wholesale from the UK and you MUST go through a bike shop. That Totally Blows!! Because of you FC and your videos, I tried in 2021 and half of 2022 to locate a Scott Addict 20 or 30 Gravel. Forget It So I purchased the RIBBLE SL Gravel. I am only bring this up because the tires and rims were tubeless ready but shipped with a tube. I did pay the bike shop $28 US dollars per wheel to switch over. I am very pleased with the ride and the "standard" parts are top shelf. Again, my point is that this episode kicks A$$ and is very entertaining. Well Done Boys, Cheers
I think the difference maker is the carbon and more specifically the carbon layup on more expensive frames. can make different parts of the frame stiffer or more supple to absorb some vibration and flex where they need to. and they can be so light too.
Interesting comment regarding Tiagra and Sora groupsets at the end. I've had Tiagra and Ultegra on road bikes and they're both great. It comes down to indexing and adjustment. My gravel bike has GRX and I'm always fiddling with the cable tension!
Got the Speedster Gravel 20 with Syncross Capital x40 carbon wheels setup tubeless. I found that to be the perfect sweetspot between price and performance. Even lower speced road and gravel bikes these days are SO good!
After putting out 15k on my road bike, I'd probably opt for the alloy gravel bike, but I'd go with carbon rims, my favorite saddle, and the power pedals as well as Cinelli bar tape because contact points matter more than frame weight if it's not your primary bike.
Bombtrack Hook EXT (bought for 2800€) : steel frame with a Rival 1 groupset. Changed the freehub body for an XD one. I quite like the smallest cog at 10t, gives quite a bit more range than the 11t Shimano uses as a smallest cog.
Really dreamed of getting a Scott Addict Gravel for a long time. It's just not readily available where I.'m from sadly plus the sizing is just too large. But really great to see these bikes in action. Currently running a Ceepo Rindo as my main bike and love it. Keep at it mates. Cheers! Ride safe.
like the format and conclusions - I have a mid range Canyon Grail cf SL 7 with carbon frame and GRX 800/600 sells for $2700 and is the sweet spot - upgraded wheels with Hunt gravel race for $500 and weight down to 8kg - agree I wouldn’t spend more on an off-road bike
I bought my 2021 Cannondale Topstone 1 Alloy for $2300. Shimano GRX 11 speed group set. The WTB rims came taped which was nice. At that price point my budget allowed me to buy Garmin Rally XC200 pedals which I like very much.
I definitely like the idea and format of this video. I do think the "budget versus expensive" comparison is a bit saturated. As others said, you bringing real..."from a rider" view of the differences like you did is a nice differentiator, and, I think extending to building up and riding that middle-ground bike would be cool. Whatever you do, if you keep your personal enthusiasm, and keep including your stellar mates, it'll come out well.
I’ve got the speedster gravel 30 so was great to see the comparison. The tyres supplied with it are not tubeless compatible though. My main reason for going for the speedster over the addict was versatility. I use the bike on occasion to take my daughter on so the ally frame means I can safely ride with a child seat. I then also have a second wheel set, Zipp 303’s for when I’m doing big rides to save some weight and add style points 👍
I have a first generation aluminium Cannondale Topstone with SRAM Apex 1x, it cost around £1500 and whilst it’s not super light I have no fears about sending it over rough terrain and breaking something. All the components aren’t too expensive to replace and the frame is tough, my one complaint is that the Apex 1 brakes are awful (in comparison to those on my road bike) and every time I ride I wish they were better. If I wanted to go faster I’d get fitter, but also I’d be spending more and getting a carbon bike that’s lighter and probably a bit aero. The value for money between £1500 and £2500 is amazing right now!
more like this please. That question of finding the sweet spot is of relevance to most of us, IMO. My guess is that beyond like £4k you're getting really diminishing performance/weight returns. What do you need to spend to get a "£4k" bike from AliExpress purchases?
My gravel bike from planet X cost 1800, full carbon frame and fork, full SRAM force 1X groupset, clearance for 700x45 tires or even bigger in 650. The wheel/tire combo it came with wasn't great, sold them for 100 and then spent a bit more on decent wheels and tires (prime alloy and wtb Riddler's) still spent under 2000 and it weighs 9kg. Bargain. Also had 0 mechanical issues.
great video & like the format. Well put together. running self built mason bokeh, ekar (group set). it was the only components i could source during lockdowns.
I think videos like these that are more for the normal, every day rider, is what's needed. MOST of us are just hobby riders and don't want or need to spend a fortune on a bike, but it is so hard to sort out what's important and what's not so important to spend extra money on for a everyday, all around bike.
@@frankchan5547 Agreed but imho Start with the tires first. Good tires are a huge benefit to every type of bike and rider.
It'd be great to see what upgrades you'd put on the budget bike to bring up the performance and see how close you can get it to the $3k bike feel
This would make a very interesting follow up episode - best bang for the buck upgrades.
Probably wheels. And just converting tubeless. Once you get over about 40mm tubes actually carry quite a bit of weight.
@@cjohnson3836 I wondered about the contact points, better saddle, decent grip tape, better bars. It may not take much at all to significantly improve the ride experience. It could potentially include what it would take to make it more road ride friendly if the user was to take it for a sportive or other road based event.
@@rustymac83 Those are hard as they're not upgrades so much as personal fitting. I ride a $30 synthetic saddle that, for me, is orders of magnitude more comfortable than the $130 CF saddle I'm now trying to sell. So you can't even necessarily say its a cheap vs expensive thing.
Some light hoops with a stiff hub makes a world of difference. Can even make a cheap-ish frame feel quite lively :)
I really think a 1600 aluminum bike serves as a great bike, and you can destroy anyone with the appropriate fitness, and obnoxious kit. I just don't think the added money is worth it, I am even going back to aluminum on my mtb. Get out ride your bike and have fun.
@@frankchan5547 You can always upgrade for cheaper since you can hunt for used parts. I literally got a used 3D printed Fizik saddle for 70% off from a $400 MSRP for my gravel bike.
@@frankchan5547 Cheap doesn't mean bad. One of the best mtb groupsets that's not in the high end 12spd range is also one of the cheapest.
@@frankchan5547 Aluminum is simply better than carbon
@@cjohnson3836 agreed.
@@frankchan5547 why's that
I think you could probably upgrade the cheap bike to make it feel significantly more comfortable, while still keeping the total price under £3000. Stuff like tubeless, better tyres, new saddle and handlebars could already make a massive difference and get it much closer to the feel of the expensive bike.
Tubeless won't make any difference as such. Better wheels (especially this), tyres (especially this too), saddle, lighter handlebars, stem and seatpost. You won't believe how huge difference wheels and tires can make, focusing onl;y on this aspect gives you totally different bike.
You could easily knock 2-300g off with some new not to expensive wheels. Wheels on low price bikes are often near 2kg combined. It would be interesting to see how much you need to spend to get it below 10kg.
@@ekrano to get my stock 1300$ Kross Vento 5.0 105 disc from 9.3 kg to sub 8 kg i needed to spend : 100$ on tubeless tires/tire sealant/tape and valves. 700 $ on discounted 40mm carbon wheelset (1580g) about 150$ for high end carbon seatpost, also discounted. About 150$ for lightweight fizik saddle. About 100$ for very lightweight 3T stem and about 150$ for 38 cm Vision Metron handlebars. Something about 1300$ in additional cost to transform this bike into totally different machine. Total price 2600$, 7.8 kg no pedals no bottles, 8.2 kg with pedals/bottles/saddle bag/garmin/sensors/lights and guarantee that all parts are top notch.
@@michadebicki6534 Get Elite wheels on black friday for about 800 euro. They weight 1300 grams. Even better deal. All the items listed can be found secondhand for half the price. Pretty cheap to transform a alu bike. But at that point i'd rather buy a Chinese frame (including carbon 1 piece cockpit + seatpost) for 550 euro's on velo-build.
@@YannickLB quality alloy frame will be overall much better in terms of handling, road feel and stiffness balance compared to cheap carbon frame and will offer pretty much the same ride quality as medium-level carbon frame. Any real difference and advantage for carbon will be between high end carbon frame versus quality alloy. I rode and raced them all still having a good or bad day makes much bigger difference for the final outcome than any tech in the bike I could possibly have.
Scott doesn't get the respect it deserves. They do make quality bikes and they do innovate whereas I feel a lot of the other brands play it safe and copy the trends. Besides, Scott bikes are SOOOOOOO beautiful looking
Like the format. Like that you both provide good reasons when providing opinions on the various aspects of the bike. I think adding a 3,000 pound version for comparison would be great! You both did a nice job.
My experience of the "cheap" vs expensive is quite a bit different so I suspect this is one of those situations where the results of other comparisons would vary a lot.
I'm currently riding a 2013 Giant Defy 1. That's an aluminum frame with carbon fork and seat post. It originally came with a mix of 105 and unlabeled Shimano components. I've upgraded everything that wasn't to 105 and put much better wheels on. The best part was everything I added, with the exception of the wheels which I bought used, was second hand new...components people had bought for projects and never got to them...so effectively new but at very reasonably prices.
This past fall I had an opportunity to spend a few hours riding a 2022 Defy 1 I was considering buying. (It had been a rental from a local shop and they clear out their rental fleet at the end of each season.) Full carbon and full (mechanical) Ultegra. The cost of the new bike would have been about 5 times what I paid for my older bike. The difference? The shifting on the new Ultegra was simply glorious...just incredibly smooth and quick. Everything else? Meh. Perhaps I just don't ride far enough or fast enough, or I am just not sophisticated enough to detect the differences, but there wasn't much in it.
I dream about finding a bike that is as big a leap ahead as my Defy was from it's predecessor, but the upshot is I'm still riding my 2013 bike. I'd love a new one, and I'd love to have that Ultegra groupset, but for now I'll spend the money on trips with the old bike.
As a lifestyle choice, I think you are spot on: better have some spare money to spend on actually using the bike and maybe more time cause some frugality allowed fir cutting back of work hours than having a priced possession that you don't have time using. And that stresses you out cause everything that breaks/wears out is so expensive, so you'll end up enjoying yourself less.
I agree almost entirely. My bike is a 20 year old cannondale alloy cx frame with a headshock, which comes in at 11.6kg. Unfortunately, it can only accommodate rim brakes.
Apart from that, I'd ride it forever.
So I'm on the lookout for something else, still alloy, but hydro discs so I can stop when it rains.
Silca.. good choice. From what I can tell this is a serious company. Meaning they won't sell any kinda of crap just to make profit. Silca sincerely strives for quality in all the things they sell. Respect.
You two are the best duo on youtube. You have take Jimmy to a loooong bike packing trip with you. That guy is a genuinely funny.
Yes, thank you for mentioning Sora and Tiagra. It seems far too many people forget about how big these groupsets are and immediately jump to 105 and above.
My first bike was a Sora (and Microshift) build and my commuter bike was Tiagra, both incredible pieces of kit for the money, and I’d bet a big part of Shimano’s sales.
Look forward to some future videos on them…
Still riding my winter bike built from parts bin, tiagra shifter never missed a beat(shift) :)...
Agreed. Just started riding with a Sora equipped Scott CR1. Pretty amazing compared to the Raleigh I rode in high school!
Brilliant. I normally bore of this type of chat about the ins and outs of which equipment is better than which. But you treated it fairly and meaningfully. I would welcome stuff like this. And you've got me inspired to design a bike for myself. I'll start with a good, light frame and equip it with mid-range components such as Tiagra which you mentioned. That could be the sweet spot. The biggest trick for me would be to find a suitably lightweight frameset and wheels on a low budget.
Nice to see you guys doing videos together again! keep 'em coming!!
I’m riding a 2017 Scott Speedster Gravel 10 since new. 105 everything. 50/34 chainring. 11-34 11spd cassette. 35-622 WTB Exposure 34 in the rear. 37-622 WTB Byway 40 up front.
Stock seat, stock bars. Honestly it’s been great. It’s been my main bike. I feel like I got my money’s worth out of it. I just did a 75km gravel trail this week on it. Light gravel or gravel paths or trails is the extent of it for me. Just need enough tire to feel confident cornering in the gravel at speed for me. Once I go past 35c in the rear I find it to be more sluggish than I like.
I use a 1x XC for offroad and chunky dirt roads. And a basic 3x steel hybrid on the daily around town that I don’t worry about locking up.
thank you for the video Francis it's always great when Jimmy's on board
GRX groupsets - totally agree. Great around performance. I mean I love my Di2 on my road bike but I never feel like anything isn't working absolutely bang on the money when I'm out on the gravel / winter bike (£1800 orbea Terra) - pound for pound its an absolute belter.
I got the 2021 scott speedster with a Tiagra group set. The have made it more gravel-ish in over two years, terms of tire clearance, geometry (and handlebar). My version is pretty aggressive and „raw“, for a gravel bike but Scott offers very good performance for the money
A lump of chromoly steel gravel Vitus bike bought for £1k from wiggle in 2017, then gradually upgraded to grx800, with tubeless 650B wheels, 2.0" tubeless tyres, zero carbon parts and it weighs the same 11kg, WTF Scott???
Great vid. I have a 2021 Cube Nuroad EX gravel bike that was about £1700 when I brought it.. I immediately ditched the home branded wheels and brought (eventually 3 pairs!) new hoops with the main ones being DT Swiss GR1600s and some Mavic all road pros while of course making them tubeless. Bar tape, saddle and chain were also swapped out to parts I trust and like.. It rides like a far more expensive bike now despite only changing the points of which I touch on the bike and where it touches the road. The 3 sets of wheels have varying Shwalbe G-one tires varying from Allroads to ultra bites to use depending on weather/terrain I am riding on... One thing I also did was change the standard Shimano brake pads to ceramic pro ones made by Disco brakes. A mega cheep upgrade that improves the performance massively.
Final note.. As an ex MTB racer and someone who has toyed with road bikes for 35 years I LOVE gravel bikes and in fact find it faster on bumpy towpaths and mild single track to my mountain bikes.
The Eagle AXS casettes are like $500, the XPLR are like $225. You save a few grams.
You can change the 'sponginess' of SRAM brake distance with a set screw (depends on the line where the screw is), but my brakes are as snappy as your GRX in the video. It is really quick to do, you can pratically do it while riding. This is generally in the instructions that people throw away because they think they know better.
Totally agree on your comments about modern Tiagra. It may be 10 speed, but works just as nice as 105 or Ultegra. A new bike buyer than can test ride different options will see for themselves.
those mid range shimano groups are great and have loads of features they used to miss like lever reach adjustment, paddle shifter levers etc
Agreed. I switch between bikes from 9 to 11speed and the only difference I see is if you are picky on cadance. Other than that I see no gains. Smooth shifting comes from proper tuning.
...& upgrade as you go along if you wish.
I ride a Cannondale SuperSix with 105, and having never owned anything better than my dad's 40-odd year old Raleigh Record Ace, it absolutely blew my mind. The shifting is almost instant, the brakes are strong as I'd ever need, it works well enough that having never ridden anything Ultegra or Dura-ace or whatever, I'm genuinely not sure what (if any) noticeable difference there would be.
Nice video guys ! I run a Giant ALX mtb with shimano and a carbon cinelli Zydeco gravel bike with campagnolo groupset . Both completely different in terms of riding . Gravel bike doubles up as a road bike and mtb great for real off road 👍
Interesting one, law of diminishing returns really. Would like to see that 3k GBP bike compared to the 8k GBP one. I personally think the 3k bike will be best bang for your buck 👍
I was riding a circa 2006 road bike until about a year ago, thinking "I don't need a new road bike, there just isn't that much difference". The bike fits me well and doesn't seem to hold me back on group rides. But, with that bike now well past 15 years old and on its 2nd, 3rd or 4th iteration of components, I finally broke down and purchased a new road bike with all the new goodies, wide / carbon rims and wide tires, disc brakes, Di2. I went on to get a 3D printed saddle, new stem and bars (to fit my body better) and swapped out the 52-36 chainrings for a 50-34 combo (quite hilly where I live). Making all of these changes had me questioning if I would have been better off just buying a frame and building it up exactly how I wanted, and if I were to do it again, I probably would go that route. Anyhow, with the bike completely dialed in and $10K US into my investment, I NEVER ride the old bike any more. The new bike is just about perfect. OK, did I need to spend as much as I did? Probably not, but I don't care, I love the new bike, fits me like a glove and it's flexible enough to do both road and gravel.
I have ridden crap bikes for long periods of time in the past, and there is nothing wrong with that. You get out there, do your reps, get fit, have fun. With that said, the experience of riding my new roadie has provided some new perspective.
I actually own an EQ version of Speedster Gravel from last year. With fenders and all, it is even heavier. However, it was a very conscious decision, and with a few likewise planned upgrades (including going tubeless with the biggest tires the frame would swallow) it is a bike that can be nicked and banged, takes on a beating and keeps on coming. Removable rear rack, frame bag, bento box, and it is a hell of a commuter that you won't be too scared to lock to a post somewhere in the town.
What you've said about the groupsets, I can only agree with. The 4700 series Tiagra that came on mine is such a satisfactory ride! Threw on a bigger cassette in the back to get at least a bit of "minus" gearing, found a deal on hydraulic brakes with levers, and the damn thing just sails through anything for 3000km already. City, Gravel, light singletrack, snow and sleet in the winter, ridiculous cobblestone descents... You CAN be satisfied with a cheaper bike.
I have a 2022 Scott Speedster Gravel 20. Great bike. I changed the saddle to a SELLE ITALIA SLR Boost Superflow TM that I had previously purchased (also in 2022). I will also change the wheels to carbon ones (this is the basic change). In some time I will change the seat post to a carbon one and maybe the steering wheel, because I don't quite like its geometry in a low grip. It can be lightweight aluminum. After these minor changes, the bike will weigh 9.5 kg. Size S
I got Addict Gravel 30, which is the fourth in line, with GRX800/GRX600, plus Zipp303s. That is just below 3000 pounds bike. I would say up to this level, the difference in performance is huge, but from 30 (with carbon wheels) to Tuned, it must be pretty close.
I have the same Addict 30 with Zipp 303s’ and I couldn’t agree more. Difference can’t be much from the tuned overall. Such a great road and gravel monster.
I have a marin gestalt gravel bike with 2x9 sora groupset and i absolutely love it! It gets the job done both on and off road so I would definitely agree that the cheaper groupsets are overlooked
Im glad you have done this comparison. I've got the Speedster Gravel 20. It's pretty much the same as the 30 and has an 11 speed groupset. I've swapped out the saddle and handlebars and bought a carbon wheelset. I've saved over 1kg, which is great.
As I wrote above, I have Scott Speedster Gravel 20 as well. 2022. Great bike. I changed the saddle to a SELLE ITALIA SLR Boost Superflow TM that I bought earlier (also in 2022). I plan to change the wheels to carbon ones (this is a basic change). In some time I will change the seatpost to a carbon one and maybe the steering wheel, because I don't quite like its geometry with a low grip. It can be a lightweight aluminum handlebar. After these minor changes, the bike will weigh 9.5 kg. Size S
I own a Genesis CDA 20, aluminum frame, steel fork, swapped up the wheels for a DT Swiss Gr 1800 Spline pair, Conti Terra Trail 40 mm tubeless tires and Shimano Sora 2x9 with mechanical disc brakes. I’ve had it for 3 years now and taking into consideration that i was a total beginner cyclist when i bought it and that i am an okay cyclist now, i’d really like upgrading to a higher end bike. Never the less, my Genesis has been miss handled, beaten to the dirt, the gravel and untamed roads and i’ve gotta say i have rarely felt limitations. I ride with other people and my cheap bike doesn’t stop me from winning sprints and hills against dentists who own a 3000-4000€ worth gravel bike 😁 mine was worth 800€ when i bought it.
Parcours tubeless wheels, same tyres as the addict tuned, a carbon bar & seatpost, a saddle of your choice, and you're not far off that £3k bike. That's where the sweetspot is - perhaps add a GRX 11 speed mech to go 1x with an 11-42 10 speed cassette to make it as close to the carbon bike. Pull ratios for 11 speed mech and 10 speed levers were the same for my Tiagra 4700 shifters and R7000 derailleur
I'm a London Cycle Courier and I use a Tiagra groupset (disc) with a Fyxation Quiver frame, which is a gravel design if you're not familiar with it. Tiagra is decent but you have to keep an eye on the calibration and the chainwheel selection mechanism broke internally but tbf that was probably after around 18,000 miles heavy use although it shouldn't really happen. After a bit of haggling with a side-order of charm I got this replaced on warranty. It happened to the gear selector too but my mechanic fixed it himself with a bit of ingenuity. I'm probably not a good example as I do incredibly high mileages each week compared to commuters and weekend mamil's. But when someone who reckoned he knew a thing or two said to me "Tiagra is sh*t", I just replied he had no idea and was mistaken. I got a discount (Courier perk!) on the groupset but in my world it was still quite a lorra money! Love the channel 👍😁.
Content of this sort is exactly what folks need to see. While I drool over so many of the incredible bikes I've seen on Francis' and Jimmy's respective channels, they are simply outside of my financial reality. Added is the physical reality of weighing 98 kilos; I have to be far more circumspect about rider weight allowances and braking power. Finding the sweet spot between performance, durability, and price is incredibly confusing in the current market.
Very interesting indeed. I upgraded my touring bike to 2 x 10 speed Tiagra, had to get the GRX rear derailleur due to Tiagra cable pull being different to all other 10 speed (STI levers). It is great, reliable, sound, slightly clunkier than 105 but not so much that I regret buying it - and the cost was WAY cheaper than 105. For my money the 10 speed GRX with Tiagra shifters is plenty workable, on an awesome frame with great wheels I think it would make a formidable bike that would be a better option in terms of cost while retaining the lovely (yes lovely) performance of the higher end frame.
GRX 400 levers are pretty much tiagra with hydro brakes.
Slightly beefier hoods but honestly it’s fine. Not brilliant but fine.
I think the comparison here was done well. Because an 1800 gravel is a usualy an good solid bike.
1 tier down and you really start to get into crappy builds. That said my merida 400 rentals have great bartape.
Excellent video Francis! Have been scouring YT for in-depth info on the Scott Speedster Gravel range especially for geometry comparisons but this by far is the most info I’ve got on the bike. May I suggest the following upgrades to bring down the weight substantially?
1. Parcours wheelset - For my riding, I would choose the 1,400gm Ronde with the Hutchinson Overide 38mm tyres (tubeless, of course!) to save a bit more weight while retaining functionality. Standard X25 wheels are approx. 2100gm.
2. Carbon seatpost - More comfort, slight weight saving.
3. Carbon handlebar/handlebar-stem combination - Again, more comfort, slight weight saving.
4. Selle Italia saddle - Definitely one of the best around, I personally use the Selle Italia SLR Boost Endurance, the one you use is lighter still.
5. If you had to go all the way and really make it a focused build for a particular type of riding then a single Rotor crank.
Even without number 5, I reckon that this could be a shade under 10kg but with a vastly more comfortable ride quality. Looking forward to a future build and as always, amazing content man!
I'd be curious how the cheaper bike felt after swapping wheels/tires with the expensive one? How much closer to that higher-end feel can you get with just a wheel/tire upgrade? Would probably cut a decent chunk of weight as well
The black tape looks much better than the white tape! Never get the cheap one! If you do, you’ll eventually buy the expensive one anyway. I ride a Sage Titanium Barlow frame with GRX 800 mechanical shift (11 speed) one by, a Chris King bottom bracket (T47) and head set. The wheels are Roval Terra C with Panaracer Gravel King SS @35mm. I ride less on gravel than pavement. They’re quite fast on the road and hard pack conditions but not so good for mud. If it’s muddy I stay home which is more of a option in Southern California than the UK except when you were here!😂 We’re having the coldest and wettest winter we’ve had in quite a few years. My bars are Roval Terra and probably have the shortest reach and drop of any carbon bar and are very comfortable. The stem and seat post are Thomson Elite. Very strong! This build is a bit over $6000.
Get the cheap one, upgrade the parts and you'll have a premium bike for a fraction of the costs. Like with my Sora equipped alloy frame gravel bike a few upgrades later, 1x, XT-Ultegra mullet setup, the weight is 8.62kg. And the frame is more durable than a carbon one. Ride feel is incredible.
What bike do you have?
There is a fix for the spongey Sram brakes. I battled with them for two years. My LBS spoke with Sram and worked out a fix that finally made them crisp braking. They were thrilled to figure out the fix. I was glad to finally have brakes that worked.
I absolutely hammered a a new Tiagra groupset on an old Scott Roadster (2007 frame I think?) that I rebuilt in 2019. I took that bike everywhere road, knarly gravel, bike packing, well over 2000miles and it never failed me (other than pads, chain, cassette / consumables etc.). It's so overlooked.
...+ it's good to see "Jimi-Arm-Thing" (@3:40) again...
Great video Francis! I've been on and off watching your channel for a few years and I have to say they've been getting even more amazing every month. I'm now watching pretty much all of them these days.
Definitely agree with some other comments here - great analysis, and it would be great to see a follow-up video throwing a mid-range bike in the mix.
Great videos, but can we have a repeat with both bikes on the same tyres, and pressure (tubeless) as I can't help but feel that a great deal of what you were feeling was down to this. Sure the £8k bike is better, but I think you over emphasised it in this very entertaining video.
I currently ride a 2021 scott grave speedster with a ultegra swap and gator skin tires. Personally i think this is the perfect set up of road/light gravel riding. I am able to keep up just fine with my carbon road buddies and gravel junkies. Also great for long endurance rides!
incidentally i ride a scott gravel speedster 30 (2020 model). nothing to complain, frankly. now that i've replaced saddle and handlebars, i can't wait for the weather to get warmer.
I run 2 bikes mainly:
Planet x free ranger carbon frame. (9.5/10kg) mullet setup with some rival component, force 1 cranks, eagle gx chain ring, e13 11s 9-46 cassette with 650b tubeless 50or52-584 tyres and ritchey venture comp pro bars
Dahon smooth hound, alumunium frame (8-8.3kg) 1x 9 sora rt3000 with praxis carbon cranks/4iii powermeter, force1 chainring 50T, 11-34 9s XT cassette, 32-406 tyre and ritchey venture pro comp bars
Riding gravel on an old 2014 Giant tcx allux 2 slr frame. Wheels are alloy rims with dt swiss 240 hubs and a xd driver. Just build it up with sram rival axs shifters and an sram eagle axs deraileur and a 10-50 casette. Loving it. Tires are gravelking ss 38mm setup Tubeless with orangeseal. Zero flat wheels in two years 🤞. Keeping up and the cost of the build. Is 1400 £. And i have a spare groupset to sell. The crankset is an old one, a Shimano 5700 10 speed, but i have mounted a narrowwide woolftooth 42t chainring to it. Doing the job just fine.
Canyon sells their bikes with everything you need for tubeless. Rim tape already on, comes with a tubeless valve, etc.
Good to go!
Excellent format! And very believable discussion allowing greater insight into the 'value for cost' aspect.
I like Jimmy's "if you can ride the more expensive one, do it!" I've gotten so used to my road bike being under 7kg that I've had to rethink other bikes & what's acceptable to me. I'm also getting older and I don't have the same power & time to ride as I did.
100% agree. I ride a titanium gravel bike on the road n the winter and summer off road. My normal road bike is a Pinarello frameset I got in the sale and built up with di2, carbon everything and its under 7kg. There is a huge huge difference in the feel and quality of using the bike.
Loved the video and should definitely be a short series. Creating a 3k bike to simulate the feel of a 8k would be interesting to see
The last few minutes with the wrap up. Gold content imo
Great vid Francis. Interesting and well put together. I ride an Orro Terra C gravel bike with a 2x 105 groupset. I've spent most of my time riding with road guys but I'm doing my first gravel event this year and I can't wait to see how I get on.
As a long term Orro Terra C rider, I would suggest fitting a Grx rear derailleur and an 11/34 cassette. You’ll be surprised how well it would perform with those 2 changes
Very Good!! I back in the 70s I would buy a custom frame and average group set and I really liked the ride. I find it difficult to find a deal on a good frame that could be built up like the old days. The frame cost is close to a bike cost yet the choices for biking are so complex. I look for parts and try putting various combinations together. I agree with your saddle,bar and tires. The best point you made I think is the cost of ridding with expensive part for all parts just need to be replaced and repaired. I do my own work but still very expensive for tools and parts.
Great vid! I'd be curious to see if carbon seatpost, handlebars and wheels would change the way this 1 800 bike feels. Is it worth to buy carbon parts for an alloy bike? And compare it to good set of tubeless tyres - which is better investment? And what happens, if you combine carbon parts and good tyres?
On my cheap carbon winter bike I found it a really harsh ride and was upset with myself for not spending a bit more for a quality frame. Then I tried the VCLS seatpost from my summer canyon on it and transformed the ride completely. Now I WANT to ride it rather than feel like I have to when it’s wet. It also has a Frankenstein group set with SRAM force levers and brakes, Rival mech & cassette, GRX chainset with 105 left side power meter, Ultegra pedals & KMC chain. Works just as well as when it had a full Force groupset!
Absolutely keen on seeing a Tiagra/Sora/equivalent Sram groupset test!
Almost have the parts ready for this!
Very interesting video, love the format. I bought an aluminium canyon roadlite 7 with Ultegra last year. Tubeless, flat bars and 9 kilos it's one of the best bikes I have ever owned. It cost €1400.
The alloy bike in this case is a tubeless conversion away from being a bike you can just ride forever without upgrade, you have the basics of hydraulic brakes, clutch derailleur and decent gearing for climbs and the ability to run decent width tires.
Very entertaining video! Keep up the great work!
Regarding your question at the end, I have a Canyon Grail AL 6 from last year, so the same entry level group set, quite comparable in about any aspect actually, but a bit cheaper. Basically the cheapest gravel bike they offer. I am pleased with the performance as one who just wants to use the bike the be fit, not racing or anything.
for most people $2,000 worth of bike is PLENTY of bike. even doing grand fondos, and crits.
and this is from a bloke who has a $6k titanium gravel/ all road bike that takes up to 47mm 700c tires or 650 x 2.1" -
and has two carbon wheelsets. for nearly 1/3 to 1/2 the price I could have had a bike that worked basically the same -
but we all fall victim to vanity and consumerism.
Also that Scoot seems heavy AF for $8,000....8.2kg ?? My titaniun bike with a full GRX 810 mechanical and carbon wheels is like 7.8kg...
The answer is then, change the bars and tape, remove the front mech, convert to tubeless and put on slightly wider tyres on the £1800 bike. One could put lighter parts on it if one wishes, but the 1x convert will get it to under 11kgs (if you are sensible with the tl fluid).
I like the format, I have a similar tier bike as the low end one and it has gotten me through several thousand miles of fun and wind over the last few years. Biggest difference for me over my old bike was the hydraulic brakes and it actually fitting sorta right
Thank you for the excellent content. At the moment I would recommend the Stevens Camino Pro carbon, to every gravler (with a 1-speed crank). Weight 8.5 kg, Easton EC90 SL Carbon crank and Shimano GRX 810 / 812 components. Wheels DT Swiss G 1800 Sline. For 3099 euros (2730 pounds)
A nice addition would be comparing stock tyres to then matching the tyres of the two bikes so it eliminates getting a fair comparison between the two machines. I ride two gravel bikes with 40mm and 45mm tyres so know there is quite a difference in ride quality.
It’d be great to see you compare a £3000 bike to the top of the range - and then see how you could upgrade the £1800 to be as close to the others as possible (without spending more than £1200 obviously)
Your remark about replacement costs is very important on a mtb/cross/gravel bike. I remember how fast the components on my cross bike would deteriorate in one winter season. Just a few races. So glad I was running cheap 9-speed stuff. It lasts longer and is much cheaper to replace.. On one course, many expensive bikes where shedding their deraillers in the mud. My trusty Deore derailler was fine. Well, gravel is not mud or cross..
Good stuff gents - 100% need a mid-range 3k bike comparison review
I can relate to the brakes... my Sram Force Etap Levers are always troubling me, like after every 1500km i have to do something, like bleeding, or seting up the range differently and never felt or braked as good as my shimanos.... with my 2 years old Shimano 105 wich have been ridden for 14000km i just had to change brakepads, thats it. It just works
I liked this video-format.
The Canyon Inflite AL was a super nice 1500€ alloy bike. It weights below 9kg and came with a nice sram 1-11 and carbon fork. Luckily I grabbed one in 2019 because the alloy version inflite was discontinued last year. I have risen thousands of kilometres on it and find that it rides super nice. And the price was even in 2019 great for a below 9 kg bike.
I have a speedster gravel 30 with 2x11 GRX and love it. Changed the saddle but otherwise kept stock. My mate has a mid range carbon gravel bike, cracked seat stays after a few months and has to wait 6 months for his replacement frame. IMO alloy is the way to go for off-road
First, I wanna say I really enjoyed this video. Watched it a few times. Honest and fair assessment of both bikes. The few points you highlighted, saddle, bar, and tyre set up, are all things rider specific, as we know, we all usually swap them out straight away. Tubeless set up would have been good for the test tbh. I'd love the £1800 Scott, for my needs, perfect, unfortunately I'm jobless atm, but in time, I hope to buy a gravel bike. Great content mate, as usual. Thank you 👍
I Liked the comparison, some very interesting insights.
Currently riding:
- 2021 carbon Canyon Ultimate CF SL 7, rim brake, 25mm Continental GrandPrix tires, just under 8kg
- 2011 Giant XR1 Roam (my 'winter bike', a sort of hybrid) Straight handle bars, with Shimano Deore XT 3x9 - stuck in the big ring, so actually a 1x9 - with hydraulic Magura rim brakes and 42 mm Pathfinder Pro tires ~ 12.5 kg (wild guess)
I have a earlier Gravel bike that came with Sora, I’ve over the last 5 years upgraded the groupset to get hydraulic braking, and last year new wheels to go tubeless both where dramatic upgrades.
The gearing is barely noticeable, slightly better range with Tiagra cassette 34 vs 32/11 both shifted well.
I still think the gravel category will be evolving quite a bit the next few years. I think suspension will take over. If the bikes are being ridden off-road - suspension will be a huge benefit.
I've been riding gravel since gravel became "a thing". I've not bought a carbon gravelbike, but have experimented with steel and titanium. I was fortunate to buy al;l three bikes right before Covid and the "supply chain issues". I've used 105-5800 frankenbike setups , now called "mullet" with mtb casettes and Roadlink adapters, and 1x and 2x. I like the GRX setup best, with a 2x GRX 600 on the newest Lynskey GR300 bike, which cost just over $3000. when I bought it. I like it very much, and have bought two extra wheels sets so I can run road, gravel 700 and gravel/mtb 650b. It is super versatile, and I don't think I hit 8000 yet for all three bikes. I'm disgusted with the bike industry and the prices I see thesde days. The cheaper Scott bike is a good place to start, needs on;y mintor upgrades and most people can't begin to afford the "better" bike anyway.
Had the same issue with Shimano XT brakes Vs SRAM level ultimates. The Ultimates I couldn't get to not be spongy, took it to bike shop who set it up properly with the bleed block and still half a lever of travel before any braking, shop overfilled them and now they finally feel right. Going back to the Shimanos with servowave takes some getting used to after riding with SRAMs that are setup properly and I end up locking up a lot on the first few rides, but they are much better once used to them because they take so little effort compared to SRAM.
I think the carbon levers also have more flex in them which adds to the spongy feel.
"You make friends with golfers so they don't hit you with golf balls" - Jimmy 2023
Great video guys!
2 years ago, I brought a vitus gravel bike, spec’ed with sram apex. Love the bike, except the brakes. I've always riden Shimano, never had an issue, but these sram apex brakes never feel quite right. Even after multiple bleeds, switching to uberbikes pad, etc, etc.
Fantastic Episode - Hands Down, Excellent
Just seeing Jimmy's face was worthy of an $8,000 price tag
Now here in Colorado, it was literally impossible to purchase a Scoot Bike. Scott doesn't wholesale from the UK and you MUST go through a bike shop. That Totally Blows!! Because of you FC and your videos, I tried in 2021 and half of 2022 to locate a Scott Addict 20 or 30 Gravel. Forget It
So I purchased the RIBBLE SL Gravel. I am only bring this up because the tires and rims were tubeless ready but shipped with a tube. I did pay the bike shop $28 US dollars per wheel to switch over. I am very pleased with the ride and the "standard" parts are top shelf.
Again, my point is that this episode kicks A$$ and is very entertaining.
Well Done Boys,
Cheers
Thanks Travis!
I think the difference maker is the carbon and more specifically the carbon layup on more expensive frames. can make different parts of the frame stiffer or more supple to absorb some vibration and flex where they need to. and they can be so light too.
Interesting comment regarding Tiagra and Sora groupsets at the end. I've had Tiagra and Ultegra on road bikes and they're both great. It comes down to indexing and adjustment. My gravel bike has GRX and I'm always fiddling with the cable tension!
Got the Speedster Gravel 20 with Syncross Capital x40 carbon wheels setup tubeless. I found that to be the perfect sweetspot between price and performance. Even lower speced road and gravel bikes these days are SO good!
After putting out 15k on my road bike, I'd probably opt for the alloy gravel bike, but I'd go with carbon rims, my favorite saddle, and the power pedals as well as Cinelli bar tape because contact points matter more than frame weight if it's not your primary bike.
Bombtrack Hook EXT (bought for 2800€) : steel frame with a Rival 1 groupset. Changed the freehub body for an XD one. I quite like the smallest cog at 10t, gives quite a bit more range than the 11t Shimano uses as a smallest cog.
Hi!!!
Short answer? No it's not! The cost is never equal with the gains. Just like in any other sport.
But I'm still watching this..
Really dreamed of getting a Scott Addict Gravel for a long time. It's just not readily available where I.'m from sadly plus the sizing is just too large. But really great to see these bikes in action. Currently running a Ceepo Rindo as my main bike and love it. Keep at it mates. Cheers! Ride safe.
Enjoyed this format and the interactions between you…it was super…
like the format and conclusions - I have a mid range Canyon Grail cf SL 7 with carbon frame and GRX 800/600 sells for $2700 and is the sweet spot - upgraded wheels with Hunt gravel race for $500 and weight down to 8kg - agree I wouldn’t spend more on an off-road bike
I bought my 2021 Cannondale Topstone 1 Alloy for $2300. Shimano GRX 11 speed group set. The WTB rims came taped which was nice. At that price point my budget allowed me to buy Garmin Rally XC200 pedals which I like very much.
Yeah man. The lower groupsets are definitely overlooked thanks to a fetish with 105s.
Inflation means many need to think about going down
i had a giant gravel bike back in 2018 that came tubeless ready and with the tyres already setup in the box, so companies will do it.
I definitely like the idea and format of this video. I do think the "budget versus expensive" comparison is a bit saturated. As others said, you bringing real..."from a rider" view of the differences like you did is a nice differentiator, and, I think extending to building up and riding that middle-ground bike would be cool.
Whatever you do, if you keep your personal enthusiasm, and keep including your stellar mates, it'll come out well.
GRX 1by - perfect choice. And having tubeless setup and right saddle - would make massive difference. Or if you can switch wheels to carbon as well
The canyon grizl/grail 7 can be bought for 1800€. It has a mix of grx 600/810 components and a carbon seatpost.
I’ve got the speedster gravel 30 so was great to see the comparison.
The tyres supplied with it are not tubeless compatible though.
My main reason for going for the speedster over the addict was versatility. I use the bike on occasion to take my daughter on so the ally frame means I can safely ride with a child seat. I then also have a second wheel set, Zipp 303’s for when I’m doing big rides to save some weight and add style points 👍
I have a first generation aluminium Cannondale Topstone with SRAM Apex 1x, it cost around £1500 and whilst it’s not super light I have no fears about sending it over rough terrain and breaking something. All the components aren’t too expensive to replace and the frame is tough, my one complaint is that the Apex 1 brakes are awful (in comparison to those on my road bike) and every time I ride I wish they were better.
If I wanted to go faster I’d get fitter, but also I’d be spending more and getting a carbon bike that’s lighter and probably a bit aero. The value for money between £1500 and £2500 is amazing right now!
more like this please. That question of finding the sweet spot is of relevance to most of us, IMO. My guess is that beyond like £4k you're getting really diminishing performance/weight returns. What do you need to spend to get a "£4k" bike from AliExpress purchases?
My gravel bike from planet X cost 1800, full carbon frame and fork, full SRAM force 1X groupset, clearance for 700x45 tires or even bigger in 650. The wheel/tire combo it came with wasn't great, sold them for 100 and then spent a bit more on decent wheels and tires (prime alloy and wtb Riddler's) still spent under 2000 and it weighs 9kg. Bargain. Also had 0 mechanical issues.
great video & like the format. Well put together.
running self built mason bokeh, ekar (group set). it was the only components i could source during lockdowns.
You and Jimmy together is just the best 👌 great video as always 👌🤙🤙