nice vid mate! i've never drunk nail varnish remover... but i think i likened it to absinth! it's grim stuff. I think everyone should focus on that list of things that ellen suggested before they bother with ketones.
HVMN version is not the full ketone ester. Ketone IQ" is NOT a "Ketone Ester", it is non-ethanol alcohol, that is R-1,3-butanediol (R-1,3-BDO). Only Ketone Aid and DeltaG provide D-Beta Hydroxybutyrate (D-BHB) Ketone Ester. Those aren't the same at all in terms of physiological response. HVMN USED TO BE the full D-DHB ester, with DeltaG as their supplier. When the agreement ended, DeltaG started selling it under its own name. The full ester creates a much different outcome. The full esters are the ones typically reflected in clinical testing. Repeat this test with either KE4 or DeltaG. Quick-Step Alpha Vinyl is the first WT team to openly be sponsored by a Ketone Ester, and they use KE.
Taking EPO results in performance gains, over baseline, irrespective of prior training or exercise, and is similar to blood doping. The way the data from the ketone body testing is presented suggests there wasn’t an increase in performance, there was a 15% decrease in loss of performance. This would appear to be a very important difference - just a lingering thought ;)
I had taken part in a research study that was doing testing with ketones, specifically DeltaG. Had to do a few 20min all out efforts, 1 baseline, 1 placebo, and 1 with the real ketone supplement. My lowest performance was with the Keytone drink, mainly because it tasted so bad (may have been the worst thing I've ever tasted honestly) and did not sit well in my stomach, felt like if I pushed as hard as I normally did, I'd puke. Will be interesting to see the overall results of the study once results are published though.
Thanks Francis and Ellen ...I love her accent ! And , one old guy here . I have seen a lot of things come and go...mostly go . Trends or fads are incredible to watch ! .... How about the placebo effect ? Im good with my old ...very old , stand by. Coffee and weed.
Haha as a type one diabetic I like seeing other people tasting ketones. I always explained ketoasitosis as having drank battery acid so it's nice to hear that confirmed.
Generally with things like this your body tends to eventually find its equilibrium again, so you may get a short term increase in epo and red count, but I would imagine over time it will come back down to normal/very slightly above normal
It depends where on the incredibly complex metabolic reaction chains the ketones play a role and it's all speculation until it's peer reviewed and published. A contrary example to your argument would be vitamin D production in caucasians. If they've had minimal UV exposure for a long time and they're super pale. They will when exposed to UV produce more vitamin D. Overtime they will tan and find a new equilibrium of vitamin D yes. But, vitamin D production will still be much higher than when there was the minimal UV exposure. But again, this would be a different metabolic process so it would be foolish to speculate on what the actual long-term changes are, until it's peer reviewed and published.
@@Hill_Walker I would argue that's because vitamin D production without sunlight exposure is actually limited by the resource of sunlight, so if you were to go more extreme and put them in an extremely sunny environment there may be a transient increase but I think it would still generally balance out back to where it would be if they had a regular amount of exposure
Hi Alex. I agree back to baseline, ie homeostasis, often occurs after ‘oral supplementation’ with metabolites. However, there would have to be studies to prove this is the case with this product, as due to the nature of ketone bodies and the oral intake route, there could be a potential to greatly alter the gut microbiome, either transiently or more long term.
@@DPbike yes I definitely agree that it's possible there are long term benefits and we need clinical trials to find out, I suppose I'm just skeptical because marketing can often stretch the truth and there's a long history of products with similar claims to this in other disciplines that ended up essentially having negligible benefit. Definitely doesn't mean this is the same thing though, I would be pleased to be proven wrong
I'm glad you had Ellen on to emphasize that these are _exogenous_ ketones. As such they are quite different from naturally occurring endogenous ketones. The benefits of the former are much different and more limited that the latter. The man-made type _may_ have a function, but they are not the same as the body producing them as the byproduct of changing its metabolism, from carb-burning to fat-burning. But from a performance and recovery perspective, this technology is very provocative & interesting.
But am I right in thinking that the EPO generated is endogenous, which is legal as its a normal bodily function, versus exogenous epo which is the banned dangerous substance?
@@Alchas65 my comments were specifically about the purpose & production of ketones. I haven't looked into how the EPO associated with this "supplement" is characterized. Perhaps that is clarified in the HVMN documentation.
So far the studies that weren’t directly paid for by HVMN, have shown basically zero results. And also interesting, the Pro teams that use it, are being paid too. Basically don’t get caught in the hype, and do some research.
Just one thing to point out. Whenever you say something along the lines of 'I'm not qualified, I'm not a nutritionist', keep in mind that neither are nutritionists. There is a medical field that deals in human nutrition and experts in this field are called dietitians - nutritionists are just random people, without a medical degree, that like to tell others what to do. Comparing a dietitian to a nutritionist is like comparing a scientist to a scientologist.
Your wording is confusing and contradictory. Neither nutritionist nor dietician have medical degrees. The important thing is that one needs to check peoples' credentials. Ellen has a BSc (though we don't have details on the subjects/majors) and has studied to get a diploma in performance nutrition - from the quick look, it seems that that is a legitimate credential. By the same token, a dietician may or may not have specific working knowledge when it comes to advising athletes on optimum intake. "nutritionist" may or may not be a trustworthy descriptor: you have to dig deeper to find out.
@@peacay You are unfortunately completely wrong, sir/madam - not only in your incorrect spelling of the word itself. In the UK, the title 'dietitian' is regulated by law and you need a medical degree to become part of the regulatory body that sets rules of your practice. On the other side - anyone can call themselves a nutritionist - you, me, and the guy that dropped out of school at 12. End of story.
I’m some parts of Canada there is a protected designation for nutritionists. So while I agree with what you’re saying as a whole, there are exceptions to the rule. I believe they are held to the same standard as dieticians i those areas.
@@peacay I’m a sports dietitian. registered dietitian. Licensed, board certified, and credentialed. There is a specific Bachelors in Science in food and nutrition sciences I have had to obtain as well as going through supervised hours after graduation to then be eligible to sit for an exam to be able to be credentialed and say RD. All of this to say, I have a specific degree as well does everyone in my profession. We have all gone through a form of residency and we have all been board certified. Cheers
Great video! I tried that stuff out. Not the single serving format, but the bigger bottles with 3 or 4 servings. Can't say that I see any benefit for pre-ride, but I CAN say that it helps massively with recovery after a big ride (4+ hours). I don't feel nearly as hammered the next day. I guess there might be something to it, but more research is prolly needed.
This is interesting, I suppose it raises the question of where you draw the line with supplementation too. High doses of nitrate rich beetroot juice come to mind for their supposed benefits in time trials.
It’s always been suspected that Team Sky were the first to use ketones, although this was denied by certain pro riders and coaches. But looking back at various performances their advantages and that of other teams since seem questionable. Even Lance Armstrong questioned this back in 2019 on his Move podcast, which considering his history seems a bit ironic.🤔
Seems to me something suspect is going on in the Pro Peleton these days. I remember Greg Lemond saying about the early nineties his figures were the same but he was going backward in the peloton. It appears something similar is happening now. Some of the performances demonstrated by members of a certain team in the last few TdF's look highly suspect and how is it that natural climbers are now struggling to win stages or that someone like Peter Sagan suddenly becomes un-competitive. It could be that Sky were the first to use ketones, who knows? We will never get the truth if they were. It looks to me though that another team has either learned to use them more effectively (if Sky has indeed used them) or is the first to do so or has found something else more effective. Hello Jumbo Visma. The irony about Armstrong is not lost on me and possibly there is a bit of bitterness there, but you would have thought that he knows what he is talking about. Following the Alpe D'Huez stage in his last tour his comments about Contador's performance that day were somewhat telling. Reading between the lines, with what we know now about Armstrong, he was saying "I have been well prepared (doped up) and yet been well beaten by someone. What's he on?" And were these comments wrong? I doubt it judging by Contador's dodgy history.
The big difference between this and EPO injections is that this can promote your body to make more EPO instead of you forcing synthetic EPO into your bloodstream
Hopefully your body producing EPO, through this process, regulates, the levels at a safe threshold unlike hooking up to an IV. There is also the argument, that sport should be doped as long as it's at safe levels. But that seems even harder than it already is to enforce as they'd be regulating a bolted horse with a closed stable door.
Yes let’s have her as a regular! Like most studies in sports science the test subjects seem to be young super light weight highly fit males, if not elites. It’s good to have Ellen qualify the current studies.
Some interesting comments. Just a note what happens to excess ketones? You simply pee them out. Yes ketone strips are cheaply used to test if you are in ketosis. Vs having to draw blood ( this is required to measure).
Great video. You should check out Delta G Ketone. Thats the one predominantly used in the peloton. I know the guys at Delta G would gladly share their research with you in great detail. Delta G use the original ketone ester developed by Oxford Uni. HVMN used to but they can’t anymore and their new IQ ester is now a different type. Not all ketones are equal. Current studies on BHB ketones (Delta G) would indicate limited improvements to performance but up to 15% faster recovery by rapidly assisting in restoring muscle glycogen and reduced post race muscle atrophy. Notably when ingested alongside carbs, not instead of. As for the banned substance thing, it’s another form of energy, your bodies natural emergency supply when it goes into starvation. Nothing remotely like any banned substance. Arguably no difference for example to using caffeine, creatine or nitrite shots in terms of the need for it being on ‘the list.’ When all is said and done all the current science would indicate carbs are king for high energy cycling.
I know someone (a body builder)who went on a very strick Jeti diet which he ate five skinless chicken breasts a day and several avacodos and a very low amount of carbohydrates .. the had one bad side effect as he had severe constipation and needed 5 enemas to flush out all the merde ..but he placed well in the competition though
As it is expensive stuff then regardless of health risks or not, if these benefits are substantial then it will get banned just to level the playing field.
They sent us a bunch for free too. You mentioned that the barrier was the price for most folks. Our barrier for using it was... it doesn't do anything.
Point to note. APPARENTLY this brand of ketone is not the same make up as a couple of other prominent brands. It is also NOT the brand that Quickstep are using.
Cut out your carbs gradually for 2 weeks to none for 2-3 days then do a 14 day water/electrolyte fast like I did at the end of 2022...on day 6 of zero food I went for a bike ride did 43km in 1hr 51m....Ketones that day were 8mmol/l .... (nutritional ketosis is regarded as between 1.5-3.0 mmol/l)... Yes you will never win a race (that I know of?) on "fat burning" but your body has months of food on it that most of us just keep adding to and rarely use up because constant carb eating means insulin is produced and that turns off fat burning.... keto works for sure, and cutting down hugely (she said 50g, that's "low carb", you need to get down to 20g a day)turns off hunger like you wouldn't believe... Most compare fat burning as the reliable, low tuned diesel engine that purrs away on an almost endless source of fuel...and carb dependent (bike racing?!)fuelling is F1/jetfuel.... when you run out you crash and burn. Being able to switch between both (metabolic flexibility) is pretty critical..
Interesting - but I believe that HVMN is NOT an ester - it is alcohol based. The only two companies that are genuine Esters I believe are DeltaG (Oxford UK) and KetoneAid in USA. The production cost of using Ester as a base is very high - originally $2000 for 1 litre! Now, with more of a consumer market it has fallen to around $150 per litre - but it is still expensive - which is why, I presume, that HVMN uses alcohol. Other companies provide Ketones using salts, which are much cheaper but very problematic. Esters are easy and natural for the body to metabolise and make absorption of the key ketone (Beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB)) very quick. Nearly all of the independent science has been conducted using Esters. As far as it becoming a banned substance - that is unlikely happen, because BHB (the core Ketone that drives the energy or ATP) is already in your body and you cannot survive without it. It's not a drug. A ketone ester is simply raising your level of BHB, without you having to break down fats in your body (by exercise or by fasting).
if you ask contador, he'll tell you he was eating pasta and candy during 3 week races. lol. Performance enhancer are one of the pilars of cycling and no one talks about it.
I'd not be against athletes having to submit daily urine samples in the build up to the big races. Would be interesting to see if the peloton performance in the Grand Tours suddenly dropped relative to the rest of the calander.
@@sweatnosweat That those sources cover cases in, in particular, the Armstrong era. There is no indication whatsoever that, "lol", "performance enhancer are one of the pilars of [present-day] cycling" (sic). The addition of no-one is (presently) talking about it, is 'begging the question'. So, where is your evidence that cycling (as a whole?) is built on PEDs. I.e., given the current facts and circumstances, the exact converse of your statement (to wit: PEDs are no longer an integral part of cycling) also may be very well true.
If i wanna take it to get better performance in a race how long before the race should I take it, should I take one every day up to the race or what? Should I take any supplements to it? I just wanna know how you handle it. Thanks again for all the good videos and appreciate your work keep doing what you do!!!
Very Apt this video on Ketones, and the effect possible on EPO, have heard a case of an professional athlete who is awaiting B sample testing results but has been provisionally suspended for EPO, Low range - slightly elevated. Makes you think could this stuff been ingested / used, and could it have had that EPO effect???
Unfortunately no evidence to suggest that you actually get more RBCs as a result or for how long it lasts for. Ketones also reduce blood glucose levels.
The WADA rules are written to preempt any new performance enhancers coming out - "The following substances (EPO), and other substances with similar chemical structure or , are prohibited." - So if ketones actually do boost EPO they are already banned by the word of the rules. Of course how you go about enforcing that when it's a boosted natural process and not an artificial route is a different thing.
UK Sport gave ketone esters to London 2012 medal hopefuls These were separate from UK Sport’s own trials on athletes ahead of London 2012. UK Sport’s statement details a Confidential Disclosure Agreement (CDA) involving UK Sport, Oxford University, UK Anti-Doping (UKAD) and the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). ‘At this point in time and based on the confidential information from TAS [Court of Arbitration for Sport] we have reviewed, we have no reason to consider such substances as banned under the 2011 List of Prohibited Substances and Methods’, reads a statement from WADA featuring in UKAD’s reply to UK Sport (PDF below). Following UKAD’s response, UK Sport’s Research Advisory Group (RAG) approved the Ketone Ester Project in January 2012 (PDF below). This reveals the official name for UK Sport’s research project was ‘The effects of acute supplementation with a ketone ester on training and competition performance in Olympic sports: a repeated measures case study series’.
im not really sure how safe it is, im type 1 diabetic and we can end up in in DKA (Diabetic ketoacidosis) which is basically when you get ketones in your system and it can kill you, no idea if its the same sort of thing or only effects diabetics but ketones rings alarm bells for me
Totally different. Yes DKA is deadly to T1 diabetics. To the average person, their body is able to utilise them, so the ketones won't build up to dangerous levels like you have issues.
Great accent on Ellen, there, and interesting summary of the results. 15% is serious business. 270 watts for 30 minutes? Bonkers. She gets more impressive by the minute. "Again, men" ha ha haaaa. I had heard of the dietary aspects before, which were interesting on their own. But if it's increasing EPO and RBC and massively improving recovery, that's pretty amazing. See if Will Girling will come back and weigh in on this, too!
Very interesting. I've watched the development of these. Professors Phinney and Volek have done some of the most extensive tests on athletes (particularly cyclists) in the state of ketosis. Yes, it takes a few months to get to a state of efficiency to be able to utilise it in exercise (in short the body needs to grow more mitochondira to use). It is definatley of benefit in low intensity endurance (audax/brevet) type riding but studies on racing is still being done. You can be pretty bonk proof! Using exogenous ketones (so drinking them) won't put your body into a state of ketosis but can have other advantages for brain function. Be interesting to see how you go with them.
Pump his tyres full of water instead of air, realign his brake calipers if he's on discs so they rub and finally fill his water bottles with heavy water (it is safe to drink). Really you're just giving him training aides and making him fitter and healthier. You winning up the hill is just a benign bonus. All caring parents should take these steps, especially the heavy water one, super good value for money.
Think I'll just stick to being slow thanks, drinking something that tastes like nail varnish, battery acid, bile or crushed paracetamol not that appealing. By the sound of it you'd need a fairly well controlled environment dietary wise to get the best gains as in World Tour teams. Are you going to be using them?
Hi, i do have a question, first of all : BIG FAN OF ALL YOUR VIDEO'S , YOU GUYS GREAT, for exemple i loved the robot companion in switzerland LOL LOL LOL so ilarious. Anyway my question is : will the Exogenous Ketone Supplements, be a god idea for me ? i am an ( i like to think to be a good one) AMATOUR rider , i have already succeed on ride one 300km and one 400km in one day, now i would like to do one 1500km in 3 days, is my first multy days ride and i am a bit worried, so what do you think it ill be a good idea for me to use it or not? THANKS IN ADVACE FOR YOUR TIME ,and more important THANKS FOR YOUR VIDEOS.
the new HVMN ketone drink tastes so much better than the previous one. which is saying something! Also, the research into them is so new and changing, but, currently it's showing that it's actually more beneficial for recovery vs. day of performance. Taking a swig of one bottle once pre or post workout won't do anything, but, at least a more routine use post hard workouts has a potentially greater chance of helping you recover. #NotSponsored haha
It tastes much better because it's R-1,3-butanediol (R-1,3-BDO). Only Ketone Aid and DeltaG provide D-Beta Hydroxybutyrate (D-BHB). HVMN isn't the fuller ester. It used to be.
@@meatmotorendurance What's going on man - I'm the CEO of H.V.M.N. & cofounder. With Ketone-IQ we created a diol, which is 3x more efficient than any ester in terms of dollars per gram of ketone. That’s why our v1 was an ester and then we updated to the diol. No one is else able to deliver 10g ketones for $4
Slippery slope Francis, next you'll be donning a US Postal jersey, taking the Trek for a spin ! Thoughts with the LAPD guys who escorted you, Justin & friends that final day in LA. Awful events they're getting called to attend, at speed, while most are heading the opposite direction ! Brave ain't the word
It's not that your body CAN produce it, it's that your body DOES and MUST produce it to govern the levels of red blood cells in your blood. It's a non-optional aspect of staying alive.
Great show, but you don't need to eat carbs as we make it, which I'm sure you guys already know. How about doing a deep dive in to all the athletes that use Keto/Carnivore in their training and competition.
On the one hand, there's nothing wrong with discussing this topic. On the other hand, this video appears to be a paid promotion aka an ad, which is kind of a bummer.
As a nurse practitioner that has written orders for kids on seizure prophylactic ketogenic diets including total parenteral nutrition (with the help of registered dietician and pharmacist) I find it hilarious to see amateur athletes trying to simplify things down to drinking a bottle of ketones. Will you see improvement in performance, a tiny (based on real world results). Even Ollie, with a PhD in chemistry, does not have a PhD in biochem and does not know what happens at a macro level to the liver over a career of taking supplemental ketones. I'll wait to see what happens to the pros in 10 years. Hope they don't have liver failure at 50.
As an overweight rider I'm doing a keto diet to lose weight as the low carb also helps with lowering my A1C and controlling my type 2 diabetes. You can also take MCT oil which is from coconuts to get ketone quickly. Ketogenic diet is great if your an endurance rider like going long distance cross country. This could have helped you and Justin on your crosscountry trip in USA.
This is probably the worst advice for an endurance athlete and just about anyone to be honest. It is also a bad way of controlling type 2 diabetes and may work in the short term but it will cause more health problems further down the line.
@@dylanconnor5064 my diabetes doc has me on a low carb diet as I'm insulin resistant and need to lose weight. Currently at 270 and need to lose 70 lbs to get to healthy weight. I'm on mounjaro for weight loss and A1C control along with doing cycling for cardio workouts. I'm training to do long tours on either my recumbent trike or a touring bike like a kona sutra and stay in zone 2 HR...don't have a power meter.
@@dylanconnor5064 I'm doing keto for several years now, and my endurance has gone up the roof. You can go for hours on an empty stomach, no bonking, better performance etc. Safe as hell, and in fact much safer and healthier that the high-carb diets. Keto is the natural state of the human race, which was broken by the agricultural revolution. It's not us ketogenic who are "the exception" - it's you lot, the high-carb eaters. Get some good biochem & nutrition info, from real researchers who do real research, combine that with evolutionary aspects, and you'll be convinced. Or you can convince yourself that eating high-carb is good, because it's sweet & yummie, but in that case I'll ask you to keep me a nice place in heaven, because I'm going to be arriving late ;)
@@stevemullin1195 as I said this diet will work temporarily but is really treating the symptoms and not the cause. This video is worth a watch. ruclips.net/video/uptETdDvDzQ/видео.html
@@NimrodGilAd don’t worry mate I studied this at university and know how to critically read scientific literature. You might want to reconsider what the science says when looking at more than just cherry picked studies. Anecdotal ‘evidence’ is irrelevant as far as debate goes.
@@Cade_Media and the aftertaste... It's like the really hot chiles that come on strong only after a minute, except instead of spiciness it's chemical poo flavor
nice vid mate! i've never drunk nail varnish remover... but i think i likened it to absinth! it's grim stuff. I think everyone should focus on that list of things that ellen suggested before they bother with ketones.
Haha apparently it tastes better these days but not sure how much they can mask that taste 🤣
HVMN version is not the full ketone ester. Ketone IQ" is NOT a "Ketone Ester", it is non-ethanol alcohol, that is R-1,3-butanediol (R-1,3-BDO). Only Ketone Aid and DeltaG provide D-Beta Hydroxybutyrate (D-BHB) Ketone Ester. Those aren't the same at all in terms of physiological response. HVMN USED TO BE the full D-DHB ester, with DeltaG as their supplier. When the agreement ended, DeltaG started selling it under its own name. The full ester creates a much different outcome. The full esters are the ones typically reflected in clinical testing. Repeat this test with either KE4 or DeltaG.
Quick-Step Alpha Vinyl is the first WT team to openly be sponsored by a Ketone Ester, and they use KE.
Can't state this highly enough, they aren't the same thing at all.
Can we please hear from Ellen more often, very informative and informal is refreshing.
Taking EPO results in performance gains, over baseline, irrespective of prior training or exercise, and is similar to blood doping. The way the data from the ketone body testing is presented suggests there wasn’t an increase in performance, there was a 15% decrease in loss of performance. This would appear to be a very important difference - just a lingering thought ;)
Ellen the nutrinionist is the absolute best. more of her please
I had taken part in a research study that was doing testing with ketones, specifically DeltaG. Had to do a few 20min all out efforts, 1 baseline, 1 placebo, and 1 with the real ketone supplement. My lowest performance was with the Keytone drink, mainly because it tasted so bad (may have been the worst thing I've ever tasted honestly) and did not sit well in my stomach, felt like if I pushed as hard as I normally did, I'd puke. Will be interesting to see the overall results of the study once results are published though.
Thanks Francis and Ellen ...I love her accent ! And , one old guy here . I have seen a lot of things come and go...mostly go . Trends or fads are incredible to watch ! .... How about the placebo effect ? Im good with my old ...very old , stand by. Coffee and weed.
Real insight and clear honesty from Ellen. Great combination.
Haha as a type one diabetic I like seeing other people tasting ketones. I always explained ketoasitosis as having drank battery acid so it's nice to hear that confirmed.
That is a lingerer
Generally with things like this your body tends to eventually find its equilibrium again, so you may get a short term increase in epo and red count, but I would imagine over time it will come back down to normal/very slightly above normal
It depends where on the incredibly complex metabolic reaction chains the ketones play a role and it's all speculation until it's peer reviewed and published.
A contrary example to your argument would be vitamin D production in caucasians.
If they've had minimal UV exposure for a long time and they're super pale. They will when exposed to UV produce more vitamin D. Overtime they will tan and find a new equilibrium of vitamin D yes. But, vitamin D production will still be much higher than when there was the minimal UV exposure.
But again, this would be a different metabolic process so it would be foolish to speculate on what the actual long-term changes are, until it's peer reviewed and published.
@@Hill_Walker I would argue that's because vitamin D production without sunlight exposure is actually limited by the resource of sunlight, so if you were to go more extreme and put them in an extremely sunny environment there may be a transient increase but I think it would still generally balance out back to where it would be if they had a regular amount of exposure
Hi Alex. I agree back to baseline, ie homeostasis, often occurs after ‘oral supplementation’ with metabolites. However, there would have to be studies to prove this is the case with this product, as due to the nature of ketone bodies and the oral intake route, there could be a potential to greatly alter the gut microbiome, either transiently or more long term.
@@DPbike yes I definitely agree that it's possible there are long term benefits and we need clinical trials to find out, I suppose I'm just skeptical because marketing can often stretch the truth and there's a long history of products with similar claims to this in other disciplines that ended up essentially having negligible benefit. Definitely doesn't mean this is the same thing though, I would be pleased to be proven wrong
I'm glad you had Ellen on to emphasize that these are _exogenous_ ketones. As such they are quite different from naturally occurring endogenous ketones. The benefits of the former are much different and more limited that the latter. The man-made type _may_ have a function, but they are not the same as the body producing them as the byproduct of changing its metabolism, from carb-burning to fat-burning. But from a performance and recovery perspective, this technology is very provocative & interesting.
But am I right in thinking that the EPO generated is endogenous, which is legal as its a normal bodily function, versus exogenous epo which is the banned dangerous substance?
@@Alchas65 my comments were specifically about the purpose & production of ketones. I haven't looked into how the EPO associated with this "supplement" is characterized. Perhaps that is clarified in the HVMN documentation.
So far the studies that weren’t directly paid for by HVMN, have shown basically zero results. And also interesting, the Pro teams that use it, are being paid too. Basically don’t get caught in the hype, and do some research.
Great to see Jimmi back again😀Best regards Martin
Just one thing to point out. Whenever you say something along the lines of 'I'm not qualified, I'm not a nutritionist', keep in mind that neither are nutritionists. There is a medical field that deals in human nutrition and experts in this field are called dietitians - nutritionists are just random people, without a medical degree, that like to tell others what to do. Comparing a dietitian to a nutritionist is like comparing a scientist to a scientologist.
You're right, nutritionist isn't a protected term, like dietician, however that doesn't mean they're all bad, quite the opposite.
Your wording is confusing and contradictory. Neither nutritionist nor dietician have medical degrees. The important thing is that one needs to check peoples' credentials. Ellen has a BSc (though we don't have details on the subjects/majors) and has studied to get a diploma in performance nutrition - from the quick look, it seems that that is a legitimate credential. By the same token, a dietician may or may not have specific working knowledge when it comes to advising athletes on optimum intake. "nutritionist" may or may not be a trustworthy descriptor: you have to dig deeper to find out.
@@peacay You are unfortunately completely wrong, sir/madam - not only in your incorrect spelling of the word itself. In the UK, the title 'dietitian' is regulated by law and you need a medical degree to become part of the regulatory body that sets rules of your practice. On the other side - anyone can call themselves a nutritionist - you, me, and the guy that dropped out of school at 12. End of story.
I’m some parts of Canada there is a protected designation for nutritionists. So while I agree with what you’re saying as a whole, there are exceptions to the rule. I believe they are held to the same standard as dieticians i those areas.
@@peacay I’m a sports dietitian. registered dietitian. Licensed, board certified, and credentialed. There is a specific Bachelors in Science in food and nutrition sciences I have had to obtain as well as going through supervised hours after graduation to then be eligible to sit for an exam to be able to be credentialed and say RD.
All of this to say, I have a specific degree as well does everyone in my profession. We have all gone through a form of residency and we have all been board certified.
Cheers
Excellent report. I really like your channel. It’s always something different.
Probably make a good chain degreaser 👍🤣
I heard 1 whole bottle will stop any and all bottom bracket noise for a single ride. Good value if you ask me, if I had a squeaky bike.
Great video! I tried that stuff out. Not the single serving format, but the bigger bottles with 3 or 4 servings. Can't say that I see any benefit for pre-ride, but I CAN say that it helps massively with recovery after a big ride (4+ hours). I don't feel nearly as hammered the next day. I guess there might be something to it, but more research is prolly needed.
Elaboration on sucking at carb timing might be a nice follow up..
Very impressed with your knowledgeable nutritionist.
Not gone buy it though could use the money better on coffeestops and longer rides with intervals.
This is interesting, I suppose it raises the question of where you draw the line with supplementation too. High doses of nitrate rich beetroot juice come to mind for their supposed benefits in time trials.
It’s always been suspected that Team Sky were the first to use ketones, although this was denied by certain pro riders and coaches. But looking back at various performances their advantages and that of other teams since seem questionable.
Even Lance Armstrong questioned this back in 2019 on his Move podcast, which considering his history seems a bit ironic.🤔
Takes one to know one.
Seems to me something suspect is going on in the Pro Peleton these days. I remember Greg Lemond saying about the early nineties his figures were the same but he was going backward in the peloton. It appears something similar is happening now. Some of the performances demonstrated by members of a certain team in the last few TdF's look highly suspect and how is it that natural climbers are now struggling to win stages or that someone like Peter Sagan suddenly becomes un-competitive.
It could be that Sky were the first to use ketones, who knows? We will never get the truth if they were. It looks to me though that another team has either learned to use them more effectively (if Sky has indeed used them) or is the first to do so or has found something else more effective. Hello Jumbo Visma.
The irony about Armstrong is not lost on me and possibly there is a bit of bitterness there, but you would have thought that he knows what he is talking about. Following the Alpe D'Huez stage in his last tour his comments about Contador's performance that day were somewhat telling. Reading between the lines, with what we know now about Armstrong, he was saying "I have been well prepared (doped up) and yet been well beaten by someone. What's he on?" And were these comments wrong? I doubt it judging by Contador's dodgy history.
The big difference between this and EPO injections is that this can promote your body to make more EPO instead of you forcing synthetic EPO into your bloodstream
Hopefully your body producing EPO, through this process, regulates, the levels at a safe threshold unlike hooking up to an IV.
There is also the argument, that sport should be doped as long as it's at safe levels. But that seems even harder than it already is to enforce as they'd be regulating a bolted horse with a closed stable door.
More of Ellen I could listen to her for hours 😊
Yes let’s have her as a regular! Like most studies in sports science the test subjects seem to be young super light weight highly fit males, if not elites. It’s good to have Ellen qualify the current studies.
Some interesting comments.
Just a note what happens to excess ketones? You simply pee them out. Yes ketone strips are cheaply used to test if you are in ketosis. Vs having to draw blood ( this is required to measure).
Would be great to get you mate, Will Girling's thoughts and knowledge on this if he's available and allowed to talk about it.
Super cool vid, very interesting. I'm here to ask the real hard hitting questions which is of course... Where did Ellen McDermot get that sweatshirt!?
It’s an oj wheels sweater not sure where specifically but a lot of skate shops have oj apparel
@@andrewcollins6736 thanks!
All well and good, but does it improve the aerodynamics of a bike trailer?!
Or fix carbon fibre, after hitting a brick on the road.
Great video. You should check out Delta G Ketone. Thats the one predominantly used in the peloton. I know the guys at Delta G would gladly share their research with you in great detail. Delta G use the original ketone ester developed by Oxford Uni. HVMN used to but they can’t anymore and their new IQ ester is now a different type. Not all ketones are equal. Current studies on BHB ketones (Delta G) would indicate limited improvements to performance but up to 15% faster recovery by rapidly assisting in restoring muscle glycogen and reduced post race muscle atrophy. Notably when ingested alongside carbs, not instead of. As for the banned substance thing, it’s another form of energy, your bodies natural emergency supply when it goes into starvation. Nothing remotely like any banned substance. Arguably no difference for example to using caffeine, creatine or nitrite shots in terms of the need for it being on ‘the list.’ When all is said and done all the current science would indicate carbs are king for high energy cycling.
Yes DeltaG and KE4 brands are in the peleton. Quickstep just signed KE as a partner.
Even Lance Armstrong has an endorsement on their website, so it must be good stuff.
I know someone (a body builder)who went on a very strick Jeti diet which he ate five skinless chicken breasts a day and several avacodos and a very low amount of carbohydrates .. the had one bad side effect as he had severe constipation and needed 5 enemas to flush out all the merde ..but he placed well in the competition though
Lance gives this 2 thumbs up.
Ellen's 'again men' at 7.07 was Mrs. Doyle level (Fr. Ted reference). Great info. More Ellen.
As it is expensive stuff then regardless of health risks or not, if these benefits are substantial then it will get banned just to level the playing field.
They sent us a bunch for free too. You mentioned that the barrier was the price for most folks. Our barrier for using it was... it doesn't do anything.
Point to note. APPARENTLY this brand of ketone is not the same make up as a couple of other prominent brands.
It is also NOT the brand that Quickstep are using.
Cut out your carbs gradually for 2 weeks to none for 2-3 days then do a 14 day water/electrolyte fast like I did at the end of 2022...on day 6 of zero food I went for a bike ride did 43km in 1hr 51m....Ketones that day were 8mmol/l .... (nutritional ketosis is regarded as between 1.5-3.0 mmol/l)... Yes you will never win a race (that I know of?) on "fat burning" but your body has months of food on it that most of us just keep adding to and rarely use up because constant carb eating means insulin is produced and that turns off fat burning.... keto works for sure, and cutting down hugely (she said 50g, that's "low carb", you need to get down to 20g a day)turns off hunger like you wouldn't believe... Most compare fat burning as the reliable, low tuned diesel engine that purrs away on an almost endless source of fuel...and carb dependent (bike racing?!)fuelling is F1/jetfuel.... when you run out you crash and burn. Being able to switch between both (metabolic flexibility) is pretty critical..
Interesting - but I believe that HVMN is NOT an ester - it is alcohol based. The only two companies that are genuine Esters I believe are DeltaG (Oxford UK) and KetoneAid in USA. The production cost of using Ester as a base is very high - originally $2000 for 1 litre! Now, with more of a consumer market it has fallen to around $150 per litre - but it is still expensive - which is why, I presume, that HVMN uses alcohol. Other companies provide Ketones using salts, which are much cheaper but very problematic. Esters are easy and natural for the body to metabolise and make absorption of the key ketone (Beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB)) very quick. Nearly all of the independent science has been conducted using Esters. As far as it becoming a banned substance - that is unlikely happen, because BHB (the core Ketone that drives the energy or ATP) is already in your body and you cannot survive without it. It's not a drug. A ketone ester is simply raising your level of BHB, without you having to break down fats in your body (by exercise or by fasting).
Ellen's power is legit
liver breakdowns fatty acids into acetone = what you are tasting is nail polish
if you ask contador, he'll tell you he was eating pasta and candy during 3 week races. lol. Performance enhancer are one of the pilars of cycling and no one talks about it.
I'd not be against athletes having to submit daily urine samples in the build up to the big races.
Would be interesting to see if the peloton performance in the Grand Tours suddenly dropped relative to the rest of the calander.
And you say this based on what exactly; the internet?
@@Penalist based on cycling books, biographies and journalists investigations, whats the point of your question, exactly?
@@sweatnosweat That those sources cover cases in, in particular, the Armstrong era. There is no indication whatsoever that, "lol", "performance enhancer are one of the pilars of [present-day] cycling" (sic). The addition of no-one is (presently) talking about it, is 'begging the question'. So, where is your evidence that cycling (as a whole?) is built on PEDs. I.e., given the current facts and circumstances, the exact converse of your statement (to wit: PEDs are no longer an integral part of cycling) also may be very well true.
@@Penalist i'm not here to convince you of anything, think whatt ever the fuck you want. pointless conversation. have a good one.
If i wanna take it to get better performance in a race how long before the race should I take it, should I take one every day up to the race or what? Should I take any supplements to it? I just wanna know how you handle it. Thanks again for all the good videos and appreciate your work keep doing what you do!!!
Im doing the Cape Epic this year, wonder if i can get some down south 🤔
Very Apt this video on Ketones, and the effect possible on EPO, have heard a case of an professional athlete who is awaiting B sample testing results but has been provisionally suspended for EPO, Low range - slightly elevated. Makes you think could this stuff been ingested / used, and could it have had that EPO effect???
Update on this? Any more a year later? Very interesting.
Unfortunately no evidence to suggest that you actually get more RBCs as a result or for how long it lasts for. Ketones also reduce blood glucose levels.
Not for me. I can think of better ways to spend my money. PS. Where is Daisy. Hope she is ok.
The WADA rules are written to preempt any new performance enhancers coming out - "The following substances (EPO), and other substances with similar chemical structure or , are prohibited." - So if ketones actually do boost EPO they are already banned by the word of the rules.
Of course how you go about enforcing that when it's a boosted natural process and not an artificial route is a different thing.
UK Sport gave ketone esters to London 2012 medal hopefuls
These were separate from UK Sport’s own trials on athletes ahead of London 2012. UK Sport’s statement details a Confidential Disclosure Agreement (CDA) involving UK Sport, Oxford University, UK Anti-Doping (UKAD) and the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). ‘At this point in time and based on the confidential information from TAS [Court of Arbitration for Sport] we have reviewed, we have no reason to consider such substances as banned under the 2011 List of Prohibited Substances and Methods’, reads a statement from WADA featuring in UKAD’s reply to UK Sport (PDF below).
Following UKAD’s response, UK Sport’s Research Advisory Group (RAG) approved the Ketone Ester Project in January 2012 (PDF below). This reveals the official name for UK Sport’s research project was ‘The effects of acute supplementation with a ketone ester on training and competition performance in Olympic sports: a repeated measures case study series’.
im not really sure how safe it is, im type 1 diabetic and we can end up in in DKA (Diabetic ketoacidosis) which is basically when you get ketones in your system and it can kill you, no idea if its the same sort of thing or only effects diabetics but ketones rings alarm bells for me
Totally different. Yes DKA is deadly to T1 diabetics. To the average person, their body is able to utilise them, so the ketones won't build up to dangerous levels like you have issues.
Great accent on Ellen, there, and interesting summary of the results. 15% is serious business. 270 watts for 30 minutes? Bonkers. She gets more impressive by the minute. "Again, men" ha ha haaaa.
I had heard of the dietary aspects before, which were interesting on their own. But if it's increasing EPO and RBC and massively improving recovery, that's pretty amazing.
See if Will Girling will come back and weigh in on this, too!
lets go to our nutritionist who knows soo little about the biochemistry she has to check bulletpoints for the most basic ketone metabolism
sounds like Buckley's cough mixture...which is like Silvo
So it's an EPO/ketone ester cocktail supplement that begs for a compressed air/whiskey chaser -- got it
Very interesting. I've watched the development of these. Professors Phinney and Volek have done some of the most extensive tests on athletes (particularly cyclists) in the state of ketosis. Yes, it takes a few months to get to a state of efficiency to be able to utilise it in exercise (in short the body needs to grow more mitochondira to use). It is definatley of benefit in low intensity endurance (audax/brevet) type riding but studies on racing is still being done. You can be pretty bonk proof! Using exogenous ketones (so drinking them) won't put your body into a state of ketosis but can have other advantages for brain function. Be interesting to see how you go with them.
I take it so I can kick my son's ass on the hills. At 68 I'll take anything to give me an edge. :)
Pump his tyres full of water instead of air, realign his brake calipers if he's on discs so they rub and finally fill his water bottles with heavy water (it is safe to drink).
Really you're just giving him training aides and making him fitter and healthier. You winning up the hill is just a benign bonus.
All caring parents should take these steps, especially the heavy water one, super good value for money.
Think I'll just stick to being slow thanks, drinking something that tastes like nail varnish, battery acid, bile or crushed paracetamol not that appealing. By the sound of it you'd need a fairly well controlled environment dietary wise to get the best gains as in World Tour teams. Are you going to be using them?
Hi, i do have a question, first of all : BIG FAN OF ALL YOUR VIDEO'S , YOU GUYS GREAT, for exemple i loved the robot companion in switzerland LOL LOL LOL so ilarious. Anyway my question is : will the Exogenous Ketone Supplements, be a god idea for me ? i am an ( i like to think to be a good one) AMATOUR rider , i have already succeed on ride one 300km and one 400km in one day, now i would like to do one 1500km in 3 days, is my first multy days ride and i am a bit worried, so what do you think it ill be a good idea for me to use it or not? THANKS IN ADVACE FOR YOUR TIME ,and more important THANKS FOR YOUR VIDEOS.
Don’t think it’s a good idea to mix Epo and Redbull!
Why can't red wine create EPO?
"It comes in waves"🤣
What is Ellen's sweat shirt?!
OJ's - Skateboard wheel company
the new HVMN ketone drink tastes so much better than the previous one. which is saying something! Also, the research into them is so new and changing, but, currently it's showing that it's actually more beneficial for recovery vs. day of performance. Taking a swig of one bottle once pre or post workout won't do anything, but, at least a more routine use post hard workouts has a potentially greater chance of helping you recover. #NotSponsored haha
It tastes much better because it's R-1,3-butanediol (R-1,3-BDO). Only Ketone Aid and DeltaG provide D-Beta Hydroxybutyrate (D-BHB). HVMN isn't the fuller ester. It used to be.
@@meatmotorendurance What's going on man - I'm the CEO of H.V.M.N. & cofounder. With Ketone-IQ we created a diol, which is 3x more efficient than any ester in terms of dollars per gram of ketone. That’s why our v1 was an ester and then we updated to the diol. No one is else able to deliver 10g ketones for $4
does it do the same as if you did breath holding???
Slippery slope Francis, next you'll be donning a US Postal jersey, taking the Trek for a spin !
Thoughts with the LAPD guys who escorted you, Justin & friends that final day in LA.
Awful events they're getting called to attend, at speed, while most are heading the opposite direction ! Brave ain't the word
Stacked on epo it works great.😜
I miss that wheelchair bloke but good to see you back to form
New Chanel idea: Jimmy tasting weird things?
Could it be a masking agent for actual EPO? i.e. "no, I didn't inject EPO, I drank a few litres of this stuff! Honest!"
Awesome & Thanks :)
0:56 fashion brand BVLGARI 🤣🤣🤣
cordyceps probably good for cycling too
It's not that your body CAN produce it, it's that your body DOES and MUST produce it to govern the levels of red blood cells in your blood. It's a non-optional aspect of staying alive.
Where in the hell did she get an OJ2 shirt???
Great show, but you don't need to eat carbs as we make it, which I'm sure you guys already know. How about doing a deep dive in to all the athletes that use Keto/Carnivore in their training and competition.
ASK SPEIO! he will teach you about ketones :D
Think i'll just stick to a banana and dried apricots, keep it natural.
Durianrider” hold my banana smoothie 😤😫”
So you guys are drinking Malort now?
yyyeeeeessss, that is exactly what i thought of as well.
Scientific studies suggest that your average MAMIL would shave 2-3 seconds off their Fred Whitton finish time. Worth it for the rich. 🤑
On the one hand, there's nothing wrong with discussing this topic. On the other hand, this video appears to be a paid promotion aka an ad, which is kind of a bummer.
It is not.
If something is paid then it legally has to be declared 👍
Obviously its Carbs > Ketone.
Skip 2 minutes 40 seconds in
Oxford Spinout T∆S ha e been doing this for a few years now...
i think the "v" is actually a stylized "y", i.e. it's pronounced "hymen".
Someone should buy me some. I have a naturally low level that's below the lower limit.
I wish they had covered if it will make my cycle to work faster....will I be able to pass that old lady on her basket bike after all....
No, because her basket is full of EPO
I’ve tried this product and didn’t work for me. The taste is terrible, you have no idea. It actually made me bonk pretty hard.
Francis looking like Mr Beast giving away all those bottles!
Ketone IQ are not Ketone esters. The first ketonedrink from HVMN was, but IQ isnt.
As a nurse practitioner that has written orders for kids on seizure prophylactic ketogenic diets including total parenteral nutrition (with the help of registered dietician and pharmacist) I find it hilarious to see amateur athletes trying to simplify things down to drinking a bottle of ketones. Will you see improvement in performance, a tiny (based on real world results). Even Ollie, with a PhD in chemistry, does not have a PhD in biochem and does not know what happens at a macro level to the liver over a career of taking supplemental ketones. I'll wait to see what happens to the pros in 10 years. Hope they don't have liver failure at 50.
You should ask Ellen the nutritionist if when mixed with Red Bull does it create unstoppable gains. 😂
Ellen is a McDonald’s nutrition?
Does that mean I can eat the Golden Arches all day and be a pro 😂💪🏻🙋🏻♂️
As an overweight rider I'm doing a keto diet to lose weight as the low carb also helps with lowering my A1C and controlling my type 2 diabetes. You can also take MCT oil which is from coconuts to get ketone quickly. Ketogenic diet is great if your an endurance rider like going long distance cross country. This could have helped you and Justin on your crosscountry trip in USA.
This is probably the worst advice for an endurance athlete and just about anyone to be honest. It is also a bad way of controlling type 2 diabetes and may work in the short term but it will cause more health problems further down the line.
@@dylanconnor5064 my diabetes doc has me on a low carb diet as I'm insulin resistant and need to lose weight. Currently at 270 and need to lose 70 lbs to get to healthy weight. I'm on mounjaro for weight loss and A1C control along with doing cycling for cardio workouts. I'm training to do long tours on either my recumbent trike or a touring bike like a kona sutra and stay in zone 2 HR...don't have a power meter.
@@dylanconnor5064 I'm doing keto for several years now, and my endurance has gone up the roof. You can go for hours on an empty stomach, no bonking, better performance etc. Safe as hell, and in fact much safer and healthier that the high-carb diets. Keto is the natural state of the human race, which was broken by the agricultural revolution. It's not us ketogenic who are "the exception" - it's you lot, the high-carb eaters. Get some good biochem & nutrition info, from real researchers who do real research, combine that with evolutionary aspects, and you'll be convinced. Or you can convince yourself that eating high-carb is good, because it's sweet & yummie, but in that case I'll ask you to keep me a nice place in heaven, because I'm going to be arriving late ;)
@@stevemullin1195 as I said this diet will work temporarily but is really treating the symptoms and not the cause. This video is worth a watch. ruclips.net/video/uptETdDvDzQ/видео.html
@@NimrodGilAd don’t worry mate I studied this at university and know how to critically read scientific literature. You might want to reconsider what the science says when looking at more than just cherry picked studies. Anecdotal ‘evidence’ is irrelevant as far as debate goes.
If those tan lines blend in within the next few days, Francis, then you know you need to stop them 😅
Monkfruit is the worst. I don't know how anyone can add that to improve taste.
Seems when they're starting from such a low bar, it's viable 😅
innit, why not strawberry
@@Cade_Media and the aftertaste... It's like the really hot chiles that come on strong only after a minute, except instead of spiciness it's chemical poo flavor
ancient Latin used V and was read as U :)
Interesting Topic Francis. Expensive marginal gains for cyclists performances.
Someone please mix this with coffee and make James Hoffmann drink it!
ha ha haaaaa. put it in some instant coffee, with a trace of salt.
Doubt it is the wildest😅
Interesting… It’s like that booster c shot thing
How does it compare with beetroot shots…They work and they are disgusting