How They Dope today?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 15 ноя 2021
- Blood doping in peloton still exists but is different than in 90s. The Athlete Biological Passport become a tool used to calibrate doping strategy by teams. Blood manipulation methods are more sophisticated as the bio-markers used in ABP can detect anomalies in athlete's blood profile.
This video is based on publications below although presents personal opinion on several subjects.
Publications:
ABP: rua.ua.es/dspace/bitstream/10...
Carsten Lundby - Science of blood doping detection: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
WADA note about removing default access to ABP profile for an athlete (October 2021): adams-help.wada-ama.org/hc/en...
Factors confounding ABP: sportsmedicine-open.springero...
Micro-dosing and ABP: www.researchgate.net/publicat...
EPO Micro-dosing and ABP: www.researchgate.net/publicat...
Baesian inference: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesia...
Other sources:
www.researchgate.net/publicat...
www.sportsintegrityinitiative...
www.cyclingnews.com/features/...
www.cyclingnews.com/features/...
• Tadej Pogačar's RECORD...
• Dr Michael Ashenden - ...
• ADAMS 3.0 - Whereabout...
www.cyclingnews.com/features/...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biologi...
www.raeng.org.uk/RAE/media/Ev...
I feel sorry for athletes who have initial success, but eventually face the choice of doping in order to be competitive at the higher levels, or refusing to dope and having to give up their careers.
Presupposing that you actually have to dope to be competitive in any given sport. That, to me, seems a stretch. My impression is that clean athletes have been, and are, competitive in most sports. But yeah, if you wanna consistently beat the other dopers you need to dope. And that’s exactly when you start stealing from clean athletes.
@@Metusalem979 no, in the tdf in the past almost everyone doped.
@@piterdeboer2026 Yep. It may not have been as sophisticated back then, but they definitely using PEDs.
dude..... my cousin used to be among the best amateur MTB riders like 20 years ago, as soon as he turned 18 years old and got offered a pro contract he was told if he ain't doping he ain't be winning, so he decided to drop out and get into motorcycling.
@@Metusalem979 particularly not true in cycling.
There is widespread doping and/or ped use in every sport at the top levels.
It's interesting how since Lance became " the fall guy" for doping, it's not even discussed in the TDF anymore. This is good imfo.
It went away, by magic 😂
It’s still discussed and I don’t even follow the sport as much as I did back in the late 1990’s.
What a great and informative video. I couldn’t stop watching. I hope to see more of this. Also learned a lot. Thank
That was extremely informative and answered many of my questions, thank you very much.
I raced in the 80s and 90s. Found out 10 yrs later that most of my competitors even in the amateurs were doping. Sad
This is interesting. You think they took stimulants/pain killers on race day or something more powerfull during preparation like steroids. Some said it is easy to find symptoms of testosteron/gh curation if someone has lean muscle mass (low body fat) but a bit oversized stomach.
Apparently you aren't that familiar with English?
What does last sentence mean?
I'm naturally built like, (how I guess), you're trying to describe.
Never doped, not even a cup of coffee... 💪🏻💯
@@OmmerSyssel it's widely known steroid overuse can cause your intestines to grow as well and you end up with a muscular, pot belly look, amongst other things.
I owned a bike shop in the 90's and knew of amateur, local riders who were using steroids for un-important local events, and thus expected everyone in the Pro's to be doing something.
@@gregroles5638 it is obvious such "amateurs" were risking heart diseases or cancer. Much depends on how long they took steroids in uncontrolled way.
Wow, I'm blown away by the quality of the comments you've encouraged. Best thread on this subject ever, I hope it grows over the next few days, we need more of this. My fear is that there's not much hope as long as Vino, Rys, Hauptman and that scoundrel Brailsford are allowed to continue in the sport. This analysis was excellent- maybe the next one could be about "dirty DS's" just ask David Millar about Brailsford.
Sports is all doped at the highest level there is also something with 4 or 5 riders suddenly 20 years old and demolishing everyone uphill downhill flats or time trials.
This is not a coincidence a 27 year old is stronger than a 23 year old
No
Something is odd.
I think they manipulated the biological passport they new guys never before tested so they submit these guys at a young age with 50 hematocrit, highest testosterone levels possible for a human, so their biological passport is based on superhuman numbers in every criteria. The perfect athlete a skinny boyish no muscles guy with T levels of an Olympic weightlifter.
With red blood levels of a Tibetan sherpa..
Also TUes is old hat now..
They all need inhalers they all need hormone replacement therapy etc etc...
Israel start up nation will start to moan watch this space.
Doping or performance enhacing substances have been part of modern sport since the late 19th century. Nowadays even normal persons going to the gym want to get big like athletes and take steroids. How are you going to end a trend that started to affect every human that practices a sport? In the future doping will be the norm, only excentrics will remain natural.
@@detolerandisstultorum smoking has been a part of human existence "for ever", doesn't make it smart, fair, healthy or just. People who use potentially dangerous chemicals and methods as a shortcut/substitute for effort and practice are cheating themselves as well as everyone else. Vanity is one of the deadly sins, lust another, envy another and they all play into personal PED use, like cosmetic surgery when not medically necessary. I race bicycles competitively and I believe very few racers are doped (world tour riders almost all doped). Maybe at the "gym" people who push weights around for appearances sake are majority doped but that is the exception. Step out of that environment for a run, bike ride, swim, a vigorous hike or rock climbing - all will improve your health and make you prettier (Maybe not bigger, but more cut and leaner). Eccentrics will live longer, healthier and happier lives, naturally.
Have you got any links to comments/videos from David Millar?
Professional sports have always been corrupt one way or another. There's simply far too much money involved , gambling is tied in as well. When people are willing to pay $100 for a few hours entertainment not to mention, well over $1000, I don't know what to say. It just sounds like they've got money to burn.
Athletes aren't the only ones involved in sports corruption. They're not the ones making the most money either.
The biggest problem in cycling is the UCI, their incompetence and their corruption.
Pro sports are mere entertainment. Its the same thing as gladiator games. Simply a spectacle. The money often turns it into a carnival freak show.
The only way for consumers to cause a change is to deprive the business of money. As consumers, that's our only power really.
I believe more folks should get off their butts, turn off the freakin TV, turn off the devices. Go for a ride. Get children involved and off their devices. Get involved with others to actually participate in sport.
The method for avoiding detection for autologous blood transfusion is WAY more complex than you described.. remember they test “off score” ratio of mature to immature blood cells.. injecting a large amount of blood cells would completely throw that off and easily be detected.. so rider will use a micro-dose of EPO to stimulate blood cell growth (over night as you describe) not to cheat, but to mask the transfusion by adding immature blood cells and correct for off score.. the next night they will need to inject blood plasma to bring down hematocrit that will go up from the EPO.. more complicated, but doable!
Interesting technique: mature blood infusion, EPO dosing and finaly plasma injection. Much of hassle to workaround off-score... I presume can be done but under supervision as there are three variables to tweak. Maybe times were riders were doing infusion alone are gone...
@@RoadBikersPoznan this is the procedure Floyd Landis gave to WADA.. essentially how they were able to catch Contador.. they knew exactly what he’d be doing and targeted him.. used detection levels WAY lower than team were expecting and found clenbuterol likely used in training when blood drawn.. another complication.. blood drawn during training has to be clean.. most teams had their own testing machines.. even bought same model as testers so could anticipate what testers would find.. this is 2003-2013 procedure.. likely been finessed a bit.. but if done properly would still avoid detection today..
..and absolutely.. rider needs help with this one.. one other detail.. EPO must be given intravenously, not intra-muscular.. or will not clear fast enough and not be undetectable overnight..
They can detect blood doping because of plastic its stored in..that's how far they are
@@polski1986 dopers are too smart for that.. not detecting “plastic”.. they are detecting “plasticizer”.. a liquid you add inside your blood bags to lubricate and makes the cells last a bit longer.. but not necessary at all.. you’d have to be a pretty low level hack to use blood bags with plasticizer inside your blood bags knowing it’s easily detected!
The UCI simply controls doping today. They use the TUE system to allow riders to dope. Teams that can pay the most, get the advantage of doping. In other words, teams can buy an advantage. UCI directors do not have to submit their financial records to a third party for review to ensure they are not being bribed. It is VERY unusual that directors of a sporting commission do not have to make such disclosures.
You can provide proof of this, right?
@@cracked229 lol
What is TUE?
Exactly 👏 an excellent answer Sir 👍
@durianrider
Whos wayching after Vingegaard TdF time trial 23" 😅
MVPD after the Roubaix, 48km/h ave speed over cobbles with 60km solo attack, over 1 hour faster than FC fastest time.
The Biological passport means all new pros young talented riders can very early in their carreers before they have ever been tested be doped then have their biological passport taken at an insane level.
That is probably why all the newcomrrs were so young and winning.
The youngest winners the sports ever seen.
The older generation of riders are stuck with their low level passports
Agree. Athlete Biological Record is built incrementally and subsequent Bayesian adaptive model predictions are based on individual blood variables collected earlier. If the entry, reference point of data collection concerns already doped teenager then ABP may not trigger alarm bells in the future as it will be comparing "doped variables" to "doped variables".
@Vegan's R Silly you guys got this right on the mark. I trust only MVDP's results because he has been doing this since the age of eight, with a video record to prove it. Either his father is the worst dad in the world ( a racer who was accused of doping) and encouraged his kids to cheat or MVDP is really that dominant. Who knows? I love cycling, suspect everyone and despise all this nationalistic fan-boy crap that has hurt the sport I love. Excellent video!
Two things:
a) doping is a ‘cherry on top’ these guys really are born special freaks of nature and THEN doping adds they extra 5%.. but not necessarily evenly.. some are hyper-responders so will benefits some more than others.. shifts playing field doesn’t level it as some claim..
b) the newer drugs are not oxygen/blood vector based so bio-passport is useless against them.. things like metabolic modulator, drugs that act like opioids and block central nervous system signalling for exhaustion
@@doctorSpoc I think of it as every pro starts at 100% and doping is just another scale
@@doctorSpoc May i ask if your willing to say what do you think there are doing now days besides micro dosing ?
Good video. Also note that some athletes have almost certainly taken advantage of reduced/ zero out of competition testing due to covid lockdown restrictions to dope
If Finessing with micro dosing was being done by 90% of the peloton it would be discovered as the chance of getting it wrong is
Too great for it not to be detected
@@mididoctors ah a relief to know they're all clean then 😜
Temporary retirements are a good way to not get tested and come back better too.
And that clearly happened across a whole host of sports. Just look at the improved performances in track/athletics last year. Women in their mid 30s were running faster than they had ever before. Three runners smashed a long standing world record all in the same race. It was so obvious, but most the fans on social media refuse to believe it.
@@gustaaf1892 plenty of new drugs out there. As you say the records broken in athletics recently are amazing. Slovenia hitting big in cycling compared to other countries. Curious
Doping might be like war.
Someone once said that we will always have war, until the majority think that war is disgusting. Until regarded as disgusting, war will go on
Perhaps same doping.
I am disgusted w doping. I hope more join in this disgust
If there was a crack house in your neighborhood and the people who routinely visited the house had been busted numerous times with crack and then they have interviews about how they bought crack in the house, anyone with pattern recognition would guess any new visitors to the crack house were also smoking crack... Great video. These methods were well documented by people like Floyd Landis. He said it cost him about $80k for the program. I thought that was interesting. Even people at the local level get busted now and then when there's some testing at an event... Desire to win drives some people crazy
As a medical lab technician... The Blood count (Hb/Ht, reticulocytes,...) tubes wont be that reliable after 24h. Serum, plasma and unine will last way longer, month or even years in good conditions. A blood bag, for safety reasons have 35-42 days shelf life. This is dangerous, this is very sketchy. This is insane in my opinion. EPO would be a much safer way to dope and this is also dangerous. All of this could lead to blood clots and that mean: CVA, pulmonary embolism, heart attack,...
But if you add a bag of blood which has 55% hct to a body which is already carrying 55% hct the increase in performance would be insane. Your legs will suffer but your cardio would be amazing.
Aren't they supposed to take blood thinning medicine along with EPO?
At least that how I won TDF ... 🚵🚴💯🍾🤷🏼
I believe that happened to Ricardo Ricco.
Lance Armstrong is the ultimate scapegoat for corporate and industry profits. After he was used up, he got dumped.
He's not a scapegoat he's the biggest cheater ever to be caught. I worked with a pro cyclist, former world champion who left Lance's team because he wouldn't dope.
@@BestKiteboardingOfficial dope your F. It was all fair game. Today they still do it.
@@georgiaguardian4696 If was fair game it wouldn't be illegal, plain and simple. Some of us want the best most gifted athlete to win, not the biggest cheat with the best pharmacist.
@BestKiteboardingOfficial It's a combo of the two. If you need heroes, choose them from somewhere outside of sport. PED use will always be an issue in pro sport.
the dude is rich and is still on podcasts and shows, don't worry too much for him
Excellent video on the murky topic. It's tough at the top.
Great video. Anyone that thinks pro cycling is clean is obviously blind. Cycling at that level is cutthroat folks.....
TUEs are used across the board in almost every sport.
All the top riders dope.
Doping will always occur in professional sports. Money, fame = motivation to win, and cheating cannot be completely controlled.
It's not about how effective the dope or methods of cheating are, but how smart the cheating doctors are keeping up with how to cheat the testing. This video nails it in every regard.
Not just professional sport.
Professional sports are very simply, mere entertainment. Non 'professionals' shouldn't take them so seriously. Get a life, DIY.
Go for a ride with children or your friends.
Take the money away and things could actually change. I choose to not support, spend money or waste much time on 'pro' sports, I'm doing my part.
@@rollinrat4850 Respectfully sports have their place. They are great motivation and inspiration as long as you watch with open eyes and an informed mind.
I'd rather watch the TdF in the 90s again than almost all the crap like MAFS and other reality shows that are there for our entertainment.
The TdF as an example serves as my faith. I'd rather be inspired by pro cyclists (even knowing many probably still dope) than a little man in the sky.
Everyone needs entertainment. Yours might be beer with mates. Or going out for a night gambling. or watching a hollywood movie. All of these are arguably worse or more so, than being counted as a viewer of a sport with dopers.
There's plenty of acceptable social entertainment that encourages people to engage in unhealthy aspects that funnel money into bad businesses and companies making questionable choices.
People will always buy things and that comes with endorsements. Be it a pro sports person or an online 'influencer' or marketer....there is always going to be money flowing to the people that sell. And people selling will always try to take advantage of others. Be it the other individual competitors, other companies or you as the consumer.
Also...not every 'non' professional even with drugs can achieve what pro athletes do. They are by definition the very best of us...regardless of what they use to get there...drugs, insane amounts of R&D that none of us eve could afford, legal non drug treatments, huge support networks etc etc etc.
If you don't want to watch. COol man. But keep in mind not everyone can get out there are do it instead of watching it (injuries temp or perm) and again...some of us prefer more legitimate entertainment than fabricated crap like MAFS or any number of reality shows or evn scripted shows that are created to suppress and keep societies entertained and docile.
@@lf1980 All pro sports are corrupt in some manner. All motivated by money like other popular entertainment. Its just a spectacle. Like pro wrestling or gladiators.
I may watch now and then, but it's with a very cynical eye and they never get my money. My wife's boss actually takes us to NHL games every now and then. Its a business outing.
Want real entertainment? Get off the couch and go play with some kids. Get kids involved to actually play a sport, go outside, enjoy the outdoors, get off the devices and be more healthy. Lots of Americans aren't very healthy. But my family is.
@@rollinrat4850 i agree the money has corrupted professional sports most are juicing. doping or doing something to get the edge. True sport competition takes place with weekend warriors, pee wee, jr high and high school kids. Buy a bunch of tennis rackets or bikes for the family and go outside and play.
Very interesting report I’ve known doping is a real issue in cycling but it is my favorit sport again, I love watching classic races on tv and despite doping I hope that great champions still win ..
Any winner of the tour will always be suspected its part of winning unfortunately and will never go away
Today Pogi and Roglic are put on the spot...
*If* there are doped riders in the TDF, and the winners are able to surpass doped riders, how likely is it that the winners are doped as well? It's quite disillusioning, but that's life.
The doping today we probably dont even know about...that will be revealed in time.
The UCI has given up chasing the doping epidemic.Pro cycling cannot afford another scandal financially.Sponsors would evaporate.
Bro it is ALL sports not just cycling.
If you think testing works then just look at the UFC and swimming lol.
Agree it concerns all sports. The funny thing is that even in chess there is a doping. GMs cannot enter the room without leaving their cell phones before electronic gate. Also time spent in toilets is monitored so they can't capture next move from Stockfish or Alpha chess engines... However the type of methodologies and substances obviously differs between disciplines. Probably in endurance sports blood doping is more effective than in team sports or combat sports where steroids and stimulants are applied. Anyway at the highest level of competition where the training load is insane you can't survive without "additional help" for your body. It is not only about enhancing performance but making the recovery process faster.
@@RoadBikersPoznan Correct.
In all sports boosting red blood cells, focus, breathing ability and power to weight ratio are ONLY possible at the top tier with the help of pharma product.
within 5 seconds of audio it's clear the dude lost hella money on Vlasov for GC
Great video, thanks
All top level atheletes use. How do you know? RECOVERY. it would be IMPOSSIBLE to recover fast enough for another punishing day without PEDS. The human body simply cannot do it naturally..
100%, it is so obvious that most people overlook it. And the bad actors sow confusion, too, to get the debate into directions where they know they have the upper hand and can confuse and gaslight the people. But the simple fact you wrote down is all one needs to know in the end.
It would be naive to assume that athletes(not only in cycling) are not using EPO. Labs producing EPOs are way ahead of doping control agencies.
good video and some excellent comments here.
Thumb up for naming Iban Mayo. Hero of my childhood
History of doping in cycling goes far more back. It was ever present with different methods depending on the era. Amphetamins, anabolica, glucosteroids etc pp. Unfortunately it is done today and will be done in the future. There does not seem to be a solution. The good thing is, it is much safer nowadays. No pro dies in a race anymore from doping like they used to do.
Yes. First doping substances were stimulants. Mostly adopted from military service after 2nd World War: bezedrine, pervitin, amphetamine etc. Usually mixed with painkillers of various types. Then anabolic steroids came into play eg ruclips.net/video/nUgOeBJs-yU/видео.html. Later blood doping (bags infusions). It was a game changer in endurance sports but not comfortable. After advent of EPO it was easier to improve oxygen transport but still old school bags were used. Currently there is 5th generation of EPO called CERA. Much more convenient for micro dosing. But other extremely powerfull enhancing drugs exists like Triamcynolone (used by David Millar or Bradley Wiggins) and some already abandoned stimulants (from Russian military service) like Bromantane Having also masking capabilities. Also there is still room for genetic doping and artificial oxygen carriers. We will be last to know ;-)
Great video.. Is there evidence that microdosing EPO enhances performance? I was under the impression molecules from infusion bags could be detected? Is that incorrect?
There are studies claiming EPO microdosing doesn't affect performance much but much depends on probe size. You may have one "super-responder" to EPO among 10 examined athletes. What was not mentioned in the movie microdosing and blood plasma injections can be used not to directly improve performance but to mask the "delta" between mature and fresh blood cells after infusion so the off-score won't signal abnormality in ABP. This is masking technique applied after autologous blood infusion. Complicated but possible.
@Stuart Dryer Actually it has been demonstrated in 2015 by a French Team. ruclips.net/video/S-fEZlNwh_U/видео.html For 29 days, journalist Pierre-Etienne Léonard followed the daily life of eight champions who accepted in the greatest secrecy to participate in this protocol carried out in an independent laboratory and developed by doctor Pierre Sallet who works in the fight against doping. A report by Pierre-Etienne Léonard for Stade 2. This has been broadcasted by France 2 French equivalent of the BBC
How many people are here after vinegarrd s performance
Don't forget about the rest of Jumbo Visma team. Five stages won. No signs of weakness during whole tour. Neverending freshness...
@@slawomirkorbas yes the whole team of course it’s probably 95% chance
Good video.
Bit fast this year's tour, eyh?
Not really fun to watch.
gawd, i would love to know what theyre doing Now.
what kind of sauce theyre on for recovery.
what kind of special chambers they sleep in.
what kind of hormones they use so that they dont feel pain on a climb or sprint.
what kind of nano bots do they inject themselves with to repair torn muscles and bronchial damage.
I doped using 2 x. 7ml shots of test per week. 8 weeks on 8 weeks off. In combination with hard work and diet.. What a crazy difference. And That was just one drug and tiny amount. My testosterone levels read high normal by my local GP and within parameters of the rules so I still raced.
Please give your mg dose, not just ml.
Any side effects?
Hi! Thx so much for explaining, what is frustrating to see 8a that everybody buys in and accepts that the current performances outplay the doping high times performances
Great video
very good insight
Great video, I'm surprised that we don't see more of this type of video on RUclips.
Chris Cooper is a friend of my step mother's I've read his book & I've been into cycling from the late 80's.
Why people prefer to believe in the myth of clean spot always confuses me 🤔
Thank you. I think Chris Cooper book "Run, swim, throw, cheat" is one of the top positions to read regarding sport. The mystery connected with cycling is something that gravitates me to the topic. Doping concerns so many disciplines today (not only sport). There is always room for speculations and theories... What I want to emphasize is that athletes are at the very end of the process. Sometimes they don't have a choice...
@@RoadBikersPoznan So true, I'm always irritated by the hypocrisy of fan's that will hate on a Valverde or a Vino because they got popped & yet they support other riders that were obviously doped but never caught.
I'm still a fan of Pantani, EPO couldn't stop him dropping minutes in the TT... just like EPO couldn't turn David Millar into a mountain goat.
I find it easy to enjoy road cycling with or without the intrigue of doping.
Traditionally cycling is more honest than most other sports but takes a lot of flack. Athletics, Swimming, Tennis are all doped same as cycling.
It's the first time I've seen someone quote Chris, it' was funny to me I remember him coming round for dinner when I was a kid!
@@JimiPresha I agree with you - mostly. The year before Pantani won the tour he finished somewhere in the 120's in the first tt. The next year, when he won, I think he finished 12th. I don't have the time to do the homework here but I think those numbers are pretty accurate.
@@isitrachelorj3953 He would have been doped for both those TT's the difference being you only go full gas if you are up there in G.C., especially as a climber
@@isitrachelorj3953 The grand tours are beautiful when there is not much advantage from one guy.
I loved this year's TDF. Pantanis years were amazing. Lance's hmmm not much, just 3-4 of those years
Gonna love the cycling is clean. And here comes the KEKW MEME 🤣
There have been zero positive in the pro tour for the last two years… the uci has been very effective at suppressing doping in cycling! De ja vu!😉
Good piece of work
Thank you. There is still lot to cover on the subject of doping. I recommend book "Run, swim, throw cheat" by Chris Cooper. Maybe will elaborate on this more in the future.
CAUTION THIS VIDEO PRESENTS RESULTS IN A WAY THAT IS HIGHLY BIASED.
Claim: "According to anonymous riders interviewed by the latest CIRC report doping might still concern 90 % of riders"
Latest CIRC-report (from 2015!):
"One respected cycling professional felt that even today, 90% of the peloton was doping, although he thought that there was little orchestrated team doping in the manner that teams had previously employed. Another put it at around 20%. Many people simply stated they “didn’t know” who was clean and who was not. A lot of these discrepancies may be caused by the definition of doping being used by individuals (see above)."
Full section - 1.4.3. What is the situation in respect of doping in cycling today?:
It is clear from the analysis above, that doping practices have changed over time as riders
have adapted to new anti-doping tests and new and better doping techniques were
discovered. Today the situation in cycling is likely still changing, and, certainly, it has
become more opaque as riders have now been forced to dope “underground”. A common
response to the Commission, when asked about teams, was that probably 3 or 4 were
clean, 3 or 4 were doping, and the rest were a “don’t know”. A number of top riders, and
others in the sport, discussed other rider’s top performances, or changes in appearance
due to dramatic weight loss, and were unable to explain how they were achieved.
One respected cycling professional felt that even today, 90% of the peloton was doping,
although he thought that there was little orchestrated team doping in the manner that
teams had previously employed. Another put it at around 20%. Many people simply
stated they “didn’t know” who was clean and who was not. A lot of these discrepancies
may be caused by the definition of doping being used by individuals (see above).
The ABP was a paradigm shift in anti-doping and began to reduce the percentage
performance gain that EPO had previously offered because riders had to take smaller
quantities to avoid detection. This in turn gave clean riders the chance to compete and
win, particularly in shorter stages in the Grand Tours. Gradually, 10-15% gains have
become a thing of the past. It has been reported that increases in performance by microdosing EPO (as one form of continued doping) are now perhaps between 3-5%. This has
had a significant impact on the doping landscape today because by reducing the
performance gains, riders will start to believe that they can have a career riding clean.
This is a key development in the fight against doping.
However, the Astana case in 2014 is an example that shows the problem has not been
eradicated at the higher levels. The Astana world tour and pro-continental teams
collectively incurred five doping violations in 2014, two by the world tour team (EPO)
and three by the pro-continental team (steroids).
Finally, it should be noted that the ability of NADOs and laboratories around the world,
as well as the substances that are routinely tested for, differ considerably and that most
riders know exactly what the weak spots in the various countries are and are able to
adapt and/or take advantage of this lack of a level playing field.
If you prevent athletes from access to the test data, what’s to stop them from doing their own set of data by drawing more immediately before or after the sample they submit?
Probably it won't stop them from doing this. Moreover, as far as I remember there was already a case where one team bought the same labolatory equipment like anti-doping testers used so they were able to mimic/copy data collection from samples. But still this could be yet another obstacle. Potential workaround would require the assistance of medical specialist familiar with various biomarkers etc. It is the same like with replicating banknotes - the more complex it is the less people try it.
The UCI almost never catch anyone.. it seems like the only time anyone gets nabbed is when the police have an investigation on a Dr ..
it’s not in UCIs best interests to ban big named riders, that’s bad for business.
Exactly, the Spanish police force still stands toll as the most effective anti-doping organisation. WADA and it's national orgs. are fool's gold.
True there is more than a little ‘fox in charge of the henhouse’ there. And indeed in other sports vying for precious public attention.
awsome video. always wondere how exaclty it is done.
Until I see guys doing 5.7 watts a kilogram up climbs like Lemond and Hinault in 86 (who easily couldve been on amphetamines etc.), they're for sure doping. Superhuman performance is superhuman. Not saying they're bad people. These guys put their whole life into a sport just to realize one day, as a super young adult, that doping is what it takes to be anything more than a bottle fetcher. They get doctors who specialize in doping athletes and probably feel its more or less safe and it a responsibility to the team since everyone is doing it. Cant blame them. If anything, they're exploited. They get punished and scapegoated. They don't make shit and take all the risk. They're lab rats and billboards at the same time.
Even completely clean they would easily stay above 6 w/kg, because everything from training to nutrition has been completely changed. With the knowledge we have nowadays it’s obvious that the training methods back in the 80’s were absolutely not getting the most out of those riders. Also they used amphetamine and other doping back then, so the 5,8watts is already flawed.
Point is, teleport 1986 Hinault to 2022 and train him with modern scientific knowledge, he’ll end up improving his 86 performance by a lot
@@pjetrs Our knowledge of pharmaceuticals have changed. 10 to 20% is what epo/blood bags give you. Amstrong did 6.97 watts per KG up Alp Duez. Thats like 18% more than Lemond/Henault and Amstrong got more gains than most through EPO due to being on the lower end of the average hematocrit range (red blood cell count). I wouldn't be shocked if Greg and Hinault took amphetamines or testosterone, but they definitely didn't take EPO in 86. 89/90 with Lemond and the top 10 riders is more interesting though but still nowhere near 2005 or 2006.Today, they can only take EPO at certain times because of drug testing. Certain drugs cant be taken like they used to be, so riders fall somewhere in between the Pharmstrong era and the 80's.
@@pjetrs That kind of naivite and wishful thinking will bring a lot of pain in your life, my sweet sweet summer child.
Well, about the climbing records, records are to be destroyed. With better bikes, better nutrition and better training system; i think that alone would be enough to challenge some of the climbing records of the EPO era (and even surpass some of them), even without doping.
It is not "apple to apple" comparison as start and finish lines were changing a bit through TDF editions on the Hautacam climb. But still "mutant performance" of much heavier Bjarne Riis from 1996 beats what we have seen two days ago from Vingegaard. It is EPO effect.
@@RoadBikersPoznan 1996 was flat before , WvA performance was mutant
Look, kid, the power of doping is WAY BEYOND your comprehension. Let's take Testosteron for example:
I know that you did not know that a person who doesn't pick up any weight in a period of time and ONLY injects Testosteron will see larger gains in muscle growth, strength and overall performance than a person who trains systematically for the same period of time but WITHOUT any perfomance enhancing substance.
In other words: I will see larger overall gains sitting on a couch and only injecting testosteron than someone doing everything correctly training wise but not doping at all.
👋🏼🎤
Jumbo-juice is very effective.
Todays riders. They have a crash which somehow ends in broken bones. They have some amazing operation and somehow with the recovery process happens in under three weeks (record time), they also come back immediately as the fastest cyclist in the peloton .
Lapartient has pretty much literally said he knows about microdosing EPO. Hence, they tested Pogacar 3 times in 1 day in the last Tour. Which is totally pointless, as the bio-identical low dose EPO won't show up and the ratios of mature and new red blood cells don't dip and peak that quickly. A red blood cell "lives" at least 4 months.
They can test them 100 times theyve doped them for their biological passport tests when they 1st went.
They came in with 50 hematicrits
And T levels of a bulgarian weightlifter.
Boyish no muscles kids with T levels of a bouncer and red blood cell levels of a Tibetan Sherpa.
While other existing pros were already known and they have to race on low octane levels locked in by lower biopassport levels . Done years ago.
Having a whole bunch of under 23 riders suddenly destroying the best innthe world is not possible statistically
@@glywnniswells9480 wtf are you talking about? there is only one rider under 23 rider beating the older cats and that’s pogacar. Besides him the peloton is still dominated by guys 25 and up like alaphillipe ,roglic , wout VA , soni colbreli , fillipo ganna ectt...
I thought the pharmaceutical companies did away with the bio-identical epo in the late 2000’s…like around 2008. I think it was Dynepo that was all the rage for a couple years because it was bio-identical..produced from a human cell line and for a short time, was undetectable. I don’t think they make it anymore.
@@abone2pick Pogacar, Evenepoel and Egan Bernal are all examples (Bernal won the TdF in 2019 as the youngest winner ever).
@@abone2pick pidcock viingegaard
It will always be a challenge to keep up with them. Unfortunately it makes cycling look bad when they are doing more than most sports. Think people aren’t cheating in hockey, baseball, football…..poor testing in season with little penalties and no out of season testing? I’m sure it’s rampant everywhere else.
There is direct, clear benefit of using PEDs in endurance sports. Even taking painkillers and ephedrine may result in marginally better time in eg TT ride. At the highest level it may convert to 1st place instead of 2nd place. In team sports (eg basketball) with doping you can make the team running faster but you can't make them shooting like Steph Curry. So there is different convertion rate and more objective factors involved. In cycling where everything is measured the temptation of using PEDs is higher. Even in amateur cycling it happens...
@@RoadBikersPoznan sure many other sports request more sports specific skills than cycling. Take hockey for example not only will ped’s help get you on a team making millions a year they will help you recover from injuries and extend a career that again pays millions per year. I believe even at the lower levels they are using ped’s to get ahead and get on the paying teams. Without testing and the rewards even greater than cycling there is absolutely cheating in all major sports.
@@RoadBikersPoznan Maybe, but considering a game like football/soccer where we see last minute winners etc, PEDs might make you stronger in the last 10 minutes, sure they might not make you shot better at the start of a game, but they might stop you falling away as it progresses?
@@williambrazil3760 agree there is always some benefit even in "ball" sports. But again it has to be weighted against other, potentially easier to achieve improvements in the areas like tactics, team consistency etc. Anyway at the highest level steroids are used in team sports although may not be a game changer. It is clear when you see body transitions of rookies after 2-3 seasons in football or basketball.
except every pro trained really hard and they all are within a pocket of skill very tiny, so in the end, maybe it's the guy with more physique/endurance that gets taken instead of the other one that didn't dope@@RoadBikersPoznan
makes me doubt about pogacar's superman performance at the previous tdf itt ..
I believe serious doping is still in play, it's certainly never going to stop, never.
Well his power output numbers were off the charts/superhuman. He's definitely doing something. He won stages where he didn't even look in distress looked like he was on a casual coffee ride. He also looked like he intentionally slowed on one stage because he'd won the previous day grueling stage and looked like he was just cruising. Fans just have blinders on and don't want to accept the truth.
@@jjmoto65 he intentionally left his bike computer on that crucial climb where he switched to his rimbrake bike .. obviously to hide his power matrix .. lol !!
Great video. I'm at the point with endurance sports that I think if they really wanted to clean it up, it has to be zero tollerance. I mean ZERO. If they want to say well you can have x mg of caffeine, then fine, but if you have x+1, nope, sorry. Took ibuprofin that day? Nope. Prednizone for poison ivy? Nope. People will all say they have poison ivy and be on steroids. Need an inhaler for asthma? Nope, sorry, you don't get to grow up and be a professional bike racer, it's life. I'm not 350 pounds and can't bench 500 pounds, so I don't get to be a powerlifter and I don't think it's okay to give me a pass to take steroids for some made up issue, just so I can find a way around the system. So, zero tollerance. If they want to have a "anything goes" asterisk next to races, that's totally fine if people want to race that way. But for the clean side, it just has to be zero tollerance.
Yes, I agree and especially on the asthma and inhaler/puffer-overdose fiasco.
Either a substance is banned or it isn't. Forget this TUE nonsense for saddle sores or other ailments to bypass the rules. As a professional sportsman, they shouldn't be allowed to use a "sick note" from their doctor ...acting like a kid trying to bunk off a P.E. lesson!
And unfortunately with the amount of money at stake in all sport your aspirations are completely unrealistic
I agree in principle, but disagree on the asthma point, I don't think the evidence is there that inhalers taken for mild asthma provide performance boosts (aside from returning asthma sufferers to baseline)?
@@ollie3x10_8 I think with asthma, you get a free pass for certain substances not only the inhaler itself
@@dirktolboom4060 I think only biomarkers that result from the treatment (the inhaler), and only at the levels produced by the treatment. So no worse than all the other issues highlighted in the video.
I’d be interesting to learn how they were doping back in the days of Coppi and later Mercyx.
Back in the 50's/60's doping was mostly based on stimulants(adopted mainly from military service) and painkillers. There were confirmed cases when above specifics were also mixed with alcohol... When it comes to stimulants everything what was already proven in the battlefield during WW2 like pervitin or bezedrine (kinds of amphetamine) become extremely useful in endurance sports like cycling. Usually cyclists were aware of various substances in their bottles but they had limited knowledge what it was. In the 60s first confirmed cases of using anabolic steroids were documented on both sides of the Iron Curtain. It is just long story short bu agree it is worth covering in separate movie. Thank you for the suggestion.
Biology fact: it takes decades to develop endurance of the cardiovascular system. They are simply too young to pull out such a performance.
No.
Thats why power meters are crucial in this day and age. Gotta stay under 6.00~ watts per kilo or we will know!
It's the same doping strategy when Armstrong was doing it. However, The training has advanced. The guys are thinner, Nutrition is a bigger part of it. There is way more data the rider can see and test their fitness. More to it then EPO.
This is exactly the same rationale/justification that Lance used. Almost word for word. But we’re smarter now, right? We should be. We know that one rider can’t - or shouldn’t be able to - simply ride away from the best riders in the world like Lance did, for example on the stage to Sestriere. Been there. Done that. It’s not possible. No matter what you eat or how you train.
@@JamieSmith-fz2mz The sport of cycling has evolved. You are talking about pro athletes gaining 1 percent aerobic advantage. That's way different then an avid cyclist going for a ride.
@@dadoorsron And I'm not buying it at the pro level. I've been in the sport long enough to know what's realistic.
@@JamieSmith-fz2mz not buying what?
Pretty accurate. And not mentioning the use of cetones... All this micro doping methods added one to another for sure result in significant gain
Exogenous ketones have been proved to do absolute fuck all. Most likely introduced to deflect attention from the real shit that is going on behind the closed door. There's a good podcast on the Inside Exercise channel with an expert in the field of fat metabolism talking about this subject.
The thing completely missing from this video are metabolic modulators.. i.e. not oxygen/blood vector based at all.. most of which are not even banned so can use with impunity…
I also wonder if CRISPR had been employed yet
What are those ? Links?
Just a question so what exactly are you trying to communicate in this video? If a rider doesn't test positive they are clean. Unless the uci will actually take doping seriously it will never stop. Ask most sponsors they are happy to have their products promoted it's only when they find out it's not just cornflakes and water that wins endurance events.
I don't believe cycling is clean, but it is a lot cleaner than it was just 10-15 years ago.
Teams still use performance enhancing substances, but usually those that are not black listed (yet), like creatine.
Recently Victorious Bahrain team was proven to use Zanaflex. This is just relaxation drug but it may be just a tip of drug pyramid.
EPO doping is very much yesteryear's technology and almost a thing of the past. Does no-one notice how lean the current day bike rider is compared to any rider in the past?! Today we see nutritional "doping" and chasing the leanest possible and favorable watt/kilo ratio. The only reason why current day riders are equaling climbing times of the past is not because they are focussing on power like they used to. That limit already was exceeded in the 90's. But shaving off weight makes all the difference uphill and intervals. It's no secret either, sadly, ketones are widespread. I'm afraid they are crossing the line with experimental diabetic drugs. You should look into that direction. Thanks for this nostalgia!
Thank you for comment. However shaving grams to the bone was possible decades ago. Clenbuterol, cortisone plus intermittent fasting could do the job well. I read about eg. Tyler Hamilton in his book Secret Race... In 2004 he was so anorectic that he felt pain while sitting on wooden chair - 0% fat ass. On the other hand if you look at Tadej Pogacar who won TDF twice you will notice how "bulky" he is in comparison to typical climbers but his savage power compensate any redundant mass. Losing weight is not a game changer but I agree there is huge progress in nutritioning like using keto drinks etc. I am more worried about substances impossible to trace like artificial oxygen carries. Also there is something going on behind the curtain as recently riders of Victorious Bahrain were proven to use Tizanidine(Zanaflex). Although the drug helps to relax muscles it could be used in conjuction with something else and unknown...
@@RoadBikersPoznan True. Perhaps I’m older than you are, I’m talking about the 90’s (and earlier). They carried more weight and mussels (growth hormones). But hey, that’s a thing of the past…
There is a test for a blood bag plastic compound, but it's not used, and athletes have made excuses about other sources for their high levels.
I highly recommend listening to this video on 1.25x speed.
True of 90% of videos on RUclips.
Thanks man
Lol, otherwise it’s unwatchable
It is basic common sense logic that dictates: if there is a performance benefit that is substantial enough from doping and it can be used without getting caught, then practically all the winners must be using because the biological differences among the very top are so minute. If for example worlds top 5 are 3% different in some performance metric but doping gives 5% advantage, it's obvious that only way one can win is by using that doping. (the % are not meant to be realistic, but to simply make a point).
How do they do it?
Mitochondria can be genetically altered to have them feed off fat-based ketones, leading to much smaller, ketone-based rations capable of maintaining an athlete's peak performance for days at a time. Altered Mitochondria can better utilise ketones in order to rapidly restore ATP when cells deplete to ADP and AMP states during sustained intense exercise. Not a climber or a sprinter? No worries! It's possible to trigger changes to core cellular structures (aka "legal gene doping") by modifying fast/slow twitch fibre ratios. It's even possible to increase natural EPO production. Read Iñigo San Millán's literature, it explains it all in theory.
Extras:
Stem cell therapy.
Muscle relaxants.
Massage.
Ice baths.
IV nutrient/hydration drips.
Cutting edge supplements.
All of the aforementioned is "legal" and produces performances in excess of the Lance effect. Science has progressed significantly since the EPO days.
P.S. People don't want to believe that their champions are doping and cycling IS too big to fail.
P.P.S. Scientists are also hunting genetic freaks so that they already start with a performance monster. Then it's a case of getting their numbers up as high as possible naturally and then using new scientific techniques to further improve and then maintain those numbers. The "10,000 hour athlete" model is out the window. It's quite reminiscent of horse and greyhound racing only the animals happen to be cyclists.
It is okay to discuss doping, but why is it always cycling that has to be discussed, while the amount of doping used in swimming, baithlon, cross country, nordic combination, weightlifting, athletics and many other sports is far higher ?
It sounds like everyone or almost everyone is still doping today but that the level of doping is less than it was in the past. It may be the case that we might be about as good as we can reasonably get and if it is and if the level of doping is indeed less then maybe that's acceptable. Lord knows the damage done to the body during the TDF is substantial and perhaps the lessor doping we see today might actually reduce the damage. OTH, if they are still doing major climbs as fast or faster than during Armstrongs era then maybe there is something else going around that has yet to be captured by the profiles.
Certainly bike tech has made them faster since the Armstrong era. Bikes are lighter and stiffer. Tires are faster. Even more impactful than that is the data and science behind the data they can get now. Not saying all cyclist are clean, just there are other factors as well.
@@alicenchainrings1326 There is a weight limit that prevent the makers from making them any lighter so I doubt weight is a big difference or even a small difference between Armstrong's era and today. I'd bet that conditioning and training have improved with new tech, uncommon during Lance's time, like power meters on all bikes all the time. And yeah, an evolution in the doping regimens.
I’d say doping is provably less effective today - W/kg has been way down since the EPO heydays
I didn't understand how you could use blood doping and this cannot be detected (your hematocrit will raise significantly like many riders (e.g. nickname mr.60%, pantani and s.o.)?
And also this year tdf 2022 was very strange about performence of many riders in the peloton or domestique riders (who have never shown such skills to break down peloton on mauntain stages :D).
Autologous blood doping is still doable although requires some masking techniques. But the question is whether "authorities" want to detect it... The history shows us that silence is sometimes better for various sport organizations from the marketing perspective. All endurance disciplines where athletes balance on the edge of human performance requires some kind of extraordinary supplementation. Revealing some cases but keep in secret others is part of this business.
My question is why are youngsters (very early 20's) dominating today?
This is the question that many ask as it was never like this. If you look at other disciplines you may find a trend of putting more responsibility to younger athletes - whenever it is individual or team sport. I think in the past teams were afraid of building so called "franchise" around youngsters. But when you compare cycling to other endurance sports like marathons you will find older winners there... The pessimistic scenario may be that young athletes in cycling are subjects of early doping programmers so base variables of their ABPs are "upgraded" from the very beginning. Therefore the reference body profile doesn't differ much from a bit doped body profile and ABPs adaptive model doesn't trigger abnormality. For instance high hemoglobin levels registered early may be considered as natural gift.
@@RoadBikersPoznan -- early doping programmers -- it appears your saying a pre-twenties kid is approached or with'n a team recommended to start a program of some sort so that to move to the "upgraded" level right before entering world tour status? In doing so they'll appear to be a super naturally gifted prodigy through out there entire Pro career and.. eh hm.. win a TDF on their first try.
Besides pogacar how many riders under 25 are actually Winning grand tours or one day monuments?
Not that many but significant trophies. It is early trend but you will see more an more youngsters in upcoming ears.
Egan Bernal 1st GC TDF 19' (age 22)
Egan Bernal 1st GC Giro 21' (age 24)
Tadej Pogacar 1st GC TDF 20' (age 22)
Tadej Pogacar 1st GC TDF 21' (age 23)
Jonas Vingegaard 2nd GC TDF 21' (at age 24)
Marc Hirschi 2nd Liege-Bastogne-Liege (at age 23)
Eric Mas 2nd Vuelta (at age 25)
Tom Pidcock Tokyo Gold CX (age 22)
Have to say I have stopped watching professional cycling - too many 'amazing.', 'incredible', 'unbelievable' performances - sad for those trying to win 'clean'
I want to know what peoples’ opinions on EF Pro Cycling’s anti doping stance, and whether their athletes are drug free. I’m not sure myself, what does everyone else think?
They are on juice!
One thing I have learned in life which applies universally…follow the money…athletes dope, teams know this, UCI knows this…they are all making money…the story line is Lance doped like crazy while others worked hard…truth is Lance doped and worked harder and others doped as much or more but worked less…but most people don’t like the truth and follow the common narrative
He also doped better or smarter.
well said...most cyclist at that time were also doping like Armstrong, but he worked his ass off more than the rest...Lance still one of the greatest IMHO.
he also organized and controlled the doping for his team better than the others, it was more systematic
@@viveviveka2651not true. Drugs affect people differently. They helped Armstrong more than most cyclists.
Armstrong never was that good. Never had a great vo2 max. Never had numbers even close to Lemond or vaughters or Landis.
A few years ago, the laboratory of Chatenay-Malabry announced that he can detect EPO microdoses.
Not true. They can, if test w i 6 hrs of microdose, otherwise no
Should we just have two competitions? For example the natural Olympics are great but how good would the mega roid Olympics be? How much can a roided to the max athlete with no neck lift? How fast can someone who doped to the eyeballs actually climb that mountain?
Shows me i can be proud of of my 270 watts power for one hour, clean😅
It is the environment and the need to sort out their future.
Cleaning up the environment is something far more difficult than chasing single dopers. There is incredible net of connections in teams. For instance Mauro Gianetti in UAE... Maybe the word "tradition" is more accurate. If you had dopers in 80s who become team directors/advisors/consultants in 90s and the same process repeats in next decades then you see how the "infection" spreads. There is no common legal basis preventing this practice. Also there are still "well-known" experts who can share their knowledge about blood manipulation to newcomers what is invisible.
You know what you are talking about, and I personally think the cyclists are the victims of a now less corrupted system
They should have modified and unmodified classes...
Its impossible to detect now that it was before, as the "transperency" increase, the technique to stay opaque increases 2 fold.
90% Harley is right . I always said , "if lance passed all those times ,then the problem is UCI".
Or the organization that did the tests.
UCI sets the rules for both WADA and teams. WADA provides testing methodology but has to stick with the rules defining when they can or cannot get samples from the rider. So the UCI is a key player in the process. Even the best anti-doping test is useless if not performed with sufficient frequency or its time is predictible.
Thank you for quoting yourself. It's such an honor to become enlightened on what you always said.
It's called controled doping. They know they can't stop it so they need to limit on how much athletes dope. UCI needs it to be at a level where they don't see headlines of their athletes die.
At the end of the day, this level of doping is good for everyone involved.
Fans gets to see a fantastic superhuman show.
Organizers has a better product.
Safer for the athletes as doing these tours without enhancements is almost suicide.
I think no level of doping is good.I thought the idea was to get rid of doping altogether, tho after listening to this video ,that is easier said than done
@@lydiagould3090 any doping is bad but to fully eradicate even the slightest ped is exponentially difficult
As a fan, I think you're wrong. the superhuman performances are not why I watch it and it is relative to the other riders as well. I don't really care how long it takes them to ride up a mountain, I want to see the differences between the athletes.
for organizateurs,uci to make money and make cycling more entertaining for fans........much shorter stages/1 day races thru entire season
just look at women's cycling,women ride half of men's lenght often,women races are more chaotic and more attacks because of shorter lenght
majority of stages for any tour have around 150-180kms,cut them to 80-100kms(every stage will look like a classic)
that's how upsets can happen,every favourite in a tour of 3 weeks will have problems in keeping a high pace every single stage if every stage has high speed like in a classic
every rider will have tough time to get back in peleton if they fall or have a bike problem
majority of 1 day races are around 200-250kms,cut them to 130-150kms
why any stage(that isn't a tt) needs to last between 4-6 hours when it's much better to last 2-3 hours,sport channels can squeze more easily cycling race/stages in their programs
even if sport channels can't give 2-3 hours of that stage but they can give often 1-1,5 hour
if stages last 2-3 hours riders won't need feeding zones,rarely pee brakes,riders will be more focused
riders staying only 2-3 hours in a very hot or bad weather it's better then staying 4-6 hours
cutting the lenght by 50-40% in every race it's gonna be benefic from more points of view
yes higher average speed can make more uglier falls but riders fall even speed isn't high...road gets narrow or a rider literally is bored and not paying attention
also doping is good for uci but it makes the races faster, the sensationalism better
Makes me think of LA and his case. He was destroyed by WADA and the French over doping when likely 80% of the field were also doping in one way or the other. He just got singled out cause the French hated him.
And he was a huge prick to be fair. There's a reason Indurain is basically ignored.
He was , in his own words, a "douchebag" in his personal behavior which made it easy for everyone to scapegoat him.
He got singled out because he was nasty and arrogant and destroyed people.
False.
B c he was arrogant and bullied people. Usada convicted, no French agency ever did
In terms of the speed. Bike tech has came a long way. Rolling resistance and aero advantages could account for the speed increase 2003 to now. I have not looked into the weather conditions but they would play a big part too. Not to say that doping doesn’t happen.
Exactly, I've long been convinced that Climate change was a serious problem!
Definitely true, I have two road bikes and one is consistently 2 mph faster. Friends who have ridden it have been blown away by the speed of it.
Watching the Tour de France at the moment, my hubby and I commented on how baby faced and young the 2 top riders in the GC look - Pogacar and the Danish yellow jersey - they look like teenagers. If they are doping, will it catch up with them one day, or have they discovered the secret to looking younger for longer?
Jonas have a big heart and lungs, he is not doping. If you know how he is he could never dope. He would just go back go work in the harbor again.
U re kidding right?
@@heavyflamerheresy2581 good joke
@@heavyflamerheresy2581 😂😂😂
I’ve always been convinced that drug cheats are present in many other Sports. It would be interesting to know how other Sporting Bodies deal with this problem.
They don’t test as much. The UCI has taught all sports bodies a lesson. Don’t test, you won’t catch the dopers and you won’t have a reputation for doping.
The size of linemen in the NFL has increased spectacularly since the 1980s. A 300 lb lineman used to be rare, but now all of them are over 300 lbs and most can run the 40 around 5 seconds. That isn't natural.
I think that if the NFL tested like cycling does, the league would be shut down immediately after they all tested positive, and all of the alternates they try to hire do too. They just let them do it.
In combat sports like boxing and MMA, almost all of the top fighters are doping and getting away with it. They have fooled fans into thinking the drug testing is infallible when it’s a complete joke and that’s just when they do actually test fighters because most of the time they don’t.
Football (soccer) is filled with “asthmatics” now because it allows them exemption for drugs that feed more oxygen to their bloodstream so they can continue running non stop. This is also the case in cycling. At Liverpool like 75% of their team had an exemption for asthma medication when they were winning the champions league. These are supposedly the top athletes of the most popular sport in the world and the majority of them are asthmatic? Certainly nothing fishy going on there.
I think combat sports are the most egregious ones though. They are cheating while handing out life changing injuries and brain damage to people.
@@lkb3rdtrue lmao
Next topic bogus medical conditions eg exercise induced asthma or for that matter asthma diagnosis and the benefits and advantages of those medications can give.
@Geoffrey McCann Asthma is an interesting one. I used to suffer from an exercise-induced Asthmatic condition. The triggers were bike racing and training and cold weather. I had to take two puffs of Ventolin before going out on my bike and I'd be ok though I was often a bit wheezy at the end of a race. Unfortunately it developed into full blown late onset asthma. Now I'm on a daily preventative inhaler and I don't need Ventolin and haven't had an attack in nearly 5 years. The thing is that Ventolin is a reliever. It opens up constricted airways and allows the sufferer to breathe normally. So if you don't have asthma and use Ventolin, it will have no effect as the airways are fully open. That said, I wondered about the amount of Ventolin Chris Froome used that time he was in the news. I think it was about 10 times the amount I needed. That would suggest very badly controlled asthma to me. In which case, why would he even be using Ventolin? I think though that he was taking an injection and I don't know enough about taking a large volume of the drug to offer an observation there. When my condition exacerbated, Ventolin simply had no effect even after 3 times my usual dose and I ended up in A&E. Scary.
@@bahoonies if asthma a legitimate condition you need all the help that you can get, but no one talks about the benefits of salbutamol and weight loss and maintaining muscle it can be used the same way as clenbuteral which fits nicely into the watts per kg. Garmin didn't renew a contract with Chris Froome he almost lost a contract with Sky next thing his skinny as and winning biike races??? Then you can throw into the potential benefits of high doss prednisone the list and ways of doping are endless. Cycling cops a bad rap but it's in every sport at every level.
@@geoffreymccann2841 I can only comment on salbutamol in relation to the treatment of asthma. I don't know anything else about it. I know nothing about the other two drugs you mention. So again I can't comment. Regarding Froome, he didn't ride for Garmin. Why did he almost lose a contract with Sky? I ask this because I first saw him when he was a domestique at Sky. Are you saying he used drugs to lose weight? Certainly cycling gets a bad rap where drug taking is concerned but a person would need to be very naive if they considered any sport drug free.
@@bahoonies sorry I got him mixed up with someone else with garmin. There's only been 1 grand tour winner since 2010 to say that everyone is using something to gain an advantage he hasn't lost that win either. Most riders that have won grand tours except for Pogacar can be linked to a team or doctor or test result that raises questions. Pogacar is only young but everyone seems to be after him.
@@geoffreymccann2841 To be honest, I am concerned at the number of very young riders at World Tour level who are producing the sort of performances I would have expected from older seasoned professionals. Have training methods suddenly changed? Are they riders with astonishing physical capabilities who are eclipsing the old guard? Or is there something else going on? If they are naturally gifted, my concern is that their career will be bright but short. If it turns out that drugs are involved, I think it would do terrible damage to professional cycling. I hope it's not the case.
Do you think Chris Froome injuries are bad luck? Glucorticoids over use result in bone descalcification, Nairo is 31 years old and looks older than Valverde, and it is very difficult understand perfomances like Primoz who was a ski jumper 6 years ago and Tadej with a very infamous trainer
Follow more south Americans as their looks elder quicker and looks younger compared to Europeans
Cycling in general reduces bonestrength
Is genetic doping a concern and is it detectable?
It is not a concern. No cases recorded in cycling so far. Either because it is not practiced or cannot be detected. It is possible to augment genes in adult's body so it produces more proteins/hormones impacting performance. But I am pretty sure athletes may not want to pass such treatment. Consuming pills or even injecting drugs is somehow easier to accept...
If you want to setup proper anti doping, they need to have a mandatory clean retreat for x amount of time to develop a baseline of a rider's bio passport. Is this even possible?
Its not called doping in the Peloton its refered to as preparing for a race. Start racing a bike you will soon work it out.
Everyone should be allowed to dope and use whatever drugs they want May the best protocol win
In reality this took place in the early 90s when almost no-restricted blood doping was possible.
Between the three grand tours, classics, and monuments, there's around 1000 riders from World Tour and Continental Teams participating every year. Where are whistleblowers and why is no one with a heavy conscious talking? Surely the omerta can't be that powerful...
The entire 1990s was top fuel doping.... Even when the dirty laundry started to come out masses of fans refused to believe it. Some still don't. It is an interesting question how they kept it quiet for so long, and why did that fall apart briefly.
Es fängt schon im Amateurbereich an. Da macht man sich Gedanken, ob man ein paar mehr Watt mit Koffein schafft. Selbst im Ötztaler sind sie drauf. Ich würde gerne wissen, ob Motordoping ein Thema ist und ich würde gerne wissen, ob LA früher sowas gemacht hat.
consistent micro dosing ... Ask Jose Canseco.
I think performance based evidence (e.g climbing rates, that can be translated into W/kg specific power) may be a way out of the doping method/detection method 'arms race' circle. If we agree that certain performance levels are statistically too good to be true (i.e. non-achievable by human physique alone), then it doesn't really matter what cheating method is being used. In fact, even mechanical cheating, aka electric motors, can be detected this way.
I understand that where one draws the 'extraterrestrial performance' limit is up for debate, and there may well not be a singular answer, but I think any way of detection based on currently known methods is a losing battle in the long run, simply because there is way, way more money/fame/national pride to win in cheating than in catching the cheaters, and therefore they will always be one step ahead.
I suppose today the detection could use artificial intelligence as one indicators of doping. As an machine learning engineer I could imagine neural network "trained" with all kinds of normalized data associated with former doping cases. For inputs assuming performance, heart rate, age, power, time, weight, stress score, weather conditions it could generate approximate probability of doping. The thing is that neither your idea or this one cannot be treated as sufficient criteria. However they can support other evidence or just trigger alert for further investigation. In the past we have created seven layer neural network for one customer used for symptom based diagnosis in automotive industry. Based on various symptoms it infered proper defect types. Similar approach is doable in any domain but it requires some effort and money. Anyway the main benefit is it is totally independent from doping type.
In theory a norm can be established for each rider. But in the real world those who are doing the testing must be highly trained and diligent. At the pro level, a tester would have his/her hands full with half a dozen riders.
If we look at the last tour it was the fastest in history. Mountain stages at almost average 36 km/h speed. Vengegaard’s VAM on Col du Granon about 1740 and on Hautacam above 1700, every day very tight, hot in the mountains. It’s not the 1840 Riss did on the Hautacam, that was also the only mountain of that day. Very high performance level, ok the equipment has improved, the training can be improved, but still… I don’t think there’s a real prove though
@@albertovonberg2654 Until this year, the record-holding fastest Tour was the, yikes, 2005 edition. Not problematic at all.
@@AG-el6vt what do you mean?
Last years VAM even on long and hard climbs weren’t above 1700, like for instance Col du Portet in 21 and 18.
Stages this year were short but lead flat out from start to finish. I was impressed.
Cześć, świetny materiał, macie może to również w języku polskim? Byłoby mi łatwiej, to propagować.
Niestety nie mamy