The Last of Us Part 2: Neil Druckmann, Halley Gross Interview - A Podcast Beyond! Special Episode
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- Опубликовано: 24 авг 2024
- On a special episode of IGN's PlayStation show, Podcast Beyond!, Jonathon Dornbush and Lucy O'Brien are joined by director Neil Druckmann and narrative lead Halley Gross for a SPOILER-FILLED talk about The Last of Us Part 2.
Druckmann and Gross dive into the plot, characters, and themes of the Naughty Dog sequel, indulging Jonathon and Lucy in their many questions about character motivations, scrapped ideas for the sequel, and how Ellie, Joel, and Abby's journeys developed throughout production.
Seriously, this conversation is full of spoilers, only watch if you've played through The Last of Us 2, or don't mind having the story spoiled for you. (Also, warning, this episode does contain some cursing.)
My favorite moment was when Owen said that he was tired of fighting for a city he didn't give a shit about. That showed me Abby and Owen's humanity.
Owen and Jesse were underatted characters
It showed Owen's humanity...
Owen and Jessie definitely come through as the most humane in an inhumane world. No one is innocent, including Owen and Jessie.
Yeah i liked Owen as well cool character
Yes, everyone in the story is very human, which was very surprisig to see as I thought ellie and joel and tommy were human as well but turns out they were all pieces of shit all this time! Masterful storytelling by mr drickman
I think the snowball fight was one of the most clever ways to teach a game mechanic, period.
It reminded me of Half-Life 2, where they teach you to use the gravity gun by playing fetch with a robot dog
Yes the unique and clever game mechanic of pressing the r2 button. Surely no on would have thought that was how you shoot...
Honestly when dina says "wanna fuck em up" i thought it was cute and reminded me of throwing bricks at the cars in the first games DLC
"Fucking Brick Master!"
Lol
These cute moments all build up like the birthday present (and there are so many beautiful heart warming interactions there like Ellie pretending to be a dinosaur and calling Joel and dinosaur lol. The amount of times i cried tears of happiness in this game was amazing.
Seriously, nobody even mentions Shimmer after she takes one to the dome. The disrespect.
How can you be so soft? Damn. Please cry about the dead rabbit next. This is an apocalypse world, you're playing the wrong game dude.
@@GG-mk4kc You watch your damn mouth about that bunny. I'm only just now getting over it.
@@GG-mk4kc If you look out of the window of Ellie's house at the start of the game, you can see a rabbit which quickly hops away - I'm convinced this is the descendant of the bunny we killed in the first game, come back to exact revenge. Pretty sure future DLC will show how that rabbit orchestrated the events of the entire game.
Well If the guy didn't kill Shimmer right away, Then the horse will suffer to Death because of the injuries...
@@GrimJackal There's also one outside Joel's house eating some of the flowers as you walk up the steps. Consuming the delicious grief it had wrought upon the town of Jackson.
I think something that contributed to Abby is the simple fact of having to survive as her in this world. Having to kill all these monsters and cultists really puts you in the shoes of a character and makes you more susceptible to understanding them. At least it was the case for me.
I felt very differently, it was really hard for me to build any empathy for Abby because by the time you switch as her you just want to go back to the cliffhanger and continue playing as Ellie
Huh?
Tretch that’s only the case for the first playthrough though. I also wanted to know what happened (even though I knew the basic jist of it from watching leaked content before release), so it just felt like a temporary break from the main story. I thought it was just the right amout of tim, basically another game within the game, and by day 3 when Abby finds her friends corpses I was like “oh shit I apmost forgot about this, here we go”.
And after first playthrough you already know what happens so it doesn’t really feel like a drag and you can even chapter select to skip Abby’s parts if you can’t stand it
TheKillaShow what?
After all that surviving I can imagine one blaming mad heavily unto Joel who diminished any possibility of a cure.
I'm still waiting for someone to mention how on-point it was hearing Ice Cube's "It Was A Good Day" leading up to Nora's death.
That part caught me so off guard😂😂
I actually waited a bit during that part so I could hear the rest of the song. I ended up timing it just right so the song ended right as the dialogue started.
"You're my people."
I loved that line too. It's one of those perfect dialogue lines that says everything it needs to say in the fewest words possible.
Yes, that was powerful.
Literally one of the best lines delivered perfectly
Xensonar most cringeworthy line in the game... try-hards 🤡💩
@@freestuff6773 What do you mean?
@@xensonar9652 I also didn't like it. It felt very on the nose. Not natural in some way...
I want to know more about Tommy and his time even if we don’t see it I would love to hear about the other aspects of this game. I think this would be perfect dlc showing his 3 days and his flashback moments could be all those years he and Joel did questionable things tieing back to that line about how he has nightmares from those days to Joel in the first game.
It would allow for more Joel in the story and to show how they often did bad things to survive.
HOLY CRAP THAT WOULD BE AMAZING I DIDNT EVEN THINK ABOUT WHAT HIS 3 DAYS WERE LIKE
That’s actually a really good idea.
The game is so much hated by many, that dlc is jeopardized to be never released to my highest regrets
Raghu Sharma Tommy DLC. Sounds like a great idea or perhaps a dlc following. Scar
@@sergeibotoroev6876 I don't think you can make the supposition that so many people hated it. It could be that the people that hated it were much more vocal.
I wonder why marlene is never remembered by the characters in this game. I get the impression that she was like a mother figure for ellie and she never questions what happened to her...
Leonardo Passarinho I’m pretty sure Ellie knew Joel killed Marlene once he told her the truth
You’re right!
We also found out she really didn’t want Ellie to be be killed! It’s heartbreaking...
Pretty sure Ellie has literally no reason to think that Marlene ever made it to Salt Lake. Why would she? She was unconscious the whole time she was in the hospital.
Pierre-Simon Cloutier Lavoie thats actually fair, she can think she died from the gunshot in her side or other circumstances. I definitely think it’s fair that she believes she’s dead though, since the fireflies disbanded
Considering how much Halley seems to enjoy puns, I'm surprised we never got a return of the pun joke book. Then again Ellies not 14 anymore and telling jokes while seeking revenge may be a bit of a mood killer.
there's a few in the prologue but you're right that omission of humor was definitely noticed as the days progress and the plot gets darker and darker. I believe one of the devs pointed out that Ellie initially makes a cute comment after every trading card she finds like "wow, I don't have this one yet" and then after she really starts killing she doesn't say anything after finding one:/ the small details sting so bad.
The pun books are still on The Farm...
@@SonicBroham Joel's house didn't have mirrors, show's you he couldn't even look at himself anymore because of the shame he felt. It's the little details that tell a bigger story most people will miss.
Lone Cyborg joel’s house DID have mirrors. Tf you talking about??
@@userjoao There's one bathroom that has no mirror. But the others are fine.
It is so refreshing to see two video game interviewers encourage guests to interrupt them. I also love Haley and Neil’s slightly antagonistic brother/sister relationship.
i dont love them
me too they're funny
Really? From my perspective, I thought maybe that was some negative energy. Like maybe because the reason neil brought her here with him, was to take some responsibility for the narrative..
Why else would he bring her and not, lets say, the voice of abby and dina, or something..
Edgar Hernandez why else would he bring her? Because she wrote the story too?....🤦♂️
I'm probably the rare case who didn't immediately start hating on Abby as soon as Joel died (honestly he had it coming one way or another). And as the game progress, I'm growing to love her more and more, the same way as Ellie.
Same sort of thing happened to me, but still a painful story that I found hard to stomach. I wish it was different.
don't agree with Joel deserving this or even being wrong in what he did to the Fireflies, they were the bad guys there, no matter the good intentions they had.
But yeah, the game did a great job in making her a likeable person, just trying to get back from the monster she had become in Jackson and against the Scars
Abbys a freak when Ellie told her dina was pregnant she said good
@@bibbyjins6162 she was blinded by thirst for revenge because Ellie had killed her pregnant friend too
@@baptistelasbats3952 The fireflies were the heros and he did deserve it
I think my favourite scene/moment in the entire game is from the flashback with Ellie/Tommy/Joel when the bloater almost gets Ellie and Joel hacks it to pieces with the machete. The shaking breathing of Joel/Troy brings a shiver to my spine. You can feel how shaken he is and you are reminded in that moment the feeling from the end of the Part I, he wouldn't survive losing her. This strong man, and he can barely breath. "That was too close". I fucking love these games. Thank you Neil and Halley
@splashy 76 you're such a hater lol, if you didn't expect the last of us 2 to have conflicting storylines, than you never actually appreciated it
@@CasualSharts he right though this is literally everyone favorite moment
@splashy 76 you have obviously not played the game idiot..
@@StayFractalesque It's fun watching people get triggered. And he didn't even have to say anything negative calm down dude xD
@@StayFractalesque chill tf down lol game wasn't a masterpiece. Get over it lol
I honestly never hated Abby, more like I was trying to understand why she would do that, and I think that's why the game worked so well on me.
when did you play part one?
@@Gor969 Does it matter? Some people just don't have as strong an attachment to Joel and Ellie, as the people who hate Abby
고옹 played it the first time in like 2015 and at least once a year since then, and played it right before starting on part 2.. so yeah part one was my favourite game ever and I did love Joel and Ellie lmaooo
Anonymous Dude but that’s the point I was trying to make ! I did love Joel, when I saw the scene unfold I literally felt like a part of me was dying but I still have the capacity to take a step back and question the story.. I thought most adults would react like that but apparently.. not the case !
@@adam____________ Yeah, I understood what you meant 👍
The fact that this game gave people so much to talk and debate about makes it a very good game, people don't understand that...
Agreed. But some only put negativity in their debates and some only positivity, but I love this game I can’t understand why anyone would straight up hate this game!
not neccesarily good... although I did love the game, but unique and different, which is something I respect A LOT, just like Death Stranding. I really appreciate that this game wasn't just another Ellie and Joel buddy cop movie videogame.
I was one of the people who didn’t play it at first saw the cutscenes and leaks and hated it. Then I played the game and it’s fucking amazing really makes me feel like most of the people bitching about the game haven’t actually played it...
There is that, I'm sure. In large numbers. But there are also a lot of us who found it hard to overturn the relationship we've developed with Joel and Ellie since 2013 with a 15 hour segment with Abby.
Obviously normies will like a normie game, it so transparent what the story is, 'look at abby feel bad for her, revenge is bad.'
@@shadowdawns889 actually the normie opinion is to hate the game. just sayin
I feel like Naughty Dog were screwed either way. The majority of hate seems to be from "fans" who can't accept that Joels past caught up with him. They seem to want another Joel/Ellie trek across another ruined city which would have alienated those of us who were on board with the game going in a new direction because we would have complained it was a rehash of the first game with better mechanics and graphics.
@@userjoao Don't listen to him, hes that child who stalk yhe one who killed him in Fortnite; and playing Fortnite is already a mistake
“Only when weak may I carry my true strength.” - Lev
May she guide you
Oh yeah, that was a great line!
*Whistles in agreement*
Ouf don’t quote trash
Scar!
Seeing how everyone is reacting to Halley and Neil's dynamic makes me realize most of you have never been around a high energy, goofy ass woman before lol
simp xd
excellent questions and lucid, transparent answers. Discussions are really cool when it's not so polarized.
"Fake news"
It’s refreshing to hear civilised intelligent discussion. It reassures me that not all gamers are triggered reactionary man-babies.
I guess, but it's just questions asked by people who both absolutely loved the game and gave it 10/10. It's nice that it's not toxic but it sucks that there's no differing opinions at all considering it's a game that evokes a lot of different opinions and views. Is a one-sided discussion better than one that's polarized??
@@krectus I get where you're coming from, I think a lot of the questions here were asking about what thoughts went behind devising elements of a plot and why they went with character choices. I don't think those questions are influenced by what they thought of the game, the major plot beats fell in the same way for everyone on paper, they absolutely were processed by everyone differently lol. on an interview with the writers, it's probably best to leave that " I would have done this instead" stuff out and leave it to for the video critiques I think, of which there are *checks sidebar* a lottttt of. check Nathan Zed's video out. I'm really looking forward to nakeyjakey's deep dive also.
Some of the questions were so fucking ditzy and ineloquent.
I love Halley Gross, she just seems like such a happy positive person and she's an incredible writer too. Hope she's involved in the writing of more games going forward.
Yikes
Yup she’s great and the fact she did a few episodes on westworld as well 😊
firstname lastnamè nice argument
I totally forgot the "no, you are my people" line towards Lev. I liked that line a lot when I heard it.
“You’re my people” is what made me like Abby.
Frankie Basile Yeah what they tried to achieve didn’t work with me. And to be honest i stopped caring about Ellie too. Her lack of personality in this game combined with making her a symbol of left wing politics made me not really care by the end. I enjoyed the game but they ducked up on the characters
@@davidlane147 What about Ellie is "left wing" exactly?
Fred DA They’re clearly pushing the lgbt thing and they very intentionally created all of the female characters with very masculine features.
@@davidlane147 so a story is just a story only if and when all characters are straight and women are not too muscular.....if the main character is gay or straight but is simply too muscular for your taste in women it becomes an "agenda".....interesting......
Only I feel bad for Ronda Rousey, by this rationale she can either stop working out completely or only play roles in the "LgBt LeFt WiNg MaInStReAm MeDiA MaChInE" (I guess fast and furious 8 is part of the lgbt left wing agenda then, lmao).
I also find interesting that the lgbt agenda is "left wing", as if there are no right wing gays or lesbians......
Your theories are interesting sir! Tell us more!
Fred DA No, I just don’t don’t like playing video games that are trying to force a political agenda on me. They literally made the females less feminine looking so as not to offend trans women, they put a trans girl in the game, they put the main character in a full on lesbian relationship, they had some butch woman beat up and kill our favourite character who’s a man, Tommy’s wife talks about him like shit. I mean as for the actually details and the gameplay mechanics I thought the game was outstanding but why make it political?
I watched 1 hour of interview to hear one question that never appeared : Is there going to be a part 3 ? 😂
Most likely, even if there is, they wouldn't say. Probably not even until the game has a year or two left of development.
It doesn't really make sense to be a part 3. Ellie lost pretty much everything, She won't have motivation to do anything. Unless her mother finally appears, but I don't know how could you make a game out of that
@@bartolomeumalfeitor965 Part 2 didnt had much sense and look what they delivered (at least I liked it a lot).And I believe that Ellie really deserves a "redemption" arc.
@@bartolomeumalfeitor965 yes part 3 will tell a story with muscle man abby and lev. Spoiler : abby death cuz overdose of steroid, and lev will have revenge on the steroid company. Ez writing will definitely win bafta. Oh and 1 more thing, new lgbtq characters of course and some sex scene yeah, cant wait for part 3
@@kym966 women and minorities bad, right?
Please graduate high school.
Thank you for telling this story. As much as it absolutely sucked to see how Joel's story came to an end, thank you for telling it. Please don't let the haters minimize what you all achieved with this game. I wish more people could just understand that this IS Joel and Ellie's story. There was no other way to tell it. Thank you for the BEST GAME EVER MADE!!!
This was fantastic! Why is no one interviewing Shannon Woodward?
thank you, dina is the light of this game, i need to hear about that.
Because there in damage control mode. If they put her in a interview........riots would restart..
@@EdgarHernandez-bg1pu wait what!? what did Shannon do?
Nothing i was jus playing... I actually feel bad that they didn't put more effort in her relationship with ellie,. The only time i feel connected to her is in the end, and thats when ellie decides to get away from her lol........its so frustrating..
Coz she's barely in the game 😆
I finished the game this weekend and I feel really mixed and raw. On the hand, the game is absolutely stunning in its design, graphics, battle mechanics, open world levels, and is just on a whole other level in that aspect. On the other hand, I just didn't find myself as captivated with the storyline as the writers try to get me into it. I just don't think its possible to expect people to wait 5-7 years for this game, only for one of the main characters to be offed in the first hour, spend little time with Ellie (even having her as the villain in one battle), and spending too much time with a whole new character. Although I almost shed tears with Ellie singing to Dina, and I can see that they tried to show that the world is full of characters who have done good and bad things, I just think the writers took a big risk, and for me, it didn't quite land. Maybe weeks from now, or on second gameplay, I might completely change my mind and think its the best game ever made, but that is my first impression.
@Feverroneous I've watched and listened to so many podcasts since I completed the game and I am slowly coming around. It's not that a part of me was not blown away by the storytelling and what was unfolding before my eyes, it was because I was thinking about the first game and how so many little moments and quirks resonated with me that I had never felt in any game prior. E.g. Last of Us made me realise who stupid and ridiculous games like GTA are in terms of storytelling haha. So in the end I think the only thing I can compare to Last of Us Part II....is Last of Us Part I, and for me the first game takes it for me. But that is not to downplay the level of achievement Naughty Dog has accomplished with Part II. I think in the end they are just a victim of their own success. No other game and sequel could be held to such a high standard and risk annihilation from its fanbase were it not perfect in every aspect.
What a respectable thread
Just out of curiosity, have people in your life ever called you a stubborn individual? Would you consider yourself stubborn? I think that’s where a lot the divide is with people that hate the story. At least in my group chat of 12 people. We all played at launch, I finished first and I was able to guess the 3 people that would hate the story. I don’t think it’s an anomaly that I was able guess every single person lol. Let’s just say the 3 people are kinda bull headed individuals. Lol. They project strong Angry Joe vibes. Not in a negative way. Some people just hold on VERY tight when they make up their mind about something. This game was definitely NOT for those people. Haha.
more than 60% of the game is spent with ellie. atp we spent more time with her in the second game than joel in the first game.
Among my small group of friends, I have the contrarian view that at the end I liked Abby more than Ellie, I NEVER thought this could happen
If you look at part 2 in isolation Abby was a more fleshed out character and I get that she's objectivity more likeable. The trouble I had was that I didn't start with a clean slate since I went into it with the broader context of the franchise. I think that makes the difference.
Same, i honestly wouldve (this hurts to say) fine with abby killing ellie in the end. Ellie went off the deep end and reallyy the things she did became unforgivable for me. Glad im not the only one who ended up liking abby more. The only thing ellie has over abby is dina. Absolutely love dina and i hope i see her again in another game or dlc!!
While I don’t agree with all the narrative choices, it was good to see the inner thoughts and explanations that went in to these decisions. Great interview.
Then you gotta see the Spoilercast with Neil, Troy and Ashley, really emotional and good interview
why don't you agree ? because it's difficult to watch, like morally, or because you think it wrong for the story?
“I don’t agree with all the narrative choices” sorry to break it to you, but you don’t work at naughty dog and the characters aren’t yours to tell :)
@@Coronado_G agree, really amazing interview, I also don't agree with all the narrative choices, sincerely like Neil says in this interview it was way better if we would have played with Joel in Jacksonville saving people, then his death would have been way more shocking half of the game, and a better plot twist, like this was very weak. Also they could have given him a dog to use on his patrols and to have some affinity to it, so when he died, we could see the dog suffering because he left, and that would have had a more emotional impact, like you did with Abby...
@Feverroneous I'm sorry, but who are you to say what other people have to feel or not by Joel passing away? Who are you to judge what other people feel with the game? You just validate why people say the fans of TLOUP2 are fanboys that don't can't use their brains and are completely rude and bullies online, who are you to criticize Kenny Lai opinion on the game? Who are you to tell people that lost their parents, and father figures, and had Joel as an emotional and psychological representation/backup for that? The worst reactions were exactly because people were super attached to one of the best main characters the gaming industry has ever seen. By the same reason and logic you use, why wasn't Ellie killed? Or Abby? they're just characters, why wasn't Mario killed in his franchise? Or Princess Peach? Or Luigi? Or Nathan Drake? Or Why weren't so many other main characters killed right at the second game of a franchise? The way he was killed was bad, it was way better if it had been at the middle of the game after we had played with him in Jacksonville and Abby had this double conflict against him, because he saved her, and even Abby sketches in the artwork were way better than what she became in the game, I preferred the brunette slim Abby than the Hulk that we got, if she looked weak and only chopped the arm of Joel like in the artwork that would have been way better, then she could have kept him and tortured him until Ellie would save him, that would have been a way better story, and would praise women as Ellie a lesbian woman would have saved a straight white male, that would fit the agenda behind it as well... give me a break, who are you to criticize others for their opinions and emotions they had with the game. Get lost you toxic fan.
the moment where you see abby at the end of the game is the most shocking moment ive ever experienced in a video game. it just, its not like overly crazy, but just seeing it and all that it entails is so insane
I’m surprised no interviews have asked more about the Scars and there role in the game. And if they had plans for more of there background and or motives and stuff. Just a curiosity
yeah I just wanna know what their prophet lady did that they all think shes a deity..
@@StayFractalesque I believe it is implied through a newspaper clipping that Ellie can find in the tunnels where you first encounter shamblers that the prophet was a prepper. There is some mention that she had a vision about impending doom or something like that and stocks up a bunker with supplies before the outbreak and kept her whole neighborhood safe in said bunker until they were discovered some time later by Fedra soldiers. Presumably that story brought more and more people to her and the tale grew and grew until it became what we see.
@@phildigregorio2375 wow. thank you so much. I figured it would be something like that.. any idea where I can find that clipping?
do you know exactly what happened at the exploded truck shrine? is that where she "self deleted' for the cause? i believe that's what I heard Abby say to Lev when she was there.. was it Her or a Disciple?
their
@@StayFractalesque The newspaper clipping is IIRC found in the maintainance room in the metro tunnels during the first escape from the WLF.
I think the reason for the truck shrine is only hinted at, by Abby saying "Isaac made a crazy woman a martyr".
He created the last of us. He has every right to take the story where he wants to
Actually Bruce was the big influence of the Last of Us, not this bafoon
And we have every right not to like it.
yes thank you, I didn't like the story but it's his story. fans are acting like they own the game.
@@aidalf1912 Actually we do.
@@aidalf1912 Anybody that bought the game actually OWNS the game. This is the intelligence
of the people that like the last of us 2 ... complete idiots
I really do wish they'd talk about Owen more. He was my favorite new character, and his death absolutely gutted me.
He was the only one who didn’t deserve to die. Mel, FUCK YES, Manny, FUCK YES, practically most of Abby’s friends deserved death for wanting to kill Ellie without doing anything
@@deez6102 I don't know if they deserved death for that. A.) They didn't actually do it. I don't think people deserve death for simply wanting to do something. B.) They would all (except Leah) be alive now had they actually killed her. In a way they were right to want to kill her.
I will say, of all the deaths, I view his as the most tragic because he didn't even really want to be there in the first place, and he actively stopped Ellie from getting killed.
@Michael Lindemann Ah, but they still would have done it, they would have killed a man/a girl over a friend who they most likely never really understood well enough, Joel Miller deserved to die, yes, and in a bad manner yes, but to the hands of these people wasn’t very and ideal way to go out. They didn’t deserve to die but I couldn’t feel sorry for them, (expect for Nora and Owen) those 2 were some of my favourite characters
@@deez6102 I really liked Nora too. I liked Manny as a character, but there is no debating he wasn't really a "good" person lol. Dude LOVED killing people.
@Michael Lindemann The WLF are screwed man, I’m glad that they all got the karma but I feel like Nora was soft af, I was a bit sad when she died but she disgraced Joel and that did heat me up a bit
This was a great interview Beyond, developers talking about their games is really entertaining
This game sucks though.
@@dani_i8942 suck I think is a too strong word
It took me sometime to analyse and understand the heap of emotions I experienced for the past one week ever since I started playing this masterpiece. I have been playing video games for more than 20 years now. All these years I have enjoyed all type of games but I haven't experienced such a deep and profound video game experience ever before. Naughty dog have really taken the narrative driven video game genre to another level, this is the first time in the history of video games where a game have completely resolved the problem of ludonarrative dissonance which we often associate with narrative driven video games.
(SPOILERS AHEAD)
In my humble opinion last of us 2 even surpassed the original last of us.
This time the story is more creepy, dynamic and scary.
Most of the video game developers nowadays don't take story in video games seriously, they simply put stories in their games just for the sake of putting it, as a result you would end up getting an Amateurish, and outright silly stories in almost all of the video games. It's always a challenge for developers to blend a mature story with gameplay elements which an average gamer might expect,since both are conflicting in nature, some of the developers have tried and ended up failing miserably on both the fronts. But naughty dog took bold steps to resolve this age old conflict and I can very well say that they came out with flying colors.
I have finished the game in survivor mode and the gameplay experience was very challenging and satisfying at the same time.
And the story is something which is worthy of a Netflix series on its own, throughout the game i often wondered am I really playing a video game?? That's how matured, deep and dynamic the story was. Even while playing with the NPC as your allies, the conversation which they have between themselves sounds quite natural and genuine and it doesn't feel forced, its pretty apparent that developers didn't take any aspects of the game lightly.
Despite unanimous approval from all of the reviewers some of the users are disappointed with this game and it's story, it happens mainly because of the fact that most of the average gamer haven't experienced such a deep dynamic story and character arcs in a video game ever before.
All they want is some straight to the point simple average story. Naughty dog knowingly took the bold risk of choosing a story which will divide the fan base into two and yes it actually divided the fan base, and it's fine as a video game need not satisfy all of the gamers out there, and I completely understand why some people don't like it. Most of the fans of the first game got emotionally attached to protagonist of the first game Joel, and they didn't like the fact that their favourite character died in the initial act of the story itself and the worst of all in the later part of the game they have to play as a character who killed Joel. But the main reason behind that idea was to understand different perspectives and for me personally it really worked, I started liking Abby over the course of the game, yes,at certain parts it was challenging for me, especially in the part where she had to fight with Ellie, but if you remove your unconscious emotional bias towards certain characters and play the game mainly for the sheer experience of it,then this game rewards you with a profound, real experience which you wouldn't have experienced in any other video games before.
It's been a while since I finished this game but i feel somehow sad and empty ever since. No other video game have impacted me this much.
Does it make this a perfect game?? the answer is "NO" but the game flaws can be forgiven and it's shortcomings can be ignored,since what you are playing is not some other random crap, it's a genre defining Experience which will inspire many more developers to take this route and this gem will be remembered as one of the greatest achievement in the history of video games.
5/5.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
hardcore agreed, makes me glad to see so many ppl went through the same emotional experience and got the same sense of appreciate that I did
Dude, you do realize revenge is juvenile rather than mature...
Ligan - Definitive Collisions what’s the implication there, that mature stories can’t be written with revenge as a central theme?
@@TheFreshTrumpet I'm sure mature revenge stories can be written, if you're grappling with mature content or people, but revenge is always juvenile. No one should come and tell me that going on a killing spree, destroying relationships and losing things that are dear to a person makes it worth it. That's juvenile, no matter how you look at it.
wow i hope they do more interviews, i could listen to them describe their analysis for hours
Check out the Kinda Funny one
@@c558 will do, thanks
Loved the game guys. I like how this sequel doesn't coast off of the first game's success and takes narrative risks and goes in different directions, but I also love how it feels like a logical continuation of the story the first game established.
Games garbage!!!
@@j_nepa7548 calm the fuck down , you dont like the story and think it's trash , fine , you dont have to like it . So instead harassing people who's involved with it , go on and play others game . No need for insults here . If you see a person who like it , leave them the fuck alone , they can form their own opinion about the game
@@j_nepa7548 in your opinion. Now go back to playing cod, asswipe.
Blake Wedding this game was amazing from start to finish played on 4K, good to see some one not hating because of there stupidity
@@j_nepa7548....... Wow, amazing input there.
Absolutely not once did I feel empathy for Abby. I did feel empathy for Ellie.
The problem here is that Abby is disloyal and she murders Joel in a very brutal way. Joel kills Abby's father more or less on impulse, he's just been broken the news that Ellie is about to be killed. How did they expect him to react? Abby's fathers death is because of the incompetence of the fire flies and ultimately their fault due to there poor leadership and failure to secure that operating theatre. Even though I did feel conflicted towords this I completely understand and respect Joel's loyalty for what he done and the fact we spent the first game playing as Joel protecting Ellie. Joel did not deserve to die brutally like this at the hands of the cowards that held him down while his brains are bashed in with a golf club. I wouldn't even call this an excution it was the brutal murder of a man basically infront of his daughter.
Abby is disloyal a number of times in this game. I get she's angry her father got killed and is obiviously emotionaly involved but ultimately she needs to blame the fire flies for this. What she does show is that when Lev and Yara save her life she immediately turns on the group of people she's surviving an apocalypse with and starts killing them. Maybe this is because she's after realising she made a mistake getting revenge on Joel but going on a killing spree of the people she's been working and surviving with isn't really the answer. That's just Disloyal. She further shows her disloyalty towords Mel who I'm presuming is her friend because you spend a bit of time in the game game with Abby and Mel but not enough time that really gives us a proper insight into their relationship but Abby still let's Owen cheat on Mel with her. That's more disloyalty from Abby.
I was never comfortable playing as Abby, never liked playing as Abby and probably never will like playing as Abby. Joel and Ellie are what got me into this franchise and Abby basically plots out a planned brutal murder of one of the main characters we spent the first game getting attached to. I wouldn't even argue with people saying what Joel done was wrong, but I still respect Joel's loyalty. We never got the proper chance to see how the impulse decision he made based on his good character strength of loyalty towords Ellie effects him. This was not explored enough for me in this game. Abby took that from us when she murders Joel so early in the game.
I still liked the game for the masterpiece that it is and the game deserves huge credit for this. I just do not like Abby and didn't want to to be controlling her against Ellie I felt no desire to even survive as Abby after what she done to Joel let alone fight Ellie. It's like somebody making you fight your daughter or something. Maybe this was their intention and I have never felt that way playing a game before but I didn't like the feeling. I did not enjoy having that feeling.
Would I play the last of us part 3 with Abby as the main character? I'd say not I would just watch it on RUclips or something.
Would I play part 3 as Ellie? Yes I would like that.
That’s fair
From what I have seen is no youtuber has empathy lol
Welp I hate to say then you are blind.
@@Jmcelwain17 Welp I hate to say then you are delusional.
Why would you for a horrible character like abby? Watch game sins tlou2 he shows plenty of the problems with this awful narrative
@@MrSwitchblade327 Everyone in that universe is a horrible person,but they all have positives to them. Abby shows those positives and negatives,just like Joel and Elile
@@effincasuals8877 but it failed to spark any emotional connection with Abby. Whereas we know Joel was flawed as a person, but we still loved him anyway.
Funny how Neil and I have the same favorite moment of the game. I remember being totally blown away when Abby said YOU ARE MY PEOPLE to Lev. It is such an honest and powerful line that tells you a lot about the character. I never hated Abby but I truly started to love her after that quote.
>She is pregnant
>Good
Its such an honest and powerful line that tells you a lot about the character. I never hated Abby but I truly started to hate her after that quote.
@@BLUE-wg8lp lol
@@BLUE-wg8lp You do know this happened literally after her pregnant friend and her best friend and partner got killed by Ellie, right?
@@couch-fosbos1147 Ellie killed them in self-defense and did NOT even know she was pregnant, Abby on the other hands knocked Dina the fuck out after smashing her head five times and taking an arrow in the shoulder and was ready to slice her throat knowing she was pregnant and she pocess no threat to Abby unlike Ellie... you know that right?
@@BLUE-wg8lp yeah cause ellie wanted to talk about life with them right? Yeah not a gun pointed at them by the crazy girl that killed dozens of their group while being unstable af to even remember how interrogate, how evil bastards to try to stop that little girl
I guess the bottomline with this game is, “was it worth killing a character we love and was it worth going through so much brutality, just to learn the value of empathy?”. And the answer is different per person.
It’s not like when you go to a movie and act as an observer of the piece. Here (because it’s a video game) you’re forced to do things that may not go along with your own set values.
What is ironic about this game is it’s trying to bridge opposing sides (Ellie and Abby) and yet it created opposing sides (people who love it and who hate it) that seemingly can’t reconcile with each other.
I guess it depends how much you personally cared about Joel. Some people didnt really care for him as a character. I personally appreciated this game for exploring different sides of conflict and POVs. For me the game was about people with different ideologies trying to survive. On paper it's nothing new but the way in which the game goes about it by having you play as the "villain" for half of the experience, I don't think I've ever played a game that's done that.
as someone who loved joel and grieved through this entire game because i wanted more time with them together, it’s still a yes from me. i still think the story was worth it because it was so much more than a repeat of the first game could ever be. i won’t stop thinking about this game for weeks, maybe months or years. i want games like that.
Kind of strange that a big chunk of the hate is from blind bias hatred from those who reviewed bombed it after an hour of metacritic being open.
This games the perfect game for our current climate. No one wants to hear the opposite side out an argument.. I think people will look back at this game once they relax their bias and come to love it.
@TherappingIrishman This is the dumbest comment ever bruh
Alex Farewell It is not. What he has said is pretty spot on in my opinion and encapsulates what a lot of people think about the game.
I was fortunate enough to complete this game without coming across any spoilers. I must admit, this was one emotional rollercoaster and even at some points I put the controller down as I couldn’t go through with certain actions. Since hitting the closing credit I’ve constantly reflected on the games journey and where it wanted me as the player to go / experience. Now, I can’t even remember the last time (if not any) a video game actually pulling something like this off. It’s a deep story driven game that definitely gets you to look at both sides of each character and I loved that. I have huge respect for the whole team at naughty dog who made this game possible. Definitely is one of my all time favourite video games and I’m so excited to what they’ll bring us in the future. Thanks for doing these interviews - it brilliant to watch & learn about how developers pour everything in a game.
this was my experience. and as uncomfortable as it was, these are the kinds of gaming experiences i want.
Nice words. I agree and I had the same experience!
im glad ND employees had to work like slaves to bring you your videogame.
@@sev2300 wtf ? I did and i like the second part too , if he likes it let him bruj
Well said. It´s really great to see some independent voices out there that didn´t feel forced to hate the game and looked at it with reason and were able to see it for the masterpiece it actually is.
Love this, but why would you rush a podcast/interview like this where clearly they want to keep talking about the game that we all want to hear more about it?
It doesnt make any sense! Everyone was on board to spend more time talking about it except that one boring dude... He has no sense of opportunity lol who knows what else we could have learned from the game...
Probably because they were worried people wouldn't watch if the video was too long. I totally agree though I would have happily sat here for another hour listening to their stories.
@@hootenanee29 I get what you're saying but if the video was too long he could edit it and cut some parts out. But oh well, what is done is done xD
Yeah it’s frustrating because I want to ask them so many questions just getting more backstory around talking the world with the backstory of the notes, even Isaac is mentioned in the notes. The serophites and learn more about their decision to have the prophet killed but show her words being skewed like so happen can happen with religion. This and the kinda funny podcast cover the main cores but I want to learn more about the other rich layers in the game.
Plus I want Neil to explain how we never saw stalkers before. Shamblers and the rat king are evolutions but stalkers are clearly after runners and before clickers so how did we to an entire first game without them. Haha I’m mostly joking because they were awesome enemy types but from an immersion standpoint it’s a fair question 😂
@@RajBauer Stalkers were in the first game aswell. Only the Shamblers and the rat king were new.
One thing I found really interesting from a storytelling point of view, is that Abby never told Ellie why she killed Joel.
But ellie knows why. In the theatre she said she knows why she killed Joel
David Dodek i personally thought ellie meant it as joel took away the fireflies only way to make a vaccine. Theres no way ellie knew he killed her dad when she was unconscious during it. I think the game wouldve been better if the reason why abby killed joel was simply bc he took away humanities ability to fight the outbreak. Abby wouldve been an even better person in my opinion if she had killed joel for that reason. When she killed him because he killed her dad, she just continued the cycle of violence for literally no reason.
@@daviddodek3962 she doesn't know about her dad only she's a firefly
Joel's death & Abby being a playable character never bothered me. I play this game because it is the most realistic interpretation of an apocalypse ever created. I don't bring my own bias with me when I play, I leave all that shit behind. I understand that ANYTHING can happen in this brutal world & I'm just happy that it exists because this IP is more than just a game. It's a life changing perspective.
The amount of hate the game is getting is ridiculous, Naughty Dog tried experimenting with a different play style of having you immerse into the conflict from 2 different perspective which is rare to see in the game. This game is taking a new approach into not having a happy/satisfying ending, the narrative of the game works into depicting a harsh reality in a way the player would not be able justify the deaths of the characters. It is something in which we would have to overcome.
Nah it's just Shit Writing
Armando Arellano Cool. Thanks for sharing your opinion.
I can respect them for trying something different. What I can’t respect is the terrible execution, the out of character moments from Ellie and Joel that force the narrative into a stupid direction, the way they force you to try and sympathize with a character so unlikable and unredeemable that you get a sense of satisfaction when you die in game with her, and the list goes on. The hate for this game is definitely deserved and understandable.
Hattricks 4Dayz Cool. Thank you for sharing your opinion.
Watching people criticize this game is like watching babies having a temper tantrum. Go watch Transformers 5 if you want a traditional generic plot.
as a big fan whos played the game since it first came out on the ps4 i was one of the people that wanted to see joel and ellies story continue and play as joel but this story didn't disappoint me at all i hated abby in the beginning but once i started playing her i was extremely interested i knew it was going to be a lot more than a moment i kept an open mind throughout the game and the emotions i had playing it were emotions i didnt think id had for a lot of the characters you hate in the beginning neil made a ballsy move making this story because its really a tale of people doing terrible things living in a brutal world broken and lost this game is extremely dark but i mean thats what it is 10/10 game for me
Totally agree
The issue really was that Abby tortured Joel. I doubt Ellie goes hunting for Abby if Joel was just killed or even continuing the hunt after facing her and Abby allowing Ellie to live twice. The torture part stuck with her. It didn't make sense for Abby to torture Joel because her father wasn't tortured. To torture someone your mind must go into depts that they didn't show in this game how she can go that deep and be completely fine with what she'd done after.
Yeh she’s morallly conflicted. Nobody is good in TLOU world
It wasn't just for her father. Abby was also part of the Fireflies which got completely rekt by Joel. From her perspective, he also doomed all of humanity.
Ayoul I don't think she did it for the fireflies at all. Her father was her motivation and killing Joel makes sense but torturing him doesn't.
This game is a work of art IMO, I've never felt such a wide range of emotions while playing a video game.
Brianstorm it’s an amazing game and I’m baffled by the haters, they should go back to playing cod and stay away from real Art
a game that makes you feel real emotion for all the characters involved and provides story backdrops and emotional angels facial,y expressive deserve credit where it’s due and i feel tlous 2 is the best story game i’ve played in regards to story and inflicting emotions upon me including surprising me and giving me the real reaction to some kills
Same bro
People don’t know what they want say the game was boring and to long but want it to be open world and 50 hour game
Yeah, i hate when people complain about a game being to long.. I get boring but you'd imagine they'd want as much content as possible for there $60..
@@EdgarHernandez-bg1pu Any game can be boring to anyone. For example most people would find Persona 5's 120 plus hour campaign boring but if you're into JRPGs the game length isn't boring.
i didnt want the game to end when i was playing it there were so many points i thought it was going to end and was so happy it didnt
@@LonexCyborg Oh forsure, but im sure theres parts in games that most people find boring.... Like the eavesdrop missions in assassins creed.. Ive never done one of those missions and thought "that was cool"
@@Demetrix13 i know, like in this game, i wish there was way more content... I've been waiting almost a decade for this game and its over already..
Halley and Neil are hilarious together.
47:55 "Why is she hairless, is she sick?" is from Californication, the TV series.
Becca was a rocking teenage girl too.
It’s funny in Seattle day 1 I thought it was open the world, the way you’re able to explore different locations and find different things, then that quickly went away. Loved this game though!
56:58
TLOU2 is better than most movies and TV imo lol
I knew it! Their approach for part 2 is similar to most novels that is why there are so many flashbacks which I really like!
Yeah ...ive read so many novels to not noticed the change in perspective between characters
I wish this had been multiple hours long ngl, Lucy has voiced so many questions that I also had
For all people the LOU2 story worked, most people hesitated when starting playing as Abby. Then everybody loved Abby after the flashback scene at the hospital with her father and Marlene.
I loved the game. The story was definitely different then I thought it would be. However, this is what made it good.
Mac Mc exactly , to many fuckin haters the game was 10/10
I didn't see any of the spoilers (thankfully) and I really loved the game too.
I was so shocked when Joel got killed but, it was all part of a great story.
nigga stop capping the story was ass
BeyondCashed lmao they have reasons for why they hate the damn game fanboy
Juwan what was so bad about it Troll?
It's interesting that apparently Neil has the best setup and internet connection. His voice and video quality is A+
@splashy 76 this narrative about false advertisement is pathetic
Have you seen Rogue One, Infinity War, MGS2 and many maaaany more trailers that put alternate scenes on purpose in the trailer so that the experience is not ruined?
@splashy 76 are you fucking stupid?
@splashy 76 found the uninformed being
@@StayFractalesque yes they are.
@splashy 76 get a life kid lmao
TLOU 2 is a great game, but not for everyone. You need a lot of strength of character to resist the conflicts between the two antagonistic (female) characters, which we will play one by one (even against each other), without letting ourselves be affected by subjectivism. A very difficult test, which many do not conceive, so they do not even try. I respect all gamers, whether they liked the story or not. But I only ask those who have played the whole game to express their opinion (positive or negative) on the sites, to respect real gamers and game creators! (I played TLOU 1, also a great game).
Putting out art such as video games is open to subjective criticism, since when and in what universe has content that someone put out for public enjoyment not been able to be criticized.
I loved the game but i don't think its fair to say people who didn't lack a strength of character. There were people who wanted a different story and couldn't get past that. They resented being forced into playing a story they didn't want. This game is gruelling and tough emotionally to experience. If you like that its a masterpiece, if you don't the experience sucks. I don't know the answer to that. Giving away too much details beforehand would have spoiled the story for the people that loved it. The ones that annoy me are the ones saying its a bad story solely because it wasn't the one they wanted.
@@dorkangel1076 You can never please everyone and it would be impossible for a game creator to ask millions of gamers what a game would look like. If you are a real gamer, you get carried away by the surprise of the game, don't complain that it's not the way you want it to be! But the most dangerous are the negative sites, which incite hatred to those with narrow minds and weak in character. From here to Chaos is just one step away! This is what I wanted to say.
I am officially requesting to make Halley a regular cast member
Yes
Dear disappointed people , calm the fuck down , you dont like the story and think it's trash , fine , you dont have to like it . So instead harassing people who's involved with it , go on and play others game . No need for insults here . If you see a person who like it , leave them the fuck alone , they can form their own opinion about the game , no need to bring them out and call them bootlicker or simp just bcz they like it
The one perfect thing they did was the annoying Sniper scene. Just before you find out who the sniper is, you really get to see things from Abby's perspective
I figured it was Tommy but damn he was annoying... Lol
"You're my people",OMG i love that scene, i was thinking about it just before Neil said it. Even though i have different opinion about the over all story, i love that scene, its such an impactful moment.
Loved the game. Ended up being a fan of almost every character. They did a great job building up the layers of story as we made our way through the great gameplay and world.
If this is good you got bad taste dude
@@arzaqqw thanks for the constructive comment.
@@arzaqqw lmfao get help
Lungfull drummer good to see some one else liked it no u don’t have bad taste u actually have good taste , the people who don’t like this probably just wanted some other stupid cookie cutter story with a happy ending... fuck the haters this game was incredible
@@BeyondCashed the game is incredible but the story is shit
Its just lazy writing if you want some argumen why tlou 2 is shit go to angry joe show they got some solid argumen
A moment of silence for Shimmer.
Great duscussion though.
for Jesse, Shimmer...
@@joystickblaze Joel and yara
This clarified a lot about some of my questions in the game. I just to listen to this even if it's a full hour long.
I really wish they got someone who dislikes the game aswell as someone who likes it. Where can we get a legit interview where it isn’t full of staning.
I found the game so interesting once I realized how Ellie’s inner conflict of how she was angry over Joel’s decision was in play with her outer conflict of her quest of vengeance. I really liked the resolution of how Ellie remembered her last interaction with Joel and how she was willing to forgive Joel, and how that ultimately led to her forgiving Abbey. It was really nice that when you play as Abbey she realizes her mistake and tries to redeem herself much faster than Ellie does.
👌 perfectly said
I've never experienced such wacky emotions playing a game, I cringed so hard at some scenes and wanted to cry on other scenes.
And people say the game has shitty writing, to me It's one of the best-written game ever.
Did Ellie really have to kill everyone from Jackson to Seattle to Santa Barbara in order to get the message though? I mean that's bordering on satire.
@@RachelT.773 Some is on self defense, some is not.
PS. You can stealth too.
when neil and halley go at it at twitter its so funny
Waited 7 years to play TLOU2 and they kill off your favorite character that you were hoping to play with at the start in a stupid way. This is the biggest let down since Diablo 3.
That's the problem with a story driven game. People wanted a different story than the one they got. A lot of people wanted Joel and Ellie to go on a little adventure together and sort out their issues. The story given wasn't that but that doesn't mean it was a bad story. I don't think he was killed in a stupid way, it was a tragic and brutal way but he accepted it was coming and faced it like a man.
@@dorkangel1076 The problem also is you find out the doctor was the only one who could come up with a vaccine and he tried to get in Joel's way with a scalpel. He should have known how important it was for HIM to stay alive and possibly get Ellie back. Big character flaw.
Clearly hasn't watched Game of Thrones
Well, that was your unwarranted expectation.. Doesn't make the game any less of the masterpiece it is.
Someones deleting comments I see.
stop lying..
I'm just here to admire Druckmann's balls. The amount courage he has for going with this story man...
You’re an idiot just like him
@@chrishandsome4267 stop being a dick.
Alejandro Alvarado nah he’s the dick, trying to break & hurt young children playing this game by showing them absolute sadism in a video game. Screw him & screw you for not seeing what’s going on
@@chrishandsome4267 This game has never been for children, stop being an asshole.
Hunter Sisk yeah, you’re just being kinda dumb bro
I'm never shy, and perhaps even too quick to criticise IGN (although I try and justify that with good reason), equally I believe in credit where it's due... this was an outstanding, and thoroughly enjoyable episode! And to highlight why this is as high a praise as I can give... I haven't, and won't ever even play this game. The view, the genre, nothing about it is of interest. But as a general interview and insight into (arguably) one of the best video games to date! And to second what Lucy or Jonathon said; I think Neil and Halley ought to consider regular appearances!
you think it's one of the best games out there but won't play it? did I read that correctly?
@@StayFractalesque Yes you did. I know weird huh, I'm supposed to only love what I play and hate what I don't, right!?!? As strange as this will be to you I can appreciate games that don't suit me, as much as I can criticise games I love. Equally I can find an interview interesting regardless of not being into the game. And this may be as strange to you but I watch gaming shows about systems I don't own, and can enjoy discussions on games I won't play either.
@@quantumjet253 why won't you play it?
edit. not trying to pick on you dude, just curious.. u don't have PS4, is that all?
@@StayFractalesque I don't enjoy the third-person perspective. I keep trying to play games that force this view but they completely lack immersion and atmosphere for me, which reduces my patience to near zero and kills the fun of playing. I want to be in the virtual world, to play it in the same way we experience life, so controlling a virtual puppet is just miserable to me. So this, like so many games you wouldn't believe, just isn't an option. But that doesn't stop me from appreciating it. Like many third-person games I think this looks interesting and I think the developer's are very talented. For some reason this industry accepts that gamers enjoy having a choice of view with vehicles or aircraft based games, but too often action/RPG/shooters force one view or the other. Maybe developers don't employ enough gamers to understand that player choice can not only make a big difference to the enjoyment of a game, but can actively stop some of us from even playing a game.
@@quantumjet253 sounds like cyberpunk will be the game for you then! FPP RPG.. the only game I can think of that I've played that had the option of camera was Fallout 4, and that was a little janky in TPP.. maybe some day more games will offer both, but as it is today, I think offering both is a akin to designing two different games..
“Everything but the Clickers a Memoir by Lucy O’Brien” I’d read it!!! 😂
Christ, what a BORING conversation. There are SO many aspects of Abby's character to discuss other than her "vulnerabilities"
Gag me
No, seriously, plug me up.
I finished The Last of Us 2, it was a rollercoaster of emotions for me, Abby ended up being my favourite character. When this game came out I stopped playing after the Joel moment till like a week ago.
44:15 is the best part for me. I love how Neil pays attentions to Halley
I loved it, they took a big risk and they knew exactly what they were doing.
How do you people that hated it would’ve liked the second one to go?
their ideas are terrible, trust me.. you know what is a better question to ask the haters is "do you like anything at all? what game would you consider great?" .. 9/10 won't answer those simple questions
The way Joel dies.
He should've be more careful with Abby and those guys that were "passing" through the city. He should asked Tommy if it was secure to get in, maybe Tommy feeling more comfortable because they saved Abby, then when they asked their names, Tommy says his and Joel just says "Joel". Everyone watch him and he try to defend himself before they do somethin and then you put the rest just as it was. It is a small but substantial change.
They took the risk of making us play as Abby after she just killed Jesse, but the risk was not worthy because it just make you hate her more. They should make the change between Abby and Ellie every day in Seattle, so you build up the final encounter and maybe make you choose between the 2 of them and they could keep the events as they made it. The fact that you have to start all over, crafting and all of that with Abby again it's just tedious, in a gameplay point of view it just doesn't fit well.
And at the end Ellie should just kill Abby. She risk everything she had, knowing the consequences of going against her again for nothing, she let her leave and that makes absolute no sense. If Ellie kill Abby, she could start feeling worst for herself and leaving lily in the boat to his luck. Then Ellie came back her home, realized she loose everything, and you keep the message that revenge takes everything from you.
@@StayFractalesque the millions of copies sold beg to differ.
Halley and Neil have such a cute brother sister relationship.
Two woke brothers what a cute relationship
This game was emotionally very difficult for me to get through. I fucking hated Abby at first and when I initially fought Ellie I kept running in and letting myself get killed. But after I did this for a while I realized that I was exhibiting the same rage that Abby and Ellie share. I hated Abby because of my deep emotional connection to Ellie in the last of us part one. It’s ironic that the response to a game about recognizing empathy has been met with such outrage. While it’s not my favorite game it is still a work of art unique from any other game I’ve ever played.
I agree with every bit of that, yet I don't love the game since it is too painful. I wish I didn't play part 1 and just played part 2 with a clean slate.
Thoroughly enjoyed this interview. Great stuff. Halley and Neil are awesome.
As they say:
"Seek Revenge And You Should Dig Two Graves, One For Yourself."
Yep exactly! Except in this game where they both live.
@@krectus Because they ended the cycle of revenge before it was too late. Get it?
@@peacefortherestless8719 yeah I get it, it was a not so clever jab that didn't do a good job at telling that classic "two graves" story because they held back with the ending. Thus showing this guys quotes isn't actually a good quote for this game.
@@krectus its actually quite fitting considering the fact that meterphorically Ellie was digging the holes while killing Nora, Owen, Mel and as Abby against Joel, Tommy & Ellie/Dina. They realised what was slowly destroying the lives of themselves and those around them. Their loved ones. Lev presence changed something within Abby to realise that the whole revenge cycle was too destructive. Through Lev Abby understood Joel and Ellies relationship and what they had which softened her greatly
@@peacefortherestless8719 lol, yeah I get all that. I'm just saying this game actually proves that quote wrong. Both Ellie and Abby sought revenge and neither ended up digging two graves. Especially Abby who got her revenge and lived.
Love that Neil and Halley are willing to dive into the game like this, they truly made a masterpiece
hahahah tlou2 is trash game, they made a propaganda shit , i couldn't dive into the game, every streamer, youtube gamer couldn't dive into the game. fact
I really enjoyed the language the game developed with its mechanics and animations and how it used these to create important emotional beats, emergent events, and make the world feel organic.
(please read i want second opinions)
Not only does it do this internally but also building off of Part 1. One of my favorite emotional beats in the game was a call back to Part 1 where in a flashback we're fighting a bloater. And in the end of the fight if you're hit, the familiar and brutal death animation where the bloater grips into ellie's mouth begins, which has always meant 100% death. But instead, In that moment we get to see Joel's unwavering dedication to Ellie when expectations are subverted and he instead savagely kills the bloater. It created a unique and unexpected moment of excitement and relief, and happiness and genuine gratefulness after an intense battle on survivor. This also happens on a smaller scale, like when joel stands ready to boost you over a wall like we've done countless times before, but instead Ellie does it herself because we've grown beyond him. Or like when the only time we need to use a movable plank/ladder is with Abby, which is a nostalgic piece used once specifically with Abby instead of Ellie.
This happens internally too, with the game's own unique features. The guitar moments through out are built up as this moment of respite, relief, and catharsis in contrast to constant scrounging and survival. All awesome moments, and then in the final fight vs. Abby when we see her fingers bitten off I remember audibly yelling at the screen, "Nooo!! Ellie now you won't be able to play your gee-tar!! :(" And when you arrive back home and you begin playing, but unable to hit all the notes, damn it was beautiful. Nostalgic feelings of calm were replaced sorrow and loss, as Ellie is forced to let go.
This also created emergent events that I really enjoyed. Like in Seattle Day 3 (i think?) when Ellie enters a side building you don't even need to explore. You open the door and bottles atop shake and you know someone's been alerted your there. You explore, crouched, listening, expecting someone. Then you see the workbench and you feel safe, you're like nice, upgrade time, then bam! ambush, it was a I knew it moment! and surprising at the same time, so fun. Similarly with Ellie in the flashback, they have bottles lying around and Ellie takes her gun out are your thinking, there must be clickers, creating this intensity as you read a firefly believer's last words, but ultimately the danger wasn't an enemy, but opening an emotional wound with "Firefly Liars" on an otherwise sweet b-day. Also interesting, the same buttons/ gui you're using to throw Molotovs, smoke bombs, and bricks your using to throw snowballs, tennis balls, and squishy toys, I like the contrast.
Also like mario haha, the designers knew what players were going to do and created unique moments out of this too. Favorites being climbing up the dinosaur (because who wouldn't?) and releasing the clicker on the douche in Santa Barbara.
Also there's one puzzle I absolutely love in the game (seattle day 3 again? I think? lol) where it combines glass shattering, brick throwing, and a rope puzzle with more Seraphite hints. The one where you use the noose of a Sepharite victim as a rope to to enter a locked room with tons of loot on the other side. But unlike the others you have to break a glass to throw the rope this time, a glass which is horizontal instead of vertical and can only be reached with a throw able, which gives you the ability to throw the rope over to climb up. It felt great and made me feel smart for doing it even if it was simple, because it felt organic. (the trash can puzzle where you open the garage while its moving is a close second)
(I also liked the combat a lot more in this game for the same reasons as everyone else, verticality, new enemy types, level variety, weapon variety, revamped stealth, watching scenes through game play, etc.)
Overall the language it develops with various game play elements was awesome and are what make this game special to me
Couldn't have put it better
Wow, the plank - the moment Abby becomes Joel
Also I just posted this a few minutes ago - I think my favourite scene/moment in the entire game is from the flashback with Ellie/Tommy/Joel when the bloater almost gets Ellie and Joel hacks it to pieces with the machete. The shaking breathing of Joel/Troy brings a shiver to my spine. You can feel how shaken he is and you are reminded in that moment the feeling from the end of the Part I, he wouldn't survive losing her. This strong man, and he can barely breath. "That was too close". I fucking love these games
You saved me the time of commenting this myself. Well said
Damn I actually liked that hub/open world setting concept
Thanks for this amazing story! An experience I'll never forget.
Game was trash idiot.
@@abelruiz1996 Dear this person , calm the fuck down , you dont like the story and think it's trash , fine , you dont have to like it . So instead harassing people who's involved with it , go on and play others game . No need for insults here . If you see a person who like it , leave them the fuck alone , they can form their own opinion about the game , no need to bring them out and insult them
@@Alex-gs4nk dear this person, welcome to the internet.
@@abelruiz1996 what a troll
@@abelruiz1996 Sure dumbass.
OMG! Yes, if Abby had killed Ellie in that theater she would have starved to death on that beach. I JUST REALIZED THAT!!!
Hahah that's definitely not why she was spared tho 😅
Ellie saved Abby live from dieting from starved to death on pole and again when ellie let her go when she was growing Abby ellie saw there no sense killing her even thou she had reason but ellie saw humanity flash back of Joel made her realize that.
So much respect and admiration for Neil and Halley!
Here is your The Last of Us Part 3; Open world, choose your character, unlock them or even loose them trough story (To make chronology and history progression valid)... And go explore the world for their own reasons! Ellie knowing about the Fireflies and want to try one last time to find a cure, abby with the fireflies ear about another immune person, giving her a reason to go on an adventure, Tommy want to find Abby, giving the opportunity to adapt an handicap person's idea as gameplay (Risky to use the hate again, it's just some brainstorm), Dina's stuck in Jackson and have to fight back some real problem intruder (Why not a section where as Dina, you help fortify(Personalisation) Jackson trough missions?). Use sailing, driving, horses depending of the road or the weather... Whatever. Just a way to make it an acceptable Open World where you enjoy The Last Of Us universe in a lighter way. It'd be different, and to me it's the only way to not abuse the concept of the game (Darkness, Sadness, violence) and to finish it in beauty. Even Neil is trying to think of a way to make a Part 3, saying he's no sure if there is a way to make it without spoiling it, making it repetitive.
Yay! What a surprise treat this is!
Such a painful game for me and I would've wanted the story to go in a different direction. Still, it's a difference between giving a 9 or 10 out of 10. A very good game.
I just wish the story was different. I'm certainly no writer so this will probably be trash but maybe something like this: The game starts with a cutscene showing Ellie and Dina and their happy life together in Jackson. The game takes place five years after the first game, Ellie and Dina have been together for three years already and plan on being together forever. Despite the threats outside of Jacksons walls life has been pretty good on the inside. Abby finds out Joel is in Jackson, her crew attacks Jackson trying to get to him. Abby ends up killing Dina during the battle. Abbys crew underestimated the strength of Jackson, they fail and retreat. Nobody in Jackson knows who they are or why they attacked, they assume they are just bandits. The player knows they were looking for Joel but not why, info about Abbys father is revealed later in the game. Dinas death destroys Ellie and she decides to head out for revenge. Ellie knowing Joel, Tommy and Maria won't want her to go sneaks out at night. The next morning Joel finds out she is gone and takes off to find her. You play as Ellie alone for a little while, eventually Joel catches up to her "you think i'd let you do this on your own" and they continue on together. Along the way you switch to playing as Joel for a while then back to Ellie (never as Abby). Tommy was worried about his brother and Jessie was worried about his friend so they eventually catch up to Joel and Ellie. As you progress through the game Ellie kills Mel, Owen kills Jessie, Tommy kills Owen, Joel kills Manny, Tommy gets infected, Abby kills Joel (he goes down fighting) and Ellie brutally kills Abby. Ellie and Abby both got their revenge but the cost clearly wasn't worth it for either of them and that is the point. Obviously way more details are needed but something like that would be much better imo because we get more time with Joel and Ellie together and Joel doesn't go out like a golf ball. The main reason the first game is so loved by so many is the relationship between Joel and Ellie. Not the world, not the graphics, not the combat, not even the story. I liked all those things too but Joel and Ellie made the game so to just discard Joel so soon and spend half the game playing as his killer ruined it for me. It wasn't The Last of Us anymore it was something totally different. I was hyped for a sequel not a new franchise. At the end of the day it's just a game, not the end of the world. For those that did love it that is cool and i'm glad you had a great time.
But there’s no meaning behind any of that though? It’s just a killing spree.
@@tehwinnerz5006 The meaning is somewhat similar to how the real game turned out, a story of revenge. Abby is trying to avenge her father and Ellie is trying avenge Dina. In the end it wasn't worth it because they both lose everything in the process. Like I said, i'm no writer. I just wish it was different.
Why does Joel needed to go down fighting like a hero? No offense but your sketch is just a bit by bit copy of any other cliché story out there. They dared to break the rules and tell a different story. Some people will love it some will hate it.
@footferry1589 We already care about Ellie, getting a glimpse of Ellie and Dina's life together at the start and how much Dina's death devastates Ellie could be enough. It only took Naughty Dog a few minutes to get us to care about Joel and Sarah and they had people crying over Sarahs death and feeling bad for Joel after only knowing them for about ten minutes so I have no doubt they could pull that off.
@@dogofwar5272 what If joel got kidnapped and tortured instead of killed and we as players "saved joel as ellie/ changed our minds as abby "and by the end of the game we had a great farm family moment with Joel and ellie and maybe dina and jj etc..(like the ending of uncharted 4) would have been an amazing heartwarming moment.
Abby could slowly change her mind while torturing joel and getting to know him and forgive him by the time ellie finds them and then Ellie tries to kill Abby and Joel maybe protects Abby from ellie (after realizing her reasons and how similar she is to ellie). And ellie could accidently stab joel while trying to stab abby or wtv. Making ellie forgive abby for kidnapping joel.
Idk i just love happy endings and this game's ending left me.massively sad and depressed . . . And scared that this might be the last we see from ellie...alone and sad... :c
The game didn’t have enough of joel . I don’t mind him dying , but they Should’ve killed him off in the middle of the game . The character that we grew so attached to in the first game was only in like 10% of the second game .
Agreed. Joel and Ellie’s relationship was what made the game a masterpiece. It’s annoying how little he is in the game especially after all the false advertising.
Is it just me or does Halley look stunning! Neil looks great too. but Halley looks like heavenly.
lol.. those two always look sharp hi key
They both look great yes, and Neil is so handsome 🤤 he's 25 years older than me and can be my dad but he's so fine! I can't be the only one who finds the Vice President of Naughty Dog very attractive 👀 🔥
@@XxMarikax 🙋♀️ he's hot
@@XxMarikax . Damn SOMEONE WANTS THE D
@@blackoutemzz2674 lol only Neil's d..but I know he's married, lucky wife
I personally enjoyed the game, but I think I'm starting to see a flaw in using empathy as a jumping off point. Yes, Abby had her reasons to kill Joel and Ellie likewise responded to that with her anger at not being able to restore the relationship.
The thing is, having to empathize with a character we are designed to hate (bit of an oxymoron) is such a big ask for the viewer to reconcile with. Even if the writers tried with making Abby a complex character, you cannot escape the feeling you are being emotionally manipulated when playing her. Naughty Dog put such faith in the viewer at being able to at least get some understanding at what Abby's motivations were at the end, and that is where I think the flaw lies.
If the intention from the onset was to simply present Abby's side and you as a player could make what you want of her, shouldn't it come as no surprise then when audiences aren't all on board with accepting her? After all, the game was designed with the premise that it's in our power to feel validated with whatever emotions we choose to come away with from her POV.
I will say this, I will refrain from calling the game a bad game because it's not that simple, as the story has to be one of the most ambitious experimental direction I've experienced, and had many beautifully crafted subtle moments. I can respect that, and thank you for trying.
10/10 for emotions.
7/10 for story.
This is very well put. It is truly a big task to make you like someone who killed your favourite character so brutally. And honestly, for many people, me included, it doesn’t work. I actually liked Abby, but never to the point of her surviving Ellie’s revenge. I personally feel Neil and Haley setup a huge challenge for themselves and as such maybe, just maybe, that no matter what they write for Abby, it just doesn’t work as intended.
agree with everything that you said except that they should cater for the majority. Neil said time and time again how divisive he knew the game would be and I think its great that we are in a place where AAA studios can take huge risks in storytelling that they know will be unpopular. If the game didn't try this t would have had nowhere near the amount of impact it did
I respectfully disagree. I think it depends on the audience your talking about. Sadly gaming culture isn´t as reflected is it wants to be and can´t handle psychological ambivalence all that well. Storytelling in gaming hasn´t come very far. You find these kinds of narrative structures in arthouse cinema for decades. I think this game was in a way too progressive for it´s audience. Despite it being so easy to criticize game journalists and critics i think people miss to critique the problematic culture of gaming.
Christian Schmitz yes I fully agree with that. and I hate describing it that way because it makes you sound really condescending and like you’re almost saying “you don’t like this game because you’re dumb” but there’s no real other way to put it. most video games and big budget Hollywood movies have got an audience so used to structure and the idea of good and bad that nobody is used to outside of the box storytelling. and let’s face it. the gaming community is generally the least progressive and open minded out of all mediums
@@louispemberton4156 agreed 100% ;)
Can I just say I appreciate that you got to the point and jumped straight to the questions? This other podcast (Kinda funny games) the guy kept chit-chatting for 10-20 minutes before actually getting to the point.
YES, i completely agree, the interviewer in that interview took up way too much time talking and giving his interpretation when all we’re there for is to hear the others talk!
That’s how Greg Miller is tho and I like that about him. He’s a legit fan of Naughty Dog and what they create. He’s also really good friends with the cast as well. So it was nice to see a friendly chat of the game.
Yung Snow ya i’m glad we have both interviews at least
Aron Arguello Same. I enjoyed both interviews, always great to hear from Neil.
I personally didn’t like Abby. Joel had a good motive for what he did. He was saving Ellie because he didn’t want to lose her and they didn’t give him a choice. Marlene understood Joel’s struggle, she knew Joel would suffer and she tried telling the doctor. But Abby? 4 years after her father died, she’s still looking for revenge? And with no good motivation. Joel saved her life and she just decides to torture and murder him anyway. Ellie begged for her to stop and Abby knew she was causing the same pain to Ellie that she had when losing her father. I just can’t forgive her or empathize with her after that. Not only that, but Abby has intimate relationships with Mel’s boyfriend very shamelessly. Abby and her friends did not deserve Ellie’s mercy.
Abby wasn't really looking for revenge for 4 years, happened she ran into Joel and took advantage of the moment , and actually, a lot of people would seek for revenge for years and years , thays how some people.are
@@remagine I'm pretty sure she came to Jackson with her friends looking for Joel specifically. They were trying to figure out how to lure him out so they clearly were seeking revenge. Her running into him only magically and conveniently saved them the trouble of having to come up with an elaborate plan.
Thank you! Someone else notices this huge oversight. The human psyche does not work like this. Want to hear another oversight? Abby's father CONSCIOUSLY starts an altercation with Joel. "I won't let you take her." He says after grabbing a nearby scalpel and pointing it menacingly in Joel's direction. Nevermind the fact that he has little chance of winning and will leave his daughter an orphan. This is the best that Druckmann can come with after 6 years of development?
It’s a video game. A story in a video game. A great story in a video game. We are very critical with this game but don’t say shit about assassin’s creed odyssey. I loved the story. Empathy in the end wins. The whole feeling about “I hate her”, “ I don’t sympathize” with her is point of the story. No one talks about how great the gameplay or how the environments are really good.
@@josecarlosramos7007 I agree! I love every second of.it for me its a masterpiece
Lucy O'Brien. was she the one who called the people who didn't like the game virgins? or was it homophobes?
game virgins, that statement pushed back gamers into the 90 connotation
I mean that's true lol, they're brain dead sheep
@@gregwxst whether you like the game or not name calling like that is really immature.
Well I know what the people who don’t like it are called “Idiots”
@@BeyondCashed I lost brain cells trying to read this.
47:55 So, Ellie and Dina confirmed hairy down there. That helps my... research greatly, thank you.
I honestly didn’t think this was new info, look at Dinas armpit hair. The old ways no longer exist
Although in a safer haven like Jackson you could see that maybe a truth to normalcy, similar to Catalina island maybe
Raghu Sharma Dina had hairy pits but shaved legs 😂
Mike Hunt haha well they do still live in a community with electricity and water so not hard to imagine they would want to shave from time to time 😂
Raghu Sharma 😂 Big Dina wanting to be the masculine one out of them two lol
Dina's Jewish. She's hairy no matter what
I guarantee 99% of people who think this game is bad it’s because of what happened to “that” person at the beginning of the game because most people wanted to play as that person or at least have them tag along for most of the game. That didn’t happen, so therefore, the game sucks or is bad. Let’s just say that didn’t happen to that character but another character (lets say Dina or Tommy) and rest of story was the exact same, then those same folks would think the game is great.
I would love to have been able to explore Jackson more coz it was so cool and I didn't want to leave; the stadium also but to a lesser extent. I tried accessing the gym as Abby to see what her bench press was lol.