Podcast: Book Discussion - The Three Body Problem Part 3: Death's End
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- We're back talking about books! After navigating schedules, we've finally managed to reconvene to talk about the third and final installment of the Three Body Problem series: Death's End. The scope of this book is truly immense, even as the main themes distill and come to a head. Remember, there are full spoilers here, so we recommend you read these fantastic books first.
1:41 - An unusual beginning
9:22 - The swordholder and the male/female metaphor
16:24 - Post-deterrence and 4D chess
21:42 - Fairy tales
25:44 - c
28:48 - Bunkering down
32:24 - The museum
34:21 - The final decision
42:08 - Circling back to the beginning
Music: Sailing The Solar Wind by Abstraction
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![Death's End [Spoiler] Review | The Three Body Problem](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Yz5n3888buE/mqdefault.jpg)
There was this scene in the pocket universe that really resonated with me. Sophon and two human characters are receiving the Returners' message from the great universe. The message is sent out in 1.5 million languages. As it comes through, the three are desperately hoping to see their own languages pop up, not because they want to be able to read the message, but to know that their worlds had left some small mark on the universe, that someone somewhere still remembered them. Forgotten is all the fear and suffering that one civilization once brought upon the other. In its place is only the joy and excitement that the universe still remembered Earth and Trisolaris.
And maybe this is what "Remembrance of Earth's past" really means
Thank you for this! I remember listening "Humanity" as title of the message and feeling so much joy, just like the characters. I was walking my dog in the dark while still on pandemic years.
This book's 4D section messed me up. I finish this book a year ago and I still can't stop thinking about it.
On youtube theres a quietly spoken lady named Tibbies who does various illustrations and discussions about 4 dimensional space and often compares it to 2 dimensions. Look her up. tibbies and her 4 dimension videos
I have a terrible habit of falling asleep when reading a book. It worked out well for this book. Everytime I fell asleep I got these beautiful dreams of being in space and being part of the story. I've never experienced something like that.
You guys summed it up really well.
I have the three audiobooks over 26 videos on RUclips. Each is 2/3 hours in length. Now i know the story, I just fall asleep with it on shuffle. Despite all the crazy set pieces, the way of tea is the A plot in my dreams mostly
We shouldn't forget that after the destruction of The Solar System it was the crew of The Blue Space which carried on the human lineage.
The only kind of person who hates an escapist is the jailer
still mad they did not consider curvature propulsion as if doomsday isn't coming
They turned out to be right
@@rootsOfMadness15 they wanted to believe there was any other alternative. Refusing to accept the cosmic despair was their greatest undoing
@@rootsOfMadness15 it is wild cause the entire population of the solar system humans literally saw the trisolarans survive the photoid strike by means of lightspeed travel
Great job! I love the "Three body problem" series. This is my favorite, the greatest books I've ever read in my life.
There’s whole sections you didn’t even mention. This podcast could have been another hour. It’s such a big, detailed, amazing book.
There is actually mentioned in those three fairy tales from Tianming Yun of the possibility of 2D weapon, where I remembered there is part of the story in "the world in the drawing", but the human never get the idea from that and eventually lead to the destruction of Sol system by the "2D foil"
I never understood the umbrella preventing that from happening and how that applied to something they could create
I know this is an old comment, but I believe Cheng Xin later realised that Yun Tianming was referring to 2D foils when he spoke about the painter and people disappearing/turning into paintings. It was a very literal hint that they didn't really have the context to understand at the time.
@@geordiejones5618 was it representing a black domain cloud around the solar system to slow light down and hide them from attack?
@@rhpiggy123 Yes, the Black Domain solution.
@@rhpiggy123 I don't think it represents the Black Domain solution. Because in the fairy tale the master painter was once turned into a painting but he still came back to life with the help of the umbrella, which indicates there's a way to come back to life (back to 3D) from the 2D plane. But the master painter also said that once you have been painted you are gone for good. Then how did the Master Painter come back to life (in 3D) after turning into a painting (2D)?
Also, Yuan Gifan of Blue Space mentions, to Cheng Xin, that 3D lifeform can continue to live in 2D plane.
Thankyou for the wonderful discussion! Also, I think it was the trisolarians who gave the small universe to them at the end, not a random alien race.
The alien that threw the 2d bomb kinda had a discussion with his superior about whether they should be using them because of some discussion going on about them...apparently the 2D bomb never slows down, just continues collapsing the 3D space into 2D until all 3D space is consumed. If multiple bombs were dropped, to which I think they are alluding to, then space would be collapsing faster.
Nope, not a discussion, it's more like "hey boss can I drop this bomb?"
"yep"
"wait, really? Just like that?"
"yep"
*throws bomb*
@@Dr._Atom Yeah but he asks the boss about the rumor spreading amongst the cosmos that it's time to jump down to 2d space and that's why they don't care how much they advance the rate of collapse
The dimensional strike that collapses space into lower dimensions has been going on since the beginning of the universe. The Universe was once 10 dimensions, but cosmic warfare in the dark forest has collapsed space from 10 down to 3. Due to these dimensional weapons, eventually the entire universe will collapse to 2 dimensions.
Trisolarans basically using Psychohistory to manipulate the election of the right swordholder :) Can't believe anyone missed this!
Psychohistory as in Isaac Asimov’s Foundation. Yeah. She’s apparently democratically elected, but maybe with Trisolaran intervention.
Prince Rupert's drop is the name of the glass droplet you mentioned
Great review, kind of sad you guys didn’t cover like all of the Australia stuff and the human hunters
Yeah I think Death's End deserves two episodes.
That was my favorite part. Crazy curveball
"Food? Look around you. You are surrounded by food." That haunts me.
The main thought of this book - waht if life affects universe not only in scale of planet, but in universal scale (destroing it)
Interestingly, 99% percent Chinese readers harshly criticize ChengXin for not returning the full amount of matter back and keeping tiny bit for herself
oh right have you done a poll?
LoL!
Chen Xin is the most criticized character here in China, every one died because of her poor judgements but she is the only one survived.
YEAH! I mean we can agree on blaming her for everything for real!
I like you! You've earned my follow!
Her continual rewards for cowardly decisions did annoy me in America too
As a character I hated her, but how I see it is, life’s not fair....but in the end it doesn’t really matter anyway.
I was really angry at her too but the words of AA and Yifan made me rethink a bit.
The book had a very cynical storyline and the most non-cynical protagonist. Beautiful balance by the author.
I really appreciated and enjoyed the work you did discussing these 3 books, but I was kind of shocked at the end of this review that when you discuss Cheng returning to this blue planet that you didn't mention that it was yun tianming that was left there with AA while Cheng was stuck in limbo, and the implications of that. And that this universe was managed by the trisolarans. Or did I get that last part wrong?
I think the miniature universe was created by the Trisolarans, but they gave it to Yun Tianming. Tianming in turn gave it to Cheng. We never learned what Tianming did to get his own universe.
@@rajivlall1691 Actually I just started reading the book redemption of time which is the Cixin Liu approved fanfiction/spin off, and so far it seems to be moving to answer many unanswered questions such as this
This would be a trippy movie. All the dimensional imagery and hi-scifi concepts would probably turn off the average Star Wars fan. I agree that the 2nd book was the best. It had the core Dark Forest Theory that continues into the third book and the ultimate fate of the Earth. Can you imagine the scene of three dudes in a control room. "Hey, we got another one. Smoke it."
Lol. I loved that bit. "Boss, I won't be able to use the regular photoid that destroys entire stars on this one. Can I use the thing that literally reduces dimensions in an infinitely large region of the universe?" "Hmm? Sure, just let accounting know."
Hey can you guys please also review 'The Redemption of Time' by Baoshu? I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this fan follow up ending to the Three Body Problem.
I like Thomas Wade. Love like Cheng Xin could screw up the whole humanity.
Had they gone with Wade there would have been a war and no one would have escaped.
19:50 Prince Rupert's droplet
I have a grievance with dimensional warfare. One of the main tenants of the dark forest hypothesis is that speed of light is finite which makes instantenous communication impossible, right? Therefore making cooperation nonviable in the universe. But when the universe was 11th dimension or so, speed of light was infinite and that tenant didn't apply. It shouldn't have led to a dark forest scenario then.
your mistake is thinking that instantaneous communication is in itself, a deterrent. there’s still “chains of suspicious” and “technological explosions” to think about. Not to mention survival being the first and foremost goal of civilisation. The book also mentions beings that have the ability to live/exist in a lower dimension. If you have that ability and in trying to control your home dimension, you fail- seems plausible to then escape to that lower dimension while the higher collapses.
max speed at wich information can travel is caped, having access to an additional dimension allow you to fold space in that dimension, and poke a hole in 2 places at the same time, creating seemingly instantaneous comunication. In order to have instantenous comunication in a 4th dimensional (+time) universe, you need to find out a way to gain access to a 5th dimension, so you can bend it and poke a hole in it. And this process repeats no matter how many dimensions you have. The dark forest is a beatiful analogy that applies to our universe, But yea you are right that if we don´t know what happens in 4th+time and higher dimension or what is the max speed in wich light travels or even if there is a limit, the dark forest might not be enough excuse to explain their hostile interactions.
Good discussion. I have just finished the 3rd book, so it is nice to get some other perspectives.
Im 18 and i read it..idk if i count as a non adult or not
Hey man. At this point, who are you saving spoilers for? Why would you ever consider that?
Guy: Chengxin, I think I pronounced that decently? 9:43
Me: Hubris kind of proud nature of humanity. 9:17
Well, to be fair, that's decent enough, but still...
Enjoyed the discussion, thanks, just finished and needed to rehash this stuff! It is ~50% longer than the others by page count
Why didnt the trisolarans find the 4d bubbles before the humans?
Space is like…..really big.
@@bubblehulk7647 so the humans just got really lucky? The trisolarans traveled so much more than the humans… and I was really rooting for them and it didn’t turn out so well for them. Or anyone really except for those badasses destroying the universe 😂
@@tookie36 finding anything in the universe is lucky.
Not figuring out how to use it to save their species was probably pretty unlucky.
Epic stories.
There's definitely going to be some type of media production from these books. Not sure if a movie would be enough to capture everything, it might have to be a tv series.
There were animations made by fans using Minecraft,producers got pretty good skills,but i havnt seen it on youtube,only on bilibili.com , a chinese video hub,would u mind if i share the link?you might need a vpn and mandarin anderstanding to watch it
About the DROPLET in part 2 ,THE DARK FOREST,there is a video also created by fans called "water drop",search and u will find it
@@guanlinyang7682 Sounds great.
@@wolf-man-bear-pig-torque ruclips.net/video/2QYwGIdYm2w/видео.html
@@wolf-man-bear-pig-torque ruclips.net/p/PLJ1-YFDG-WNqa3YQBK1m3PGzqok6m2LZV
Animation S2
that is the repost from original site,without permittion of course
Finally some in-depth chat on this great book. So many cool sci-fi ideas here. I mean in many books author has one cool idea and builds the whole book around it and trying to utilize it as much as possible. Here they come one after another, when reading all 3 books (and mostly Death's end) I wondered many times - how the author could come up with so much cool ideas?
I'm 55 definitely not an adult. Not read the books either but trawling the second hand shops now for them. The 4D stuff sounds mind blowing.
You guys actually did the final book! Finally~ (｡>∀
If it's a 2D space bomb then why do only the objects in the space convert to 2D?
No, everything in the universe will eventually get converted. That's why they were used sparingly until now (because singer's civilization is planning to turn themselves 2D, so it won't matter to them).
What did that story at the beginning allude to?
The prostitute “Magician” clearly could interact with 4D space. She could become a Saint and save her people if she succeeds…but she fails and dooms her people. Just like someone else.
In the light of the current event, the conversion of Hagia Sofia into mosque, this podcast would have reach wider audience, not just us scifi geeks
Thank you for a great diskussion, never seen a sci-Fi book incoorporate string theory in fiction like that. But still not quite sure about the interpretation of the first chapter can anyone help? 🤔
I am guessing someone else explained it elsewhere, but the first chapter is an example of humans encounter with 4D in Constantinople. The witch was able to go into the fourth dimension and help the the Emperor.... but when the critical moment arrived, the 4D bubble had moved or dissipated, and she was unable to accomplish her mission.
@@justinwking Thank You 😃
@@sidseljess4119I just finished the book and asked the same question on Reddit.
The answer was basically- Not only was the “magician” interacting with a 4D bubble, but she’s a nobody that could become a saint if she succeeds…but she fails the the empire falls. Sounds a lot like Cheng Xin
@@bubblehulk7647 Thanks 👍🏻😃
@@sidseljess4119 still thinking about this book two+ years later?
Great discussion!
great discussion thanks
Explain the witch allegory to me please.
It’s mentioned in the last 5 or 6 minutes of the video that the witch had discovered a pocket of 4D.
I think it'd be really cool if they did the first movie with live action, but made the VR parts full anime.
how to tag netflix and let them know about this
@@TheJokieliu @netflix ? Haha
The tencent adaptation kinda did it like that, only as game images instead of anime, if that makes sense.
B.S. If you changed spacetome once, you could do it again.
Great discussion. Thank you.
Far better at 1 25 speed
The title of the book is badly translated. It's a little more complicated and means something more like in the end the god of death always prevails.
I was expecting more of a literary discussion, not just a plot synopsis. Your other parts were better than this one.
I don't get the dark forest theory. If someone screams out their location, and you can't be certain of anything why attack. How do you know you're technologically advanced enough to wipe out the civilization?
If you're not certain whether that someone exposing their location is a threat, it's safe to shoot first and ask questions later. If you know they aren't a threat now, you can't be certain whether they will become a threat later. So it's safe to shoot first and ask questions later.
Well, if you can destroy a solar system casually, you can be fairly sure that you are technologically advanced enough to wipe out the civilization or at least have the potential to do so, and that in turn makes you an absolute threat to everyone else.
Logic then follows: Since you have this ability, it is only a matter of time before someone else possesses this capability too even if they can't do it right now, so ignoring that potential risk is done at your own peril as a species.
The two key axioms state that 1) the primary need for a civilization is survival, and 2) a civilization will continue to grow and expand but the amount of matter in the universe is constant. What this means is that you as a species value your own survival more than the survival of someone else, and the amount of resources available to you in the universe are finite. Which means there will be competition. Then add in the ideas of the chain of suspicion and technological explosion. Conflict can be avoided with communication, however the time required for any meaningful interstellar conversation is far too long, you cannot gauge the motives and intentions of your interstellar pen pal reliably in any quick fashion due to the limit that lightspeed poses to such exchange, while someone may profess their good intent does not mean that it isn't actually a ruse to have you reveal your position first. Then there's the technological explosion, which can be sparked even from the mere fact that you're talking with them. While your counterpart may be incredibly behind you in terms of technology at the beginning of the contact, they may suddenly experience a breakthrough and a leap in technological advancement, and the more time passes, the more chances they have to attain technological parity or get close enough to it to pose a severe threat.
All the interstellar civilizations therefore operate with the mindset of hiding, and if you see someone, it's better to be the one to fire first, rather than risk them seeing you and giving you the bullet.
@@Nabekukka you said it yourself, "you can be fairly certain." Are you willing to bet your entire civilization on that? If you see them and you're reasonably sure they'll see you then I get it, you're gonna be in a fight. But if you know they didn't see you and by your axiom there could be technological explosions, what's to say they won't advance past you by the time your chosen civilization ending wmd gets there?
Again, if you see a weakling broadcasting his/ her location then wipe em out. But indiscriminate genocide seems very reckless.
Edit:
There's a chapter in deaths end where the book explains that if you can see another civilization it's only a matter of time before they can see you.
You can just give an attack and leave.But somethings your target will know who you are and where you come from, which could led to war( I remember the one who throw a 2d boom to the earth, his race is getting involved a war with another kind)
There are three axioms proscribed to the cosmic sociology that is kind of the prototype of the Dark Forest state in the book.
1. Survival is the primary need of civilization
2. Civilization continuously grows and expands, but the amount of matter in the universe remains constant
3. Chains of suspicion, which I can't put into a short sentence
In regards to 1 and 2, basically, on the time-scale of the universe, any other civilization, no matter how advanced or primitive, is a potential threat in the long-term. Even if they aren't hostile, the amount of matter in the universe is constant and if time goes on long enough, they are taking potential matter away from your civilization, which is a threat to their (LONG)long-term survival.
Chains of suspicion describes the unknowable nature of communicating with an unknown entity across such vast distances. You don't know if the other party is hostile or benevolent and the other party doesn't know if you are hostile or benevolent. Even if the other party tells you they are benevolent, you have no way to know. And the other party knows that you have no way to know. And you know that the other party has no way of knowing. And the other party knows that you know that they have no way of knowing if you know that they know. This loop can go on infinitely until one party decides to break the chain and doing so by deciding not to attack is such a massive, massive, massive risk (your entire civilization and star system could be destroyed) that the only responsible choice you have is to attack.
Because of the relative ease of which one can wipe out another civilization in the blink of an eye (contrasted with the difficulty of communicating back and forth), there is a huge bias towards first movers. Other civilizations might not even realize they're being attacked until their destroyed, as you don't need an object of much mass to wipe out a planet or star system if you move at relativistic speeds. They might literally not have enough time to respond -- which is the same problem your civilization would face if they discovered you and they decided to attack first. Hence, the logical move, if you are primarily concerned about the survival of your civilization and race, is to attack.
how could this book have been so hyped?
I'm also a gamer but I struggle to woo copulatable women. I'm 564lbs and believe I need to lose weight
this discussion was mid as hell. they made no interesting points just summarized like yeah i read the book say more than oh yeah this was cool
I hated cheng xin. Hers was an infuriating character
This book convinced me that there has to be a big crunch or CCC (Roger Penrose). Eternal expansion and death simply doesn't make sense.
“The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you” - Neil deGrasse Tyson
Excuse me, Star Trek is NOT hard Sci fi. It's silly Sci fi.
Let alone star wars lol
👍👍👍
None adults here :)
I know everyone loves these books...but theyre so full of illogic pretending to be logic. Especially it's core concepts
It's fiction.