BETHANY BEAL GETS INTERVIEWED BY ZELPH ON THE SHELF |Reaction to The Most Confusing Collab This Year
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
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It's lovely that Bethy said she doesn't want to force people to live a certain way, but that is pretty meaningless if she VOTES for people who ARE trying to legislate humanity.
Thank you for bringing up the fact that Bethany and Kristen don’t feel they need to apologize for the harm spewed by them and Girl Defined! I think that’s been overlooked by all of the discourse!
You were mentioned briefly in the Fundie Fridays stream with The New Evangelicals last night - I’d love a conservation between you and Tim about how we should approach deconstructing Christians who have done a lot of harm online
What harm has deconstruction caused? Deconstruction is reanalyzing the harms of evangelicalism.
@@danielclingen34I am not the original poster but how I read the harm deconstructing christians have done refers to people like Dave, who supported /helped girl defined, but now are moving away from those beliefs. How to navigate supporting someone moving away from fundamentalist Christianity while not letting them off the hook for their earlier homophobia / sexism/ etc.
@@danielclingen34I mean someone who caused harm before entering deconstruction, how can they repair the harm
@@kelsey8059exactly!
Absolutely! That was a great convo and his wife Sarah seemed to really be more knowledgeable of you, but regardless it was great to see all the support for B Haney in the chat!!!
When Bethany talked about LGBTQ+ issues it seemed to me that she believes queer people exist and they should be loved, BUT they will never be as happy, never have as much "abundance" never be "fulfilled" to the degree of a cis heterosexual person. So it feels to me like her "love" is rooted in pity at best and the belief that being queer is a choice (thus the emphasis on inaction). As a queer person this didn't satisfy me one bit.
💯%. Thank you for this insight. My cousin follows their content so I appreciate the heads up behead of times.
I agree with that analysis and I think that the views she expressed were not progressive at all, but for Tanner and Sam who previously held homophobic views as mormons they were a lot more charitable about what she said because want to believe she will eventually change her views to be more accepting just as they have
It didn’t seem like that long ago that Bethany made a fairly hateful video re : drag shows that was pretty awful-- I feel like she thought she was sugarcoating her views
I’m lgbt too but honestly I am just glad to see progress. Doing a total 180 would be surprising and unbelievable, I think now that she is more open minded that it will improve over time.
It’s interesting that Bethy will say she lacked compassion and yet won’t apologize for any of the stuff she said when she acknowledged that
I bet if she does apologize, it’ll be when she stops fsoonf girl defined entirely. It would be hard to apologize and keep the channel running ya know?
As a queer person, I find Bethany’s justification of her homophobia infuriating. To me she’s saying “I don’t think gay people are bad but sex should be within marriage and marriage should be between a man and a woman.” And then her basically saying you can be gay and celibate because she could have had a fulfilling life if she never found a life partner. Like ok Bethany. But you COULD find a partner. Gay people can’t change their orientation, so if they can’t find a life partner and can’t experience deep emotional and physical intimacy, how is that kind? How does that allow any hope for queer people? It’s cruel and wrong. And her saying she believes because she’s seen that’s the best way to have a prosperous and fulfilled life, no. Christians love to tell people there is only one way to be happy and that’s the way they determined. It’s just deeply upsetting to me.
While I respect the opinions of everyone who feels as if Zelf was being too easy on Bethany, I disagree.
Most studies into changing people's opinions show that hitting them with logical arguments and asking difficult questions are some of the worst ways to change opinions, particularly initially. Listening with empathy, telling stories, and giving examples are much more likely to be effective.
Bethany is just starting deconstruction; Dave hasn't been at it that long either. It will take them both some time to figure out what they think about things/construct a new world view, and then it will take even longer for Bethany to realize that she caused harm (if she ever gets there). Once she is there, sure, she should definitely apologize, but she is just at the just starting to give herself permission to question stage.
I think Zelf is doing good here; they are allowing any die hard girl defined fans to see someone express doubts and see it being met with kindness and empathy rather than attack. That goes against everything people on a fundamentalist bubble are taught about the outside world and can be so powerful.
For perspective on biases, I was raised fundamentalist Christian and still have a lot of family in that bubble; I follow Zelf on the Shelf but am neither a huge fan nor patron.
❤
YES! the same reason that you don't need to be mean to the people who door knock for JW. they've been taught to expect that. you being snippy doesn't help them realize the harm their church causes, it reaffirms their victim complex. just be kind, politely decline or don't engage if you don't feel up for it, and move on with your day. it's hard to believe "apostates HATE us" when all the people you knock on the doors of politely say they aren't interested but offer you a glass of water because it's hot out.
Sam was not raised Mormon, she converted at 17 and deconstructed at 21.
oh... that changes things for sure
@@jusagosia lot of times people that convert are super hardcore in, even more so then people raised who take their faith as a given.
WFTW: I've been disabled for years, and I FINALLY met with someone who will be sending someone to my home for 11 hours a week!!! We'll start in a few days, and it's such a relief to actually have the professional help I need. 😊
That's wonderful! I'm sorry it's taken so long!
Also, Dave's emphasis on "CONSENSUAL" specifically in regards to LGBTQ+ relationships was annoying and gave me the same vibe i got when Bethany took the conversation to pdfiles out of nowhere. Obviously a relationship being consensual is the #1 most important thing but that's the case in ALL RELATIONSHIPS. Hetero, homo, etc. Idk if I'm explaining my thoughts well but it rubbed me the wrong way.
I haven’t gotten there in the video yet but even without, I still get your point queen. 🤙🏽
@@lindseyhendrix2405 thank you! Much love 💙
Yes, i can see that. It makes you worry what they think about hetero conscent.
However one of the arguments often given for individual choice is what happens between consenting adults as long as it doesn't harm whats your problem.
It could be him learning to talk about it 20-30 years after the rest if the community who have moved onto needing to reafirm what consent is and to discussions have developed.
I hope its just clumsy exploration but I'm not certain its that clean
I agree that felt like a dog whistle to me. It felt very rooted in the homophobic trope that gay people prey on minors to “recruit” them.
I absolutely agree! Especially his hyperfocus on the definition of "harm." It makes me think that there's some part of him that is still afraid of queer people and/or the topic in general and is trying to dance around that fact instead of fully facing it. I wish Sam and Tanner had pushed him on what he means by "harm" and what his concerns currently are even if he's still grappling with it, because I'm still struggling to think of what he could mean besides all the gross and antiquated myths that are out there.
I definitely agree with you that it seems that Bethany needs time to process all that's going on with her and the world and future she thought she'd have. I do think it's good that some people can establish these connections and have these conversations with kindness, because I think it does help bring people out of fundamentalism, and I know that I am not in that same sort of place, I can't really extend that level of kindness, I don't think. Not yet. My religious trauma is very connected to my queerness and watching that part of the conversation had me crying, literally, because it was just such a reminder of all that I suffered with my own church growing up. Only now, as a fully grown adult, can I really start to dip my toes back into my faith and religion, and I still resent all the hate that took from me something that was so important to me for over a decade.
I am with you! People need to feel safe to exploring stepping outside of their fundamentalist beliefs so i think it’s super important that they have this relationship where Dav and Bethany feel supported in their current journey. I guess just looking at it from a content perspective adds a layer of complexity. I wouldn’t want Sam and Tanner to try and hold Bethany’s feet to the fire for an hour and expect something good to come out of it but I do think an important part of deconstructing and rebuilding one’s beliefs, whatever they end up being, is understanding where they had beliefs that were harmful and may have hurt others and really sitting with that for a bit instead of just brushing them under the rug.
And I am so sorry for what you went through and the years that were taken from you. I hope you are healing well and know that who you are is so worthy and amazing!! 💛
@@BHaney I think the thing is though... in order to realize and truly recognize the harm your former beliefs did, you have to go through that deconstruction process. Bethany likely has no conception (yet - hopefully) of how harmful her past actions have been. She's still wrestling with the theology.
She probably still thinks she's doing the work of the lord, but to me it doesn't sound like she's done deconstructing. So I'm not saying that everyone needs to be her friend (I don't think I could personally), but if someone can be a friend to her and help move her left by genuinely sharing the truth, more power to them. Friends and kind voices who cared for me were what pulled me out of evangelicalism, I'm just not to a point where that's something I can offer. If someone else can, I love that.
It sucks to feel like someone isn't facing consequences, I get it completely. The truth is that she may never face the consequences in a way that makes other people feel she's done the work. Which sucks, and will always suck.
That said, anyone who helps de-radicalize fundy extremists, is doing the work of whatever god there is in my opinion. And publicly helping de-radicalize someone with a large following?? HELL yes.
We're still staring down the Trump barrel with no idea what's going to happen next year. The more people who de-radicalize, the better. The more publicly they do it for all to see them, the better.
I think all the feelings on the left, and from ex-evangelicals and ex-fundies are valid af, but I also think fundy christians have a strangle hold on politics in this country and every little bit helps.
I think Bethany has shown real vulnerability and bravery this past year, letting us in on her inner struggles with Dav deconstructing and how its affected her, we really didnt need to know that as its extremely private. I think its important to remember deconstructing can take years, even changing harmful viewpoints can take 5 or 6 years depending on how long it takes you to get away from only being in a fundamentalist bubble. I think give Bethany some time, we cant expect 5+ years of change over night it sounds like shes only just at the very beginning of this very (for her) scary journey of questioning things. Hopefully they can continue to have friendships and open conversations with people like Zelph and others with different viewpoints that will let Bethany know deconstructing doesnt have to be this scary taboo thing, that it can be safe, and full of learning and love. Hopefully it continues and she can continue to grow ans become more open minded. Obviously retracting and apologising for harmful views shes taught on the internet would be the most healing outcome for all, one we should hope for. I just think it could take a long time and im personally, as an outside observer bisexual girly, celebrating even small steps in the right direction.
My win for the week is that my step-sister, whom I was estranged from for a few years, has recently gotten back in my life with her kids. I got to participate in some last day of school celebrations with her and the kiddos. It was really special and fun. I got a little choked up.
Aw yay! Love hearing that, Aunty! I'm adopted but found my half-sister several years ago. I just got to be the first human to babysit their new baby, and I'm so grateful to be in their lives. His "my Auntie is the best" onsie got me choked up similarly. Hope things stay lovely in between yall! ❤
Congratulations! That's an awesome win! 💕
A few thoughts Bethy seeming to over-share, and still saying the usual Girl Defined stuff:
- She grew up in a church environment that probably encouraged over sharing under the guise of prayer requests and accountability. Additionally, she’s been online/in the public eye long enough and gone through so many stages of maturing on camera that she might not realize how much she’s sharing. From experience, learning boundaries around how much you share is HARD when you’ve grown up like that.
- GD isn’t just Bethany. It’s also Kristen, I think other family members, and others. It’s functionally a family business. We don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes. For her to quit GD would drastically change GD, and more than likely cost her family, livelihood, and possibly even personal identity. That’s a hell of a lot to walk away from.
HOWEVER, I’m not excusing the problematic that she’s said and still says. I believe hurt that happens in public needs to be apologized for in public. But it sounds like Bethy is in the midst of a changing situation and mindset that sounds extremely difficult and chaotic.
As someone who was in ministry and did much of my deconstruction in 7 months right after realizing I’m queer, I can really empathize. I wasn’t in the public eye, and it was still challenging. It takes time, and I hope she’s able to find space offline to do the work for real change.
I actually don't mind Zelp asking for donations at all. Whether they have other jobs alongside RUclips or this is their only source of income, I believe people should be compensated for their work. I see making youtube videos that people find value in as work. RUclips (the company) is not going to pay them for what they are bringing on the platform so I understand that they are reaching out to their viewers. I also don't feel like they are pushing the donations on anyone too much. Yes, they are promoting their patreon heavily but usually with an caveat "if you can afford it".
EDIT:
About the money to pay taxes. Maybe it's because I don't live in the US but I wasn't bother by their asking either. Things happen and I'm very used to people helping each other out financially even on the internet. I see it as a 'mutual aid' thing. I don't think Zelp is a company trying to hoard profit, I see them as two creators trying to pay their bills. So why not help each other out in this era which is financially difficult for most of us.
Thank you for this. Honestly, the idea of people "funding your habit" felt like it's coming from a huge place of privilege, IMHO. I mean, yes, It's great to have additional sources of income, but also, given the overall pay-suppression in the U.S. (i.e., pay rates not keeping up with inflation), it's nearly impossible to work an entry-level job somewhere that actually allows for not living paycheck-to-paycheck...let alone one that would fund buying microphones, paying editors, etc. for producing RUclips content. Given the general unfriendliness of the algorithm for smaller creators and the fact that RUclips can change it's pay rates for advertising at any time, I think it's totally fair to ask for Patreon and/or Kofi support with the caveat that it's for people who can afford it/want to support the channel -- and if there's transparency re: what the support allows them to do.
Storytime: I gave up on becoming a full-time professional performer (theater actor/singer) before Patreon & Venmo existed, but man! If I could've gotten a little extra support for voice lessons, travel money to auditions, etc. from audience members for my shows (or from internet followers--if that had existed back then), I would've jumped on that in a heartbeat! Even before the 2008 economic crash, working full-time at an entry-level job didn't pay my bills PLUS all the expenses I had to continue my training/support my performance goals. I ended up hitting a wall of major burn-out (hence the moving away from it) because I was working full-time, providing singing/piano lessons after my shifts, and then going to training courses, practicing/auditioning after that; around 14+ hour workdays 6-7 days per week for a little over 10 years. Some of my colleagues, however, who had the privilege of financial support and/or safety nets (e.g., family and/or spouses supporting them) were able to keep going and have a decent career just from being able to consistently plug away at it for a decade or so WITHOUT working 14 hours a day. As a former professional performer, that comment just triggered the feeling of "Oh! You want to actually get PAID to sing at my [insert life event and/or venue here]???? You must just be in it for the money and not for the love of the art!" *gag noises*
Sorry for the rant/info-dump, but honestly. it's totally unfair to expect people to hit some level of societal-defined "success" before we stop calling content creation and/or artistic/creative endeavors "hobbies."
That's not to say that some people totally game the system and ask for donations, etc. just for the extra money, but that's the whole point -- it's up to the person to donate/give extra if they feel the content is worth it. That bit of extra money can really help with producing more content (by hiring editors as needed, etc.) and reducing creator burnout. Our society has really never supported alternative careers to the 9-to-5 as well as we should, and it's great that the internet now provides more opportunities for us all to support each other and to support the content we want to see.
I think it's maybe more about the accountability. Patron donations have a set return in content or perks, but sending money to a PayPal or Venmo you don't have any way to know what it's being used for. That would be my issue with using those platforms for accepting donations.
I agree. As long as creators aren’t lying about where the money is going or guilt tripping their audience
THANK YOU for calling out how Bethany and Kristen explicitly stated that they will never apologize! I watched Zelph's first reaction to this 24 hours video and they just so happened to leave that part out of their reaction. That video (the initial 24 hours with GD reaction video of Zelph's) was incredibly off-putting as well. To sum it up, in the words of Maya Angelou, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."
As someone who’s been deconstructing fundamental Christianity over the past 4ish years, the MOST important parts of that process for me were having total privacy and no pressure to come to conclusions.
I had to work so hard to even say out loud to my therapist, “I don’t know what I believe.” And that’s where I’ve remained for years- this is a SLOW process for many people.
Trying to go through that process publicly seems like it could massively increase how upsetting and untethering it is to begin with.
I know Bethany probably doesn’t know how to function without sharing online, since it’s been her whole life. But I think that, if she doesn’t take this process offline, it’s going to prolong or amplify how hard this journey can be.
While I agree with you that privacy can be really helpful in this process, I actually really respect that she is sharing this publicly specifically because of how much of her life has been online.
From what I know of Bethany prior to this year is that she, and others in her community, as well as, her online followers have viewed deconstruction as something like a magic box that looks something like:
“Good” Christian -> ???? --> Satan Following Liberal
The silence that many people in the middle area feel they are obligated to keep during deconstruction reinforces this mystery, in my opinion.
They can’t stand in front of the box because “Good Christian” no longer means to them what it used to. At the same time, they cannot stand behind the box because they probably don’t identify with the “satan following liberal” label they’ve been taught is at the other end, and they probably don’t want to end up there either. If those of us who have come out the other side don’t take the time to listen to people where they’re at while they are still in the middle of figuring out what they believe if not what they’ve always been taught because we do not agree with them then how do people get to the other side?
Insisting this happen in private isolates people who have likely been very plugged into a community prior to their deconstruction.
Furthermore, Bethany needs to do this publicly because I think those stuck on the fundamentalist end of things need to see that questioning your beliefs and learning why you think something isn’t something scary and only done by those who do not take their faith seriously. Wherever she ends up, especially if it is a place of reparation for the pain she has caused, will be more meaningful to those who have previously learned from and supported her more hateful messages if they are able to see how she got there.
While I genuinely hope that one day Bethany does apologize for the hateful things she has done and said, she is not yet ready to apologize. We cannot and should not force her to be there, but neither should we expect her to be silent about her journey just because she is still in the middle.
We do not have to forgive her, we do not have to engage with her content, but we cannot isolate her from people who are willing to listen to her and challenge her as Tanner and Sam have done in this video.
From what I've seen from Bethany and even Kristen in the past is that they are kind of two faced. They'll be nice to your face and condemn you behind your back
Yeah, I remember the issues between Brenda (God is Grey) and K/B a few years back. It was pretty icky behavior.
@@charityzimmerman4529 yeah I remember that. It was really gross and mean spirited.
They have done exactly that! They’ll place nice in person but what they say in videos and behind closed doors can have a very different tone.
I remember the channel God is Grey and Girl Defined used a clip of her at one of her conferences and in front of the crowd dismissed her as a Christian. As far as I know they never apologized to her about this. It's so annoying how Zelph and Anti Bot have given Bethany a pass despite her not wanting to take accountability.
I am a fan of Zelph, but it does bother me a little that they were trying to raise money for their equipment and it still sounds like they recorded audio on a potato
My win for the week is my casual temp job turning into an ongoing adult job with responsibilities and a laniard. I’m terrified and excited because this would be an amazing forever day job!
Congratulations! That is an amazing first feeling. 🎉
I appreciate you talking about how being nice isn't enough. I have been having some misgivings about all of the good press that the FundieSnark community has been showing to people who are still problematic and wouldn't hesitate to vote against my rights to exist openly as an LGBTQ person. The only reason why Bethany is even having an ounce of compassion about deconstruction is because now it's in HER household. Conservatives never practice empathy for anyone until it affects them.
I wouldn't say that's just a conservative thing, it can also be a human trait. At 28 I'm only just learning how to be a little altruistic in my worldview because I admit, I'm an incredibly selfish person at my core. I think of my own needs first, and everyone else's comes secondary. I'm trying to undo a lot of this via therapy but I wouldn't put the concept of altruism vs selfishness as an inherently conservative thing. It's a human thing, rather than a political thing, and even someone voting more left-liberal can still be a selfish person at their core personality.
I thought this convo was so surface and generic, that it didn't even keep my attention. No difficult questions .. I'd rather just see more Dav & Bethany banter on their own videos.
Yeah I liked the video Dav and Bethany did by themselves about this more, it felt more genuine.
Agreed, I kept leaving the room while they were talking but didn't feel like I missed much. Plus, the editing and sound quality don't seem great on their part.
I think Dav misses the point that you don't get to dictate what someone else's life is "for", or what harms another person. I think he has some more deconstructing to do... and is it just me, or was the audio not very good (Bethany sounded fuzzy) and the conversation very scattered? Honestly, I think outside of a vague "we're going to chat about deconstruction"... none of them knew what they were there for.
And Zelph's constant begging for money is just... yes, I have a Patreon. No, I don't constantly (or ever, actually) ask people to join it. And then a Costa Rica trip on top of that??
It sounds to me like their channel is a cash grab, which makes this collab make sense - they saw Bethany and Dav were getting a lot of attention, so they decided to try and capitalize on that. That's also how I feel about Bethany's "deconstruction" - she wants the praise for ~maybe~ deconstructing.... but she doesn't want to look at her prior actions and think about how they hurt people. She'll flirt with deconstructing for the attention, but I honestly don't expect anything to change. For that matter, Dav's own deconstruction sounds a bit shallow.
I feel a bit bad for commenting on something that is so personal, but then I remind myself that they are the ones who, for some reason, decided to make this very public.
In other news, I'm a killjoy. :)
ETA: Doubly skeptical because Girl Defined just released their membership program... how are they going to teach these monthly workshops if they fundamentally disagree about a topic? And if Bethany is going through a crisis of faith, why is she leading a faith-based membership program?
If you’re a killjoy then I’m in good company because you said a lot of the things I felt! The audio was not good. I feel like there were a lot of parts of the convo I missed simply because I could not hear them. There’s nothing wrong with being a small channel that can’t afford super high quality equipment but I feel like they should have evaluated their limits when deciding how to do this collaboration from a technical perspective! I get that they wanted to do it in person - maybe they figured the emotional connection would be better that way - but this video format did not work and I think it took away from the impact of the conversation.
Also I need to start paying more attention bc I had no idea they launched a membership. Yeahhhh that clouds this whole thing. You’re right, she mentioned being in a really different place in terms of faith than Kristen is so I wonder what the membership looks like and how she feels comfortable charging people for that while she is in a position of having to figure a lot of new things out.
I agree here with the membership and for Bethany to take some time to really evaluate her beliefs, and not capitalize on being unsure.
I will say though, speaking for Dav, I don’t think he was giving a specific answer, but he was just putting it out there that different groups and people have different opinions about the point of human existence. And because of that he pointed out that different groups define harm differently.
@FeministCatLadySpinster You may be applying that in both of those cases, it is whatever someone wants their life purpose to be, but that is your worldview. I do believe there are objective stances on harm, and the purpose of humans that is worth reflecting on :)
Dave sounded in this video like I am sure I did after freshly leaving the faith and taking a Philosophy 101 course...sir, not everything needs to be dissected through a (typically straight, cis, white, male) philosophical lens.
@@ashes1215 Dav's moral philosophy tangent was so hard to follow, holy crap.
The audio was garbage. I thought it was my pos phone at first. But then I realized I could hear B perfectly.
I love zelph, but I love seeing critical opinions of them!! I don’t see that perspective often!!! Always down to hear the other side, because I lowkey agree with the money thing 😮😬
I've had a hard time with this collab. I love Zelph on the Shelf, I have paid for their patreon for over a year. When I saw the clip of Bethany saying they wouldn't apologize for Girl Defined's bad takes in the past even if their ideas have changed I decided to stop paying for their patreon. Sam also called Bethany an angel in a post before the video was uploaded. How can you call someone an angel when they're so hateful to so many people? It gave me the ick.
I was watching a video of theirs, and they said they have been called the "Paul and Morgan of deconstruction" by other ex LDS, and it made me really uncomfortable, I couldn't watch their content after that.
In terms of Zelph on the Shelf generally, Ive always appreciated their compassion for others, which I think comes through in this video.
But I am also concerned about their management of their channel and income. I think they quit their day jobs expecting that if they worked on the channel full time, their income from the channel would increase, and maybe they haven't seen the increase necessary to be sustainable. But instead of reevaluating that decision theyre begging for money.
My understanding with the tax situation is that they underestimated how much it would be because they used to get tax refunds on their income from their jobs.
However, that does feel like they poorly researched the impact of them going full time and were not putting aside the 30% recommended.
It also concerned me that they were asking for money for this trip, while asking for money for the tax bill, AND advertising the Costa Rica trip.
I do appreciate their content, but I do think they need to consider how best to take their content forward without needing to beg for money.
I tried to watch this on my own but got so bored and confused, I was happy that you helped keep my brain on track ❤️
New Evangelicals were on a Fundie Friday live stream, and they all mentioned you positivity at the beginning of the stream. I was so happy.
This interview was kind of funny to me personally because as someone who has spent some time in the LDS church my experience was that everyone tried so hard to be nice that nothing of substance could ever be discussed. It wasn't until later, I learned that you can be honest but still polite, and being honest and open actually create closer, more genuine conversations and relationships than tip-toeing around everything all the time. I'm not sure if it was awkwardness, lack of organization, or that leftover LDS energy that was the problem, or maybe just me. But I felt this same nice awkwarness throughout. I get not wanting to argue, but you can still ask or address more difficult topics or past statements. They could at the very least ask more interesting questions in an organized way.
your hair looks great! my win for the week is finishing the first year of my maths degree!
Thank you!
And congratulations, that’s amazing 🎉
Just on the question about Sam's background. She's was not raised Mormon, I think either her parents were agnostic or just not engaged in Christianity. She is from UK where that's common. She had Mormon friends in highschool and through them she met Mormon missionaries and was converted, and then she applied to and was accepted to attend BYU Idaho, a Mormon college, and that's where she met Tanner, who was raised a Mormon.
I don't know why, but it still kind of blows my mind that there are Mormons in the UK. It feels like such a distinctly American religion to me that I wouldn't think people outside of the US would really be able to connect with it.
Can we also PLEASE talk about the influencer led trip thing?? I’ve seen them pop up but not many people have talked about it.
It is one of the top things that bugs me. Trova trips are appealing for a lot of "influencers" because they get to have a say in the price of the trip and therefore how much profit they get to take home. That's one of Trova's selling points. Zelph literally said in one of their videos "we won't even be able to go on the trip if you guys don't sign up, but we know not everyone can afford it". Apparently they were talking about themselves too.
It’s hard to see how this Bethy actually exists within two months of the one with the Porgan collab. It seems much more like she is doing lip service to Zelph or both. How can she say to porgan stuff like ‘they want us apologizing and raising rainbow flags’ in such a disgusted tone, and then a short while later tell us ‘oh I would love my child and their person if they were gay and I love YOU tanner’. Because if you truly loved anyone who was gay (or any LGBTQIA+ but bethy is still struggling with gay so let’s not confuse her) then you would understand simply not personally supporting/voting for laws that outlaw LGBTQIA+ topics and issues and people is not enough. To just withhold your vote is not going to protect us. That is barely considered tolerance, not *love*. Do you want a cookie for not supporting hate crime and discriminatory laws? Do you want ‘the gays’ to forget the HATEFUL and DISGUSTED articles you wrote under the ministry name you continue to choose to operate under, just because they are 5 years in the past?
I think if either bethy or kristen had stopped and gone ‘you know, we are rebranding and starting a new website and channel because honestly- the opinions we have voiced on girl defined no longer align with us today, and we want to separate ourselves from that and start fresh.’ But they haven’t, they as recently as the Porgan collaboration refused to apologize for ANYTHING even though they clearly have taken down old blog posts and videos they no longer want the public to see- the only apology I’ve seen is the one time they implied a SA survivor was just as sexually broken and as sinful as the rest of us. It is one of the many things I struggle to understand about modern Christians in the US- Jesus was a pretty humble dude. The Bible talks a lot about self reflection and improving yourself and not being prideful and not being monetarily driven and all this wonderful stuff. Yet GD is incredibly prideful and refuses to reconsider or learn or love honestly and not from a holier than thou perspective. I don’t know how they can be reading the same verses and stories that I grew up hearing.
I’m only at 1:14:08 but it’s just frustrating to hear them talk out of both sides of their mouth. Couldn’t wait until the end to vent 😅
I think Bethany is feeling a lot of cognitive dissonance about her religious beliefs. Her entire persona is tied up in not just being a perfect Christian, but also in telling others how to be like her. She and Dav would do better to stop doing interviews and deconstruct (or “untangle”) their beliefs with a few trusted people instead of all of RUclips. I think her views are changing but it will take a while to get to the point of owning the harm she did. I’m glad no one interviewed me in the early days of my deconstruction!
The language that Dav uses as he speaks about harm, human nature, and kind of the 'purpose' of humanity is very striking and seems to be a way for him to lend legitimacy to queerphobic beliefs instead of acknowledging that they are false and bigoted. He starts that section talking about learning how to navigate a pluralistic society and then explains the queerphobic perspective as simply a difference in definition of harm and human nature/purpose. which builds this idea that queerphobic people should be taken just as seriously as queer people themselves when negotiating the terms of queer existence. It really feels like hes stuck in the middle of the road. He wants to "celebrate" and "accept" us but also reinforces our oppression at the same time.
Not to mention that anytime the term "human nature" mingles with minorities it's not good. People claim it was in black people's natures to be servile, people claim it's in Jewish people's natures to be liars, etc etc. I really hope he hasn't found some heavily alt right "philosophy" to learn from
First, my win for the week: I don't normally share because my wins usually feel so minor that they don't feel worth sharing, but as of this last week I can finally say that I'm a published author! This book in particular I've been working on on and off since I was 18, so it was a bit of a bittersweet moment to let those characters go and release them into the world for other people to meet. But I'm so proud that it's done and it's out there and I get to say "I'm an author" without feeling like it has to be "I'm an (unpublished) author."
As for the video, I know Bethany framed her being so emotional positively, but just from the things that made her cry in this video, I'm hesitant to agree. I mean, obviously, I'm not in her head, but it sounds more to me like she's still very much mourning the vision she had for her life and her beliefs. I honestly kind of wish people would leave her out of Dav's deconstruction, at least for a bit. It's not about her. It's about Dav. The ethics of giving her a platform in a space where she's done so much damage aside, she's still a person who needs the space to deal with such a MASSIVE shift that's happening in her life. I don't know, just I've never felt for her until this video and seeing how emotional she was. It felt like I was starting to see glimpses of the real Bethy for the first time and it kind of made me want to protect her a little. Like, this woman is going through something huge, leave her alone and let her process everything in her own time. If anyone's going to help Bethy to figure out her faith, let it be her HUSBAND, not people on the internet who are essentially strangers to her.
Also ppl were excited for this colab because Zelph have been critiquing Girl Defined for a while and Dav had finally acknowledged their presence so they did a collab. I don’t think they would have had the same viewership if they just did a Zoom call…
What purpose are these mics having….?! 😅
I love your take on bethy crying over missing time with dav. And I actually hadn't thought of that, and i think you're spot on. I also really felt what bethy was saying in that moment. When you have little kids, your relationship changes. And sometimes you just need that alone time with your person. Just one on one without stress. And thats hard to get. And a huge reason marriages fall apart, in my opinion. You get so wrapped up in your day to day and work, kids, house, etc etc. You need that affection and time to love on your partner and just RELAX.
I'm a Zelph fan and definitely donated to facilitate the conversation. I chose to do that because I honestly dislike the scrutiny people put on "platforming" - Bethany has an audience. She has a platform. Zelph aren't running defense for her and Dav, they are trying to have an open dialogue and spread understanding and present to both Bethany and her audience that deconstruction isn't some evil thing and that leaving religion, or interacting with those who aren't religious, doesn't need to be a big deal. I see this as an attempt to break through some of the reactionary divisiveness that Christians feel, especially the ones who watch channels like Girl Defined, towards non-Christians. And I get frustrated by people who don't want these conversations to happen. I have religious family, and I try to move them on issues, but I can only do so much. They, and others, also have a lot to benefit from in seeing someone they respect, and know they agree with, talk this out and be friendly with people of opposing views.
That being said, totally valid to be concerned over the trip, I side eye that a bit too lol. And some of the other financials. I'm pretty sure part of it was that they only recently started content creation full time, and quit their other jobs to do so, but don't quote me! As I don't know them personally, obviously. Appreciate that you are trying to go in as unbiased as possible, I'm only in the first 20 minutes now but am looking forward to seeing what you make of it. Just wanted to share some initial things.
Win for the week - I got some supplies to finally get to work on the yard! Tomorrow is the day! Very excited for it
I take it that Bethany's position seems to be love the sinner, hate the sin. The video didn't get into tough issues and stayed surface with the generic topic of love- loving oneself and loving others who may not follow the same path as you. I think it was a bit too early for this video until Bethany and Dav have time to really think about this and solidify their positions. Dav if you read this, please collab with Tim at TNE!
I don’t really get why this video is getting so much praise on their channel… I agree with B, I’m also completely confused about the point of the video, why the audio is so terrible, etc.
Agreed! I was so glad to see B’s coverage because I couldn’t get through it myself
i have watched some of their content before and i originally assumed the costa rica trip was a joke making fun of Britney Dawns similar retreats, it’s very odd to me that they would accept that deal
i think they’re small content creators who are getting bigger and need to clean up their act now, they seem like their hearts are in the right place tho idk
The trip is definitely odd. That’s something a lot of MLMers and former mommy vloggers do so the general reputation of Trova Trips isn’t great 😬
There seems to be a trend for 'going on a trip with YT creators. This is very red flag for me - that the creator is committed to a several day trip with whoever spends the money to join them - stalker alert! But my understanding is that these tours are through certain companies and the creator gets to go free funded by others. And if the others only attend because of that creator then yes there is logic to them getting a free ride.
But it all seems a cash grab by the tour companies and using content creators to do the recruiting. Given the size of US I get that airfares are not included as could vary so much. In UK a group could say they include airfare but only from London area airports, and travel to London is personal. But we are physically tiny compared to US.
@@helenr4300 yea! that’s why i don’t understand why content creators would go for it, a week spent with strangers who think they know me but don’t sounds like a horror movie
@@helenr4300 the Trova trip isn't even just a free ride for Zelph, they have some sort of say in how expensive it is for their supporters and therefore they have a say in the profit they themselves (Zelph) get to take home. That's one of the appeals for "influencers", not only do they get a free trip, they can make money in the process.
Sam's interview on the Mormon Stories Podcast is really good and gets into depth about this. She converted as a teenager and went to BYU only to eventually go through deconstructing her faith.
Long time watcher of Zelf, and someone who’s in their Patreon here, as far as I’m aware are Tanner is bi/pansexual, polyamorous, and as you said, uses he/they pronouns, and Sam was a Mormon convert as a teen who came to the US for school, and that’s where her and Tanner met.
Edit with my thoughts:
100% valid criticism on the trip, both because I didn’t realize that the price tag was without flights (though to be fair, I wasn’t planning to go so I hadn’t looked at any of the details) and I can very much recognize how sketch a lot of influencer meet and greet trips can be, but I’m not super educated on that topic, so I don’t have a super strong opinion on that.
And for the fundraising and tax bill bit, while I do think they probably should have taken more precautions and been better prepared, I can see how people might mess up on taxes with how the US tax system works, especially with Sam being from the UK, where taxes are much less complex. As far as fundraising in general, I don’t see the way they do it as all that different from how many other pages run, outside of using Sam’s Venmo, which I do remember people in some lives expressing interest in having access to someone’s Venmo to send superchats/donations without Patreon or RUclips taking a cut, and their Patreon is different in it doesn’t have set price levels, and instead is $1+ for all the content on there.
As far as the reason behind the colab, etc. as far as I have seen and heard in the Patreon chat (which mind you, I’m just a member, I don’t represent Sam, Tanner, Zelf as a whole, or anyone else involved) it seems that the intention was, at least to some level, practice empathy as formerly extremely religious people who recognize how important it is to provide that space for people who are starting to branch beyond that mindset, but it doesn’t seem the intent was in any way to minimize the damage girl define has done.
Basically, from my perspective at least, it doesn’t seem they wanted to remove responsibility, more so give them a space to be heard out, and empathized with, because while not everyone has to be completely jazzed about this, or have to interact at all with anyone involved, for anything to get better some people are going to have the role of holding people accountable at the appropriate time for it, and some people have the role of doing the emotional labor to help people grow, also at appropriate times, so hopefully one day they can recognize their wrongs, and feel safe to do the work needed for that growth.
Overall I did enjoy watching this vid, and also very much hope that one day girl defined will come out with an apology for the hurt they have caused, but I really do think they should only apologize when they have had the time to process more, have done more work on themselves, and are sure what things they no longer hold true, because an apology before they are at that point wouldn’t be honest or helpful, and it wouldn’t mean as much. (I say this all as someone who is queer, and mixed Japanese and Jewish, and aware of many of girl defined and fam’s controversies.)
(Also sorry this is such a long comment, this was a super long vid with lots of topics, I did try to break it up so it wasn’t one massive block of text tho)
Thank you so much for adding all your thoughts and some of the backstory on Sam and Tanner!
As for the fundraising, at the end of the day if people want to donate money to them that’s totally fine and then asking for donations isn’t something that would cause me to immediately write them off, there were just certain parts of how they presented it that gave me pause. The asking for donations to pay for taxes is what really gets me for some reason though lol. I just looked at how long they’ve been doing this and it looks like their channel started 7 years ago with a lot of those original videos having 20k plus views so, to me, it seems like they’ve been monetized for awhile and should be pretty well prepared for the amount that’ll be expected come tax tjme. But maybe I just have that perspective because of my own life experiences and work history so I’m trying not to be too critical on that. Again, if people feel good about donating and it helps the Zelph channel then it’s a win-win for the people involved.
Also your opinion on their approach totally makes sense. I do think it’s important for people to feel heard and welcomed when they do branch out from their rigid, religious mindset and I am glad Sam and Tanner seemed to be able to provide that! I do wonder though if this was the best way to have those conversations. I think they could have formed a connection and developed a relationship without making a collab initially. I would have loved to see Dav and Beth work through some of the initial groundwork offline and then maybe 6+ months from now, seen a collab where they talked about what that looked like and the role Sam and Tanner played in making them feel like they were free to take the necessary room to evaluate their beliefs/deconstruct. I feel like that would have been super impactful!
@@BHaneyTotally agree with taking more time in forming an offline-connection before doing an online collab
To be fair, certain tax write offs and tax structures have changed multiple times in the past few years. Maybe they should have kept current with things, but didn’t? Or maybe did their own taxes and made some mistakes? I have no clue. Either way, taxes in the US are way more complicated than they need to be, even without structures changing.
@@bebel0ck@BHaney I do think that’s why it’s good they at least flew there and spent some time getting to know each other personally, as opposed to zoom, which you pointed out at the beginning of the video would have saved money. I don’t think a zoom conversation with it the personal interactions would have been the same or as meaningful.
@@plantlady7394 yeah, that was the other thing I was going to say, I do think sometimes the kinds of conversations that they seemed to be wanting to have weren’t ones that would be as comfortable or natural over video call, especially with not having met in person before
Thanks for this. I think I've been kind of too into the idea of giving Bethany grace and hoping she's moving, even if slowly, away from some of her more harmful beliefs. To some extent, it's good to give people grace and hope for change, but it definitely needs to be more tempered by the harm they have done and continue to do. And I have never known where to stand on Zelph on a Shelf because coaching just gives me such ick because for the most part it involves doing things that cross into areas where only professionals should go. Plus, I get the feeling they're into the pseudoscience side of the internet, which worries me.
I wish everyone peace and happiness, wherever they may find it. For myself as a former fundamentalist Christian, now an atheist with no faith, my life is richer, more beautiful, peaceful, loving and meaningful--and continues to become more so as the years pass, and I focus on LOVE, real love. Love is where it's at.
re what bethany was saying about her and her sister having differing thoughts on gf...i think it would be cool if thry made gd a platform where they actually discuss where they differ and are bkth growing and changing their views.
My win for the week is I just got news that I won't have to have open heart surgery! Because of an undiagnosed childhood illness, I recently found out at the age of 44 I had a busted heart valve and they were certain I would have to have open heart surgery, but recently they said instead I should just have a clamp put in to repair the valve which means only a one day heart procedure they repair through a vein. Way less invasive and far easier to recover from 🎉🎉🎉🎉
My Win For The Week: Cooking Fish and Chips for My Mom
Hold up! So the Costa Rico trip is close to $3,000 and that doesn't include airfare?! That sounds like a rip off.
Still, I am happy for Dave because I know he wanted to meet Zelph.
Yum!!
And correct, no airfare included in that price! I was thinking about all the kind of trip I could go on for that kind of money that wouldn’t involve me sharing a room with a stranger lol.
Okay so I went down a rabbit hole about Trova Trip after watching this, and it seems like the whole thing is a really unethical practice. Just overcharging people for what would be a very low priced vacation if they booked it themselves. And the creators who host it get PAID sometimes in the thousands to host! Honestly, for me, (and full disclosure I have watched some of Zelph's videos) it's a red flag if any creator engages with this company.
My thoughts on this whole thing is that I don't have a problem with Zelph wanting to interview Bethany and that they are showing kindness to them. I think kindness is very important but I think there is a difference between the kind of kindness they were showing Bethany vs the kind of kindness that Tim from TNE showed Paul and Morgan.
Zelph were out there calling Bethany an angel and agreeing with everything she was saying rather than asking the questions that would kindly make her take more thought and accountability. I don't think Bethany needs to put her whole deconstruction (to whatever degree that is) out on the internet but I do wish she would take more accountability for things that have been said. It's harder for her because she is a public figure, and a lot of people are able to deconstruct in private and do what they need to do but she has put some very harmful things out there and continues to do so still. I wish that Zelph had asked more questions that someone like Tim would have asked.
Watching the Zelph video was actually quite boring and I zoned out a lot. It felt like I was apart of a conversation I shouldn't have really been apart of. It felt like I was butting in on friends having a conversation with some inside jokes and that kind of thing. I had decided to not watch other reaction videos to this video because it was hard to watch the first time but I wanted to watch yours because I like hearing your insights.
Glad to see that you were getting a shout out in the Fundie Fridays/TNE collab. You show the kind of kindness that I think Tim did in the 24 hours with video.
Great video! Definitely wouldn't have been able to get through their video without your commentary! Your criticisms seem fair and valid - especially the parts about asking for donations for themselves (pretty sure they aren't a non profit?) and their convo on lgbtq topics.
My win for the week is getting back into pole classes after pet loss. We lost our senior goldendoodle a few weeks ago, and it's been really tough. After giving myself space to grieve, I'm getting back into things I love.
Sam was raised secular. She converted to mormonism as a teenager, I believe.
I 2nd the comment that you should have a conversation with The New Evangelicals.
I got a very competitive audition for lots of money and that's my big win!!
Congratulations!!! That’s awesome! Get that 🍞!
I wrestle with this a lot too. I think on one hand, this colab feels important and like it could be a good thing in the long run. Humanizing each other feels necessary if we ever want to be able to effectively “call people in” and hold them accountable. But also the sort of gushing bff vibes were hard to stomach and probably went too far. Like at least try to tone it down in the edit.
I thought there were some moments where they at least pushed back on them a little bit, but they could’ve pushed a lot more. I think on one hand it’s fair to give Bethany some time to sort out her own beliefs given this turn of events with Dav deconstructing, but also she has a lot to answer for. I hope if Zelph does more colabs with them, it comes with an increasing level of accountability
I also made this comment before watching your actual reaction. I agree she needs time. I think she’s maybe not ready to have this conversation publicly
Yessss! Thank you so much for posting today. I've been needing someone to listen to and am so happy to see you in my feed! My brother is out of jail and got set up with housing this week which is my high!! 🙏
I know a lot of people who've deconstructed. I think with society finally acknowledging that religion (even Christianity) can be harmful, we're still deeply ignorant of the process of deconstruction and how long it takes and how painful it is.
Bethy is still in the very first part-- cracks in her worldview and the mortifying, soul-destroying knowledge that she's built her worldview around lies told to her by the people she trusts the most. Many people spend years or decades in the next stage, questioning what ELSE you "know" is actually a lie, before they are emotionally safe enough to step into vulnerability and admit their role in causing harm
It's *of course* reasonable for people who've been harmed by what bethy says to resist giving her grace, and nobody should feel obligated to be nice to her. But it's also true that she's a victim of a high demand religion, and her deconstruction from that will NOT be hurried or helped by demanding more from her than she's able to give.
Ultimately I was relieved to hear you say that bethy needs time. I think that's exactly it. It's not that she's suddenly a good person who knows all the right things to say and do.... it's a slow, painful transformation. I feel sorry for her having to do this in front of a snark community. I don't think showing kindness while she goes through this is in any way betraying the people she's harmed, it's just giving her the space to learn enough to do better!
My WFTW: I'm finally set to go back to work after a pretty serious health scare! I love my work and have been going absolutely stir-crazy for the last 4 weeks and cannot wait to get back to normal routines.
I think I might have an explanation for why a conversation on homosexuality turned into a conversation on sex crimes. (Cca at time 1:51:04 )
I think I remember Sam saying she has ADHD in one of their videos. And as a fellow ADHDer I must say, sometimes my brain gives me so wild thoughts that are just very slightly tangential to my previous thoughts, that I myself am unable to find what the connection between them is. So I can very much imagine myself in a similar conversation going from "being gay is a natural thing for some people" to "if people surppress their sexual desires it might manifest in a lot of harm being caused" without trying to equate those two. Thats just how my brain works. My thought process behind this might have been something like "gayness is ok" to "being sexual is ok" to "no one should be forced to live in celibacy" to "there were many situations where people living celibate caused harm, specifically on children". All of that within a millisecond. And the thought process I desribed here is probably way simpler than the one actually going on in my brain.
Now try putting together this hyperactivity of mind with impulsivity. Now I not only came up with a thought that is only very slightly tangetial, but I already managed to say it out loud and forget about how my brain came up with it. All of that before I was able to stop and think about it for a second.
Hope this might help a little. I really don't think Sam was trying to make it sound like these two thoughts are closely connected or something. I think, if she has ADHD, that this might have been one of the ways it manifests in us ADHDers and complicates our lives.
As a big fan of Zelph on the Shelf, I am really upset at people criticizing them for this video, especially without watching more of their content and knowing who they are! It would have been nice for people to try to gain an appreciation for their channel before making commentary. They’re a small channel, and their videos are really funny and deep. If you really get to know them in the online space, you would have zero distrust that they’re platforming hateful views. They have so obviously taken issue with all harmful messages that have come from the girl defined channel. They just aren’t dehumanizing Bethany and Dav and are trying to connect to them on a person to person level. I think the FSU subreddit is very negative and has a hard time letting things go, so I can even empathize with Bethany on thinking that from certain communities an apology wouldn’t be enough and they would continue to pick her apart. I do totally agree with you though, that an apology or more willingness to admit personal responsibility for past harmful is the most appropriate. I also agree with you when Sam was saying that it seems like Bethany really just wants to stay in her own lane I was like “where is the evidence that Bethany is like that?”. I disagreed with that at least in terms of her public persona, even pretty recently.
Overall, I’m just here to say Sam and Tanner are some of my favorite internet people, and the folks who are criticizing them seem to not get that Bethany needs encouragement and acceptance for shifts in her beliefs, even shifts that seems small to you. Bethy, I see you wearing tank tops and shorts on the internet girl, and that’s a huge step for you! Go girl. Making actual queer friends you’re hanging out with at your house. Loving your husband even though he is not what you were conditioned to believe was the only correct person for you to be in a relationship with. Letting him be open to say he’s not Christian online and owning it. She deserves credit for getting comfortable with change. I would love to see her affirm queer people one day, but I’m not going to discourage her for not being there yet.
I know! Way to criticize someone whose main source of income comes from youtube. It's not a hobby for everyone. :/ And how dare they not change people's minds instantly....
I had been a fan of theirs for awhile and I too am disappointed in them. One can still humanize people without putting them on a pedestal--which in my opinion, ZOTS have done, while also trying to come to FSU as apparent long-time members to excuse Bethany's behavior--which people were rightfully upset about, and neither Sam nor Tanner really seemed to acknowledge. They were fine with being a part of FSU (and promoting their own videos on there without stating that it was them, lol) until they got some heat. Then we all became hateful and negative. Funny how that works.
After seeing this, where Bethany is at emotionally, I don't think this should have been used for public content. Additionally, when one makes public content, one should expect to be criticized (obviously not with abuse or hateful language though). That's just going to happen. Shoot, I have a tiny little public platform and someone criticized my content, as they found part of it boring. While I didn't find it boring, I probably will shift my content in the future slightly based on their feedback. That doesn't make them "hateful" or "negative." Feedback is useful to me as a creator.
One can acknowledge that someone has made great strides while also pushing back and holding people accountable for the harm they caused. Both can exist.
Edit to add: if someone isn't making enough from content creation, they should probably get a job (or two) like the rest of us. Yeesh.
You get it.
Idc about this part at all but RUclips is not the only way they earn money. Tanner is a visual artist and sells his art. Sam is a faith transitions coach, and until fairly recently worked as a copy writer. If the ways that they ask for money such as Venmo or the Costa Rica trip don’t jive with me or are out of my price range I won’t pay for it. Just consume their free content. The fact that they ask for money does not interfere with the quality of their content in my opinion.
As far as critique that maybe Bethany needs a minute to process her thoughts and feelings privately before making public content about this shift- that’s valid. Probably true. There should be no pressure for her to make content about this, especially while she’s in the midst of it.
@@gtbrannog95 lol yeah since it’s a universally easy experience to instantly change people with decades worth (and probably generations worth in this case) of deeply conditioned beliefs, I was really shocked and offended that Sam and Tanner were unable to do this in a WHOLE weekend. But also it could have just been a Zoom call because I hate that they asked for money for this trip.
😏😒🙄 ^*100% sarcastic*
Beth has a long history of saying and supporting some very damaging beliefs and ideas. I'm truly happy for her, if she feels that she is making changes in her life to be a better person, however, it will take more than 1 or 2 interviews of her being less judgmental of others for me to give her much grace. Actions speak louder than words, and only time will tell if this is just more performance for her, or if she REALLY wants to be more accepting of other people whose lives look different from her own.
I have actually watched this one (usually I watch stuff through your channel). So I’m really excited to listen to your commentary! Perfect timing as I gear up for cleaning the house 👏🏻.
I’m excited to hear any thoughts you have on it especially listening the second time around!
As a fellow Texan, may I ask where you’re from? I share San Antonio as a hometown with them 😅
@@lindseyhendrix2405 Raised in East TX now living in North TX :). So I’m right smack dab in the Bible Belt too haha. I actually didn’t know San Antonio was as religious because I’ve only visited!
@@lindseyhendrix2405 I'm from San Antonio, too! The one shot in this video where they were walking by the river I paused it to try and figure out where they were lol
@@saratexas5181 it's definitely not as strongly religious as East Tx, but still pretty religious
I'm actually ok with them asking for money for their trip to Texas. I totally agree that they didn't need to go there, they could have done it over zoom, but they for whatever reason wanted to do it in person. I do have a problem with the sneaky lil bracket add of their tax bill. It lacks transparency for what people are giving money toward. That's sketchy AF
i thinm it's a problem with progressive spaces in general - being more charitable and forgiving towards those who leave for example alt-right space and haven't even done much work to dismantle the harmful stuff they did/believed in... than folks who are self-proclaimed progressives and did an oopsie, like you can get shunned and blasted for something minor.
bethy will never change, she and dave will never understand you can't just abandon your past grift without doing any work like at least for example donate towards organizations that provide sex ed for teens...
Thank you so much for doing this video! You perfectly put into words how I've been feeling and my growing disappointment in Zelph.
Disappointment in what? Not changing minds instanteously? That's not how big changes happen.
@@gtbrannog95 Incorrect. I'm disappointed with many things, none of which have anything to do with changing anyone's mind. Did you watch B Haney's whole video? She perfectly explains everything.
@@maria_tea_ If you meant that you don't like how they ask for money, I don't really get that either. RUclips is not just a hobby for everyone. I don't think people should have to work themselves to death to support their main livelihood just because it happens to be youtube.
@@gtbrannog95 No one is saying that. I too do not believe "people should have to work themselves to death". I do however believe that if Zelph's youtube does not cover their costs and they have to beg for money to pay their own tax bill, that means that youtube should not be their fulltime job and they should act accordingly. You're (wrongly) assuming so much from my comment and it is kind of odd.
@@maria_tea_ Ok, "work themselves to death" is clear hyperbole from me, but I didn't guess wrong that your issue with them is that they're asking for money online. Many in these comments are so quick to assume bad intent when their main channel is free and giving is voluntary.
My win for the week was getting positive feedback in a writing group I joined!
I look forward to your videos every week! As an exmormon who is familiar with Zelph, I loved hearing your thoughts on this. Especially after how big this collab was on the Fundie Snark uncensored subreddit! I think Sam made a super long post there before the video was uploaded but deleted it shortly after 😬
Sam was a convert to Mormonism, she’s discussed it on her channel. She converted sometime before entering college - that’s how she ended up at BYU.
Thanks for giving your perspective on this. It's given me lots to think about 💚
I don't know if you will read this B, but I've been nervous to watch your response bc I was worried about how I might feel with respect to criticisms you might have of this convo between Zelph and Dav and Bethany. I found it really healing to see this growth in Bethany and to see Zelph modeling tolerance for religious folk. However, your critiques have been so well put and respectful that I haven't felt any discomfort so far. The reason for my sensitivity to begin with is religious trauma, and you've been one of the only religious people I know of who live their faith without projecting it into others such as myself, so thank you! Thank you for being a safe person.
With respect to why Sam and Tanner might have this soft spot for Bethany, I don't think it's just bc she's been nice. I think its bc Sam and Tanner, like myself, found themselves exiting mormonism the same route that Bethany has been gradually becoming less fundamental. I at one point was saying the exact same things as Bethany with respect to focusing on Christ. When I was almost out, my faith had been whittled down to nothing but Jesus and eventually, that concept just became love. And from there, I didn't need a god anymore. I just wanted to love others and be loved. I think Sam, Tanner, and myself see ourselves in Bethany, and while I think she's treading water to stay with her in group, I do think she's on her way towards where we all landed. I know you can't assume that everyone will have the same path, but I think under certain conditions, the logical conclusions will be the same. Her relationship with God previously was like many of us experienced in mormonism, so the conditions are very similar for a similar result. Idk if that makes sense. I'm not saying our softness is correct, but I think that's the root of it if that helps.
I’m going to be brutally honest from a consumers perspective, it seems like Sam and Tanner have no idea what they’re doing. And it seems like they’ve become so enamored with the idea of Dave’s deconstruction that they are willing to bypass the harm Girl Defined/Bethany have caused. This entire collaboration has zero direction or purpose other than to create content.
WFTW: I started trying to lose weight a few months ago. I've been working hard and seeing gradual gain, but my mom texted me today and said, "Your midsection is shrinking". It's noticeable!
Wow congrats!!!
I think any video following last week's p & m video would feel a little less invigorating. But Sam and Tanner really didn't do much to give the audience a premise for the purpose of this conversation.
A little direction would have gone a long way
I've watched Zelph casually for several years, but had no idea they were begging for $ while planning one of those sketchy group trips. Theyre complaining about a big tax bill. That is sus to me. They've been doing this for years, but suddenly they don't know how to file taxes correctly? Or does this mean they are finally making real money, but didnt prepare for it?? One of the reasons I couldn't really get into their channel is because the audio is SO bad that i have trouble understanding Sam. What have they been spending the money on if not for any of their recording equipment or set? It just leaves me confused.
Ok these are questions I have too! I am trying not to be too critical because obviously I don’t know them personally, and I don’t know if maybe they had something come up that they could not have predicted or prepared for but today I checked their channel history and they have been making videos consistently for at least seven years. They call themselves a startup, that implies they are treating this like a business so it would just make sense to me that they’d be serious about the operations and financial side of things but from the small amount of what I’ve seen from them, they aren’t. Plus the audio! It was so rough in this video, but I didn’t know that that was something that was also an issue in their regular videos. A lot of equipment has become so accessible, they could get decent podcast mics for like $30.
They were donated new mics recently, and it upped the quality a lot. But I do know they traveled to Texas for this visit so they probably didn’t take them with.
What is suspicious about the trips?
@@SaffronHammer The company is used by a lot of MLM or mommybloggers. They skim off the top of the price tag AND the influencer gets a cut, so it turns out pretty overpriced. Plus I've heard some horror stories (I think in a CC Suarez video on a different youtuber planning one) about them not wanting to give any refunds, even for medical emergencies.
B explained in the video.
Thanks B❤ im a zelph fan, thank you for always trying to be respectful no matter who youre talking about
💛💛
your hair looks great, I'm currently recovering from getting all of my wisdom teeth out, so I haven't had the best week tbh, but my win is your video about this being released and it being f1 race week, so that way I have some distractions. Also popsicles, I'm so grateful for popsicles!
Also, thanks for pointing out the questionable little things about Zelph, I was aware of their chanel, the Dav and Bethy video being the only one I watched, and I haven't looked into them at all, so I really appreciate some context and additional information :)
I was excited to watch this interview because even tho I am painfully aware of the bigotted things Bethy has stood by and hasn't publicly walked back on, I honestly felt very conflicted watching the interview, wanting to hold space for her to re-evaluate her beliefs and stances, but also still having big issues with what she does and what she puts out into the world
Thank you 💛 I hope you heal up quickly and start feeling better!
I’m glad the additional info about Zelph was helpful! And I’m with you on feeling conflicted. I want Bethany to feel supported enough to explore her own faith while Dav is doing the same but I’m just not sure if that’s something she actually wants to do especially if she isn’t willing to take an honest look at past content.
My win for the week is that I got to go out to dinner with my sister who doesn’t live here. Also my bird has recovered from being a little sick!
My win is I just got a haircut!
Definitely felt like.... a softball PR kinda video? But I'm not a member or seeing their behind the scenes stuff, just a casual watcher. (I've had some "uuuuuuuh-??" Reactions to some of their stuff before but probably because Id seen the same person talked about by someone who noticed more dogwhistles than they seemed to know about) Yikes on TRIKES about their trip being a Trova one,,,
I’ve watched some zelph and from what I understand Sam was a covert in like highschool and grew up in the UK and was raised without religion. Then she became a hard core Mormon and went to Utah for college
WFTW: I was able to clear out a bunch of branches off a huge bush that grows in my backyard that was hanging down and getting in the way when I mowed my front lawn today. My wife was so happy and appreciative to see that I did that, and I was glad to make her happy!
For some reason the volume of this collab video seems pretty muffled. Being hearing impaired, it was tough hearing what was being said. I was working on my weekly content, so I couldn't stop to read the closed captioned.
I had heard when someone had confronted Bethany about her course and why she's qualified, she just held up one of her kids to the camera! Ugh! Just because you had a child or two DOES NOT qualify you to give advice on intimacy and sexuality! Rachel Oates took her course and did a long breakdown, and a lot of Bethany's courses are interviews and Beth sitting there nodding dumbly in agreement.
Let's hope they let "Girl Defined" fade out! The world would be better off without their narrow, limited views and questionable understanding of Scripture. There's a saying about "knowing just enough to be dangerous" that tends to spring to mind!
The whole thing about Bethy dismissing her old videos was SO disingenuous, like you pointed out, B! If you want to be known as trustworthy and have advice with substance, you have to acknowledge what you said in the past! Especially these two!
Very sugar-coated talk from Bethany! Like you said, B, it's easy to "talk the talk than walk the walk"! Let's see how her kids turn out and if they follow her beliefs or not, and if not, THEN see how committed she is to that premise!
"Be the realest person", Bethany, you are FAR from "real"! Bust out of your ego bubble and wake up!
Dav needs to scrutinize Bethany's views a bit more thoroughly. If he's adopting this "live and let live" philosophy, he needs to acknowledge and challenge Bethany on what she has said and have her clarify exactly what she thinks!
The whole thing of growing up with beliefs and having them challenged later strikes home! I came from a VERY Conservative environment, and when I started college, I had a LOT of my "sensibilities" challenged, and I thank God that I did!! And seeing my viewpoints change as well as my worldview and how that contrasted so much with people back in that same area later was almost night and day!
It might be just that this old guy is a tad jaded, but I'm not certain what to think of this. I agree with B that Bethany DEFINITELY needs more time to adjust and deal with what Dav is going through.
Oh, B.....quick question.....where did you get that guitar riff for the beginning of your videos? Was that something you had recorded somewhere, or was it from a music service? Just curious! :)
Thank you SO much for this video. I tried to watch the OG vid & it almost immediately rubbed me the wrong way. Your commentary made sense of what was bothering me, esp the part about Bethany taking no responsibility for the harm her vids/beliefs have done. There needs to be a balance between support and accountability as these influencers deconstruct. She’s kind of too old to be just realizing she can make her own decisions (esp while still leaning on others ie Dav & her mentor to make her decisions for her). I have a lot of mixed feelings about her and I’m not ready to just accept her with open arms in the way Sam & Tanner seem to be.
Btw, I hope you're feeling well. Continued congratulations. :) Your hair looks gorgeous.
Thank you! 💛
Something interesting I have noticed is that Bethany acts much more mature speaking outside of Girl Defined content than she does when filming content for Girl Defined. This isn't to say there isn't more growth to be had, such as recognizing when an apology would be appropriate, but the more she separates herself from Girl Defined the more growth she appears to have. She has mentioned the idea that Girl Defined may no longer exist one day, and from an outside perspective I think that would be very beneficial for her. She seems to have the space to breath and evaluate her beliefs outside of Girl Defined, and she has actually handled her differences with Dave incredibly impressively. It appears as though, and she has even implied this to a degree, Girl Defined causes her to preach things she doesn't even know if or why she believes, so a separation from that would really allow her the freedom to believe things by choice and reasoning rather than expectation.
It's like her Girl Defined voice is the voice of her horrible mother speaking through her. I do feel empathy for her in that respect, she really was brainwashed from birth
I think people are missing the fact that Sam and Tanner WERE Bethany. They held the same beliefs she does. They understand the hold that religion has over people. And the way to break people out of that is with kindness and empathy
I heard a story about a young man who left the flds because a gentile, or outsider, gave them chapstick. They didn’t leave that minute, of course, but it planted the seed. Kindness works. It takes time. Very few people wake up one day and suddenly they are a different person.
Sam was not raised Mormon. She was converted around college and moved to Utah somewhere in there.
I’ve been waiting to hear your take on this video!! My win for the week has been not losing my shit lol. I’ve recently stopped taking antidepressants and it has been a rough few weeks of withdrawal, but I’m feeling wayyy better the last couple of days 🧚🏼♀️
This interview with Dav and Bethy made me dislike them even more. Bethy seems performative and Dav is just saying words he thinks make him sound smart.
It’s kind of sad that questioning faith is so frowned upon in most Christian sects. One thing I like about Judaism (I have Christian and Jewish family, but I don’t consider myself either religion) is that questioning is encouraged.
That said, I don’t think Bethany should be given a pass. Praise where praise is deserved- nothing wrong with complimenting that it seems she’s treating her husband well while whatever level of deconstruction he’s going through. However, I think too many people have their blinders on and hopes up with Bethany doing the same. And no one should forget the widespread harm her girl defined stuff has caused and continues to cause to this day.
It’s really sad! Seems like a lot of Christians take asking questions as a threat to their faith. It makes me think someone is not super strong in their beliefs when they discourage people from asking questions or expressing concerns.
And same! She said she’s not deconstructing. I’m glad she seems to support Dav but have any of her harmful views REALLY changed?
win for the week is starting summer break !
It does feel like we got dropped in the middle of a conversation, which is frustrating. Maybe the intro accidentally got left off???
Look, I am a gold star ace/aro approaching thirty- but I find it incredibly frustrating that Sam and Tanner let Bethy breeze past with 'I love gay people and won't cut off contact with my kid if they are gay, however spiritually they should be abstinent for their entire lives because my god only approves of men and women marrying, so just never have a romantic or intimate relationship.' Like, WHAT? Bethy might have taken 45 minutes to get it all out, but that is the essence of it from what I heard. And I waited, but no one challenged her on it- in fact, they seemed to pat her on the back for....not spewing hatred when face to face with a queer person on film?
I personally chose not have romantic/s*xual relationships because- well, because it is my personal choice. But to just tell a gay/lesbian/queer person that does want those things to just suck it up and can it because their orientation is inherently wrong- its BS when they say 'oh its only a sin if you act on it' like come on, you know those people feel horrible and guilty even if its just the thoughts and desires.
Good point that people will still feel (as much) guilt when they suppress their sexuality and live with "just the desires"
Sam didn't start out Mormon. Her and Tanner were actually on Mormon Stories Podcast talking about their origins. Sam is a divorcé and Tanner was a missionary
I had to unfollow Zelph long before the Bethany stuff because they were begging for money almost every day via the community tab. It was cringe. Wasn’t surprised that they were so eager to monetize this situation. I’m no Bethany fan but this all just feels exploitative of her confusion and a hard time in her life. Just a mess.
Edited to add: I totally get that content creating is a job and deserves compensation but they just gave off the vibe that they were not financially positioned to do Zelph full time and passed that urgency and desperation to make it work onto the viewers.
Totally agree that this feels exploitative of Bethany. If they wanted to travel to Texas to meet up with them then that’s their business but I feel like this video was premature
I think you make a good point about it feeling exploitative of Bethany. Of course she’s an adult who made the choice to participate but her life has been rocked by this change and I’ll bet she’s looking for anyone who provides her some kind of reassurance. She may have rushed into this and Sam and Tanner wasted no time in heading over to Texas.
I would like to hear Bethany talk not just about everything being good.
She always seems to say it great its great, this was hard but its all because of a good thing.
Bethany its okay not to be okay.
Your husbands views clash with the strongly held beliefs of your life so far, but you beliefs are of obedience to your husband, this causes a conflict, that's painful and confusing.
And honey, learn to allow yourself to be yourself getting too wrapped up in your marriage, a little time apart is healthy, watch for codependency.
I honestly don't think he's going anywhere, be confident in the security of the relationship not clinging to it desperately.
Glad you are covering this. I tried watching this directly, but found it too meandering and boring. It's easier to watch with you commenting.
Edit: Are you going to cover Paul & Morgan's response to the New Evangelicals response? I found it so frustrating... I'd like to see some commentary on it, even just for my own sanity.
So, I can't say I came into this conversation with high expectations. I find a lot of Girl Defined's content frustratingly vapid and what little I knew about ZotS coming in were not things that exactly endeared me to them (I found out about the money issues from this video). Having seen the whole thing now, I kind of feel like this is either a conversation that should've either just not happened or stayed private and done over Zoom or something because oh boy was that meandering and difficult to follow. Bethy breaking down in tears felt so uncomfortable to watch too.
Right. Very meandering. Like yesterday I watched the fundie Fridays Livestream with the new evangelicals and it was very ADHD but was much more on topic and less meandering than this. It was also a lot more engaging..
And that was a Livestream that had been planned in about a week or so. These guys had much more time.
Yeah, that conversation I felt like even though it did get meander-y at points, there was still a through line that was easy to follow. It was a good conversation that felt like it was about something. This one though, what was the through line? Deconstruction, I guess in a broad sense?
Sam converted to LDS when she moved to the states as a young adult (for college I believe).
This is gonna sound creepy but for some reason I KNEW your win of the week was going to be the new hair 😂 that money piece has you feeling like yourself again love that for you ❤
I haven't yet watched this collab, but from what i've seen on the FSU subbredit I believe people are being too negative about this whole collab for my liking. I don't think there's anything hyprocritical about ZOTS kindness towards Bethany, after all it's easier to hate on someone when you've only known them through a screen. Realistically I don't think many people would have the backbone to act with as much vitriol as their online snarking when in person, being polite to someone whilst still critizing their dangerous views is pretty respectable in my eyes. I appreciate ZOTS for not dehumanizing Bethany and Dav and trying to have an actual human connection and conversation, even though they have drastically different views. It sucks that ZOTS have gotten so much flack from this situation, FSU has been hating on them quite harshly and unfairly imo.
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Ok so not directly on the subject at hand, but thank you for expressing your opinion on trips like what Zelph's trying to do. I've always thought huge influencer trips to other countries are super weird in multiple ways, if not potentially inappropriate. I fully get wanting to do something more unique and memorable than a boring ol meet n greet, just sitting in a mall or hotel conference room or whatever and signing things. But surely it can't be THAT difficult to plan a meet n greet that's 1) more exciting but mostly 2) doesn't require people to drop thousands of dollars therefore making such trips completely out of reach for most people. Like idk, meet up at an amusement or water park. Do one of those cooking classes or wine tasting events. There are so many potential options that are way more affordable, way more intimate, and will absolutely be a memorable experience for those who attend.
They wouldn’t make money that way… the whole point of those trips is that the people who sign up for them cover the costs of the “influencer” that sets up the trip… so they essentially get a free trip out of it. If everyone met up at a water park (like your example), the influencer would still have to pay their way in. I agree those trips are scammy… you can see why “influencers” jump on the opportunity because they can keep getting free trips out of the deal (since their costs are baked into the rate that is advertised to join the trip).