ULTIMANT SHOW DOWN! Bowline vs Figure 8... What to tie into?
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- Опубликовано: 28 май 2024
- Hey everyone so some of our German friends have sent me videos of what they are now learning to tie into. So here is a video covering the topic. What is better to tie into a Figure 8 or a Bowline and why. I would like to hear what you think/use. I hope you enjoy the content I make, if you do be sure to sub!
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As a lineman, we never use a figure 8. Our bowline lifts thousands of pounds a day. 1400 pound transformers, 2000 lb steel poles, etc. The bowline is a great knot.
...and always has been. I'm amused to hear that the Gernans have discovered a new way to tie in. As scouts 70 yrs ago, we were taught the bowline was THE knot to use for rescues. Absolutely secure, easy to tie AND untie. Never heard such a complicated explanation of it as the one he presents here.
figure 8 is like twice stronger than bowline
@@beboba2498 how do you figure that?
@@beboba2498 i very much doubt that.
@@richardofoz2167 A rethreaded figure 8 broke at sound 9.45 KN - 10.35 KN
A bowline broke at 8 KN - 9.1 KN
GET YA ROPE OFF OF THAT TREE!!!
And yes please do the Bowlin vs figure 8 break test. Don't know how u do it in the states but here in Germany in alpine multi pitches we typically use a sling with a bowline to tie in at the stand. Its called "weiches Auge" (soft eye, just google it in case u didn't get what I mean), and we use that knot because we learn that it doesnt compromise the stability of the sling as much as e.g. a figure 8.
So I'd love to see if and how much that is true!
Lol yeah it’s still on the tree 😅
Learned the Bowline in a lead climbing course. Greetings from Germany. ;)
Primarily because you don't end up with a knot left in the rope after untying it from the harness that gets stuck in the anchor.
I climbed for years (and taught climbing) and routinely used a simple bowline (not on bite) with a stopper knot within the loop. It is so quick and easy to tie and untie which made it really useful for me, especially with bunches of kids. (I taught the kids rethreaded figure of 8s because it was easier for them to see they got it right, and buddy check and if they only know one tie in method that is essential).
Coming in through the standing end might be the best bowline tip i've ever learned
So anyway with the whole ice bucket bit. I figured I was going to get the 8 to the point where I couldn’t even get it undone. So either I didn’t pull it hard enough or my finger board training is working. 🤣
When you tie a fig 8, you have to do it cleanly, with no strands crossing each other - and give each strand a good tug to sintch it all down once it's tied. Do that, and it's a lot easier to untie - still not as easy to undo as the bowline for sure.
The bowline is used in the maritime industry as well for towing, rec boats that can be 5k - 20k lbs through the water. After which taking the knot apart is still pretty easy. Great lil knot
Love the bowline followthrough for ice climbing. It does not freeze up impossibly and it comes undone with iced fingers while being totally secure and won’t loosen. Its awesome
when we teach the knot, we always tell a story so people remember the steps.
6:31 there is a lake with a tree on an island.
6:38 there is a monster in the sea, that comes out of the lake
6:57 wraps itself around the trea and disappears in the lake to be never seen again
7:08 just follow everything back in parallel to complete the knot.
Have fun teching ;)
rabbit goes out of the hole, runs around the tree, and back to the hole.
The old boy scout story about the rabbit coming out of his hole. Etc...
I third the rabbit !
@@CorkBouldering I like the rabbit/tree/hole one because it's clear which way round the loop goes -- the roots of a tree are always closer to you than the trunk ;)
I used to tie in with a bowline on a night quite a lot for practicing sport because it's so easy to into when you want, but I stopped because most people don't know how to tie one and therefore can't double check your setup. Most people are already pretty bad about doing thorough double checks of their partners setups before climbing, so I reverted to the figure 8 to simplify that process. I have one climbing partner with whom I would feel comfortable using the bowline, and that's because we both have the same intense focus on double-checking safety systems, and I know he wouldn't be thrown off by a chiral knot like the bowline. For the most part, I'd just stick with the system that everyone knows, and just keep using the Yosemite finish on the figure 8 to make it easier to untie!
Lol I fuck with my partner when he ties an r-bowline by telling him the z-bowline is the one true bowline
I've been using it for a while. I'm 95 kg and it's MUCH easier to deal with after I've been dogging a route
yup but if you mess up, you die. pretty hard to mess up a figure eight, I am like 97kg and I always manage to untie my figure eights, the trick is to do them properly, Hard is easy has a great video about this
@@tyrionas A lot of things in life are that way, particularly with climbing. One should learn it so it’s second nature. It’s not that difficult. Yes, for someone new who’s not as familiar with this stuff, go fig 8. Once one understands the bowline tho, it’s every bit as safe.
@@tyrionas once you've learned it, it's nearly impossible to mess up. But cross check is a must nevertheless. The most common mess up I heard off was the untied knot on a harness: people pull the rope through their harness and then switch to put off their shoes, then climb as is. Can happen with any type of knot.
@@user-dt9xb7sn2q i have heard of local stories where climbers had their knot undone or that they literally died with those. Even experienced climber can mess up a knot. It is much harder to mess up a figure 8 in my opinion as I never heard of any experienced climber ever dying with a figure 8. Also all competitions make the figure 8 mandatory for its simplicity and because it is easier to check.
@@tyrionas I’ve seen both knots messed up, but only by newbies. Never seen a bowline messed up by any experienced climber. Double bowline is also similar to figure 8 as you follow the path of an already tied knot. Bowline is weaker indeed, but strong enough for sport climbing. The reason it became a requirement in competitions was mostly a preference to have a single standard knot everybody knew how to tie and check.
I don't know about other gyms, but our gym teaches the Figure 8 in toprope courses, and the bowline in lead climbing (since it's easier to untie when you fall a lot)
Wow the puns were flowing in this one!!!! Good job Josh, you got me laughing
Thank you
My 11m static was was tied with two overhands
Just to add to the mix... for rigging at top. When I did Industrial work, for rigging (not tying in) we'd always used a figure of nine because after repeated loading, especially on stiff fuzzy older ropes and wet weather, a figure 8 was so hard to undo. Figure nine with its extra twist is an ugly bulky knot but would always untie at the end of the day :)
I gotta learn this knot for anchor point..Everytime I do a figure 8 follow through it is very frustrating trying to untie the knot after my weight is on it.
Would definitely be Easier to untied but it eats up a bit more rope I think. I think if the two loops can be used for two points as well I’d still end up Tying a fisherman’s in there lol 😂
There’s an additional reason to tie via bowline: after disconnecting the rope from your harness there is no knot in the rope left. With figure 8 there is and if you forget to untie it and pull the rope through the Anker on top of the Route the rope may get stuck
That’s a great point!
Also the Bowling has a lower breaking Point to the figure eight
@@smokeyriceballs5880 If the rope breaks at the tie-in knot, a lot of other shit has gone wrong and you're fucked anyway.
I’m sure many people have a copy of freedom of the hills, there is a table that shows the tensile strength of each of those knots. The figure 8 is 5% stronger on average then the bowline. This generally converts to meaning your rope’s strength is reduced by 25%, so for example, a rope that is rated at 15 Kn will theoretically break AT a figure 8 knot with 11 Kn force put on it. That would be a legendary fall, and probably your last. Since most lead falls don’t even generate upwards of 5 Kn, you are completely fine tying the bowline all the time, but why....Just like Josh said, no one will be able to check this not, climbing gyms will shun you, and it’s overall a weaker knot. Josh absolutely nailed it, the only time you should be using this knot is when you’re feeling sporty and want to take confidence whippers and/or worrying about untying you’re knot. Sweet video!
I work at a Climbing gym and we basically habe to learn all the different belay and knot types to see if our customers are safe
That must be a great gym! Do you make them use the 8 though or are they allowed to tie in with something different. Just curious
@@BetaClimbers 8 and bowline are allowed! Even the cashiers know how to control them
@@finnweber56 sounds like you have a well trained gym staff! 🤙🏻 We salute you ✋🏻✊🏻
We also allow every type of semiautomatic belay and most of the time someone knows hot to control them
Late to the party, but great to hear a yank pronounce bowline correctly 😊
The other great thing about a bowline on a bight is it’s super easy to adjust the length of the loops equally eg emergency harness. A bunny ears 8 is better for asymmetrical adjustment eg balancing an anchor.
To tie a bowline try this easy to remember phrase - the rabbit comes up out of his hole, runs around the tree and dives back into his hole... the hole comes first, the tree second, so it's behind the hole. The working end is the rabbit. That's what's up, Doc.
Always fun watching people that dont tend and finish knots.
sailers use this double bowline to make a makeshift harness to climb up the mast. Always wondered why climbers use figure eight knots..
That knoten sure looked guten tight. I’ve never used anything but the figure eight to tie in, but I’ll be practicing this one just in case. Thanks for the video
Hi, I'm from germany and do rock climbing for over ten years now.
In my climbing club the majority (including myself) uses the double bowline. I personally prefer it over the figure 8 because it's kind of redundant. If the follow thru for what ever reason get loose, the ordinary bowline is still holding on, you can't say that about the figure 8.
The tie in time is not a big point, too. We sometimes do a little 'competition' who is faster and it's nearly always similar, sometimes even faster.
The most climbing gyms I'm going to teaches both knots, often the figure 8 for beginners/toprope climbing and the double bowline for the more experienced/lead climber.
Greetings from germany!
interesting that bowlines are allowed in euro gyms, i like it!
do not compete on fastest tie in time when doing a real climb!
@@BananaWormski After having an eye out in some more climbing gyms I would say it's common but not overly in use, maybe like 80% figure 8 and 20% double bowline (sometimes even less).
@@BananaWormski Funny how the land of the free overregulates climbing gyms. In Europe you just go and climb, it's your own responsibility what you do there.
@@bilbodragon8946 ahahhahah very true
i am 0.8% less awake and alert after watching 11 minutes of thid video.
Thank you, man!
🤙🏻
I'd love to see you test a water knot vs. a beer knot in tubular webbing. This is for use as an anchor if for some reason a pre-sewn sling or cordelette wasn't on hand.
While I always find break tests interesting, I do have to ask whether it's necessary, I don't think the probably marginal increase in strength matters in this application, since the forces you would experience if one of these knots broke would likely kill you anyway, and are pretty hard to generate under normal conditions.
Sounds like you are too smart from rope breaking lol I have the same problem when I watch movies with bad physics 🤣 ruins the whole movie for me.
@@BetaClimbers I know exactly what you mean😂
@@BetaClimbers Bad physics is frustrating; inconsistent physics is unforgivable!
The bowline knot is awesome, but please make sure it’s locked off.
It is if you do the retraced bowline, the retrace acts as the lock. A different approach would be the yosemite finish.
@@raphaelbeinhauer9242 I use the Scott’s Locked Bowlline
For me the bowline and figure 8 knot is a great knot if you double the bowline and double figure 8 knot then secure the knot with two overhand knot
What do you think about big wall bouline knot?
It's worth using a stopper knot with the bowline, itstead of the tuck in, just in case you've made a complete hash of it.
Lol, I'm German and I constantly thought "why the fuck isn't he using the bowling?" 😂😂
Because he's not bowling Heinz! It's because he's not bowling!
@@HaasGrotesk shut up Connor
@@HaasGrotesk shut up Connor
Could you do a video on the Scott’s locked bowline? I use it all the time and it’s a very safe bowline variant.
I noticed your climbing tools/axes/picks on the wall, do you do any ice climbing? If so, can you do a vid on picking a good ice tool, thnx.
Disclosure - I am not a climber but do have an incurable interest in knots. My thoughts for what they are worth ....
Don't overlook the importance of rope stress and damage. Worth considering that, over a period, you will be tying in many times using the same small end section of rope and cumulative damage could creep in and become a significant factor. Particularly true when you need to use the trusty pliers, spikes, screwdrivers or whatever is at hand to untie a tight knot. Damage is very often not visually obvious and some folks, I guess, are more meticulous than others when it comes to inspection and rope shortening. Any knot that reduces concentrations of internal knot stress under load, and obviates the need for 'tool intervention' has got to be a good thing and in my mind, this [and the points you raised in the vid] is a real plus point for using one of the Bowline variants.
For simplicity, security and ease of untying, I particularly like the EBSB [End Bound Single Bowline] One advantage of this knot is that once tied, if the loop is a bit too large [or small], it is literally a 2 second job to adjust, with slack going to [or taken from] the rope and not the tail end. This means you can tie the knot with a larger loop in plain sight and turn it over to inspect and check the back side, before doing a quick final adjustment to the exact size loop to suit your needs. PACI determine this knot to be inherently secure and stable and its use is approved for life critical situations without the need for a backup knot.
Any chance of a video about the 'ins and outs' of this knot one day please ???
[fyi, Channel ' Bowline Dandy ' has an excellent video on tying and checking this knot]
Could you do a video of alpine butterfly on a top rope. If you already made one, I'll keep looking through your videos. Thank you
Good Tutorial, You Know your Knots. I Know Many Knots, Climbing, Fishing, Maritime, for me It's Hard to Beat the Family of Figure Eight, So Many Variations
I use the bowling a lot also like the double bowling and the clove hitch bowline...I'm super light and really just do it because I hate untying my figure eight!!
Really liked the reverse - engineering portion.
My experience/preference (me being safety first climber):
- For any lead climbing - bowline follow through for ease of untying.
- For cleaning up anchors - figure 8 as you will not load it and you are no longer on the ground, and the bowline sometimes feels odd when tied/observed from below.
- For gym climbing - bowline follow through if the gym is okay with that.
In my first climbing course we learned both, with the bowline taught to be tied with one hand also. I started out using the figure 8 (climbing mostly in gyms) but when I got into outdoor leading, trad climbing, mixed climbing, etc. - switched to bowline.
We call it in our country a double dragons knot and we have a so called fairy tale about it. Dragon comes out of the lake takes a princess and goes back to the lake. Sport climbers commonly use this to tie in bcs when u fall into it its easy to untie unlike a figure of eight.
I can tie a bowline one handed. Useful when the other hand is busy, like holding on to something.
Nice!
I've used the bowline knot without a follow through. I just make fisherman knot. Am I doing it correctly?
great video ! you can do the bowline without the reverse engineering part, before you put the bite through the hole send it through your carabiner first then put it through the hole and finish the bowline. you will find that your carabiner is already in place.
you can do the same thing with the figure eight only if you use the same idea as the bowline as in using the bite to fold back on it self to cause a news.
Great video as always! So as you were talking a thought popped into my head (usually, a bad sign 😅)
I wonder if “how hard a knot is to untie” correlates with “how much it reduces the rope strength”?
I know for practical purposes we can just assume all knots give 50% and leave it at that, but the geek in me wants to know. Maybe hownot2highline has some data on this...
Yeah it’s safe to assume a tighter knot is a weaker knot. You don’t want your knot so loose it can come undone but you don’t want it so tight it can’t absorb energy. But in the end it’s probably all negligible. Even a tight knot is strong enough.
What are your thoughts on climbers attaching to their tie in knot via carabiner (i.e. Hans Florine's speed climbing book)
I never read the book maybe he had a good reason too if he is speed climbing. My thoughts are ropes can do strange things like flip biners grab and twist them around. So don’t think it’s a good idea. Besides that it’s also nice to be able to get as close as you can to your piece like if your aiding so every inch counts.
2:34 That's exactly the way i tie the figure 8 when you did the pull test with yer truck over there you tied it sloppy the way you tie the figure 8 depends on how well you can untie it after. no one wants welded knots so TIE IT RIGHT!!!
Welded 🤣 lol
Do one on the dragging bowline. Tie a standing bowline with an arm length of slack, and drag it around wherever you want!🎉🤣
So I come back to this video from time to time and I'm pretty focus on the knots since I'm using from time to time... So it's like maybe the 4th time I see the video and only on this time I catch the german "good and tied" joke... 😆
Do one on the sport bowline!
Couldn't you just attach using a carabiner to the loops so you wouldn't need to rethread etc?
Can somebody explain if the 'bow line follow through' here is any different (in terms of safety) than the double bow line that seems to be more common. One difference i've noticed trying this out myself, you end up with 2 bites of rope passing through your harnes with the follow through method and 1 bite with the double bow line. Is this 'follow through' inherintly secure (i.e. does't require a backup stopper). Thanks to anyone who can answer this and... HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Happy new year! I believe it is safer than the double. This bowline needs to basically undo itself twice to come completely undone. With a double you are just getting more frictions on the tail. I honestly haven’t had experience climbing with either because my go to has always just been the 8. But if I was going to choose one I’d go with this one. Unless you wanted to save some rope length but I’d still end up Tying the tail with a double fisherman to end off the double so. There are my 2 cents,
@@BetaClimbers Cheers! you have been very helpful my friend.
I do the bowline all the time so i no forget
I do my tree work off a bowline. No follow through just a stop knot. Hasn’t failed me yet
Me too
Single bowline and a back up.
I never used a figure 8 until my climbing gym forces me to get signed off on top rope and lead. Figure 8 is secure and simple but as a relatively heavier climber, untying a figure 8 after a fall is absolutely the worst part of my sessions. Bowline for days son.
Have you done any videos on the figure 8 rappel device? I was taught how to use one about 15 yrs ago but have since completely forgotten how to use one. Seems like it has just fallen out of popularity?
I think its the best thing to actually catch some one dynamically I’ll prob do a video on that for sure.
I used a bowline follow through for three-four years but I’ve had it loosen before and one time the follow through was totally undone. Nowadays I use it sparsely and when I do, I give it a look before sitting down in the harness. Maybe the finish you showed would make it safer in that regard.
Interesting if that is the case I’d always recommend tying a double fisherman at the end just like we do with the 8. Thanks for sharing your experience.
How safe is to use a carabiner for tide a figure 8 to the belay loop in lead climbing?
Yeah that’s not recommended. Rope can do strange things to carabiners. Some time it can twist gates open and unlock them. So you should always tie direct to harness’s. You also want the knot as close as possible in case you want to be right up against your last piece of protection.
@@BetaClimbers isn't safe even with that fish eye carabinners?
@@felipecuervo1 It's not just the rope either. If a biner is on your harness, it gets in your way, lengthens the system, is a bulky thing between you and the rock that might hurt you in a fall, it's just one more thing to fail, plus if the biner is on the end, it's kinda prone to getting bashed around and that's bad for metal components.
@@felipecuervo1 often at events where many different inexperienced people climb they tie them in with no non-lockers with their gates on different sides.
That boline is in the loop end of a bull riding rope. It is used to adjust for the size of each bull.
Please do a tutorial on the dragon bowline
I disagree with some statements. If the 8 is wrongly tied, e.g. not completely tied back, it can still look OK at a glance, but it holds nothing. If you do not tie the other one back completely, it still holds fine (tying back mainly increases the the safety and is necessary if you pull a large diameter, e.g. putting it around a tree, or if you knot gets side loaded, highly unlikely for the knot in a harness)
In the buddy system your buddy should know how to check your knot even if it's a bowline. If he didn't know he better learn. It's not that hard. Unless you're a beginner of course.
Might be time to find a better buddy 😂
Great video! If its not broken don't fix it.
Bowline is great in climbing gyms or single pitch climbs.
For multi-pitch climbing it is questionable due to strong tendency to fall apart under repetitive relaxation.
And, yes, happened to me before.
The way you tied a double figure-of-8 was absolute madness. Why tie a double first and then undo it?
Can we get a video on using figure 8 descender like the one shown in the video
Will do
I've never seen anyone tie a figure eight like that 😂
Excellent video. As much as I admire the "bowline-on-a-bight" knot, I don't much like the RE-THREADED version because, as you point out, it's WAY too easy to screw up in the re-threading, plus it's harder to get both loops exactly the same size, so as to equalize their tension. It is, however, always easy to untie... that is, if you've tied it correctly! The non-re-threaded version is much more useful, in my opinion, and is the knot used by the hero in the movie "Hacksaw Ridge."
However, I think that a FRENCH bowline (Ashley Book Of Knots 1072 ?) is much easier to tie around something, and does not require any re-threading! Also, the two loops created may be easily adjusted to equalize their tension.
To get the running end out of the way, if desired, a Yosemite finish is ideal, because it helps to stabilize both loops. The French bowline is a VERY strong knot, because of its gentler "nip," (i.e. the load line passes around TWO ropes at the point where it grabs)! It is also extremely easy to remember, since the French is just a bowline with an extra loop added: the first loop just passes up through the "hole" and back down. Only the second loop "goes around the tree," so to speak. 🙂
[ ABOK 1072 ACTUALLY shows the Portuguese bowline, whose first loop DOESN'T pass through the hole! They work about the same, but the French version is actually easier to "tie on the fly," in my opinion. ]
The "frozen hands" idea was a very important point, too! Nice work.
Use a Bowline with a Yosemite Finish, or AKA, Yosemite Bowline
5:47 europe-style bowline best for when you will fall a lot when trying a new, hard route or when you expect there will be a hard fall in a route. Opens up easily and is secure.
Figure of 8 is best for beginners, and when you dont plan on falling a lot. Even a figure 8 opens up easily after a fall when you "break" the knot and twist it around a bit.
One of the issue with a bowline (and don’t recommend a follow through- doesn’t add strength) - is that a bowline will untie itself unless backed up if loose and reloaded repeatedly. Hence the backup
Did you take it off the tree
Around the tree and down into the hole.
in chinese or at least how i was tought the we call bowline a “hang up person knot”
Some have touched on it here but no one said it outright.... Yes it comes untied easier that's why it can be dangerous. Several people have died or nearly died using this knot. If it never gets weighted, it can work loose just moving around . Goes something like this.. Sport climber always uses this because they hang dog all the time and end up totally pumped at the end of a climb. Forget to lock it off or they tie an overhand stopper knot. They ate their wheaties, so they flash the climb. Sit back the chains and....
Hows the tree lookin?
Have you seen Hard Is Easy's video about figure 8 that's easy to untie? ruclips.net/video/PJkCaUUhqgs/видео.html
Basically putting the follow through threads to the outside of the knot makes the knot way easier to untie even if loaded by a heavy lead fall. Good information on this video as well!
And just in case you forgot: GET THE ROPE OFF OF THAT TREE!!!
Yeah it’s still there lol I’ll do it tn hopefully lol
After watching that video, it's the only way I tie a figure 8 now and is always much easier to untie.
Bowline follow through FTW
You can use your biner to lever out some rope to untie a fig8 easier
I use the Scott’s Locked Bowline. It won’t come undone. So easy to untie unlike the figure 8
I this what I would call the clove hitch bowline..a clove hitch instead of a single loop around the rope..I went from single to double to clove hitch and now use the bowling follow through...lol
single hand bowline that is why it is better than figure 8. there is many ways to tie bowline don't forget stopper knot. best knot ever.
Did anyone notice you have a typo in the title?
hey guys what side of your harness do you tie into?
Uuuugh 😑
On the bowline I learned... the rabbit comes up out and f the hole, goes around the tree and goes back in the hole. I was a Boy Scout at the time
They taught us the exact same method in the AIR FORCE 😂
That took quite some time to show how to tie a simple overhand on two strands of rope ;-)
I'd recommend watching the channel Hard is Easy video called "why Figure 8 knot is NOT hard to tie"
Yeah me and Ben did a collaboration.
verse engineered?
Goodandtight 😂
Im gonna drop the knowledge of knowingly knowing the figure of 9 on a bite in combination with a locking biner...
I'm guessing 8 is stronger but bowline is faster. Long story short if you find yourself overboard and someone throws you a line. Tie a bowline. Gyms probably require it because it's easy to identifying at a distance tied correctly
goodandtide 🤣
Why are you tying a bowline on a bight? That's a fairly complicated version of the bowline. Lots of climbers have historically used the regular bowline, or regular bowline with a Yosemite tie off. The double 8 is mainly good because it's more easily inspected.
This is “ knot”an episode I’m really proud of it was one of my originals like I should have unused a brighter rope - ruclips.net/video/d1bekPRYMoc/видео.html but anyway I show how you can mess up a Yosemite. I think this version is safer for that reason.
''If they get divorced, you die.'' :D
How about double 8 😎
You gotta collab with HowNotToHighline!
I’m always down for collabs you need to go tell him that lol. 🤣
you can tie the figure 8 two different ways one will be easy to untie after fall the other is a nightmare watch hard is easy to see both ways he has a video just about the figure 8
You misspelled ultimate...
It's been two years now... so that rope better not still be on the dang tree!!