Willow for the Win✨ - Buffy the Vampire Slayer season 2 episode 22 Reaction & Commentary
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- Buffy the Vampire Slayer season 2 reaction
Buffy Becoming Part 2 reaction
Buffy gets a little help from a friend, Joyce meets Buffy's bands lead singer, while Angelus shares his passion for chainsaws
Our movie channel, Sam & Maria:
/ @samandmariachannel
Guys, my first sentence on the cops + shooting teens conversation, at 2:03 minutes in, was "I'm sure American cops will shoot at teenagers, in fact, they do. We know that". So how are we getting so many of you trying to tell us that cops definitely shoot at teens in America. It's the exact thing I said.... What are we disagreeing on? - Sam
Haven’t read every comment, so not certain if/why they might be disagreeing. We(my friends and I)used to joke that you could tell whether reactors to the show were American or not based on how they reacted to this episode. Reactors around the world almost always stop and react in shock and/or disbelief to seeing police choosing to open fire on the back of an unarmed teenage girl running away from them with an innocent(to the police) civilian principal in the line of fire. American reactors tend to either keep watching like nothing happened, or react with knowing, almost casual acceptance along the lines of “yep. Cops would do that. That’s perfectly normal”. 🤷♂️
I think you were trying to say that it’s bad that cops will do this, but it came across more like you were saying it was unrealistic that they will do this, or that the show was depicting it badly somehow even though it’s realistic? I dunno. Americans are sensitive about cops, even in media. I had a cop come to my class to teach us that we could get hurt or die if we run from the cops-when I was 12. We can’t talk about them objectively, really, so people probably just got a little heated and didn’t meet you in the middle as they otherwise might’ve.
Perhaps it was because you had said there was no reason for them to say she was dangerous, but she’d just assaulted a male police officer, and overpowered him, before running away. Leaving the scene of a crime, assaulting a police officer, and then running from them, are all considered highly illegal, and dangerous, violent behavior in the US. That’s the only thing I can figure may have set a few tongues wagging. Lol! It was considered crazy, when it first aired, I remember. Even here in the USA.
I think my only real issue with this episode is how quickly Kendra is forgotten. The cops thinking Buffy did it aside, she’s then barely mentioned. No kind of remembrance for the fallen slayer who tried so hard to save the Scoobies in Buffy’s absence. I know Willow was in hospital but still…
The thing is Kendra wasn't well established to be remembered by the Scooby Gang enough. That's on JW, due to his personal issues on certain people not fitting into fantasy worlds, whether they're his own or an IP he's hired to work on.
@@Madbandit77 She was almost Cordelia but had a scheduling conflict so couldn't accept. I don't believe Kendra was meant to be a long term character to begin with. I believe articles went over the idea that she as meant to demonstrate a bit how the slayer magic worked, that death triggered a new slayer but because Buffy was revived she still had the slayer abilities. The idea someone could be brought back to life back when the original slayer was made wasn't considered. Death in general was thought to be permanent and a slayer death particularly so. It made for a good couple episodes to demonstrate it all.
@@afry6400 I know Bianca Lawson was originally meant to play Cordelia. I just think there were blindspots on how the character was handled (the eleventh hour Caribbean dialect).
The relief and ecstasy on Buffy's face when Angel takes her in his arms followed a second later by the instantaneous realization of the horror of her absolute duty to kill him is just(more) incredible acting by SMG.
The tearful, agonized, snotty kiss goodbye was just magical. NOBODY cries like SMG. BTW, "Close your Eyes" is the name of the Buffy/Angel theme that plays over the scene.
The sheer operatic intensity of the finale is impressive, even after 25 years.
The whole fan controversy about Xander not telling Buffy about Willow's attempt at the spell is a tempest in a teacup. Buffy was on an all but suicidal mission against an unknown number of vampires, on ground of their choosing, and with a hostage to protect.
She got there too late to prevent him from pulling the sword from Acathla. She BARELY survived fighting him without holding back anything. All Xander could have done was weaken her focus, intention and commitment and get her killed.
Willow was a completely untrained novice at magic, shortly after awakening from a coma, attempting an incredibly(almost uniquely) powerful spell about which little was known...without Giles to help.
He was being a petty bitch, sure...but he wasn't wrong. And he went with her into mortal combat, himself already badly injured, without being asked.
Don't get me started on lameass Whistler. YOU started this miserable foul up.
STFU, grab a weapon and help The Slayer!
The "me" speech is one of the most iconic parts of the show. Its such a great moment.
The team up between Spike and Buffy was great to see and altogether, this episode had great humor.
Its a good way of closing the Angel arc and the setup of Buffy leaving town is exciting.
Gotta say, im really excited for the next episode. I dont know why, but it had a big impact on me. It very well done.
Two final things: the show premiered on march 10th, 1997. 27 years later, this show is still impressive. And SMG's facial expressions at the end: the relief but then the horror of her duty and the shock of what happened, is just stunning.
Sarah is sooooooo good at conveying what the character is feeling with just her eyes alone sometimes. Remarkable actress, very underrated.
If it wasn't clear, the slayer convo with Joyce was at least somewhat inspired by a kid coming coming out to their parents. "I didn't choose to be this way" and "you need help". " Have you tried not being the slayer?" It also kinda explains why Buffy and Joyce are both a bit uncharacteristic.
He didn’t get it, as usual haha
@ryanking6851 Yeah, I figured, but it's not something I have any experience in - Sam
@JimmyPageTV Excuse me? You think I should be commenting on what it's like to come out as a gay teen when I have zero experience with it? - Sam
@@TheBuffSummer yeah no problem. Just thought you might find it interesting
I hear you 😊 - Sam
Oh, and another thing I'd like to explain.
When Buffy says she's got nothing left to lose it's not just because she got expelled and kicked out of her house but also because in her mind she feels like no one's on her and Angel's side. No one understands. No one to turn to. She had Willow, who's been pretty supportive so far, but then Xander tells her that Willow told him to tell her to kick Angel's ass... That little lie made Buffy assume she doesn't have her best friend's back either. So she takes off.
"You're all you've got, that's the point" - That really resonates with Buffy and it's a main theme of this show. She's a Slayer. "What's left?" -"Me."
How someone reacts to Xander saying “Kick his ass,” always says a lot, in my experience.
Spike and Joyce will always be an iconic duo.
Something that took me a long to realize but that's such excellent subtle writing is in Becoming Part 1 when Angel as a human follows Darla into the alleyway, right before she bites him, ultimately killing him she says "close your eyes". Here at the end of Becoming Part 2 after Buffy realizes what she has to do she says "close your eyes" before stabbing Angel and, from our perspective, killing him.
Great catch 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾🤯
Buffy’s conversation with Joyce about being a slayer is one of my favorites. Huge emotional punch there. Also, Xander not telling Buffy about the spell Willow’s performing is such a horrible, selfish decision. He let her go into battle without knowing the love of her life might get his soul back at some point. Like, just let her know that she might need to be prepared to have to kill a re-ensouled Angel (something that would be emotionally devastating for her). It doesn’t even matter if he thinks Buffy shouldn’t be trying to keep Angel on the ropes so the spell can work: she deserves to know the choice she might have to make.
I think it's hard, as adults, to understand what motivates Buffy to run away, but I do feel like she's blamed herself for everything since Angel lost his soul. Jenny's death, Kendra's death, Xander's broken arm, Willow's possible brain damage, Giles being tortured... and now killing Angel, again. Her mother didn't mean it, but Buffy was at the end of her rope there. Her mother needed time, but it was just one thing too many for Buffy. She was thrown out of school, wanted for murder and her mother threw her out of her own house... it's a lot. She didn't know what else to do. Didn't feel she could turn to anyone.
Also her mother always thought she was a trouble maker, and thought Buffy killed someone... Twice
I like the scene where Joyce and Spike are chatting and their outfits are colour co-ordinated. Black Jacket over a red shirt/blouse.
It was explained in the scene where Angel was first cursed with a soul by the Romani, that he would be disoriented for the first several minutes after getting his soul. But that the memories of what he had done would come to him shortly after. So the scene at the mansion fits exactly what the Romani elder told Angel 100 years before.
One of my favorite moments /almost) but didn’t quite make the edit. In the shot @34:13 where Spike is peeling out, watch his hands (in the full scene obvs; not the edit). He puts his hands on the wheel, and after a moment one of them winds up in the sun. He then recoils (but not in an “calling attention to it” sort of way) and repositions his hands so they’ll stay in the shade. It’s a teeny little moment with zero impact on the story, and I love that it’s there.
About Buffy's showdown with her mother: Buffy is on the battlefield. She literally does not have the time to sit down and explain to her mother what's going on. Spike is on the move, and Giles might break at any moment and tell Angel how to awaken Acathla. Soldiers might debate the wisdom of the orders before and after the battle, but on the field, it is follow orders, no questions asked, or everyone dies.
Neither of them says the right things. Buffy, under extreme pressure, can't come up with a concise explanation that won't sound crazy (what would you think if someone in real life told you they were a Vampire Slayer?), and Joyce hopes the "don't come back" ultimatum will give Buffy enough pause to sit down. It doesn't -- there's no time -- but she leaves the door open for Joyce to holler after her. But Joyce is too shocked to do that, so Buffy takes her at her word.
(It's been pointed out that Buffy's revelation is akin to "coming out", and Joyce's reaction helps sell the analogy: "Have you tried not being a Slayer?" Being more traditional minded, I didn't see the similarity myself until it was pointed out.)
Nice comment on the reason Buffy left the door open. I never thought of that. I thought she left it open out of disrespect or the fact that her mom said not to come back, so she left it open to see her walk off
Fun fact: in the incantation scene when Willow is going all crazy with the magic she actually starts speaking Romanian. Pronouncing it very badly, i didnt realized it was Romanian until i saw the subtitles, but still. Actual Romanian.
Idk if I’d prefer her to use proper pronunciation or improper because willow doesn’t speak Romanian but she’s supposed to be possessed so she should be able to speak it fluently??? Idk
@Sin_cities honestly? I think it's pretty cool that they actually bothered to speak Romanian for once when they could have just gotten lazy and used gibberish instead.
Its a nice touch.
I remember I spent years trying to find the end song to this episode. So beautiful and it accompanies the heartbreak Buffy is experiencing, both for Angel and leaving her mom and friends behind, so well.
Getting back to the issue, the nineties is when a lot of US police departments started undergoing threat response programs devised by an insane militaristic conspiracy nut who believed, based on research done on _soldiers_ who were _occupying war zones,_ that the police had to be ready to respond to an attempt on their lives at any time. De-escalation techniques were de-emphasized and a lot of American police officers had a very specific mindset instilled in them - namely, that they should go about regular police work with the same attitude you would if you were a soldier in the Vietnam war. Given that extremely messed up situation, and that Buffy had shown herself to be both a very skilled martial artist and surprisingly strong, it, sadly, kind of tracks that one of them might pull out a gun.
But, in this fictional world, Sunnyvale isn't South Los Angeles or Baghdad, despite having a Hellmouth. It's a suburban neighborhood. So having military-style police in a normally docile locale is overkill.
@@Madbandit77 It's not a "normally docile locale." Did you forget when Snyder was talking to the Chief of Police in "I Only Have Eyes for You"? The chief knows they live on a Hellmouth.
@@knowledge-girl But not the whole police force. Snyder noted they're stupid. If they weren't, they would have handled the Hellmouth already.
@@Madbandit77 They may not know about the Hellmouth, but they have to have noticed the incredibly high mortality rate. The school paper even has an obituary section and it's not like most of the deaths are natural but are rather violent.
@@knowledge-girl And yet they have done squat about said morality rate. It may be JW's commentary on the ineptitude of authoritarian figures, but it's a bad look when it comes to talking about the larger world.
Spikes funny quote of the episode is “you hit me with an axe one time. Get the hell away from my daughter.” He said it so calmly like it’s no big deal.
For sure, it was priceless 😄 - Maria
I agree one of the pivotal moments of this season finale is where Angelus taunts buffy saying no weapons no friends no hope..take all that away and what's left. And then her replying after catching the sword he's about to ram through her by the blade and answering "Me" and then pushing the handle of the sword back into his face.
"Have another drink mom." This line deserves some comment. Joyce drinks. She drinks enough for Buffy to notice. She might not get stumbling around blind drunk. But she drinks too much, or Buffy wouldn't have made that comment.
She made the comment because her mother was drunk at that time. Admittedly a bad choice on her mother's part, but not indicative of a larger problem. I mean Joyce's entire worldview was realigning.
@airawynsummers the comment only stings if there is an underlying truth to it.
@@spamfilter32The truth that she was drinking at that very moment?
I don't understand why some people need to declare someone an alcoholic just because they're visibly consuming alcohol. Might as well call Giles an alcoholic because he got drunk that one time.
@airawynsummers not because she was drinking 1 time, but because Buffy commented on it. There is no reason to comment on it unless there is an underlying truth to it. "Have another drink," doesn't sting unless it's something Joyce does regularly. The fact that Joyce was drinking at all in this situation is itself indicative.
Valid and as an adult, given all that Joyce has been going through with (from her perspective) a delinquent daughter who burned down a gym, had to transfer to a new school, is still out at all hours, getting into trouble regularly with god knows what (probably gangs), moving her whole business, the breakdown of her marriage and the divorce and now trying to do her best as a single mom in a new town with her kid who won't actually tell her anything, it's very reasonable that she had a few drinks too many on occasion to deal (not in a healthy way but understandable, a lot of people do that kind of thing). Doesn't make her an alcoholic, for sure, but it stings all the same when your kid is calling you out on your coping mechanism so brutally and all the trouble is because of that kid.
I understand why Xander doesn’t pass on Willow’s message - from his pov - but it wasn’t his call to make. Can’t help but think it contributed to Buffy feeling like she was on her own and couldn’t go to anyone, thinking that no one would be willing to be on Angel’s side, or understand that he came back for a few moments. Her mom kicker her out, Giles of course us just been tortured, and she believes that Willow and Xander both wanted Angel dead.
This was based on petty jealousy on Xander's part, despite having Cordelia as a consolation girlfriend. He couldn't get Buffy. Why should Angel? In a later season, he'll understand how Buffy felt.
Xander is selfish to the core. He held a grudge against Buffy For many reasons, and was jealous of Angel. From the moment Buffy choses Angel Xander is always against him and thinks the worst.
This finale is so good, and a perfect segue into season 3 (my favorite!). Joyce and Spike are my absolute favorite pairing of the entire series, and watching you guys watch them brought a smile to my face!
It took me 20 years to understand why Buffy HAD to kill Angel with the sword (and not, say, push him into the portal or just pour a bit of his blood or something), so I'm passing on my "wisdom":
The sword is like a key and Alfalfa's heart is like the keyhole. The "key" had to be placed back in the "keyhole" in order to relock the portal. And since Angel is worthy, his blood had to be on the sword for it to work. That's what Whistler was trying to explain when he called after her that she gotta know how to use it.
I just saved you 20 years of wondering. You're welcome.
You have to remember, when this all finally goes down, it ALL falls on Buffy. As far as she knows, Xander and Willow tell her to kill Angel. Giles is down for the count. Angel has opened a portal to hell that only he can close. And Joyce kicked Buffy out. She thinks she has no one and she does NOT want to continue to be a slayer because it costs her everything. Again...
Becoming part 2 was a terrific ending to S2 setting up the brilliant S3. Here we see Buffy faced with the ultimate heart breaking choice to kill her lover or save the world. We of course know she will make the right choice. Willow comes through at the end, but Buffy has to go through with the final act. So poignant at the end when from afar Buffy sees her friends but decides to leave Sunnydale, Joyce too is so regretful as she knows Buffy is now gone after their terrible row, all against the backdrop of Sarah McLachlan's beautiful haunting ballad Full Of Grace. I think we can see you are now hooked on the show, as are all reactors that enter 'The Buffyverse' and it only gets better. You will love S3 it's incredible!
Sarah McLachlin song’s Full of Grace at the end is so haunting.
I mostly enjoy watching y'all react to this, but I really think that you sometimes forget this is A) a fantasy show and not meant to be realistic, and B) about teenagers who don't know better than to live as if they'll never die and push themselves beyond reason.
You gotta remember that there are people that use chainsaws to carve bears and whatnot out of logs. So you could use it.
The only way to stop Acathla was to sacrifice Angel to it, it was already awakened so it was the only thing she could do at that time she literally sacrificed her love knowing full well he was "Normal" Angel again to save the world x
I legitimately thought that sentence about the cops shooting teenagers was going to end with "but not _white_ teenagers."
Given what they've probably seen policing on a hell mouth Im guessing they learn quick threats come in all types
My computer literally crashed while editing a reaction a minute ago and I thought: "ohhh that's a sign for me to go see Sam & Maria's reaction" and here I am, procrastinating but very happy!!🤫
So Xander gets his wrist broken and ends up unconscious on the floor Kendra is killed Willow gets knocked out by a shelf of books dropping on her and Cordelia just magically makes it out unscathed
There are people who carve complex and intricate sculptures with chainsaws.
Your channel is super comforting to me. I became obsessed with buffy in high school but couldn’t convince any of my friends to watch it with me. I feel like I’m experiencing the show with friends for the first time when i watch your vids 🥰
Thanks so much 😊
I get it. No one wanted to watch Stargate with me in school haha - Sam
Such a heartbreaking finale.
The moment of Spike uncomfortably sitting next to Joyce is a great moment.
"Have you tried not being a slayer" and "It's because you didn't have a strong father figure, isn't it" are both said before Joyce tries to understand what a slayer is. Similar to a parent not caring to comprehend a child who is LGBTQ (although at the time it would have just been gay, but that's beside the point). And when she claims to want to know, she isn't actually listening to Buffy. Buffy would have tried to explain later, but she is a seventeen year-old girl with the weight of the world on her shoulders, who has an immediate job to do, who just heard her mother kick her out of the house. Whether Joyce meant it or not, Buffy was upset enough at the words to take it literally, which is why Joyce shouldn't have said it, whether in desperation to keep Buffy there or whether she meant it, it was bad parenting: falling flat on the dismount rather than shaky like she claims in _The Witch._
Snyder knows about the supernatural and specifically the hellmouth, but nothing ever states he knows Buffy is the slayer.
Xander saying, "Willow said kick his ass" after saying, "Yeah well she's dead" about Jenny to Giles an episode earlier doesn't make him look good. He has clear Angel issues and is using Angelus as a reason to fuel them. He wouldn't have used Willow's name if he knew saying, "Willow said kick his ass" was a good idea. Using Willow's name makes it harder for Buffy to trace to Xander, and she would blame Willow should she ever question it. The excuse of he changed his mind of what to tell Buffy after saying, "Willow said..." doesn't change any of that.
The main excuse I have seen people give for Xander lying to Buffy is that Xander didn't trust Buffy could kill Angelus. But Xander has seen evidence that that is false. Buffy's arc during the Angelus storyline is to learn and deal with her feelings and issues concerning Angel:
1. In _Innocence_ she tells Angelus "Give me time." If _Becoming_ happened next, I would agree with Xander a little more, but it wasn't next.
2. In _Phases,_ dealing with Oz's werewolf issue allows Buffy to start the "time." She is nowhere near ready yet as Angelus "sends his love" with a vampire in the form of a classmate, and Buffy freezes. So, if _Becoming_ happened here, I would also agree with Xander a little more, but again, it wasn't next.
3. In _Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered;_ Xander's issues allow Buffy a break from Angelus' Valentine's Day plans. Buffy also starts reading up on Angelus' past. Xander being aware of that means I disagree with Xander thinking Buffy isn't ready. _Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered_ is when she actively starts getting ready.
4. In _Passion,_ Xander says he deserves something for telling his friends he told them so before Angelus showed up. As said before, and this shows, Xander is using Angelus as an excuse for his Angel jealousy and in claiming he is correct about Angel being at fault for Angelus' actions. He is blinded to the fact that Buffy has come another step closer to being able to deal with Angelus because he feels justified in Giles "getting himself killed" being a good thing, not realizing, in anger over Jenny's death (anger that becomes meaningless in _Becoming Part 1_ when he says "Yeah well she's dead), the fact that Giles will die if Buffy isn't ready to confront Angelus herself. So, once again, I disagree with Xander.
5. In _Killed by Death,_ Xander witnesses Buffy hunting for Angelus while sick. That is enough to disagree with Xander. Doing so while sick wasn't a good idea, but it showed the determination proving Buffy has come another step closer.
6. In _I Only Have Eyes For You,_ Buffy releases everything holding her back by dealing with her guilt over turning Angel into Angelus. One step further away from the Xander's theory.
7. In _Go Fish,_ Buffy takes Angelus on and only doesn't kill him because he throws Gage at her. Xander doesn't see this one, but it shows she is actually ready and no longer just getting ready.
8. In the previous episode, Xander has issue with Jenny Calendar having come close to restoring Angel's soul and everyone (not just Buffy) deciding to try re-ensoulment before attempting to kill Angelus. He shows his opinion negatively (as opposed to Kendra who expresses the exact same opinion healthily). He had listened to Buffy say she was "done waiting" (showing Xander she was ready as he was in the cemetary when she said that) and therefore reacts badly to their safer idea over trying his taking on an evil vampire to kill him plan. No one with either opinion could have known what the outcome would be.
9. In this episode, Buffy is ready and has been so for two episodes. She isn't aware the spell is being recast after it was interrupted. But Xander still chooses to distrust her. Said distrust is another one of my issues against Xander. Misplaced distrust, as over nine episodes she has moved from not dealing with it to ready to kill and he is still dealing with his own issues of jealousy towards Angel.
Xander is really saying, "Willow said kick his ass," out of jealousy all while limiting information to Buffy, who is about to go to the front lines of battle. Even if you don't know the outcome, not telling someone part of the plan is a bad idea. We don't know what the outcome would have been if Xander had told Buffy the truth, but we do know going into battle without all the information can hurt and this battle had a bad outcome. I think with the information, Buffy would have gone in there with the strategy of not taking her eye off Angelus and not letting him anywhere near Acathla, rather than worrying over minions. But no matter the outcome, Xander didn't do the correct thing.
David Boreanaz's stunt double during the fighting, to me, is more noticeable here than any other noticeable stunt double moment. It's interesting to see Angel with sideburns in the wide shots.
Why did her mom kick her out? I mean I know it’s a lot to take in but that’s a bad way to handle the situation.
@@SamSeth1996 Some people claim she was desperate to keep Buffy there and saying it was a last ditch effort to do so, while others say Joyce had just had it with all the unknown and couldn't handle what she now knew slaying-wise. But, as I stated, either way, she shouldn't have said the words. I consider it bad parenting either way.
@@Buffy8Fan I don't think it's so much bad parenting as it is an out-of-one's element when your child has an extraordinary destiny (despite LGBTQ fans resonating with Buffy's leaving home, the allegory of being homosexual to fighting vampires is a bit flimsy). An early third season episode could have had a heart-to-heart talk between Buffy and Joyce, but instead there's misunderstanding.
@@SamSeth1996 No mom is perfect. They screw it up too. I was in that situation. My mom said something similar to me and I took it as being thrown out at the time. In hindsight I realize it was more a bluff, a weak parental threat that if I wanted to live in her home it was by her rules. My teen brain interpreted that as anything else meant I had to leave, period. No excuses, no questions, my way or the highway kind of thought. I was 17 and really thought she was done with me. Honestly it's more common, or at least was at the time, than one might think.
The line that that set things off before the actual argument made a lot of LGBTQIA+ people resonate with this particular scene was when Joyce said "Have you tried not being the slayer." During that time and even well before that time if someone came out a parent would ask "Have you tried not being gay". It is a line that was also used in one of the X-Men movies about being a mutant.
ugh! RUclips just showed this to me today even though i’ve been watching within the hour of new episodes! I might need to turn notifications on!
Omg, omg, omg! So glad I'm not there with you cause I am gonna ugly cry so much! But seriously, this episode is stunning with incredible scenes, one after the other.
It is a good one. Hope you don't cry too much 😊✨ - Maria
Hi it’s Seth!
Hey Seth 😊 - Sam
The cultural reset/classic Buffy episode I will never miss a chance to watch this episode!!
I appreciate you both and rewatching this show and every week I'm tearing up... 😢enough rambling you again are my friends in head much love...what is going to happen xoxo
Thanks for the support Anthony 😊 - Sam
Non-American viewers: The cop shot at her while she was running away? That's unrealistic.
American viewers: Finally, a scene that's grounded in real life!
Exactly.
Who said it was unrealistic? - Sam
@@TheBuffSummer You did note that American cops will shoot at a teenager, but you seemed to think it wouldn't happen if there were no evidence. Maybe you were just expressing that it's outrageous that this happens, which it is, but I had the impression at the time that you thought it was unbelievable.
I stated that cops shooting teens is a definite thing that happens and then Maria and I aired our grievances with the situation itself. No one said it wouldn't happen with no evidence. We explained why it shouldn't - Sam
@@TheBuffSummer My apologies. I obviously misinterpreted what was being said.
Excellent job with season 2. Hopefully Season 3 will come out, SCREAMING!!! LOL. Nice job, BOTH of you.
re: "no friends"
you're forgetting that angel had drusilla and crew put them in the hospital.
Why do you think we’re forgetting this? - Maria
@@TheBuffSummer
33:50
I said "what do you mean no friends?" Because she still has friends.... Having friends who support you still provides strength, they don't need to be with you at the time. It doesn't matter if he was saying that he took them out of this particular fight, it's a weak argument. Trying to make her feel alone and vulnerable at that point was a poor angle to take because she never needed them helping her in a fight to begin with - Sam
@@TheBuffSummer
"it's a weak argument."
everything angel does is weak.
I think the no friends, family , hope wasn't referring to in general but he meant in that moment when she's about to die, she is all alone
But she's all alone in like half her fights anyway. Risking her life whilst she's alone isn't exactly a new thing for her - Sam
I’m sure I’ve missed some context somewhere, but I never understood why it was only Angel’s blood that could open Acathla. Did Whistler explain and I’ve never paid attention? Or is it just the blood of the demon that wants to extract the sword has to be used and Angel just happened to be that guy in the moment?
can't wait for you guys to get to season 5!
I completely forgot this was the episode joyce finds out, amazing.. Also guys dont stress about people coming at you over the shooting at a teenager comment, I completely agree with you that they overreacted. It makes sense that some vampires can hypnotize humans, its a big part of alot of vampire type lore. Also how do you sleeper hold a vampire, when they dont breathe;)
36:17 my guess now that I’m rewatching that is that it’s another way to avoid whatever that demon’s name is to rise back out. If there’s no Angel, there’s no apocalypse of this demon
Poor she had so much to deal with, being wanted for murder, her mother kicked her, expelled from school, and to killed someone she loved
There is only one series finale that they knew they were definitely renewed so this ending is openend but if they didn't come back would be a somewhat satisfying end but I'm glad we got more.
Every time I re-watch this show, I think maybe I'm being too harsh on Xander and maybe this is the time I will understand him more....this time was still not that time. I know I'm being dramatic but I don't think I can ever forgive what he did here. He has hated and been jealous of Angel from the beginning. I truly believe, even if Angelus hadn't killed Jenny, that Xander's actions in this episode would have been exactly the same and I just can't get on board with it. He has his moments of comic relief and being a good friend but overall I really can't stand him.
Nice reaction
I do think Buffy just wanted to give Angel one last good moment before she had to send him to hell which is part of the reason she didn’t explain anything. The other reason is probably just she didn’t know how, it’s all so overwhelming. Imagine this was real life, who wouldn’t be overwhelmed? And who would handle communication perfectly - very few if anyone and also I think she wanted to give herself one last loving moment with the man she loves before she has to figure out where she belongs in the world once this is over, sadly. Just my take on it though but again good reaction. I enjoyed it :)
This is funny because on another show I like, a girl's terrible secret is that she's a drummer in a band.
If you replace the word slayer with gay Buffy comes out to her mum and her mum doesn't accept her. Now it was a shock and Buffy could have handled it better but she is only 17 and is running off adrenalin and has a lot of pressure on her shoulders to save her mentor the world and defeat her first love so I give Buffy all the slack. She Buffy and Joyce relationship from here should be interesting.
Agreed, the burden of maturity is on Joyce and she really did fail to be a mom here, she gets better but this always tainted my view of Joyce
Yeah, I think that moment is really just a huge buildup of emotion and pressure for the upcoming fight. She’s frustrated and stressed, and Buffy doesn’t feel like she has time to sit down and explain. I also feel like her “you still haven’t figured it out?” line is kind of valid considering Buffy knows that her mom has been repressing and actively trying to forget information pointing towards the supernatural since they moved here. Is it fair to blame Joyce for it? Maybe not. But considering how Buffy must be feeling in that moment, I can understand it.
Yeah, I think Angelus was pretty much being humorous about the chainsaws.
For me this was the real Spike pivot time in the series, where we start to actually like him. He's a vampire, but he's not out to end the world, really, he just wants to keep having fun with his little gang of bloodsuckers and his bird and ending the world would kind of spoil it all. Plus he really hates that Angel guy, even more so when he's actually being a dick haha
A lot of bad things happen in this two-parter. And most of them I blame on Xander. This may be a less than popular opinion, but hear me out here.
Buffy and Willow find Miss Calendar's Disk. They are talking with the others about the possibility of restoring Angel's soul and then...Xander opens up, spitting venom, not quite shutting it down but its relegated to a "backup" in case Buffy isn't able to kill Angel.
Now, suppose Xander had been reasonable instead of a poisonous little git. They would have had some time to think things through. One of the things to think through is Miss Calendar's death. Why, exactly, did Angel target her. It should be obvious to them that it was deliberately to stop her performing the ritual restoring his soul. The only thing is, she told no one about that so how would Angel know? And that would bring up the thought of Drusilla and her visions. And if she could see that attempt would she not see this attempt? And would Angel not try to stop it? That's all stuff that would fall right out of thinking things through, a thinking things through that didn't happen because of Xander.
Now, given what they figure out from thinking things through, the immolation-o-gram takes on a different light. Buffy wants to stop him from the threatened killing. That's why she went to fight him ("You fall for it every time"--but what else was she supposed to do given what she knew at the time?) only maybe she wouldn't fall for it if things among the Scoobies were a little calmer. Maybe she'd realize that restoring his soul would stop the killings just as effectively if not more so, than fighting him. And that means the focus is on Willow. And having considered that Drusilla was behind Angel becoming aware of the first attempt to restore his soul, they'd want to be wary of her becoming aware again and an attempt being made to stop it.
That puts Buffy and Kendra both guarding Willow and the restoration attempt. Now, they would be wrong about why an attack would be made on the library, but the result would be that Kendra and Buffy, being in place to guard Willow, would also be in place to guard Giles, the actual target. Would Drusilla's team have been able to overcome both slayers? Highly doubtful. Drusilla fails. She might escape, or she might not. In either case, Giles is not kidnapped and Kendra is not killed. And everythingthat follows from those two events don't happen.
So, had Xander simply been reasonable about Angel the following would not have happened:
Kendra would not have died
Willow would not have been sent to the hospital
Xander wouldn't have had his arm broken (okay, that's a downside but we can't have everything)
Giles would not have been tortured.
Angel would no longer be trying to raise Acathla so that wouldn't have happened.
Buffy would not be wanted for Kendra's murder.
Buffy wouldn't be actually guilty of resisting arrest and assaulting a police officer. (Innocence of the crime you're being arrested for does _not_ absolve you of those crimes.)
Buffy would not have been kicked out of her house.
Buffy would not have been expelled (this time--I'm sure Snyder would sooner or later have found an excuse, but it would have been a lot weaker and sooner overcome).
Spike and Drusilla would still have been around, but would they have stayed around? Drusilla's carrying on with Angelus has already created a rift. James Marsters is on record as saying that he played Spike as being attracted to Buffy from the start (which explains why such a badass vampire as Spike keeps failing in his efforts against Buffy--deep down he doesn't really want to kill her). They would probably break up soon anyway so we still get the Spike we see in Seasons 3 onward.
So it all comes down to Xander. And the thing is, Xander doesn't have a lot of excuse. He knows the difference between Angel (with soul) and Angelus (without). "He's not the same guy you knew" (Phases). He just doesn't care. "At the end of the day, I just think you're a vampire." (Prophecy Girl) "I hated Angel long before you guys jumped on the bandwagon." (Passion). And the thing is, he's also a hypocrite. He doesn't want to accept responsibility for what he did during The Pack. Yeah, he only ate the pig, not Principal Flutie, but the only reason he didn't do the latter is that he was too busy trying to commit felony SA against Buffy. Sure, he was possessed and therefore not responsible, but the same is the case with Angel. Angel, without a soul is a demon and Angel, with a soul, is not responsible for what the demon did.
So, pretty much all Xander's fault.
"This is insane. You need help."
And, back in the episode Ted "You'll spend your best dating years behind the walls of a mental institution."
And those are the reason why Buffy hasn't told Joyce.
Won't say more than that because...spoilers.
@tiannaconstantine9606 Well, that's certainly a take.
First, Buffy. Yeah, she bears some responsibility. And, indeed, she recognizes that. Indeed, the whole point of "I Only Have Eyes for You" even for the part that was not her fault; she had no way to know that consummating her relationship with Angel would turn him. So, she takes responsibility for her actions.
Miss Calendar. Don't think she actually can be blamed for Angel's turning. She didn't know what would happen to turn Angel until after it happened, so she couldn't have warned them. Yes, she could have told them she was sent by the Calderash people to watch Angel, but all that would have accomplished was to get her ostracized from the group (although likely she would have become Xander's new best friend). Now, that might mean the specific sequence of events that led to Buffy and Angel getting together might not happen (or it might--it was Buffy's dream that took her and Angel to the factory, not anything Miss Calendar said) but with the course they were on it was going to happen before too much longer. And so Angel would still be turned.
And, yes, Angelus and Drusilla (and Spike who set things in motion) have ultimate responsibility, but that does not excuse the viper in their midst, who undercuts, underplays, and works against Buffy being able to take the most effective action. He doesn't get a pass. By this point, Angelus and Drusilla are already out there. Xander's actions directly led to outcomes far worse than they would otherwise have been, and yet he gets a pass both within the show and among much of fandom.
I don't give him that pass.
Short version, Had the scene in the library went differently the following would'nt have happened. have a longer version to this, but it's getting late i might type it tomorrow.
I think the cops are referring to her burning down a gym with her having a history.
the whole convo with Joyce is 100% intentional queer allegory for coming out, but imo it doesn't work super well, because Joyce doesn't any previous knowledge of the slayer being a thing that exists or vampires being real, so her confusion and reaction is a lot more understandable
Also, the allegory of coming out as LGBTQ to admitting to being a paranormal exterminator is flimsy. It does those resonate to those who were in the closet at the time the episode aired.
My biggest issue in this was the sleeper hold. Vampires don’t breath nor do they have a heartbeat, it shouldn’t work.
But Buffy didn't have the time to have a conversation with Joyce? She had the world to save.
17:45 i love that scene 😂😂
This was a (coded) coming out story - that is why it is handled so "badly" because these things often went badly in those days, still do depending on circumstances. Just wanted to point that out here.
This was such a good episode.
Can't wait for y'all to start season 3
Silly question, but why don't you get one of those things that you can plug two headphones in?
One Of Faves!😢😮🫣🔮🥰💗🖥
I haven’t seen this one!
Season 3 was my favorite for the longest time after I watched the entire series. You have a lot of great episodes and stuff coming up for sure. My question about your reaction about the second season is what are your top 3 episodes of the season and why. Alternatively which episode or episodes did you find didn't work as well or were your least favorite? Keep up the good work. I love to see people react to Buffy and Angel, my favorite shows of all time.
and zander never recovered from this. this is where my pure hate started and never left.
This. I already didn't like him, but this cemented my hatred of him. I'll never forgive him for many things, but this is at the top of the list.
OH HOW I LOVE SPIKE
I’m with you 😄 - Maria
4:20 marvel should take example of her undercover outfit
American cops being trigger happy is an old trope (and probably is grounded in reality, to some extent). Consider the fourth episode of _Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ (radio show in 1979, television show in 1981), where the enthusiastic cops that want to shoot at the main characters are clearly stereotypical American, where nearly everyone else in the show has a British accent of one sort or another.
In this case, though, a suspect that punches a cop and escapes from arrest, after hearing from the principal that she's a menace -- I think the cops might almost be justified in jumping to that conclusion.
“‘Kick his ass.’” The point Xander usurped the position of big bad of the season. Unlike the Master before him, he won.
Hopefully without giving away spoilers - Just curious if you guys are going to watch Angel when that point comes up? Would love to see Sam’s reaction to some characters/character growth that occurs on that show.
They stated very early on that they will be watching 'Angel', too. The last time they discussed this with fans, they hoped to do both shows concurrently once Angel leaves.
@@ObserverAmanda ah awesome, thanks! I couldn’t remember if it had been addressed and the concurrent watching was my next question lol.
I was waiting for Sam's reactions to many of the writing choices in this episode. I mostly agree with him.
I was not planning on discussing this until I saw the number of ridiculous comments about the cop shooting at Buffy. I am aware that not all cops always follow procedures (or laws) and some cops will be unnecessary violent, but any cop doing what that one did would get into trouble. Buffy did assult a cop, but shooting at her would never be considered justified since no cop's (or any other person's) life was in danger because she was running away unarmed. That is not even mentioning that officer did not have a clear shot at Buffy and was also shooting towards Principal Synder. This would never be considered a "good" shooting by any standard.
Oh my god. Thank you so much for this comment 🙏🏻 - Maria
I agree that is how it should be, but it unfortunately doesn’t always happen. There was a guy near where I lived who was pulled over for a routine traffic stop, he had warrants for delinquent child support payments and panicked and ran away. The cop who’d pulled him over shot him in the back. Dude didn’t have a weapon of any kind and was not a threat. Nothing happened to that cop.
"Im Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. And you are...?"
❤🧡💛💚💙💜
Im not a huge fan of this episode until we get to the showdown. From then on, I love it.
Concerning the "coming out scene", I understand Joyce having trouble to adjust. The first reaction of my mother when I came out wasn't great either but after just a few hours she was more open minded and we discussed about it calmly. So yeah I understand Joyce point of view until "don't ever think of coming back". Kicking out your own child for being different is one of the worst thing a parent can do. I had a hard time forgiving Joyce for that (and I really love her character). Worst Joyce's moment of the entire show in my opinion.
20:09 this gives very coming out allusion
I was so angry at Xander! 🤬
The problem with the sleeper hold is that we learned in the Season 1 finale that they don't breathe so the sleeper hold shouldn't work. This is one of the issues the writers use whatever fits the story.
For sure, considering that is what Spike eventually did 😄 - Maria
Vampires bleed when cut. Male vampires can achieve erection (or nothing from Innocence on would have happened). Even if their heart doesn't beat, they have something that serves in the place of circulation. It's not much by way of explanation, but it's usually better to leave such things vague.
I figured he cut off the blood flow. Vampire physiology in this show is vague enough I think it works.
This is so messed up, but maybe instead of a small chainsaw, an electric knife? 6:59 😬
A chainsaw is loud, which is one of the five main torture groups. Unless loud means something else, though I think it means both. (The five main torture groups is a reference to something much later, so no more detail here.)
Since you were so busy talking - let me note - she *did* assault a cop which is part of what led to the response of force. Shooting *is* over the top and honestly not something that the police would consider legal.
Just got to that scene. I don’t think you guys mentioned Joyce and Spike in same colours. That must have been a choice. Maybe to make Buffy more isolated?
You reacted to Xander punching a bad guy with a broken arm. There's actually quite a number of times on the show when Xander seems to have abilities beyond a normal human even though it's never acknowledged by the characters.
There is a section of the fandom that think it's possible that Xander might, unknowingly, have some nonhuman ancestry.
Possible spoiler :
Another bit of 'evidence' that's sometimes pointed at is the whole 'demon magnet' thing.
You guys also seem to have missed the very blatant homosexual coming out parallel that Buffy's reveal to her mother as the Slayer was doing. Joyce literally asks her "have you tried not being a Slayer" . . . . which used to be a very prevalent question asked of young gay people. Buffy comes back with "don't you think I'd rather *not* be this way?" (paraphrasing here.) This was textbook how Hollywood especially represented what it was like (and honestly at least some truth) to how a young gay person was often received by their family.
I believe both Buffy and Joyce acting at least somewhat out of character to what they've shown before was done specifically to draw the comparison.
Buffy actually does have a history of violence. It’s not just what Snyder says to the cops, or the Ted episode, she has an official record. She burned down the gym of her former school and that’s why they had to move. They mention it in season one I think. So the cops are probably going off of that. At least that’s what I always assumed 🤷♀️
How do the cops know that just responding to a disturbance call? We don’t know why exactly the cops were called and how much they know about what’s happening and whether they recognise Buffy from the previous incident
Edit: they actually might not know anything because they asked Snyder whether he knows this girl like they just found her at the scene of the crime and weren’t looking for her specifically - Maria
@@TheBuffSummerI was actually referring to the scene where the cops come to her house and talk to Joyce. That’s where they say the line I was referring to “your daughter has a history of violence”. Since they are at her house looking for her, I assume they received her name from Snyder and ran her through the system at that point. I didn’t mean the opening scene at the school. 👍😊
Oh I see. Gotcha. Yep, at that point I’d think they have more info 👍🏻😊 - Maria
buffy not holding back still could not stop angelus from activating it. While xander not telling her is messed up it is also ultimately the better option. buffy not being focused could have got her killed and the world as well.
Police in the US choosing to shoot at a possible murder suspect who just assaulted a fellow officer and is running away?
Maybe it's different where you guys are at but how is that not a given? Shoot on site was a thing, esp in the 90s and early 2000s.
And the constant talking over and the pause to analyse & question every scene, that's your thing, sure, but it's obvious esp in this episode that you guys miss important subtexts and even plotlines laid earlier because of that and the decision to not let the show flow a bit more. Sometimes less is more and I sincerely hope when THAT episode arrives (An episode which Maria no doubt may be familiar with) we won't see this constant talking over or pause to analysing every little scene as it will diminish greatly your experience of that episode.
I hate this episode! Noooo! 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
Did you know Dolly Parton is an executive producer of the show.
Whistler was an unnecessary and annoying character.
When my friend gave up twenty years plus of friendship, thanks a lot Covid!
I’m sorry I thought she was gonna die whoever that was u k in the hospital.