Hey so you guys missed a few key points, highlighted by Ryan saying he’d pick the .450 Bushmaster for gas gun. The .458 SOCOM was designed from the ground up, at the behest of those who requested it, to run reliably out of standard USGI magazines. Being a bottle neck cartridge, it fits into and runs out of 30 round USGI magazines, as a ten round single stack mag, very well. The 450 bushmaster, being straight walled, and overall skinnier, will not fit into curved 30 round mags, nor is it large enough to actually work with the feed lips in a typical AR mag. Ask anyone you know with a .450 Bushmaster AR, they’ll tell you how much of a pain it is to find magazines for that gun. The resurgence in popularity of the .450 Bushmaster is solely due to it being a straight wall cartridge, in states that require that for deer hunting, and it’s being chambered almost exclusively in bolt guns.
@@blackwind743 So from everything I’ve read (I only have personal experience with the .458 Socom) many manufacturers have tried to make 10rd mags that work with the .450 bushmaster, to no avail. I do think someone made a modified Tapco Intrafuse mag with so so success, but they’re no longer in production and I think they go for $50+ or something ridiculous. So with the .450 bushmaster you’re essentially limited to straight mags that max out at 7rds capacity and have proprietary followers and feed lips. To contrast, the .458 Socom loads right into a 30rds USGI mag and works great. Truly the .450 Bushmaster is a pretty decent round, but it’s at home in a bolt gun, the .458 Socom is really just the best choice for a gas gun. In my opinion that is.
I only needed 3 "special" parts for my .458 SOCOM build. Tromix Barrel w/extension, big bore upper that has an opened up ejection port, and a Tromix .458 modified bolt. Lancer and GI mags run fine. PMAGs run okay with shorter cartridges. It was my first AR build and runs great. Great hog gun; Barns 300g TTSX bullets are accurate and awesome. Recoil is less than a 12 gauge. Don't let these guys scare you off if you want a big bore AR! It would have been more popular, but the big companies blocked SAMMI approval to push the inferior 450 BM cartridges they were invested in.
458 SOCOM was made to use the .458 cal rifle bullets (45-70, 458 win mag, ect.) and can fire heavy bullets up to 600gr subsonic and deliver 1300+ ft/lbs muzzle energy with subsonic rounds. It was designed to deliver rifle energy in suppressed CQB applications and was supposedly utilized in limited capacity among some special forces/contractors. It came out after 450 bushmaster and was more popular than 450 BM originally. 450 BM uses .452 cal pistol bullets and cannot deliver the same kind of energy with subsonic ammo. 450 BM became more popular because of straight wall hunting and eventually had more support making it a better option for supersonic and hunting applications and will fire lighter 250gr bullets at a slightly higher velocity than 458 SOCOM. The 458 SOCOM is arguably still a better option for an AR platform due to more reliable feeding from the bottleneck design and more powerful subsonic performance when fired suppressed, but does not have anywhere near the support of 450 BM.
It may be a lead balloon, but its MY Lead Balloon. The .458 SOCOM actually started its history with the .458 X 1.5 Barnes as a belted cartridge in a suppressed bolt gun during Vietnam. It fired a subsonic 500 grain bullet. It was highly effective in terms of ballistics, however the weight and size made it less than suitable for it's role. Hence, it drifted off into obscurity. Then comes along Mogadishu and Operation Gothic Serpent. The Task Force Rangers reported having ineffective ammunition against the opposing forces. So, through informal discussion with Marty ter Weene of Teppo Jutsu and Tony Rumore of Tromix, The .458 SOCOM was born. It was designed in 2000 and the first contracted rifle was produced in February of 2001. The .45 Professional was cut due to proprietary steel of General Motors that had to be used to handle the pressure of that round. The .50 Action Express and the .499 LWR were cut due to only two bullets in .501 were available at the time. The .458 case was developed to be compatible with the Barnes 300gr X bullet. .458 has an abundance of other bullets available. Then In 2009, Barnes came out with a special designed bullet for the .458 SOCOM , it was the 300 grain TTSX. It looks to me that Barnes had their fingers in this project from way back during the Vietnam Era. Go figure. By the way, my pet load is the 500 grain wide nose flat point at 1000fps. I've only shot game animals out to just shy of 100 yards. I have a 1x6 LVPO mounted. I have never recovered a bullet.
I just finished a .458 SOCOM build in early September. 12" Tromix upper. Shooting a 300gr Barnes TTSX at 1700FPS. Flawless performance. Total build weight with optic and magazine is 6lbs. Could not be happier.
@@gigabytes5955 you are not wrong, but the FPS loss from 16”to 12” is extremely marginal to me for my application. This build is purpose-designed for where I hunt hogs and deer: the dense marsh woods of Savannah, GA. My build is ideal for me and my application when you look at my optic set up and desired use distance of under 150yds. With a 100yd zero of a 2moa red dot, I get -2.50in at the muzzle, -0.56in at 25, +0.55 at 50, +0.77 at 75, 0 at 100, -1.81 at 125, and -4.79 at 150. 458 “velocity per inch” is nothing like what the 556 loses per inch when chopping barrel length. 556 averages about 50fps per inch, 458 averages 25-30 fps per inch. Full powder burn for my load is achieved at 10”, but I like the extra FPS and added insurance of complete burn with a 12”. I do intend to work up a load for a 250gr Barnes, which will increase my range tolerances a decent bit. Something else I considered is being “close enough” to the sound barrier for suppressing while using bullet weights more optimal for my given twist rate. I haven’t tested it myself, but I’ve seen many a forum post of “my barrel just doesn’t like the 5XX or 6XXgr projectiles”. I’ve also found much better bullet options (mostly from Barnes and Hornady) for the 250-400gr weight ranges.
@@gigabytes5955 Some people don't need to/terrain doesn't allow for shots past 100yd or so. 300gr .45 pill @ 1700fps will stop pretty much anything on the planet within a 150yd. That's just a hair slower than what I load .460 Smith out of an 18.5" to, but with a much better bullet. And I have 100% confidence in my hardcasts against any moose/bear that may want to run me down. Add a Barnes into the mix? Yeah, you're not undergunned against anything outside of possibly elephant and hippo.
@@mfallen2023 ftlbs of energy starts at 1924 at the muzzle and dips to about 1750 at 200yds (beyond my desired application distance).. then factor in the projectile being a Barnes ttsx.. recipe for success, if you ask me!
As a retired soldier way too familiar with the M16, I chose the .458 SOCOM as it ran reliability with my personal USGI mags. I got it for feral pigs when I was posted in the south. Great round for pigs in the bush. I also chose the .458 SOCOM after talking to a couple of super secret squirrel high-speed types my last time in Afghanistan who had tried it for CQC. I also have a .50 Beowulf for the same idea - pigs in the bush. I handload so factory ammo wasn't a concern. However, brass availability might become an issue so I stockpiled some while I could get it. The .450 Bushmaster was more problematic for me to find brass and to get to feed reliability. Never had issue with the .458 SOCOM feeding from any of my mags. Out of my 18" barrel recoil can be stiff and a huge muzzle break is obnoxious for the guy standing next to you.
The 458 Socom came about during the search for a big bore M16 upper conversion for USCG. The 499 Leitner Wise, 50 Beowulf and 458 Socom were all tested for boat interdiction. Tromix built my bolt action in 458 Socom some 25 years ago. 20inch fluted barrel on a Sako action in an old Grendel SRT folding stock. Shoots extremely well with early Lehigh lathe turned bullets and surpasses 45-70 ballistics. Problem with 450 Bushmaster is the .452 bullets.
Omg. The talks are back. I re watch all of these. Probably watched a couple of them 10-15 times while im at work. Can't get enough of Ryan's wisdom, Jim's humor, and mark's printouts
You missed one of the key points of the socom… it was designed from the beginning to also shoot subs. 5-600 grains! and it functions in an AR! Kind of the best part of the socom in my opinion, it’s like the big bore brother of 300 blackout. And as far as ammunition goes.. Black butterfly makes all kinds of top tier socom loadings. I just built a bolt action 458 socom with a 1:8 twist barrel to shoot subs exclusively. An d if anyone is interested in this cartridge and hand loads. maker bullets just came out with a 650 grain .458 cal expanding sub bullet, which is awesome cause they didn’t offer that bullet when I ordered my barrel. so that was a nice surprise when I was on their website a few weeks ago. I’m hoping to get some of them loaded up for deer season this year.
What powder do you use? I've been using cfe blk with makers other subs but not the 650. Ran out of case volume with the 500s! 10.5 inch 14 twist barrel
@@mlkman5541 it was pretty dang quiet after the first round pop, but I’m running a bowers vers 458 can on it which is 11” long. I knew it was gonna take a lot of volume to suppress well and that was the best one on the market at the time. He designed it specifically for 458 socom. He came out with a better can since I got that one but I don’t wanna fork over $1000 for another big bore can. I’ve only fired the rifle a few times to check headspace. I will try and video it next time I go to the range. Main thing I would say if you’re interested is get a dedicated big bore can. The do all hybrid cans don’t really have enough volume to suppress it effectively.
@@johnsanford3043 haven’t done any hand loads for it yet. Just shot a few rounds of black butterfly’s 600gr collossus loads. I’m hoping with it being a bolt action and the longer mag length that I can seat um out far enough to get enough powder in the case. But… I haven’t measured how far it is to the lands yet so I don’t know how far I’ll be able to seat um out of the case. Haven’t even ordered the bullets yet.
You mentioned 8.6 that is for the AR10 platform. If you are taking requests for different chamberings for AR15 size platform, please add 338 Spectre as well as the 30 Remington AR. Another suggestion not AR platform related, how about 6.5x284?
One of the biggest things to mention witb the 458 Socom is barrel/bolt selection. Since the SOCOM isn't a Saami spec round, 95% of makers don't use the correct chamber specs and/or bolts. Get a Tromix and it'll run like a top! Them there soda cans wont know what hit em!
I have 325s in mine and it's pretty sweet. The recoil isn't bad at all. The only way I can see someone saying it's got a lot of recoil is if they are used to 5.56 as their standard for a rifle when it's a lot closer to .30 carbine
People who compare the 458 SOCOM to the 450 Bushmaster usually compare a 200 or 250 grain loading in the Bushmaster to a 300 grain in the SOCOM. I've seen this time and time again. With equal bullet weight they are to close to matter. The only difference is in straight wall only states the Bushmaster gets the nod and in AR 15s the SOCOM is king. As for versatility the SOCOM can shoot from 150 grain polymer bullets to 600 or 700 grain suppressed bullets. That is a huge range!
I think the current beauty of the 458 socom is to push heavier subsonic pills out of an AR-15 or micro-action bolty. When shooting subsonic, bullet design and grain weights are the main factors in penetration. A from my experience: when shooting broadside at a hog the 188gr 300blk projectile will typically get stuck in the hide of the opposite shoulder whereas the 458 with 400+ grain projos will have full penetration 100% of the time.
I worked in the firearms industry from 1993 to 2011. Been shooting since 1990. When I first started out we couldn’t give ARs away. Then the Assault Weapons Ban came in and we were selling up to FIVE ARs to customers!
So first of all, I’m a huge fan of 458 SOCOM, the round was designed by Tromix and they worked directly with special operations command when they developed it, that is why it’s called the SOCOM. It uses the standard buffer and does not need a heavier buffer, the recoil is not uncomfortable at all, the reason why it is better than the 450 bushmaster is because the bullets are much better since they are a rifle bullet and not a pistol bullet like the 450 bushmaster is. With supersonic rounds the 458 SOCOM is good to 300 yards and subsonic 200 yards.
Definitely works. Definitely a lead balloon... Got a few myself, .338fed and .480 Ruger being the ones I refuse to let go of. That's why we handload, I guess... Though it is nice to be able to pop into a store and buy a few boxes of ammo.
To be fair I dont think it was really ever intended for commercial use... from what I've heard, .458 was specifically designed to put holes in engine blocks. People guarding check points needed a way to shut down a vehicle quickly when they decided it was a threat. Haven't tested it but I bet it works lol
It was probably thought of by people who could legitimately use it, but to stop a vehicle the fastest the guy behind the wheel is the best aiming point and those guys figured that out.
Have you done the 30 Remington AR yet? I would love to see a cartridge talk on that. I actually got to see one the other day from some ammo that was in an estate sale and all I could think of man would be awesome with the 7 mm bullet
I have 2, 458 SOCOM uppers and they shoot great. I don't use the 30 round magazines, I use 10 and 20s. The 450 bushmaster uses pistol bullets, the SOCOM uses rifle bullets. The factory 458 SOCOM is anemic, I can handload much more powerful than Bushmaster. In a stronger action like a Ruger Ranch you could easily reach 45-70 ballistics.
Can we get a 10min talk on .35 Remington!? I never run into anyone else carrying it in the deer woods but I believe it to be a phenomenal medium game cartridge. Has done me well. (Rifle in hand is a Remington model 14)
450 Bushmaster is solely for people limited to straight-walled cartridges. 458 uses standard AR mags, very common .458 bullets (450 BM uses .452), and runs 250 gr bullets at 2,100fps up to 600 grain slugs at subsonic velocities. Also compared to 50 Beowulf it runs through common 46 cal silencers while the Beowulf of course needs a more obscure 50 cal silencer.
Man, i stumbled upon you all about a year ago, man i am hooked. From the great interviews, advice, and Ryan and his lead ballons😂😂. I have come to love the cartridge talks. I was stoked to see one about the .458 socom since I just recently built one. It may be a lead ballon, but love shooting it and hand loading it. Keep up guys!!!
About 7 years ago I bought a BCA 458 SOCOM upper during the Black Friday sale. Pretty sure I got it shipped to my door for under $200. I didn’t need it, had no use in mind for it, but I just wanted it. I mounted it to a carbine lower and bought everything to reload (I’ve never shot anything but 325gr FTX Hornady) and after swabbing the bore, zeroed it a 100yds with three consecutive MOA groups. Since then I’ve had buddies buy them and rarely had problems, but when they did it was with flat nose or flat hollow point bullets catching the front of the mag when the round was being stripped by the bolt. I’ve never had a malfunction. I’ve carried it deer hunting a couple years but never shot a deer with it. It handles ground hogs and coyotes extremely well, tho. But so does 223….
35 Rem. And the model 8. First commercially available semi auto centerfire. John M Browning designed rifle and cartridge that’s advertisements alone scream golden era of big game hunting out west
Had the bear creek .458 upper and loved it. Accurate worked well and loaded my home rolled cast bullets. My issue was loosing my brass from an auto loader. So I built a bolt gun off a 110 action. Subsonic king of them all. Probably my favorite rifle.
Mark, I am "one of those guys" too (per Jim). Remington R15 was my first AR. My dad, then had to purchase the R15 VTR with the triangle barrel. Talk about a unique look to an AR, heck to any rifle. Thanks for the videos and knowledge sharing, always enjoy listening/watching the 3 of you.
Just got a Tromix as well. Looking to run strictly 500 grain expanders and 500 grain solids both subsonic. Im totally cool with 10 rounds of 500grainers semi auto with fast reload capability. Im going to trust that round as much as my 480 hard cast. I live in bear country. I used to think a 50 conversion for the AR15 was silly. Now i see its a viable way for one guy to bring alot of energy to a party. Love your show!!!
the 450SOCOM has a great place in a collection: AR15: 5.56 - easy but effectively unsuppressible - mid range / small target 300 BLK - low recoil - short range / small target 458socom - short range, perfect short range with subsonic power - short range / big targets compare to the 450 bushmaster is loud to be effective, 300blk grain levels in subsonic - shortrange/small targets AR10 6.5 credmore - doesn't subsonic ... just at all - long range / smallish targets 308 - aweful to suppress - perfect for short, mid, and some longish range - bad suppresability - mid to large targets 8.6 BLK - Suppressing perfection - mid range / big targets 12 gauge - yeah that can be done Above that you have to look to the future for anything in the AR platform that
I really like the .450 Bushmaster. I was going to go with the Socom, but ended up doing a lot of research and the .450 bushmaster outperforms the other significantly. I also load for both .45-70 and .45 Colt and the .45 Colt bullets work in it also. The .458 Lott is too long for the requirements in some of the states.
Never once have I ever had to modify a USGI 30rd aluminum mag to work with .458 Socom. Idk why he thinks you have to modify the feed lips and followers. Is it required to do so with PMags? I've been running a Tromix upper since 04 and it's been reliable.
I’m finishing up a .375 SOCOM build with a 16” X-caliber barrel. Have commented several times to hear a cartridge talk on it and other big bore AR cartridges. .458 Socom is pretty much the king of subs out of the AR-15 platform. Would be a hoot out of a straight pull pistolá, throwing 500+ grains through a can.
I was super surprised that Tony Rumore or Tromix weren't even mentioned. I shoot .50 Beowulf and even I know if you're going to talk .458 SOCOM, you're going to have to include Tromix and Tony Rumore.
The 458 socom was designed for special operations in the military, they needed a round that could stop vehicles by shooting through engine blocks over seas.
Okay. As someone who requested the 458 hell yea. Also if Jim brings up the Franklin Arsenal Reformation again I’m gonna die of laughter. It also had a binary trigger
Don't know about the .458, but I've got a .375 SOCOM and she's a beaut. At $3+ per round, factory loadings are not really justifiable, but who cares about that, right? All this to say....come on, Ryan, where the heck is your video(s) on the 300 SAUM?! At least one person is waiting for that one.
I have noticed, never a mention of Black Hills ammo. I run nothing but the 77 grain HPBT in my do everything 16” BCM with a Razor 1-10, (and CCW Defender.) Just wondering. I was just thinking about the .458 the other day. I think I see and 8.6 in my future.
Lots of guys stick a heavier buffer in these things but all you really need is an adjustable gas block and you restrict the gas a bit. My Beowulf has light weight buffer and bolt carrier, has a 20inch Xcaliber barrel and an adjustable gas block. 350 grain bullets feel like shooting a .410 slug.
I'm only here to name drop the Franklin Arsenal Reformation, it's not a smooth bore but had straight rifling (as in zero twist in the lands and grooves) it utilized the special projectile Jim mentions to "twist" with the rifling. Crazy idea that you guys should make a lead Ballon episode out of on it own.
Great Talk about the 458 SOCOM and my best friend has one. That said if i want a big bore, subsonic, semi auto, hog hunter I would definitely choose the 8.6 BLK today. Ammo availability , standard 308 Boltface standard AR10 size platform and standard mags. Its really just a barrel swap on a large frame AR and you have 300+ grain 338 size, Subsonic ammo whisper quiet with a can. (Shoots aupers as well with a adj gas block) Cheap to reload comparatively, and plenty of brass out thanks to Starline and Plenty of factory ammo from Gorilla and others. Just my 2 cents
I went with the SOCOM instead of the bushmaster because of the bullet availability ... there is just more out there in 458 as opposed to 454 It is a handloadwers cartridge for sure. But in an AR platform it does make a good hunting round for brush hunting . I have a red dot on mine and where I hunt with it, if you want to shoot further than 50 yards, bring a weed whacker .
At our small local shooting range (probably 50 different people use it in a 3 month time). I occasionally find some .458 socom brass. Always been confused to who/what has been using it because Ive found a few with split cases around the neck.
It's not as bad as either of those. It certainly packs a punch but with a good break or suppressor, tuned gas system and a decent stock, it's manageable
Do a cartridge talk on the 277 Wolverine. I loved the idea of a 6.8x39 for the AR platform that only required a barrel change. I guess it just wasn't special enough to take off. Is there a 6.5 wildcat for the AR that never made it mainstream? I gotta imagine someone tried 6.5 projectiles for the AR. Definitely do the AR calibers/wildcats videos.
No hate on the 458 socom, Its just not useful for me. I live in a state where there is no maximum OAL or caliber size for straight walled cartridges so a 45/70 in a heavy for caliber bullet (500gr and up) and the proper twist rifle would make for a great subsonic suppressed deer gun to meet the minimum muzzle energy requirement of 1,200 foot pounds. Acme makes a 576 gr. 458 socom bullet that can be used for this. I would love more short straight walled cartridges meant to be shot subsonic very heavy that were rimless (not rebated or belted) and straight walled in .458 caliber where these heavy projectiles are more common. rimless would make for easier feeding in a bolt action rifle than the rimmed 45/70.
The recoil isn't bad at all and the .458 socom doesn't require a bunch of proprietary parts or mag modifications. Mine has run like a top with 0 issues and using some old aluminum GI mags I had no use for since I dont own a 5.56 AR. The 2 I own are this and a 6 ARC...that one I'm not sure how I feel about it yet.
A quite enjoyed the sub tangent of the 458 Lott talk. I think that would be a good cartridge talk. I love my Ruger No 1 in Lott, and it is not nearly as bad as everyone made it out to be. I did the same thing the first time I went to shoot it and stood there for a few minutes trying to work up the courage to squeeze that trigger abs yes it kicked, but not like people make it out to to be. I will say one advantage is for people that cannot handle it you can buy boxes of ammo that have just one to three rounds missing for way underv alue at gun shows.
At least a few manufactures of ammo still, but most people with them hand load. And the major advantage the .458 has over the 450 bushmaster is bullet choice. The socom is obviously .458 diameter which has a huge selection because of guns like the 45/70. The bushmaster is a .452 diameter and has very little choice in heavier grain bullets making its versatility very limited.
458 socom to me is the best big bore AR cartridge in my opinion. It’s more versatile than the 450 bushmaster and has a bigger bullet selection. Not getting SAAMI specs killed it
Hey so you guys missed a few key points, highlighted by Ryan saying he’d pick the .450 Bushmaster for gas gun. The .458 SOCOM was designed from the ground up, at the behest of those who requested it, to run reliably out of standard USGI magazines. Being a bottle neck cartridge, it fits into and runs out of 30 round USGI magazines, as a ten round single stack mag, very well. The 450 bushmaster, being straight walled, and overall skinnier, will not fit into curved 30 round mags, nor is it large enough to actually work with the feed lips in a typical AR mag. Ask anyone you know with a .450 Bushmaster AR, they’ll tell you how much of a pain it is to find magazines for that gun. The resurgence in popularity of the .450 Bushmaster is solely due to it being a straight wall cartridge, in states that require that for deer hunting, and it’s being chambered almost exclusively in bolt guns.
Someone needs to see if they can get them to work with a Qmag in a Desert Tech Quattro 15. 🤔 You'd probably have to cut something but maybe not.
as well it was designed for close quarters infiltration
@@blackwind743 So from everything I’ve read (I only have personal experience with the .458 Socom) many manufacturers have tried to make 10rd mags that work with the .450 bushmaster, to no avail. I do think someone made a modified Tapco Intrafuse mag with so so success, but they’re no longer in production and I think they go for $50+ or something ridiculous. So with the .450 bushmaster you’re essentially limited to straight mags that max out at 7rds capacity and have proprietary followers and feed lips. To contrast, the .458 Socom loads right into a 30rds USGI mag and works great. Truly the .450 Bushmaster is a pretty decent round, but it’s at home in a bolt gun, the .458 Socom is really just the best choice for a gas gun. In my opinion that is.
Researching this round but now thinking about 8.6 blackout
@ 338 ARC seems to be a much better option
I only needed 3 "special" parts for my .458 SOCOM build. Tromix Barrel w/extension, big bore upper that has an opened up ejection port, and a Tromix .458 modified bolt. Lancer and GI mags run fine. PMAGs run okay with shorter cartridges.
It was my first AR build and runs great. Great hog gun; Barns 300g TTSX bullets are accurate and awesome. Recoil is less than a 12 gauge. Don't let these guys scare you off if you want a big bore AR! It would have been more popular, but the big companies blocked SAMMI approval to push the inferior 450 BM cartridges they were invested in.
458 SOCOM was made to use the .458 cal rifle bullets (45-70, 458 win mag, ect.) and can fire heavy bullets up to 600gr subsonic and deliver 1300+ ft/lbs muzzle energy with subsonic rounds. It was designed to deliver rifle energy in suppressed CQB applications and was supposedly utilized in limited capacity among some special forces/contractors. It came out after 450 bushmaster and was more popular than 450 BM originally.
450 BM uses .452 cal pistol bullets and cannot deliver the same kind of energy with subsonic ammo. 450 BM became more popular because of straight wall hunting and eventually had more support making it a better option for supersonic and hunting applications and will fire lighter 250gr bullets at a slightly higher velocity than 458 SOCOM.
The 458 SOCOM is arguably still a better option for an AR platform due to more reliable feeding from the bottleneck design and more powerful subsonic performance when fired suppressed, but does not have anywhere near the support of 450 BM.
Just wish they would make the .458 a SAAMI approved round. Otherwise it can never be a commercially accepted round.
@@garrett892, agreed! I wish it would've been saami approved.
@@garrett892It is a SAAMI round.
@@clifffortner2461 It is not. It was submitted but never approved from what I can find. Sounds like internal politics is involved.
It may be a lead balloon, but its MY Lead Balloon. The .458 SOCOM actually started its history with the .458 X 1.5 Barnes as a belted cartridge in a suppressed bolt gun during Vietnam. It fired a subsonic 500 grain bullet. It was highly effective in terms of ballistics, however the weight and size made it less than suitable for it's role. Hence, it drifted off into obscurity. Then comes along Mogadishu and Operation Gothic Serpent. The Task Force Rangers reported having ineffective ammunition against the opposing forces. So, through informal discussion with Marty ter Weene of Teppo Jutsu and Tony Rumore of Tromix, The .458 SOCOM was born. It was designed in 2000 and the first contracted rifle was produced in February of 2001. The .45 Professional was cut due to proprietary steel of General Motors that had to be used to handle the pressure of that round. The .50 Action Express and the .499 LWR were cut due to only two bullets in .501 were available at the time. The .458 case was developed to be compatible with the Barnes 300gr X bullet. .458 has an abundance of other bullets available.
Then In 2009, Barnes came out with a special designed bullet for the .458 SOCOM , it was the 300 grain TTSX. It looks to me that Barnes had their fingers in this project from way back during the Vietnam Era. Go figure. By the way, my pet load is the 500 grain wide nose flat point at 1000fps. I've only shot game animals out to just shy of 100 yards. I have a 1x6 LVPO mounted. I have never recovered a bullet.
I just finished a .458 SOCOM build in early September. 12" Tromix upper. Shooting a 300gr Barnes TTSX at 1700FPS. Flawless performance. Total build weight with optic and magazine is 6lbs. Could not be happier.
@@gigabytes5955 you are not wrong, but the FPS loss from 16”to 12” is extremely marginal to me for my application.
This build is purpose-designed for where I hunt hogs and deer: the dense marsh woods of Savannah, GA. My build is ideal for me and my application when you look at my optic set up and desired use distance of under 150yds.
With a 100yd zero of a 2moa red dot, I get -2.50in at the muzzle, -0.56in at 25, +0.55 at 50, +0.77 at 75, 0 at 100, -1.81 at 125, and -4.79 at 150.
458 “velocity per inch” is nothing like what the 556 loses per inch when chopping barrel length. 556 averages about 50fps per inch, 458 averages 25-30 fps per inch.
Full powder burn for my load is achieved at 10”, but I like the extra FPS and added insurance of complete burn with a 12”.
I do intend to work up a load for a 250gr Barnes, which will increase my range tolerances a decent bit.
Something else I considered is being “close enough” to the sound barrier for suppressing while using bullet weights more optimal for my given twist rate. I haven’t tested it myself, but I’ve seen many a forum post of “my barrel just doesn’t like the 5XX or 6XXgr projectiles”. I’ve also found much better bullet options (mostly from Barnes and Hornady) for the 250-400gr weight ranges.
@@gigabytes5955 Some people don't need to/terrain doesn't allow for shots past 100yd or so. 300gr .45 pill @ 1700fps will stop pretty much anything on the planet within a 150yd. That's just a hair slower than what I load .460 Smith out of an 18.5" to, but with a much better bullet. And I have 100% confidence in my hardcasts against any moose/bear that may want to run me down. Add a Barnes into the mix? Yeah, you're not undergunned against anything outside of possibly elephant and hippo.
@@mfallen2023 ftlbs of energy starts at 1924 at the muzzle and dips to about 1750 at 200yds (beyond my desired application distance).. then factor in the projectile being a Barnes ttsx.. recipe for success, if you ask me!
Have shot anything with it? Or just fun?
As a retired soldier way too familiar with the M16, I chose the .458 SOCOM as it ran reliability with my personal USGI mags. I got it for feral pigs when I was posted in the south. Great round for pigs in the bush. I also chose the .458 SOCOM after talking to a couple of super secret squirrel high-speed types my last time in Afghanistan who had tried it for CQC. I also have a .50 Beowulf for the same idea - pigs in the bush. I handload so factory ammo wasn't a concern. However, brass availability might become an issue so I stockpiled some while I could get it. The .450 Bushmaster was more problematic for me to find brass and to get to feed reliability. Never had issue with the .458 SOCOM feeding from any of my mags. Out of my 18" barrel recoil can be stiff and a huge muzzle break is obnoxious for the guy standing next to you.
The 458 Socom came about during the search for a big bore M16 upper conversion for USCG. The 499 Leitner Wise, 50 Beowulf and 458 Socom were all tested for boat interdiction. Tromix built my bolt action in 458 Socom some 25 years ago. 20inch fluted barrel on a Sako action in an old Grendel SRT folding stock. Shoots extremely well with early Lehigh lathe turned bullets and surpasses 45-70 ballistics. Problem with 450 Bushmaster is the .452 bullets.
I’m really not that interested in this cartridge but I’m going to watch the whole video in support of cartridge talks
Omg. The talks are back.
I re watch all of these. Probably watched a couple of them 10-15 times while im at work. Can't get enough of Ryan's wisdom, Jim's humor, and mark's printouts
They ain't gonna let you hit bro
@@petersquatch lol 🤣
Me too I like the one especially on the 300 blackout that's one of my favorites
Completely unrelated but if you guys are looking for suggestions can we have a 10ish minute talk on the classic 35 Remington?
You missed one of the key points of the socom… it was designed from the beginning to also shoot subs. 5-600 grains! and it functions in an AR! Kind of the best part of the socom in my opinion, it’s like the big bore brother of 300 blackout. And as far as ammunition goes.. Black butterfly makes all kinds of top tier socom loadings. I just built a bolt action 458 socom with a 1:8 twist barrel to shoot subs exclusively. An d if anyone is interested in this cartridge and hand loads. maker bullets just came out with a 650 grain .458 cal expanding sub bullet, which is awesome cause they didn’t offer that bullet when I ordered my barrel. so that was a nice surprise when I was on their website a few weeks ago. I’m hoping to get some of them loaded up for deer season this year.
How is it suppressed? I've heard they are a little louder but would rather hear it from someone with experience
What powder do you use? I've been using cfe blk with makers other subs but not the 650. Ran out of case volume with the 500s! 10.5 inch 14 twist barrel
@@mlkman5541 it was pretty dang quiet after the first round pop, but I’m running a bowers vers 458 can on it which is 11” long. I knew it was gonna take a lot of volume to suppress well and that was the best one on the market at the time. He designed it specifically for 458 socom. He came out with a better can since I got that one but I don’t wanna fork over $1000 for another big bore can. I’ve only fired the rifle a few times to check headspace. I will try and video it next time I go to the range. Main thing I would say if you’re interested is get a dedicated big bore can. The do all hybrid cans don’t really have enough volume to suppress it effectively.
@@johnsanford3043 haven’t done any hand loads for it yet. Just shot a few rounds of black butterfly’s 600gr collossus loads. I’m hoping with it being a bolt action and the longer mag length that I can seat um out far enough to get enough powder in the case. But… I haven’t measured how far it is to the lands yet so I don’t know how far I’ll be able to seat um out of the case. Haven’t even ordered the bullets yet.
You mentioned 8.6 that is for the AR10 platform. If you are taking requests for different chamberings for AR15 size platform, please add 338 Spectre as well as the 30 Remington AR. Another suggestion not AR platform related, how about 6.5x284?
It we’re doing cartridge talks let’s hit 357 sig
A round I recently converted to for edc😅
Lead balloon?
@@chadillac95Pretty much from my experince, evidently also super hard on pistols.
One of the biggest things to mention witb the 458 Socom is barrel/bolt selection. Since the SOCOM isn't a Saami spec round, 95% of makers don't use the correct chamber specs and/or bolts. Get a Tromix and it'll run like a top! Them there soda cans wont know what hit em!
I’d love to see a cartridge talk on 9.3x62!
Yes please!
My beloved moose hammer, yes please!
Agreed, great suggestion.
Agreed
Absolutely!
Actually in 2024 I have been consider the 458 SOCOM for suppressed hunting.
its devastating with 500g makers
Do it!
I have 325s in mine and it's pretty sweet. The recoil isn't bad at all. The only way I can see someone saying it's got a lot of recoil is if they are used to 5.56 as their standard for a rifle when it's a lot closer to .30 carbine
Look at 8.6
@@frankgonzalez3822 why? The 458 is superior to it
Franklin Armory Reformation is the one with the funny little bullets that look like footballs with fins.
Yep. It was like a nerf football.
With straight rifling
2 podcasts, 2 Waterboy references! Part of what I love about Vortex and these talks! Bring on the .35Rem!
Ohh I love 35Rem......I just ordered 100 pieces of new brass. I have my grandfather's Marlin 336sc
Where has Jim been? Replacing head gaskets in his Subaru likely. :D
30AR should be on the short list for Lead Balloons.
People who compare the 458 SOCOM to the 450 Bushmaster usually compare a 200 or 250 grain loading in the Bushmaster to a 300 grain in the SOCOM. I've seen this time and time again. With equal bullet weight they are to close to matter. The only difference is in straight wall only states the Bushmaster gets the nod and in AR 15s the SOCOM is king. As for versatility the SOCOM can shoot from 150 grain polymer bullets to 600 or 700 grain suppressed bullets. That is a huge range!
I think the current beauty of the 458 socom is to push heavier subsonic pills out of an AR-15 or micro-action bolty.
When shooting subsonic, bullet design and grain weights are the main factors in penetration.
A from my experience: when shooting broadside at a hog the 188gr 300blk projectile will typically get stuck in the hide of the opposite shoulder whereas the 458 with 400+ grain projos will have full penetration 100% of the time.
cartridge talks are baaaaaack
Totally off topic, but Ryan reminds me of a gun guy version of Jordan Peterson lol. I really enjoy listening to yall, keep up the good work guys!
I'm pretty sure 458socom uses rifle projectiles where the other competitors use pistol projectiles....
When I built my 458 that's why I went with it as opposed to the 450.
@@00blacksvtlme to
Me too @@00blacksvtl
It uses .458 dia bullets so anything for a 45-70 works. Normal loadings are 250 to 600 grains.
Yep. 458 Socom uses .458 meaning you can load all the way up to like 700 grains. Vs 450 bushmasters .452 maxing you out at like 350 grains.
I worked in the firearms industry from 1993 to 2011. Been shooting since 1990. When I first started out we couldn’t give ARs away. Then the Assault Weapons Ban came in and we were selling up to FIVE ARs to customers!
I love mine, 10.5 piston upper. Shooting a 400 grain maker subsonic supressed just puts a smile on your face
Several years ago, it was popular here in Indiana. Because we are not a straight wall state and it fits our set parameters for deer
Can you guys please do a review on the 6.8SPC?!?!?!!
ruclips.net/video/wUD7P9hRYww/видео.htmlsi=ZUmlWg2sSZ6cQ9tX
They already have.
I started my reloading journey with the cartridge!
Just finished building a 458 socom here. Got some Starline brass to put together some reloads on.
So first of all, I’m a huge fan of 458 SOCOM, the round was designed by Tromix and they worked directly with special operations command when they developed it, that is why it’s called the SOCOM. It uses the standard buffer and does not need a heavier buffer, the recoil is not uncomfortable at all, the reason why it is better than the 450 bushmaster is because the bullets are much better since they are a rifle bullet and not a pistol bullet like the 450 bushmaster is. With supersonic rounds the 458 SOCOM is good to 300 yards and subsonic 200 yards.
I have used it for hogs. It works. If it has become a lead balloon, it is not the only one I own.
Definitely works. Definitely a lead balloon... Got a few myself, .338fed and .480 Ruger being the ones I refuse to let go of. That's why we handload, I guess... Though it is nice to be able to pop into a store and buy a few boxes of ammo.
I love how Ryan says “that’s a pretty special cartridge” for pretty much every cartridge that gets brought up in this show
To be fair I dont think it was really ever intended for commercial use... from what I've heard, .458 was specifically designed to put holes in engine blocks. People guarding check points needed a way to shut down a vehicle quickly when they decided it was a threat. Haven't tested it but I bet it works lol
Also I have no idea to what level this was ever implemented, if at all.
It was probably thought of by people who could legitimately use it, but to stop a vehicle the fastest the guy behind the wheel is the best aiming point and those guys figured that out.
I think that was 50 beuwolf for the engine blocks thing.
Definitely gonna need an episode on the smooth bore AR and the football bat bullets.....
Have you done the 30 Remington AR yet? I would love to see a cartridge talk on that. I actually got to see one the other day from some ammo that was in an estate sale and all I could think of man would be awesome with the 7 mm bullet
+1 on the 30rem
On the next 10 min talk the 340 weatherby magnum.
While we’re on big bore. Do 50 GI ! Maybe follow it with 357 sig. Mass vs Velocity showdown!
I have 2, 458 SOCOM uppers and they shoot great. I don't use the 30 round magazines, I use 10 and 20s. The 450 bushmaster uses pistol bullets, the SOCOM uses rifle bullets. The factory 458 SOCOM is anemic, I can handload much more powerful than Bushmaster. In a stronger action like a Ruger Ranch you could easily reach 45-70 ballistics.
Not sure that I consider using a pistol primer with a floating firing pin "superior" . Replied to wrong comment
I've had my socom for a few years and X-Caliber barrels and love both
Love the more obscure rounds getting some review. If you guys ever do 45 Raptor or 338 Razorback which are some pretty fun wildcats.
Can we get a 10min talk on .35 Remington!?
I never run into anyone else carrying it in the deer woods but I believe it to be a phenomenal medium game cartridge. Has done me well. (Rifle in hand is a Remington model 14)
450 Bushmaster is solely for people limited to straight-walled cartridges.
458 uses standard AR mags, very common .458 bullets (450 BM uses .452), and runs 250 gr bullets at 2,100fps up to 600 grain slugs at subsonic velocities.
Also compared to 50 Beowulf it runs through common 46 cal silencers while the Beowulf of course needs a more obscure 50 cal silencer.
That was the straight rifling Franklin armory reformation
Finally! Great to see more cartridge talks. How about the 284 Winchester?
The AR Catridge Graveyard full podcast for Halloween!!!!!
Man, i stumbled upon you all about a year ago, man i am hooked. From the great interviews, advice, and Ryan and his lead ballons😂😂. I have come to love the cartridge talks. I was stoked to see one about the .458 socom since I just recently built one. It may be a lead ballon, but love shooting it and hand loading it. Keep up guys!!!
I’ve been hoping y’all would do a talk on this my first AR was a 458 socom I built it for black bear and hog
About 7 years ago I bought a BCA 458 SOCOM upper during the Black Friday sale. Pretty sure I got it shipped to my door for under $200. I didn’t need it, had no use in mind for it, but I just wanted it. I mounted it to a carbine lower and bought everything to reload (I’ve never shot anything but 325gr FTX Hornady) and after swabbing the bore, zeroed it a 100yds with three consecutive MOA groups. Since then I’ve had buddies buy them and rarely had problems, but when they did it was with flat nose or flat hollow point bullets catching the front of the mag when the round was being stripped by the bolt. I’ve never had a malfunction. I’ve carried it deer hunting a couple years but never shot a deer with it. It handles ground hogs and coyotes extremely well, tho. But so does 223….
35 Rem. And the model 8. First commercially available semi auto centerfire. John M Browning designed rifle and cartridge that’s advertisements alone scream golden era of big game hunting out west
Had the bear creek .458 upper and loved it. Accurate worked well and loaded my home rolled cast bullets. My issue was loosing my brass from an auto loader. So I built a bolt gun off a 110 action. Subsonic king of them all. Probably my favorite rifle.
Mark, I am "one of those guys" too (per Jim). Remington R15 was my first AR. My dad, then had to purchase the R15 VTR with the triangle barrel. Talk about a unique look to an AR, heck to any rifle. Thanks for the videos and knowledge sharing, always enjoy listening/watching the 3 of you.
Everything about the 458 is superior to the BM except popularity.
Not sure that using a pistol primer with a floating firing pin is "superior"
Just got a Tromix as well. Looking to run strictly 500 grain expanders and 500 grain solids both subsonic.
Im totally cool with 10 rounds of 500grainers semi auto with fast reload capability. Im going to trust that round as much as my 480 hard cast. I live in bear country.
I used to think a 50 conversion for the AR15 was silly. Now i see its a viable way for one guy to bring alot of energy to a party.
Love your show!!!
Hahaha I think I’m the guy who’s comment you saw 😂
I bought one, the hole it makes is wacko.
Have 550 gr sub sonics for it and a thermal on top. :)
the 450SOCOM has a great place in a collection:
AR15:
5.56 - easy but effectively unsuppressible - mid range / small target
300 BLK - low recoil - short range / small target
458socom - short range, perfect short range with subsonic power - short range / big targets
compare to the 450 bushmaster is loud to be effective, 300blk grain levels in subsonic - shortrange/small targets
AR10
6.5 credmore - doesn't subsonic ... just at all - long range / smallish targets
308 - aweful to suppress - perfect for short, mid, and some longish range - bad suppresability - mid to large targets
8.6 BLK - Suppressing perfection - mid range / big targets
12 gauge - yeah that can be done
Above that you have to look to the future for anything in the AR platform that
So awesome to have another cartridge talk, their the best!
Could you guys talk about the .275 Rigby or the 30-40 Krag?
Awesome content!
I really like the .450 Bushmaster. I was going to go with the Socom, but ended up doing a lot of research and the .450 bushmaster outperforms the other significantly. I also load for both .45-70 and .45 Colt and the .45 Colt bullets work in it also. The .458 Lott is too long for the requirements in some of the states.
Thanks for talking me out of 458 socom..... 6 months after I finished building a 458 socom upper!!! 😖😩
Oh well... I also have a 6x45mm. 😮
Faxon still makes barrels for the 458 SOCOM.
Never once have I ever had to modify a USGI 30rd aluminum mag to work with .458 Socom. Idk why he thinks you have to modify the feed lips and followers. Is it required to do so with PMags? I've been running a Tromix upper since 04 and it's been reliable.
I’m finishing up a .375 SOCOM build with a 16” X-caliber barrel. Have commented several times to hear a cartridge talk on it and other big bore AR cartridges.
.458 Socom is pretty much the king of subs out of the AR-15 platform. Would be a hoot out of a straight pull pistolá, throwing 500+ grains through a can.
I loved the 450 Bushmaster that I had. The AR lead balloons talk will be a good one!
black butterly ammo! Tromix is the only way to get a 458socom that runs flawless!
I'd argue CMMG does a wonderful job, though it is more like an AR12.5
I was super surprised that Tony Rumore or Tromix weren't even mentioned. I shoot .50 Beowulf and even I know if you're going to talk .458 SOCOM, you're going to have to include Tromix and Tony Rumore.
The 458 socom was designed for special operations in the military, they needed a round that could stop vehicles by shooting through engine blocks over seas.
Okay. As someone who requested the 458 hell yea. Also if Jim brings up the Franklin Arsenal Reformation again I’m gonna die of laughter. It also had a binary trigger
Let’s hear about 25 WSSM
Or any wssm for that matter. Agreed!
Good to see Jim again! I'm up for anything tabled.
Mark, the only thing keeping a 458 Lott from being used in a straight wall zone or state is when the state has a max length restriction.
"I don't know what that is" So serious. 😂
Can we get a 405 Winchester cartridge talk
Please, let's take a walk through the AR cartridge graveyard!
Don't know about the .458, but I've got a .375 SOCOM and she's a beaut. At $3+ per round, factory loadings are not really justifiable, but who cares about that, right? All this to say....come on, Ryan, where the heck is your video(s) on the 300 SAUM?! At least one person is waiting for that one.
I have noticed, never a mention of Black Hills ammo. I run nothing but the 77 grain HPBT in my do everything 16” BCM with a Razor 1-10, (and CCW Defender.) Just wondering. I was just thinking about the .458 the other day. I think I see and 8.6 in my future.
Can yall do a podcast on the weatherby 6.5-300
Lots of guys stick a heavier buffer in these things but all you really need is an adjustable gas block and you restrict the gas a bit. My Beowulf has light weight buffer and bolt carrier, has a 20inch Xcaliber barrel and an adjustable gas block. 350 grain bullets feel like shooting a .410 slug.
I'm only here to name drop the Franklin Arsenal Reformation, it's not a smooth bore but had straight rifling (as in zero twist in the lands and grooves) it utilized the special projectile Jim mentions to "twist" with the rifling.
Crazy idea that you guys should make a lead Ballon episode out of on it own.
I quite literally looked through all of your videos to see if it had been made, but 358 Norma would be a cool round to talk about.
Great Talk about the 458 SOCOM and my best friend has one. That said if i want a big bore, subsonic, semi auto, hog hunter I would definitely choose the 8.6 BLK today. Ammo availability , standard 308 Boltface standard AR10 size platform and standard mags. Its really just a barrel swap on a large frame AR and you have 300+ grain 338 size, Subsonic ammo whisper quiet with a can. (Shoots aupers as well with a adj gas block) Cheap to reload comparatively, and plenty of brass out thanks to Starline and Plenty of factory ammo from Gorilla and others. Just my 2 cents
Need a lead balloon series!!!!!
I remember the weird smoothbore gun lol. I give them credit for thinking out of the box but the final result was lacking greatly lol.
I would like to see a cartridge talk about the .277 Fury or 6.8×51mm. Lots to discuss between the commercial and military cases and pressures. Thanks!
I went with the SOCOM instead of the bushmaster because of the bullet availability ... there is just more out there in 458 as opposed to 454 It is a handloadwers cartridge for sure. But in an AR platform it does make a good hunting round for brush hunting . I have a red dot on mine and where I hunt with it, if you want to shoot further than 50 yards, bring a weed whacker .
At our small local shooting range (probably 50 different people use it in a 3 month time). I occasionally find some .458 socom brass. Always been confused to who/what has been using it because Ive found a few with split cases around the neck.
I still think dangerous game cartridge talk would be cool. It would give you an excuse to get out that 458 Lott
What’s the most 458 can hold in any mag
450 BM AR ARE GREAT DEER GUNS AND VERY ACCURATE
Well if it's that bad azz what is the recoil like 😮 is it like the 45-70 or 300 win mag
It's not as bad as either of those. It certainly packs a punch but with a good break or suppressor, tuned gas system and a decent stock, it's manageable
Like a 20ga. Not bad at all
Shoot if it's like a 20 gauge that is cool I need to build one. But first I must do some research
@@quentinjackson3778you will want to reload, ammo is Xpensive!
@@BryanShull-lt8gz great I just started reloading my own 9mm and 45 acp rounds
First ar I ever built
Do a cartridge talk on the 277 Wolverine. I loved the idea of a 6.8x39 for the AR platform that only required a barrel change. I guess it just wasn't special enough to take off. Is there a 6.5 wildcat for the AR that never made it mainstream? I gotta imagine someone tried 6.5 projectiles for the AR. Definitely do the AR calibers/wildcats videos.
No hate on the 458 socom, Its just not useful for me. I live in a state where there is no maximum OAL or caliber size for straight walled cartridges so a 45/70 in a heavy for caliber bullet (500gr and up) and the proper twist rifle would make for a great subsonic suppressed deer gun to meet the minimum muzzle energy requirement of 1,200 foot pounds. Acme makes a 576 gr. 458 socom bullet that can be used for this. I would love more short straight walled cartridges meant to be shot subsonic very heavy that were rimless (not rebated or belted) and straight walled in .458 caliber where these heavy projectiles are more common. rimless would make for easier feeding in a bolt action rifle than the rimmed 45/70.
You're right. It does look vaguely like a Lombardi trophy.
The recoil isn't bad at all and the .458 socom doesn't require a bunch of proprietary parts or mag modifications. Mine has run like a top with 0 issues and using some old aluminum GI mags I had no use for since I dont own a 5.56 AR. The 2 I own are this and a 6 ARC...that one I'm not sure how I feel about it yet.
I would love to hear Ryan talk about the pros and cons of a rebated rim
Had Ryan ever shot a .378 Weatherby?
Started out with Bear Creek upper to check out 458, definitely getting a Tromix now. It is a predictable round and accurate within practical ranges.
Had a 458 socom pre covid. Sold it during, and now I want one again. But may build a bolt gun. Really meant for the 50gr subs.
A quite enjoyed the sub tangent of the 458 Lott talk. I think that would be a good cartridge talk. I love my Ruger No 1 in Lott, and it is not nearly as bad as everyone made it out to be. I did the same thing the first time I went to shoot it and stood there for a few minutes trying to work up the courage to squeeze that trigger abs yes it kicked, but not like people make it out to to be. I will say one advantage is for people that cannot handle it you can buy boxes of ammo that have just one to three rounds missing for way underv alue at gun shows.
At least a few manufactures of ammo still, but most people with them hand load. And the major advantage the .458 has over the 450 bushmaster is bullet choice. The socom is obviously .458 diameter which has a huge selection because of guns like the 45/70. The bushmaster is a .452 diameter and has very little choice in heavier grain bullets making its versatility very limited.
458 socom to me is the best big bore AR cartridge in my opinion. It’s more versatile than the 450 bushmaster and has a bigger bullet selection. Not getting SAAMI specs killed it