EVs Explained Off Road! Dual Motor vs Tri Motor vs Quad Motor - Locking Diffs vs Virtual Lockers
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
- We found a new testing ground and put the 4 electric trucks up against a small hill to determine the variation across their 4 different methods for powertrain control logic. Dual motor Silverado EV, dual motor F-150 Lightning with rear locking differential, tri motor Tesla Cybertruck "Cyberbeast", and Rivian R1T with quad motor system. Plus we do a bit of off-roading to see how the Cybertruck fares!
CHAPTERS
00:00 Hello & Welcome
03:38 Chevy Silverado EV Dual-Motor w/ open differentials
08:23 Ford F-150 Lightning Dual-Motor w/ locking differential
11:32 Tesla Cybertruck Tri-Motor
17:48 Rivian R1T Quad-Motor
26:55 Cyberbeast Off-road Performance
30:40 Final Thoughts
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You guys are really setting the gold standard for EV reviews. Keep it up.
Kyle does a better job on RUclips with explaining things than a college professor
But he NEVER SHUTS UP. He uses 24 words to explain something he could better explain using 10 words.
@@RoHo702 Yeah, he speaks too much..... This video could easily be under 10 min...
Bravo, I love the technical explanations of the vehicles. This will differentiate you from the typical youtubers that only discuss styling.
Best EV Auto Review channel in the World. Puts companies like Consumer Reports, Edmunds, etc to shame.
I want to like EVs but they are just not… something. I know they can be massively powerful, fast as hell, and if anyone had a sense of flair, cool. They just take vehicle design to the land of “meh”, cost a bit too much, and don’t do the one thing a good vehicle should. Be likable. Elon has enough money to send us to to another planet. Make us a car that isn’t a door-stop or looks like a scoop of melted ice cream. The Hummer got close, but why not re-make the H1 in EV. And don’t tell me “it needs to be efficient” and “Raaaange.” Screw that, you made a Hummer EV. Take “EV” serious or toss out the nerds designing them and hire some kids. Make cars people are excited to drive even years later. Or are we just admitting that only dorks who like to crunch numbers and drive efficiently can like an EV? I drive a newer car, that looks like a pretty old car, and I Love It’s Looks! It has flaws, and things I’d change, but (spoiler alert) it has specific spots under the hood designed and engineered to hold your beer. A giant iPad bolted to the dash, a stupid noise when I back up, and a broken charge station will forever keep me away. We did EVs wrong. Let’s agree to change them for the better.
@@labdrone4647 LOL did you not watch this video? I don't care for the cybertruck but he was drifting it and doing donuts in the dirt. That looks fun to me. The hummer ev was not built to be efficient it has massive power and is fun to drive. Kyle was demoing the differences between a real diff locker and a virtual one. He has shown that a traditional diff is predictable however there is lots of potential in the "nerdy" virtual diff tri and quad motors. To his admission he said his Rivian has improved greatly since the beginning as the team dials in the virtual lockers.
As for broken charge stations and a stupid noise when backing up. Those are all things that are easily fixable and have been addressed. The back up sound is virtual so technically that can sound like anything, and the Chargers are constantly being made/upgraded plus tesla is opening up.
Kyle said "Today's going to be a quick one..." - how many of us immediately wiggled the mouse or tapped the screen to see how long the video is, and were surprised it's *only* half an hour?
Yeah, I am strongly considering stopping watching this channel due to the constant fluff and repeat of words. Seriously, wayyyyyy toooooooo long on so m any videos.
@@brandonnelson4164 I find they're great to fall asleep to when you have insomnia. Yet I wake up with all the knowledge of the video! 😀
But for serious, I skip the live streams, and I tend to fast forward through many of the multi-hour videos; or I just leave it on in the background as audio-only like I'm listening to a podcast while working. (It's strange, I don't like listening to audio-only podcasts, but there are a few RUclips channels with longer-form "visuals not strictly necessary" uploads that I listen to the way other people listen to podcasts...)
@@brandonnelson4164you can always watch at 2x
Gods this.
I love these long videos. As long as there is good content in it. Kyle’s videos have great content
I don’t see why Rivian can’t simply have a mode wherein all 4 motors turn at exactly the same rate, simulating a fully locked vehicle. The right pedal would then simply be a speed control, not an “accelerator” which is exactly what one wants when rock crawling. There’s no need to measure the mu of the surface, just measure the motor RPM. Surely that can be done in just a few milliseconds; the computer is obviously fast enough, all it needs is a sufficiently precise RPM sensor. And I suspect that is already there in the basic motor controller, anyway.
I’ve been saying this forever. Why is it so hard to have a line of code say “wheel speed left = wheel speed right”. That would basically simulate a locker . Too bad with a quad motor there isn’t more control over each wheel off-road . Can do things like pivot about any corner or tank turn . If there was manual control of each of the 4 wheels that would be insane .
@@ahmadalanjary2020it's doesn't work so. Electric motor doesn't have enough power for it.
Great video! Love to see the comparisons. I really like the Silverado EV with it's massive battery but this video shows I should keep the Lightning, at least for now. My Lighting sees some rough trails at times. Just recently I had to tow a flat bed trailer up a steep, rocky uneven dirt road. Google Earth shows it's a 14 percent Grade at times and it owned it like a boss. The access road to the Solar powered cell tower we worked at has many signs stating 4x4 low range required. My truck is on 34's and a 3 inch lift though. The locker helps immensely on the trails. Steady, smooth throttle is key and also definitely do not stop on the steeper parts. Let the motors and locker do their thing. 6 Months in and this truck has definitely earned it's keep.
Superb explanations, even for me, 23yo European that never did any offroading, that was so interesting to watch
No hate for Tesla or EVs in general like I'm used to see everywhere else on the internet. Really refreshing.
nah screw tesla lol
Such a great video! I'm sure there are other videos that explain locking diffs as well, but this up-leveled my understanding a lot and since it's EV-specifc, is way more relevant to my interests than a more general video.
I've been waiting for you to do this video, Kyle! Good stuff. One thing I think bears more mention is the benefit to preserving momentum and reduced trail destruction that a locker(s) offer due to reduced wheelspin. Brake differential control (which CONSUMES torque to transfer torque) or multi-motor on an axle are reactive and need to see that slip on one side to ramp up torque to the opposite side. You make a great point at 18:50 that most people don't yet understand about EVs and I think it bears repeating. Quad motor means 1/4 of the power available to any given wheel.
I definitely just learned how diff locks work! Thanks Kyle!
Very big learning session - very good work and teaching guys! 💪
And it is sooo cool to see this beasts in offroad without any noise.... so quiet - just "magic" - its the future for sure 🚀
Yes, the quiet alone creates the opportunity to talk through the demonstration without yelling.
Great video. I design motor controllers for a living, and I don't understand why this is so complicated. In offroad mode with the 3- or 4-motor systems, all that needs to be done is to ensure that all motors spin at the same RPM, and allow each of them to use full torque to achieve this. Motor controllers can react very quickly to increased torque demand, so that there should be no noticeable delay to the driver. In theory it should be able to look and behave like you have physical lockers. What am I missing?
Kyle you’re a work horse! I love all the content, I’m convinced you don’t take days off.
He just got paid $5k+ for 2 hours of playing with trucks. Would you take a day off if you made that kind of money doing that kind of stuff?
Man excellent explanation about torque distribution. This coming from a 28 year experience technician who also loves offroading.
I could watch 12 hours of this stuff. You guys rock!
More please!!
Quality content from start to finish, thanks guys.
Ok ok ok, you sold me on the Silverado EV.
Thanks for the awesome EV truck reviews, you guys are killing it lately! Very informative.
an interesting addition here wouldve been the 4xe wrangler, even though its a phev it would be a good representation of mechanical 4wd with lockers since its all pre-transmission and how it handles the different torque curve of an electric motor
4Xe would roll up this as nothing, no wheel spin.
@@santiagohills3997 interesting, still would’ve been a good benchmark, especially with how much front and rear lockers were talked about
Pretty sure you wouldn't even lift wheels here in a Rubicon
This was a pretty nice video,I enjoyed it.
here's a quick one! 30 minutes lol
Pretty quick for me
@@KyleConner Cover the topic thoroughly and don't worry about the length!
@@KyleConnerAlyssa's one lucky lady. ;)
@@KyleConner no hate. I watch them all, I just find it funny because other YT creators “long videos” are 10 minutes
phenomenal video. thanks!
Very nice informative video! Thank you for making this.
Yes, and great camera work and production!
Kudos to the team!
WOW! I learned a lot from this video, thank you. 💯💪👍
Thank you for explaining the caveats and differences between the drive trains of these different electric trucks.
Great video Kyle. I would have never thought to compare this.
Very cool demo and neat to see!
Off-road not my thing so this was great education. Thanks.
Awesome vid/test please keep these coming
I recently traded my old Silverado for an F150 Lightning. Like most gas Silverados, it had a mechanically auto-locking Eaton G80 rear differential. Seems like that would be something useful on a work-truck.
Great video.
Thanx!
It sounds like a quad motor setup that had a way to hard couple the wheel together would be the ultimate setup. Other than this, a dual motor with lockers where you can run traction control most of the time, but hard lock things up when things get gnarly would be amazing. Of course you still need some virtual locking going on between the front and rear motor since on many serious off-road tracks, maintaining a slow but consistent pace is essential. Having your vehicle bog down because the front or back lost traction for a moment on a tough climb is not a good thing.
From what I've seen, dual motor with lockers seems to be the best combination for EVs. Rivian needs to make that an option.
Where have you seen that?
@@sexpistill Originally I saw the limitations of a 4 and 3 motor design by watching TFL.
@@sexpistill This video in particular was a bit of an eye opener. ruclips.net/video/BWpmUypVqmY/видео.html
Thank you professor Kyle.
I think it would be helpful for you to explain why we have differentials in the first place. I suspect many viewers are asking “why not lock all axels all the time?”
This was awesome.
Thanks!
I watch your videos at 2x speed, and the chipmunk laugh when you're sliding the Cybertruck around just fills me with joy.
I like the tried and true physical locker
This channel should be a benchmark for EV reviews!
Using a locker when floating a tire or two on rocks can greatly reduce tire wear from fast spinning tires when they start to get traction. It also reduces jerk that can cause center of gravity shifting.
Absolutely loved the detail provided here! It reminded me how I use my pickups for anything pickup related 0.95%. I like trucks because I sit high, are powerful, and go pretty fast. Above all, I like the feeling I can handle those obscure usages if the time comes. At least that's what I think most feel.
Hot take: I'm tired of owing The standard bubble truck, manufactured by different companies. Huge bonus, All the things haggerty mentioned in his video. Electric
Nice to see logic instead of sales pitch.
As someone that has never gone off-roading I had no idea what a differential was. But after this video I think I might have less of a deer in the headlights look next time someone is talking about their truck lol. Thanks!
Great video and explanation. Seen my first Silverado EV in person in Wisconsin. Awesome truck. Looking forward to seeing hummer EV test. All have there plus and minus. The range of hummer and Chevy is amazing and wish cybertruck had it without the extended battery. However Tesla charging is more reliable. Tough decisions ahead but love these videos as explains a lot and answers a lot of my questions and concerns.
My offroading experience is mostly from the army times with offroad trucks that had all the locks, so that's what I'm used to. Armored 6x6 vehicles were pretty fun!
Rivian brings new context to the phrase "when in doubt, throttle out" 😂
thank you!
you just missed to show the "CT Rock Mode". what does it do different?
IMO, a dual motor EV with front and rear electronically controlled lockers is the ideal set up overall for off roading. Let’s you have the lower weight and higher efficiency of only two motors, while still being able to send power to the wheels that need it most. Quad motor is overkill and I would say tri-motor is too. You can get much higher efficiency, lower cost and lower likelihood of a failure with fewer motors. It’s also nice if you have dual permanent magnet motors that the front motor can mechanically disconnect from the drivetrain for highway cruising so it is RWD only for higher efficiency. For whatever reason Rivian made its vehicles go into FWD only mode when you put it in efficiency mode. An odd decision for a truck or SUV, especially if towing and a lot of weight is on the rear end making the front wheels lighter and easier to lose traction.
T Chevy’s performance was abysmal and it could be much better. Plenty of cars with open rear and front differentials are able to go off road without issue (like Land Rover vehicles that don’t have the locking rear differential option). My Kia EV6 GT has a rear electronically controlled differential and it makes all the difference in the world when you mash the accelerator (NOT THROTTLE LIKE KYLE SAYS lol) in a curve and it just puts the power down to the outer rear wheel instead of lighting up in the inside tire or cutting power like a Model 3/Y Performance will do with their open differentials. It can overdrive one wheel for torque vectoring which can absolutely be felt. So glad they fit one to the GT. BMW needs to do that on its i4 M50, i5 M60, and i7 xDrive60/M70. We have an i7 and it will torch the front tires from a standstill while on sharp curves it can overwhelm even the big 285mm rear tires if you floor it. Their equivalent ICE cars come with an active M differential so not sure what they left it off the EVs that cost even more!
ev cars not suitable for off-road driving without gearboxes. Problem with electric motor. And even with one they are bad suitable for off road - weight, low energy...
You guys have been on a roll. Keep up the good work! Also I have a recent picture of a Canoo EV if you’re interested. I took it today about 1 hour ago. It’s a consumer model blue and black. I haven’t seen anyone talking about them at all lately.
Thank You for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth.... Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste 🙏🏻 😊 🌈 ✌ ☮ ❤
Loving all of the truck content! Still hoping to see a few more videos on the Lyriq (Cadillac’s second best selling vehicle behind the Escalade). Would be great to see a range test and a 10% challenge. Thank you!
Hummer EV 2X (dual motor) has locking diffs front and rear
it doesn't work. Look up review in this channel. If you need off road trips - buy gas/diesel/lpg engine.
@Kyle / @Out of Spec Reviews ... What software version did you have on that Rivian during this comparison? I like those inclinometers!
I like the concept of your videos. We already know the basics. Thank you for going in depth.
"Today we're going to do a QUICK one" ... 32 minutes later video is still not over.
My ‘23 Lariat ER has the most amazing traction I’ve seen. The stock highway tires it came with have pulled the truck and 14k dump trailer everywhere I’ve tried to go. I have locked the diff a few times. A front locker would be nice but then knowing I had that I’d put myself in deeper trouble. Important logic for any off-road driving. Don’t assume your very best effort (frt & rr lockers) is what you’re getting into. Always keep your best effort for getting out of overzealous efforts. Keep a trick up your sleeve - so to speak.
Awesomeness.
Really looking to see a serious hybrid, plug-in, hybrid or range extended EV version of the pick up truck.
I don't do off-roading, at least not voluntarily. Therefore, I'd prefer anything that doesn't need extra HW (more cost, more weight, more things that can break) for occasional „Huh, am I really stuck in the snow, how do I get out?“ accident. Certainly, a car that is specifically designed to go offroading might have different trade-offs.
Love my quad
Clear as water, you know how to teach.
on the cybertruck it seems like a novice would have issues trying to set up all the different settings correctly... also as a novice is there a big learning curve of charging it for everyday driving? I never had an EV before,,,, waiting for delivery on my cyber... thanks
There's lots of talk among Rivian Forums that the upcoming production line halt and restart may mean a refreshed R1 with quad _Enduro_ motors for improved efficiency *and* more power.
I have the R1 quad motor. Whats a quad Enduro?
@@chazcarpenter1559 The quad uses motors manufactured by Bosch. The dual motor uses Rivian-designed-in-house motors that they call “Enduro”. The quad makes more power overall, but the dual’s motors have more power each, so using four of those would be more powerful.
That’s what the rumors are, that the refreshed quad will be quad Rivian made Enduro motors instead of the Bosch motors.
Looks awesome. You should try a real off road adventure to some mountain vista. Can these trucks make it there and back.
Are motors generally limited by their amp capacity fed to them or is it the battery output that's the limiting factor? I can envision the four motor setup having excess torque capacity that can't be fully realized by the battery pack. However, if the vehicle is stuck and now needs one motor to be "maxed out", the battery pack can easily handle it and possibly overdrive that motor with amperage, if allowed. Maybe they need to call this "overboost or overclock", similar to the Tesla track mode setting on the air conditioning compressor.
The Rivian software is surprisingly mature and stabilizes the vehicle well. As for latency in reaction, once the Cybertruck's OTA updates have caught up we might see millisecond response times to dynamic torque distribution...
You mention the Silverado being "unique" for having a physical parking pawl, but the F150 Lightning also has a parking pawl.
I really want to head out there and see how my dual motor R1T with ATs handles that sort of terrain. Mostly to see how Rivian's software handles that on the dual motor.
would love to see the hummer ev in this group .
Same, we invited our friend Patrick with one but he couldn’t make it
It's the same truck as the Silverado (if you're a car head you know this).
Would be interesting to see how the dual motor Hummer does, as I believe it can be optioned with lockers front and rear.
@@chefcjnobles1680I would imagine that the software calibration is probably significantly different between the Hummer and the Silverado work truck trim.
@chefcjnobles1680 The suspension setup between the two trucks are completely different. Far from the same as you can get actually.
Nice job, but hey, how about sliding the other trucks around? Most of us can't get a Cybertruck for a few years but I am curious about the Lightning ability and limit off-road.
How do you see the Tesla cybertruck dual motor with future dual lockers doing off-road compared to the quad motor rivian?
I think there needs to be multiple gear reduction ratio outputs. Essentially, electrically controlled automatic transmissions for lower ranges and higher torques to prevent stalling of the motors and overheating of the electronics.
Teaching Kyle is much cooler than Competitive Kyle. Excellent tutorial video on the respective trucks and locking differentials. Very excited to get CyberTruck and these types of videos are great education for me in using the software while understanding what it is doing. Awesome Video!
Can you bring back the longer videos plz
i suspect dual motors would be the most efficient overall, so if adding lockers does not take away efficiency and provide real 4 wheel traction. We need more testing to see if try motor is as efficient as dual motor in regular driving on the same truck on same drive.
I wish there was a way for the tri- and quad-motor setups to tell the software to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to keep both wheels doing at the same RPM.
Great video... I think I would prefer a GOOD limited slip diff.. like Torsen or equivalent something strong enough to transfer 100% of the power to any axle or wheel. they have instant power transfer to the wheel with more grip. Even better if you get a good center diff and on the axles.. ... next would be lockers.
Kyle I love your bed rack!! Tell me please who makes it ? And will it fit on my Lighting ! Thanx man
Does the Cyber Truck have Slip Start?
I thought one of the perks of EVs was you
could junk the dif for 4 in wheel motors.
!
Great explanations. I've heard it explained before, but this is the first time I think I actually understood it to the point of being able to remember it from now on.
I do wonder why these companies are using quad motors instead of lockers. Maybe its better in other ways that it doesn't make sense to have dual motors with lockers when it can only send 1/2 the total power to any one wheel. It will be interesting to see if the G-Wagon has quad motors, how it compares to the ICE version with lockers.
Good thing your Rivian got the flat instead of the Cybertruck!
Would have been great if you told us when you were braking or just showed the brake lights. Braking probably affects the software.
Did the CT just roll back on its own when you applied brake and accelerator?
29:00 Credit where it’s due, you can do tricks to overdrive an individual rear wheel with an ICE AWD system, like in the Focus RS, which would overdrive the rear axle and use clutches to control power to each side.
If the traction system could detect suspension loading, it ought to make the software control much easier for cases where there are wheels off the ground.
The wheels are being driven by what are essentially servos. Why not just put them in position control mode and cam into a virtual master that has speed governed by the throttle peddle. Position control loops can update at as fast as 100 microseconds. For all intents and purposes performance should be identical to a physical locker except for as Kyle says the torque being limited to the wheel that has contact. Maybe automotive inverters don't have the full capability set of an industrial servo drive?? Do they have encoders or resolvers on the wheels?
Hey Kyle & Team, writing from Colorado. Lockers, torque distribution and stability controls are extremely important topics here as you of course understand, thanks for covering this topic on ~$100k trucks, you can't take dealership test-drive vehicle into these conditions.
Honestly I lost hope in Virtual Lockers looking at Rivian and now Cybertruck, while easy in theory - just rotate the damn motors with same RPM no matter the load - no one still implemented properly. Not one manufacturer implemented virtual central locker for Dual Motor (front + rear) planforms: Tesla, Rivian, Ford, GM, others.
For this reason I will only buy Dual-motor EV truck with durable electro-mechanical lockers. Cybertruck Dual-Motor is much more appealing to me than Tri-Motor for this simple reason. If you **like** driving and you live in state like Colorado where we get 4 seasons few times a week, you need absolute predictability from the drivetrain on Snow, Ice, Dirt, Sand, creek crossing.
Wdyt?
Say it with me "Pseudo lockers are not lockers!"
Actually software "locking" is quite simple. You adjust the amount of power being applied to each wheel to best match the measured angles from the motor encoders so that they spin at the same speed. Initially you will get the free wheel spinning quicker, but very quickly (within a few degrees) you can realize this and adjust how much power is applied.
I am quite unimpressed by the cybertruck's and the Rivians current software to manage this as they are very slow to respond.
You guys should have swapped out the tires on the other trucks with some common AT tires. Overall good video!
I wonder what beta version of the software was on the Cybertruck that went up Hell's Gate (video on the Tesla YT Channel).
How many motors & what type of differentials does the GMC HUMMER have?
Two rear motors that can be set to spin together and a front locker.
The advanced version of virtual "locking diff will be 4 way selectable traction that will be superior to just locking non locking manual differentials.
The Cybertruck looks so cool driving in the dirt. I would probably still never get one through for multiple reasons. Biggest being I am against full size trucks.
I think a motor for each wheel is best. Just add more power. Or maybe supplement the quad motor with hub motors for off roading?
With all the hype about traction control systems in 4WDs, how Toyota has the amazing crawl control for example, and the advances we are seeing in EVs, it would be easy to think that traction control is better than lockers. So wrong. A fully locked system is BY FAR the best system for traction, and not by a little bit. Kyle almost touched on why with the idea of rapidly changing conditions, but perhaps more importantly, all wheels turn at the same speed, so if one wheel loses traction it doesn't start spinning wildly, it stays at the same speed as the ground and much more likely to regain traction. Also by avoiding a spinning wheel it will not dig itself into the ground or sand or mud. I suspect it will be a long time before software systems can out-perform a fully locked system.
I honestly just love all these trucks. The cybertruck will be the right price after founders packages go away IMO. Used Rivians are pretty tempting right now. Can also get a fully loaded F150 with 10k miles for around 50k which seems decent. Nice to have all these great options. Thanks for the video
It would be interesting to see what the Cybertruck would do if you simply unbolted the sway bar links as is commonly done with Jeeps.
Great video! Can’t wait to see when you have access to the cyber truck with the locker enabled! Also would be cool to compare against a Torsen differential on a Raptor if you’ve got access to one.
it wont stand a chance against raptor! the raptor is made for offroad abuse and all the suspension setup for that.