Hearing about how the n@zis idealized ancient sparta is new to me, and is bitterly ironic considering that my grandmother, a spartan woman born and raised in the city of sparta, was left orphaned, malnourished and forever traumatized by the german occupation. She watched her mother drop dead of a heart attack when the tanks rolled into town. She didn't have clavicle bones because of how starved she was as a child. She had to quit school at 13 to get a job. Well into her eighties, I would ask her about her childhood and she would tearfully tell me she didn't want to talk about it. Everyone always wants to be the idealized version of the ancient greeks, but no one ever cares about their real living descendants.
Indeed, we had the privilege to be bombed to smithereens by people with names like Georg or Gregor who could recite Homer in the original. Even now, I as an immigrant has found myself in the tragicomical situation where the extreme right think tank that wants me the fuck out of here is called "oikos".
@@tinfoil_hat7727 idealizing a militaristic state have always been the the get-go of the Far right. Even then it's in a faulty misconception, Sparta wasn't all that great and was a tragic comedy of itself in majority of its history being a failing city for upholding a segregationist policy on state building and was a glorified tourist attraction by the Roman Era. It is in the Byzantine Era and Ottoman Occupation did the Peloponnesian spirit is more admirable than the rambling of ancient Sparta, Even under Last breathe of the Dying Empire did Moria stand to defy the decline as the center of the last Byzantine Renaissance and was it the Greek spirit of the revolutionaries did Greece's orthodox tradition, culture and people stood never devolving into the mockery of the ancient past like Sparta had become during those times.
In relation to greece being "frozen in time" as a Greek, I really felt that. Greece is thought of as a place whose culture has influenced the world yet many times I feel forgotten. Things I consider pivotal to my identity are unknown to most people. When I think of traditional dress, i think foustanella and tsarouchi not of tunics and sandals, and when I think of quintessentially Greek writer Palamas or Papadiamantes comes to mind rather than Euripides or Xenophon. I think of more recent history because I love it but many times I can not search the internet for discussions of it because they don't exist. Sometimes I feel Greek culture is not quite so prevelent as people think.
I really identify with this as a Jewish person. Seems like we exist mostly as symbols for others (either for religious purposes, like with Christians and Muslims, who base their religions on our sacred texts) or as avatars of evil (for people in certain political camps, and conspiracy theorists). But while our foundational myths are just that - myths - we are the genuine descendents of the ancient Jews, and our connection to those ancestors is proven by historical, archaelogical, and even genetic evidence. It's a very strange experience to have our history universalized to prove outsiders' points, and to be written out of our own story. I have felt often like ancient Greek history and myth have been similarly re-appropriated, not in as emotional a way, but in other ways - to serve as the foundational myth of "Western Civilization", where because the Greeks invented democracy and some other ancient Greco-Roman philosophical traditions were likewise imported into the Western European intellectual and political tradition, the western world thinks it owns the entirety of Greekness (without understanding what that even means). I also have an interesting relationship with Greece as a concept, because the Seleucids were one of the Jews' ancient oppressors (we have a whole holiday about surviving their attempt to genocide us out of existence - that's Chanukah!), but also Greece feels very culturally familiar, much in the way other southern and eastern European cultures often do. I went to Greece on my honeymoon and often felt strangely at home, even though I'd never been there before.
@andersschmich8600 fun fact: because of the "byzantine" period, Greeks technically have spent far longer time being Christian Romans than they have spent being Pagan Hellenes
I agree. Greece is so much more than its mythology. I find the history more interesting because in the end, those will be the most human stories. Its impact on Byzantine culture is one of the most fascinating things ever; Christian Greece is so overlooked.
I will say, as a Greek myself, I wholeheartedly agree with many of the points you raised in this video. For any of my foreign friends that enjoy works of fiction, particularly the retellings of ancient greek mythos, I hope I can clear something up that I saw people in the comments of the last video get heated about. Many people that saw no issue with the modern onslaught of feminist retellings of these greek stories, would justify their defense of them by citing that ancient greek and roman culture is spread out around the globe and has shaped in some sense other cultures own mythos. Thus, after millennia, an Englishman can proudly proclaim that he shares the same ownership and understanding of ancient greek mythos as I do, since his forefathers all grew up learning about it, using it as inspiration for their works so on and so forth. I want to make it clear that Greeks in particular that don't like the new young adult fictional retellings of ancient greek stories don't feel this way because of some sense of "ownership" over these stories. It's not like the Greek state would suddenly demand to be given compensation whenever one of these stories is retold, or even plagiarized. And I do not think anyone is arguing for that. What most people are angry about is the dishonesty and the dispassionate approach some authors take towards these myths. I'm talking about blatant misrepresentation or ahistorical inaccuracies. I would never ask of an author to justify their choice of using a greek myth or require them to have a bachelor's degree in the classics. But if you truly love the source material, as you say you do, then why do you make no effort to engage with it honestly? Why do you feel you have the right to say YOUR story of Persephone, while never telling your audience that this is not the actual mythological figure? She could be named Vanessa from Sardinia for all I care, and the plot wouldn't change a bit. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say that some authors are just blatantly capitalising on these popular stories and figures to sell their middle of the road stories. And that's what pisses most people off. And I don't mind that the hypothetical Englishman carries within his psyche a very distorted and 100 times reinvented version of Ancient Greece. But it becomes an issue when he tells me that his version is the correct one. People could very much enjoy a very fictionalised and distorted version of the myths, if they understand that that's what they are doing, not that they are actually learning anything about the original. Just say it's fanfic and move on, no need to feel like your story is on par or closely similar to the original. And I personally do not agree that these fictional stories familiarise a bigger audience with the works. In my humble opinion all they do is perpetuate the distorted Europeanised reinvention of the mythos, one that serves them, not the truthful depiction. If I had to pick between a foreigner learning a butchered story about Agamemnon or not learning about him at all, I would gladly pick the second. I also want to point out that there are many Greeks who also engage dispassionately or incuriously with these stories, even though it is incredibly easy for us to read the source material. So this is not just an us versus them issue, it's a very complicated situation regarding the state of education, arts and information worldwide. To end my comment, your insight and eloquence is very much appreciated. The quality of this video has already progressed immensely since the last, which is a big surprise since I really liked the last on. I don't think I can even comment on the painting, it looks absolutely stunning and brilliant. You are a very much needed voice on this platform when radicalisation is so rampant, raising awareness about better understanding and protecting antiquity.
The point of products is to sell them. Authors are as callous as conmen or lawyers when it comes to making money. Expecting them to respect the sources is rather amusing, given how little most modern people even care to their own cultures.
@@lokenontherange I mean, I understand your point, but it would still seem rather sad for an artform, ie writing, to be downgraded as nothing more than another "product". Oh well, it's not like it's the first time people have pointed out the commodification of art, and subsequently of every other part of the human experience.
@@lokenontherange i get your point, but i would be criticizing the publishers for that fist. the average author wants to tell a story and share their art of writing, publishers are the ones profiting off book sales the most.
@@lokenontherange I think it would be an inaccurate conclusion to group all authors together. There are, certainly, many authors who are only focused on making money and won't adapt the source material with passion or care, but there are author out there who are generally passionate about what they do, and research the best they can even if they depend on the money they make. Generalizations of a massive group of artists does nothing to improve the situation.
@@lokenontherange "Authors are as callous as conmen or lawyers when it comes to making money." I would pretty strongly object to this as a novelist, but maybe not for the reasons you think. I actually think you're partially right. There are authors who really just write pop fiction and want to sell as many copies as possible to make as much money as possible, basing their work off of whatever trend is marketable at any given time. These books generally do not stand the test of time, and will be mostly forgotten in a few years. I think what you have said is true for these authors. But there are still many underground, independent authors who write for the love of writing, their craft, and the art. For every Colleen Hoover there is a Thomas Ligotti, just like for every Drake there is a Black Thought. Drake makes music that, at least since If You're Reading This, just wave-hops and tries to get a hit to maintain his commercial dominance at the cost of the art (his albums haven't been universally praised since), but Black Thought almost always releases fantastic, conscious rap about black struggle, communities, and his experiences regardless of how many copies it sells. The same is true for writers. Unfortunately this is just a reflection of the society we live in, where art can become a commodity and millions of dollars can be made off of just appealing to the dominant trend, be it music, visual art, film, or, of course, literature.
On the one hand I think it's important to share stories between cultures, but it's even more important to be mindful of how we retell them, because by doing so we introduce our own narrative structures and biases that may distort the intent of the original text. What the modern author wants to say can obscure what the ancient author was trying to say, which is a shame. We as humans have so many ideas to share with each other, stories to tell, and it's that diversity and broad array of topics and perspectives that makes each story valuable. None can be replaced by another.
Kind irked me though that she also skimmed over the legacy of The Byzantine Empire and how it was at odds with Hellenism, which the Greeks and even the Ottomans were called romanoi. This mixed identity which is Greek, Hellenes or Roman was a prevelant factor in the politicies and current cultural crisis within Greece which the Remnants of Byzantine Culture being seen as Oriental or from the "Turks".
@@lettuceman94391 y'all don't know what oriental means 🤡 2 Byzantium WAS Greek culturally ethnically and linguistically also nobody in existence view Byzantium as "Turkish" even Turks themselves , the furthest they can do is claim that they're "rum"
@@GalacticR.E.M Oriental means eastern and a lot of Byzantine Traditions is seen as Eastern by Westerners. Again you fell for the Philhellenist trap, Greece is a crossroads between East and West, A lot Byzantine Art, Music, Cuisine and Architecture was a result of this intermingling. When you think of a dome building you mostly think Islamic but it was a persia-Byzantine motif before Islam was even in the timeline, Gibbons tried to discredit Byzantium by making it part of the Barbaric East compared to the enlightened West.
Some people in the comments being so quick to draw a line between Modern Greeks and our ancient counterparts ( Fallmerayer called, he wants his rhetoric back) is the reason I find poignant videos like yours very much needed still. It seems non-Greeks don't realise how close a relationship we have with this part of our heritage. As children, we grown on ancient myths and Aesop's fables the way others grow on fairytales, we interact with ancient ruins in our landscape constantly and we literally study the illiad and the odyssey for two years in middle school as a separate subject. There have been books "based in greek mythology" where I could tell a Greek teenager with a mediocre education has a much better grasp of the culture and stories they're supposed to be inspired from than the authors. Our artists seem to be in constant "artistic discussion" with the products of antiquity in all mediums (I can think of three popular songs based on the Odyssey alone on the top of my head). And yet people act like we don't have a claim to our own culture's history and cultural products. It's so jarring to me how they treat our mythology as free for grabs inspiration, with no respect or nods to modern Greeks. And it's especially aggravating to see Western and northern Europeans adopt this mindset, when they often have a patronising, uninformed and frankly orientalist view on modern Greeks, forged in the years of the financial crisis.
Wow, this has it all: Complex analysis? Check. Coherent opinion and conclusion? Check. Citations? Check. Editing? Smooth, unobtrusive. Music choice? Smashing. Shot comp and direction? Just right. Audio balance and narration style? Top tier. Amazing painting? Check??? Like, wtf, so good. Awesome shit.
I still am a bit baffled why you skimmed over Byzantine Legacy when talking about philhelenism. A large part of the cultural crisis within Greece is that the damage which the romantics had done to neglect and damage the image and study of the Eastern Romans which the Greek Revolutionaries were closer to than ancient Athens and Sparta as the Orthodox Church preserved much of it. Constantinople itself was a center of Learning which rivalled Bagdad as the Renaissance was officially kick-started by the fall of Constantinople leading to many Greek scholars (And Venice stealing everything not nailed to the ground during the 4th crusade and the fall itself) fleeing to Italy and bringing the Renaissance of the 14th Century in full Force. Not really demanding anything since yes I am biased but their is a another point which must be address regarding what Philhellenism and modern pop History regarding ancient Greece had done to the Legacy of the Eastern Romans, One of the bad consequences as the Assignment of Byzantine Culture as "Eastern" or "From the Turks" made to disregard the history, Culture and achievements of the Eastern Roman Empire in the Western World as well as the Plundering of Byzantine Artifacts which is not noticed due to the sole focus on Ancient Greece
A good video that discusses who people view freek culture today is farya faraji's "why greek music sounds eastern and why that's a dumb question". It always bothered me how people seemed to separate ancient greek culture from greek people of today, and this video helped to illuminate rhe issue for me. Anyway, great work!! Both the video and painting are amazing
I think it's so interesting, what you said about reading myths from your own territory. When I read Maya myths, there was something so oddly and beautifully familiar about certain imagery: mountains and vegetation and birds shaking the rain off their wings. Somehow, that seemed so much closer to what I knew than mount Pelion or Ithaca. Same with Aztec mythology, especially now that I moved to Mexico. Lots of cacti? Yeah, there's one just outside my house.
maybe being from Phoenix is why I've connected so much with the history and mythology of the Mexica despite being very much of irish and german descent. It at least takes place in a *place* very vivid in my mind so I can feel connected to it
Pity people don't talk about the influence of Greek stories on western music specifically on the art form of opera. Opera was invented precisely in Renaissance Florence in an attempt by Italian humanists and musicians to revive and actually perform the ancient Greek plays. Someone noticed that there was a chorus in each play so came to the conclusion that those plays were sung right through so serendipedously invented the art form of opera. The early operas were almost invariably based on the Greek legends especially the legend of Orpheus and Eurydice which was an absolute favorite with composers as it involved a musician Orpheus who could charm even wild animals with his music - the first substantial opera "Orfeo" by the Venetian Monteverdi was based on this myth but the story was taken up by many composers the most noteworthy Gluck in the mid eighteenth century with his exquisite take on the story which caused the great philosopher Rousseau , after he attended a performance, to exclaim that the music was so perfect in this work that no more music should ever be composed as it would never reach the level of perfection reached in this score.Gluck went on to compose equally beguiling masterpieces like the myth of Alceste the bereaved lady who offered herself to Death in exchange for her husband and Gluck also did the Paris and Helen story as well as two masterpieces on the Iphigenia legends. One hundred years later French composer Offenbach did a spoof on the Orpheus legend as well as on the Helen myth and instead of the blessed spirits in Elysium dancing to serene and stately minuets he has them doing the Can Can - a dance which of course was recently performed at the Paris Olympics.During the opening ceremony of the Athens Olympic there was a tribute tableaux to famed Greek opera singer Maria Callas - a singer who not only sang numerous roles involving Greek heroines like Medea but she also did a film of the original Euripides play.
As an English person I think the reason that Greek Myth has the reputation and the appeal that it does, and part of the reason we take the stories of another place as our own as you point out, is that we have so little true mythology of our own to point to. Tolkien was an avid fan of myth and legend obviously and said that one of the worst effects of the Norman Conquest was the destruction of so much Anglo-Saxon culture and the final remnants of our pre-christian roots were largely demolished after that. Because of that, we gravitate towards the mythology of other places because it's a type of story we have largely lost. Also, myths as a story format are deeply enjoyable. And if you don't have a mythology of your own, then you seek out those of different cultures to experience theirs. It's not always done ethically, the British museum as you mentioned is questionable. But I'm also an English teacher and the joy of discovery that students have in reading and discussing Greek myths are honestly some of the best experiences you see in a classroom. It would be brilliant if they had a mythology or an epic of their own to study but sadly they don't exist in the same way as Greek myth does. The closest thing is Beowulf and even then the setting is outside of England so you don't get the tie to the land like you mentioned with your own nations local myths. This isn't to excuse our checkered past when it comes to our relationship with Ancient Greek culture, we are definitely on shakey ground there, but just thought the added context might be interesting.
I kind of second this. Much of Germanic and Celtic (and other European) culture is inevitably lost, because it never had the chance to speak for itself. Many of those cultures were (primarily) oral, so we got little bits of it filtered through a Greek and Roman lense first, then a Christian one later. Not even talking about so much that didn't survive at all. But I think it also has also to do with the association of myths. Greece and Rome were both immensely influential in Europe and powerful. It's always appealing for people to see themselves in the tradition of empires (which medieval people already did, too)
I also agree with this. Greek mythology and how it overshadows some other cultures is an issue that needs to be regarded, but the myths of Greece really do teach good lessons. I like that your comment is a justification, not an excuse.
It's a shame we don't focus on our own ancient stories.I'm reading Beowulf right now and it's hard to describe the feeling of it, but I do genuinely emotionally connect with it as something from our ancient past.
I think, in the mind of the average anglo/american/even european, Ancient Greece has nothing to do with modern Greece. The appropriation, for the lack of a better word, of Ancient Greece is essentially complete, whereby an author may feel responsibility in correctly and respectfully reproducing, say, Japanese culture, but feels no such responsibility towards Greece, because Ancient Greece has ceased to be Greek heritage, it is now everyone's heritage. And thus, the average author can simply present their own story, which has little to do with Ancient Greece, as a Greek retelling without feeling like they owe any due to the modern descendants of the same people they capitalize on. The same issue can be seen with Egypt, whereby Ancient Egypt and modern Egypt are barely seen as the same civilizations. In both cases, I would argue, the issue is orientalism to an extent. Greeks are simply seen as too eastern, too Balkan, too Christian, too Byzantine, even too ottoman. Egyptians are seen as too arab. It is up to the westernman to come pick up the pieces of their history and culture, and consequently, save Ancient Greece and Egypt from the clutches of these strangers.
Wow I have never thought of the Greeks' perspective on the issue of cultural appropriation. Even worse they question your identity! There should be a word for this, it is easier to talk about the issue if it has a name.
@@mishasa2751it’s a western tradition that is very old. Even today westerners unironically believe that Ancient Greece is their history, and anything that deviates from their delusion (ie the real Greece) is Turkish
Ironic because Byzantium and modern Greece is more reflective of the real situation even in classical times more than any German will ever be. Byzantium is actually the sole reason Germanics even know what Ancient Greece is.
Another fantastic essay and I would absolutely LOVE to hear you talk more about how the roman empire after the fall of rome was largely forgotten by the west, even though it continued to exist for another thousand years based in constantinople. It's incredible how little people care about the byzantines since there's a crazy historical domino effect from Empress Irene of Athens to literally all of world history after that. The only reason Charlemagne was crowned emperor of the romans was because the pope didn't believe a woman could be emperor, so they saw themselves as restoring the empire that was lost (but again, wasn't lost! was still existing, right there, extremely wealthy and powerful!). Then western europe decides to engage in the crusades to "restore" christendom, which for some reason involved sacking constantinople, the seat of the ecumenical patriarchate, which left the empire vulnerable to ottoman attack, the ottomans took over and cut off western european access to the silk road and asian trade, so they started looking for sea routes to china & india, cue columbus, all of european imperialism and all the effects we still have today. ALL because charlie and leo didn't think irene counted. you would think that would be important to learn in history class, but alas, it doesn't suit the narrative of western exceptionalism.
I am interested in your persepective because it is mostly non-Greek people making counter-arguments. I am Muslim but very into Greek mythology and culture as I think it is very rich in culture, history and meaning. From my perspective, because modern day Greek is perceived to have proximity to 'Whiteness' people are more comfortable appropriating and even imposing on its mythology.
You are so incredibly intelligent, I love listening to your thoughts on these subjects. I find your videos so inspiring, especially as a fan of Greek Myth. It's so easy to view it as something that belongs to everyone with all these retellings, but there is a responsibility that comes with it that a bunch of these authors don't seem to care about or acknowledge! It's eye opening for me, really. Well done, just as your last video!!! Can't wait to see what else you do ☺️💗
I LOVE this style of video: painting with a voiceover in the background. Please keep up the great work, you’ve quickly become one of my favorite creators.
You have a number of really nuanced and deep thoughts on this that echo problems I've had with "feminist" retellings (I do firmly think that's been overused as a label) as a marketable trend. I could echo a lot of these critiques with how fairy tales are retold, specifically always as a subversion, as though we have to fix what was there without ever questioning if it needed fixing, and meanwhile overlooking everything else. When you mentioned how many of these retellings skirt around slavery, I thought about how every. single. fairy tale retelling is about gender, namely fixing gender and romance to be more appealing to our 21st century lens of dating and womanhood. This is really obvious in Disney live-action remakes but it's just the overwhelming trend, such that "not your typical fairytale" is the most typical fairytale marketing thing and has been since before I was born. Shrek started the trend but you already saw it in Ever After (which I love, for the record) or even Rocky and Bullwinkle's Fractured Fairy Tales. Our Cinderella has to date the prince for a while and have career aspirations, because feminism TM, but she won't ever be aromantic asexual and uninterested in marrying. She needs to save herself (she's not a passive helpless victim!!!- I hate this, it's such victim blaming) but in the retelling we almost always remove her godmother/reincarnated animal mother character, the person who the presumed child audience of the original tales *should* look to for help, and the character whose love and support keeps the heroine safe and grounded during the abuse and gives her the means to escape. It's always about fixing the romance without a passing glance at the mother-daughter relationship. Meanwhile we will almost never address the following topics because they are icky and corporate doesn't like it: race, disability, class, queerness, transness, religion etc. Despite the fact that there is plenty to discuss and critique about these subjects and how they show up in European fairy tales. Shoutout to Ever After and Princess Arete for being mostly about class (with gender as an added element) and just being really good movies.
Another terrific video that feels like it's plucking things straight from my own recent hyperfixations and organizing them way better than I could. I wanna add my two cents to something mentioned in the conclusion: While the old "learn history so as to not repeat it" line is a bit of a cliche and probably not the true purpose to studying history or the arts, as an International Relations major, the classics popped up a ton. The Melian dialogue is still relevant as the forerunner of realism. There's a phrase called "the Thucydides trap" which refers to Thucydides's theory that war between Athens and Sparta was essentially inevitable, as when one great power rises in the same region in another, (in his case, Sparta to Athens) the only two options for the latter are to accept losing hegemony or fight for it. (And some realist scholars apply this ominously to China-USA)
undergraduate classicist with a small correction here! 🤓☝the etymology of the word "classicism" is not from the latin clamo, but rather from the latin word classicus, which originally meant to belong to the navel fleet (e.g miles classicus, a naval soldier/marine) or belonging to the highest class of the citizenry, classicus went on to be used to refer to the "highest ranking" latin literature (generally works from the 1st century BCE and CE) by later latin speakers.
Your essay was so interesting, so layered with meaning and discovery that I had to watch it twice and will likely continue to come back to it periodically. Love your work. And being able to watch you paint at the same time - how does it get better than that!
I really appreciate the points you make about why we actually study history, how limited comparisons to modern events can actually be, and just how patronizing we often are about Ye Olde Stupid Times, unless perhaps they have a few token cool things we can admire in a shallow way. I see this a lot with revisions to the public image of one historical culture or another (some of which are very needed) with implicit value judgements. “They made great architecture, they had writing, they had great medicine and waterworks” with the unstated judgment that other people who didn’t have those things were weak and stupid. Obviously this thinking values writing over oral traditions, but it also often goes beyond admiring a cool thing to stating outright that lacking the cool thing makes you backwards, and I’m just not okay with that. Medieval Europe gets hit with this treatment compared to Early Modern Europe and concurrent Asia and Africa, which I feel is unfair because you can find those cultures cool without making judgements that incidentally show just how little you value modern countries where lots of people lack access to clean water, medicine etc. Does lacking access to clean water or formal education make you stupid and backwards? Does high infant mortality make you callous, or do you just gain a different perspective on death? There’s all kinds of reasons a culture might not have built monumental architecture, from political organization to ongoing wars to environment and resources to just not valuing that kind of thing. I wish more people would set aside historical cultures as action figures with accessories and playsets to make memes out of (think everything relating to Warring States Japan). I just want to treat them as people living their lives in worlds very different but not fully alien to ours.
I think you just perfectly captured something I've never been able to say quite right. I don't have much to add besides that this was such a well said and thoughtful comment, and that I think everyone needs to hear the line, 'Does high infant mortality make you callous, or do you just gain a different perspective on death?'. Your comment resonates with me so much, you managed to add another important layer to this equally as amazing video.
This video is so beautiful and immaculate, I'm amazed. I have to admit, to my shame, that after watching your last video about Greek myth retellings, I very much felt the very sentiment you rebut in this video; the idea that as 'Westerners', we have some sort of equal claim to classic works and ideas as actual Greek people. This video was so enlightening - it never occurred to me just how much of what I believed (as an Australian) to be our collective, Western cultural heritage is actually elitist historical revisionism, or how exactly we came to view Greek and Roman history as belonging to the entirety of Europe (and its former colonies). Brava!
I wouldnt Put too much thought to IT since its Not Like the greeks we're that gatekeeping about their culture spread IT far into sicily north africa over Persia nearly into India, Heck a greek State Had Interactions with China .
Man this video is difficult to watch, because I keep having to consciously shift my focus to the fascinating historiography and away from the ***phenomenal*** painting.
I did my whole senior thesis on the Orphic mysteries and the context in which they existed because I’ve loved mythology of all kinds but Hades introduced me to the Orphic mysteries, and I think the way we adopt mythology into the modern age is important because keeping at least some form of those stories alive is intrinsic to making people care about history in general. However, taking these stories out of the context in which the existed is where we fall short in our whole understanding of history and the tales of ancient times. It’s a tough situation to be in…
I absolutely love Mary Renault, I'm so glad you mentioned her. I read Fire From Heaven and The Persian Boy as a young teen, and they inspired me to study Greek, Latin and Classical History in later life. It's very strange, how a book can make such an impression that it changes your life.
Interesting take. May I ask, if one can expect more videos in the future relating to antiquity? Your (self?)portrait is very beautiful. As a German obsessed with antiquity and the German romantics, I would like to add that, though Humboldt was responsible for the large scale implementation of Ancient Greek and Latin studies in German higher education and the formation of a German learning canon (Bildungsideal), the German obsession with Greek art, sculpture and architecture began with the writings of Johann Joachim Winckelmann, who is considered to be among the first modern archaelogists because of his systematizing approach to Greek and Roman sculpture, which was based on stylistic analysis. He was the first prominent figure favouring the Greeks against the Romans, which also had political connotations (Winckelmann was a proponnent of democracy; Rome was instrumentalised by the French Ancién Regime). I'm always baffled at, how elitist the study of classical languages is considered to be in the UK, because in Germany the study of Latin is nothing special and offered in the majority of schools. Only Greek is seen as something rare and is usually only offered in tradional schools of humanistic learning (what we call humanistisches Gymnasium). Keep up the input. You would be a great addition to the videos The Lady of the Library is producing.
That’s fascinating - thank you so much for sharing! Honestly wish I'd done more of a deep dive into German philhellenism in this video. I’m hoping to make more videos in the future, though this is probably the last vid I'll make on Greek myth adaptations (I think I've said all I have to say at this point!)
I'm so glad you uploaded again! I've been thinking about your last video since i saw it. It was super well thought out and I'm glad that you're using this video to expand on some of those ideas.
Ok, so I just want to preface this by saying I haven’t watched this video (yet!), but I find some of the points brought up in the comments interesting to discuss. While I agree that cultural mindfulness is integral to appropriately translating (and adapting) older works, I also want to question what makes an ancient Greek. Certainly a modern day Greek person will have many connections to the ancient Greek language and, to an extent, the culture, but in fact the two concepts of ancient and modern Greekness seem entirely separate to me. Greek culture has gone far beyond its ancient form; if you asked me to name a Greek poet I would not think of Homer, I would think of Cavafy. A similar point is better demonstrated by an actual Greek person in the comments. Adding onto that, ancient Greece doesn’t only apply to modern day Greece. For example, the island my family is from in Croatia was historically part of ancient Greece. Similar things can be said for much of the Mediterranean; does this mythology belong to me then? I’m not so sure. While Greek culture in its own right deserves respect and representation, I do think that ancient Greek mythology has surpassed cultural borders. The same could be said for Abrahamic religion, which no longer just belongs to Jewish people (obviously). Of course it is important to stay culturally conscious, but given the nature of ancient Greece (a collection of poleis, some more or less colonial, pivotal to the later founding of the Roman Empire, etc.) I do think no one can really claim ownership in the traditional sense anymore. Edit: I also want to add that some of the issues I see in the world of classics and Greek mythology retellings is the “fandomisation” of it. It can’t be helped, given the popularity of so many Greek myth-inspired works (Percy Jackson, Lore Olympus, Hadestown, Epic, etc.), but it results in a very watered down version of the story and culture. Honestly if you ask me, ancient Greece needs to stop being treated like a monolith. The poleis were very unique and diverse.
Would you question modern Chinese people's ownership of their ancient culture in a similar way? Of course our modern culture is different. It is also similar in ways hard to see for an outsider.
@@yllejord I never said there aren’t similarities though. I may not have phrased my point clearly, because all I’m saying is that modern day Greece alone can not be considered the sole representative of ancient Greece. You bring up ancient China, so I’ll try to use it as a comparison. Depending on what you count as “ancient”, both modern day Turkestan and Tibet were parts of ancient China, and yet they have their own unique traditions, cultures, religions, etc. Nowhere am I discounting their shared ancient history or even (somewhat) similar cultures, but the same way *my* island in Croatia was part of ancient Greece, and then the Roman Empire, etc. etc., I am arguing that you can’t treat ancient Greece like a monolith. Ancient Greece surpassed what its modern borders have and arguably, other than being Mediterranean, countries like Croatia, Macedonia, Turkey, etc. are *not* similar to Greece, and yet historically we have as much claim to the poleis as any other. And who knows, because the poleis were so different, certain areas in the rest of the Mediterranean may be more culturally similar to that specific ancient Greek polis than, say, Athens or the rest of “modern” Greece (but this is a speculation on my part). I know this is a particularly contentious issue but even Turks/Turkey could lay claim to ancient Greek culture and history - there’s Turks in Cyprus, Troy is in Turkey, and there’s an abundance of ancient Greek archaeology in the area. I’m not discounting any sort of cultural connections because I know they exist, but what my argument is trying to articulate is that all these other countries can be argued to also “own” the collective ancient mythology/history. That is what I mean by no one can claim ownership in the traditional sense. Obviously I’m more than happy to see Greece celebrate its ancient past, and Athens will always remain the unofficial “capital” of the ancient Greek world in my eyes. Basically my initial comment was trying to say that I don’t think one single modern country can claim the entire history/culture; it’d be akin to a modern Turk claiming that Ottoman culture is all theirs, when in fact a lot of Ottoman culture was absorbed from the places it colonised (including Greece). The reason I say all this is not to discount your ancient history as being yours, it absolutely is, but I’m also wary of these kinds of claims because as an archaeology student I’ve seen it be used to stoke various sentiments where the history is off to some degree. What I wish was that more energy was put into uplifting modern Greek culture, some of which is connected to the ancients and some of which isn’t. I think this would also solve a lot of cultural problems in Greece (e.g. if the British had any sort of respect for Greece’s *modern* history, they’d understand why their hold on the Parthenon marbles can be considered an act of colonialism). Sorry if this is messy but those were the points I was trying to make. Have a good day 🙏🏼
@@DinaHayek-u7y thank you for this detailed response. My reaction was to this: "but in fact the two concepts of ancient and modern Greekness seem entirely separate to me." I brought up China as an example for precisely the reasons you point out. Not a monolith with a broad influence. At this point I would like to make perfectly clear that I'm not coming from a nationalist's point of view, in fact I detest nationalism. The cultural continuity is a matter of neither DNA or geography, but of continued lived experience. There's a whole 2000 years separating ancient and modern Greece and if you ask a random person what the Greeks were up to during this time, I don't think they would know. And they're not obliged to know either. We just went on being Greeks, as Romans, Venetians, Franks and Turks came and went. But this knowledge gap can very easily be filled with narratives like Fallmerayer's (his being the extreme end of the spectrum). My question is, how is the partaking of ancient greek heritage and a claim to it experienced by non-Greeks, who all have their own distinct cultures? Like, what form does it take in one's everyday life?
@@yllejord Ah, I see - looking back on it I phrased that initial sentence poorly. My intention was less to undermine clear cultural connections between ancient and modern Greece and more to emphasise the importance (and better historical understanding) of the latter entity, but I understand why it came off differently. I agree with your comment on the idea of a continued lived experience over geography and DNA. When I think of specifically ancient Greek heritage, I think of the little fragments we have remaining of ancient Greece. That is to say, I think of the fragmented mythology, the pottery (some of which we’ve yet to make sense of, like on Keros), the surviving and renowned poets and philosophers like Homer, Sappho, Plato, etc. All very culturally significant but in fact very small glimpses into ancient Greek life, as you said. Even so, from my understanding they are studied with great care in Greece today, and also in many of the Balkan countries. The thing is, pottery and more broadly a variety of small and large ancient Greek material culture can be found all over the Mediterranean. Croatia is actually quite minuscule comparatively to, say, Turkey, but even so it is significant to us and our cultural + archaeological scene. From my personal experience I would say that the two identities sort of coexist. No Croatian considers themselves Greek or Italian, though some Italians would perhaps like Dalmatians to think otherwise. We are, by nature, a mixed people at the crossroads of various empires for our entire history, and what that has formed is a unique Croatian culture. We have Slavic, Ottoman, Germanic, and even ancient Greek and Roman cultural heritage which is predominantly found in Dalmatia. We are not Greeks because our language differs and we’ve had different experiences in the larger span of history. But at the same time we consider this archaeology “ours” - in the sense that we know both ancient Greeks and Romans were on our land, and that although not the exact same, much of Balkan culture is largely similar for these sorts of ethnographic reasons. We study this history, as well as the mythology in more detail, but how relevant it is will depend on the Croat and region. But, at least within my family, we do know that was “us”, or at the very least it’s shaped our culture and interaction with history. But we are unique because somewhere along the line, we split. Sorry if this is extremely convoluted, but it was a good question and I wanted to address the sort of paradox of being both “of” and not of that ancient Greece. In short, ancient Greece and Rome are both significant to us because they make up our larger cultural scene (especially in the realm of archaeology). Moreover, we recognise a decent amount of similarities between our cultures that may be either geographical or historical, or both. We are not ancient Greek, but ancient Greeks have contributed to us in a significant way. At least that’s how the people I’ve surrounded myself with see it. The main reason I pointed this out initially is because I’m wary of broad statements like “only modern Greeks can truly understand/work with/make sense of ancient Greece”. I know the video does not state this at all but it’s an argument I’ve seen before, sometimes to do with cultural appropriation (which is a valid concern) but also sometimes to push agendas like North Macedonians actually just being Greeks, etc etc. Even though literally speaking, I as a Croat have a better chance of conversing with a Macedonian than a Greek person. No one’s denying a possible ethnic connection, and that’s not a reason to strip them of their evident ancient history, but so many things have happened in between to make them not Greek. I suppose that’s why I feel iffy about equating ancient and modern Greece. Modern Greece is surely most similar to what we have of ancient Greece, but that shouldn’t discount the history of other modern nations who have since become their own unique cultures. I always like to think of modern nations as a mosaic of sorts, with each part being taken into account. I think something that may play a part as well is that Greece was exempt from the so-called Yugoslav experience, which was bound to prioritise the Communist Revolution over a fragmentary history which, to the anti-nationalist’s eyes is of little importance (not to say claiming to be ancient Greek is inherently nationalist, but they wanted nothing to do with these kinds of identities). So it’s a slippery slope, but in cultural discussions I prefer to look at empirical evidence. Are we Greek? No (or maybe some are ethnically, who knows, but we don’t call ourselves Greek and that’s what matters). Do we have archaeology of ancient Greece on our land? Yes, for sure, and it contributes to our culture. So to me that makes us valid “inheritors”, so to speak. It’s not like we stole this culture from the Greeks, rather they came here for whatever reason and made their own settlements. This was ridiculously long and a little nonsensical, but I hope that answers your question well enough. Thank you for your response!
While I see where you're coming from there is the question of: Is this your call to make? And I am going to use the term 'you' generally here. You mentioned how Ancient Greek culture has surpassed borders therefore no one claim ownership, I disagree. While I do not think the authority is strictly within the borders of modern Greece but with the people who it directly impacted the most, those who preserved it, and those who are carrying it on. Hellenism is not completely dead. Another example would be Egypt, it is a majority Muslim nation now but they very much preserved a lot of its ancient history, and have ancestral connection to those who created it, herefore they have authority over it. You mentioned Abrahamic religions and while it may not just belong to Jewish people, it isn't a free for all either. People of either three religions seldom allow outsiders to impose on our doctrine and people who do are often met with backlash. But the comparison between Abrahamic religions and Hellenism is not a fair one either. As a person from a country who has been the victim of European colonialism and appropriation, I think 'cultures should be shared' is a cop out for people to impose somewhere they doesn't belong. When in reality, a shared culture means you are guest to the culture that is being shared with you.
Like what you say for rome, it's interesting that we start talking a lot less about ancient greek civilization once it becomes more implanted in asia and africa (hellenistic world), even though that's the time greek culture was the most influential in history
Very true. The general knowledge and study of Greek history seems to peter out after Alexander dies and the fascinating cultural synthesis between local cultures in Egypt and Mesopotamia.
This doesn't stop at books, it encomapsses Greek Music, religions, food and language. So called "Hellenism" (refered to by Greek practitioners as Olympianism) as a neo-paganism has literally taken the name used to describe Greek Identity, and taken it as it's own.
I don't think it helps that a lot of the most prominent voices in neo-paganism consistently spread misinformation and interchange labels whenever they feel like it.
YES! I've been looking forward to this since you mentioned making a longer vid in your last upload! You have got such a good eye for video essays, thank you for uploading!
Not related to this video topic but I LOVE your voice. I don't love my recording voice, it sounds so childish which also kept me from making video essay (I wish to make on my favourite books). That's why I'm so envious of people who have nice voices. You deserve millions of views on your video essays :)
For someone who has been trying hard to mirror, although not copy history and myth in their own writing. This sort of topic has always been in my head in general, and as someone with a historical background, I always put the history first when thinking about this sort of topic. Yet at the same time I feel this is one of the most important parts when I am trying to world build. These aren't just stories, these are people, this is what makes us who we are. So when it comes to Greece, and other such cultures, that even though I have knowledge of and familiarity. Still need to think about it, and I am glad to at least some extent that my goal isn't to retold. Instead look at them and wonder, giving a take take in a new world. Giving me the chance to expose new people to how people interrupt stories, people and civilization, and not really covered has it is its own rabbit hole. The idea of calling themselves Greek or Romans is one thing that always comes to mind. The amount of people claiming to be Roman, from the Holy Roman Empire, the Ottoman, the Sultanate of Rûm, the Russian Empire, the United States, France, the Seljuk Empire, and so many more. As you stated in your video, the Greeks had the same problem. It is interesting, and something that I want to try to dip my toes into. If only to show people that haven't experience it, the chance to take a peak inside the craziness which is the historical community, and the nonsense we talk about. Back to the idea of myths and retelling. I, must admit, the deep dive into this topic, has always made me think. No matter what we do there is no way we can escape the bias, and the millennia of people doing the same thing. Leaving us where we are today. Trying to consume this everything bagel that has been place on our table to try to eat, knowing full well that some thing we don't like, and some thing that we might have allergies too. It a big mess, that I haven't figured out the answer to, and I doubt anyone else had the chance to figure out either. Looking back in history and trying to figure out what it all means, knowing full well that it is beyond any understanding that we can pull off today. All we can do is hope we at least get something right, and have that same hope shared with everyone else. Edit: Honestly, I always question why I care about history, and why does history matter. It is something that I always seem to find easier with the former and the later I always end up changing my mind on. I care because those are untold stories, it is said 117,000,000,000 humans have lived on this planet, and it is said that only 129,864,880 unique book exist today. That is only a fraction of a fraction of the number of stories that could be told, not to mention all the ones we have lost to time. Now for the later question, the why it matters? I don't know, if we forget our entire history not counting the last few hundred years today, will it really matter? I mean, technically that already happened. With so much of the details lost to us, I find it hard to truly wrap my brain around how much we already lost. Not to mention you can only trace back you family a few hundred years, and there are family trees that can go back to the 700s if I remember correctly. Compared to the billions of years life existed on this one single planet, that is nothing. It is just crazy to think, and I can't truly wrap my head around it sometimes.
I wanted to touch on the excerpt you read about Fallmerayer around 27:10 : Fallmerayer is a strange figure, having first written a history of the medieval Byzantine Empire of Trebizond, expressing admiration for the Greeks therein. Only when he wrote about the history of the Peloponnese did he put forward this theory that all Greeks were Slavs. I think it should also be mentioned that it was considered a strange theory even back then, with many historians coming out against it. Moreover, there's an argument that the entire theory was political in nature - Fallmerayer worked for the King of Bavaria, whose son became King of Greece around the time Fallmerayer put out this theory - in fact, Fallmerayer ended up fired from his university job because of this.
17:45 Just coming at it from the angle of a half Greek Cypriot, but I always find the 'America is literally Rome' argument to be very tired and more than anything based on US exceptionalism. Oh? So out of all the other countries in the world its America which is like Rome and it's modern mirror/successor? What about France? I mean, they speed ran Rome's systems of government from 1789 to 1815 (kingdom, Republic, dictatorship/consulate, empire) but you don't hear them being called 'the new Rome' to the same extent as America.
As a medievalist, I understand your avoidance of getting too far into the 'medieval' attitude to Greece, Rome and the classics. Not least because the time period is over 1000 years, my fav Holy Roman Empire, and much of their view of many Greek classics is actually formed by Arab scholars and their analyses. And the other aspects they take on are so removed from our interests it seems strange, perhaps with the exception of governance. But I do love your weaving of fiction and narrative in with the analysis as examples and argumentation. It makes for a great explanation of 'why history.' The painting is gorgeous ❤
Wow! Another great video of yours! I had to take three days to finish this video just so I can consume every information and not missing anything. You've explained and shown each aspect very beautifully and I can inly agree with your thoughts.
Excellent video! Interestingly, Lord Elgin’s son, the next Lord Elgin, continued his father’s imperialist legacy and went on giving the very same treatment that he father did to the Parthenon to the Old Summer Palace in China during the Opium Wars.
Wow I was thinking about your last video and checked my recommendation and saw this, glad you are keeping up the good work Don’t have much more to add but I hope this boosts you in the algorithm
I loved to listen to your viewpoints while watching you create that marvelous painting. I can also fully relate to your worries about the perception and education opportunities of ancient history and culture. My uni had to protect its ancient faculties- especially the Egyptology faculty that I graduated - more than once in the past too. It was spared - but for how long, nobody knows.
This video is amazing! The depth in which you talk about everything is really intriguing and I love how well structured the video is! My audhd brain does want me to note tho, that you pronounced renaissance a little weird.. and that kinda made me shiver..
Mary Renault's 'the king must die' was the first time I read a retelling that really connected myth to (theories about) ancient traditions and places that are still here. I find the question of the "ownership" (for lack of a better word) of greek myths complex. I live in the Netherlands, and some of our oldest cities, including the one where I live, started as roman castellums. There are roman ruins less then a mile of my house. Its also a realtively well perserved literary tradition with a lot of first hand sources).To me it is not suprising that people feel connected with greek and roman history, i just think its sad when it loses all its specificity of time and place. I think in a way in for example Homers work (wich was set a few hunders years before it was written down, and does not really bother to really distinguish between different cultures) is relatively vulnerable for being stripped of their context. I agree that we should be carefull and conscious of this when we publish retellings.
The only modern retelling I read was Circe and I was thoroughly unimpressed. Far from being a feminist take, the words "internalised misogyny: a novel" kept echoing in my head as I was reading. It is aggravating, how our ancient cultural has been appropriated by western Europeans to be used for their white supremacy purposes. Taking it out of its context, placing it on a pedestal, naming it the cradle of civilisation and then adopting it as their own heritage. Ours is and always has been just another chunk swimming around in the rich Mediterranean culture soup. It is now widely accepted that cultural appropriation is a bad thing, and correctly so. It just baffles me how casually ancient Greek culture is excluded from this discourse. Imagine a wave of ancient Chinese or ancient Indian myth retellings by western authors. It would be nice if people who wanted to make a career out of it had at least the feeling that this is someone else's heritage they're making their money out of. And it would be nice if they wanted to give back somehow, like trying to find Greek cover artists or research advisors, promoting charities active in Greece, I don't know, they're the creatives I'm sure they can find a way.
When it's a retelling we need to be clear that it's a retelling. I hear a lot of people treating Ovid as canon, and he was retelling Greek myth in his time for his audience, like modern authors do for modern audiences
As a person about read classics and history at degree level, who discovered a love of the subject through 'feminist retellings of Greek mythology', I found this video essay amazing. I often look at those books with a fondness, they birthed my love for antiquity, but they are not impervious to critique. I found your comments on the historical inaccessibility and misuse of classics familiar but i never thought how prevalent it still is in the present day. I hope to start my classics degree with a new moral perspective, inspired by this essay. Thank you so much! Ps. your portrait was beautiful! :)
Such an interesting perspective, 3:19 - I read The Secret History as a mock of students like Henry, Francis, and others. I thought it did critique how exclusionary academia is, to the point that the main character had to create a facade to “fit in”
as a classics and art student, i’ll say that i think the two subjects work together fantastically but it was extremely difficult to find a good list of colleges that have good opportunities in both
I've been thinking about the "the past is a different country" quote recently and wondering if it even works in the modern day, when we have the Internet and the differences between countries are being somewhat flattened. When I travel, I can usually expect to find English-speaking locals, my customs as an American are known and accepted/tolerated, and my phone and modern technology remain with me. But the distant past is almost on another level of difference. I offhandedly mentioned to my students that in ancient Rome, girl children often didn't have first names, but rather numbers, so a Claudius would have daughters called Claudia Prima, Secunda, Tertia, etc. And my students looked HORRIFIED at this, since today a personal name means so much. Thinking about infant exposure, slavery, the universality of the Roman religion, and the lack of technology that is so everyday to us makes the world of ancient Rome almost impossible to conceptualize. (I think this is part of why many myth retellings do not hit for me, and I'll admit your other video has been tempting me to write a novel grounded in the realism of everyday life and religious practice in ancient Rome to correct for that...) also, this is a video essay for the ages! Gonna send this to all my classics friends. It's also reaffirming my feeling that I should expand my study of Latin (my particular classics niche) beyond the boundaries of the Roman Republic and Empire - thankfully I'm in a wonderful department that offers classes in things like Renaissance and colonial American Latin.
I think picking up a story inspired by greek Mythologie means a 50/50 chance the storz will be good because books these days are all the same and lack “drama and tragedie
I always felt the larger West's conception of statecraft had always more come from as a blend between the ideas within the Roman or Byzantine state, Germanic feudalism, and the church unless a state was a creation of the 19th century or later. Greece being forced to be a cultural one-hit wonder for the sake of us avoiding our own authenticity is a great tragedy. Let Greece be Greece.
I disagree with giving the people in the past a blank check. We should have the right to question even the past. Isn't there a quote by Euripides to question everything? People in the past were very judgemental with those who didn't fit in. Those they deem lacking were at best ostersized, and often even murdered. Even infants. If I was born in ancient Greece, I probably wouldn't have seen my first birthday, because I was born premature and I weighed less than five pounds at birth. It is very easy to look at people from the past without judgment if you are not disabled, from a discriminated minority group. I am a black woman from the United States. While the current time is not perfect, my life as a black woman is a hell alot better than the lives of black women who lived prior to the 1980s. I think it is important to remember that to many people the past was terrible, and they have a right to judge people who lived in the past.
Right, prejudice is prejudice no matter what time period it’s in :/ Just because it was common people tend to think that it’s somehow okay and it’s not 😭
In a way Atwood did what all other Greek Myth Retellings claim to do. She gave a voice to the invisible women of ancient times. Not Penelope, but her handmaidens.
i think something to keep in mind is that greeks reinterpreted there own myths as time went on. i dont mean modern Greeks to ancient greeks no i mean ancient greek to ancient greeks. Hellenistic period greece a different understanding and different retailing of the myths then classical period greece. and different regions had different myths for certain gods or different aspect to gods. Dionysus started as this big bearded guy and ended up becoming this hot twink all within antiquity. i dont see too big of a difference between modern retellings and the changes that happened during antiquity. speaking as a greek
Thanks for bringing this up. I feel like glossing over the revisionist nature of myth- making and storytelling gets lost in a cumulative sense of a "true" history or objective account-and that any story subject to be repeated will change between retellings.
I really like your point of view and the contextualization of how classics came to be a study. With that said, i do take issue with the collapsing of classic myth into their written pieces, especially the illiad and the odyssey. The illiad and the odyssey were not written in a single sitting or by a single person... They were told and refined over hundreds if not thousands of years in taverns by entertainers. Therefore, there is no "true" myth there, unlike the plays of Antigone or Medea which were written within the context of myth at the time, but intentionally structured by an author. By the time "Homer" got around to writing these myths down, they had already been devoid of their initial context by centuries. Therefore, when people try to do "feminist retellings" or whatever (though i do think the term "rephrasings" would be better than "retellings") of the illiad and odyssey i kinda see it as the continuation of the ancient bard playing to a tavern audience... In that way, i think it can be a very beautiful continuation of an ancient story. Sure not all of them are winners and we should engage in critique, but to say that they are not "accurate" to the initial story is unfair when the true story, if we can even say there ever was one, was lost as soon as it was first uttered in an ancient tavern.
As a person with a lifelong passion for the Classics(tm), this is one of the most insightful and incredible videos on this subject that I've ever seen, and I really love your content. I was curious if you have read Madeline Miller's Circe. I believe you mentioned her debut novel, The Song of Achilles in your last video, but in my opinion, Circe is a much better book with much more to say and much more care in rooting itself in the time period. Looking forward to seeing more of your work!
Why do you keep conflating Athenian ideas of democracy with modern American or British ideas of democracy? Apart from having similar names they have little in common at all.
Mainly because of attribution, Christianity for example have more contribution in the development of modern Democracies than the Oligarchy which Athens would become devolve later. Granted the Foundation is there but the Romantic period did a number on this perception disregarding the developments made in the Middle ages and Early Modern Period.
@nikosnikos5082 Given her rant on Boris Johnson being anti democracy because of prorogation unlike his hero Perikles - who by modern standards was a genuinely awful person whose idea of democracy was sexist, classist, racist, and fine with slavery - your interpretation seems a bit weird if that's her point. If it was her position you'd think she'd just yknow, actually argue that position.
@@lettuceman9439 ironically as much as the Americans like to refer to Russian oligarchs that is also a pretty good descriptor for how America functions as well tbh. So I suppose that at least is something the Americans share with Athens
I wouldnt compared any modern State to atheanian democracy they offer to make Peace with you ON one day and avocate your destruction and enslavement the next day, If you think russia IS unpredictable you never ready anything about athens
great video, but i don't really think you can talk about this without taking greek/roman colonization of parts of europe or the general huge influence greece/rome had into account. for one, i don't think we can think of it in the terms we would, say, smudging in many native american practices or the romani languages, because hellenism doesn't have that sort of a history. ancient greeks and romans brought hellenism along with them wherever they colonized and beyond; to at least introduce the pantheon to a new populous was a part of claiming those lands as their own, not unlike what european countries would later do with christianity in places they colonized. (even if it wasn't what we'd consider missionary work, the general political goal was the same.) there's thousands of years old statues of venus/aphrodite and temples to mithras found in england to speak to that. in addition, the many germanic, gaelic, and slavic societies, as well as other europeans living outside of the empire or as peripheral subjects, were largely seen as "barbarians" with a "lower" culture by greeks/romans in antiquity, and much of their cultural traditions were lost with conquering, general cultural hegemony, and later conversion to christianity (which rome (or later, the romes) also had a hand in) to the point that most if not all pre-christian accounts of those cultures come from greek/roman sources. though you can say the "power dynamic" flipped now, and the appropriation was definitely nefarious or at the very least not smart, this idea of antiquity as being for the elites or "pan-european" is probably a descendant of those older power structures and social and political orders, even if those labels are artificial and a pretense for elitism and bigotry. hell, the quite literal political dominance of constantinople or rome in europe didn't even start waning too long ago - constantinople only fell in 1453, and the protestant reformation only happened in the 16th century. an inferiority complex to the supposedly more "civilized" cultures of greece or rome (even if that perception is anachronistic and inaccurate) is the sort of thing that gets you to label a time in your own history with no significant input from greek/roman academia as the "dark ages". in that sense, hellenism became as local to other parts of europe, the middle east, north africa, and south asia as odin was to scandinavia. moreover, i don’t think it’s a stretch to refer to greco-roman mythology as pan-european or even beyond that in the same way american culture became world culture. it's just as much in the cultural wheelhouse of those shitty "retelling" authors, and anglos aren't any more likely to fuck it up due to current-day cultural difference than they are to fuck up stories about eostre. of course, that’s no excuse for thinking of a people and their living culture as something dead that merely served as a “stepping stone” for your own, not doing at least a little bit of research into something that may not be familiar to you, or stealing and hoarding historical artifacts that rightfully belong somewhere else. hell, i'm a middle eastern jew and looking at mormon lore makes me want to throw up. maybe a recognition of ancient greeks and romans as not the valiant, civilized heroes english history books make them out to be, even after all these centuries, will help mitigate this?
@@judeconnor-macintyre9874 Much of antiquity, or at least what we consider to be the Classic era, has been unfortunately co-opted by Nazis in the past and neo-nazis today. There are many arguments on why that happened, but it is inevitable that a video about that era will catch their eye.
@@judeconnor-macintyre9874 Woah, don't called the Morons Neo-nazis yet that will diminish the word. Most of them are British Nationalists and Balkaners who got miffed by the Boris Johnson part and some parts Kate kinda skipped over. 1) It that she skimmed and barely mentioned the Eastern Roman Empire, Which to Most of Orthodox Europe is their version of Ancient Greece. Idk maybe in the next video she will address it but you cannot really talk about Philhellenism without having a section dedicated to the legacy of Byzantium and Orthodox Christianity. 2) The British Nationalist and the Balkaners, Generally have a different perspective on the stolen Greek artifact, For the British it's mostly bad takes but for the Balkaners it does have a some grey area. Many of said Greek Artifact weren't found in greece alone but within the Turkey, Bulgaria and much of the Balkans as historically Greece was much larger and a lot of Greeks lived in Anatolia before the Population exchange (Which itself is considered a consensual ethnic Cleansing between Turkey and Greece after the Turkish war of Independence). Who owned these artifacts is already a complications question add in the regional politics in the Balkans + North Macedonia claiming they are Macedonian (They are ethically Slavs), Will certainly ruffle the feathers of some folks in the Balkans (and British Imperialist)
@lettuceman9439 for number 2 it's not just orthodox europe, but orthodox Christians in general (be they from Bosnia, Russia, Syria, Egypt, or somewhere else)
@judeconnor-macintyre9874 Most of the arguments for linking modern and ancient greece together as if they share a continuity are based on the same kind of thing so it attracts those kids of people.
![Gucci Mane & Sexyy Red - You Don't Love Me [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/j7IBqyFKT4c/mqdefault.jpg)
Hearing about how the n@zis idealized ancient sparta is new to me, and is bitterly ironic considering that my grandmother, a spartan woman born and raised in the city of sparta, was left orphaned, malnourished and forever traumatized by the german occupation. She watched her mother drop dead of a heart attack when the tanks rolled into town. She didn't have clavicle bones because of how starved she was as a child. She had to quit school at 13 to get a job. Well into her eighties, I would ask her about her childhood and she would tearfully tell me she didn't want to talk about it. Everyone always wants to be the idealized version of the ancient greeks, but no one ever cares about their real living descendants.
Indeed, we had the privilege to be bombed to smithereens by people with names like Georg or Gregor who could recite Homer in the original.
Even now, I as an immigrant has found myself in the tragicomical situation where the extreme right think tank that wants me the fuck out of here is called "oikos".
@@tinfoil_hat7727 idealizing a militaristic state have always been the the get-go of the Far right.
Even then it's in a faulty misconception, Sparta wasn't all that great and was a tragic comedy of itself in majority of its history being a failing city for upholding a segregationist policy on state building and was a glorified tourist attraction by the Roman Era.
It is in the Byzantine Era and Ottoman Occupation did the Peloponnesian spirit is more admirable than the rambling of ancient Sparta, Even under Last breathe of the Dying Empire did Moria stand to defy the decline as the center of the last Byzantine Renaissance and was it the Greek spirit of the revolutionaries did Greece's orthodox tradition, culture and people stood never devolving into the mockery of the ancient past like Sparta had become during those times.
In relation to greece being "frozen in time" as a Greek, I really felt that. Greece is thought of as a place whose culture has influenced the world yet many times I feel forgotten. Things I consider pivotal to my identity are unknown to most people. When I think of traditional dress, i think foustanella and tsarouchi not of tunics and sandals, and when I think of quintessentially Greek writer Palamas or Papadiamantes comes to mind rather than Euripides or Xenophon. I think of more recent history because I love it but many times I can not search the internet for discussions of it because they don't exist. Sometimes I feel Greek culture is not quite so prevelent as people think.
I really identify with this as a Jewish person. Seems like we exist mostly as symbols for others (either for religious purposes, like with Christians and Muslims, who base their religions on our sacred texts) or as avatars of evil (for people in certain political camps, and conspiracy theorists). But while our foundational myths are just that - myths - we are the genuine descendents of the ancient Jews, and our connection to those ancestors is proven by historical, archaelogical, and even genetic evidence. It's a very strange experience to have our history universalized to prove outsiders' points, and to be written out of our own story. I have felt often like ancient Greek history and myth have been similarly re-appropriated, not in as emotional a way, but in other ways - to serve as the foundational myth of "Western Civilization", where because the Greeks invented democracy and some other ancient Greco-Roman philosophical traditions were likewise imported into the Western European intellectual and political tradition, the western world thinks it owns the entirety of Greekness (without understanding what that even means).
I also have an interesting relationship with Greece as a concept, because the Seleucids were one of the Jews' ancient oppressors (we have a whole holiday about surviving their attempt to genocide us out of existence - that's Chanukah!), but also Greece feels very culturally familiar, much in the way other southern and eastern European cultures often do. I went to Greece on my honeymoon and often felt strangely at home, even though I'd never been there before.
Yeah it’s interesting, people spend a lot less time talking about the ‘Byzantine’ period, or Ottoman occupied Greece despite lasting centuries.
@andersschmich8600 fun fact: because of the "byzantine" period, Greeks technically have spent far longer time being Christian Romans than they have spent being Pagan Hellenes
@@sasi5841 Not if you count Mycanean, which started like 1600 BCE.
I agree. Greece is so much more than its mythology. I find the history more interesting because in the end, those will be the most human stories. Its impact on Byzantine culture is one of the most fascinating things ever; Christian Greece is so overlooked.
I will say, as a Greek myself, I wholeheartedly agree with many of the points you raised in this video. For any of my foreign friends that enjoy works of fiction, particularly the retellings of ancient greek mythos, I hope I can clear something up that I saw people in the comments of the last video get heated about. Many people that saw no issue with the modern onslaught of feminist retellings of these greek stories, would justify their defense of them by citing that ancient greek and roman culture is spread out around the globe and has shaped in some sense other cultures own mythos. Thus, after millennia, an Englishman can proudly proclaim that he shares the same ownership and understanding of ancient greek mythos as I do, since his forefathers all grew up learning about it, using it as inspiration for their works so on and so forth. I want to make it clear that Greeks in particular that don't like the new young adult fictional retellings of ancient greek stories don't feel this way because of some sense of "ownership" over these stories. It's not like the Greek state would suddenly demand to be given compensation whenever one of these stories is retold, or even plagiarized. And I do not think anyone is arguing for that. What most people are angry about is the dishonesty and the dispassionate approach some authors take towards these myths. I'm talking about blatant misrepresentation or ahistorical inaccuracies. I would never ask of an author to justify their choice of using a greek myth or require them to have a bachelor's degree in the classics. But if you truly love the source material, as you say you do, then why do you make no effort to engage with it honestly? Why do you feel you have the right to say YOUR story of Persephone, while never telling your audience that this is not the actual mythological figure? She could be named Vanessa from Sardinia for all I care, and the plot wouldn't change a bit. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say that some authors are just blatantly capitalising on these popular stories and figures to sell their middle of the road stories. And that's what pisses most people off. And I don't mind that the hypothetical Englishman carries within his psyche a very distorted and 100 times reinvented version of Ancient Greece. But it becomes an issue when he tells me that his version is the correct one. People could very much enjoy a very fictionalised and distorted version of the myths, if they understand that that's what they are doing, not that they are actually learning anything about the original. Just say it's fanfic and move on, no need to feel like your story is on par or closely similar to the original.
And I personally do not agree that these fictional stories familiarise a bigger audience with the works. In my humble opinion all they do is perpetuate the distorted Europeanised reinvention of the mythos, one that serves them, not the truthful depiction. If I had to pick between a foreigner learning a butchered story about Agamemnon or not learning about him at all, I would gladly pick the second. I also want to point out that there are many Greeks who also engage dispassionately or incuriously with these stories, even though it is incredibly easy for us to read the source material. So this is not just an us versus them issue, it's a very complicated situation regarding the state of education, arts and information worldwide.
To end my comment, your insight and eloquence is very much appreciated. The quality of this video has already progressed immensely since the last, which is a big surprise since I really liked the last on. I don't think I can even comment on the painting, it looks absolutely stunning and brilliant.
You are a very much needed voice on this platform when radicalisation is so rampant, raising awareness about better understanding and protecting antiquity.
The point of products is to sell them. Authors are as callous as conmen or lawyers when it comes to making money. Expecting them to respect the sources is rather amusing, given how little most modern people even care to their own cultures.
@@lokenontherange I mean, I understand your point, but it would still seem rather sad for an artform, ie writing, to be downgraded as nothing more than another "product". Oh well, it's not like it's the first time people have pointed out the commodification of art, and subsequently of every other part of the human experience.
@@lokenontherange i get your point, but i would be criticizing the publishers for that fist. the average author wants to tell a story and share their art of writing, publishers are the ones profiting off book sales the most.
@@lokenontherange I think it would be an inaccurate conclusion to group all authors together. There are, certainly, many authors who are only focused on making money and won't adapt the source material with passion or care, but there are author out there who are generally passionate about what they do, and research the best they can even if they depend on the money they make. Generalizations of a massive group of artists does nothing to improve the situation.
@@lokenontherange "Authors are as callous as conmen or lawyers when it comes to making money."
I would pretty strongly object to this as a novelist, but maybe not for the reasons you think. I actually think you're partially right. There are authors who really just write pop fiction and want to sell as many copies as possible to make as much money as possible, basing their work off of whatever trend is marketable at any given time. These books generally do not stand the test of time, and will be mostly forgotten in a few years. I think what you have said is true for these authors.
But there are still many underground, independent authors who write for the love of writing, their craft, and the art. For every Colleen Hoover there is a Thomas Ligotti, just like for every Drake there is a Black Thought. Drake makes music that, at least since If You're Reading This, just wave-hops and tries to get a hit to maintain his commercial dominance at the cost of the art (his albums haven't been universally praised since), but Black Thought almost always releases fantastic, conscious rap about black struggle, communities, and his experiences regardless of how many copies it sells. The same is true for writers. Unfortunately this is just a reflection of the society we live in, where art can become a commodity and millions of dollars can be made off of just appealing to the dominant trend, be it music, visual art, film, or, of course, literature.
On the one hand I think it's important to share stories between cultures, but it's even more important to be mindful of how we retell them, because by doing so we introduce our own narrative structures and biases that may distort the intent of the original text. What the modern author wants to say can obscure what the ancient author was trying to say, which is a shame. We as humans have so many ideas to share with each other, stories to tell, and it's that diversity and broad array of topics and perspectives that makes each story valuable. None can be replaced by another.
Kind irked me though that she also skimmed over the legacy of The Byzantine Empire and how it was at odds with Hellenism, which the Greeks and even the Ottomans were called romanoi.
This mixed identity which is Greek, Hellenes or Roman was a prevelant factor in the politicies and current cultural crisis within Greece which the Remnants of Byzantine Culture being seen as Oriental or from the "Turks".
With that profile flag 😂 you surely don't have enough the intellect ...
@@lettuceman94391 y'all don't know what oriental means 🤡
2 Byzantium WAS Greek culturally ethnically and linguistically also nobody in existence view Byzantium as "Turkish" even Turks themselves , the furthest they can do is claim that they're "rum"
@@GalacticR.E.M It must be really hard being scared of colours.
@@GalacticR.E.M Oriental means eastern and a lot of Byzantine Traditions is seen as Eastern by Westerners. Again you fell for the Philhellenist trap, Greece is a crossroads between East and West, A lot Byzantine Art, Music, Cuisine and Architecture was a result of this intermingling.
When you think of a dome building you mostly think Islamic but it was a persia-Byzantine motif before Islam was even in the timeline, Gibbons tried to discredit Byzantium by making it part of the Barbaric East compared to the enlightened West.
Some people in the comments being so quick to draw a line between Modern Greeks and our ancient counterparts ( Fallmerayer called, he wants his rhetoric back) is the reason I find poignant videos like yours very much needed still. It seems non-Greeks don't realise how close a relationship we have with this part of our heritage. As children, we grown on ancient myths and Aesop's fables the way others grow on fairytales, we interact with ancient ruins in our landscape constantly and we literally study the illiad and the odyssey for two years in middle school as a separate subject. There have been books "based in greek mythology" where I could tell a Greek teenager with a mediocre education has a much better grasp of the culture and stories they're supposed to be inspired from than the authors. Our artists seem to be in constant "artistic discussion" with the products of antiquity in all mediums (I can think of three popular songs based on the Odyssey alone on the top of my head). And yet people act like we don't have a claim to our own culture's history and cultural products. It's so jarring to me how they treat our mythology as free for grabs inspiration, with no respect or nods to modern Greeks. And it's especially aggravating to see Western and northern Europeans adopt this mindset, when they often have a patronising, uninformed and frankly orientalist view on modern Greeks, forged in the years of the financial crisis.
Wow, this has it all:
Complex analysis? Check.
Coherent opinion and conclusion? Check.
Citations? Check.
Editing? Smooth, unobtrusive.
Music choice? Smashing.
Shot comp and direction? Just right.
Audio balance and narration style? Top tier.
Amazing painting? Check??? Like, wtf, so good.
Awesome shit.
This channel is an oasis in the desert of superstition and superficial polemics that is RUclips!
I still am a bit baffled why you skimmed over Byzantine Legacy when talking about philhelenism. A large part of the cultural crisis within Greece is that the damage which the romantics had done to neglect and damage the image and study of the Eastern Romans which the Greek Revolutionaries were closer to than ancient Athens and Sparta as the Orthodox Church preserved much of it.
Constantinople itself was a center of Learning which rivalled Bagdad as the Renaissance was officially kick-started by the fall of Constantinople leading to many Greek scholars (And Venice stealing everything not nailed to the ground during the 4th crusade and the fall itself) fleeing to Italy and bringing the Renaissance of the 14th Century in full Force.
Not really demanding anything since yes I am biased but their is a another point which must be address regarding what Philhellenism and modern pop History regarding ancient Greece had done to the Legacy of the Eastern Romans, One of the bad consequences as the Assignment of Byzantine Culture as "Eastern" or "From the Turks" made to disregard the history, Culture and achievements of the Eastern Roman Empire in the Western World as well as the Plundering of Byzantine Artifacts which is not noticed due to the sole focus on Ancient Greece
A good video that discusses who people view freek culture today is farya faraji's "why greek music sounds eastern and why that's a dumb question". It always bothered me how people seemed to separate ancient greek culture from greek people of today, and this video helped to illuminate rhe issue for me.
Anyway, great work!! Both the video and painting are amazing
I think it's so interesting, what you said about reading myths from your own territory. When I read Maya myths, there was something so oddly and beautifully familiar about certain imagery: mountains and vegetation and birds shaking the rain off their wings. Somehow, that seemed so much closer to what I knew than mount Pelion or Ithaca. Same with Aztec mythology, especially now that I moved to Mexico. Lots of cacti? Yeah, there's one just outside my house.
maybe being from Phoenix is why I've connected so much with the history and mythology of the Mexica despite being very much of irish and german descent. It at least takes place in a *place* very vivid in my mind so I can feel connected to it
I agree, except it works that way for me with certain Chinese mythology. It just feels familiar.
As someone who grew up in Greece, I find your perceptions of Greek culture very intriguing and interesting.
Pity people don't talk about the influence of Greek stories on western music specifically on the art form of opera. Opera was invented precisely in Renaissance Florence in an attempt by Italian humanists and musicians to revive and actually perform the ancient Greek plays. Someone noticed that there was a chorus in each play so came to the conclusion that those plays were sung right through so serendipedously invented the art form of opera. The early operas were almost invariably based on the Greek legends especially the legend of Orpheus and Eurydice which was an absolute favorite with composers as it involved a musician Orpheus who could charm even wild animals with his music - the first substantial opera "Orfeo" by the Venetian Monteverdi was based on this myth but the story was taken up by many composers the most noteworthy Gluck in the mid eighteenth century with his exquisite take on the story which caused the great philosopher Rousseau , after he attended a performance, to exclaim that the music was so perfect in this work that no more music should ever be composed as it would never reach the level of perfection reached in this score.Gluck went on to compose equally beguiling masterpieces like the myth of Alceste the bereaved lady who offered herself to Death in exchange for her husband and Gluck also did the Paris and Helen story as well as two masterpieces on the Iphigenia legends. One hundred years later French composer Offenbach did a spoof on the Orpheus legend as well as on the Helen myth and instead of the blessed spirits in Elysium dancing to serene and stately minuets he has them doing the Can Can - a dance which of course was recently performed at the Paris Olympics.During the opening ceremony of the Athens Olympic there was a tribute tableaux to famed Greek opera singer Maria Callas - a singer who not only sang numerous roles involving Greek heroines like Medea but she also did a film of the original Euripides play.
As an English person I think the reason that Greek Myth has the reputation and the appeal that it does, and part of the reason we take the stories of another place as our own as you point out, is that we have so little true mythology of our own to point to.
Tolkien was an avid fan of myth and legend obviously and said that one of the worst effects of the Norman Conquest was the destruction of so much Anglo-Saxon culture and the final remnants of our pre-christian roots were largely demolished after that. Because of that, we gravitate towards the mythology of other places because it's a type of story we have largely lost.
Also, myths as a story format are deeply enjoyable. And if you don't have a mythology of your own, then you seek out those of different cultures to experience theirs. It's not always done ethically, the British museum as you mentioned is questionable. But I'm also an English teacher and the joy of discovery that students have in reading and discussing Greek myths are honestly some of the best experiences you see in a classroom. It would be brilliant if they had a mythology or an epic of their own to study but sadly they don't exist in the same way as Greek myth does. The closest thing is Beowulf and even then the setting is outside of England so you don't get the tie to the land like you mentioned with your own nations local myths.
This isn't to excuse our checkered past when it comes to our relationship with Ancient Greek culture, we are definitely on shakey ground there, but just thought the added context might be interesting.
I kind of second this.
Much of Germanic and Celtic (and other European) culture is inevitably lost, because it never had the chance to speak for itself. Many of those cultures were (primarily) oral, so we got little bits of it filtered through a Greek and Roman lense first, then a Christian one later. Not even talking about so much that didn't survive at all.
But I think it also has also to do with the association of myths. Greece and Rome were both immensely influential in Europe and powerful. It's always appealing for people to see themselves in the tradition of empires (which medieval people already did, too)
I also agree with this. Greek mythology and how it overshadows some other cultures is an issue that needs to be regarded, but the myths of Greece really do teach good lessons. I like that your comment is a justification, not an excuse.
It's a shame we don't focus on our own ancient stories.I'm reading Beowulf right now and it's hard to describe the feeling of it, but I do genuinely emotionally connect with it as something from our ancient past.
How much of it was lost vs how much was it genocided out? :(
I think, in the mind of the average anglo/american/even european, Ancient Greece has nothing to do with modern Greece. The appropriation, for the lack of a better word, of Ancient Greece is essentially complete, whereby an author may feel responsibility in correctly and respectfully reproducing, say, Japanese culture, but feels no such responsibility towards Greece, because Ancient Greece has ceased to be Greek heritage, it is now everyone's heritage. And thus, the average author can simply present their own story, which has little to do with Ancient Greece, as a Greek retelling without feeling like they owe any due to the modern descendants of the same people they capitalize on. The same issue can be seen with Egypt, whereby Ancient Egypt and modern Egypt are barely seen as the same civilizations. In both cases, I would argue, the issue is orientalism to an extent. Greeks are simply seen as too eastern, too Balkan, too Christian, too Byzantine, even too ottoman. Egyptians are seen as too arab. It is up to the westernman to come pick up the pieces of their history and culture, and consequently, save Ancient Greece and Egypt from the clutches of these strangers.
Wow I have never thought of the Greeks' perspective on the issue of cultural appropriation. Even worse they question your identity! There should be a word for this, it is easier to talk about the issue if it has a name.
@@mishasa2751it’s a western tradition that is very old. Even today westerners unironically believe that Ancient Greece is their history, and anything that deviates from their delusion (ie the real Greece) is Turkish
Ironic because Byzantium and modern Greece is more reflective of the real situation even in classical times more than any German will ever be. Byzantium is actually the sole reason Germanics even know what Ancient Greece is.
Another fantastic essay and I would absolutely LOVE to hear you talk more about how the roman empire after the fall of rome was largely forgotten by the west, even though it continued to exist for another thousand years based in constantinople. It's incredible how little people care about the byzantines since there's a crazy historical domino effect from Empress Irene of Athens to literally all of world history after that. The only reason Charlemagne was crowned emperor of the romans was because the pope didn't believe a woman could be emperor, so they saw themselves as restoring the empire that was lost (but again, wasn't lost! was still existing, right there, extremely wealthy and powerful!). Then western europe decides to engage in the crusades to "restore" christendom, which for some reason involved sacking constantinople, the seat of the ecumenical patriarchate, which left the empire vulnerable to ottoman attack, the ottomans took over and cut off western european access to the silk road and asian trade, so they started looking for sea routes to china & india, cue columbus, all of european imperialism and all the effects we still have today. ALL because charlie and leo didn't think irene counted. you would think that would be important to learn in history class, but alas, it doesn't suit the narrative of western exceptionalism.
as a greek person its been veryyy interesting reading these comments
I am interested in your persepective because it is mostly non-Greek people making counter-arguments. I am Muslim but very into Greek mythology and culture as I think it is very rich in culture, history and meaning. From my perspective, because modern day Greek is perceived to have proximity to 'Whiteness' people are more comfortable appropriating and even imposing on its mythology.
You are so incredibly intelligent, I love listening to your thoughts on these subjects. I find your videos so inspiring, especially as a fan of Greek Myth. It's so easy to view it as something that belongs to everyone with all these retellings, but there is a responsibility that comes with it that a bunch of these authors don't seem to care about or acknowledge! It's eye opening for me, really.
Well done, just as your last video!!! Can't wait to see what else you do ☺️💗
I LOVE this style of video: painting with a voiceover in the background. Please keep up the great work, you’ve quickly become one of my favorite creators.
You have a number of really nuanced and deep thoughts on this that echo problems I've had with "feminist" retellings (I do firmly think that's been overused as a label) as a marketable trend. I could echo a lot of these critiques with how fairy tales are retold, specifically always as a subversion, as though we have to fix what was there without ever questioning if it needed fixing, and meanwhile overlooking everything else. When you mentioned how many of these retellings skirt around slavery, I thought about how every. single. fairy tale retelling is about gender, namely fixing gender and romance to be more appealing to our 21st century lens of dating and womanhood. This is really obvious in Disney live-action remakes but it's just the overwhelming trend, such that "not your typical fairytale" is the most typical fairytale marketing thing and has been since before I was born. Shrek started the trend but you already saw it in Ever After (which I love, for the record) or even Rocky and Bullwinkle's Fractured Fairy Tales.
Our Cinderella has to date the prince for a while and have career aspirations, because feminism TM, but she won't ever be aromantic asexual and uninterested in marrying. She needs to save herself (she's not a passive helpless victim!!!- I hate this, it's such victim blaming) but in the retelling we almost always remove her godmother/reincarnated animal mother character, the person who the presumed child audience of the original tales *should* look to for help, and the character whose love and support keeps the heroine safe and grounded during the abuse and gives her the means to escape. It's always about fixing the romance without a passing glance at the mother-daughter relationship. Meanwhile we will almost never address the following topics because they are icky and corporate doesn't like it: race, disability, class, queerness, transness, religion etc. Despite the fact that there is plenty to discuss and critique about these subjects and how they show up in European fairy tales.
Shoutout to Ever After and Princess Arete for being mostly about class (with gender as an added element) and just being really good movies.
Another terrific video that feels like it's plucking things straight from my own recent hyperfixations and organizing them way better than I could. I wanna add my two cents to something mentioned in the conclusion: While the old "learn history so as to not repeat it" line is a bit of a cliche and probably not the true purpose to studying history or the arts, as an International Relations major, the classics popped up a ton. The Melian dialogue is still relevant as the forerunner of realism. There's a phrase called "the Thucydides trap" which refers to Thucydides's theory that war between Athens and Sparta was essentially inevitable, as when one great power rises in the same region in another, (in his case, Sparta to Athens) the only two options for the latter are to accept losing hegemony or fight for it. (And some realist scholars apply this ominously to China-USA)
undergraduate classicist with a small correction here! 🤓☝the etymology of the word "classicism" is not from the latin clamo, but rather from the latin word classicus, which originally meant to belong to the navel fleet (e.g miles classicus, a naval soldier/marine) or belonging to the highest class of the citizenry, classicus went on to be used to refer to the "highest ranking" latin literature (generally works from the 1st century BCE and CE) by later latin speakers.
Your essay was so interesting, so layered with meaning and discovery that I had to watch it twice and will likely continue to come back to it periodically. Love your work. And being able to watch you paint at the same time - how does it get better than that!
I really appreciate the points you make about why we actually study history, how limited comparisons to modern events can actually be, and just how patronizing we often are about Ye Olde Stupid Times, unless perhaps they have a few token cool things we can admire in a shallow way.
I see this a lot with revisions to the public image of one historical culture or another (some of which are very needed) with implicit value judgements. “They made great architecture, they had writing, they had great medicine and waterworks” with the unstated judgment that other people who didn’t have those things were weak and stupid. Obviously this thinking values writing over oral traditions, but it also often goes beyond admiring a cool thing to stating outright that lacking the cool thing makes you backwards, and I’m just not okay with that. Medieval Europe gets hit with this treatment compared to Early Modern Europe and concurrent Asia and Africa, which I feel is unfair because you can find those cultures cool without making judgements that incidentally show just how little you value modern countries where lots of people lack access to clean water, medicine etc.
Does lacking access to clean water or formal education make you stupid and backwards? Does high infant mortality make you callous, or do you just gain a different perspective on death? There’s all kinds of reasons a culture might not have built monumental architecture, from political organization to ongoing wars to environment and resources to just not valuing that kind of thing. I wish more people would set aside historical cultures as action figures with accessories and playsets to make memes out of (think everything relating to Warring States Japan). I just want to treat them as people living their lives in worlds very different but not fully alien to ours.
I think you just perfectly captured something I've never been able to say quite right. I don't have much to add besides that this was such a well said and thoughtful comment, and that I think everyone needs to hear the line, 'Does high infant mortality make you callous, or do you just gain a different perspective on death?'. Your comment resonates with me so much, you managed to add another important layer to this equally as amazing video.
This video is so beautiful and immaculate, I'm amazed. I have to admit, to my shame, that after watching your last video about Greek myth retellings, I very much felt the very sentiment you rebut in this video; the idea that as 'Westerners', we have some sort of equal claim to classic works and ideas as actual Greek people. This video was so enlightening - it never occurred to me just how much of what I believed (as an Australian) to be our collective, Western cultural heritage is actually elitist historical revisionism, or how exactly we came to view Greek and Roman history as belonging to the entirety of Europe (and its former colonies). Brava!
I wouldnt Put too much thought to IT since its Not Like the greeks we're that gatekeeping about their culture spread IT far into sicily north africa over Persia nearly into India, Heck a greek State Had Interactions with China .
Just found your channel and was amazed that you only have 2 videos with the level of quality that they have! I'm in love the cozy vibes!
Man this video is difficult to watch, because I keep having to consciously shift my focus to the fascinating historiography and away from the ***phenomenal*** painting.
I did my whole senior thesis on the Orphic mysteries and the context in which they existed because I’ve loved mythology of all kinds but Hades introduced me to the Orphic mysteries, and I think the way we adopt mythology into the modern age is important because keeping at least some form of those stories alive is intrinsic to making people care about history in general. However, taking these stories out of the context in which the existed is where we fall short in our whole understanding of history and the tales of ancient times. It’s a tough situation to be in…
I absolutely love Mary Renault, I'm so glad you mentioned her. I read Fire From Heaven and The Persian Boy as a young teen, and they inspired me to study Greek, Latin and Classical History in later life. It's very strange, how a book can make such an impression that it changes your life.
Interesting take. May I ask, if one can expect more videos in the future relating to antiquity? Your (self?)portrait is very beautiful. As a German obsessed with antiquity and the German romantics, I would like to add that, though Humboldt was responsible for the large scale implementation of Ancient Greek and Latin studies in German higher education and the formation of a German learning canon (Bildungsideal), the German obsession with Greek art, sculpture and architecture began with the writings of Johann Joachim Winckelmann, who is considered to be among the first modern archaelogists because of his systematizing approach to Greek and Roman sculpture, which was based on stylistic analysis. He was the first prominent figure favouring the Greeks against the Romans, which also had political connotations (Winckelmann was a proponnent of democracy; Rome was instrumentalised by the French Ancién Regime). I'm always baffled at, how elitist the study of classical languages is considered to be in the UK, because in Germany the study of Latin is nothing special and offered in the majority of schools. Only Greek is seen as something rare and is usually only offered in tradional schools of humanistic learning (what we call humanistisches Gymnasium). Keep up the input. You would be a great addition to the videos The Lady of the Library is producing.
That’s fascinating - thank you so much for sharing! Honestly wish I'd done more of a deep dive into German philhellenism in this video. I’m hoping to make more videos in the future, though this is probably the last vid I'll make on Greek myth adaptations (I think I've said all I have to say at this point!)
I'm so glad you uploaded again! I've been thinking about your last video since i saw it. It was super well thought out and I'm glad that you're using this video to expand on some of those ideas.
Ok, so I just want to preface this by saying I haven’t watched this video (yet!), but I find some of the points brought up in the comments interesting to discuss. While I agree that cultural mindfulness is integral to appropriately translating (and adapting) older works, I also want to question what makes an ancient Greek. Certainly a modern day Greek person will have many connections to the ancient Greek language and, to an extent, the culture, but in fact the two concepts of ancient and modern Greekness seem entirely separate to me. Greek culture has gone far beyond its ancient form; if you asked me to name a Greek poet I would not think of Homer, I would think of Cavafy. A similar point is better demonstrated by an actual Greek person in the comments. Adding onto that, ancient Greece doesn’t only apply to modern day Greece. For example, the island my family is from in Croatia was historically part of ancient Greece. Similar things can be said for much of the Mediterranean; does this mythology belong to me then? I’m not so sure. While Greek culture in its own right deserves respect and representation, I do think that ancient Greek mythology has surpassed cultural borders. The same could be said for Abrahamic religion, which no longer just belongs to Jewish people (obviously). Of course it is important to stay culturally conscious, but given the nature of ancient Greece (a collection of poleis, some more or less colonial, pivotal to the later founding of the Roman Empire, etc.) I do think no one can really claim ownership in the traditional sense anymore.
Edit: I also want to add that some of the issues I see in the world of classics and Greek mythology retellings is the “fandomisation” of it. It can’t be helped, given the popularity of so many Greek myth-inspired works (Percy Jackson, Lore Olympus, Hadestown, Epic, etc.), but it results in a very watered down version of the story and culture. Honestly if you ask me, ancient Greece needs to stop being treated like a monolith. The poleis were very unique and diverse.
Would you question modern Chinese people's ownership of their ancient culture in a similar way?
Of course our modern culture is different. It is also similar in ways hard to see for an outsider.
@@yllejord I never said there aren’t similarities though. I may not have phrased my point clearly, because all I’m saying is that modern day Greece alone can not be considered the sole representative of ancient Greece. You bring up ancient China, so I’ll try to use it as a comparison. Depending on what you count as “ancient”, both modern day Turkestan and Tibet were parts of ancient China, and yet they have their own unique traditions, cultures, religions, etc. Nowhere am I discounting their shared ancient history or even (somewhat) similar cultures, but the same way *my* island in Croatia was part of ancient Greece, and then the Roman Empire, etc. etc., I am arguing that you can’t treat ancient Greece like a monolith. Ancient Greece surpassed what its modern borders have and arguably, other than being Mediterranean, countries like Croatia, Macedonia, Turkey, etc. are *not* similar to Greece, and yet historically we have as much claim to the poleis as any other. And who knows, because the poleis were so different, certain areas in the rest of the Mediterranean may be more culturally similar to that specific ancient Greek polis than, say, Athens or the rest of “modern” Greece (but this is a speculation on my part).
I know this is a particularly contentious issue but even Turks/Turkey could lay claim to ancient Greek culture and history - there’s Turks in Cyprus, Troy is in Turkey, and there’s an abundance of ancient Greek archaeology in the area. I’m not discounting any sort of cultural connections because I know they exist, but what my argument is trying to articulate is that all these other countries can be argued to also “own” the collective ancient mythology/history. That is what I mean by no one can claim ownership in the traditional sense. Obviously I’m more than happy to see Greece celebrate its ancient past, and Athens will always remain the unofficial “capital” of the ancient Greek world in my eyes. Basically my initial comment was trying to say that I don’t think one single modern country can claim the entire history/culture; it’d be akin to a modern Turk claiming that Ottoman culture is all theirs, when in fact a lot of Ottoman culture was absorbed from the places it colonised (including Greece).
The reason I say all this is not to discount your ancient history as being yours, it absolutely is, but I’m also wary of these kinds of claims because as an archaeology student I’ve seen it be used to stoke various sentiments where the history is off to some degree. What I wish was that more energy was put into uplifting modern Greek culture, some of which is connected to the ancients and some of which isn’t. I think this would also solve a lot of cultural problems in Greece (e.g. if the British had any sort of respect for Greece’s *modern* history, they’d understand why their hold on the Parthenon marbles can be considered an act of colonialism). Sorry if this is messy but those were the points I was trying to make. Have a good day 🙏🏼
@@DinaHayek-u7y thank you for this detailed response.
My reaction was to this: "but in fact the two concepts of ancient and modern Greekness seem entirely separate to me."
I brought up China as an example for precisely the reasons you point out. Not a monolith with a broad influence.
At this point I would like to make perfectly clear that I'm not coming from a nationalist's point of view, in fact I detest nationalism.
The cultural continuity is a matter of neither DNA or geography, but of continued lived experience.
There's a whole 2000 years separating ancient and modern Greece and if you ask a random person what the Greeks were up to during this time, I don't think they would know. And they're not obliged to know either.
We just went on being Greeks, as Romans, Venetians, Franks and Turks came and went. But this knowledge gap can very easily be filled with narratives like Fallmerayer's (his being the extreme end of the spectrum).
My question is, how is the partaking of ancient greek heritage and a claim to it experienced by non-Greeks, who all have their own distinct cultures?
Like, what form does it take in one's everyday life?
@@yllejord Ah, I see - looking back on it I phrased that initial sentence poorly. My intention was less to undermine clear cultural connections between ancient and modern Greece and more to emphasise the importance (and better historical understanding) of the latter entity, but I understand why it came off differently.
I agree with your comment on the idea of a continued lived experience over geography and DNA. When I think of specifically ancient Greek heritage, I think of the little fragments we have remaining of ancient Greece. That is to say, I think of the fragmented mythology, the pottery (some of which we’ve yet to make sense of, like on Keros), the surviving and renowned poets and philosophers like Homer, Sappho, Plato, etc. All very culturally significant but in fact very small glimpses into ancient Greek life, as you said. Even so, from my understanding they are studied with great care in Greece today, and also in many of the Balkan countries. The thing is, pottery and more broadly a variety of small and large ancient Greek material culture can be found all over the Mediterranean. Croatia is actually quite minuscule comparatively to, say, Turkey, but even so it is significant to us and our cultural + archaeological scene. From my personal experience I would say that the two identities sort of coexist. No Croatian considers themselves Greek or Italian, though some Italians would perhaps like Dalmatians to think otherwise. We are, by nature, a mixed people at the crossroads of various empires for our entire history, and what that has formed is a unique Croatian culture. We have Slavic, Ottoman, Germanic, and even ancient Greek and Roman cultural heritage which is predominantly found in Dalmatia. We are not Greeks because our language differs and we’ve had different experiences in the larger span of history. But at the same time we consider this archaeology “ours” - in the sense that we know both ancient Greeks and Romans were on our land, and that although not the exact same, much of Balkan culture is largely similar for these sorts of ethnographic reasons. We study this history, as well as the mythology in more detail, but how relevant it is will depend on the Croat and region. But, at least within my family, we do know that was “us”, or at the very least it’s shaped our culture and interaction with history. But we are unique because somewhere along the line, we split. Sorry if this is extremely convoluted, but it was a good question and I wanted to address the sort of paradox of being both “of” and not of that ancient Greece. In short, ancient Greece and Rome are both significant to us because they make up our larger cultural scene (especially in the realm of archaeology). Moreover, we recognise a decent amount of similarities between our cultures that may be either geographical or historical, or both. We are not ancient Greek, but ancient Greeks have contributed to us in a significant way. At least that’s how the people I’ve surrounded myself with see it.
The main reason I pointed this out initially is because I’m wary of broad statements like “only modern Greeks can truly understand/work with/make sense of ancient Greece”. I know the video does not state this at all but it’s an argument I’ve seen before, sometimes to do with cultural appropriation (which is a valid concern) but also sometimes to push agendas like North Macedonians actually just being Greeks, etc etc. Even though literally speaking, I as a Croat have a better chance of conversing with a Macedonian than a Greek person. No one’s denying a possible ethnic connection, and that’s not a reason to strip them of their evident ancient history, but so many things have happened in between to make them not Greek. I suppose that’s why I feel iffy about equating ancient and modern Greece. Modern Greece is surely most similar to what we have of ancient Greece, but that shouldn’t discount the history of other modern nations who have since become their own unique cultures. I always like to think of modern nations as a mosaic of sorts, with each part being taken into account. I think something that may play a part as well is that Greece was exempt from the so-called Yugoslav experience, which was bound to prioritise the Communist Revolution over a fragmentary history which, to the anti-nationalist’s eyes is of little importance (not to say claiming to be ancient Greek is inherently nationalist, but they wanted nothing to do with these kinds of identities). So it’s a slippery slope, but in cultural discussions I prefer to look at empirical evidence. Are we Greek? No (or maybe some are ethnically, who knows, but we don’t call ourselves Greek and that’s what matters). Do we have archaeology of ancient Greece on our land? Yes, for sure, and it contributes to our culture. So to me that makes us valid “inheritors”, so to speak. It’s not like we stole this culture from the Greeks, rather they came here for whatever reason and made their own settlements.
This was ridiculously long and a little nonsensical, but I hope that answers your question well enough. Thank you for your response!
While I see where you're coming from there is the question of: Is this your call to make? And I am going to use the term 'you' generally here. You mentioned how Ancient Greek culture has surpassed borders therefore no one claim ownership, I disagree. While I do not think the authority is strictly within the borders of modern Greece but with the people who it directly impacted the most, those who preserved it, and those who are carrying it on. Hellenism is not completely dead. Another example would be Egypt, it is a majority Muslim nation now but they very much preserved a lot of its ancient history, and have ancestral connection to those who created it, herefore they have authority over it. You mentioned Abrahamic religions and while it may not just belong to Jewish people, it isn't a free for all either. People of either three religions seldom allow outsiders to impose on our doctrine and people who do are often met with backlash. But the comparison between Abrahamic religions and Hellenism is not a fair one either.
As a person from a country who has been the victim of European colonialism and appropriation, I think 'cultures should be shared' is a cop out for people to impose somewhere they doesn't belong. When in reality, a shared culture means you are guest to the culture that is being shared with you.
Like what you say for rome, it's interesting that we start talking a lot less about ancient greek civilization once it becomes more implanted in asia and africa (hellenistic world), even though that's the time greek culture was the most influential in history
Very true. The general knowledge and study of Greek history seems to peter out after Alexander dies and the fascinating cultural synthesis between local cultures in Egypt and Mesopotamia.
This was so incredibly well done, and got me thinking about Greek mythology in a totally new way. Keep up the good work!!
A one hour video of Kate Alexandra. Looks like this day is gonna be great after all.
I could listen to you talk for hours! This is fascinating, thank you so much!
This doesn't stop at books, it encomapsses Greek Music, religions, food and language.
So called "Hellenism" (refered to by Greek practitioners as Olympianism) as a neo-paganism has literally taken the name used to describe Greek Identity, and taken it as it's own.
I don't think it helps that a lot of the most prominent voices in neo-paganism consistently spread misinformation and interchange labels whenever they feel like it.
YES! I've been looking forward to this since you mentioned making a longer vid in your last upload! You have got such a good eye for video essays, thank you for uploading!
Not related to this video topic but I LOVE your voice. I don't love my recording voice, it sounds so childish which also kept me from making video essay (I wish to make on my favourite books). That's why I'm so envious of people who have nice voices. You deserve millions of views on your video essays :)
do the essay anyway! there's never enough of those (and I'm sure your voice js lovely anyway, you are just not used to it)
For someone who has been trying hard to mirror, although not copy history and myth in their own writing. This sort of topic has always been in my head in general, and as someone with a historical background, I always put the history first when thinking about this sort of topic. Yet at the same time I feel this is one of the most important parts when I am trying to world build. These aren't just stories, these are people, this is what makes us who we are.
So when it comes to Greece, and other such cultures, that even though I have knowledge of and familiarity. Still need to think about it, and I am glad to at least some extent that my goal isn't to retold. Instead look at them and wonder, giving a take take in a new world. Giving me the chance to expose new people to how people interrupt stories, people and civilization, and not really covered has it is its own rabbit hole. The idea of calling themselves Greek or Romans is one thing that always comes to mind. The amount of people claiming to be Roman, from the Holy Roman Empire, the Ottoman, the Sultanate of Rûm, the Russian Empire, the United States, France, the Seljuk Empire, and so many more. As you stated in your video, the Greeks had the same problem. It is interesting, and something that I want to try to dip my toes into. If only to show people that haven't experience it, the chance to take a peak inside the craziness which is the historical community, and the nonsense we talk about.
Back to the idea of myths and retelling. I, must admit, the deep dive into this topic, has always made me think. No matter what we do there is no way we can escape the bias, and the millennia of people doing the same thing. Leaving us where we are today. Trying to consume this everything bagel that has been place on our table to try to eat, knowing full well that some thing we don't like, and some thing that we might have allergies too. It a big mess, that I haven't figured out the answer to, and I doubt anyone else had the chance to figure out either. Looking back in history and trying to figure out what it all means, knowing full well that it is beyond any understanding that we can pull off today. All we can do is hope we at least get something right, and have that same hope shared with everyone else.
Edit: Honestly, I always question why I care about history, and why does history matter. It is something that I always seem to find easier with the former and the later I always end up changing my mind on. I care because those are untold stories, it is said 117,000,000,000 humans have lived on this planet, and it is said that only 129,864,880 unique book exist today. That is only a fraction of a fraction of the number of stories that could be told, not to mention all the ones we have lost to time. Now for the later question, the why it matters? I don't know, if we forget our entire history not counting the last few hundred years today, will it really matter? I mean, technically that already happened. With so much of the details lost to us, I find it hard to truly wrap my brain around how much we already lost. Not to mention you can only trace back you family a few hundred years, and there are family trees that can go back to the 700s if I remember correctly. Compared to the billions of years life existed on this one single planet, that is nothing. It is just crazy to think, and I can't truly wrap my head around it sometimes.
I wanted to touch on the excerpt you read about Fallmerayer around 27:10 : Fallmerayer is a strange figure, having first written a history of the medieval Byzantine Empire of Trebizond, expressing admiration for the Greeks therein. Only when he wrote about the history of the Peloponnese did he put forward this theory that all Greeks were Slavs. I think it should also be mentioned that it was considered a strange theory even back then, with many historians coming out against it. Moreover, there's an argument that the entire theory was political in nature - Fallmerayer worked for the King of Bavaria, whose son became King of Greece around the time Fallmerayer put out this theory - in fact, Fallmerayer ended up fired from his university job because of this.
17:45 Just coming at it from the angle of a half Greek Cypriot, but I always find the 'America is literally Rome' argument to be very tired and more than anything based on US exceptionalism.
Oh? So out of all the other countries in the world its America which is like Rome and it's modern mirror/successor? What about France? I mean, they speed ran Rome's systems of government from 1789 to 1815 (kingdom, Republic, dictatorship/consulate, empire) but you don't hear them being called 'the new Rome' to the same extent as America.
Well, look at the timeline there, for one.
The last segment spoke to me on a personal level, lovely video, immediately subscribed
Yay another video. Just found your channel yesterday but I'm very intrigued by your perceptions and opinions
this is incredibly interesting wow! loved watching this as someone that usually enjoys retellings, and where they sit in the modern day.
Phenomenal quality content. Soothing voice, beautifully narrated, meticulously researched - the time flew by. This channel deserves a big reach
As a medievalist, I understand your avoidance of getting too far into the 'medieval' attitude to Greece, Rome and the classics. Not least because the time period is over 1000 years, my fav Holy Roman Empire, and much of their view of many Greek classics is actually formed by Arab scholars and their analyses. And the other aspects they take on are so removed from our interests it seems strange, perhaps with the exception of governance.
But I do love your weaving of fiction and narrative in with the analysis as examples and argumentation. It makes for a great explanation of 'why history.'
The painting is gorgeous ❤
Wow! Another great video of yours!
I had to take three days to finish this video just so I can consume every information and not missing anything. You've explained and shown each aspect very beautifully and I can inly agree with your thoughts.
Excellent video!
Interestingly, Lord Elgin’s son, the next Lord Elgin, continued his father’s imperialist legacy and went on giving the very same treatment that he father did to the Parthenon to the Old Summer Palace in China during the Opium Wars.
Wow I was thinking about your last video and checked my recommendation and saw this, glad you are keeping up the good work
Don’t have much more to add but I hope this boosts you in the algorithm
I loved to listen to your viewpoints while watching you create that marvelous painting. I can also fully relate to your worries about the perception and education opportunities of ancient history and culture. My uni had to protect its ancient faculties- especially the Egyptology faculty that I graduated - more than once in the past too. It was spared - but for how long, nobody knows.
OH NO THERE ARE ONLY TWO VIDEOS? I want to live in your head and learn everything!
This video is amazing! The depth in which you talk about everything is really intriguing and I love how well structured the video is! My audhd brain does want me to note tho, that you pronounced renaissance a little weird.. and that kinda made me shiver..
Thank you for yet another video for me to bite into. I feel very passionately about this topic.
Always a nice day when Kate uploads an analysis
The painting is just gorgeous, I could watch you paint all day
Mary Renault's 'the king must die' was the first time I read a retelling that really connected myth to (theories about) ancient traditions and places that are still here.
I find the question of the "ownership" (for lack of a better word) of greek myths complex. I live in the Netherlands, and some of our oldest cities, including the one where I live, started as roman castellums. There are roman ruins less then a mile of my house. Its also a realtively well perserved literary tradition with a lot of first hand sources).To me it is not suprising that people feel connected with greek and roman history, i just think its sad when it loses all its specificity of time and place. I think in a way in for example Homers work (wich was set a few hunders years before it was written down, and does not really bother to really distinguish between different cultures) is relatively vulnerable for being stripped of their context. I agree that we should be carefull and conscious of this when we publish retellings.
The only modern retelling I read was Circe and I was thoroughly unimpressed. Far from being a feminist take, the words "internalised misogyny: a novel" kept echoing in my head as I was reading.
It is aggravating, how our ancient cultural has been appropriated by western Europeans to be used for their white supremacy purposes. Taking it out of its context, placing it on a pedestal, naming it the cradle of civilisation and then adopting it as their own heritage.
Ours is and always has been just another chunk swimming around in the rich Mediterranean culture soup.
It is now widely accepted that cultural appropriation is a bad thing, and correctly so. It just baffles me how casually ancient Greek culture is excluded from this discourse.
Imagine a wave of ancient Chinese or ancient Indian myth retellings by western authors.
It would be nice if people who wanted to make a career out of it had at least the feeling that this is someone else's heritage they're making their money out of.
And it would be nice if they wanted to give back somehow, like trying to find Greek cover artists or research advisors, promoting charities active in Greece, I don't know, they're the creatives I'm sure they can find a way.
Listening to this as I do my Greek homework. So interesting & well thought out.
This is so well done. I hope you make more videos in the future.
When it's a retelling we need to be clear that it's a retelling. I hear a lot of people treating Ovid as canon, and he was retelling Greek myth in his time for his audience, like modern authors do for modern audiences
This seems like a well thought out video, I'll watch it when I have the time
(I see EPIC: The Musical got a tiny cameo!)
Will you ever do some painting tutorials? I am trying to get better at acrylic and oil painting but it's a struggled.
genuinely only channel on RUclips where I leave with something. a new knowledge, information, story.. this is pure gold and amazing
If you ever decide to turn your video essays into a podcast on Spotify I will 100% listen to it
Loved your last vid, really excited to watch this one too!
As a person about read classics and history at degree level, who discovered a love of the subject through 'feminist retellings of Greek mythology', I found this video essay amazing. I often look at those books with a fondness, they birthed my love for antiquity, but they are not impervious to critique. I found your comments on the historical inaccessibility and misuse of classics familiar but i never thought how prevalent it still is in the present day. I hope to start my classics degree with a new moral perspective, inspired by this essay. Thank you so much!
Ps. your portrait was beautiful! :)
Yes! Yes! F ucking Yes! She's the GOAT 🐐!! She finally uploaded!!!!
I really needed this kind of video❤thank you ❤
Such an interesting perspective, 3:19 - I read The Secret History as a mock of students like Henry, Francis, and others. I thought it did critique how exclusionary academia is, to the point that the main character had to create a facade to “fit in”
as a classics and art student, i’ll say that i think the two subjects work together fantastically but it was extremely difficult to find a good list of colleges that have good opportunities in both
I've been thinking about the "the past is a different country" quote recently and wondering if it even works in the modern day, when we have the Internet and the differences between countries are being somewhat flattened. When I travel, I can usually expect to find English-speaking locals, my customs as an American are known and accepted/tolerated, and my phone and modern technology remain with me. But the distant past is almost on another level of difference. I offhandedly mentioned to my students that in ancient Rome, girl children often didn't have first names, but rather numbers, so a Claudius would have daughters called Claudia Prima, Secunda, Tertia, etc. And my students looked HORRIFIED at this, since today a personal name means so much. Thinking about infant exposure, slavery, the universality of the Roman religion, and the lack of technology that is so everyday to us makes the world of ancient Rome almost impossible to conceptualize. (I think this is part of why many myth retellings do not hit for me, and I'll admit your other video has been tempting me to write a novel grounded in the realism of everyday life and religious practice in ancient Rome to correct for that...)
also, this is a video essay for the ages! Gonna send this to all my classics friends. It's also reaffirming my feeling that I should expand my study of Latin (my particular classics niche) beyond the boundaries of the Roman Republic and Empire - thankfully I'm in a wonderful department that offers classes in things like Renaissance and colonial American Latin.
OMG! I MISSED THIS UPLOAD😭
SO GONNA CHANGE THAT!
Have nothing smart to say, but thank you for sharing your thoughts in such a beautiful and interesting way 🩷
Girlie please we need another video ❤
Im obsessed with the percy jackson series. I think the author does a lot of research
I think picking up a story inspired by greek Mythologie means a 50/50 chance the storz will be good because books these days are all the same and lack “drama and tragedie
Aragorn’s ranger sword 😍🤩
Me: Alright, I've finished my RUclips break. Time to get some work done.
*Kate Alexandra has uploaded*
Also me: My hand has been forced....
I always felt the larger West's conception of statecraft had always more come from as a blend between the ideas within the Roman or Byzantine state, Germanic feudalism, and the church unless a state was a creation of the 19th century or later.
Greece being forced to be a cultural one-hit wonder for the sake of us avoiding our own authenticity is a great tragedy. Let Greece be Greece.
I disagree with giving the people in the past a blank check. We should have the right to question even the past. Isn't there a quote by Euripides to question everything? People in the past were very judgemental with those who didn't fit in. Those they deem lacking were at best ostersized, and often even murdered. Even infants. If I was born in ancient Greece, I probably wouldn't have seen my first birthday, because I was born premature and I weighed less than five pounds at birth.
It is very easy to look at people from the past without judgment if you are not disabled, from a discriminated minority group.
I am a black woman from the United States. While the current time is not perfect, my life as a black woman is a hell alot better than the lives of black women who lived prior to the 1980s.
I think it is important to remember that to many people the past was terrible, and they have a right to judge people who lived in the past.
Right, prejudice is prejudice no matter what time period it’s in :/ Just because it was common people tend to think that it’s somehow okay and it’s not 😭
Omg I'm first. I was so hyped when I got the notification!
Your music has the same sound as Outlook notifications. It's a little maddening haha
In a way Atwood did what all other Greek Myth Retellings claim to do. She gave a voice to the invisible women of ancient times. Not Penelope, but her handmaidens.
@Kate Alexandra are you a kiwi? I am and I did classical studies at high school. I’m rediscovering Maori myths and legends through my boys
such a great video!
15:06 I that Trajan? The forefather of my people! The Romanians!
So he's the one to blame for the gypsies.
@@lokenontherange go piss off deep s hit
@@lokenontherangethe gypsies are not Romanian, they come from India
DO YOU SELL PRINTS? also another fantastic video
ANOTHER KATE ALEXANDRA VID, LET’S *GOOOOOO*
You could say many of the same things about Egypt.
As a note, Boris is a classics nerd. He's not trying to come across as smart. He's actually just a dork.
Shut up prat
what's the piano version of dido's lament at the end from?
It's performed by Angelo Villani! ruclips.net/video/KZZNuM9u0ck/видео.html
i think something to keep in mind is that greeks reinterpreted there own myths as time went on. i dont mean modern Greeks to ancient greeks no i mean ancient greek to ancient greeks. Hellenistic period greece a different understanding and different retailing of the myths then classical period greece. and different regions had different myths for certain gods or different aspect to gods. Dionysus started as this big bearded guy and ended up becoming this hot twink all within antiquity. i dont see too big of a difference between modern retellings and the changes that happened during antiquity. speaking as a greek
Thanks for bringing this up. I feel like glossing over the revisionist nature of myth- making and storytelling gets lost in a cumulative sense of a "true" history or objective account-and that any story subject to be repeated will change between retellings.
11:56 hey I know this green text story!
I remember learning Maori myths at school that lead me to all the other mythologies.
I really like your point of view and the contextualization of how classics came to be a study. With that said, i do take issue with the collapsing of classic myth into their written pieces, especially the illiad and the odyssey. The illiad and the odyssey were not written in a single sitting or by a single person... They were told and refined over hundreds if not thousands of years in taverns by entertainers. Therefore, there is no "true" myth there, unlike the plays of Antigone or Medea which were written within the context of myth at the time, but intentionally structured by an author. By the time "Homer" got around to writing these myths down, they had already been devoid of their initial context by centuries. Therefore, when people try to do "feminist retellings" or whatever (though i do think the term "rephrasings" would be better than "retellings") of the illiad and odyssey i kinda see it as the continuation of the ancient bard playing to a tavern audience... In that way, i think it can be a very beautiful continuation of an ancient story. Sure not all of them are winners and we should engage in critique, but to say that they are not "accurate" to the initial story is unfair when the true story, if we can even say there ever was one, was lost as soon as it was first uttered in an ancient tavern.
As a person with a lifelong passion for the Classics(tm), this is one of the most insightful and incredible videos on this subject that I've ever seen, and I really love your content. I was curious if you have read Madeline Miller's Circe. I believe you mentioned her debut novel, The Song of Achilles in your last video, but in my opinion, Circe is a much better book with much more to say and much more care in rooting itself in the time period. Looking forward to seeing more of your work!
Personally I liked Netflix's Kaos
AMAZING !!!!!
Why do you keep conflating Athenian ideas of democracy with modern American or British ideas of democracy? Apart from having similar names they have little in common at all.
Mainly because of attribution, Christianity for example have more contribution in the development of modern Democracies than the Oligarchy which Athens would become devolve later.
Granted the Foundation is there but the Romantic period did a number on this perception disregarding the developments made in the Middle ages and Early Modern Period.
that's... the point she's making
@nikosnikos5082 Given her rant on Boris Johnson being anti democracy because of prorogation unlike his hero Perikles - who by modern standards was a genuinely awful person whose idea of democracy was sexist, classist, racist, and fine with slavery - your interpretation seems a bit weird if that's her point.
If it was her position you'd think she'd just yknow, actually argue that position.
@@lettuceman9439 ironically as much as the Americans like to refer to Russian oligarchs that is also a pretty good descriptor for how America functions as well tbh. So I suppose that at least is something the Americans share with Athens
I wouldnt compared any modern State to atheanian democracy they offer to make Peace with you ON one day and avocate your destruction and enslavement the next day, If you think russia IS unpredictable you never ready anything about athens
great video, but i don't really think you can talk about this without taking greek/roman colonization of parts of europe or the general huge influence greece/rome had into account. for one, i don't think we can think of it in the terms we would, say, smudging in many native american practices or the romani languages, because hellenism doesn't have that sort of a history. ancient greeks and romans brought hellenism along with them wherever they colonized and beyond; to at least introduce the pantheon to a new populous was a part of claiming those lands as their own, not unlike what european countries would later do with christianity in places they colonized. (even if it wasn't what we'd consider missionary work, the general political goal was the same.) there's thousands of years old statues of venus/aphrodite and temples to mithras found in england to speak to that.
in addition, the many germanic, gaelic, and slavic societies, as well as other europeans living outside of the empire or as peripheral subjects, were largely seen as "barbarians" with a "lower" culture by greeks/romans in antiquity, and much of their cultural traditions were lost with conquering, general cultural hegemony, and later conversion to christianity (which rome (or later, the romes) also had a hand in) to the point that most if not all pre-christian accounts of those cultures come from greek/roman sources. though you can say the "power dynamic" flipped now, and the appropriation was definitely nefarious or at the very least not smart, this idea of antiquity as being for the elites or "pan-european" is probably a descendant of those older power structures and social and political orders, even if those labels are artificial and a pretense for elitism and bigotry. hell, the quite literal political dominance of constantinople or rome in europe didn't even start waning too long ago - constantinople only fell in 1453, and the protestant reformation only happened in the 16th century. an inferiority complex to the supposedly more "civilized" cultures of greece or rome (even if that perception is anachronistic and inaccurate) is the sort of thing that gets you to label a time in your own history with no significant input from greek/roman academia as the "dark ages".
in that sense, hellenism became as local to other parts of europe, the middle east, north africa, and south asia as odin was to scandinavia. moreover, i don’t think it’s a stretch to refer to greco-roman mythology as pan-european or even beyond that in the same way american culture became world culture. it's just as much in the cultural wheelhouse of those shitty "retelling" authors, and anglos aren't any more likely to fuck it up due to current-day cultural difference than they are to fuck up stories about eostre. of course, that’s no excuse for thinking of a people and their living culture as something dead that merely served as a “stepping stone” for your own, not doing at least a little bit of research into something that may not be familiar to you, or stealing and hoarding historical artifacts that rightfully belong somewhere else. hell, i'm a middle eastern jew and looking at mormon lore makes me want to throw up. maybe a recognition of ancient greeks and romans as not the valiant, civilized heroes english history books make them out to be, even after all these centuries, will help mitigate this?
Real quick, why are people writing neo-Nazi slogans in the comments?
@@judeconnor-macintyre9874 Much of antiquity, or at least what we consider to be the Classic era, has been unfortunately co-opted by Nazis in the past and neo-nazis today. There are many arguments on why that happened, but it is inevitable that a video about that era will catch their eye.
@@judeconnor-macintyre9874 Woah, don't called the Morons Neo-nazis yet that will diminish the word.
Most of them are British Nationalists and Balkaners who got miffed by the Boris Johnson part and some parts Kate kinda skipped over.
1) It that she skimmed and barely mentioned the Eastern Roman Empire, Which to Most of Orthodox Europe is their version of Ancient Greece. Idk maybe in the next video she will address it but you cannot really talk about Philhellenism without having a section dedicated to the legacy of Byzantium and Orthodox Christianity.
2) The British Nationalist and the Balkaners, Generally have a different perspective on the stolen Greek artifact, For the British it's mostly bad takes but for the Balkaners it does have a some grey area. Many of said Greek Artifact weren't found in greece alone but within the Turkey, Bulgaria and much of the Balkans as historically Greece was much larger and a lot of Greeks lived in Anatolia before the Population exchange (Which itself is considered a consensual ethnic Cleansing between Turkey and Greece after the Turkish war of Independence). Who owned these artifacts is already a complications question add in the regional politics in the Balkans + North Macedonia claiming they are Macedonian (They are ethically Slavs), Will certainly ruffle the feathers of some folks in the Balkans (and British Imperialist)
@lettuceman9439 for number 2 it's not just orthodox europe, but orthodox Christians in general (be they from Bosnia, Russia, Syria, Egypt, or somewhere else)
@judeconnor-macintyre9874 Most of the arguments for linking modern and ancient greece together as if they share a continuity are based on the same kind of thing so it attracts those kids of people.
@@lokenontherangethen why can modern Greeks read Plato but westerners have to learn it in school?