Juggernauts: The Class Balanced Around Going Second | League of Legends
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- Опубликовано: 23 ноя 2024
- For today's video, I wanted to discuss the Juggernaut subclass in more detail, namely to describe how they're balanced and why it feels like they can be simultaneously really strong yet really weak. That's because, they're the only champions in the game that move second!
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#LoL #Juggernauts #Fighters
Honestly, I like juggernauts. Save for some certain times in the game’s lifespan (Juggernaut Rework in 2015 and pre-reworked Stridebreaker in 2021), they’re usually pretty honest in the way they fight. Mano a mano, up close and personal, and capable of taking a punch and going the extra mile.
and most of them are honest champs, no 4 dash, invis and 2k true damage on a basic ability
Unless it's morde, fuck fighting morde
@@Machosause just buy qss and kite the shit out of him
@@Machosause I play Morde and he's the weakest champ in my pool.
@@HamsterPants522 I was going to make a comment on this, but wtf is that profile bro?
Sett's whole line of "You swing on the boss? You better not miss" really captures Juggernaut classes
It's so ironically accurate that juggernauts are practically what other games have for bosses. Big and tanky and also dealing a whole lot of damage, and the opponents have multiple turns to hit them, sometimes even healing like estus in dark souls. It's exactly like playing as a Boss. Lol
@@lucasrv2630 really love the games I play where people just call my Mordekaiser a raid boss, tanking all damage as an appetizer and the enemies for the main course
@@Xephyranth Laughs in 7k Hp Sion. With Fimbulwinter and Titanic Hydra
@@sababezhashvili598 me when fimbulwinter is honest trash
Being a raidboss is why Gallio's one of my favorite for-fun champions. He's not a juggernaut, due to not having enough on demand damage, but with aftershock and his passive, every ~20 seconds, he can get quite close. And there's few things more satisfying than essentially being the unexpected 2nd phase of one of your squishies.
I couldn't wrap my head around the "Class balanced on going second" meaning until you mentioned turns in turn-based games, then I felt as if I trascended in intelligence.
That's why I adore your videos
is it strange that a Smash pro making analytical videos on a moba being my favourite youtube series?
i thought he meant the general feeling of top lane "counter or be countered pick second and win"
I love playing juggernauts since you get that "im kind of a problem" moment when you hit powerspikes. With the right items you can sacrifice a bit of damage that would be overkill anyway to get the speed to close the distance. Like i play against garen and my adc never understands that he only needs a deadmans plate to kill them with ult. Or my most beloved champ is probably urgot, you may be slow as fck but you can also tank a whole lot and once someone is dumb enough to get close they end up in the grinder. Or morde with ghost and lethal tempo, just bonking someone to death who didnt buy qss or a spellshield.
I like your picture, its neat.
@@lilBx554 umm thanks
Actually Urgot can't tank shit since he doesn't build that tanky unlike Garen or Nasus.
The adc didn't forget that garen can kill with just ult and deadman's, they just couldn't do anything about it
spell shield isn't even that effective because mos ap characters are slower thab morde anyways and those who aren't don't need it because they can just avoid him even in brazil
Juggernauts also feel good to play as, being a Mordekaiser simp i love the feeling of "I am an unstoppable force" the Juggernauts give people, makes you feel like you're the enemies main threat and even if you're loosing (at least to) it feels oddly good
And oh man, how good it feels if you're actually doing good, running down groups of enemies makes my synapses go wild, when you hit that "SHATTER!" On every kill
A morde main 🤢
My exact feelings when playing Aatrox and going ahead, you just feel like an unkillable raid boss going 1v2-3 and still winning
@@jaotrx7163 yes i main the trashcan
@@AceOf_Diamonds_ side note i really hope they make the Juggernauts in the mmo as bosses, Mordekaiser probably being the final final boss
@@thebaron9405 they're doing a Lol mmo? Because then nobody screams "I'm the final boss of the raid" than Aatrox.
Love how Vars used pokemon to describe mutual exchange while having a clip of Ursaluna, a relatively slow pokemon, getting 2 moves in a row lmao
Probably my favorite class of champion. straight forward, satisfying and not depended on 200 years BS to be functional
plain and simple "run in do damage, you live and it feels nice, you die and you still feel nice"
Claping ranged toplaners is the most satisfying thing ever
Totally agree with you! However, every time I try to play them, in the last period, I found them a bit squishy, even with tons of defences. I can't wait for the new patch in 25/5, which is going to increase the general survivability and to lower the effect of the damage bursts.
@@mechahit1296 darius is kind of countered by ranged champions
@@zodiark93 everyone feels squishy. Unless you are a fed sion or orn
I personally feel that the smash bros analogy can extend to fighting games in general, with grapplers taking the role of “juggernaut”. In guilty gear Potemkin has no dash but pot buster 3 shots 90% of the roster, Zangief is slow but SPD can completely turn a fight, in Tekken, Gigas has very easy access to hyper armor and overkill into a wall can damn near 2 shot.
And then there's Faust at the 10% who just dies the moment he enters the match.
Oh man I remember when I used to play Tekken and I was playing Devil Jin.
I wasn't very good at him ,but he was really fun to play.
yea, but he probably uses smash since hes more familiar with it and can easily make comparisons
@@volcanicviper5984 fair enough, I just thought it was cool how far the concept can truly be applied
To a similar extent, strong poke kind of shuts grapplers and Juggernauts down because it's designed to prevent the opponent from taking their turn.
Basically juggernauts are like game bosses, you have out maneuver them and out range them before they can hit you
yeah, i'd love to see you outmaneuver a darius with ghost or an illaoi that ults once
@klaus6091 illaoi you can run, but ghost darius good luck
Being the raid boss is the feeling everyone wants, and the only class capable of is Jugs.
especially when u get fed top, you can easy 1v2, 1v3 and even take on their whole team to stall baron. UNLIMITED POWAH... till teamfight start and you went full dmg LOL
Dr mundo can too
@@Betroid Mundo is a juggernaut, so yeah
@@Betroid mundo is garbage rn bro against good players
Illaoi story time: just had a game against a full AP team, final fight lasted 50 seconds 1v4, and I got a triple
There's nothing quite walking into a fight, causing some trouble, realising you are in trouble, and then just walking back out while chaos goes on around you. Other classes make use of mobility or dashes to get out, but the juggernaut just nopes out (or tries to).
Always love playing nasus and being harassed by the other top laner, until they think they're safe and I go ham on them with over 300 stacks and tanking more damage than they're able to ditch out only with the basic abilities, not even bothering with the ulti
You flash q auto e ult as garen and just ran away until your cooldowns come back up (your adc and mid liner will die in 2 seconds)
one of the thing i love from juggernaut is their glorious animation. assasins gameplay are flashy but their animations aren't. they just come, ,kill and go in a blink. juggernaut on the other hand take some time to kill and you can watch the animation play out. aatrox spreading his wings, volibear leaping like a madman, morde sending you to shadow realm, sett giving a fucking RKO to your opponent, and the list goes on... they always feel good to me because of that
When I saw the title I just said "YUP" out loud. It is 4 am
same here
When I played League, Juggernauts were always the class I found myself going back to, with personal favorites of mine being Urgot, Sett and(new) Mordekaiser. In most games, I always have an affinity for classes where I just go fucking ham without much care, and Juggernauts really lend themselves to this playstyle well.
Two of mains are in thumbnail let's gooo
"What is a fighter even" - I think a fighter's role can change depending on the state of the game. They're usually adept at isolated fights (where the holy trinity of dps tank support doesnt apply) and in teamfights, they usually do try to break the enemies' formation and get the dps or the healer past the tank. In certain scenarios though, they can act as a pseudo tank in the formation, like to take aggro their late game ADc, as a tank's role anyway is to make space for the carries to deal damage
I love how you can adapt juggernaughts to your own play Style. You can go high damage/low survival potential or pure tank sacrificing damage.
This video came out at the perfect time for me. One of my friends and I typically tend to argue about League related things, for fun as we enjoy having our back and forths. One of the topics I cant seem to explain to him though is why, in my opinion, Juggernauts are an exceptionally designed class. His response is always "I fucking hate how being a Juggernaut means you just win a 1v1", and I couldn't really ever bounce back on that front.
Now I can thanks for providing me with ammo to shit on his opinion /s
One other thing that I think is important to mention is that the "turns" in LOL are easily underutilised by newer players, so a newb might just stand around for the time Darius gets to them and then flunk the only advantage they had.
In smash bro's, you similarly need to know how to interrupt an opponent to make use of your speed advantage.
In my experience, this makes characters like Illaoi or King dedede seem unfair to worse players because they don't know how to utilize their advantage of "speed".
What feels bad is people confusing juggernauts with tanks and, since many of them don't know how to play around juggernauts (a big part of the playerbase is in low Elo), they would say that tanks are overpowered.
And the Collection tab in the game doesn't help, they haven't updated that thing even though the class system was updated in 2017. It still calls Garen, Darius and Sett "tanks", while the real tanks are the ones hurt the most by those claims and nerfs directed at their items.
They are still tanks and primarily tank damage.
@@Sammysapphira They aren't tanks in any capacity. They are stat stick bruisers on steroids. They have auto win 1 vs 1 passives and they definitely don't build tanky. Or are you saying that since Virgo is capable of outsustaining a team and getting a penta, he is suddenly is a tank?
@@Sammysapphira
Juggernauts are not tanks, they are a type of fighter/bruiser.
Tanks are comprised of only vanguards and wardens.
For an assassin or an ADC point of view, Juggernauts are just tanks
And the fact is that they buy a lot of tank item, except the mythic and maybe death dance sometime
Even Morde' Jngl Predator, wich is secret OP even in Master/GM elo, is played full tank
Problem is just that tanks runs so fast, at a point it's almost impossible to kite or escape em, especially if you are a melee, with their CC/Slow/Speed
My favorite bit is that, because you go second, and juggernauts have such honest kits, you have to think outside the box to sneak some of those turns back into your favor.
I still miss role names like "initiator" and "counter-initiator"
@Poor Quality Gameplay I'd say both vanguards and divers would be initiators
Dota2 still uses that, why did lol change that?
@@mistared4021 “flavor” Vanguard sounds better than Initiator
@@TTMILKYTTVanguard sounds better. Initiator conveys the meaning better.
I feel like as of now it's a 50 - 50, depends on which team gets ahead early, you'll either carry or be completely obliterated without doing anything useful. But the upcoming durability changes I feel will be healthier for juggernauts, since they'll survive long enough to deal damage
As someone who mains Mordekaiser, this video was very informative and actually helped me realize a few things
I don’t think Mordekaiser mains realize too much - morde main
I think a similar form of the mobility question is in mmos, specifically ffxiv since that's the one I'm familiar with. There are 3 types of dps in that, melees, casters, and phys rangeds, who don't need to cast. You can usually find some people debating about the balancing of the phys ranged, more than you can the balancing of any other job, because the phys ranged have "mobility tax" on their dps, meaning they deal less because they don't have to stay in melee range, or stay still to cast. The debate comes from the mobility tax having to be calculated not only on the relative mobility of the other jobs, but also how much mobility is needed in the fights, because if a fight for example, has full melee uptime and no movement, then what use is the mobility, the phys ranged are getting taxed for no reason.
I think the problem with juggernauts is that they become a kind of Stat checker and that's why people think they are unfair to play against, cause no matter what you do you can't beat them if they do that one thing that make the success, and in most cases is to get close to you,
@@cokecan6169 did u mean second?
Oh, yes, the champions all Yasuo and Irelia mains say are braindead and broken because they lose to them 1v1 and always fail to realize they have no range and no mobility, meaning brute force is all they bring to the table.
I find it especially funny when those same players claim we're in a "tank meta" and then they're talking about Mundo and Tahm Kench.
Imagine an irelia main complaining anything is broken
@@AllYourPals I don't even play her anymore and she's not. I've never lost against one in tbe past month and they are higher elo than me.
Also my whole issue with tanks is that miss any one ability against them or even get hit and you are dead. The counter argument for range doesn't really apply because you need time to kill them and they can set up their team to kill yours within seconds which isn't long enough for an adc to do anything.
You could be Vayne and still just get Ed or Qed and even if you dodge that you are still cced one shot by Zac.
And everyone knows Ornn can one shot an Irelia from full health while perma ccing her with tank items
there's plenty of clips of say for example an Ornn doing this or surviving an entire teams for so long.
And the adc gets one shot for even stepping close
@@2BsYummySoles i mean thats good, orn should be able to kill irelia so hard she becomes permabanned
@@theimmortaleye7511 i mean poppy could do that but ornn does it better
i'd be okay with juggernauts if their whole "can't get on top of you but if they do they win" thing was like, actually true. Seemingly every juggernaut now has a movespeed boost or a dash or simple to use CC, and if they don't, there are a million items to help them get to that point, so if you're immobile or even if you're just normally mobile, but not hypermobile, they will catch you. The only juggernaut i can think of that actually has a hard time getting in is Illaoi, and you did a great job explaining why she is very niche.
This video quality and the way the rift looks is amazing. Great video concept too but the quality was just so good. Really enjoyed the video
and thats why my darius uses deadmans force of nature mercs and wits to "stick" to a target
I like to play tanks and juggernauts because of the playstyle of using your health and other resources, to effectively get you big damage in, basically, I like "waiting my turn" because then I get to kick everyone's shit in once the ball is in my court
anyone else saw the flying karma? 11:04 jsjsjjjs kinda funny to see her dodging SS like nothing while flying and supporting 7w7r without a doubt the strongest champion hahahha
Coolest and hardest toplane class Idc about your "b-b-but fiora irelia" they statcheck even more than they do while having easy mobility and less counterplay
If you have a quick acess dash in your kit fiora absolutely doesnt stat check you
I actually think that juggernauts are fine with striking "anytime". Being resilient enough to engage and last long in a clash without having to worry about mobility is a trait that makes them simple yet intimidating.
Juggernauts are fight or flight because yes they have the damage and durability but their consistency is non existent. Darius and Mordekaiser have ways to engage the fight but they are to slow or lack the range. Darius's E having +50 range and Mord's E being faster will be way more viable even if their damage gets nerfed with it. There is no point in having so much damage and then have no real skill to use it
i would honestly sacrifice a bit of Sett's dmg if it means more range with E or more MS with Q. dosent matter if you can destroy the whole enemy team in a few secs if you cant hit them
You don't need to get close if your caitlyn can attack for you. If they fight her, they have to stand still, meaning you can just shred them.
Nah Jugs are in a great position right now they're actually my favorite class right now my main being Urgot and flex pick of Mordekaiser if the team needs AP damage or Aatrox and Sion if I just want to relax and slight int on games but still win.
Changing those stats will make them lose their identity of being slow but high damage high survivability and I have no problem gap closing against enemy champs since I don't walk up to them they walk up to me by using bushes and teammates as bait for them also tower pressure.
If they get more tools to engage they will have to be nerfed in other areas. Mordekaiser and Darius are already retardedly strong. Darius has the same amount of AD if not more than a full built ADC at 1 item + Conq and passive stacked.
Though I still feel sad for those sett mains after the gore nerf. I mean after gore nerf they buffed rhaast max health dmg to kingdom come but sett didn't any help in anything. Every goredrinker abuse had something going except that guy. But I still do have hard times against a good sett. I remember the time I went against a exhaust sett as volibear. It didn't end well
What ? Sett literally got W buff, HP buff and R buff and now he is doing really well.
@@walkelftexasranger 7-8 months ago. I quit playing ranked after I reached plat(i used sett voli and garen , all where broken back then) last season but I can say with full confidence that every item change effected sett more than anyone else. But everyone still on about that W buff which was too strong mind u but its not that anymore. Last day alone while playing with my friends I took sett for old times sake in like months and played it like before the gore nerf was pretty hard that my own friends started laughing at me calling boosted XD.
Yea Sett is is a really awkward spot rn but they cant really buff anything besides his AD ratios cuz then he can be flexed in other positions aswell which riot doesnt want. perhaps they could give him a higher armor and mr stat to begin with but rn Sett can only wish he gets a proper buff
but if u ask me im ok with having Sett as the most useless and crappiest juggernaut to play(i main him) cuz atleast then ppl wont rant and get him nerfed to Oblivion again.
Loved the Smash Bros connection you made. I play it all the time (it’s my favorite video game) and I just started playing League again recently so even though I’m not spending all of my free time showing people my moves I still get to think about it while I burn everyone to death as Brand
I love when i hear players say darius is the most broken toplaner while, its rly fun being one of the few players whos playing around macro, matchups and so on in low elo, people just think differently there
My only problem with Darius top is I forget how much damage hemorrhage does early game. At 1-2 games per day I'll go weeks without seeing him sometimes. Then we engage and I remember.
He's not broken if you know how to play against him (he is pretty simple), but holy shit does he ruin your time if he gets a lead
I just hate playing against him because it's so unfun. You gotta wait like 9 levels without doing much until you outscale him. (At least if you're not incredibly good or playing an early game champ). He's not unfair, just unfun for me
I don’t play top, and I don’t have much problem dealing with Darius. I still despise playing against him because there’s a 50-50 chance my top lamer will walk right up to him lvl 1 and be useless for the rest of the game
@@N0TYALC It's not that they walk up to him. It's part of the meta of top noone talks about. Everyone talks about how it's an island or a wasteland. What very few people talk about is the diversity top. Everything, everything, can be found top. There's top tanks, top skirmishers, top mages, top supports, top adcs, and on and on and on. Every class in LoL has a champion that either plays top or can flex top. There is more diversity in top lane than anywhere else, including jungle. And that means there's more just fail matchups. Darius can just stomp certain champions that play top at will, without them walking up to him. Conversely there's some champions that play top which can stomp Darius at will. That means top is the king of counter picking. Being the second top lane person to choose in champion select can define the game in a way no other position can. I know at champion select if I'm going to win or lose top. It's not even a question. That 50/50 you're talking about. It's the coin flip of who picks first in champion select. There's games I look at being down 30cs and 1 death as a win, I massively outplayed them to get that horrible result. That's how bad top is sometimes.
Juggernauts in a nutshell: take 0 damage, deal 10 million damage
I dont think there is a lot to say about SUBclasses but i think this one might be interesting. I also wanna see a vídeo about skirmichers, that would be nice too.
the way i look at juggernauts and being slow is, If you are going to auto win if you get into melee range, you should atleast have a hard time getting into melee range.
I think juggernauts tend to do really well into divers, vanguards, and wardens, but matchup poorly against marksmen, artillery, burst/control mages, skirmishers, enchanters, and catchers, and are sort of neutral/it depends vs assassins, battlemages, and other juggernauts.
Juggernauts really like it when champions have to get up close to hurt them. They don't like champs that outdps them up close (skirmishers, some battlemages, other juggernauts) or can burst them before they get rolling (some assassins, some battlemages), but they are better off up close then not close at all.
Artillery, catchers, and control mages tend to smoke them by keeping them out with range and CC, while marksmen and enchanters can usually control them or DPS them down before they get close. So primarily, they actually exist as a lever to control Divers and Vanguards.
Think about it. Vanguards generally just roll over most other classes if they can just weather all the damage and get up in your face and beat the snot out of you. They really only hate skirmishers, but because Vangaurds shine so much in teamfights, where skirmishers are worst, they have ways out. Divers are usually the same, you can't burst them out like you can assassins, and they have lots of explosive, disruptive CC and damage. Some can even beat down skirmishers. Wardens generally exist to stop these classes, but aren't capable of being teamwide threats in their own right. And in the same way that Divers differ from Wardens, so to do Juggernauts differ from Wardens. Trade extra crowd control for more damage.
Most classes in the game have some sort of tradeoff from an adjacent class or two and exist only in their relationship (in general) to other classes. Every class is naturally countered by some component of another class. Assassins hate tanky targets they can't burst. Divers hate slippery marksmen. If you build a teamcomp, and you draft some high range characters to snub out some battlemage or control mage, and the opponent responds with dive, then you can respond with a Juggernaut or Warden for close range damage. Very few classes are good in isolation. If Divers and Vanguards and Assassins are strong, Juggernauts, Catchers and Wardens rise up to answer them. If Juggernauts and Wardens and Catchers are strong, Skirmishers and Enchanters and Artillery become strong.
What I like is that league just has specialists. Like Teemo. They can just do what they want them to.
i remember one time there was one pushing my tower, and i was adc, tried to stop them, they proceeded to completely ignore me, i autoed them 15 times before they killed tower and then got one shot by them, having only dealt half of their health
that was a gameplay experience, certainly
Gotta say, the best mid-late game counter to juggernauts is a skillfully played Lillia. A good amount of percent health damage and enough mobility to dance around skillshots (and even ghost late game), not to mention the option to build a couple tank items if needed.
As a Juggernaut player(mainly Darius) I completely concur, Lillia completely neutralizes everything most juggernauts do, she stays just out of range when going for Q’s and her busted movement speed means that unless I have ghost, flash and Force of Nature I can’t keep up
Lillia is cancer and I hate her, you can't touch here ever, she qs once and has 425 ms, and by a full rotation she has double your ms and dodges everything. I play zac so I can at least flash on her
@@AGuy-0751 yeah, she is pretty vulnerable early when her q is only level 1/2, but by level 5 (3 points in q), she is a terror to try and catch. And the fact it has ap scaling ms boost makes it even crazier late game
I think that an interesting passive for a future juggernaut could be something like "you get from X to Y% movement speed based on your current health" this would make it so that once they use their cooldowns, you are realistically able to get counterplay, and also introduces risk and reward which is mostly an healthy thing in videogames. ofcourse I thought of this passive imagining that the numbers would be pretty high like 20-30% at max and the champion in question won't have any other form of movement
This is the missing link. I never understood the bigger picture of fighters, but this is so mind blowing. Much respect.
Well with the durability patch, clearly something was off about range being equivalent to stats. And with league, not having vision on that juggernaut means you most likely won't have those turns...so they become assassins with massive health pools and defenses. They won't be able to chase you down without deadman's/ghost/flash, but you also won't be able to run without those two. The only advantage of range is being good at kiting...which is why juggs are often called braindead/skill-less : they kill you without giving you a chance to do anything or they endlessly chase/run away from you(1vs1 scenario, in a teamfight, there's a lot more than that). Both of which don't require much effort and give maximum or no rewards. IDK about you guys, but i never see a juggernaut do average, they always carry or feed.
At the moment I think juggernauts are fine. As a juggernaut player myself well, I also play mostly singed but he has low juggernaut qualities when fed.
But you see where as Skirmishers are fast and tend to dive the back line and work well in even matched up fights like 1v1 and 2v2 and vice verse
I think a good path to go with juggernauts would be to make them the go to champions that deal with 1v2 and 1v3.
As in make them stronger against multiple enemy's when they are alone. Like a split push class similar to what we have with hullbreaker.
For example old irelia before the rework had that passive that made her gain more tenacity when more enemy's were present. Or in another game Hero's of newerth. Before his rework prisoner 945 had a passive that made it so when he was alone and there was a enemy he'd gain a ridiculous 25% more base AD. But tbis adds up per enemy so he can have 125% more base AD if the entire enemy team was there and he was alone.
Kind of like making juggernauts a anchor or a true raid boss.
Where they'll be stronger with more enemy's when they are alone but weaker if they are vs a lot of enemy's but they also have a team.
It would be weird but imagine if darius couldn't get noxian might if he was close to a teammate. Or if Garen doesn't get his HP regen out of combat near allies. But in turn you can also buff those aspects for that reason.
I feel like juggernauts can effectively 1v2 or 1v3 already. It’s just always a game of fighting around them and never directly on them
Vars my man i would love to see you talking about the lanes as a whole, starting by the jungle, and why is it so important and (imo) why is it TOO important
11:16
Karma casually walking in another plane of existence
I love playing yorick and urgot and mordekaiser and sometimes illaoi, though she lacks consistency compared to the former. They are just impossible to kill while ahead, tanking up most of the frontline damage no problem while dishing out twice the damage a carry should do. I also like playing against juggernauts because we're both slow and we can actually, honestly hit eachother unlike the game of dodge the skillshot and predict the dash with all those assassin. Juggernauts are for straightforward people who want to get in their opponents face and smack them
I’m surprised the discussion of “turns” and Pokemon didn’t lead to Vars bringing up Regigigas or Slaking, the quintessential slow hulking juggernauts of that series
I like them. I play Kat almost exclusively and have often joked to my friends that I like the fact that I just die to mordekaiser regardless of if hes mega fed or not. They feel pretty fair.
I think the only issue, as with most of the game currently, is STILL with items. A mord building MR and bruiser items and making me feel useless? Thats okay. A garen rushing all movespeed percentage items and becoming too fast, too tanky, and too high in damage for my team to stop? feels super gross.
garen has always been kinda cancerous in this regard, like his only thing is speed for engage or disengage, hes like this weird ass horrible exception XDD
tbh i could listen to vars talk about anything for days
My big issue with juggernauts is if you're also a melee champion like a diver... you just basically aren't allowed to do anything near the juggernaut. Or edge cases where said juggernaut takes ghost then he just seems to have little weakness at all.
This honestly showcases the importance of counterpicks. if you get counterpicked in lane, all you do is try not to die and hope the rest of your team does well. There are counterpicks to all the juggernauts too, though, so it's not like they just get a free lane by picking them.
In general top lane is essentially just a big game of rock paper scissors, where skill expression lies mostly in how well you can survive bad match-ups and how well you can take advantage of good ones. That's why champs with global pressure (like Shen or GP) are so good in solo queue. Even in bad match-ups they have tools to impact the rest of the map before plates fall.
@@aaronparry2636 yeah but no class should just counter "melee" as a whole.
Except that ....nothing stops you from taking ghost too?
Also , you as a diver has clear advantages above juggernauts , you can get to immobiles , and even mobile champs way easier, the game is not 1v1 , you arr not forced to fight juggernauts alone
@@daymianhogue1634 as God of Demencia noted, juggernauts do not simply counter all melees. They counter some melees in some situations. Melee tanks lane fine against them as a nullified lane, melee skirmishers outscale them in team fights and divers can put out more map pressure if they roam and gank other lanes early. Just don't fight them 1v1 in melee range.
I think they perform the tank job better than actual tanks sometimes. Since they are an actual threat, they have to be focused, and that gives the rest of the team the time to do their thing, if you don't focus them, they destroy you.
Their built in survivability also makes them the most raid bossy when fed. Mages, assasina and ADCs still die to a couple of mistakes, even when fed.
“Tanks do what tanks are supposed to do” as a tank main I disagree. They need to actually tank. Not do unexpected damage (as much as people hate ornn.. his 25%ish max hp dmg is expected.)
Late game tanks just don’t do anything frankly. Firstly. Vayne and Fiora exist. Secondly. You just melt like a squishy late game. You can have 6k hp and 400 defenses and still not survive more than 3 Seconds.
I hate to beat the dead horse of “tanks do too much dmg and don’t tank enough” (when I say too much damage I mean something like zac. Ornn does a lot too but you can tweak brittle
with all the true dmg and armor and magig pen it's normal that tanks don't do shit, specially when there are items than by themselfs give 35% and 40% pen for a lower cost than most of items
I feel like a big part of this (on top of true dmg) is the whole mechanic of physical and magic dmg. Tanks are forced to split their itemization to accommodate for two types of threats where as the dps characters can just stack up ad or ap. It’s the whole reason why tanks can feel so squishy but then you can have a game with 5 ad or 5 ap and next thing you know the tanks become unkillable. There just isn’t many tank items that can cover both so ur usually left not having enough of 1 or the other for most of the game.
you misundertand what a tank is supposed to do...
either cc lock the target or peel your dmg carries. thats it
@@greatgatorgaming6024 even with 350~ of each as ornn and 5500 health you still die on less than 3 seconds. Happened to me last week
@@RustingPeace it even say's it on the name, they are supposed to TANK dmg and block skillshots, cc locking is a support's role in every other moba except in this one
I'm surprised you didn't talk about the fact that most juggernauts just attempt to ignore this now quite successfully often times by going flash + ghost as well as some move speed items and runes like dead man's plate
Its funny going Nasus, getting approach velocity and just using W on the poor adc as well as a ghost maybe, watching them try to run in fear but for no reason ehehe
Considering the patch we're getting, they're about to be able to run down anything and everything.
If stridebreaker isn't allowed to have a dash neither should galeforce. Both aleviate the weakness of their respective class in the same way.
But then you remember
Galeforce has a 120 second cooldown, did stridebreaker had a 120 second cooldown?
Im a Shyvana/Garen main , and even i know that stridebreaker was broken , it not only gave us mobility , but removed the target mobility
In terms of balance between DPS and juggernauts, I am happy with in general. My issue with juggernauts, divers, and other fighters is when they do tanks' jobs better than tanks. They all bring big effective health pools with hard CC. But Jaugernauts take less time to become strong (and stay strong later into the game), bring damage, and have self-healing mechanics (this is big since the enemy DPS only has to buy AR shred for tanks but has to have anti healing as well.) You can ignore a tank after their big CC ult is down.
In Heroes of the Storm, these kinds of champions would be classified as "Bruisers" which I think I've heard used in other games beyond just MOBAs, but basically it means having some form of tankiness or sustain, as well as the capability to dish out decent chunks of damage. You don't have the same level of durability as a tank or the burst of an assassin, and you don't have any hard CC and are usually lacking robust mobility options, and while you might have abilities that have an "extended" range, you aren't going to be sniping anyone with anything from far away, and if you do have some kind of long distance ability, it's probably very reactable, you'll see it coming from a mile away, or it does relatively minor amounts of damage. You more than likely have mana inefficiencies in your kit meaning you need to be selective with your abilities and not just spam them as well.
A hero (champion) that I feel embodies this really well in Hots specifically is Ragnaros. His Q empowers his next auto attack, makes it have an AoE effect, and functions as an auto reset. His W summons a meteor that rolls across the ground, and you can choose what direct it rolls in, and his E empowers himself or an ally with bonus movement speed for a short duration, then after it expires it explodes for some AoE damage. Like basically every other hero in HotS, he has the option of 2 different ultimate abilities, but the one I feel would fit League better would be the one where he summons a giant hammer at a targeted location which does high (but easily avoidable) damage. His other option summons a lava wave in one of the three lanes starting from your nexus, then goes down the lane killing all enemy minions it comes across and does pretty high damage against any enemy who stands in it otherwise. And it's visible on the map regardless of team affiliation and it has a global audio que, meaning you know it's coming to get out of the way ahead of time.
0:47 assassins cons: low resilience and low survivability .
laugh in yone.
Finally my favorite class. Illaoi and Urgot my beloved
Juggernauts are always going to have be balanced around utility, self and otherwise. They have to be able to succeed in a game where the optimal strategy is antithetical to how they play which is why they are so binary. The TP nerf has been a huge blessing in disguise to the class as it allows flash + ghost into more games.
On my group of friends, I'm the only one that play Juggernauts characters and it feels nice to be the tank for the team, despite their complaints about "playing tanks is boring".
Seems like people like to play anything else but tanks because they can't do sick plays or that kinds of stuff when you're the slower man of the bunch.
As an Illaoi main, who plays in casual matches and has a regular 70% winrate, it isn't just about playing second due to being slower. It's setting up in your kill zone. Or, for Yorick, having your ghouls or Maiden ready. For those two especially, if you're caught out without your passives, you're basically lost.
And with Illaoi especially, if you miss the E, you're boned.
Yeah, true. In low elo, where I reside, seemingly no one knows how to play against Illaoi, so people tend to think she is overpowered and brakes game balance beyond repair. Same goes for every juggernaut, especially if player knows his champ and understands the basics of the game.
By the way, yesterday I had a game, where enemy ADC had 200 more health, then me as Aatrox (I didn't build lethality, so I should've been tanky enough, but alas). Oh, yeah, and in every fight enemy team just cancelled my movement speed by endless slow and stuns, so I could not deal any damage or escape. We won, though, thanks to my friend who played well in jungle and decent team efforts.
I kinda have a solution but idk, what if riot release an item similar to phage, but instead of giving movespeed after hitting hitting an opponent , it gives some movespeed after getting hit by a certain amount of attacks or damage, which means it'll give the enemy a certain number of free hits on the juggernauts but u'll die if u don't, and the movespeed might be adjusted, for example 0.5% movespeed for each hit and it stacks for 10 times
The comparison of going first can be turned around if you play around vision, and strike an enemie before they see you, that's why vision soo OP, can make anyone able to strike first, the thing is, some champs do have the possibilitie to get away from them before they can finish their stuff, for example EZ,kassadin, etc...
Aatrox is hybrid of juggernauts and fighters. On the theory he is the strongest top laner. But in reality he isnt anything special. He will be once certain fighters get nerfed. (Fiora,Irellia,Riven,Cammile).
Hope they nerf the listed toplaners
juggernaut is a subclass of fighters/bruisers...
not a hybrid
and by statstick he isnt the strongest toplaner either, nor utility, or usefullness
@@RustingPeace i meant like hybrid of statcheckers and skillfull fighters. He has range that juggernauts are not supposed to have, he has good base stats (one of the highest base ad in the game and resistances a little below juggernauts), he has short but usefull dash for combat and movement in jg, he has kinda bad passive but its usefull, saved me many times, he deals mostly AOE damage, he heals from that AOE damage without penalties,he has w for locking down immobile enemies, he has one of the best ultimates in the game, his whole power is in his ult, movement speed steroid, damage steroid and healing boost, he becomes ghosted (can pass through minions) and fears them all and jg creeps, plus his ult "resets" on every takedown. He is almost like a statchecker without class disabilities. But others like i said are much more stronger in stats and skills right now and they have little amount of counters while Aatrox has little amount but really affecting counters like armor, anti heal and constant fast mobility. Riven catches mobile enemies, she defeats tanks because her sustain is on her spammable shield, and anti heal in current meta is a must because of all the items but before it wasnt counter to her. Same with Fiora and Irellia and Cammile. Their skills are too good, Aatrox had better but he was gutted and they are not.
As someone that plays top as these roles, Nasus being one of those who are just unbalanced by being brokenly bad and good. Yes let him get scaling Q but he needs balancing around that. Champions that counter him are easily destroyed by his W 99% slowness for 5s, not to mention attk speed slow and defense stats reduction. Everything Nasus does just make him insanely strong if he is left alone in lane for 4-5minutes. But even if he gets capped at 200 stacks, he still does insane dmg. Ghost + W is so damn strong.
Q - Stacks infinitely. 3 per minion. 6 - 12 for any big monster. 12 for champion and dragon. (infinite btw)
W - Reduces movement speed and attack speed by 99% (opposite of decaying) for 5s.
E - Reduces all defence stats by x amount (idk number) + dot dmg
R - Reduces Q cooldown by half and increases healing and health by x amount
Broken Passive - This is his healing that makes him so damn strong alongside his Q. At early levels its just there and lets his have that extra durability, but late game combined with his Q becomes so dumb, especially since the anti-healing nerf. They nerfed life-stealing items but not Nasus passive healing.
A reasonable nerf for him would be his Q being capped + when healed his Q has a set cooldown rather than half so if its 2s then the ult should have Q reduc by (0.5s, 0.75s, 1s).
Then another one would make him have 25-30% less healing from his passive late game.
I love playing as Nasus but its just too stupid when you have nobody to 1v1 him due to his insane late game. Going full tank + divine sunderer with 400 Q stacks and phase rush or ghost just makes it gg. I have played with a lot of teams with tons of cc, sustain and damage and he just out sustains, out damages all of it
(9:40) So true! It is so hard for heavyweights to do well in competitive Smash Bros. These beefy tanks are always mid card pick or worse. Their humongous mass makes them easy to combo on.
The diference betwen jugernauts in MOBAs and heavy weiths in Smash is the diference betwen heaven and hell. Characters with feel engage opitions work better in games with strong system mecanics. Since they dont have good mobility to get a good position when they are not fighting, they need stuff to do when they are not fighting. LOL has plenty of macro play choices to do, such as pushing lane, chosing which oponent to fight, buying iteims, farming, and helping with objectives.
I love going Morde or Sett, clean house and becoming this behemoth that advances and creates havoc on the other team. Yeah, I love Warwick and creating chaos while alienating enemies, but feeling like a raid boss is just as fun
Darius: ghost phase rush
*There is no god*
Darius: besides me
I love Juggernauts (specially Illaoi and Mordekaiser) because it symbolize my fighting style in sparring, Illaoi and Morde post an territorial threat. It's like saying "come close to me you'll die." The reason why I play League for so long, is because of Juggernauts (or Tanks) they are the boss (me IRL: anti-bullies in school).
I mostly see juggernaut's pretty versatile. I like to play them, they are just cut to play top lane.
I think giving juggernauts a way to play neutral like Dr. Mundo's cleaver or Illaoi's tentacle slam let juggernauts have more consistency. I personally think Darius recieves too much compensation for range to the point a ghost darius with 2 solo lane kills before turrets lose plating is essentially an auto FF. Darius is an example of a lack of consistency resulting in a massively varied perception of juggernauts, making his moves more consistent in exchange for power should be the design philosophy moving forward in my opinion
when you made the pokemon analogy, you missed a perfect opportunity to mention ferrothorn: a textbook definition of a juggernaut. low speeed that only thing that can outslow it is munchlax but it has phenomenal defenses, great physical attack and a great defensive typing, only having 2 weaknesses
ive never even thought about it ina turn way but it makes so much sence thx for this video
Also hard to find a middleground since really good adc players will kite well enough to get 1-2 extra "turns" before the bruiser reaches them when bad adcs lose turns instead
Braum: To friends, i am snowflake. To enemies... i am Juggernot
The game with juggernauts isn't about who plays the most precisely and outplays their opponent mechanically. It's about if they get to you or not. They've got mechanics to deal with too but fights as a jug are more akin to pursuits, not duels.
For example, it's not about if "Zed landed a triple E shuriken during his R Mark and teleported perfectly to the furthest shadow, avoiding Lux's Q exploding her and leaving unscathed." It about if "Nasus used ghost, flash, nimbus and celerity to MAYBE position well enough so Vayne's Impale doesn't land him on a wall, and so possibly, using some bushes on the way, he avoids enough autos from her that he manages to get to her to Wither and kill her with an E, auto, Q."
The entire fight in the latter example was about if Vayne could avoid Nasus or not. If the Impale hit a wall, if there weren't some brushes, if Nasus was oom, if he didn't have both of his summoner spells and runes to increase movespeed, if vayne had a Rakan, Nautilus, Leona, Pyke... he would've done probably asolutely nothing no matter how fed he was and would've given a kill to a hyperscaling champion. But, after all of the resources spent, after he managed to get to her, all it took was a single ability rotation to overkill her by 500 health.
The entire fight was decided in the pursuit. Once the fight "started", it had already ended. If it didn't start at all, Vayne wins.
Juggernauts are akin to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu/sambo specialists in MMA. If you go to the ground with them, you're done. You're their playtoy, but the fight starts standing up. As a Striker, if the fight stays on foot, you probably automatically win.
Wonderful video as expected, Vars. On my favourite class, at that. What a delight to see
I think one the design flaws is smash is that fast characters also necessarily have the best combos, since your speed ultimately determines your ability to follow up after a launch. This is IMO the main reason heavies struggle competitively. Shotos, Terry, and Kuzuya, though not strictly heavies, actually fix this problem to an extent, and Snake and Plant can also convert off of hits even with thier short combos thanks to strong advantage and various traps. I hope the design team finds more clever ways to give bulkier characters better reward off of their tough neutral game.
I was thinking on this and I realized that juggernauts fit the "grappler" of fighting games
i liked these comparaison I never thought of it
Juggernauts feel good to play when they get ahead to get their stats to enable their kits. At even once teamfights happen I always feel I don't have much agency
Juggernaut: If you kite they will die.
If you run into them they will be you killiem.
Bruisers dont strike first
Bush Garen: i have a proposal for you
"Burst is always better than DPS."
*And then theres our boi Yone, doing Burst DPS*
As a Mundo Jungle main, nothing compares to the sheer satisfaction from starting the game so weak to running down the enemy ADCs under tower and running out unscathed. I feel these are my favorite champions because of the simplicity they have. I'm not mechanically inclined but i can outwit my opponents and choose my battles wisely enough to obtain that raw power to overwhelm them.
I honestly think Rightous glory should return as a item to help Juggs get in close range.
But jugs can have waaay to much damage at times and also so tanky it feels like attacking Orrn. Imo have items that help their gameplay thematic, but have lower stats on them. So its a trade to make gameplay easier but lacking in raw stats.
They already have access to Deadman's Plate, which makes it near impossible to get away from them.
Shyvana my beloved, you're not only a juggernaut you're also a dragon, I don't need more ; Big tanky dragon
LIke with every class its also player has to make a decision whether to chase down or back off and what to build in what situation. Yes aatrox and Darius can be op, but give them to someone how has no idea what hes doing and he will feed 9 times out of 10
Here why sion is a juggernaut and not just a tank:
-- Sion is a backloaded and not a frontloaded, His Q dmg only high when he charge it up it max at 2s so it backloaded, his W require him to wait 3s before actually deal dmg so it backloaded, sion Ult begin from the moment he press his R so it backloaded since enemies know he's coming bc of global screaming, sion passive is a backloaded since it after he already dead which mean enemies already fight his whole hp bar.
-- Sion main dps is sunfire give him dps on par with any juggernaut dps. His tankiness and shield give him the sustain other juggernaut have with their healing.
-- Sion title is "The undead juggernaut", His name change from "The undead champion" to "The undead juggernaut" after rework. His rework is 1 year before the juggernaut rework so he's the og juggernaut. Thresh title is "The chain warden" and he have every aspect of a warden so sion title as a juggernaut is the base form of what a juggernaut is, bc he's reworked to a juggernaut 1 year earlier than the juggernaut rework itself.
-- Sion CC in a teamfight is as reliable and unreliable as any other juggernaut CC. Like aatrox Q aoe knockup many time, Nasus insane cripple and slow, darius aoe hook, sett aoe hook stun, udyr E stun.
-- Sion is classified as both tank and fighter by official league, Sion is insanely well using actual juggernaut item like titanic, sterak's gage, dead man's plate, Hullbreaker.
I main ADC, the only thing I hate more then juggernauts is Rengar, not assassins just the cat. They’re usually so durable that I can’t deal significant damage before they close the gap and suddenly my HP has magically disappeared
I think that the only thing Juggernauts need at the moment is a small buff to heartbound axe, Darius used to benefit a lot from this item during lane and midgame due to its old passive. Now since you need to strike something to gain the movement speed, if Darius is trying to run down someone in toplane he won't get the benefit of this item by just using Q on a minion wave and getting the movement speed buff. Other than that i think juggernauts are in a nice spot, they don't feel overpowered neither underpowered, they still have issues against most of the meta mages and ADCs (Viktor/Xerath/Anivia/Jinx/Kog/Kai'sa). As a toplane main specifically main Aatrox i really enjoy how the game direction is going, the only 2 offenders lately have been Fiora and Riven, they feel more tanky than most Juggernauts with the added mobility and damage.
What's going on in this video? There is like a white fog over summoner's rift. I really like it.
Link items to classes then it’s easier to balance the item that functions a certain way for that class.