A note about that Super Sonic DLC thing: Let us not forget that, while they did make Super Sonic free after the backlash, the fact still stands that *they tried it.* They actually tried to pull an EA and do on-disc DLC.
For real, I won't forget nor forgive sonic team and Sega for what they tried to pull and get away with Forces, this is why when people say they love this game I don't take any of they're criticism seriously in terms of the boost formula. Never forget the sonic dev interview "dashing like a maniac" that interview is what really destroyed all hope of sonic team officially making a good quality game.
I didn't watch that Sonic Livestream back when forces came out but I find it so funny that Sergio and Aaron were basically warning us about this game as much as they could without getting fired
@@Sydney_Angelyt "My heart goes out to all the Chaos fans." "Practice makes perfect in any action game." "EVEN if they're really linear guys!" "Sonic is taken out by this new threat." "While Tails just stands there doing nothing." They knew and tried to warn us.
Hey that point when you said Forces was built more on Lost World and Colors more than Gens is actually literally true, the game was made using Lost World's code, things like the parkour system are still lying there unusable It's also why the acceleration is shit
@@telekinesticman You could probably reach out to Radfordhound on Twitter, he knows the ins and outs of Forces modding. twitter.com/radfordhound But to give a simple example, the folder structure is the same as in Lost World. In both games, data is stored in the "disk" folder. Inside that you have cpk files that are named after what the game was called in development (sonic2013 for Lost World, wars for Forces). Extracting the cpks and going inside the folder shows the same names for folders ("ui" for UI, "event" for a cutscene, "sound" for audio) and the level names are structured the same way too; w1a01, w1a02, etc. There's way more stuff that makes it obvious that they built Forces on top of Lost World but reach out to Radfordhound for more.
My 13 year old brother finished the game, in simply less than 3 hours. Rarely boosted, rarely spindashed or drop dashed in the entire game. When i asked him on why, he replied: "why would i tho, the game is already giving me springs and dashpads when i need to go fast, i just need to jump and homing attack and im done."
I did a boostless run of the game and the only part of the game I had to boost at was the third act of the final boss. All the double boost sections (except for the last one) were basically cutscenes for me. Some of them I literally set down my controller and watched the game play itself. Also, I wasn't even aware that I could do double jumps and drop dashes.
Man, I knew SEGA wasn't the smartest company in the world when they approved of Sonic 4 episodes 1 and 2 being bland and spring/speedboost heavy, but I didn't know they were THIS ignorant when it came to copying that idea, pasting it to their latest mainline entry, and releasing it alongside Mania.
@@ninjanate5018 I knew it had only three level designers, one of which worked on Lost World, the other two had no experience with level design. I cant say for sure if only three people worked on it in total.
“From the team that brought you Colours and Generations” Expectation: Originality of Colours + Level Design of Generations Reality: Originality of Generations + Level Design of Colours
@Sam Fisher Colours was at least somewhat challenging and you couldn't beat the game by just holding a button down. Forces doesn't have any merit to its level design aside from the occasional serviceable platforming.
I’d honestly like to know what exactly happened behind the scenes with this game. I understand there was a “semi” explanation of a short dev cycle but this feels like a victim of “too much prototyping, not enough developing” I wonder if the Generations gameplay was something decided on a year or so before release because it feels ROUGH Excellent breakdown though :) consider me subscribed
I think it was mostly a case of really poor direction and management overall, since many of the game's concepts were pretty poor from the beginning. And thank you for enjoying the video!
Well I mean they spent like 4 years on the engine and 1 year on the actual game. But looking at the game more I doubt it would've been good even if they had more time
I believe Sonic Boom is at fault. It was money drain - Rise of Lyric was expensive, cartoon was expensive, the income was negative. Sega had to release anything in order to financially recover from this, so they slapped a bunch of prototypes together, taped them with a duck tape and sold as Sonic Forces.
@@Gnidel And its kinda sad too. Because a piss poor remaster of Sonic Colours was made for the 30th anniversary just in place for Sonic Frontiers. Which may or may not suck
Finally someone mentioned dynamic camera angles and spectacle moments in Generations. If Forces really was going for spectacle how come Generations, Colors and Unleashed are better even in that one specific thing?
"...the drop dash, which I hardly used." Dude, I had to use it CONSTANTLY just to cope with how bad classic Sonic's movement feels. It was the only "fun" I could have with those stages. Until I couldn't anymore because the levels were so full of pits. Wait a minute, I just realized something about Omega. You said there's a lot of fanfare for his return even though he's done nothing, but... Don't you see? They're trying to the the whole Sonic 06 thing in that scene. You know, that part in 06 where Omega shoots Mephiles. Infinite is just a worse Mephiles.
Its the same thing with Shadow roundhouse kicking himself… because he did that to Silver in 06. I fucking love how Sonic Forces thinks it can be Sonic 06… but its not even close. Not even on its best day
When you showed Classic Green Hill in Forces and then the same level theme in Generations, I experienced the same kind of feeling you get when you put on your glasses. The entire area is so much crisper and clearer that it honestly looks like Generations came out first.
Spot-on. As a Nintendo-only owner and a huge Sonic fan, I was excited that we might be getting a Generations-esque game. ...But it soon became apparent this game would be awful. I waited until it was dirt-cheap, and even then I felt I overpaid. If there was no continuity with Sonic Mania, I wouldn't have gotten it at all. I should have realized that connection was skin-deep and should have sat out entirely.
Congratulations, you've earned my respect in a single video. Subbed and great video! Let's hope the future holds at least a tad bit more hope than what we have now.
Thank you! Yeah, since Forces is two years old now, it's likely that another 3D Sonic game has been in development for a while now already. Maybe it could come out in 2021 for the 30th anniversary, unless they want to rush something out in 2020 instead.
38:40 Whenever I think about ludocognitive dissonance, Infinite comes to mind. Specifically, I think of that one Game Grumps clip where they make fun of how his voice clips during a battle ("It's entertaining how the weak cling on to life" etc) and his "taking damage" voice clip are a total mishmash. Here's the clip. ruclips.net/video/NCC5b5n1RDs/видео.html
Unfortunately, Sonic Team can be pushed around easily and after the negative reception to Sonic 06, a game that heavily featured those characters and had them playable, Sonic Team of this era was never going to do that.
So what you basically described concerning replacing the custom character is... Replace the custom character with Emerl. Even down to how he would copy other character abilities. You know, now that I say that it could have been interesting to see Gmerl fill that role. After being reprogrammed to peacefully live with Cream, Gmerl can no longer turn a blind eye to seeing the peaceful world Cream loves being taken over by Eggman and joins the resistance. At first he's sluggish, ever since being reprogrammed violence is against his nature, but he starts to adapt and the old functions of Emerl start to shine through, gaining new abilities and customization options. Edit: And that'll teach me to pause and comment before watching everything, since hitting play directly after mentions Emerl XD
6 months late just to say I actually really like the music Sonic Forces, exception being Classic Sonic's music. However this is still the truest critique I've seen of this game. I've bought Sonic Adventure 1 and Adventure 2 multiple times, Generations thrice, I've played Sonic Colors and Sonic Heroes as a child and I even enjoy Sonic Lost World's mess, but I completely refused to buy this game. I only played it once when a friend let me borrowed it and and after it was made free on Playstation Plus because I refused to give them any money for this half ass try of a game. This game killed my hype for the boost gameplay.
Yeah, as someone who loved the fast paced boost gameplay, my favorite Sonic games even being Generations and Unleashed, forces is pure dogshit. The stages are so linear and automated that most the time it barely feels like your putting in any input, and they're so easy there's 0 feeling of accomplishment when you beat a level. But the worst offender to me personally is that the sense of speed is pure GARBAGE. Sonic's supposed to be about going fast but in this game it barely feels like your going fast at all. They had the nerve to release this game for $49.99 when this game should've honestly been
I'm just going to say this instead I don't think the control in any boost game has been good, of course this is my own subjective view point speaking. But really it always felt like Sonic controlled stiffly with limited directional movement simply to favor going in a straight line, while you don't mindlessly boost it trades away platforming control and free movement for a shallow and boxed in straight line. Even if you had the ability to go in different pathways previously you would just get sent into another straight line moments after. The only difference in that made ones like Generations fun was the variety of abilities and that Sonic's control was slightly better, and like you said the dynamic camera movements that made the spectacles fun to observe, so it made controlling him even while boosting more fun. What I liked the most about the most platform focused games like Adventure-2006 (aside from the cast being playable) was that you had control over the character. You could also move at your own pace and not what the game limits you to. Granted 2006 was an exception due to its terrible design (and no I don't mean glitches, which isn't what made it bad I don't know why this is the only thing brought up) and maybe Shadow. Sure games like Advance 3 and Heroes had hit detection issues, but I wouldn't lie and say I get more enjoyment and replay factor from them over any Boost game simply because I like having the more freedom and control of the character. The platforming segments felt more inline with that gameplay style, with the boost gameplay it doesn't feel like it's designed for platforming at all, which makes any platform segment (or 2D) feel stiff and heavy. Every time Sonic jumps he feels like a rock. That's not to say I don't enjoy games with that style (Generations and Unleashed) I just don't like the overall gameplay style as a whole. It feels to restrictive and designed for only one thing. Sonic Forces just emphasized it and stripped away any of the abilities that at least gave the previous ones some variety in abilities cobbled with automated segments through narrow hallways where every level began to feel the same. I can also extend this to the Wisps, who I also feel kill a lot of enjoyment factor in newer games. They've pretty much become "win buttons" in this game or trivialize most obstacles in your way. Like the flame, whip or black hole just killing enemies for you when you aren't like using a single button to hold your hand it's just awful design. I hate how sudden gimmicks of the series have just become a standard for just being a glorified win option. I also agree with you that the Custom character would've faired better with having an Emerl type customizable moveset. It could even encourage replayability or challenge within stages. And should I even mention how poor the story is? See I would do this, but it would take another paragraph and I've already expressed enough issues with this game. I feel your video explains perfectly why this game fails as a product. Sonic Forces? More like Sonic Forces me to take my payment elsewhere.
I totally agree, especially with the controls, it was just that Generations was least not as bad to control as Forces. I would love to see the Adventure style return, that's why I keep fighting for a game like Utopia to be made.
@@telekinesticman that's exactly how i feel about the boost gameplay i want another adventure style game the reason why the adventure games are my favorite sonic games it because of its gameplay in those games i feel like i have more freedom in the stages while in the boost games i i mostly just run through a straight line
Personally I’d love to see the adventure formula come back but with much more polish and entire 3D stages. Slow sonic down and reuse the Mach speed sections for the boost formula. No more 2D sections for modern sonic. I actually really like the boost. His friends definitely need to come back for a variety of play styles. I don’t mind if it’s only sonic, tails, and knuckles as long as they are really polished. Sonic needs to have precise controls for platforming and rewarding gameplay for those who are better able to take advantage of momentum. The boost gauge should just be shortened so it’s not used constantly but rather as a quick way to speed up if you mess up. Sonic should keep the slide and drift in order to conserve momentum in short areas or tight turns
The most disappointing part of the game is BY FAR Modern Sonic for me. If the classic and avatar stages sucked, but the modern stages still had Unleashed and Generations style boost gameplay, I could still tough it out and play for the modern stages like in Unleashed. I don't know how a game series reverts so much in 6 years, but Modern Sonic was a shell of his former self. Worse physics, worse level design, worse boost gameplay, and INCREDIBLY short, pathetic levels.
35:01 I've gotta be real with you. Penders did pretty good with drawing Sally Acorn there. Looks pretty accurate to the Sonic SATAM show, and it actually looks like a good comic panel. Don't know if there's anything else that he's made that compares to that quality.
I don't think that's his art. Also don't know why he showed off those panels. It doesn't really get to the heart of why people are put off by the Penders stories.
8:50 "Clearly (Classic) was thrown into this game, last minute, as an effort to connect further to Sonic Mania..." Rookie was a last minute stand in for Boom Sonic. The plan was to have Classic, Modern and Boom. That's why Classic is from another dimension, why Rookie can double boost, etc... Why did anyone think this was a good idea? They didn't. At Forces conception, people believed Boom was going to be *HUGE.* Everything that came before would be erased. Forces was Sonic Team's last chance to save _their_ Sonic. So, they set out to prove Modern and Boom could coexist; in the most literal way possible. Then Boom bombed and Kishimoto was left holding scraps of a bad idea.
8:44 Wasn't it because since the events of Sonic Generations happened, it split into two timelines where "Classic Sonic" no longer able to experience the events of Sonic Adventure and beyond like the OG Sonic or "Modern Sonic" has? Or if Sonic Generations was even canon to begin with?
I don’t even think they thought of that when they made that decision. Literally the only reason they made classic sonic from another dimension so they can make more classic sonic games.
Remember the portal created by the interaction between the Chaos Emeralds and the Phantom Ruby during Egg Reverie after beating Robotnik and Heavy King? Yeah, I just imagine that portal goes straight to the portal in Encore Mode and skips Forces in it's entirety. I bought Forces (not at full price, even I waited to get it at a discount, which is not good for a game at launch that was still cheaper on the Switch than other titles), completed it in a single afternoon, and still felt ripped off. Instead of taking it back though, I gave it to my nephew, thought i'd get him used to he idea of disappointment at a young age. Useful life lesson right there! 😁 Great video, and i've enjoyed your Mania and Mania Plus critiques. You've jot my sub, I hope too see other Sonic Games (and others franchises) being critiqued by you in the future. I like your critical eye on things.
Literally after i beat the game, i said to myself i had more fun with 06. Forces is so BORING. It's a mess, it tries to be so many things it forgets that it has to be it's own thing. Takashi iizuka said he's trying to take on a new challenge with the 30th anniversary but we'll have to wait and see what he means by that.
What else can you say about this game? The new Hedgehog Engine 2 graphics engine? The Custom Hero system? The presence of multiple characters from the Sonic the Hedgehog cast? Infinite as a villain? Classic Sonic? The whole premise of ROBOTNIK SUCCESSFULLY TAKING OVER THE WORLD? All horribly, criminally wasted. I never again want to see a Sonic game be so incompetently, halfheartedly developed, especially by the hedgehog's parent company. I'd happily take a new Sonic installment that plays like Project Hero, which is an excellent fan game framework. The fluent controls, the on point weight and momentum building potential, the varied character movesets with abilities from throughout the series' history and the advanced enemy A.I. are the things that I look for in this franchise. Concerning the Boost, if it's become such a staple after over 10 years and has to stay, I think they should alter it's functionality. My suggestion? Don't make it a one-button instant-use move, have it only usable through the player's efforts. To get that protective blue energy aura, they should find a way to build up speed with Sonic until it's high enough to make a Sonic Boom. And even then, they would have to maintain that high speed the best they can to stay in "Boost Mode". The difficulty in activating the move would vary depending on the terrain the players are given, ranging from moderately hard to incredibly strenuous.
Brilliant comment although what you said about how the boost should work technically already exists in Sonic Advance 2 and 3. Both games introduced the boost but you had to pick up speed in order to activate it which made going fast in those games so satisfying (less so in Advance 2 since the levels rarely stop the player from going fast a lot of the time). I would certainly say bringing back how it worked in Advance 2 and 3 would be a good step forward (although it's going to take a lot more than boosting to bring the series back on track).
It does, but while the Advance series' version was about maintaining a fast running speed without interruption for a certain period of time, my idea is based more on using slopes and any momentum building methods in Sonic's moveset or his surroundings to max out the speedometer. My version of "Boost Mode" requires not only lots of space to run around, but also enough downward motion to break the in-game sound barrier, so it'd be harder to activate than in the Advance games. It'd make the players work for that sonic boom and earn that damaging Boost aura.
Sonic 06 > Sonic Forces Sonic Forces just looks/feels soulless. At least 06 felt ambitious in it's ideas, but was executed poorly due to rushed development.
Yeah Forces would require an entire remake to make it good. 06 is similar because while the game is glitchy, the actual game design is pretty terrible too, but most fan-remakes are attempting to address things like this to improve the game. Also, so far none of them have included the terrible hub worlds and side missions, so that helps streamline 06 even more. Forces is already incredibly streamlined, but yes the level design would need to be completely remade in order for the game to be good.
One of the best reviews of a genuinely bad sonic game. Easy like. Looks like Sonic Adventure 2 still stays as my favourite 3D Sonic game yet again. (sigh) This was such a disappointment.
I feel u man. My favorite is generations and to see after so many years a new sonic game still cant rival what i love about it is just annoying. And depressing..
British Media Bully true especially when i pre ordered forces really hoping segas apology they made long ago was legitimate about them making sub par games and wanting to make sonic great again. I sure learned my lesson huh
I haven't followed Sega proper for quite a while. The last time I paid any proper attention was when I managed to collect more than 30 Sega Master System games.
If Sonic was the only one not captured and he's trying to take on a world that's falling apart it would give a reason for the oc to be there. The main theme song is coming from Sonic perspective and he explains how this partnership was needed and how he apreciates it but it doesn't make sense since Sonic can carry his own just fine, like when he escaped the Death Egg. That's the thing about Sonic he likes working together but he can still get by even if he doesn't have help most of the time. I rather opt out on the oc concept because if Sonic was the only one standing that would him that much more of a underdog and his victory more triumphant.
I appreciate sonic forces cause it got me into sonic games i was a fortnite player and i was so bored i tried to check out sonic forces and welp here i am not alot of people are gonna appreciate it but i will always remember it
15:23 feels like they didn't have good ideas so they made boring fast-paced straight lines as level designs and they knew that they were uninspiring as fuck so their excuse is like "um uh yea it's on purpose! We wanted to give you easier time so we didn't create clever level designs like other games these days! It's all about non-stop action baby!" Tho while playing the game, it does seem like it was build around what they say without actually trying to make it sound intentional in the promotional videos, because it IS intentional. I dunno which of these 2 scenarios I believe more, but both are really bad anyway so it doesn't really matter.
I know that music is subjective. But I did like the music of forces, yeah some songs suck (all of classic Sonics music) but I did like park avenue, luminous forest, egg gate, imperial tower, death egg phase 3 theme, and the song that played in the credits
If you’ve ever seen the devs for Sonic Utopia explain how Sonic should play in the 3rd Dimension/in 3D games I would highly recommend it. Honestly it’s how Sonic can be revitalized and reimagined. Honestly I’m not a crazy sonic fan. I just like him. But learning about game design is real interesting. Just something I think you should check out.
Sonic Forces is truly a Bland and Boring game, and that what makes it the worse Sonic games. I have no idea what the Team was thinking when they were making this.
Look. Video games are not easy to make. Never mind the fact that Sonic Team was left with three. THREE PEOPLE to make the game, it’s a miracle it didn’t end up worse than 06. Forces ended up the way it did because Sonic Team didn’t have enough time. SEGA made them rush because they KNEW the fans were about to riot if they didn’t release Forces by early November. So, in summary, *YOU HAVE NO ONE ELSE TO BLAME BUT YOURSELVES FOR HAVING NO PATIENCE*
it's sad when the Sonic Movie is better than this series that has been around for years is at establishing what planet the story takes place, here they never flat out say if it's Mobius or earth, or if Mobius is on earth or an island or if the planet has always been Mobius or Earth (which makes the presence of Little Planet and the lost Hex make no sense since if it is earth then it makes no sense, but if it is Mobius, why are there all these humans? how did eggman get here? if it is 2 seperate worlds? then Why is Eggman here? what does Gerald Robotnik mean to anything?! The Sonic movie easily states that Sonic is from Mobius and escaped to Earth, here, they never explain where the hell we are.
I completely agree with everything in the video, and I see what you mean by everything. But I've seen people struggle with this game. I've seen people just barely beat Sunset Heights in under 5 minutes, with probably a lot of deaths. I think the reason this game is flawed, is because they didn't want you to play it. But that's pretty fucking stupid lmfao
44:46 Hate to break it to ya, Tele, but Generations is not a 3D Sonic game. It's got 50% Classic Sonic, which is 100% 2D and 50% Modern Sonic which is more than 50% 2D which means, overall, it's a 2D Sonic game. Same goes for Colors, Same goes for Forces. Don't get me wrong: Generations is great! It's my favorite Boost-Era Sonic game, *but it ain't 3D, Chief.*
I getcha, and I do mostly agree. It's mostly 2D and I think I address that in the video, but in terms of the released Sonic games that at least have 3D in them, it's my favourite, I suppose.
One thing I don't like about Forces, is the majority of the game is in 2D! If I wanted to play 2D sonic, I'd play Mania. Personally, I want a Adventures type Of Sonic game, with the Boost Formula
16:15 it really isn’t mostly the same, no drift, air boost is just dumb you can basically fly now. I don’t really like it cause before it was a risk and reward thing, you have a powerful air dash but you can’t really control it once cast, so you have to use it carefully and sinergize it with your stomp. Like the dive in Mario 64. No air homing attack to help you platform, replaced with a useless double jump.you said it before. But yeah it’s really fucking dumb to think that just “dashing like a maniac” is fun
I do agree that maybe the air boost is a little TOO powerful, but even if it was shorter I'd still prefer it to the old one. I like the way Sonic flips forward and arcs smoothly downwards, instead of the incredibly brief and difficult-to-control air boost from Unleashed/Generations.
I agree with most of this video... except for the music. While I pretty much hate most of Classic Sonic's tracks, the EDM/dubstep of the Avatar gives me the nostalgic vibe of an old Sonic AMV from the late 2000s, and Modern Sonic's tracks are just good Sonic songs
Then using the term "dimension" was still not the way to go. There's already a character from another dimension - Blaze.. who was absent in this game, by the way. Blaze's dimension (Sol Dimension) is parallel to Sonic's world/dimension that we all know. Classic Sonic is simply a "younger" version of the main timeline's Sonic (Modern Sonic), but the timelines seemingly split during the events of Sonic Generations. The Modern Sonic we know never went through the events of Sonic Mania whereas Classic Sonic obviously did, in fact that's why he shows up again in Sonic Forces. Being from a separate timeline is not at all the same as being from a different dimension.
The funny thing is, I wasn't even aware this game existed until it became free on PS Plus. And I'm a Sonic fan, albeit not as much involved as a typical fan, but I just never heard anything about this game. Boom really did a number on the series for me I suppose.
Today is the 5th anniversary of forces, it still sucks and it will always suck. I agree with pretty much all of your criticisms of this game, I played this when I had PS NOW on my PS4 and it was such a draining experience for me, with the bland levels, terrible boss fights, and a shitty soundtrack. I’m really glad you mentioned how bad the soundtrack is in particular, it actively harms the experience further for me, ESPECIALLY the green hill zone theme. Story was laughably bad for me so I didn’t mind too much, there’s a certain charm at laughing at its ridiculousness. Your idea of the avatar being a robot seems really cool btw, it would’ve lead to something more interesting than what we got. I wonder, what do you think of Frontiers from what you have seen? I hear positive things about it, and there are a decent amount of things that appeal to me enough for me to want to purchase it (will probably see more footage first), but the fact that it sounds like just a “blueprint for a truly great sequel” instead of a great game on its own is so disappointing.
I think Frontiers looks incredibly bland and messy, and even the positive reviews are confirming that for me. It's just Forces level design slapped into an open world.
@@telekinesticman Yeaaah that’s completely fair. It’s so weird to me how the reception did a sudden 180 from “this game looks like shit” to “This game is massive peak sonic”, like to me it looks fun enough to play around with but I don’t think much has changed from the first reveal to now.
Do people know what "angsting" means anymore? Shadow doesn't really act that different from his dark age era persona I'd say it's probably one of the more decent portrayls of the character in this era. I mean they at least showed his Team Dark bonds a little bit
@Wynn Wilson yes but modern shadow doesn't act like that in THIS game he protects Sonic from his clone and speaks with him amicibaly through the game, he gets a little cocky in his prologue story but Shadow SHOULD be a little cocky he's the ultimate life form the problem was always going way yo far with it which I dint think he does in this game. Forces story and writing sucks I just don't think Shadow was a major issue here
Finally someone that agrees, that Sonic Forces feels more like a Sonic colors successor than a gens one. Personally, I find speedrunning the game fairly enjoyable due to its very low bar of entry, most of the tricks also skip mpst of the automation which instantly makes the game 100 times better. Also, apparently many newcomers due to the series actually enjoy the game because every other Sonic game is too hard for them (which makes sense since Sonic games are pretty much acquired taste, since they require a specific mindset to properly enjoy). I am also on those people who actually like the ost, I don't think that its better than other modern game titles, but many tracks got stuck in my head when I first played it. Some remixes of the OST by artists like Lil boulder that use better instruments are really good.
I feel like serious melodrama could work in Sonic but it needs good writing, good voice acting and good cutscenes, nothing of those Forces has. Funnily enough, Rise of Lyric *almost* makes it work? I'm not talking about in-game dialog, the prerendered cutscenes in that game aren't too overly serious, all the characters are wonderfully animated, when serious moments happen they try to pack a punch, the voice acting (even Roger Craig Smith) is some of the best in the franchise... but it's also sadly inside a game that plays like a Lego game most of the time and the in-game dialog that constantly repeats itself makes it look really bad. I disagree with serious moments needing irony or funny moments balancing it out, it seems like IDW Sonic doesn't really need that, the current Sonic thing with good writing... Otherwise, I completely agree with what you had to say in the video. Speaking of Rise of Lyric, that Forces gear platforming thingy... I'd argue that that gear level in Rise of Lyric is conceptually really cool and Forces made it really boring. In Rise of Lyric, you're going from like a factory environment where you have a timelimit to save Tails, to hopping on gears and activating switches to progress and then finally climbing a giant robot-filled construction site that's building a giant robot that will be a threat to Sonic's world if the not-chaos emeralds go into the wrong hands. Oh, and it has some branching pathways here and there. That's so imaginative and cool... Now compare that to Forces where it's just a factory that makes "everyone's made to work like robots", I have no idea what Sonic even meant with that. There's plenty more really big potential Rise of Lyric had and it's such a shame it never really got fully realized, especially where gameplay's concerned. You did mention that Forces runs on the Hedgehog Engine 2 but... Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games - Tokyo 2020 runs on Hedgehog Engine 2 as well. It also has Metropolitan Highway in it as a Sonic Riders-esque Dream Event but it looks great there, because they tweaked the level to actually look good. ruclips.net/video/oyj-iiGCm1M/видео.html The new Sakura Wars game also runs on Hedgehog Engine 2, btw. The reason Forces looks really bad is definitely because of the awful art direction...
To be clear in terms of the writing, I don't mean that I want serious moments to be undercut with jokes like in Marvel movies, but that's always incredibly annoying (and another reason why I honestly really hate Marvel movies). What I mean is more that the tone needs to be balanced somewhat, so it doesn't get TOO dark and serious like Shadow, 06 etc. I hope that makes sense. That level in the Olympics certainly does look better, but still from artistic changes, I think. They added green lights and other stage decorations that make it pop a bit more, but yeah, Hedgehog Engine 2 was wasted with Forces.
@@telekinesticman Ah, I get it now. Hm, I feel like Shadow and 06 aren't that dark but they really suck at setting the mood with their cutscene animations and voice acting, you just can't take them serious that way at all and Sonic Forces has that problem too. But yeah, now it makes what you've said, thanks!
I do agree that a open world game would be a good idea. We all know it would be a risk but it would mean that they would put their all into it. And if this ever became a thing and if it was a success or not at least they put all their passion into one last project
I found parts of the Avatar's soundtrack to be actually nice, but that's coming from someone who loves Drum & Bass, that synth-heavy "dududududu" you criticized. And to be fair, you have a strong point there, but the right DnB will fit right at home with Sonic, if you ask me. Energetic and fast paced. Note that I've not said anything about the lyrics. That's because... after Forces' forced lyrics, I'll only accept instrumentals.
'06 geniunely felt like a better game than this mess. That game was so bad it was amusing to see how crappy the story and voice acting was. Forces was so goddamn bland and uninteresting I was glad when it ended (which should be the other way around). And I say that's something much worse
In regards to the "so this is where eggman built infinite" basically in a early draft of the story, in the first one in fact, infinite was originally a creature created by eggman, but during the many story rewrites that ended up changing, the fact this original part of the plot somehow ended up in the final game, just show how rushed development of the game was.
Between the custom avatar character, the weird ass missions and daily missions, Infinite being stupidly similar to Persona, and damn near charging real world money for Super Sonic, it's like SEGA completely ignored all criticisms of recent Sonic games, looked at the success of their Phantasy Star Online 2, and were like, "yep".
I do not care what Sega decides to do for the next 3D Sonic game. I literally do not care at all. As long as the next game what's fun to control, has good level design, and had an, at the very least presentable story, then I'd be okay with it.
for the loops, even in the early 3d titles they had a purpose, as some sort of quick break from the action packed platforming, but when the entire stage is playing itself they have no point
If anybody wants to experience the best of this game. Get to Modern Sonics Sunset heights then dip. The story just gets infuriating from there on out. The very start of the game is the most interesting. Its like the more I play the worse the game gets.
Also something about Metropolis and that tower that really bugs me is how they look like Wily fortresses and not Eggman bases. You're telling me that the guy who built a giant death ball with HIS OWN FACE on it and redecorated an ancient pyramid with HIS HEAD plastered everywhere would build such a generic looking futuristic base. Speaking of the pyramid levels from SA2, when I saw that this game had a pyramid I went "Oh nice reference! I wonder what they'll do with it?". Well, nothing. Just compare the interiors, one could not be the hideout of anyone but the one and only Dr. Robotnik while the other is just... a villain's base. Sorry if you've already said this in the video, I'm typing this around halfway through.
I share my thoughts with you 100%. The worst part of Forces, besides the gameplay, bland graphics, and wasted story, is the disappointing soundtrack. Sonic games are famous for always getting the music right, no matter what, but now that they ruined the one consistent thing they had, how can I ever trust Sega with anything Sonic again?
Honestly my expectations are pretty low for whatever the next game is, but I want it to be something good. It's a shame I'm not really excited for Sonic games anymore because I just can't trust that I won't get disappointed.
The worst part of the super sonic for me, is that if i remember correctly it's literally just invulnerability and infinite boost, that's it, you don't get a higher jump height, you don't get a increased speed cap or anything like that, it's one of the most lazy super sonics ever made in a mainline sonic game.
Speaking of sonic 4, I remember seeing the title screen (a picture of it) and thought this is obviously fake. Years later I saw a RUclips video about it and was surprised that this crappy PNG picture was official lmhoo
I purchased the game day 1 With my ex girlfriends money cause she forgot that she left the info for a prepaid PS4 card in our Discord chats together :^) So no regrets I guess
Community treated Forces as if it came out right after Generations. LIke it wasn't 5 years after Generations and 4 years after SLW and 3 years after Boom and there was never a real threat for the franchise to literally become a chain of SLW/Boom sequels for the next 10-15 years. For me it was a huge relief.
A note about that Super Sonic DLC thing:
Let us not forget that, while they did make Super Sonic free after the backlash, the fact still stands that *they tried it.* They actually tried to pull an EA and do on-disc DLC.
For real, I won't forget nor forgive sonic team and Sega for what they tried to pull and get away with Forces, this is why when people say they love this game I don't take any of they're criticism seriously in terms of the boost formula. Never forget the sonic dev interview "dashing like a maniac" that interview is what really destroyed all hope of sonic team officially making a good quality game.
So, Sonic team is the new EA?
I can’t believe that they didn’t include super Sonic fight for the final battle. Instead they just recycled the same crap from colors and lost worlds.
The super sonic dlc wasnt even that special or add anything new to the game at all. All it did was give you unlimited boost
Tell atlus too
I mean... Classic Sonic's voice actor did a REALLY GOOD job.
🤣
@@derple8524 😂🤣🤣🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣😂😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣😂😶
Yeah, they really put a lot of emotion into "..."
Yeah, it's a real shame SEGA of America censored him. I guess they felt western audiences weren't ready for such biting political commentary yet.
I didn't watch that Sonic Livestream back when forces came out but I find it so funny that Sergio and Aaron were basically warning us about this game as much as they could without getting fired
@@Sydney_Angelyt I dunno man this comment is like 2 years old now
Who are you talking about?
@@Sydney_Angelyt "My heart goes out to all the Chaos fans."
"Practice makes perfect in any action game." "EVEN if they're really linear guys!"
"Sonic is taken out by this new threat." "While Tails just stands there doing nothing."
They knew and tried to warn us.
@@charmyzardyeah don't know how I missed that the first time. Must've been distracted.
aaron’s script notes make me cry
Hey that point when you said Forces was built more on Lost World and Colors more than Gens is actually literally true, the game was made using Lost World's code, things like the parkour system are still lying there unusable
It's also why the acceleration is shit
Oh really? Do you have any sources because that's super interesting, although it doesn't surprise me much either.
@@telekinesticman Yeah modders looked at the movement code and it's all copied from Lost World
@@seymourkrelborn4780 oh god really. Wow this game is such a mess.
@@telekinesticman You could probably reach out to Radfordhound on Twitter, he knows the ins and outs of Forces modding.
twitter.com/radfordhound
But to give a simple example, the folder structure is the same as in Lost World. In both games, data is stored in the "disk" folder. Inside that you have cpk files that are named after what the game was called in development (sonic2013 for Lost World, wars for Forces). Extracting the cpks and going inside the folder shows the same names for folders ("ui" for UI, "event" for a cutscene, "sound" for audio) and the level names are structured the same way too; w1a01, w1a02, etc.
There's way more stuff that makes it obvious that they built Forces on top of Lost World but reach out to Radfordhound for more.
TelekinesticMan yeah pretty much sonic forces was built on sonic lost worlds engine instead of gens
I found Forces so boring, I enjoyed '06 more for the good action stage design and the comedic brokenness
Same here.
i enjoyed 06 because it was fun
I liked forces
Me too. 06 is way more enjoyable than forces.
@Mihnea Bărbulescu I agree completely
My 13 year old brother finished the game, in simply less than 3 hours. Rarely boosted, rarely spindashed or drop dashed in the entire game. When i asked him on why, he replied: "why would i tho, the game is already giving me springs and dashpads when i need to go fast, i just need to jump and homing attack and im done."
definitely agree with him
I did a boostless run of the game and the only part of the game I had to boost at was the third act of the final boss. All the double boost sections (except for the last one) were basically cutscenes for me. Some of them I literally set down my controller and watched the game play itself. Also, I wasn't even aware that I could do double jumps and drop dashes.
Man, I knew SEGA wasn't the smartest company in the world when they approved of Sonic 4 episodes 1 and 2 being bland and spring/speedboost heavy, but I didn't know they were THIS ignorant when it came to copying that idea, pasting it to their latest mainline entry, and releasing it alongside Mania.
@@NyctobloomCreations4658 Forces had THREE people work on the game. THREE PEOPLE.
@@ninjanate5018 I knew it had only three level designers, one of which worked on Lost World, the other two had no experience with level design. I cant say for sure if only three people worked on it in total.
“From the team that brought you Colours and Generations”
Expectation: Originality of Colours + Level Design of Generations
Reality: Originality of Generations + Level Design of Colours
Even Colours has better level design and,,,,, actual gameplay.
@@ultrairrelevantnobody1862 no it doesn't, colors is fucking dog shit just like forces
@Sam Fisher
Colours was at least somewhat challenging and you couldn't beat the game by just holding a button down. Forces doesn't have any merit to its level design aside from the occasional serviceable platforming.
@@ultrairrelevantnobody1862 Colors challenging are you on drugs, it's laughable easy
I said somewhat challenging and if not, then at least in comparison.
I’d honestly like to know what exactly happened behind the scenes with this game. I understand there was a “semi” explanation of a short dev cycle but this feels like a victim of “too much prototyping, not enough developing”
I wonder if the Generations gameplay was something decided on a year or so before release because it feels ROUGH
Excellent breakdown though :) consider me subscribed
I think it was mostly a case of really poor direction and management overall, since many of the game's concepts were pretty poor from the beginning. And thank you for enjoying the video!
Well I mean they spent like 4 years on the engine and 1 year on the actual game. But looking at the game more I doubt it would've been good even if they had more time
I believe Sonic Boom is at fault. It was money drain - Rise of Lyric was expensive, cartoon was expensive, the income was negative. Sega had to release anything in order to financially recover from this, so they slapped a bunch of prototypes together, taped them with a duck tape and sold as Sonic Forces.
@@Gnidel And its kinda sad too. Because a piss poor remaster of Sonic Colours was made for the 30th anniversary just in place for Sonic Frontiers. Which may or may not suck
Finally someone mentioned dynamic camera angles and spectacle moments in Generations. If Forces really was going for spectacle how come Generations, Colors and Unleashed are better even in that one specific thing?
especially considering that unleashed is objectively the best looking sonic game currently. (I don't care that this is from 1 year ago)
"...the drop dash, which I hardly used."
Dude, I had to use it CONSTANTLY just to cope with how bad classic Sonic's movement feels. It was the only "fun" I could have with those stages. Until I couldn't anymore because the levels were so full of pits.
Wait a minute, I just realized something about Omega. You said there's a lot of fanfare for his return even though he's done nothing, but... Don't you see? They're trying to the the whole Sonic 06 thing in that scene. You know, that part in 06 where Omega shoots Mephiles. Infinite is just a worse Mephiles.
I did not know you could do a drop dash when I played the game.
Its the same thing with Shadow roundhouse kicking himself… because he did that to Silver in 06.
I fucking love how Sonic Forces thinks it can be Sonic 06… but its not even close. Not even on its best day
When you showed Classic Green Hill in Forces and then the same level theme in Generations, I experienced the same kind of feeling you get when you put on your glasses. The entire area is so much crisper and clearer that it honestly looks like Generations came out first.
Generations did come out first, you mean Forces?
Spot-on. As a Nintendo-only owner and a huge Sonic fan, I was excited that we might be getting a Generations-esque game. ...But it soon became apparent this game would be awful. I waited until it was dirt-cheap, and even then I felt I overpaid. If there was no continuity with Sonic Mania, I wouldn't have gotten it at all. I should have realized that connection was skin-deep and should have sat out entirely.
Congratulations, you've earned my respect in a single video. Subbed and great video! Let's hope the future holds at least a tad bit more hope than what we have now.
Thank you! Yeah, since Forces is two years old now, it's likely that another 3D Sonic game has been in development for a while now already. Maybe it could come out in 2021 for the 30th anniversary, unless they want to rush something out in 2020 instead.
@@telekinesticman Izuka said 2021 is the next big year for Sonic, so I'm betting on a game then. I'm praying they've learned
38:40
Whenever I think about ludocognitive dissonance, Infinite comes to mind. Specifically, I think of that one Game Grumps clip where they make fun of how his voice clips during a battle ("It's entertaining how the weak cling on to life" etc) and his "taking damage" voice clip are a total mishmash. Here's the clip.
ruclips.net/video/NCC5b5n1RDs/видео.html
When I think of Infinite, I think of him as
Edge without substance.
Sonic Forces, more like
*_Sonic Forces you to contemplate your life decisions_*
Imo, this game should of been about Shadow, Tails, Silver, and Knuckles, and the resistance.
Unfortunately, Sonic Team can be pushed around easily and after the negative reception to Sonic 06, a game that heavily featured those characters and had them playable, Sonic Team of this era was never going to do that.
So what you basically described concerning replacing the custom character is... Replace the custom character with Emerl. Even down to how he would copy other character abilities.
You know, now that I say that it could have been interesting to see Gmerl fill that role. After being reprogrammed to peacefully live with Cream, Gmerl can no longer turn a blind eye to seeing the peaceful world Cream loves being taken over by Eggman and joins the resistance. At first he's sluggish, ever since being reprogrammed violence is against his nature, but he starts to adapt and the old functions of Emerl start to shine through, gaining new abilities and customization options.
Edit: And that'll teach me to pause and comment before watching everything, since hitting play directly after mentions Emerl XD
6 months late just to say I actually really like the music Sonic Forces, exception being Classic Sonic's music.
However this is still the truest critique I've seen of this game. I've bought Sonic Adventure 1 and Adventure 2 multiple times, Generations thrice, I've played Sonic Colors and Sonic Heroes as a child and I even enjoy Sonic Lost World's mess, but I completely refused to buy this game. I only played it once when a friend let me borrowed it and and after it was made free on Playstation Plus because I refused to give them any money for this half ass try of a game.
This game killed my hype for the boost gameplay.
Yeah, as someone who loved the fast paced boost gameplay, my favorite Sonic games even being Generations and Unleashed, forces is pure dogshit.
The stages are so linear and automated that most the time it barely feels like your putting in any input, and they're so easy there's 0 feeling of accomplishment when you beat a level. But the worst offender to me personally is that the sense of speed is pure GARBAGE. Sonic's supposed to be about going fast but in this game it barely feels like your going fast at all.
They had the nerve to release this game for $49.99 when this game should've honestly been
Ditto on the music.
Modern Sonic's and especially the Avatars, I really like.
Classic Sonic's, I couldn't listen to twice.
I'm just going to say this instead I don't think the control in any boost game has been good, of course this is my own subjective view point speaking. But really it always felt like Sonic controlled stiffly with limited directional movement simply to favor going in a straight line, while you don't mindlessly boost it trades away platforming control and free movement for a shallow and boxed in straight line. Even if you had the ability to go in different pathways previously you would just get sent into another straight line moments after.
The only difference in that made ones like Generations fun was the variety of abilities and that Sonic's control was slightly better, and like you said the dynamic camera movements that made the spectacles fun to observe, so it made controlling him even while boosting more fun. What I liked the most about the most platform focused games like Adventure-2006 (aside from the cast being playable) was that you had control over the character. You could also move at your own pace and not what the game limits you to. Granted 2006 was an exception due to its terrible design (and no I don't mean glitches, which isn't what made it bad I don't know why this is the only thing brought up) and maybe Shadow.
Sure games like Advance 3 and Heroes had hit detection issues, but I wouldn't lie and say I get more enjoyment and replay factor from them over any Boost game simply because I like having the more freedom and control of the character. The platforming segments felt more inline with that gameplay style, with the boost gameplay it doesn't feel like it's designed for platforming at all, which makes any platform segment (or 2D) feel stiff and heavy.
Every time Sonic jumps he feels like a rock. That's not to say I don't enjoy games with that style (Generations and Unleashed) I just don't like the overall gameplay style as a whole. It feels to restrictive and designed for only one thing. Sonic Forces just emphasized it and stripped away any of the abilities that at least gave the previous ones some variety in abilities cobbled with automated segments through narrow hallways where every level began to feel the same.
I can also extend this to the Wisps, who I also feel kill a lot of enjoyment factor in newer games. They've pretty much become "win buttons" in this game or trivialize most obstacles in your way. Like the flame, whip or black hole just killing enemies for you when you aren't like using a single button to hold your hand it's just awful design. I hate how sudden gimmicks of the series have just become a standard for just being a glorified win option. I also agree with you that the Custom character would've faired better with having an Emerl type customizable moveset. It could even encourage replayability or challenge within stages.
And should I even mention how poor the story is? See I would do this, but it would take another paragraph and I've already expressed enough issues with this game. I feel your video explains perfectly why this game fails as a product.
Sonic Forces? More like Sonic Forces me to take my payment elsewhere.
I totally agree, especially with the controls, it was just that Generations was least not as bad to control as Forces. I would love to see the Adventure style return, that's why I keep fighting for a game like Utopia to be made.
@@telekinesticman that's exactly how i feel about the boost gameplay i want another adventure style game the reason why the adventure games are my favorite sonic games it because of its gameplay in those games i feel like i have more freedom in the stages while in the boost games i i mostly just run through a straight line
that re-formed badnik being the avatar character is GENIUS
Personally I’d love to see the adventure formula come back but with much more polish and entire 3D stages. Slow sonic down and reuse the Mach speed sections for the boost formula. No more 2D sections for modern sonic. I actually really like the boost. His friends definitely need to come back for a variety of play styles. I don’t mind if it’s only sonic, tails, and knuckles as long as they are really polished. Sonic needs to have precise controls for platforming and rewarding gameplay for those who are better able to take advantage of momentum. The boost gauge should just be shortened so it’s not used constantly but rather as a quick way to speed up if you mess up. Sonic should keep the slide and drift in order to conserve momentum in short areas or tight turns
The most disappointing part of the game is BY FAR Modern Sonic for me. If the classic and avatar stages sucked, but the modern stages still had Unleashed and Generations style boost gameplay, I could still tough it out and play for the modern stages like in Unleashed. I don't know how a game series reverts so much in 6 years, but Modern Sonic was a shell of his former self. Worse physics, worse level design, worse boost gameplay, and INCREDIBLY short, pathetic levels.
they should've made 7-10 levels from these levels by just making 2 big levels for each world and a boss at the end
*Zone not World.
I literally had to close the video at the interview. It should have been so obvious this entire time and it makes me sick.
I know, it was soo fucking cringy.
Dude, I LOVE the Ian Flynn comics. I wish the games were more like them.
35:01
I've gotta be real with you. Penders did pretty good with drawing Sally Acorn there. Looks pretty accurate to the Sonic SATAM show, and it actually looks like a good comic panel.
Don't know if there's anything else that he's made that compares to that quality.
I don't think that's his art. Also don't know why he showed off those panels. It doesn't really get to the heart of why people are put off by the Penders stories.
8:50 "Clearly (Classic) was thrown into this game, last minute, as an effort to connect further to Sonic Mania..."
Rookie was a last minute stand in for Boom Sonic. The plan was to have Classic, Modern and Boom. That's why Classic is from another dimension, why Rookie can double boost, etc...
Why did anyone think this was a good idea? They didn't. At Forces conception, people believed Boom was going to be *HUGE.* Everything that came before would be erased. Forces was Sonic Team's last chance to save _their_ Sonic. So, they set out to prove Modern and Boom could coexist; in the most literal way possible. Then Boom bombed and Kishimoto was left holding scraps of a bad idea.
This makes too much sense.
8:44 Wasn't it because since the events of Sonic Generations happened, it split into two timelines where "Classic Sonic" no longer able to experience the events of Sonic Adventure and beyond like the OG Sonic or "Modern Sonic" has? Or if Sonic Generations was even canon to begin with?
I don’t even think they thought of that when they made that decision. Literally the only reason they made classic sonic from another dimension so they can make more classic sonic games.
Classic Sonic being from a separate timeline or being from a different dimension are not the same thing, so they definitely screwed that up.
If that's true then how did tails know that?
36:28 Okay that was a good laugh.
Also this is a great retrospective.
Remember the portal created by the interaction between the Chaos Emeralds and the Phantom Ruby during Egg Reverie after beating Robotnik and Heavy King? Yeah, I just imagine that portal goes straight to the portal in Encore Mode and skips Forces in it's entirety. I bought Forces (not at full price, even I waited to get it at a discount, which is not good for a game at launch that was still cheaper on the Switch than other titles), completed it in a single afternoon, and still felt ripped off. Instead of taking it back though, I gave it to my nephew, thought i'd get him used to he idea of disappointment at a young age. Useful life lesson right there! 😁
Great video, and i've enjoyed your Mania and Mania Plus critiques. You've jot my sub, I hope too see other Sonic Games (and others franchises) being critiqued by you in the future. I like your critical eye on things.
Literally after i beat the game, i said to myself i had more fun with 06. Forces is so BORING. It's a mess, it tries to be so many things it forgets that it has to be it's own thing. Takashi iizuka said he's trying to take on a new challenge with the 30th anniversary but we'll have to wait and see what he means by that.
11:31 It was at this point that I realized you were talking about Emerl.
What else can you say about this game? The new Hedgehog Engine 2 graphics engine? The Custom Hero system? The presence of multiple characters from the Sonic the Hedgehog cast? Infinite as a villain? Classic Sonic? The whole premise of ROBOTNIK SUCCESSFULLY TAKING OVER THE WORLD? All horribly, criminally wasted. I never again want to see a Sonic game be so incompetently, halfheartedly developed, especially by the hedgehog's parent company.
I'd happily take a new Sonic installment that plays like Project Hero, which is an excellent fan game framework. The fluent controls, the on point weight and momentum building potential, the varied character movesets with abilities from throughout the series' history and the advanced enemy A.I. are the things that I look for in this franchise. Concerning the Boost, if it's become such a staple after over 10 years and has to stay, I think they should alter it's functionality. My suggestion? Don't make it a one-button instant-use move, have it only usable through the player's efforts. To get that protective blue energy aura, they should find a way to build up speed with Sonic until it's high enough to make a Sonic Boom. And even then, they would have to maintain that high speed the best they can to stay in "Boost Mode". The difficulty in activating the move would vary depending on the terrain the players are given, ranging from moderately hard to incredibly strenuous.
Brilliant comment although what you said about how the boost should work technically already exists in Sonic Advance 2 and 3. Both games introduced the boost but you had to pick up speed in order to activate it which made going fast in those games so satisfying (less so in Advance 2 since the levels rarely stop the player from going fast a lot of the time). I would certainly say bringing back how it worked in Advance 2 and 3 would be a good step forward (although it's going to take a lot more than boosting to bring the series back on track).
It does, but while the Advance series' version was about maintaining a fast running speed without interruption for a certain period of time, my idea is based more on using slopes and any momentum building methods in Sonic's moveset or his surroundings to max out the speedometer. My version of "Boost Mode" requires not only lots of space to run around, but also enough downward motion to break the in-game sound barrier, so it'd be harder to activate than in the Advance games. It'd make the players work for that sonic boom and earn that damaging Boost aura.
Ah! I like that. I see where you're coming from now.
KingRaikou or just a boost that gains more velocity and speed the longer you maintain it gaining access to new paths to explore or items in a stage
So.. Make the boost like sonic advance 2?
4 years later and I'm still surprised this isn't your most popular video to date
Sonic 06 > Sonic Forces
Sonic Forces just looks/feels soulless. At least 06 felt ambitious in it's ideas, but was executed poorly due to rushed development.
Master Vidxad 58 if you look at the fan made PC fixes the game has seen recently you can see how much better the game is
@@crestofhonor2349
Just wait until they release the fan made remake of Forces. That'll be even better than the 06 one.
@@TripleJump How? Forces isn't broken its level design just sucks
Yeah Forces would require an entire remake to make it good. 06 is similar because while the game is glitchy, the actual game design is pretty terrible too, but most fan-remakes are attempting to address things like this to improve the game. Also, so far none of them have included the terrible hub worlds and side missions, so that helps streamline 06 even more. Forces is already incredibly streamlined, but yes the level design would need to be completely remade in order for the game to be good.
I think if they manage to port forces stages to the generations engine, it would at least feel much better to navigate the stages
That speed up ability for some wispons is actually extremely useful for speedruns
One of the best reviews of a genuinely bad sonic game. Easy like.
Looks like Sonic Adventure 2 still stays as my favourite 3D Sonic game yet again. (sigh) This was such a disappointment.
I haven't really played Enter The Dragonfly proper, and I have no intention of doing so.
I feel u man. My favorite is generations and to see after so many years a new sonic game still cant rival what i love about it is just annoying. And depressing..
I wouldn't say depressing. Rather it's heavily disappointing.
British Media Bully true especially when i pre ordered forces really hoping segas apology they made long ago was legitimate about them making sub par games and wanting to make sonic great again. I sure learned my lesson huh
I haven't followed Sega proper for quite a while. The last time I paid any proper attention was when I managed to collect more than 30 Sega Master System games.
If Sonic was the only one not captured and he's trying to take on a world that's falling apart it would give a reason for the oc to be there. The main theme song is coming from Sonic perspective and he explains how this partnership was needed and how he apreciates it but it doesn't make sense since Sonic can carry his own just fine, like when he escaped the Death Egg. That's the thing about Sonic he likes working together but he can still get by even if he doesn't have help most of the time. I rather opt out on the oc concept because if Sonic was the only one standing that would him that much more of a underdog and his victory more triumphant.
33:15 I think that sega paid to this guy so he can say "This is so Cool" XD
11:09 So basically, what you're saying is.... You want Emeryl back?
Yeah, me too.
11:50 Oh wait, you took the words directly out of my mouth.
The grappling hook is such a missed opportunity. Could be fun to swing around with momentum based gameplay
I appreciate sonic forces cause it got me into sonic games i was a fortnite player and i was so bored i tried to check out sonic forces and welp here i am not alot of people are gonna appreciate it but i will always remember it
15:23 feels like they didn't have good ideas so they made boring fast-paced straight lines as level designs and they knew that they were uninspiring as fuck so their excuse is like "um uh yea it's on purpose! We wanted to give you easier time so we didn't create clever level designs like other games these days! It's all about non-stop action baby!"
Tho while playing the game, it does seem like it was build around what they say without actually trying to make it sound intentional in the promotional videos, because it IS intentional. I dunno which of these 2 scenarios I believe more, but both are really bad anyway so it doesn't really matter.
Our last hope for a definitive 3d sonic EXPERIENCE is project hero and sonic utopia.
Sonic Forces began actual development in 2016. They spent 3 years working on the lighting engine (which isn’t even that good)
I know that music is subjective. But I did like the music of forces, yeah some songs suck (all of classic Sonics music) but I did like park avenue, luminous forest, egg gate, imperial tower, death egg phase 3 theme, and the song that played in the credits
16:24 You know they messed up when the Sonic Twitter Team (basically huge fans of Sonic) says the game is basically sucks.
If you’ve ever seen the devs for Sonic Utopia explain how Sonic should play in the 3rd Dimension/in 3D games I would highly recommend it. Honestly it’s how Sonic can be revitalized and reimagined. Honestly I’m not a crazy sonic fan. I just like him. But learning about game design is real interesting. Just something I think you should check out.
Sonic Forces is truly a Bland and Boring game, and that what makes it the worse Sonic games. I have no idea what the Team was thinking when they were making this.
Look. Video games are not easy to make. Never mind the fact that Sonic Team was left with three. THREE PEOPLE to make the game, it’s a miracle it didn’t end up worse than 06. Forces ended up the way it did because Sonic Team didn’t have enough time. SEGA made them rush because they KNEW the fans were about to riot if they didn’t release Forces by early November. So, in summary, *YOU HAVE NO ONE ELSE TO BLAME BUT YOURSELVES FOR HAVING NO PATIENCE*
You know i haven’t seen anyone compare sonic 4 to sonic forces and I agree with what you said about the comparison
it's sad when the Sonic Movie is better than this series that has been around for years is at establishing what planet the story takes place, here they never flat out say if it's Mobius or earth, or if Mobius is on earth or an island or if the planet has always been Mobius or Earth (which makes the presence of Little Planet and the lost Hex make no sense since if it is earth then it makes no sense, but if it is Mobius, why are there all these humans? how did eggman get here? if it is 2 seperate worlds? then Why is Eggman here? what does Gerald Robotnik mean to anything?! The Sonic movie easily states that Sonic is from Mobius and escaped to Earth, here, they never explain where the hell we are.
They took the chopped up levels from colors, but forgot to make the rest of the level.
I completely agree with everything in the video, and I see what you mean by everything.
But I've seen people struggle with this game. I've seen people just barely beat Sunset Heights in under 5 minutes, with probably a lot of deaths.
I think the reason this game is flawed, is because they didn't want you to play it.
But that's pretty fucking stupid lmfao
44:46
Hate to break it to ya, Tele, but Generations is not a 3D Sonic game. It's got 50% Classic Sonic, which is 100% 2D and 50% Modern Sonic which is more than 50% 2D which means, overall, it's a 2D Sonic game.
Same goes for Colors, Same goes for Forces.
Don't get me wrong: Generations is great! It's my favorite Boost-Era Sonic game, *but it ain't 3D, Chief.*
I getcha, and I do mostly agree. It's mostly 2D and I think I address that in the video, but in terms of the released Sonic games that at least have 3D in them, it's my favourite, I suppose.
+ the bonus challenges and the bosses are mostly 2d too so yeah
still great but in no way 3d
There actually is a semi-open world Sonic game.
It’s called DBZ Kakarot... when you’re running on the ground.
Agree on the Zavok Boss(i was also confused)
One thing I don't like about Forces, is the majority of the game is in 2D! If I wanted to play 2D sonic, I'd play Mania.
Personally, I want a Adventures type Of Sonic game, with the Boost Formula
16:15 it really isn’t mostly the same, no drift, air boost is just dumb you can basically fly now. I don’t really like it cause before it was a risk and reward thing, you have a powerful air dash but you can’t really control it once cast, so you have to use it carefully and sinergize it with your stomp. Like the dive in Mario 64.
No air homing attack to help you platform, replaced with a useless double jump.you said it before.
But yeah it’s really fucking dumb to think that just “dashing like a maniac” is fun
I do agree that maybe the air boost is a little TOO powerful, but even if it was shorter I'd still prefer it to the old one. I like the way Sonic flips forward and arcs smoothly downwards, instead of the incredibly brief and difficult-to-control air boost from Unleashed/Generations.
@@telekinesticman hey thats cool, i just think that the gens boost is skill expressive, and mastering it is way more satisfying, but to each their own
Never forget
@@Rex67Diego9 same problems with the infinity engine
taku uzamaki infinity engine isn’t great but at least has better control
The Sonic Fan game community is my last hope for the Sonic the Hedgehog games... If Christian Whitehead can get us Sonic Mania then there's hope.
I actually like everything that isn't classic music but if you're not a fan of synth... Ho boy, I feel ya!
11:29 You're really describing Emerl from Sonic Battle rn
I love when I can tell people haven't actually watched the video before posting their comments.
Good job👏
I had no idea. It's not like it was in the video or something
@@telekinesticman i watched it, and guess what? Emerl's thing was literally copying character abilities, and he was executed very well story-wise
@@telekinesticman💀
Great video and good luck with the next part of your life
I agree with most of this video... except for the music. While I pretty much hate most of Classic Sonic's tracks, the EDM/dubstep of the Avatar gives me the nostalgic vibe of an old Sonic AMV from the late 2000s, and Modern Sonic's tracks are just good Sonic songs
Sonic Forces is called Sonic “FORCES” for a reason.
What they mean by other dimension is because this is the past sonic from the timeline where mania took place because mania is not in the main timeline
Yeah but that's still dumb. There's no reason for split timelines and all this junk in the Sonic franchise, it's unnecessarily complicated.
@@telekinesticman I agree. They now treat sonic as if he is now 2 different entities. Classic and Modern.
Dimensions and timelines are 2 different things
Then using the term "dimension" was still not the way to go. There's already a character from another dimension - Blaze.. who was absent in this game, by the way. Blaze's dimension (Sol Dimension) is parallel to Sonic's world/dimension that we all know.
Classic Sonic is simply a "younger" version of the main timeline's Sonic (Modern Sonic), but the timelines seemingly split during the events of Sonic Generations. The Modern Sonic we know never went through the events of Sonic Mania whereas Classic Sonic obviously did, in fact that's why he shows up again in Sonic Forces.
Being from a separate timeline is not at all the same as being from a different dimension.
The funny thing is, I wasn't even aware this game existed until it became free on PS Plus. And I'm a Sonic fan, albeit not as much involved as a typical fan, but I just never heard anything about this game. Boom really did a number on the series for me I suppose.
I just kinda ignored the existence of forces for a bit, even after mania brought me back into the series
It’s funny that this was the first sonic game I ever owned yet I’ve knew so much about this a series and was a fan for over a decade
Today is the 5th anniversary of forces, it still sucks and it will always suck.
I agree with pretty much all of your criticisms of this game, I played this when I had PS NOW on my PS4 and it was such a draining experience for me, with the bland levels, terrible boss fights, and a shitty soundtrack. I’m really glad you mentioned how bad the soundtrack is in particular, it actively harms the experience further for me, ESPECIALLY the green hill zone theme.
Story was laughably bad for me so I didn’t mind too much, there’s a certain charm at laughing at its ridiculousness.
Your idea of the avatar being a robot seems really cool btw, it would’ve lead to something more interesting than what we got.
I wonder, what do you think of Frontiers from what you have seen? I hear positive things about it, and there are a decent amount of things that appeal to me enough for me to want to purchase it (will probably see more footage first), but the fact that it sounds like just a “blueprint for a truly great sequel” instead of a great game on its own is so disappointing.
I think Frontiers looks incredibly bland and messy, and even the positive reviews are confirming that for me. It's just Forces level design slapped into an open world.
@@telekinesticman Yeaaah that’s completely fair. It’s so weird to me how the reception did a sudden 180 from “this game looks like shit” to “This game is massive peak sonic”, like to me it looks fun enough to play around with but I don’t think much has changed from the first reveal to now.
@@vipervio123 yeah I don't really see the difference, the game still looks bad just like it did at during the first gameplay reveal
Do people know what "angsting" means anymore? Shadow doesn't really act that different from his dark age era persona I'd say it's probably one of the more decent portrayls of the character in this era. I mean they at least showed his Team Dark bonds a little bit
@Wynn Wilson yes but modern shadow doesn't act like that in THIS game he protects Sonic from his clone and speaks with him amicibaly through the game, he gets a little cocky in his prologue story but Shadow SHOULD be a little cocky he's the ultimate life form the problem was always going way yo far with it which I dint think he does in this game.
Forces story and writing sucks I just don't think Shadow was a major issue here
Facts
Finally someone that agrees, that Sonic Forces feels more like a Sonic colors successor than a gens one.
Personally, I find speedrunning the game fairly enjoyable due to its very low bar of entry, most of the tricks also skip mpst of the automation which instantly makes the game 100 times better. Also, apparently many newcomers due to the series actually enjoy the game because every other Sonic game is too hard for them (which makes sense since Sonic games are pretty much acquired taste, since they require a specific mindset to properly enjoy).
I am also on those people who actually like the ost, I don't think that its better than other modern game titles, but many tracks got stuck in my head when I first played it. Some remixes of the OST by artists like Lil boulder that use better instruments are really good.
I feel like serious melodrama could work in Sonic but it needs good writing, good voice acting and good cutscenes, nothing of those Forces has. Funnily enough, Rise of Lyric *almost* makes it work? I'm not talking about in-game dialog, the prerendered cutscenes in that game aren't too overly serious, all the characters are wonderfully animated, when serious moments happen they try to pack a punch, the voice acting (even Roger Craig Smith) is some of the best in the franchise... but it's also sadly inside a game that plays like a Lego game most of the time and the in-game dialog that constantly repeats itself makes it look really bad. I disagree with serious moments needing irony or funny moments balancing it out, it seems like IDW Sonic doesn't really need that, the current Sonic thing with good writing... Otherwise, I completely agree with what you had to say in the video.
Speaking of Rise of Lyric, that Forces gear platforming thingy... I'd argue that that gear level in Rise of Lyric is conceptually really cool and Forces made it really boring. In Rise of Lyric, you're going from like a factory environment where you have a timelimit to save Tails, to hopping on gears and activating switches to progress and then finally climbing a giant robot-filled construction site that's building a giant robot that will be a threat to Sonic's world if the not-chaos emeralds go into the wrong hands. Oh, and it has some branching pathways here and there. That's so imaginative and cool... Now compare that to Forces where it's just a factory that makes "everyone's made to work like robots", I have no idea what Sonic even meant with that. There's plenty more really big potential Rise of Lyric had and it's such a shame it never really got fully realized, especially where gameplay's concerned.
You did mention that Forces runs on the Hedgehog Engine 2 but... Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games - Tokyo 2020 runs on Hedgehog Engine 2 as well. It also has Metropolitan Highway in it as a Sonic Riders-esque Dream Event but it looks great there, because they tweaked the level to actually look good. ruclips.net/video/oyj-iiGCm1M/видео.html
The new Sakura Wars game also runs on Hedgehog Engine 2, btw. The reason Forces looks really bad is definitely because of the awful art direction...
To be clear in terms of the writing, I don't mean that I want serious moments to be undercut with jokes like in Marvel movies, but that's always incredibly annoying (and another reason why I honestly really hate Marvel movies). What I mean is more that the tone needs to be balanced somewhat, so it doesn't get TOO dark and serious like Shadow, 06 etc. I hope that makes sense.
That level in the Olympics certainly does look better, but still from artistic changes, I think. They added green lights and other stage decorations that make it pop a bit more, but yeah, Hedgehog Engine 2 was wasted with Forces.
@@telekinesticman Ah, I get it now. Hm, I feel like Shadow and 06 aren't that dark but they really suck at setting the mood with their cutscene animations and voice acting, you just can't take them serious that way at all and Sonic Forces has that problem too. But yeah, now it makes what you've said, thanks!
I do agree that a open world game would be a good idea. We all know it would be a risk but it would mean that they would put their all into it. And if this ever became a thing and if it was a success or not at least they put all their passion into one last project
Two words: Sonic Frontiers
@@cloudshines812 what about it?
@@carterh914 Its basically what you described. An open “zone” Sonic game with full passion and risk for a greater reward… hopefully
@@cloudshines812 maybe. It looke more like a step forward to something different for the ip.
Makes Shadow the Hedgehog look good, don't it?
Shadow the Hedgehog and even Sonic 06 look good compared to this- and I hoped to God that that would be a sentence I'd never ever say.
Forces is my second least favorite game of all time behind Frontiers, but I feel like I'm one of the only people who doesn't hate the soundtrack.
@@alder613 I respect your opinion(I also love the OST)
I found parts of the Avatar's soundtrack to be actually nice, but that's coming from someone who loves Drum & Bass, that synth-heavy "dududududu" you criticized. And to be fair, you have a strong point there, but the right DnB will fit right at home with Sonic, if you ask me. Energetic and fast paced.
Note that I've not said anything about the lyrics. That's because... after Forces' forced lyrics, I'll only accept instrumentals.
I personally found the soundtrack to be very good
'06 geniunely felt like a better game than this mess. That game was so bad it was amusing to see how crappy the story and voice acting was. Forces was so goddamn bland and uninteresting I was glad when it ended (which should be the other way around). And I say that's something much worse
In regards to the "so this is where eggman built infinite" basically in a early draft of the story, in the first one in fact, infinite was originally a creature created by eggman, but during the many story rewrites that ended up changing, the fact this original part of the plot somehow ended up in the final game, just show how rushed development of the game was.
Between the custom avatar character, the weird ass missions and daily missions, Infinite being stupidly similar to Persona, and damn near charging real world money for Super Sonic, it's like SEGA completely ignored all criticisms of recent Sonic games, looked at the success of their Phantasy Star Online 2, and were like, "yep".
I always loved Forces, actually
I do not care what Sega decides to do for the next 3D Sonic game. I literally do not care at all. As long as the next game what's fun to control, has good level design, and had an, at the very least presentable story, then I'd be okay with it.
for the loops, even in the early 3d titles they had a purpose, as some sort of quick break from the action packed platforming, but when the entire stage is playing itself they have no point
I know it's subjective but I enjoy the music.
If anybody wants to experience the best of this game. Get to Modern Sonics Sunset heights then dip. The story just gets infuriating from there on out. The very start of the game is the most interesting. Its like the more I play the worse the game gets.
I see it! I see it now! It’s always been inside of me!!!!🎉😊
Also something about Metropolis and that tower that really bugs me is how they look like Wily fortresses and not Eggman bases. You're telling me that the guy who built a giant death ball with HIS OWN FACE on it and redecorated an ancient pyramid with HIS HEAD plastered everywhere would build such a generic looking futuristic base. Speaking of the pyramid levels from SA2, when I saw that this game had a pyramid I went "Oh nice reference! I wonder what they'll do with it?". Well, nothing. Just compare the interiors, one could not be the hideout of anyone but the one and only Dr. Robotnik while the other is just... a villain's base. Sorry if you've already said this in the video, I'm typing this around halfway through.
I share my thoughts with you 100%. The worst part of Forces, besides the gameplay, bland graphics, and wasted story, is the disappointing soundtrack. Sonic games are famous for always getting the music right, no matter what, but now that they ruined the one consistent thing they had, how can I ever trust Sega with anything Sonic again?
Honestly my expectations are pretty low for whatever the next game is, but I want it to be something good. It's a shame I'm not really excited for Sonic games anymore because I just can't trust that I won't get disappointed.
When this game came out the Sonic Forces defense squad shut their stupid mouths for good. 😂
The worst part of the super sonic for me, is that if i remember correctly it's literally just invulnerability and infinite boost, that's it, you don't get a higher jump height, you don't get a increased speed cap or anything like that, it's one of the most lazy super sonics ever made in a mainline sonic game.
47:02 Cd deserves an A tier imo
2:30 yes it has:lower budget and the engine took 4 or 3 years the game itself got just 1...
you were so long to have a longer review than somecallmejohnny' Sonic 06
Speaking of sonic 4, I remember seeing the title screen (a picture of it) and thought this is obviously fake. Years later I saw a RUclips video about it and was surprised that this crappy PNG picture was official lmhoo
I'd play 06 over Forces every single day, because at least then I wont be bored out of my mind.
I purchased the game day 1
With my ex girlfriends money cause she forgot that she left the info for a prepaid PS4 card in our Discord chats together :^)
So no regrets I guess
Community treated Forces as if it came out right after Generations. LIke it wasn't 5 years after Generations and 4 years after SLW and 3 years after Boom and there was never a real threat for the franchise to literally become a chain of SLW/Boom sequels for the next 10-15 years. For me it was a huge relief.
iirc the 8 directional movement is because of the pc port being ass
I played sonic adventure 2 on steam, I was surprised by how much it holds up even if forces was the lowest bar.
29:21 well, sega hardlight was in the making of sonic forces
Only for the PC port I think, but yes that is true.
Those developers that made Sonic Forces probably watch too much of my little pony so that they can force friendship into the game