Pax Pamir: Second Edition - Right for you / Wrong for you - (Quackalope Review)
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- Опубликовано: 23 фев 2020
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In Pax Pamir, players assume the role of nineteenth-century Afghan leaders attempting to forge a new state after the collapse of the Durrani Empire. Western histories often call this period "The Great Game" because of the role played by the Europeans who attempted to use central Asia as a theater for their own rivalries. In this game, those empires are viewed strictly from the perspective of the Afghans who sought to manipulate the interloping Ferengi (foreigners) for their own purposes.
In terms of gameplay, Pax Pamir is a pretty straightforward tableau builder. Players spend most of their turns purchasing cards from a central market, then playing those cards in front of them in a single row called a court. Playing cards add units to the game's map and grants access to additional actions that can be taken to disrupt other players and influence the course of the game. That last point is worth emphasizing. Though everyone is building their own row of cards, the game offers many ways for players to interfere with each other directly and indirectly.
To survive, players will organize into coalitions. Throughout the game, the dominance of the different coalitions will be evaluated by the players when a special card, called a "Dominance Check", is resolved. If a single coalition has a commanding lead during one of these checks, those players loyal to that coalition will receive victory points based on their influence in their coalition. However, if Afghanistan remains fragmented during one of these checks, players instead will receive victory points based on their personal power base.
After each Dominance Check, victory is checked and the game will be partially reset, offering players a fresh attempt to realize their ambitions. The game ends when a single player is able to achieve a lead of four or more victory points or after the fourth and final Dominance Check is resolved.
#boardgames #paxpamir #ColeWehrle 
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Sorry for spamming your comments but this seemed appropriate. Just announced: Reprint hitting KS March 10. For those of us with the game already, there will be an add-on pack we can get where the ruler tokens are going to be screenprinted and metal coins will be available again for anyone who missed them the first time/wants a second set!
Bring on the spam! I just saw the announcement and I am so excited :) - I can’t wait!
@@Quackalope haha love this channel
I’m so glad you do :) I love it as well - but I’m very biased!!
Backed. Looks like a fantastic production
Think there's a rules error here. Overthrow rule: You only lose your Political cards (purple), not all of your cards associated with that region. Vice Versa, if you lose all your political cards for that region, you lose those tribes. Only purple cards.
Good clarification thank you!
@@Quackalope Wow that's a pretty big rule to misunderstand. :P Game breaking, possibly. But yeah it happens.
@@willbeplayin I am not sure if he knows the correct rule and did not say it correctly - or if they play it wrong XD - I did not know the game :P - we did say people get it wrong often!
@@Quackalope ruclips.net/video/Fu845yxoKjA/видео.htmlm45s Be careful! Elaine from No Pun Included has a special knife for people who get this rule wrong. :)
Hunh, that's actually a rule I got wrong myself... I wonder if I would have won that last game...
My current no 1 game. Great theme integration like you guys mentioned. The thing that really brings it home for me is that the game gives you the building blocks that could get you out of a tight spot by letting you get creative.
And this game brought me to oath which brought me to this lovely channel!
Nice - I can't wait to back this one! I am glad you found us :P
I was not familiar with your channel and stumbled on it while I was researching Pax Pamir for the current KS. Great, thorough discussion, and very helpful. You have a new subscriber for sure. Thank you!
Awesome video! I found this channel through the Reprint campaign on Kickstarter. I subscribed and look forward to future content!
3 videos in less than 24 hours?! how can I keep up. You fellas are spoiling us! great showcase as usual. Keep em coming ^_^
Did I get 3 videos out in less than 24 hours XD - thats great! Time to get back to work. . . It is just me filming and editing . . . I need a team!
This was the first game I ever saw and just knew I had to have it. I've played at 1, 2, and 3 players and loved them all. In my opinion, it isn't "heavy" so much as "deep" and "obscure". It has a unique non-fictional historical theme that ties in hard with the mechanics, heavy on the player interaction, and the production quality is fantastic. One of my favourite aspects of the game is how the game takes place on the board but also on each player's tableau. You do need a few plays to really understand what the game is but that is Cole Wehrle's whole deal. This one was and is definitely right for me.
Nice - It is a beautiful game in so many ways! I can't wait to play it!
Yes the spies traveling the tableau part is just *cheff's kiss*
Looks very interesting and I love these long form videos.
Glad your enjoying them :) we need to do some shorter videos one day! However - I like giving ourselves the space to have a conversation!
Phil, seriously you need to do many more reviews. Subscribed!
He is always welcome :)
Thanks for this thoughtful discussion of Pax Pamir Second Edition. I’m very interested in this game and your presentation taught me a lot.
I am glad we could help :)
Great to see you two. It's also nice to see Phil without his Baseball Highlights Award ;)
Thank you for covering these heavy games! I’d be happy to see a Pipeline Right for you/Wrong (I think I saw it in the background) for you if it’s the kind of game you love yourself!
Pipeline is one we have played once so far - enjoyed it but I would need to dive in a lot more to cover it! We want to cover heavier games since we play a lot of them!
What an excellent video! I'd love to see some gameplay before their upcoming kickstarter ends!
If I can make it happen :P I will!
This game deserves much more love.
I think it’s limited availability makes it a hard one to showcase :) - I hope we get a chance to cover it more in the future!
I love this series "right/wrong for you". Great video, while I already know this game IS for me ( backed on KS) I can recommend this video to some gaming pals that were a bit intimidated by Pamir .... Well done!
This game looks stunning (just like your production quality you little gems you)! I would love to see some gameplay of this from you. I've tried finding good gameplay of various boardgames since I started getting into them this last year, but there simply are no channels quite like you. Do please keep going.
Thanks so much :) we are doing our best to produce nice BG media! I hope we can do a gameplay of Pax before the KS launch - I am glad you enjoy what we are doing!
Cole designed the first edition as well, not Phil Eklund. Phil produced it and certainly helped Cole along as it was his first game but the design credit still goes to Cole.
Oh nice! We didn’t realize this :) - thank you for the context!!
Yeah, this was Cole's first published game! Not a Phil Eklund design!
Usually, a game with this level of detail make me wish it was in RPG form so I could explore it. This game? this game makes me fascinated for a period of history that I normally overlook (I'm more of an ancient history and folklore sort of guy). That alone makes this a great game. Its so hard to make a game about real historic events both compelling and reflective of that event.
I 100% agree - it’s kinda cool how much history is built into the structure of this game! I can’t wait to play it more :)
I think your point is really well made!
Great formula and presenters. First time a I can see somebody in a shirt and a tie. BTW it would be great to divide video in sections and have visual bullet points as a summary.
Very interesting discussion!
Was I the only one who blew on his phone screen at 2:22 trying to get that lint off? 😆
Excellent video!
Hahha I can’t find it XD - sorry if there was camera lint!
Glad you liked it!
Quackalope haha It was just on the blue board on the left of “Purchase.” Made me laugh since it was actually in the video; was a funny human moment!
At 25:12 your guest gets a pretty major rule wrong in two ways, ironically its the rule he said people often get wrong/forget. The Overthrow rule only "checks" the purple political suited cards (the ones with the crown icon), so he would not lose the two cards in his example (an intelligence card and an economic card). He also says the Overthrow rule occurs when he uses "control" of Kabul-which the game calls ruling a region-this is also wrong. You can have tribes in a region which you don't rule and they wouldn't be effected by the Overthrow rule until you lose your last tribe. Losing your rule of a region never effects the cards in your court/tableau.
I should add that I got this rule wrong in my first two plays of the game and it gave me a very negative impression of the game. Plaything the rule the way described makes the board extremely volatile and hard to parse/control. If I continued to play the rule as described I would not have kept the game/enjoyed it as much as I do now. Playing the rule as described has such a negative effect on the game that it might be worth adding a note in the description of the video to give future viewers a heads up about the mistake in the video. Keep pumping out the great content, I've been enjoying the things you're putting out.
Yea . . . Thank you for pointing it out! I can see how that rule can be easy to overlook and get wrong - I will make sure we have a comment with the correction pinned!
Another excellent review. Interested taking this game
your videos have great production
would love to see a complete game with you two!
I’m highly considering backing this next month 😍😍 I played it once and enjoyed it, even though it was one of those weird early ending games of it! I had placed a ton of influence early for the faction i was alligned with and then the scoring card got me 5 points and no one else any points.. The guy teaching me was like, “oh. it’s over” i was expecting another hour and a half of gameplay lol.
I have been waiting for this kickstarter for a few months now, so I am certainly interested and will be picking up a copy on the 10th, unless there are some odd surprises.
I am as well :) - I can't wait!
Watching this with the third print run of the game from the John Company KS. Very happy to have Pax now and getting JC a few months from now. can already tell this will be a new favorite game. I tend to lighter games for sure...but the theme really hits me for some reason. Very happy with the quality and care of the game.
I passed this up the first time because the theme didn't appeal to me, but I think I might really enjoy this game. Will have to watch for the Kickstarter since no one in my area has this. Good to know it needs 3 people to really enjoy it.
Would love to see your group playing this.
I hope we can bring some gameplay in time for the KS being active!
Great video! Loved seeing Phillip Millman. Based on this video, I am backing the current Kickstarter.
Literally was just checking BGG threads for upcoming reprint of this right before you said “you might already be searching for this online...” 😆
Thats fantastic XD
Oh man, you've been posting vids as of late on my absolute favorite games. If you get Feudum to the table, I'll be so happy.
Hahah that’s awesome! We have been collecting viewer requests so we will make a note XD - I’m glad you have been enjoying the recent content!
+1 to this. Oath, Root, Wonderland's War (which I was and am really interested in), and now Pax Pamir 2E. Quackalope is speaking my language.
This was my #1 for 2019. I really, really loved the 1st edition too but the 2nd ed. improves it by a landslide. Best with 4p.
Nice! It seems like this game has a special place for a lot of people!
You are killing it!! Right when I am in doubt if si should keep it. I'm so not sure if its domething for my group!
Hahah - well it is ok if it’s not right for your group :) that’s important to know!
Also you should 100% get rid of it - awful game - I’ll give you my address to dispose of it safely!
Jonas Kissling it's a great game which also plays solo. I'd think twice before getting rid as it could prove difficult to reacquire later. It was only available through the Kickstarter campaign.
This is a top 5 game for me! I've mostly played it at 2 actually, and I still really enjoy it. Games have ranged from about 15 minutes to 75 minutes at 2. I've won very quickly and been on the receiving end, but it's always a blast, and it's one of those games that makes you feel like you earned the win or loss. When you win, you feel clever, and when you lose, you contemplate your many poor choices in life. :)
It is also definitely fantastic at 3 and 4 as well, but most people seem to agree on those counts. I haven't played 5, and if you play solo or with the automa, it's a must to download the bgg file - "Wakhan play aid with/without flowchart". They help clarify the automa rules based on Ricky Royals feedback and make running it a lot easier.
Nice! I like hearing peoples opinions on player counts! I can't wait to get a copy to the table (hopefully before the KS launch) - and good info on the solo element - I keep hearing mixed reviews and that would be the difference.
Thanks!
Thank you!
Pax pamir 2nd edition and John country 2nd edition are on Kickstarter right now 3/31/21.
So of course I need to watch Quackalope.
This looks very interesting. I am not a heavy historical gamer such as a war gamer or 18xxer. But I really appreciate unique games with historical value. This seems like a game that could be that type of game for me. I have twilight struggle and really like the feel of it. You mentioned Twilight Struggle which gives me the impression that it has a great balance of interesting decisions and the theme and mechanisms are in proportion. Thanks for this review! On another note...what do you think about Feast for Odín? Some think it is very fiddly, which it is. But I still love it. It would be great to see a review and maybe a play through like you have done for Scythe. Oh, and keep up on Scythe. I love the way you guys present the game play. Lots of hard work I know.
I think that is an element that I love - the historical setting it digs into is done really well. I am glad you enjoyed this review and it showed that this might be one you should check out!
Feast for oden is one of the best worker placement / tile laying games I have played :) I loved it! Scythe is coming again - soon - we have even bigger plans!
Personally, I think this is actually a solid 2p game. You lack the tension from 3+ but if both players are evenly skilled...it's such a fantastic battle of wits. In fact, experience doesn't always matter either, because of the market is unpredictable. I do think it helps to "draft" the deck in 2p --- not unlike what Cole apparently did playing Pax Porfiriana w/ his brother, which inspired Oath. So I do think 2p is a strong player count.
I'm not a solo player, but the bot Wakhan is extremely good. When I bought the game, I didn't think I'd solo against Wakhan very often --- however, it's quite compelling, & the game itself is so quick to set up anyway, & I actually do play against Wakhan often. Plus, you discover strategies to use in multiplayer. And in terms of complexity...personally, I find certain Root factions to be more fiddly! At least Wakhan has a flowchart --- one that fits on the back of a playing card, no less! (Some people add Wakhan to a 2-player game, but I personally find the 2p match better & more intimate without Wakhan.)
I also disagree with the guest about "role motivations." Yes, in most Pax games, you don't care so much for the outcome of Mexico, medieval Europe, etc. However, to me Pamir 2e is special for how you are *also* not a wealthy individual in the upper echelons, unlike Pax Porfiriana or Pax Renaissance...you are a tribal chieftain (or a khan) with ties to your peoples & land. And so your victory in thematic terms is a history, shaped by your play, of how you drove the birth & transformation of your homeland from a mess of shambles into Afghanistan. And what risky allegiances & betrayals, & political, military, & economic stratagem plus espionage made it happen.
Now: if Quackalope did a playthrough of Pax Pamir 2e, heck, I'd get my mother to subscribe...
Finally...Just because it bears reiterating: that's possibly the worst way to mistake the Overthrow Rule!
Thanks for the video! May I ask what sleeves you used? The info would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for doing this video! I had missed the Pax Pamir 2nd edition bandwagon, and was delighted to find out that Cole is offering this desirable title through another KS campaign. I believe he's decided to formally separate this reprint from the previously planned update to John Company (which will occur later this year).
My understanding is that PP2E has a very well constructed solo mode, using the Wakhan deck. Was this your impression/experience as well?
I am so glad it is being launched soon! I am excited to take a swing at the solo - we don't know it well enough to comment yet!
Bought my copy in the UK from the European supplier for £80. Have added real Afghan Rupee coins, as could not get the game coin upgrade. It’s a great game, why? Well, cracking production values, very interesting decision points, great player interaction where the players themselves bring their characters into the game, they are not just playing to the strength of their asymmetric starter character or faction. The theme is real, not fantasy or sci-fi, so has a level of intrigue that many other games don’t have. Can’t wait for my next game.
Fancy! I agree with your points and I can't wait to play more!
Would love love love a playtru of this on the channel. Crossing my fingers !! :D
For being a heavy game that board is surprisingly uh...light! Absolutely gorgeous though. I kind of want it just for those lovely rectangular pieces
It’s a very pretty game - I was taken back by the size of it Vs the gameplay! I’m so used to thematic games with piles of books and minis!
z beeblebrox this is probably the best produced game in my collection. A lot of thought has clearly gone into every element of the game. The rules are well written, the pieces are both beautiful and thematic. Even the storage within the box has been well thought out and functions well.
great review thanks for it. Already pre-ordered myself and going to wait impatiently for another half a year :) one question - what about some playthrough?
XD I can't wait for the KS - I hope I can table it for the channel before the KS drops. Not 100% though!
I'm blaming my Kickstarter purchase on you guys lol.
I bought into the hype online and backed. Then somehow convinced myself its not for me.
Then I watched this video, and I'm a backer again lol.
I got Pax Transhumanity because of thematic interest and cheap price point. I quite love it. What would be good points to consider to know if i should own both?
Ahhh Pax games!
Hello!
I would love to see you guys play Pax Pamir, hope yo see it
I hope we can!
Few things I don't entirely agree. First it's great at all player count and solo it's not as bad as well. It's first solo I played more then twice as it's also enjoyable. Games is simply giving slightly different feeling depending on player count. Next one it's on the teach. It's simple but depth is in strategy. Enjoyment can be felt from first plays. History of Great Game is great but history told by people/game is far more interesting. You can sense straight away that Oath has the same intention of building the story and not being completely tight to flavour text.
Nice! I’m glad to have the wider context for player count - solo is something I am glad exists and will be looking forward to trying!
I think the depth of strategy is a big part of this game - and I can totally see the frameworks for intention in this compared to Oath - it’s got that same desire to tell you a version of history!
Thanks for watching!
Pax Pamir...sooo elegant! Added on my wishlist ;)
ps. Never try Xia?
Hi! I just wanted to say that I loooove the AI of this game. I play a lot of solo game and this is one of my favorite!
Nice - I have heard some mixed things - but I am glad a few voices have really loved it!
@@Quackalope It's a solo AI of a game where the complexity is not in the rules but in knowing why you should or shouldn't do something, and when to do it. The fact that it works is already extraordinary. Of course there's a learning curve, but once you're on top, it works brilliantly. And the decision priorities of the AI thought me a lot about the game and the kind of cards I should watch for and prioritize. The solo variant made me better when playing multiplayer.
Since there is a new KS/reprint campaign coming March 10, do you guys plan a playthrough/detailed how to play video? I'd watch that!
The game’s very charming and has interesting mechanics. I still don’t know if I should get this with Oath coming, since Cole borrowed many ideas and mechanics from Pax Pamir for Oath if I’m not mistaken, so I’m not sure if I want to end up with two games with the same-y base mechanics, especially if Oath is improving on those mechanics.
The thematic and historical accuracy in this one are surely big points and that’s why I’m still on the fence for this game.
I absolutely love this game, I will sing its praises and debate its weaknesses or perceived weaknesses. I've taught this game to ~15 people and have ~ 20+ plays. I've noticed that the best way to teach this game is 1 on 1 or with 2 experienced players and 1 new player. If you're the game leader and you'll be teaching it to other folks, hop on the Pamir TTS discord (message me) and someone will teach it to you and play a round.
IMO 1vs1 gives people the most time to connect with the mechanics and rule nuances, walking them through potential blocking moves, seeing how complex moves play out ect. Then after they are comfortable with the mechanics adding more players to really get into the torrid political allegiance game play which is amazing.
Two things that people should know. First, this game has a rubber band built in. It also happens to be one of the few times I've experienced a rubber band mechanic and felt like it was amazing (thematically it doesn't really make sense but oh well). The last check for points is worth double, this is absolutely critical. Remembering this and planning for this moment can make for some incredible comebacks that will have you astounded.
Second, this game has some truly complex plays that can make you feel like an absolute genius, with everyone around the table going .... what in the world did you just do ... how did you just do all of that. Some times these plays don't result in you "scoring", but changing the board state in a way no one saw coming and not in "gotcha" sense.
Totally recommend this game!
Zak, would you recommend this for people who'll probably only play it as a 2-player game? Some people say it's great at 2p, but others say that 2p loses some of what makes the game shine.
I have Pax Renaissance (1st Edition), but haven't been able to get my wife to learn it, so I was thinking that this might be a somewhat easier intro into Pax games. But I don't want to bother if it's "meh" at 2p (or not really any easier to learn/play than Pax Ren).
@@ModernPlague It's very different at two players, it is more like chess with two players. I have only a few play throughs as 2 player. Still found it very fun and engaging.
Covid changed my gaming paradigm so much. It's sad that it doesn't play well at 1-2 which is what my typical gaming range falls into now and is a make or break requirement for me. Regretfully passing on this.
What card sleeves were used? Can you provide a link?
I really like these videos; especially if you bring someone passionate about the game explaining why it is a cool game, but also telling why it might not be for you!
I have a question to the community/Quackalope here; from a level of accessibility/heavy, where would you compare it with Cole's other games such as Root or Oath? or even an other heavy game I own like Foodchain Magnate.I'm just wondering if it is something too heavy for my gaming group or not.
I like the idea of people sharing the games they love :) - they do a better job of telling me why I might like something - but also being honest about the parts I might not like!
I think Pax has a lot fo depth in it - more than root or oath in some ways - root is complex in the surface factions and then in the war tactics - Oath is complex in the balance you must strike (kinda a mix of the two ideas) and Pax is deep - you are playing the same set of cards - but digging into the way they combine and change the tiles.
Pamir is not as quite heavy as Food Chain Magnate, but it does have layers of depth in similar fashion to a Splotter, which also don't reveal themselves in the first few plays. Compared to Root, Pamir has far less rules quantity, & arguably less complexity...however, nearly every element of the game interlocks & interacts with everything else, which is different from Root's asymmetry, & thus is a different kind of brain burn, because of how these interactions layer & build on one another...again, here I might compare it to a Splotter. I haven't played Oath, but the main comparison I gather to Oath is the game's allegiance management. However, Oath was inspired by how Cole played Pax Porfiriana with his brother Drew (Porfiriana was the first Pax game, and the 1st ed. of Pamir was the second).
However: the Food Chain Magnate comparison may be misleading, because what matters is whether your group would enjoy Pamir's gameplay. I'd say in this sense it's closer to something like Dune. The signal features are the allegiance management, court intrigue with spies, temporary alliances & sudden betrayals, then former enemies become temporary allies...most of all & like Oath this isn't really scripted by the game, but is emergent from how your group will play, especially after multiple plays. Like Root, or other games by Cole, the gamestate really takes on the nature of the group playing it. If your group likes that, then even regardless of the historical theme (which is fantastic!), they'll dig Pamir.
@@malexander4094 Great response! I seemed to have missed the question when I replied - but you did a better job than I could have anyways! XD
Sorry to blow up the comments section, I tend to comment as I listen. Another thing, John Company is a phenomenal game as well so that Kickstarter might be doubly worth it. Cole is on another level of game design as far as I’m concerned. I absolutely love Root and yet it’s my fourth favorite Cole Wehrle design. Also this channel is great, enjoy the content a lot.
I don’t mind you being in the comments at all - I’m glad your listening and I hope you have enjoyed the conversation!
I will be getting every design by Cole that I can :)
Thank you for this video. This shows me how important setting and theme is for me when it comes to my enjoyment of games. Whereas Root and Oath are right for me for their complex integration of asymmetrical factions vying for control where the themes of woodland critters and dynastic succession or overthrow of old kingdoms bring it home, the theme here of shifting political loyalties and attempting to profit off of imperialistic expansion in the 19th century is something I would never enjoying being a part of. I would feel compelled to play a game of Spirit Island right after sitting down to play this to wash away the dirty feelings Pax Pamir would fill me with.
Setting and theme are a big element for sure! I agree that Root and Oath are amazing due to the theme (they draw me in - I grew up reading mossflower and redwall) This one strikes me as fascinating because of the depth it put into the history - I can understand not wanting to play - for me however, history is set and learning about it is experiencing it however we can helps us not make the same mistakes. I love it as a teaching tool and a game!
That's too bad, but everyone has their own taste. Personally, I would feel compelled to play something like this after Spirit Island.
Spirit Island appears to be subversive, but in reality, it takes the very terms & narrative of colonialism/imperialism, & merely pretends to travel in the opposite direction. All the aggression, annihilation, human slaughter, "clear every undesirable off the map" mentality etc. so celebrated in colonialism/imperialism is simply aimed in reverse --- and then, either in insult or silliness, this is called "anti-colonialist!" It's also a game of resources, where you're trying to develop (in a fashion not unlike the progress of industrialization) into the most powerful destructive force...This is again taking the problematic models on which imperialism is based, & pretending it's subverting them.
But most importantly of all, the natives themselves, the Dahan, are not active protagonists of their own narrative --- just like so many colonial/imperialist narratives with indigenous peoples. On top of everything else, this way of cheapening & invisibilizing the nativist people's participation in (supposedly) their own story is, to me, perhaps the dirtiest thing of all. In short: for me, Spirit Island is a fantasy simluation which recycles & repeats the very thing it pretends to be "anti-"...!
Now of course, everyone wants different things from games, e.g. education or escapism. For me I enjoy both...but re: the former, I admire that Pax Pamir places you firmly in the nativist position of an Afghan chieftan fighting for your homeland, & the birth of your own nationhood...& this is not at all fantastical, but historically what actually happened. (And is still happening, anywhere imperialism reigns: the nativist actors are not powerless or passive. And another valuable lesson: every superpower nation who has or will come to power, passes through Afghanistan...)
Yes: this, I would play, especially to wash away the taste of Spirit Island's fantastical violence & wish fulfillment vengeance escapism...and a so-called "anti-colonial" fantasy which, frankly, I am not so sure we, as gamers with privileges of distance, have entirely earned... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@malexander4094 Thank you for taking the time to offer a well-written counter viewpoint. You touch on some very interesting points, however I feel you missed the thrust of my meaning and thusly have made arguments that don't make much sense given the proper context.
The very fact that the Dahan are not the active protagonists for me is where the real allure lies. Reducing the importance of the cruelties and machinations of humanity from all conquering and consuming to being able to be merely pawns subject to the whims of forces potentially more powerful than their own is a nice antidote to seeing everything and everyone subverted to the will of the people with the most power, wealth and influence. How many times have we seen people fight "valiantly" for their own freedom and self determination only to turn around and ignore the rights and freedoms of subgroups and subcultures they were supposedly fighting for? In my experience, there is no single group of peoples who make for an unflawed, heroic protagonist. Let's also not forget the compelling archaeological evidence that of the nearly score of hominid species that arose along side modern humans, that none survived contact with homo sapiens. We also see that wherever humanity migrates to they adapt their surroundings to fit their own needs without regards to the consequences of the lesser species and ecosystems already there. Their social hierarchy needs also dictate that any fellow groups of humans they make contact with must inevitably be changed to be useful to them - occasionally through friendly means but most often through conflict. This holds true for groups of peoples considered "primitive" as well as the more "civilized" groups we are more familiar in assuming the role of in our escapism.
As a neurodiverse member of our wonderful species, I have only tangentially and briefly enjoyed the privilege of acceptance within any group and as such have acquired quite the outsider's experience. For me, personally, history has always held a perverse fascination. The same fascination I feel in watching a grotesquely horrifying movie, with a certain "Groundhog's Day" feel. The same events playing out over and over. More suffering then should ever be tolerated, followed by uprisings that upend the offending governing structures with the best of intentions only to replace them with ones that eventually mirror or are even more cruel than their predecessors. The same story over and over with no hope or reasonable expectations that it'll ever change. Humans have evolved to occupy their apex role through mastering the means to efficiently dominate, exploit, and exterminate. You can't change that without changing what it means to actually be "human".
Chasing the fantastical narrative that any historical period of upheaval was ever justified in the amount of suffering and destruction created for the purpose of advancing any one group above that of any other is one that with my privilege of distance I have never earned nor ever really craved. So that brings us back to the fantasy of chasing the idea that if humanity is beat back in its attempts establish dominion, the world might become a healthier and better place, as Spirit Island posits, as more alluring than reliving any historical narrative. Your mileage, as the saying goes, may vary and everyone has their own taste.
To wrap up, neither of us is right and neither of us is wrong. These are all merely opinions about a game. Games don't have to appeal to all tastes. Nor should they. I do appreciate, however, that you felt the need to take the time to so lovingly and condescendingly explain to me why my opinion is invalid, based on incorrect assumptions about my motivations and experiences because.... internet! I hope, however, that our conversation was able to demonstrate to anyone reading that all opinions of whether a game's setting or mechanics will be appealing are entirely dependent on how you approach it, and that is a personal thing with no right or wrong answer.
@@antoniapineiro7124 I do understand what you mean, & agree with some points.
I'm rather dubious Spirit Island "chases the fantasy" or posits "the idea that humanity should be beat back in its attempts to establish dominion..." For if it did so, then the game would have players vanquishing the Dahan as well as the settlers. (Which might at least be, in a certain sense, more intellectually honest.)
I agree there is a nice antidote to reducing the importance of humanity's cruelties. However, I do find the fantastical narrative of Spirit Island, or anything like it, to be still oversimplistic for my tastes: for this remains too black-and-white, a false binary where humanity is something "other" than nature, & one gets posited, positioned, or weighed against the other. Pretending to dwarf the scale of humanity's behaviors against the apparently more powerful whims/forces of Spirit Forces of Mother Nature...thus personifying nature as something other in service of a story about how our species is less powerful than it...or pretending we are some corrupted offshoot from some so-called higher purer nature, and so forth...I believe *we are nature.* I believe we, with the planet as a whole, form a vast superorganism of life & consciousness... (And perhaps it can be said it is a system potentially existing beyond even just this planet.) So to me, all that binary thinking, of humanity vs. nature, is a discontinuous, misleading, & maybe even unhealthy way of seeing things. ***To be clear, this is not directed against you, or your beliefs, or assumptions made about them --- but rather this line of thinking I see in Spirit Island, & elsewhere.
As for history: I agree it is tedious & perverse to simply repeat history in gaming, or chase a game's fantasy where upheaval is justified. However, some historical games, & I believe Pax Pamir to be among the best I've found, offer something more subtle & profound: a sandbox to explore how History itself happens. You are invited to be a Subject of History there, & you're offered real, impactful, & tricky decisions. One's mileage varies, yes...but for me, this invitation is more alluring than any violent vengeance fantasy simulation. And the decisions are tastier.
Partly, that's because I really do believe it is only "the same story over and over with no hope or reasonable expectations that it'll ever change" if we presume Subjects are static, & choices are made for the same reasons. But in this game, they never are: change is the nature of things. And if you stay a static Subject, & make repetitive choices to only ever exterminate, etc., that in fact is precisely how to lose a game of Pax Pamir.
Finally: sorry if you felt I was condescending in some way. For I certainly do not find your opinion invalid. Nor did I make assumptions about your motivations or experiences; I was simply describing what I find flawed about Spirit Island, & I've held that position long before your comment --- which, of course, is why nothing in that description is ever directed at you. Nonetheless, I thank you for the conversation...because, internet, indeed.
@@malexander4094 Well said. My apologies for the misunderstanding, and thank you for your points and counterpoints :)
Once you've gotten a game or two in, can you say how similar gameplay wise it is to Oath? Are they different enough to justify both? My group is all in on ROOT, and I've backed OATH, and just not sure about this one. I'm SUPER intrigued by it, but I don't want to spend another $100 on something that may not get to the table if Oath fills the same game play space. Appreciate any thoughts!
I think - at the moment - Oath is a mix of ideas. It has the history element and the card play - however, it also pulls from Root with the player powers and abilities - I personally think there is room on my self for both Oath and Pax the theme and style of gameplay mean I will pull them out with different groups. I also think Pax with is shifting balance mechanic does something unique from Oath.
Sorry guys I’m not following along your continuous flow of interesting videos, I’ve been quite busy in the last week and this one is no different apparently. This one I’ve been curious about because it has lots of influence on Oath.
I’ll surely check this later, when I can respite a little
No worries :) you will have some catching up to do!
Still waiting on the reprint :(
At least I can play on Tabletop Simulator for now. But I'd much rather play in person.
Cool music btw!
I need it as well XD
@@Quackalope and with respect to the other guy, please keep the music going in other videos. I was wearing headphones on a train and could understand everything just fine. Some people just don't like ethnic music :p
I don’t know if it’s the ethic problem - there were moments where the higher tones did take focus away from the video. It’s a hard balance to strike - however the music for me does keep me invested in the media - I loose focus if it is filled with so much silence. So it won’t go away :)
What do I find innovative about the game? The transition of wargame element into the modern board gaming hobby.
Historical conflict simulation? Check.Flavor text based in history? Check.Artwork that is period appropriate? Check.Bibliographies used in researching the game? Check.Designer diaries/notes? Check.
All of these things have their roots in wargames, especially modern CDGs (card driven games) or games like GMT's COIN series.
The other major innovation is blending styles of games into a very nice product.
Three greater nation factions that are non-player pieces that can be manipulated by players under the right circumstances? If you played an 18xx game, you are used to investing in companies that you control but aren't player factions.
Streamlined rules and gorgeous overproduced components? I call this the Stonemaier-ization of Pax Pamir. It isn't an insult, as they make great games; but it takes away some of the depth and flavor, adds a bit of flash, and becomes much more appealing to modern game audiences. I prefer the original by far and its greater depth/complexity (and near perfect card graphical design, especially when accompanied by the deluxe board), but I also understand why this version is far more preferred.
Many of the elements come from Pax Porfiriana, Sierra Madre Games card game version of Lords of the High Frontier. They took the style of market drafting and card design from this game, as well as the concept of limited hand size and tableaux as maps for pieces to move on. These, of course, weren't unique in the industry as separate elements.
That brings me to what Pax Pamir innovated. It added using cards as a physical map and the tabeaux as a socio-political map. It added function overloaded pieces, where the location of player and non-player pieces changed their meaning and what they could do. It created a new template that spawned games like Pax Renaissance and Pax Emancipation and Pax Transhumanity. Pax Pamir 2E actually just "Stonemaier-ized" the game and made is more apporoachable to general board gamers.
Thank you for making a video that was closer to a true critique than most other board game review channels. It was a very pleasant video to watch, especially when it is about a game I love and highly recommend (even though I often seem critical of PP2E because it is a pale shadow compared to PP1E, but a brilliant sun in the night sky of other games).
Great explanation of the game and love the presentation style of your videos. Keep up the good work. kickstarter link for anyone thats interested in buying the game. www.kickstarter.com/projects/1243243962/pax-pamir-reprint?ref=nav_search&result=project&term=pax%20pamir#
Hope Lawrence of Arabia is a Character 😁
I bet he is XD - what did he do during the events?
Luis Velásquez why? This game is centred in the Afghanistan region not Arabia, where Lawrence acted as an intelligence officer during the First World War. So wrong place and wrong time for Lawrence to be a character in this game.