To adjust this statement to the research that Dr. Ramani just explained, a vulnerable narcissist would have both overt and covert expressions of that narcissism that can present as either grandiose and/or vulnerable... if I'm understanding correctly.
Here's a poem I wrote. Excuse my possible errors, English is not my first language: I know what monster dwells inside, he seems so calm, but he's in hide. I know his rage, sharpness of his claws, I have marks on my skin, Oh! How bloody it was! I know that beast, don't be deceived, it will rip you apart before he's reveled. You'll cry for help but no one will hear, because behind your back he started to smear. Run while you can, and put bridges to burn, so beast can't catch you, run and don't turn!
Hey great, I like your verses, keep up the good work! (i am not a native english speaker either, but i love to express myself in as many languages as possible)
Please look after yourself Dr Ramani. You're a wonderful, caring, empathic human being, as well as helping so many of us to understand and heal from the impact of Narcissistic abuse xx
You should save your empathy for the narcissist, they suffer the most. We should stop labelling others and focus on our similarities not our differences. I feel bad for anyone who can’t see past these differences.
@@beermilkshake I hear you, but it's ok to have empathy for the doc. Also, I agree that it is important to have empathy for the narcissist, but it's important to know that you can't help them if they don't want to help themselves, so you need to be able to spot this fact so that you can walk away from them and rid yourself of the unnecessary drama. Ramani helps people to understand this so that people accept this and stop trying to help people that clearly don't want it.
@@Leoo117 Thanks Leo, I agree with you, however I do want to draw attention that there are many narcissists that do want to change and they feel very marginalised by the slew of experts that are against them. Just read the comments in this video, people are seething with resentment. The content that Ramini puts out there educates and validates the victims but doesn’t do much in creating wisdom and compassion for for this troubled condition from the Narcissists perspective. I think the truth is that both people in these kind of relationships are victims. Just once I’d like to see a person like Ramini attempt to make contact with the other side and actually help the narcissist.
@@beermilkshake I understand. That's a good perspective. There is a woman on RUclips that not only admits to herself to being a narcissist, but understands her own narcissistic tendencies. She helps people to understand her issues, along with talking about the trials she faces when working on herself. She is very honest about her bad habits, and knows they are not appropriate, but still works to help herself. Many people relate to her. It's basically the type of channel that you are talking about. She is not an enabler, but instead she just shares her own problems, and the reasons for them and how she tries to do better. She is genuine. I can't remember her name, but if I find her channel again, I'll post it here for you. Edit: The woman I was referring to posted a video enabling and promoting cruelty in the workplace. This one video makes her channel not worth watching, because it is awful advice that leads to misery. Sorry, I didn't realize she held such awful beliefs until she posted that video.
I used to think the narcissist in my life wasn’t a narcissist because they didn’t show the grandiosity that was traditionally thought as a narcissistic trait… but I always felt something was terribly wrong. Turns out they’re the vulnerable type.
Same here. I always felt my relationship was somewhat "off key" but couldn't put my finger on what was wrong. I am more and more convinced I was dealing with a vulnerable narcissist
@@legeneralalexander6618 oh my god COMPLETELY agree… I couldn’t quite put my finger on what the problem was.. but something was so wrong and I was so so drained…. He was shy and had very low self esteem but was somewhat entitled and wanted attention from people who didn’t know him. He wanted to look cool. I never thought he was a narcissist, but he was typical vulnerable narcissist.
I can't think of any covert narc I've come across in my life who wasn't passive aggressive as well. They're almost impossible to reason with. I stopped trying.
Get well soon!! Thank you for this Video...I am a lot interested in the vulnerable narcisists,IT IS so difficult to understand this type of people...it took me almost thirty years to understand what was going on in my relation, thanks to your Videos iam more educated now ❤️
I feel you on this. I genuinely didn't understand passive-aggressive behavior until a bunch of deep studying. I always felt like the a-hole after exchanges with a vulnerable/covert narc relative, but could never make sense of how or why that person got upset by my comment. But as you said, they're impossible to reason with - they won't just come out & communicate what they are actually upset by. That's the passive-aggressive game. "You should know what you did already!" The amount of attention & energy they're able to suck out a perceived slight is mind-boggling to me.
@@princesskileyrae well said. It's amazing to me that every single passive aggressive covert narc I've come across wants you to read their mind and know what the problem is. If you do somehow figure what the problem is, they'll deny that's that it AND expect you to go along with the denied problem without question. There's no reasoning or compromise. Either you submit or they back off. It gets so frustrating to the point where you (I) explode and they blame you because you can't take their head games. Now, thanks to Dr. Ramani, as soon as I detect a covert narc, or any narc for that matter, I become the one who discards and walks away.
I know the world of science loves its categories however, out in the wild, it appears to me that all people with this Personality Disorder can use Grandiose, Covert, and Vulnerable tactics in getting what they want. All or some can be seen in a single individual. If they are to be labeled medically it seems they use the category the individual uses most often, but that does not mean the other tactics aren't used by that individual.
Well observed about scientists always trying to categorize in the little boxes they make up. Sometimes it's like they try to digitally input the time in a analogue wind up wristwatch.
100% and even us recovering codependents, so called “toxic empaths” can sometimes engage in these ego defense mechanisms if sufficiently triggered and/or if that codependent is lacking in healthy boundaries in order to get their attachment needs met. Tricky stuff indeed. Great content as usually, Dr. Ramani.
This helped. I’ve known since I was a toddler that something was “off” about my Dad. He maintained that his life fell apart when I was born. He held enormous grudges against his previous employers and couldn’t understand why he could never keep a job. Although his rages were ever-present, punishments from him were mostly passive-aggressive. There was a reason I chose to study psychology at collage, back in 1981, but the courses then offered no insight. It’s taken another 40 years for me to finally understand what I’ve been dealing with. I feel glad I’ve lived long enough to understand, but so many years have gone by in a haze of misunderstanding.
This channel, Dr Ramani and the comments are incredibly enlightening , we can’t undo the past but dissecting, Understanding the past is a road to healing. We all need each other🦋
I have only just realised recently that my alcoholic, abusive Dad was a covert narc. He died when I was 14, now I’m 42. I wish I could tell my empath Mum all about this, all the things I had learnt about narcs and empaths the past few years, but unfortunately, she passed away 13 years ago. He destroyed our lives!
Gosh I know this very feeling so well. It's the whole problem. Wblame ourselves because they say its us but we also blame ourselves because we don't know what it is and that all along we were the healthier ones
Dr ramani is so beautiful. Although This has nothing to do with the video itself, I just wanted to highlight that, in a world full of filter and glitter, Dr Ramani is such a breath of fresh air.
I got drawn into a friendship by a vulnerable narcissist (with overt traits), I got caught up in trying to fix her, and ended up being depleted and manipulated.
@@lovewhitey2027 You end up feeling duty bound and obliged. At least I learned, though, it could have been a relationship rather than a friendship, which would have been harder to experience. I now know more about what to look out for.
Omg. Same! Then I set her up with a guy friend (before I knew) She ran the game on him for years. They’ve broken up (she cut us both off) but his coddling and refusal to hold her accountable has damaged our friendship.
Same here - just went through 2 years of confusion and frustration. I am learning that I was trauma bonded to this person who treated me like shit - nice to put a label on them "vulnerable" narcissist - as I didn't think she was to the traits of the common/overt ones?!
"What I consider to be the issue of our time" - > Good to hear her affirm that. I really believe we're living through an epidemic of mental health abuse that's probably been going on for a long time but is only now getting openly recognised
Mental health issues are exploding in our world today. Television, internet, society, family court laws, feminism, porn.... it's all driving people to avoid bonding as a family. It's causing narcissistic values in both male and females to increase. Hate to see what dating will be like in 20 years. Marriage will cease to exist.
The covert behaviour kept me trying to please my boss, I felt bad letting her down. My dad was an overt narcicist. I was confused and thought my covert boss needed my support, and so did my (enabeling) co-workers. In the end I found out my covert boss was gaslighting me even more than I had recognised from my overt dad. I went throught the devaluation and discarding proces at work before I quit. It's the covert narcicism that made me really doubt myself because I didn't regognise it. Understanding the diffrent forms and expressions of narcicissm is very important! Thanks for this Dr Ramani, we need to understand this pattern in all it's 360 degrees....
It's the covert that really gets you. The overt you can surmise from the behavior and some how manage to keep it in check. The covert gets your trust and love first and then starts the work of tearing you apart. I have a covert narc in my family. She is of the vulnerable kind... until it turned to child abuse, which she conveniently forgot now that I bring it to her attention. In the wilderness she can go from covert vulnerable to grandiose in a nano second. I take responsibility for my life, the only thing I regret is not putting up boundaries sooner.
Exactly! My narc is a COVERT Grandiose narcissist. She is not shy at all. An extroverted social butterfly that is very successful. But her covert part is why it took me 37 years to figure it out!!! I wish more people would talk about the covert grandiose narc. I feel like people don’t believe they exist.
My girl is this same way, very covert but grandiose as well. Hiding certain things, or jumping back n forth between grandiosity and covertness. It's crazy, I'm about to go no contact again. Wish me luck! 🎉
The concept of narcissism being on a spectrum is essential for me. I’ve seen narcissistic traits in myself has been difficult to recognize prevailing traits however having two narcissistic parents and my last relationship being with a narcissist who ended up stalking me. I felt the other day that I was good at reading people, maybe more skilled at it then others however this skill did not lead me to predicting an outcome of behaviour (Humbling moment for me) this does make me anxious in wondering if I have grandiose tendencies however it isn’t surprising when the viewpoint of narcissism is most of what I had growing up. Or the debilitating shame I live with, constant using myself as a punching bag. Long story short as I study to become a counsellor, I very much appreciate your videos Dr. Ramani.
Thank you for breaking this down for us, Dr. Ramani. I have seen the switch with my brother during arguments where he would treat me with so much contempt. It’s as if I’m a piece of gum stuck on the bottom of someone’s shoes. Then he’d turn around and play the victim when called out on his abusive behavior. They think people are beneath them, but are so deeply insecure that anything will trigger them.
For me, the covert narcissist comes across as a people pleaser. They like to be in the spotlight to get the validation that they crave for, as other narcissists but at the same time, they pretend to be humble, simple, generous, over giving. The covert narcissist will take time to build a relationship/friendship with you. During this period, they will show their admiration and their devotion by helping you with everything that is you need. They will try to convince you that you are soulmates and that they understand you deeply. At the same time, you will see them being overly altruistic, maybe helping society by engaging in charities, activism. They feed the poor, take care of the homeless. All this makes you think how lucky you are for having met such a beautiful soul. You want to be by their side for ever. However, soon you notice how much they enjoy being invited in galas to talk about their achievements. But they don’t admit that. They still play the humble guy who doesn’t want all this. Who is beyond money, beyond fame and recognition, who wants to share the floor with other people. But their acts don’t match their words. You come to realise that this selfless soul is actually doing whatever it takes to be in the centre of attention. When you do something together be it at work or at home, they want to control everything about it. They just exerce their control in a more polite and implicit way, making you believe that your voice was heard whereas in reality you did what they wanted you to do. Covert narcissists have a smooth way of leading you on. They don’t shout, they don’t give orders. They are master actors. They convince you that you are together in this. What makes them a narcissist is that when the time comes for them to use you in order to draw certain benefits, they will do it without a second thought and you are not going to believe in your eyes. And when you stand up for yourself and raise your voice against them calling them for their phony identity, then you will see their rage for the first time and the mask will fall. Covert narcissists manipulate less with rage/exhibiting superiority and more with people pleasing behaviour/playing the eternal victim. They are not aggressive as overt narcissists. They are more cunning. What they both have in common is self-centered ness and lack of empathy. In the case of coverts, it will take you longer to find out.They knew what they wanted to get out of you from the beginning. They created a whole theatre play to fool you about who they are and their true motives. You will trust them with all your heart but when the time comes for them to prove their loyalty by choosing your bond over their personal gain, they will choose the latter with no remorse, without even taking any responsibility. Unlike the overt narcissist, they will have an eloquent excuse for doing so, rationalizing why they had to f@ck you over. They will pretend to be sorry about it because this is something that matches the image of modesty that they want to project but in reality they are not sorry at all. You will see them partying with your own money when they said they didn’t have enough to pay you back. You will see them being unfair and untrustworthy to other people as well. When the mask of the victim will fall, you will see the cruel smile of a perpetrator who managed to get what they want without deserving it. If you decide to unmask them run for your life. Moreover, People wonder why they end up hurt, seriously hurt, and even killed for their own actions. Cheating is a choice and there’s simply a lot of ignorance in the process.... Thank you so much for helping me out Metaspyhub@gmail. com. Your advice and services helped me so much. You are a lifesaver !!! The information you gave me about my cheating partner when you gave me access to his phone was everything I needed to get,.. thank you very much..
@@nicoledreamcr4666 "covert narcissist comes across as a people pleaser". She did not say that people pleasers are narcissists'. Curious why that came off that way to you...
@@RoseGacebuiit's a clever narcissistic advertisement. Starts off hoovering then intentionally confusing a covert narcissist with a people pleaser. So she had a right to question the bait and switch comment.
I think you should talk about the narcissist in comparison to the normal personality as it relates to responsibilities, crisis, validation, invalidation, issues that trigger actions or responses from both the normal healty mentality and the narcissist. I'm really not clear on the distinction between narcissistic action/reaction and a normal action/reaction. Examples will really help.
Dr Ramani Pls take care of that cold Have a cup of tea with honey and lemon Hit the sack with a few aspirins Socks 🧦 on your feet Get well greetings from Stockholm 😀 🇸🇪
I disagree ...I think ur describing just a person who doesn't enjoy socializing... Vulnerable narcissism is a lot more serious problem...u can not have one friend and prefer to be silent and not be a narcissist
Yep, my dad has since ghosted me since I started developing an awareness of the true nature of our one-sided relationship. They can sense when their cover is blown and will never accept responsibility for their part or are even open to honest dialogue. They either want the relationship to go back the way it was or to have no relationship.
Huge respect to you for addressing this and admitting to having improved your knowledge on this topic. You showed the true mindset of a scientist excited to share newly found knowledge. Remember there is nothing wrong with being wrong, all our knowledge is wrong to a degree and only ever represents our current most accurate conjectures. Being wrong should never make us feel shame, it should make us excited because falsification is the first step to incrementally improving our knowledge and hence our ability to solve our problems.
Oh my I’m so glad to hear this one. I am dealing with a covert narc. And most people can’t see right away what I dealt with. Before boundaries…I used to be drained all day or i would be in bed all day no energy. As soon as this person was out of my energy field I could literally get up and get ready and do what I need to do. Pay attention to the little things with covert narcs.
This is so brilliant because so many videos online say "a narcissist does X" all the time. Here, we get nuance as to how narcissism can present in response to specific situations.
The more I hear about narcissism, the more I feel like there's a degree of narcissism in all of us! Hopefully, over time - we can learn & change. I think when it's most dangerous is when the older someone gets, the worse their narcissism is! Then what?!
Yes of course there is. The point about pathological narcissists is that they take it too far. Everyone can be selfish sometimes. Everyone can be angry or upset. The narcissist is like that all the time and they have no empathy for others when they hurt them. Their personality is SO narcissistic that they become abusive to those around them. Normal people, even quite narcissistic normal people, aren't like that and will try to change. Narcissists cannot.
If you are emotionally mature enough to see that narcissistic traits can appear in anyone and are able to own your own narcissistic traits, chances are high that you are not a narcissist.
There is a level of narcissism in everyone but the difference is what you do with it. Do you go about loving yourself a little extra or do you use it to manipulate and deceive someone to give harm because you are an unhealed demon!
Miss Freedom- Fighter, Miss Boundary-Keeper, Miss Soul-Healer: I love you! The dedication and love to your craft shines through you. It has brought so many transformative moments in my life, and I thank you with all of my heart.
Now this makes way more sense - thanks again Dr. Ramani for clarifying everything! My mother always reminded me of the Kaonashi (No Face) from the movie Spirited away, or the Other Mother from Neil Gaiman's Coraline. She acted vulnerable to get her victims to bond with her out of compassion and empathy, and once they were trapped in her net, she would show her true face. She would try to force you to do her bidding, and when that failed, the victimized manipulation came into play.
That's what my mother does too. It messes with you so bad..! I swing between pity and loathing with her, and often doubt my own actions with her as i question if i am just being "mean" to her when i avoid or ignore her, but if i engage with her i regret it immediately. As Dr Ramani says "You can't win!" It is such an internal struggle tho - the guilt at seeing your mother's vulnerability and not doing anything to help vs the need for self-preservation knowing how it *always* goes. I think i have more work to do on my feelings of guilt & responsibility, and my boundaries. Thanks for sharing that insight - i love Hayao Miyazaki and Gaiman's work too! I find a lot of meaning and symbolism in old fairy tales also. 🙏😊
This talk changed my life. I thought I was crazy because i KNEW from my research and education that my partner exhibited narcissist tendencies. My counselor met my partner ( my partner insisted). Last week I timidly suggested with my extensive RUclips studying lol that my partner is a vulnerable narcissist with overt tendencies. He said I was spot on. It's hard, I remember our first argument he threatened to get a divorce and leave me. I told my friend the next day, "I think I love him more than he loves me." Thank you and a couple other psychologists on RUclips and my counselor. I can be okay with loving him more than anyone and let him go. I still cry lots but it's okay. It does get better
IF you're interested, I think this is the citation: Pincus, A. L., & Roche, M. J. (2011). Narcissistic grandiosity and narcissistic vulnerability. In W. K. Campbell & J. D. Miller (Eds.), The handbook of narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder: Theoretical approaches, empirical findings, and treatments (pp. 31-40). John Wiley & Sons, Inc
This just explained EVERYTHING that I was so confused about for the last 5 years! I thought I was going crazy with the grandiose and vulnerable personality style and then to also see so much overt and covert behaviour wow!!! I have never heard this explained so well! I lived this.. it is absolutely the truth! Thank you Dr. Ramini for your great work. Life changing! My life has changed for the better because of you.
Thank you for this Dr. Ramani. It's helped validate my suspicions about someone, who, seemingly having little to no grandiosity for a long while, I became more and more drained by until I became very ill. I suspect they were a vulnerable narcissist all along and I mistook that for humility, low confidence that needed boosting, and gave and gave emotional and practical support until I was all but depleted. Then, they started devaluing me. I believe now they were building up to discarding me, only I did it first. I really relieved I did and can feel my energy returning and mood lifting in waves, although I still crash and still have days of anxiety and grief. The main difference is now I am concerned about myself and my own wellbeing rather than being consumed with concern, worry and anxiety about THEIR wellbeing! It's like a huge weight is being lifted but there's some injuries from carrying that weight for so long that will take some time to heal. What does haunt me a bit though, is that I never saw them coming! Vulnerable narcissism badly needs to be brought into public awareness, so thanks and God bless to Dr. Ramani and all who work to educate us on this insidious disorder!
Thanks for explaining this so clearly, Especially The way you made the distinctions of the overt-what we can outwardly see - and the covert - what’s going on on the inside that we can’t see. And that’s an oversimplification of what you talked about, but it sticks out for me. Also, that the vulnerable of a more grandiose narcissist comes out when they are “out of sorts” which is a lot of the time. Ha ha. I’ve been through it.
OMG! So glad to finally hear someone make the distinction between the two and not lump them together as the same personality. And since coverts won't acknowledg or communicate any of their own issues, characteristics, or areas needing improvements they will instantly deny anything you might have observed and communicated to them. They will refuse to give your words any place or value.
I love it that she is growing out her hair. I find that it's empowering to see a strong intelligent woman being a normal woman and not the let's all look 25 again .. to be valued! Hate how women are seen for looks and not intelligence 😊😊
@@bereal6590 so so true! I love how she's helping me embrace myself inside and outside! Let's shatter the barriers to being our best selves together! 💜🙏🏽
It's SOOOO difficult to live with someone like this. Thanks for the great info. More on vulnerable narcs please!!! There's not much out there on it!!! Not in the way you explain everything you do!
YES!!! Finally the answer to my question! I have two narcissistic parents and i've spent a long time trying to figure it out as they both acted differently at different times and it was so confusing. My dad was so vulnerable, blaming, angry, passtive, abscent but then also sadistic, punitive, harsh, grandiose, arrogant, violent at times. Same with mom. It was so confusing. Now i kbow that they are both all the types at different times, baseline is they are both narcissists and hence toxic and abusive.
Very true. I spent 7years of my life trying to understand the covert stuff in my ex narc and all my life trying to understand my narc mom and I can tell you for a fact that I am the one who ended up very badly hurt each time. Dr. Ramani your videos are gold. Thank you.
tanks doc.. as a covert narc, I'm trying to heal through terapy.. but it's always feels like something missing... I'm so thankful for your explanation.. keep learning this subject and maybe one day... you find a cure.. for my demons and for other demons as well... o really appreciate your work doc... i really want to stop feel so entitled all the time... because I know i no better than anyone else.... and maybe some day I'm going to feel in that way..
Know that Jesus loves you. I am sure it must feel very dark but Jesus can bring light even to the darkest places and heal the deepest most painful Wounds so I pray that you find Him and see it for yourself. God bless you
The fact that you're willing to admit and repent is huge. Truly God bless you and I will be praying for you. Yes, God loves you and sent his son for you who was perfect but took on your sin so you could be free from sin. While there are still consequences for harmful actions where we harm self or others. There is then no condemnation to them that are "in" Christ Jesus. That's from Romans. Along with wise therapy that understands healing is out there to be had keep humbly praying and reading scripture asking God to show you the truth and set you free through the power of what Christ did on the cross.
When I heard your description of the overt and covert vulnerable narcissist, I just realised you’re describing one of the most draining and energy consuming colleagues I’ve ever worked for- suddenly it all makes sense!!!!
I have had these questions in my thoughts. Thank you for making this clear. My husband's behavior over the past few years has flipped to more of a depression, yet I could recognize his narcissistic behavior. This brings the package together, and it becomes clear about the dynamics of a Narcissist. Thank you.
This is brilliant, as always, Doc. Also, because so many of us in the survivor community are also Adult Children of Alcoholics (ACA)/Dysfunctional Families, we can struggle with some black and white thinking. We yearn to sort of clean it all up and get everything in the right box. This is such a good example of how nuanced and varied these issues are in actuality.
@@lulumoon6942 Thank you so much because that was a typo and because you voiced in I was able to correct it. Oopse! What I should have written was (Adult Children of Alcoholics (ACA)/Dysfunctional Families)
@@lulumoon6942 She's the best! I wish I was able to attend her workshop today. I have a side thing I do as a life passion to educate, support and empower us abuse survivors where I create and curate content. I regularly post Dr. Ramani's videos and make my own inspirational memes. It's fairly new and small but it's a sweet, growing group if you'd like to check it out. Facebook.com/thenarcninja @thenarcninja. God bless and may we all continue to be restored through healing.
Off topic, I love that you present yourself with gray hair. You are so genuine and confident. We really do not need all the products that commercials/consumerism has conditioned us/society to believe. You are a beautiful Soul! You have helped me and others so much! Thank you Dr. Ramani❤🌏
That makes a lot of sense, and really helps me understand the picture better. I was lost on why I was seeing both sets of traits at different times, and this really clarifies. Also, I find it warming, and I trust you more, because you said "Oopsie I got this bit incorrect". I have a tonne of respect for that. Thank you Doctor R and team for making this video.
Yes Shelly.👍🏽 clears it up for me also. Sometimes labels are thrown around so much that terminology gets lost in the confusion . And like you, I SO APPRECIATE Dr Ramani clearing this up for us.❤️🙏🏽
Truthfully the more and more I watch from you the more I realize how much I want to kick these tendencies. Growing up with a narcissistic mother and mother figures really messes with a growing mind. Be healthy Dr. Ramani I'm fighting my covert tendencies and learning to control my overt reactions while just absorbing this new 'vulnerable' terminology to take into account for curbing a generation of narcissistic traits. To those fighting or dealing with such individuals with these traits or tendencies keep learning and use extreme patience on unweaving the spider web of traits learned and to provide support for those "undoing the vulnerabilities" cast upon them to battle the NPD. I'm trying this on my own as I feel I know my own process and just need the terminology to pinpoint where I need to criticize my own invulnerabilities to crawl my way out of that dark and heavy mindset. Good luck and keep learning and trusting your instincts. I find unconditional love from my dad's moms family really is helping me to heal from the destruction caused from the past to be able to curb my insecurity to slowly build on living that empathic life. My perception is that a narcissist is created after they're completely destroyed mentally and brainwashed emotionally to blindly learn at an energy level where spiritually they will learn toxic principles. Canadian First Nations endured this through the fallout of assimilation. This is how I believe my parents both acquired this mental illness. Be it covert or grandiose. This is my perception on what I've learned on indigenous struggling with narcissistic traits. Hope this helps for any research purposes Dr. Ramani. Have a good day!
It's all over the place but once in a blue moon I'll have this crazy idea to speak what I think and just ramble on about maneuvering my way through my own mind. Trying to figure out how to say stuff without overtly looking for validation and covertly looking for that validation through favors or whatever else narcissists use for supply. Using myself to provide intellectual information is how I find my own validation to be able to spread my perception on what I find useful to share different points of view like in a narrative 3rd person perspective. Laying all my thoughts out and working on becoming as genuine as possible for myself.
You may have some " traits" because you had to learn the narc language to survive...but a full blown narc does not think they have a problem...they can not introspect...
Such interesting stuff. When someone lives with it, sometimes you can't see the trees for the forest... thank you for being our guide to clear a path to see where we're going and where we've been.
Thank you for giving me the language to understand what I have been through. I saw your interview a few days ago with women of impact and I couldn’t stop crying. Now, I just want to protect my children from him because we’re still married.
Vulnerable = Actions are sourced from TRAUMA - Low Self-Esteem Grandiose = Sourced from EGO - VERY HIGH Self-Esteem Overt = Outwardly expressed attitudes and actions driven by the covert feelings Covert = Internal Feelings that motivate Overt Actions... whether they are aware of it or not.
So what this means is that all NARCs will use these 4 MODES of thought, behavior to monitor, manage their needs . This information has verified the 9 years of living with my X NARC 27 years ago ! It took me 7 years to learn these modes with no knowledge of Narcissistic behavior. After getting familiar with the repetition of mode swings I started using them to mirror my narc and try to force another mode swing that the narc didn't want to go to. As you could imagine. That was the beginning of the END. " I survived "..
I feel like I never really understood or dealt with my narcissistic abuse caused by my parents, then boyfriends over 5 years. Your videos have been such a revelation for me, and have helped me to understand myself and the others around me a lot better. Thank you for putting so much good information out there. I can't afford to see a therapist, but at least I can be better educated. :)
Wow this explains so much! I was so confused because I know that my ex was definately a covert narcissist how sneaky and subtle he was! And yes at times he played victim and vulnerble! But at the same time!Very out going, love to be seen, charming, nice looking, the helper, arogant, life of the party! Etc... That's when I often got confused because they described a vulnerable covert very isolated and socially awkward, which was not my ex at all! But now that its broken down this way I could totally understand! I was dealing with a Grandious, Vulnerable, Covert Narcissist! Which in my opinion is the worst combination of all forms! Thank you Dr. Ramani for this clarification
Such important detail. The grey areas are constantly dizzying but hearing it’s ok to see someone slip in and out from grandiose to vulnerable and even overt to suddenly letting us see a tiny bit of their covert usually hidden stuff helps me not feel nuts. Haha. Thanks Doc. 💪🏼💙
I have nothing but love and gratitude for you Dr Ramani. The world is a way better place for you being in it, your contribution to our health and well being is immeasurable. Your work and videos have been life changing for me.I 100% agree that Narcissism is the issue of our time (sadly) Once you have educated yourself on this subject you start becoming aware of this fact. I have been deeply impacted by Narcissism, as a scapegoated Highly Sensitive person from a family with a Narcissistic parent, and then subsequent relationships and friendships. All I can say is thank you from the bottom of my heart!
We have to be extremely careful to not label actual discrimination victims as vulnerable narcissists. In fact many narcissists will actually project that toxicity onto people who are facing real oppression. For example, if someone brings up how they are facing racism or sexism, toxic people will accuse them of having a “victim mentality” to avoid acknowledging systems of oppression in the world. We also need to realize that if you are being abused by a narcissist who constantly tells you no one likes, loves, helps, or cares about you it’s very easy to internalize that and start believing it which is a tactic of the abuser to make you appear like the narcissistic one when in reality they have been planting those seeds for years. Having low self esteem can be a sign of vulnerable narcissism but it can also be a symptom of narcissistic abuse syndrome so we must be very careful not to mislabel actual abuse victims💯
The fact is a person should get rid of victim mentality regardless!! A part of the process is stop trying to prove yourself!! It is a number one shield from all of the toxic environment… Stop over explaining, pleasing, trying to convince people and earning validation.
After listening to your videos, it gave me the courage to tell my grown son. He has accused me of making it all up because my mother was very much a better grandmother than she was a mother. He has only shown me anger and dismissed my experiences. I am crushed. He only saw her as loving and giving., and believes none of what my experiences were. My heart is broken.
First, thank you for working through this week for all is us even though you are under the weather, Dr. Ramani. I hope you are better soon. Second, this clears up the description of my brother - he is a master of passive aggressive magnanimous behavior. This masks his underlying cruelty to all but his target. It’s rather impressive. He likes achievements and certificates displayed and framed. He presents as caring and a “got it together” guy with a high achieving family. And yet, he cannot consider any idea but his own as plausible. He is unable to trust proven achievers in a given realm to do their job well without his guidance and approval. This is especially evident when he has no experience in said realm, but will insist his opinion is credible and must be followed. Covert/Grandiose.
I never understood my cousin who I grew up with like a sister. I loved her and always wanted us to be close. Took me decades to understand why I allowed myself to be treated so poorly. I understand now she is a vulnerable Narc....understanding is freeing.
So-o helpful! Thank you, Dr Ramani. Now I understand my mother was a vulnerable narcissist. As you say, all the patterns were apparent. But she was characterised by the victimised, passive aggressive, manipulative style. And I didn't know what was going on.
I am new to this narcissist theory and this was an extremely helpful video. I am at the "trying to make sense of what he did to me" stage, and this shifted me forward some in my journey. Thank you!
Freaking love it! This is the same kind of complexity that arose out of Myers Briggs personality test work, once they identify introvert versus extrovert, and intuitive vs sensing, that now you've got so many combinations the model loses its simplicity. As someone who has been studying this vigorously in an attempt to heal from it, I've been vocalizing and journaling all my thoughts and motivations to see where the needs for grandiosity and validation come from, all while trying to reprogram the inner belief that I don't *need* anything, I'm whole, human, and I don't need a good reason to feel good about myself.
This was very helpful in understanding the complexity of narcissistic personalities. It is clearly multi-layered and it's helpful to know that they can vacillate between covert, overt, vulnerable, and grandiose. It seems to me that the hallmarks include a lack of empathy or understanding for anyone, gaslighting, blame-shifting, scapegoating, and a whole ton of lying and hiding the truth they do not want to see. I have known for many years that my father has undiagnosed NPD. I still unravel the impact of the disease on everyone around him. Now that my mother is incapacitated with dementia, he cannot hide his extreme control and inability to accept the world as it is becoming versus the world as he insists it needs to be. Your videos have been a big help to me both as a clinician and the daughter of a man with NPD. (And then there was my ex-husband too!)
There is a Delft blue wisdom tile on my bathroom wall with the answer to narcissists, "You are confusing me with someone who gives a shit". I doff my bralet to you, Dr. Ramani for your clarity, accuracy and luminous spirit! Thank you.
Finally something that makes sense to me and my situation. At the end of the day, its narcissim either in grandiose or vunerable form depending on their situation at the time. So in one conversation we can have " you wont find anyone better than me to I feel incredibly lonely - I dont think it depends on how they feel, its more on what they think the situation calls for to get what they want. And they will gauge the responses. It seems to me what they want is to feel love and adulation once they have that they can move on to step 2. getting what they want whatever that is. And how long they persist depends on what you have that makes them feel good or potentially feel good. Observe and dont absorb is the best way to deal with these people. I think George Simons is correct when he says character ( and lack of it) is the issue of our time. His description of people with with personality disorders as character deficient is a good way to put it.
What about the dualistic behavior of many narcissists -- one personality for those closest to them who threaten their ability to control the situation, and for surface-level people (close people tend to have expectations that surface-level people do not)? Very distinct personalities can exist. For example, all the blame from the wounded narcissist could be directed at the person who has done the most for them in their lives, but surface level people are given passes. IOW, one personality can be an obvious narcissist, but another isn't obviously a narcissistic personality at all. These people are VERY DANGEROUS because they may show the attractive personality to real a person in, then flip the script after, say, marriage paperwork is signed.
This right hear, is a great example of how narcissism is basically a gateway mental illness to many more mental illnesses. A point that needs to made more imo. What your describing is the stepping stones to multiple personality disorder.
@Cooper Young, hi. Narcs are master manipulators. It may superficially resemble dissociative personality disorder/multiple identities, but it usually isn't. It's acting, faking, manipulation and the narc is aware of it all. They switch tactics, styles, and personas with ease and it's all under the control of one personality. They're always holding up a false image in order to get what they want (attention, power, influence) so they get really good at reading a room and slipping quickly from one false face to another.
@Wellness Path For Me it's terrible how abusers work. They carefully cultivate a nice public image. They do it to lull their victims into a false sense of security. They also do it to escape blame and public scrutiny, and to continue their abuse behind closed doors. "Oh, no, your parent/sibling/spouse could never hurt you. S/he's such a nice person!" It leaves the people closest to them, their victims, isolated and cut off from outside aid and support.
Dr. Ramani spoke about getting out before you get entangled but that seems impossible when you’re dealing with master manipulators! They have to entangle you in order to feed off of you.
@@richellelee1086 Well, that's just it... you can see the "surface-level personality," and only that personality, going on for at least 5 years. I *know* this, but I'm not gonna say how I know it. The switch didn't flip until the person thought they had the leverage to flip it. If course, narcissism isn't taught to the plebs, perhaps because it is being engineered in us on purpose! Iron overload toxicity, bio-copper deficiency, and magnesium deficiency all basically run together in the vast majority of cases. Those three things together appear to produce a hyper-active sympathetic nervous system and excess iron definitely triggers the NLRP3 "fear sensor" protein in the cells. Fe-ar, get it? Fe -- iron. Hidden in plain site. Here a couple links that I think are key, just note that "copper toxicity" is really a deficiency of bio-copper (hence an excess of the non-bio-copper form), and refers to iron overload, bio-copper deficiency, and magnesium deficiency. If you really want to delve into the depths of the "rabbit hole," there is a Biblical prophecy aspect to all of this, too. Let me know if you want to hear it. Morley Robbins - My Theory Of Everything (Iron Overload) -- ruclips.net/video/Iq94ROB5qEs/видео.html Understanding Copper Toxicity (same as iron overload): ruclips.net/video/QyV4TgXCGC0/видео.html Iron Homeostasis and the Inflammatory Response -- www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3108097/ INORGANIC Metallic Iron Filings in Cereal Video -- ruclips.net/video/HGbwFtmJOi4/видео.html Alert For Parents - Heavy Metals In Gerber's Cereal - Can't Verify, But You Can -- ruclips.net/video/qw_zIswTTE0/видео.html Note -- NO, this iron is not the same as iron in a bean or spinach. Anyone that says it is needs to pull metallic iron filings out of beans and spinach. They can't. You can also search out the effects of "copper toxicity" and "calcium shell," but those are both basically iron overload, bio-copper deficiency, and magnesium deficiency (they all tend to run together due to the biochemical nature of the body). Narcissists benefit the system in a number of ways. Some are so toxic and entitled that they create a tremendous drain on society (which is leveraged into government front power grabs). Others are very motivated by money because that temporarily fills their vacuum, so they will do ANYTHING for cash, effectively become the minions of those who control the global money systems. They don't ask why. And they drain families... and the Money Power Families view every other family on the planet as a threat to their "most fit" status, so the less powerful every other family is, the better.
This is a more complex listen, but we'll worth it. Every time I think I've come to fully understand the different types of Narcississim I hear something new that truly resonates with my experiences both in love and family. I could agree more that this is 1 million percent the issue of our time.
The covert narcissistic colleague I know makes very little effort to interact with other people in real life. In the beginning, everyone in the office just thought that he was shy and socially awkward.. but within time, I got to know him better and realised he was actually always actively observing everyone and had opinions about everyone and everything (mostly in a judgmental way). And he is very active on social media. Now I know his quietness was just a technique to make people wonder about him and eventually to make others approach him. Because through this, he finds a sense of superiority, which feeds his ego. It’s his way of manipulating others around him. They are such dangerous people. They confuse all the people with good intentions who try to help them fit into a new environment (because they made it like as if they needed help very much). And eventually they hurt those good people because of their fragile ego and they are never truly sorry. It took me so long to get over and understand everything. If not because of all the healthy people in my life, I’d probably still be in the mist feeling so confused about such a person. Be careful with new people you come across in life. If what they do and say in private and in public, on social media and in real life is inconsistent, then double up your guard.
i’m the same way tho..maybe he just didn’t want to be bothered. some people really prefer their own company, introverted and have a mind of their own that forms judgements inside jokes random imagination daydreams bright ideas etc. we’re all observant and we all judge off what you say judge even if we have the conscious to be like”nah that ain’t right i shouldn’t of said that.” that person just told you what they were thinking and you’re mad bc you didn’t think that or had the slightest clue. irony is you judged that person thinking bc they were mild mannered and meak and quiet that they didn’t have a mind of their own. no one has to wear their heart on their sleeve and it’s no ones responsibility to make others comfortable with their quiet demeanor. shit at least they told you. goes to show you how aloof they were cuz if they were really intellectually manipulating you they wouldn’t have even told you in fear of putting themselves in a bad position. Point is I am that person. I case the joint everywhere I go. And I pick and choose who I want to speak toI don’t go out my way to observe. I have eye balls and I can see. I am very good at reading people but not to manipulate them I actually don’t want to be bothered tbh. Most people don’t appeal to my senses or my energy. I just have no interest in talking with people make or female period. Probably why narcissist pick me out ironically lmao. I like my own company and it’s better to be quiet about the fact that I am not a team player, I know I’m sensitive, I know I am moody as hell.. I’m self aware and I can do bad by my damn self.
Well they have a real fear of rejection. So if YOU goto them, they know you won't really reject them then. You're approaching them. If they goto YOU and you give them this dirty @ss look like "uh why are you here?" this will make them sustain a narcissist injury badly. And to take one of those while on the clock and NEW at a job.. Isn't good for them. If they have a real disdain for EVERYONE, this could be an actual psychopath. No fuel required hence why they don't need anyone. They fuel themselves. Always goal oriented.
@@daviedood2503 It’s not as black & white as that. This particular colleague hardly interacted with anyone else but in comparison showed lots of interest in me in the beginning .. I guess it was because of my very obvious empathetic approach to people around me. That was how I got to see the private side of him as we had interactions outside of work. But even that, he was still very secretive about his own private life… Although he did very very diligently put up all his sport achievements on his social platforms and interact very actively with his followers.. Gradually I found that the so called friendship was never reciprocal and I was the only one who was always there for him when he was in need but never the other way around. And that he was also always lying by omission. And that he was never empathetic towards people around him. (He would be literally sitting in front of his desk, focusing on his own work while the entire office is helping each other moving furniture around or unpacking boxes).. So I tried many times wanting to distant him, but every time he just kept on saying “I don’t have many friends and I want us to be friends, and I’ll be better.” … But nothing was ever better. It almost felt like you’re running a loop again and again. Nothing ever changed. It was so emotionally draining. Like being with a very needy and immature baby… Until one day he made a mistake at work and got criticised by his supervisor. He told me about it so I stayed behind after work trying to find a way to help him. But when I was only laying down the facts(of him making the mistake), he lost it and called me being unsupportive( his actual words were much harsher than this)… That was when I had my epiphany that I didn’t deserve to be treated like this and I had to stay away from such a person. I didn’t know anything about narcissism back then. But thanks to him now I do. Consider it as a valuable lesson learnt.
Thank You, thank You, thank You! I am 62 years old. For the last two decades i Have cared for my aging parents. For the last 3 years my aging father lived in my house (we had then moved to be closer to my brother and cousin) and I cared for him until he sadly passed from als. After that, i blew my top! I critizised my brother and my closest cousin (both the youngest by 10 years, and pampered) for neglecting my father during his last years. All hell broke loose! I had to cut relations with both of them! I also found your videos, and thanks to them i could keep my sanity! I now understand that i Have Been brought up in a narcissistic Family system. Thanks to You i now am starting to see that it has a lot to do with me having abusive Relationships in the past and why i during the years Have put up with "friends" that also were abusive. My dear old father and I had many talks about my brother and cousins behavior. He often told me that i was "too kind"! Thanks to You, im starting to see the whole picture! I Will stop being too kind (i Will not strive to be awful, but i Will be much, much more careful of Who i let into my life in the future!) And I Will continue to learn more about narcissism and its effects. I am forever grateful to You!
So glad you touched on the point that clinicians argue narcissists have all 4 types running, Because I see fragments of each in a few of the narcissists I know well. It was confusing, but now cleared up - thank you! Thank you too, for owning your own misunderstanding of it. You are the quincetential decent, humble human being, and I appreciate you.
Based. I'm a narc magnet & was dating one who is extremely grandiose to the extent of operating on a legitimately delusional level of beliefs while simultaneously being made the victim of *EVERY* "system" in place. He got a 3rd DUI & for some reason believes *everyone* involved in his alcohol treatment program has improperly labeled him. I didn't know about the DUI stuff when we met. As more & more came out; I stopped liking him. His behavior changed without my attention, & now almost every time I run into him; he starts sobbing about how much he's learning about himself & how sorry he is for the past & blah blah blah I I I me me me... they never change. Even when society punishes them for unacceptable behavior, it's not their fault. I straight up told the guy (54M) I don't like or respect him anymore. It's not fixable. His not being able to get over me is his problem. I recently got a brutal medical diagnosis & haven't even processed it yet, but the Narc still blows my phone up with pages of "I" statements about all the important things he's doing. Then he flips to vulnerable & injured. I don't have the energy to deal with that person & he both understand that & doesn't care. I'm so glad to see that she covered how much overlap happens. Nothing in science ever fits so neatly into a perfect category.
Covert Narcissist is how I feel, at least how you describe the internal experience, but I don't think I use these excuses. I've mostly sat and quietly blamed and hated myself. I always got projected on by my parents so I developed a fear of appearing to be self-interested. It actually took me a very long time to actually acknowledge that the problem was I was being horribly abused, rather than it all being somehow my fault. SSRIs really helped with the constantly self-vitriol though. Some of it might just be I'm currently trapped on the edge of a toxic family and living with people who believe I am suffering from a non-specific psychosis rather than choosing to believe me, and I went my entire life being completely invalidated at every turn. I think I might come across as desperate to be believed and it makes me less believable? People outside the family seem to treat me with dignity and respect, but I can't tell if it's genuine or not. It's such a stark contrast from how family treats me, and I can't tell if it's me or them.
Cognitive dissonance, split perceptions, duality, dilemma, confusion, gaslighting, doubt, lying, mind-games and deception. All tactics of the covert N. to keep the person unstable, confused, second-guessing, discombobulated and disorientated. A pendulum of doubt and conviction is what we swing on as we try to make sense of our experience. Potentially, one day the scales finally tip and conviction is reached, you have come to the conclusion that your entire family is under a toxic spell, you are the lowly scapegoat, and your mother / father is the wicked leader at the head of the cult. There has been an orchestrated campaign of death by a thousand cuts against you, for decades and counting... The way you are noticing being treated by people outside of family is real, but there is cognitive dissonance and a disconnect from natural intuition because you have been gaslight and manipulated so much within the toxic family, this is why total no contact is necessary to heal from the dissonance by never experiencing it again in your life, no where near mentally ill people who are hell bent on manipulating you / destroying you.
This is a video that really clarified things with me. I may not have much of a reason to discuss the labels but I think I had thought my husband was a covert narcissist when in actuality his behavior is really more of a vulnerable narcissist with mostly covert demonstrations and a few sprinkles of grandiosity here and there. The grandiosity comes out more around other people.
This explains so much. I was nearly destroyed in my early 20's by a relationship with a young man who seemed to flip from vulnerable to grandiose. I could never figure out where that sweet, pitiful boy went.
Ma'am ... You have defined very clearly, the minute differences of Narcissim... Thank you so much for educating people, who doesn't know about Narcissim and don't know that from what actually they are going through. Thanks for educating and saving people.
Thank you Dr. Ramani for staying so current. As I have studied this over the last five years I have been coming to the same conclusion. I've been finding that as the understanding of narcissism advances it is fitting better with what I've experienced and what I have personally thought based on what I've seen. I can see the refining in understanding making more sense to me than some of what was previously thought of by many as settled thought. Especially when you are showing us the latest in what is scientific { able to be reliably repeated by different scientists performing the same experiment } are you proving you are of the best of the best. Keep keeping us informed on any new developments that can be considered more in the line of hard science not soft because you are correct, this is THE issue of our time.
This is so helpful. The summary at the end especially. Totally explains how some people can be missed by a usual narcissist radar because they don't spend a lot of time in the overt/grandiose expressions
Thank you so much for explaining this. I can now see that the guy I was recently seeing was an overt vulnerable and covert grandiose narcissist.... the complete opposite of my ex husband who was overt grandiose and covert vulnerable. I mistook these seemingly opposite characteristics for this guy being “different” to my ex and therefore good (he seemed so sensitive and empathetic at first), which left me feeling confused when his actions didn’t match his words. I understand now. Also please take a day off! We can all wait
Shout-out from Germany. While I am not in a deep crisis, you content has helped me a lot to understand a situation at my workplace. Thanks and keep the good work going.
Dr Ramani you Aced it ! I always felt that there was a connection to this Madness and thanks to you and all of your colleagues We have a possible answer to a lot of many of our Questions ( They May go from one extreme to another to another... as long the need dictates). Thanks very much.
Covert narcissists are not always shy or introverted. They’re just hiding what they do, because they know people would not agree with it.
EXACTLY
Yes. Totally agree. They're just snakes slithering around the corners, staying out of sight.
I just realized I always find your comment in Dr Ramani video! I'll check your channel
Hiding what they do.
To adjust this statement to the research that Dr. Ramani just explained, a vulnerable narcissist would have both overt and covert expressions of that narcissism that can present as either grandiose and/or vulnerable... if I'm understanding correctly.
Here's a poem I wrote. Excuse my possible errors, English is not my first language:
I know what monster
dwells inside,
he seems so calm,
but he's in hide.
I know his rage,
sharpness of his claws,
I have marks on my skin,
Oh! How bloody it was!
I know that beast,
don't be deceived,
it will rip you apart
before he's reveled.
You'll cry for help
but no one will hear,
because behind your back
he started to smear.
Run while you can,
and put bridges to burn,
so beast can't catch you,
run and don't turn!
Hey great, I like your verses, keep up the good work! (i am not a native english speaker either, but i love to express myself in as many languages as possible)
😔
Well-written 💯❤️
@Amber maillet good one
Whoa, that's really good. :)
Please look after yourself Dr Ramani. You're a wonderful, caring, empathic human being, as well as helping so many of us to understand and heal from the impact of Narcissistic abuse xx
You should save your empathy for the narcissist, they suffer the most. We should stop labelling others and focus on our similarities not our differences. I feel bad for anyone who can’t see past these differences.
@@beermilkshake I hear you, but it's ok to have empathy for the doc. Also, I agree that it is important to have empathy for the narcissist, but it's important to know that you can't help them if they don't want to help themselves, so you need to be able to spot this fact so that you can walk away from them and rid yourself of the unnecessary drama. Ramani helps people to understand this so that people accept this and stop trying to help people that clearly don't want it.
@@Leoo117 Thanks Leo, I agree with you, however I do want to draw attention that there are many narcissists that do want to change and they feel very marginalised by the slew of experts that are against them. Just read the comments in this video, people are seething with resentment. The content that Ramini puts out there educates and validates the victims but doesn’t do much in creating wisdom and compassion for for this troubled condition from the Narcissists perspective. I think the truth is that both people in these kind of relationships are victims. Just once I’d like to see a person like Ramini attempt to make contact with the other side and actually help the narcissist.
@@beermilkshake I understand. That's a good perspective. There is a woman on RUclips that not only admits to herself to being a narcissist, but understands her own narcissistic tendencies. She helps people to understand her issues, along with talking about the trials she faces when working on herself. She is very honest about her bad habits, and knows they are not appropriate, but still works to help herself. Many people relate to her. It's basically the type of channel that you are talking about. She is not an enabler, but instead she just shares her own problems, and the reasons for them and how she tries to do better. She is genuine. I can't remember her name, but if I find her channel again, I'll post it here for you.
Edit: The woman I was referring to posted a video enabling and promoting cruelty in the workplace. This one video makes her channel not worth watching, because it is awful advice that leads to misery. Sorry, I didn't realize she held such awful beliefs until she posted that video.
@@Leoo117 yes please do! I would like to see that
I used to think the narcissist in my life wasn’t a narcissist because they didn’t show the grandiosity that was traditionally thought as a narcissistic trait… but I always felt something was terribly wrong. Turns out they’re the vulnerable type.
Howd you find out they were the vulnerable type
@@megalightsfan4948There's a label on the inside of everyone's underwear
@amamdasoares1798. Same here. I couldn't figure out what was wrong & why. He seemed so nice. I'm so thankful to have learned about this now.
Same here. I always felt my relationship was somewhat "off key" but couldn't put my finger on what was wrong. I am more and more convinced I was dealing with a vulnerable narcissist
@@legeneralalexander6618 oh my god COMPLETELY agree… I couldn’t quite put my finger on what the problem was.. but something was so wrong and I was so so drained…. He was shy and had very low self esteem but was somewhat entitled and wanted attention from people who didn’t know him. He wanted to look cool. I never thought he was a narcissist, but he was typical vulnerable narcissist.
I can't think of any covert narc I've come across in my life who wasn't passive aggressive as well. They're almost impossible to reason with. I stopped trying.
Get well soon!! Thank you for this Video...I am a lot interested in the vulnerable narcisists,IT IS so difficult to understand this type of people...it took me almost thirty years to understand what was going on in my relation, thanks to your Videos iam more educated now ❤️
I feel you on this. I genuinely didn't understand passive-aggressive behavior until a bunch of deep studying. I always felt like the a-hole after exchanges with a vulnerable/covert narc relative, but could never make sense of how or why that person got upset by my comment. But as you said, they're impossible to reason with - they won't just come out & communicate what they are actually upset by. That's the passive-aggressive game. "You should know what you did already!" The amount of attention & energy they're able to suck out a perceived slight is mind-boggling to me.
@@princesskileyrae well said. It's amazing to me that every single passive aggressive covert narc I've come across wants you to read their mind and know what the problem is. If you do somehow figure what the problem is, they'll deny that's that it AND expect you to go along with the denied problem without question. There's no reasoning or compromise. Either you submit or they back off. It gets so frustrating to the point where you (I) explode and they blame you because you can't take their head games.
Now, thanks to Dr. Ramani, as soon as I detect a covert narc, or any narc for that matter, I become the one who discards and walks away.
Exactly. I’m dealing with such boss right now. It’s making me feel crazy, unsecure, despondent.
@@mariannami8049 better get get out as fast as you can. Things won't change with this person as they have power and control.
I know the world of science loves its categories however, out in the wild, it appears to me that all people with this Personality Disorder can use Grandiose, Covert, and Vulnerable tactics in getting what they want. All or some can be seen in a single individual. If they are to be labeled medically it seems they use the category the individual uses most often, but that does not mean the other tactics aren't used by that individual.
10:58 Ramani agrees
Well observed about scientists always trying to categorize in the little boxes they make up. Sometimes it's like they try to digitally input the time in a analogue wind up wristwatch.
Agrees with my field notes
A lot of us who also observe these creatures in the wild do agree.
100% and even us recovering codependents, so called “toxic empaths” can sometimes engage in these ego defense mechanisms if sufficiently triggered and/or if that codependent is lacking in healthy boundaries in order to get their attachment needs met. Tricky stuff indeed. Great content as usually, Dr. Ramani.
This helped. I’ve known since I was a toddler that something was “off” about my Dad. He maintained that his life fell apart when I was born. He held enormous grudges against his previous employers and couldn’t understand why he could never keep a job. Although his rages were ever-present, punishments from him were mostly passive-aggressive. There was a reason I chose to study psychology at collage, back in 1981, but the courses then offered no insight. It’s taken another 40 years for me to finally understand what I’ve been dealing with. I feel glad I’ve lived long enough to understand, but so many years have gone by in a haze of misunderstanding.
This channel, Dr Ramani and the comments are incredibly enlightening , we can’t undo the past but dissecting, Understanding the past is a road to healing. We all need each other🦋
I hear you and know what you mean. This knowledge 40 years ago might have helped my life too.
I have only just realised recently that my alcoholic, abusive Dad was a covert narc. He died when I was 14, now I’m 42. I wish I could tell my empath Mum all about this, all the things I had learnt about narcs and empaths the past few years, but unfortunately, she passed away 13 years ago. He destroyed our lives!
Hm sounds like me until God changed my heart but then I went back to my old ways again. The passive aggressiveness is quite annoying
Gosh I know this very feeling so well. It's the whole problem. Wblame ourselves because they say its us but we also blame ourselves because we don't know what it is and that all along we were the healthier ones
Dr ramani is so beautiful. Although This has nothing to do with the video itself, I just wanted to highlight that, in a world full of filter and glitter, Dr Ramani is such a breath of fresh air.
I got drawn into a friendship by a vulnerable narcissist (with overt traits), I got caught up in trying to fix her, and ended up being depleted and manipulated.
Always they are very stealth 🥷 & dangerous always a complainer victim so you try to help and Your caught 👹🤬
@@lovewhitey2027 You end up feeling duty bound and obliged. At least I learned, though, it could have been a relationship rather than a friendship, which would have been harder to experience. I now know more about what to look out for.
Omg. Same! Then I set her up with a guy friend (before I knew) She ran the game on him for years. They’ve broken up (she cut us both off) but his coddling and refusal to hold her accountable has damaged our friendship.
@@mojadah10all of this is the story I’m living right now. It feels so surreal.
Same here - just went through 2 years of confusion and frustration. I am learning that I was trauma bonded to this person who treated me like shit - nice to put a label on them "vulnerable" narcissist - as I didn't think she was to the traits of the common/overt ones?!
"What I consider to be the issue of our time" - > Good to hear her affirm that. I really believe we're living through an epidemic of mental health abuse that's probably been going on for a long time but is only now getting openly recognised
Agreed
Is it that the Covert feels sorry for themselves?
Yes! Totally agree with this comment
Better late than never. God bless RUclips.
Mental health issues are exploding in our world today. Television, internet, society, family court laws, feminism, porn.... it's all driving people to avoid bonding as a family. It's causing narcissistic values in both male and females to increase. Hate to see what dating will be like in 20 years. Marriage will cease to exist.
The covert behaviour kept me trying to please my boss, I felt bad letting her down. My dad was an overt narcicist. I was confused and thought my covert boss needed my support, and so did my (enabeling) co-workers. In the end I found out my covert boss was gaslighting me even more than I had recognised from my overt dad. I went throught the devaluation and discarding proces at work before I quit. It's the covert narcicism that made me really doubt myself because I didn't regognise it. Understanding the diffrent forms and expressions of narcicissm is very important! Thanks for this Dr Ramani, we need to understand this pattern in all it's 360 degrees....
It's the covert that really gets you. The overt you can surmise from the behavior and some how manage to keep it in check. The covert gets your trust and love first and then starts the work of tearing you apart. I have a covert narc in my family. She is of the vulnerable kind... until it turned to child abuse, which she conveniently forgot now that I bring it to her attention. In the wilderness she can go from covert vulnerable to grandiose in a nano second. I take responsibility for my life, the only thing I regret is not putting up boundaries sooner.
Yeah, my boss too…
I can feel for you. I removed covert narcissists in my life and realized all self doubt and confusion are from them. That is crazy.
@@bakpoassylzhan Wow, that's powerful! Thank you for sharing. I'm doing that but that's extra motivation to stay on track
Took me a while to realize that my narc was BOTH rolled into one delightful package of hatred.
Thank you, Dr. Ramani, Pincus and Roche! This clarifies a confounding point of confusion for me. Take care of that cold. You are preciously esteemed.
Exactly! My narc is a COVERT Grandiose narcissist. She is not shy at all. An extroverted social butterfly that is very successful. But her covert part is why it took me 37 years to figure it out!!! I wish more people would talk about the covert grandiose narc. I feel like people don’t believe they exist.
Could you share some of your covert-grandiose narc observations, please?
My daughter in law is grandiose covert. Very difficult to handle.
My girl is this same way, very covert but grandiose as well. Hiding certain things, or jumping back n forth between grandiosity and covertness. It's crazy, I'm about to go no contact again. Wish me luck! 🎉
Well of course they exist. Most of us are really really scarred from these assholes
The concept of narcissism being on a spectrum is essential for me. I’ve seen narcissistic traits in myself has been difficult to recognize prevailing traits however having two narcissistic parents and my last relationship being with a narcissist who ended up stalking me. I felt the other day that I was good at reading people, maybe more skilled at it then others however this skill did not lead me to predicting an outcome of behaviour (Humbling moment for me) this does make me anxious in wondering if I have grandiose tendencies however it isn’t surprising when the viewpoint of narcissism is most of what I had growing up. Or the debilitating shame I live with, constant using myself as a punching bag. Long story short as I study to become a counsellor, I very much appreciate your videos Dr. Ramani.
Dr. Ramani, I think I speak for everyone when I say that we'd like to see more of your cat.
Thank you for breaking this down for us, Dr. Ramani. I have seen the switch with my brother during arguments where he would treat me with so much contempt. It’s as if I’m a piece of gum stuck on the bottom of someone’s shoes. Then he’d turn around and play the victim when called out on his abusive behavior. They think people are beneath them, but are so deeply insecure that anything will trigger them.
That is so true.
For me, the covert narcissist comes across as a people pleaser. They like to be in the spotlight to get the validation that they crave for, as other narcissists but at the same time, they pretend to be humble, simple, generous, over giving. The covert narcissist will take time to build a relationship/friendship with you. During this period, they will show their admiration and their devotion by helping you with everything that is you need. They will try to convince you that you are soulmates and that they understand you deeply. At the same time, you will see them being overly altruistic, maybe helping society by engaging in charities, activism. They feed the poor, take care of the homeless. All this makes you think how lucky you are for having met such a beautiful soul. You want to be by their side for ever. However, soon you notice how much they enjoy being invited in galas to talk about their achievements. But they don’t admit that. They still play the humble guy who doesn’t want all this. Who is beyond money, beyond fame and recognition, who wants to share the floor with other people. But their acts don’t match their words. You come to realise that this selfless soul is actually doing whatever it takes to be in the centre of attention. When you do something together be it at work or at home, they want to control everything about it. They just exerce their control in a more polite and implicit way, making you believe that your voice was heard whereas in reality you did what they wanted you to do. Covert narcissists have a smooth way of leading you on. They don’t shout, they don’t give orders. They are master actors. They convince you that you are together in this. What makes them a narcissist is that when the time comes for them to use you in order to draw certain benefits, they will do it without a second thought and you are not going to believe in your eyes. And when you stand up for yourself and raise your voice against them calling them for their phony identity, then you will see their rage for the first time and the mask will fall. Covert narcissists manipulate less with rage/exhibiting superiority and more with people pleasing behaviour/playing the eternal victim. They are not aggressive as overt narcissists. They are more cunning. What they both have in common is self-centered ness and lack of empathy. In the case of coverts, it will take you longer to find out.They knew what they wanted to get out of you from the beginning. They created a whole theatre play to fool you about who they are and their true motives. You will trust them with all your heart but when the time comes for them to prove their loyalty by choosing your bond over their personal gain, they will choose the latter with no remorse, without even taking any responsibility. Unlike the overt narcissist, they will have an eloquent excuse for doing so, rationalizing why they had to f@ck you over. They will pretend to be sorry about it because this is something that matches the image of modesty that they want to project but in reality they are not sorry at all. You will see them partying with your own money when they said they didn’t have enough to pay you back. You will see them being unfair and untrustworthy to other people as well. When the mask of the victim will fall, you will see the cruel smile of a perpetrator who managed to get what they want without deserving it. If you decide to unmask them run for your life. Moreover, People wonder why they end up hurt, seriously hurt, and even killed for their own actions. Cheating is a choice and there’s simply a lot of ignorance in the process.... Thank you so much for helping me out Metaspyhub@gmail. com. Your advice and services helped me so much. You are a lifesaver !!! The information you gave me about my cheating partner when you gave me access to his phone was everything I needed to get,.. thank you very much..
This is just hating people pleasers, they do so much good and try to be nice, they're just not perfect and their motivations may come from traumas
@@nicoledreamcr4666 "covert narcissist comes across as a people pleaser". She did not say that people pleasers are narcissists'. Curious why that came off that way to you...
@@RoseGacebuiit's a clever narcissistic advertisement. Starts off hoovering then intentionally confusing a covert narcissist with a people pleaser. So she had a right to question the bait and switch comment.
The last sentences ruin it all. Spam
I think you should talk about the narcissist in comparison to the normal personality as it relates to responsibilities, crisis, validation, invalidation, issues that trigger actions or responses from both the normal healty mentality and the narcissist. I'm really not clear on the distinction between narcissistic action/reaction and a normal action/reaction. Examples will really help.
Same that’s a good idea:)
Covert narcissists are overtly withdrawn and deafeningly silent when their cover is blown.
Dr Ramani
Pls take care of that cold
Have a cup of tea with honey and lemon
Hit the sack with a few aspirins
Socks 🧦 on your feet
Get well greetings from
Stockholm 😀 🇸🇪
Yes, neglectful, invalidating and indifferent
I disagree ...I think ur describing just a person who doesn't enjoy socializing... Vulnerable narcissism is a lot more serious problem...u can not have one friend and prefer to be silent and not be a narcissist
And they run the other way when run into!
Yep, my dad has since ghosted me since I started developing an awareness of the true nature of our one-sided relationship. They can sense when their cover is blown and will never accept responsibility for their part or are even open to honest dialogue. They either want the relationship to go back the way it was or to have no relationship.
The narcissist is a Shape Shifter and this shows the four shapes.
💯Exactly!
Huge respect to you for addressing this and admitting to having improved your knowledge on this topic. You showed the true mindset of a scientist excited to share newly found knowledge. Remember there is nothing wrong with being wrong, all our knowledge is wrong to a degree and only ever represents our current most accurate conjectures. Being wrong should never make us feel shame, it should make us excited because falsification is the first step to incrementally improving our knowledge and hence our ability to solve our problems.
Thank you Doctor Ramani ❤️
Thank you doctor. You probably saved my life. 🥰
Oh my I’m so glad to hear this one. I am dealing with a covert narc. And most people can’t see right away what I dealt with. Before boundaries…I used to be drained all day or i would be in bed all day no energy. As soon as this person was out of my energy field I could literally get up and get ready and do what I need to do. Pay attention to the little things with covert narcs.
Get well soon dr. Ramani and thank you for another great episode! :D
This is so brilliant because so many videos online say "a narcissist does X" all the time. Here, we get nuance as to how narcissism can present in response to specific situations.
The more I hear about narcissism, the more I feel like there's a degree of narcissism in all of us! Hopefully, over time - we can learn & change. I think when it's most dangerous is when the older someone gets, the worse their narcissism is! Then what?!
Right i tho this thing the samee
Yes of course there is. The point about pathological narcissists is that they take it too far. Everyone can be selfish sometimes. Everyone can be angry or upset. The narcissist is like that all the time and they have no empathy for others when they hurt them. Their personality is SO narcissistic that they become abusive to those around them. Normal people, even quite narcissistic normal people, aren't like that and will try to change. Narcissists cannot.
If you are emotionally mature enough to see that narcissistic traits can appear in anyone and are able to own your own narcissistic traits, chances are high that you are not a narcissist.
There is a level of narcissism in everyone but the difference is what you do with it. Do you go about loving yourself a little extra or do you use it to manipulate and deceive someone to give harm because you are an unhealed demon!
Narcissism is for survival. Everyone has it! Balance is key. It’s when the maladaptive behaviors come into play
Miss Freedom- Fighter, Miss Boundary-Keeper, Miss Soul-Healer: I love you! The dedication and love to your craft shines through you. It has brought so many transformative moments in my life, and I thank you with all of my heart.
OMG this is what I have been facing for ten years and has been driving me crazy. Thank you Dr. Ramani! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼🎯
Now this makes way more sense - thanks again Dr. Ramani for clarifying everything!
My mother always reminded me of the Kaonashi (No Face) from the movie Spirited away, or the Other Mother from Neil Gaiman's Coraline. She acted vulnerable to get her victims to bond with her out of compassion and empathy, and once they were trapped in her net, she would show her true face. She would try to force you to do her bidding, and when that failed, the victimized manipulation came into play.
That's what my mother does too. It messes with you so bad..! I swing between pity and loathing with her, and often doubt my own actions with her as i question if i am just being "mean" to her when i avoid or ignore her, but if i engage with her i regret it immediately. As Dr Ramani says "You can't win!" It is such an internal struggle tho - the guilt at seeing your mother's vulnerability and not doing anything to help vs the need for self-preservation knowing how it *always* goes. I think i have more work to do on my feelings of guilt & responsibility, and my boundaries. Thanks for sharing that insight - i love Hayao Miyazaki and Gaiman's work too! I find a lot of meaning and symbolism in old fairy tales also. 🙏😊
@@user-vn9sh6hv8r You articulated this really well! Thanks for helping me understand my own experience in clearer terms :-)
This talk changed my life. I thought I was crazy because i KNEW from my research and education that my partner exhibited narcissist tendencies. My counselor met my partner ( my partner insisted).
Last week I timidly suggested with my extensive RUclips studying lol that my partner is a vulnerable narcissist with overt tendencies.
He said I was spot on. It's hard, I remember our first argument he threatened to get a divorce and leave me. I told my friend the next day, "I think I love him more than he loves me." Thank you and a couple other psychologists on RUclips and my counselor. I can be okay with loving him more than anyone and let him go. I still cry lots but it's okay. It does get better
Video starts @ 3:30
Doing God's work. These shrinks sure like to hear themselves yap...
IF you're interested, I think this is the citation:
Pincus, A. L., & Roche, M. J. (2011). Narcissistic grandiosity and narcissistic vulnerability. In W. K. Campbell & J. D. Miller (Eds.), The handbook of narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder: Theoretical approaches, empirical findings, and treatments (pp. 31-40). John Wiley & Sons, Inc
This just explained EVERYTHING that I was so confused about for the last 5 years! I thought I was going crazy with the grandiose and vulnerable personality style and then to also see so much overt and covert behaviour wow!!! I have never heard this explained so well! I lived this.. it is absolutely the truth! Thank you Dr. Ramini for your great work. Life changing! My life has changed for the better because of you.
Thank you for this Dr. Ramani. It's helped validate my suspicions about someone, who, seemingly having little to no grandiosity for a long while, I became more and more drained by until I became very ill.
I suspect they were a vulnerable narcissist all along and I mistook that for humility, low confidence that needed boosting, and gave and gave emotional and practical support until I was all but depleted. Then, they started devaluing me. I believe now they were building up to discarding me, only I did it first. I really relieved I did and can feel my energy returning and mood lifting in waves, although I still crash and still have days of anxiety and grief. The main difference is now I am concerned about myself and my own wellbeing rather than being consumed with concern, worry and anxiety about THEIR wellbeing! It's like a huge weight is being lifted but there's some injuries from carrying that weight for so long that will take some time to heal.
What does haunt me a bit though, is that I never saw them coming! Vulnerable narcissism badly needs to be brought into public awareness, so thanks and God bless to Dr. Ramani and all who work to educate us on this insidious disorder!
Thanks for explaining this so clearly, Especially The way you made the distinctions of the overt-what we can outwardly see - and the covert - what’s going on on the inside that we can’t see. And that’s an oversimplification of what you talked about, but it sticks out for me. Also, that the vulnerable of a more grandiose narcissist comes out when they are “out of sorts” which is a lot of the time. Ha ha. I’ve been through it.
You teach so clearly Dr.Ramani. thank you🥰
OMG! So glad to finally hear someone make the distinction between the two and not lump them together as the same personality. And since coverts won't acknowledg or communicate any of their own issues, characteristics, or areas needing improvements they will instantly deny anything you might have observed and communicated to them. They will refuse to give your words any place or value.
💜 Dr Ramani appreciation post: you have changed my life. Also I hope u keep growing out ur natural hair colour. It's so beautiful!
Doctor Ramini is very pretty!! Beautiful inside + out!!
I love it that she is growing out her hair. I find that it's empowering to see a strong intelligent woman being a normal woman and not the let's all look 25 again .. to be valued! Hate how women are seen for looks and not intelligence 😊😊
@@bereal6590 so so true! I love how she's helping me embrace myself inside and outside! Let's shatter the barriers to being our best selves together! 💜🙏🏽
It's SOOOO difficult to live with someone like this. Thanks for the great info. More on vulnerable narcs please!!! There's not much out there on it!!! Not in the way you explain everything you do!
It's very to get out in a relationship...tbh..
YES!!! Finally the answer to my question! I have two narcissistic parents and i've spent a long time trying to figure it out as they both acted differently at different times and it was so confusing. My dad was so vulnerable, blaming, angry, passtive, abscent but then also sadistic, punitive, harsh, grandiose, arrogant, violent at times. Same with mom. It was so confusing. Now i kbow that they are both all the types at different times, baseline is they are both narcissists and hence toxic and abusive.
Story of my life
Right there with you
Very true.
I spent 7years of my life trying to understand the covert stuff in my ex narc and all my life trying to understand my narc mom and I can tell you for a fact that I am the one who ended up very badly hurt each time. Dr. Ramani your videos are gold. Thank you.
Oh yes... same here. Vuln narcs will throw you under the bus if their shame is activated
tanks doc..
as a covert narc, I'm trying to heal through terapy..
but it's always feels like something missing...
I'm so thankful for your explanation..
keep learning this subject and maybe one day... you find a cure..
for my demons and for other demons as well...
o really appreciate your work doc...
i really want to stop feel so entitled all the time...
because I know i no better than anyone else....
and maybe some day I'm going to feel in that way..
Know that Jesus loves you. I am sure it must feel very dark but Jesus can bring light even to the darkest places and heal the deepest most painful
Wounds so I pray that you find Him and see it for yourself. God bless you
The fact that you're willing to admit and repent is huge. Truly God bless you and I will be praying for you. Yes, God loves you and sent his son for you who was perfect but took on your sin so you could be free from sin. While there are still consequences for harmful actions where we harm self or others. There is then no condemnation to them that are "in" Christ Jesus. That's from Romans. Along with wise therapy that understands healing is out there to be had keep humbly praying and reading scripture asking God to show you the truth and set you free through the power of what Christ did on the cross.
When I heard your description of the overt and covert vulnerable narcissist, I just realised you’re describing one of the most draining and energy consuming colleagues I’ve ever worked for- suddenly it all makes sense!!!!
I have had these questions in my thoughts. Thank you for making this clear. My husband's behavior over the past few years has flipped to more of a depression, yet I could recognize his narcissistic behavior. This brings the package together, and it becomes clear about the dynamics of a Narcissist. Thank you.
This is brilliant, as always, Doc. Also, because so many of us in the survivor community are also Adult Children of Alcoholics (ACA)/Dysfunctional Families, we can struggle with some black and white thinking. We yearn to sort of clean it all up and get everything in the right box. This is such a good example of how nuanced and varied these issues are in actuality.
Please, what are ADA's?
@@lulumoon6942 Thank you so much because that was a typo and because you voiced in I was able to correct it. Oopse! What I should have written was (Adult Children of Alcoholics (ACA)/Dysfunctional Families)
@@musicman4life gotcha, thanks, as a fellow ACA (thank goodness for the literature on this, big tools in my emotional healing!)
@@lulumoon6942 She's the best! I wish I was able to attend her workshop today. I have a side thing I do as a life passion to educate, support and empower us abuse survivors where I create and curate content. I regularly post Dr. Ramani's videos and make my own inspirational memes. It's fairly new and small but it's a sweet, growing group if you'd like to check it out. Facebook.com/thenarcninja @thenarcninja. God bless and may we all continue to be restored through healing.
Hear that kinda in some ways ye for some reason
Off topic, I love that you present yourself with gray hair. You are so genuine and confident.
We really do not need all the products that commercials/consumerism has conditioned us/society to believe.
You are a beautiful Soul! You have helped me and others so much!
Thank you Dr. Ramani❤🌏
This definitely helped, I was having confusion about these coverts but now I understand
That makes a lot of sense, and really helps me understand the picture better. I was lost on why I was seeing both sets of traits at different times, and this really clarifies.
Also, I find it warming, and I trust you more, because you said "Oopsie I got this bit incorrect". I have a tonne of respect for that.
Thank you Doctor R and team for making this video.
Yes Shelly.👍🏽 clears it up for me also. Sometimes labels are thrown around so much that terminology gets lost in the confusion .
And like you, I SO APPRECIATE Dr Ramani clearing this up for us.❤️🙏🏽
This is by far the best simplified explanation of the covert/overt dynamics of the narcissist. 👏
Truthfully the more and more I watch from you the more I realize how much I want to kick these tendencies. Growing up with a narcissistic mother and mother figures really messes with a growing mind. Be healthy Dr. Ramani I'm fighting my covert tendencies and learning to control my overt reactions while just absorbing this new 'vulnerable' terminology to take into account for curbing a generation of narcissistic traits. To those fighting or dealing with such individuals with these traits or tendencies keep learning and use extreme patience on unweaving the spider web of traits learned and to provide support for those "undoing the vulnerabilities" cast upon them to battle the NPD. I'm trying this on my own as I feel I know my own process and just need the terminology to pinpoint where I need to criticize my own invulnerabilities to crawl my way out of that dark and heavy mindset. Good luck and keep learning and trusting your instincts. I find unconditional love from my dad's moms family really is helping me to heal from the destruction caused from the past to be able to curb my insecurity to slowly build on living that empathic life. My perception is that a narcissist is created after they're completely destroyed mentally and brainwashed emotionally to blindly learn at an energy level where spiritually they will learn toxic principles. Canadian First Nations endured this through the fallout of assimilation. This is how I believe my parents both acquired this mental illness. Be it covert or grandiose. This is my perception on what I've learned on indigenous struggling with narcissistic traits. Hope this helps for any research purposes Dr. Ramani. Have a good day!
It's all over the place but once in a blue moon I'll have this crazy idea to speak what I think and just ramble on about maneuvering my way through my own mind. Trying to figure out how to say stuff without overtly looking for validation and covertly looking for that validation through favors or whatever else narcissists use for supply. Using myself to provide intellectual information is how I find my own validation to be able to spread my perception on what I find useful to share different points of view like in a narrative 3rd person perspective. Laying all my thoughts out and working on becoming as genuine as possible for myself.
You may have some " traits" because you had to learn the narc language to survive...but a full blown narc does not think they have a problem...they can not introspect...
Such interesting stuff. When someone lives with it, sometimes you can't see the trees for the forest... thank you for being our guide to clear a path to see where we're going and where we've been.
Notice how narcissists keep moving the tree's around
@@LSMH528Hz they are constantly felling and re-planting :)
Thank you for giving me the language to understand what I have been through. I saw your interview a few days ago with women of impact and I couldn’t stop crying. Now, I just want to protect my children from him because we’re still married.
Vulnerable = Actions are sourced from TRAUMA - Low Self-Esteem
Grandiose = Sourced from EGO - VERY HIGH Self-Esteem
Overt = Outwardly expressed attitudes and actions driven by the covert feelings
Covert = Internal Feelings that motivate Overt Actions... whether they are aware of it or not.
So what this means is that all NARCs will use these 4 MODES of thought, behavior to monitor, manage their needs . This information has verified the 9 years of living with my X NARC 27 years ago ! It took me 7 years to learn these modes with no knowledge of Narcissistic behavior. After getting familiar with the repetition of mode swings I started using them to mirror my narc and try to force another mode swing that the narc didn't want to go to. As you could imagine. That was the beginning of the END. " I survived "..
Wow, I was raised by my mother that has NPD. This was very informative and loved the distinction! Thank you for sharing !
I feel like I never really understood or dealt with my narcissistic abuse caused by my parents, then boyfriends over 5 years. Your videos have been such a revelation for me, and have helped me to understand myself and the others around me a lot better. Thank you for putting so much good information out there. I can't afford to see a therapist, but at least I can be better educated. :)
I just realized something... Dr. Ramani has saved my life. 2nd year listener. And years of uninformed therapists. Thanks Dr. Ramani.
I really appreciate you sharing clinical research with us, Dr. Ramani. The incorrect use of "covert narcissism" has spread like wildfire.
What a wonderfully clear and simple explanation. It doesn’t seem so hard once explained by a naturally gifted teacher. Thank You
Wow this explains so much! I was so confused because I know that my ex was definately a covert narcissist how sneaky and subtle he was! And yes at times he played victim and vulnerble! But at the same time!Very out going, love to be seen, charming, nice looking, the helper, arogant, life of the party! Etc... That's when I often got confused because they described a vulnerable covert very isolated and socially awkward, which was not my ex at all! But now that its broken down this way I could totally understand! I was dealing with a Grandious, Vulnerable, Covert Narcissist! Which in my opinion is the worst combination of all forms! Thank you Dr. Ramani for this clarification
Such important detail. The grey areas are constantly dizzying but hearing it’s ok to see someone slip in and out from grandiose to vulnerable and even overt to suddenly letting us see a tiny bit of their covert usually hidden stuff helps me not feel nuts. Haha. Thanks Doc. 💪🏼💙
Seems like you aren’t feeling well 🙁. Get well soon 🙏🏽 Your videos have helped us a lot. Thank you.
I have nothing but love and gratitude for you Dr Ramani. The world is a way better place for you being in it, your contribution to our health and well being is immeasurable. Your work and videos have been life changing for me.I 100% agree that Narcissism is the issue of our time (sadly) Once you have educated yourself on this subject you start becoming aware of this fact. I have been deeply impacted by Narcissism, as a scapegoated Highly Sensitive person from a family with a Narcissistic parent, and then subsequent relationships and friendships. All I can say is thank you from the bottom of my heart!
We have to be extremely careful to not label actual discrimination victims as vulnerable narcissists. In fact many narcissists will actually project that toxicity onto people who are facing real oppression. For example, if someone brings up how they are facing racism or sexism, toxic people will accuse them of having a “victim mentality” to avoid acknowledging systems of oppression in the world. We also need to realize that if you are being abused by a narcissist who constantly tells you no one likes, loves, helps, or cares about you it’s very easy to internalize that and start believing it which is a tactic of the abuser to make you appear like the narcissistic one when in reality they have been planting those seeds for years. Having low self esteem can be a sign of vulnerable narcissism but it can also be a symptom of narcissistic abuse syndrome so we must be very careful not to mislabel actual abuse victims💯
The fact is a person should get rid of victim mentality regardless!! A part of the process is stop trying to prove yourself!! It is a number one shield from all of the toxic environment… Stop over explaining, pleasing, trying to convince people and earning validation.
Yes to OP
After listening to your videos, it gave me the courage to tell my grown son. He has accused me of making it all up because my mother was very much a better grandmother than she was a mother. He has only shown me anger and dismissed my experiences. I am crushed. He only saw her as loving and giving., and believes none of what my experiences were. My heart is broken.
First, thank you for working through this week for all is us even though you are under the weather, Dr. Ramani. I hope you are better soon. Second, this clears up the description of my brother - he is a master of passive aggressive magnanimous behavior. This masks his underlying cruelty to all but his target. It’s rather impressive. He likes achievements and certificates displayed and framed. He presents as caring and a “got it together” guy with a high achieving family. And yet, he cannot consider any idea but his own as plausible. He is unable to trust proven achievers in a given realm to do their job well without his guidance and approval. This is especially evident when he has no experience in said realm, but will insist his opinion is credible and must be followed.
Covert/Grandiose.
Dr. R, you sound like you've had a cold/been sick. Please let yourself heal and relax. You do so much.
I never understood my cousin who I grew up with like a sister. I loved her and always wanted us to be close. Took me decades to understand why I allowed myself to be treated so poorly. I understand now she is a vulnerable Narc....understanding is freeing.
So-o helpful! Thank you, Dr Ramani. Now I understand my mother was a vulnerable narcissist. As you say, all the patterns were apparent. But she was characterised by the victimised, passive aggressive, manipulative style. And I didn't know what was going on.
I am new to this narcissist theory and this was an extremely helpful video. I am at the "trying to make sense of what he did to me" stage, and this shifted me forward some in my journey. Thank you!
Freaking love it! This is the same kind of complexity that arose out of Myers Briggs personality test work, once they identify introvert versus extrovert, and intuitive vs sensing, that now you've got so many combinations the model loses its simplicity. As someone who has been studying this vigorously in an attempt to heal from it, I've been vocalizing and journaling all my thoughts and motivations to see where the needs for grandiosity and validation come from, all while trying to reprogram the inner belief that I don't *need* anything, I'm whole, human, and I don't need a good reason to feel good about myself.
This was very helpful in understanding the complexity of narcissistic personalities. It is clearly multi-layered and it's helpful to know that they can vacillate between covert, overt, vulnerable, and grandiose. It seems to me that the hallmarks include a lack of empathy or understanding for anyone, gaslighting, blame-shifting, scapegoating, and a whole ton of lying and hiding the truth they do not want to see. I have known for many years that my father has undiagnosed NPD. I still unravel the impact of the disease on everyone around him. Now that my mother is incapacitated with dementia, he cannot hide his extreme control and inability to accept the world as it is becoming versus the world as he insists it needs to be. Your videos have been a big help to me both as a clinician and the daughter of a man with NPD. (And then there was my ex-husband too!)
There is a Delft blue wisdom tile on my bathroom wall with the answer to narcissists, "You are confusing me with someone who gives a shit". I doff my bralet to you, Dr. Ramani for your clarity, accuracy and luminous spirit! Thank you.
Thank you for this comprehensive explanation. Clarifies my lived experience perfectly!
Finally something that makes sense to me and my situation. At the end of the day, its narcissim either in grandiose or vunerable form depending on their situation at the time. So in one conversation we can have " you wont find anyone better than me to I feel incredibly lonely - I dont think it depends on how they feel, its more on what they think the situation calls for to get what they want. And they will gauge the responses. It seems to me what they want is to feel love and adulation once they have that they can move on to step 2. getting what they want whatever that is. And how long they persist depends on what you have that makes them feel good or potentially feel good. Observe and dont absorb is the best way to deal with these people.
I think George Simons is correct when he says character ( and lack of it) is the issue of our time. His description of people with with personality disorders as character deficient is a good way to put it.
What about the dualistic behavior of many narcissists -- one personality for those closest to them who threaten their ability to control the situation, and for surface-level people (close people tend to have expectations that surface-level people do not)? Very distinct personalities can exist. For example, all the blame from the wounded narcissist could be directed at the person who has done the most for them in their lives, but surface level people are given passes.
IOW, one personality can be an obvious narcissist, but another isn't obviously a narcissistic personality at all. These people are VERY DANGEROUS because they may show the attractive personality to real a person in, then flip the script after, say, marriage paperwork is signed.
This right hear, is a great example of how narcissism is basically a gateway mental illness to many more mental illnesses. A point that needs to made more imo. What your describing is the stepping stones to multiple personality disorder.
@Cooper Young, hi. Narcs are master manipulators. It may superficially resemble dissociative personality disorder/multiple identities, but it usually isn't. It's acting, faking, manipulation and the narc is aware of it all. They switch tactics, styles, and personas with ease and it's all under the control of one personality. They're always holding up a false image in order to get what they want (attention, power, influence) so they get really good at reading a room and slipping quickly from one false face to another.
@Wellness Path For Me it's terrible how abusers work. They carefully cultivate a nice public image. They do it to lull their victims into a false sense of security. They also do it to escape blame and public scrutiny, and to continue their abuse behind closed doors. "Oh, no, your parent/sibling/spouse could never hurt you. S/he's such a nice person!" It leaves the people closest to them, their victims, isolated and cut off from outside aid and support.
Dr. Ramani spoke about getting out before you get entangled but that seems impossible when you’re dealing with master manipulators! They have to entangle you in order to feed off of you.
@@richellelee1086 Well, that's just it... you can see the "surface-level personality," and only that personality, going on for at least 5 years. I *know* this, but I'm not gonna say how I know it. The switch didn't flip until the person thought they had the leverage to flip it. If course, narcissism isn't taught to the plebs, perhaps because it is being engineered in us on purpose!
Iron overload toxicity, bio-copper deficiency, and magnesium deficiency all basically run together in the vast majority of cases. Those three things together appear to produce a hyper-active sympathetic nervous system and excess iron definitely triggers the NLRP3 "fear sensor" protein in the cells.
Fe-ar, get it? Fe -- iron. Hidden in plain site.
Here a couple links that I think are key, just note that "copper toxicity" is really a deficiency of bio-copper (hence an excess of the non-bio-copper form), and refers to iron overload, bio-copper deficiency, and magnesium deficiency.
If you really want to delve into the depths of the "rabbit hole," there is a Biblical prophecy aspect to all of this, too. Let me know if you want to hear it.
Morley Robbins - My Theory Of Everything (Iron Overload) -- ruclips.net/video/Iq94ROB5qEs/видео.html
Understanding Copper Toxicity (same as iron overload): ruclips.net/video/QyV4TgXCGC0/видео.html
Iron Homeostasis and the Inflammatory Response -- www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3108097/
INORGANIC Metallic Iron Filings in Cereal Video -- ruclips.net/video/HGbwFtmJOi4/видео.html
Alert For Parents - Heavy Metals In Gerber's Cereal - Can't Verify, But You Can -- ruclips.net/video/qw_zIswTTE0/видео.html
Note -- NO, this iron is not the same as iron in a bean or spinach. Anyone that says it is needs to pull metallic iron filings out of beans and spinach. They can't.
You can also search out the effects of "copper toxicity" and "calcium shell," but those are both basically iron overload, bio-copper deficiency, and magnesium deficiency (they all tend to run together due to the biochemical nature of the body).
Narcissists benefit the system in a number of ways. Some are so toxic and entitled that they create a tremendous drain on society (which is leveraged into government front power grabs). Others are very motivated by money because that temporarily fills their vacuum, so they will do ANYTHING for cash, effectively become the minions of those who control the global money systems. They don't ask why. And they drain families... and the Money Power Families view every other family on the planet as a threat to their "most fit" status, so the less powerful every other family is, the better.
This is a more complex listen, but we'll worth it. Every time I think I've come to fully understand the different types of Narcississim I hear something new that truly resonates with my experiences both in love and family. I could agree more that this is 1 million percent the issue of our time.
The covert narcissistic colleague I know makes very little effort to interact with other people in real life. In the beginning, everyone in the office just thought that he was shy and socially awkward.. but within time, I got to know him better and realised he was actually always actively observing everyone and had opinions about everyone and everything (mostly in a judgmental way). And he is very active on social media. Now I know his quietness was just a technique to make people wonder about him and eventually to make others approach him. Because through this, he finds a sense of superiority, which feeds his ego. It’s his way of manipulating others around him.
They are such dangerous people. They confuse all the people with good intentions who try to help them fit into a new environment (because they made it like as if they needed help very much). And eventually they hurt those good people because of their fragile ego and they are never truly sorry.
It took me so long to get over and understand everything. If not because of all the healthy people in my life, I’d probably still be in the mist feeling so confused about such a person.
Be careful with new people you come across in life. If what they do and say in private and in public, on social media and in real life is inconsistent, then double up your guard.
Good advice
i’m the same way tho..maybe he just didn’t want to be bothered. some people really prefer their own company, introverted and have a mind of their own that forms judgements inside jokes random imagination daydreams bright ideas etc. we’re all observant and we all judge off what you say judge even if we have the conscious to be like”nah that ain’t right i shouldn’t of said that.” that person just told you what they were thinking and you’re mad bc you didn’t think that or had the slightest clue. irony is you judged that person thinking bc they were mild mannered and meak and quiet that they didn’t have a mind of their own. no one has to wear their heart on their sleeve and it’s no ones responsibility to make others comfortable with their quiet demeanor. shit at least they told you. goes to show you how aloof they were cuz if they were really intellectually manipulating you they wouldn’t have even told you in fear of putting themselves in a bad position. Point is I am that person. I case the joint everywhere I go. And I pick and choose who I want to speak toI don’t go out my way to observe. I have eye balls and I can see. I am very good at reading people but not to manipulate them I actually don’t want to be bothered tbh. Most people don’t appeal to my senses or my energy. I just have no interest in talking with people make or female period. Probably why narcissist pick me out ironically lmao. I like my own company and it’s better to be quiet about the fact that I am not a team player, I know I’m sensitive, I know I am moody as hell.. I’m self aware and I can do bad by my damn self.
so many typos but you get my point
Well they have a real fear of rejection. So if YOU goto them, they know you won't really reject them then. You're approaching them. If they goto YOU and you give them this dirty @ss look like "uh why are you here?" this will make them sustain a narcissist injury badly. And to take one of those while on the clock and NEW at a job.. Isn't good for them.
If they have a real disdain for EVERYONE, this could be an actual psychopath. No fuel required hence why they don't need anyone. They fuel themselves. Always goal oriented.
@@daviedood2503 It’s not as black & white as that. This particular colleague hardly interacted with anyone else but in comparison showed lots of interest in me in the beginning .. I guess it was because of my very obvious empathetic approach to people around me.
That was how I got to see the private side of him as we had interactions outside of work. But even that, he was still very secretive about his own private life… Although he did very very diligently put up all his sport achievements on his social platforms and interact very actively with his followers..
Gradually I found that the so called friendship was never reciprocal and I was the only one who was always there for him when he was in need but never the other way around. And that he was also always lying by omission. And that he was never empathetic towards people around him. (He would be literally sitting in front of his desk, focusing on his own work while the entire office is helping each other moving furniture around or unpacking boxes).. So I tried many times wanting to distant him, but every time he just kept on saying “I don’t have many friends and I want us to be friends, and I’ll be better.” …
But nothing was ever better.
It almost felt like you’re running a loop again and again. Nothing ever changed.
It was so emotionally draining. Like being with a very needy and immature baby…
Until one day he made a mistake at work and got criticised by his supervisor. He told me about it so I stayed behind after work trying to find a way to help him. But when I was only laying down the facts(of him making the mistake), he lost it and called me being unsupportive( his actual words were much harsher than this)…
That was when I had my epiphany that I didn’t deserve to be treated like this and I had to stay away from such a person.
I didn’t know anything about narcissism back then. But thanks to him now I do. Consider it as a valuable lesson learnt.
Thank You, thank You, thank You! I am 62 years old. For the last two decades i Have cared for my aging parents. For the last 3 years my aging father lived in my house (we had then moved to be closer to my brother and cousin) and I cared for him until he sadly passed from als. After that, i blew my top! I critizised my brother and my closest cousin (both the youngest by 10 years, and pampered) for neglecting my father during his last years. All hell broke loose! I had to cut relations with both of them! I also found your videos, and thanks to them i could keep my sanity! I now understand that i Have Been brought up in a narcissistic Family system. Thanks to You i now am starting to see that it has a lot to do with me having abusive Relationships in the past and why i during the years Have put up with "friends" that also were abusive. My dear old father and I had many talks about my brother and cousins behavior. He often told me that i was "too kind"! Thanks to You, im starting to see the whole picture! I Will stop being too kind (i Will not strive to be awful, but i Will be much, much more careful of Who i let into my life in the future!) And I Will continue to learn more about narcissism and its effects. I am forever grateful to You!
So glad you touched on the point that clinicians argue narcissists have all 4 types running, Because I see fragments of each in a few of the narcissists I know well. It was confusing, but now cleared up - thank you! Thank you too, for owning your own misunderstanding of it. You are the quincetential decent, humble human being, and I appreciate you.
Based.
I'm a narc magnet & was dating one who is extremely grandiose to the extent of operating on a legitimately delusional level of beliefs while simultaneously being made the victim of *EVERY* "system" in place. He got a 3rd DUI & for some reason believes *everyone* involved in his alcohol treatment program has improperly labeled him. I didn't know about the DUI stuff when we met. As more & more came out; I stopped liking him. His behavior changed without my attention, & now almost every time I run into him; he starts sobbing about how much he's learning about himself & how sorry he is for the past & blah blah blah I I I me me me... they never change. Even when society punishes them for unacceptable behavior, it's not their fault.
I straight up told the guy (54M) I don't like or respect him anymore. It's not fixable. His not being able to get over me is his problem.
I recently got a brutal medical diagnosis & haven't even processed it yet, but the Narc still blows my phone up with pages of "I" statements about all the important things he's doing. Then he flips to vulnerable & injured. I don't have the energy to deal with that person & he both understand that & doesn't care. I'm so glad to see that she covered how much overlap happens. Nothing in science ever fits so neatly into a perfect category.
This is 100 percent correct!! And my minds blown right now, dealing with VULNERABLE!!! Thank you
Covert Narcissist is how I feel, at least how you describe the internal experience, but I don't think I use these excuses. I've mostly sat and quietly blamed and hated myself. I always got projected on by my parents so I developed a fear of appearing to be self-interested.
It actually took me a very long time to actually acknowledge that the problem was I was being horribly abused, rather than it all being somehow my fault.
SSRIs really helped with the constantly self-vitriol though.
Some of it might just be I'm currently trapped on the edge of a toxic family and living with people who believe I am suffering from a non-specific psychosis rather than choosing to believe me, and I went my entire life being completely invalidated at every turn. I think I might come across as desperate to be believed and it makes me less believable?
People outside the family seem to treat me with dignity and respect, but I can't tell if it's genuine or not. It's such a stark contrast from how family treats me, and I can't tell if it's me or them.
Cognitive dissonance, split perceptions, duality, dilemma, confusion, gaslighting, doubt, lying, mind-games and deception.
All tactics of the covert N. to keep the person unstable, confused, second-guessing, discombobulated and disorientated.
A pendulum of doubt and conviction is what we swing on as we try to make sense of our experience. Potentially, one day the scales finally tip and conviction is reached, you have come to the conclusion that your entire family is under a toxic spell, you are the lowly scapegoat, and your mother / father is the wicked leader at the head of the cult. There has been an orchestrated campaign of death by a thousand cuts against you, for decades and counting...
The way you are noticing being treated by people outside of family is real, but there is cognitive dissonance and a disconnect from natural intuition because you have been gaslight and manipulated so much within the toxic family, this is why total no contact is necessary to heal from the dissonance by never experiencing it again in your life, no where near mentally ill people who are hell bent on manipulating you / destroying you.
This is so in depth! I see it now, all (4) pieces to the personality disorder. Mind blowing!
Different shades of the narc chameleon. They change their type on a whim, whatever seems to give them the most narc supply in the moment.
Hope you're feeling better Dr. Ramani, sounds like you're getting over a cold. Thank you for being so dedicated to educating us. Another great video!
💜 🎖 🥇 🙏 we love you Dr ramani durvasula!!!!!!!!
Thank you Dr. ! This makes perfect sense, and clarified a lot!
Oh dear...just when you thought you comprehended insane behaviour...it gets more complex! 😱😊
This is a video that really clarified things with me. I may not have much of a reason to discuss the labels but I think I had thought my husband was a covert narcissist when in actuality his behavior is really more of a vulnerable narcissist with mostly covert demonstrations and a few sprinkles of grandiosity here and there. The grandiosity comes out more around other people.
This explains so much. I was nearly destroyed in my early 20's by a relationship with a young man who seemed to flip from vulnerable to grandiose. I could never figure out where that sweet, pitiful boy went.
Thank you, Dr. Ramani for continuing to give me and others more insight into the world of narcissism! ❤️ This video is so helpful.....😌
Ma'am ... You have defined very clearly, the minute differences of Narcissim... Thank you so much for educating people, who doesn't know about Narcissim and don't know that from what actually they are going through. Thanks for educating and saving people.
Thank you Dr. Ramani for staying so current. As I have studied this over the last five years I have been coming to the same conclusion. I've been finding that as the understanding of narcissism advances it is fitting better with what I've experienced and what I have personally thought based on what I've seen. I can see the refining in understanding making more sense to me than some of what was previously thought of by many as settled thought.
Especially when you are showing us the latest in what is scientific { able to be reliably repeated by different scientists performing the same experiment } are you proving you are of the best of the best. Keep keeping us informed on any new developments that can be considered more in the line of hard science not soft because you are correct, this is THE issue of our time.
This is so helpful. The summary at the end especially. Totally explains how some people can be missed by a usual narcissist radar because they don't spend a lot of time in the overt/grandiose expressions
Excellent synopsis, Dr. Ramani. Thank you so much.
TY for this Gem :) As I listened, I could see all 4 examples in my ex. and myself at times.
Thank you so much for explaining this. I can now see that the guy I was recently seeing was an overt vulnerable and covert grandiose narcissist.... the complete opposite of my ex husband who was overt grandiose and covert vulnerable. I mistook these seemingly opposite characteristics for this guy being “different” to my ex and therefore good (he seemed so sensitive and empathetic at first), which left me feeling confused when his actions didn’t match his words. I understand now.
Also please take a day off! We can all wait
Shout-out from Germany. While I am not in a deep crisis, you content has helped me a lot to understand a situation at my workplace. Thanks and keep the good work going.
Dr Ramani you Aced it ! I always felt that there was a connection to this Madness and thanks to you and all of your colleagues We have a possible answer to a lot of many of our Questions ( They May go from one extreme to another to another... as long the need dictates). Thanks very much.