Broken Cartridge Leads to Speedrunners Beating Dragon Quest 3 in 8 Seconds!
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 28 апр 2021
- Patreon: / abyssoft
Since the Hotplate Glitch a lot has been done with Dragon Quest 3 to push the time lower. Creating an "Anything Goes" category, the community has pushed the time to under 10 seconds through two incredible methods, both being developed by Pirohiko and ran by Hitshee.
Hotplate Glitch: • Speedrunners Put Their...
Paper Mario ACE History: • Speedrunners Break Pap...
This video wouldn't have been possible without translation provided by Vaxherd. Pirohiko and Hitshee are both from Japan and Vax graciously provided his time to translate the finer points of this glitch and look over the script, he's a die hard Dragon Quest runner with world records and marathon runs under his belt, so please go check him out.
Vaxherd
/ vaxherd
Become a member of the community!
Discord: / discord
Twitch: / abyssoft
Twitter: / abyssoft
Music by novadrome:
/ realnovadrome
/ @officialnovadrome
officialnovadrome.com/
Old Article about the Mario / Tennis glitch
metopal.com/2012/09/12/the-fam...
Footage and Runner Links
Hitshee
/ @hitshee_hotplate
Pirohiko
/ @pirohiko
Kosmic
/ kosmic
Jcog
/ jcog
The Footage at 5:44 is provided by Fray, it's a RAM viewer he used for Paper Mario, I just edited in a DQ3 fight to make it more thematic
Fray: / @frayssb 
Игры
This video was originally uploaded with a different thumbnail and title, but the section of the video they referred to wasn't included in the video. This was my mistake and I apologize, I've remedied the thumbnail and title so it better reflects what's in the video.
Btw it's pronounced AHK UH REENAH of time not ORC ah reenah
@@zk0rned not necessarily, depends on accent, location and where you're from, 8 months late
Hello!
@@GriffinForteHi.
Hardware Manips need to be treated as separate categories from Any% runs as they definitely can't be attempted by just anyone.
They can be attempted by anyone, just learn hex editing and 1980s electronics design and you too can hack dragon quest to the end of the game. It's neat but there's no way this should be included with runs of the game that only use controller inputs.
@@gentronseven it’s an external influence so it should be separate
Precisely; Plus, they just feel different from software manip. It's outside of the game, so somehow it feels separate from traditional glitching/exploiting/hacking
@@gentronseven Plus, make sure the DQ3 cartridge doesn't have a hardware designed to make sure this doesn't happen
Not just that, there's also no clear line to distinguish "legit" hardware manipulations from things like plugging the cartridge in through, for example, a modded Game Genie that could alter RAM values at will. If you allow hardware other than the game + the console + the controller, you'd need to carve out exceptions to that general allowance for every single instance that is deemed unacceptable (turbo controllers, game genie/pro action replay, any other mods). And if "modifications to game hardware" are disallowed, then you get the question of where to draw the line between "mods to hardware" and "just using additional hardware without modding any of the normal hardware." It's a long, filthy, slippery slope. Better to leave experimental stuff like that for its own category.
2000: Why would I ever put my cartridge in the microwave ?
2021:this could be a new pb
2000: I gotta handle this disc properly, don't want to scratch or smudge the side that is read by the player...
2020: Smudging this disc is a viable speedrunning strat
I think these runs are cool if they have their own category
Yeah i agree
Yeah, when in doubt, make a new category
Agreed. I think that these should go under hardware minipulation or something. I think it's 100% cool and should be considered in speedprunning, but maybe a seperate catagory from any%.
My immediate thought was if they made it it's own category I'd love it. I'd be alright if not. But I think it'd end up being more fair overall if it was it's own
That's what no-major-glitches and no-wrongwarp (which people include ace in) are for. This is any%, the game was finished and time was called.
"anything goes" categories sound like a really cool idea. nobody wants to cheapen the skill of these amazing players but feats like these should be encouraged in some way and a new category seems like a good place. it's like a TAS in the sense that it's just an example of what the game can do. it shouldn't be compared to other runs
Comparing it to TAS is perfect. It is essentially cheating, but it's still cool and needs a lot of work to be done right. A seperate category is definitely necessary at the very least. I suppose, however, that the question becomes "where do we draw the line?". Do we include things like cartridge swapping in this, or is that not quite close enough to be considered hardware manipulation?
@@329link yeah that's a trickier problem to solve. I also think it's important to set the rules up in a way that produces varied results across games. what if a bug is found that let's you setup ACE in one game and trigger any ending in another. it'd be kinda boring if every game was just playing smw for a few minutes and cart swapping
Anything goes? Time to use a game genie cartridge!
@@areaxisthegurkha that's a fair point. maybe there could be subcategories where you're only allowed to use 1st party hardware for some runs and game genies would be the "anything goes" that's never really ran because it's boring to add a genie code and turn the thing on
Anything Goes is the speedrunning Group B.
“So for the next step, point the particle accelerator at the N64”
lol
This reminds me of the Tit Tok Klock upwarp that is theorized to be a neutrino interference in the games RAM.
"You claim I faked it? You're free to get time on a particle accelerator and try it for yourself."
Particle accelerators were invented specifically to blow on cartridges 👍🏽
The soldering should be part of the run's time, tbh.
That would be cool lol. Losing time cus you burned your finger. 😂
By soldering you likely change bits in the code that is being run, yes, with editing the gamecode you can jump directly to the endscreen. I consider it different from an ACE that is done on unmodified hardware or in an emulator with just the controller.
To improve speed you'd crack a new cartridge open, then use a screwdriver to short the pins at the right time.
@@gblargg
Ah yes, my favorite category, screwdriver%.
would still be faster so i support this
Next: speedrunners manipulate time travel to finish games before they start
Casual, the real category is beating games before they're created
just code some ACE to set the game timer to negative 5 days :) race to the biggest negative number possible would be kind of interesting.
don’t they kind of do that in one of the zelda games
*get world records while the game is still in development
Late 90s/Early 2000s: Stop n Swop is a feature that was supposed to be used between Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie
2021: Stop n Swop is a feature used between Final Fantasy, Dr. Mario, Kirby's Adventure and Dragon Quest III to beat the latter
Next: speedrunners manipulate ROM to clear games in 0.1 seconds flat!
Next: Speedrunners re-code a game to make the start of it initiate the end credits instead, allowing a finish time of 0.00.
@@The_Azure_ yep
Yeah there's no reason to count these speed runs in the same category, games are just code and NES games are code + hardware at the end of the day and using hardware to short circuit the game shouldn't be allowed in normal categories.
"Clear"
This just illustrates the level of absurdity that has been created by calling this speedrunning. It's not. It's neat. But it isn't speedrunning.
In my opinion, I think there should be separate categories for hardware manipulation and stuff, since it’s really cool, but it shouldn’t affect other Any% runners. Also, cool video! It’s interesting to see how people can manipulate games
But where does that stop. You could instantly complete the game with manipulation. There just no competition there
@@emanuelemanuel7038 Well, I think it’s highly unlikely a game could be completed instantly with hardware manipulation (Idk much about it though so I might be wrong), but if that’s the case people probably would just run it for fun, to see if they’d be able to beat it instantly
@@emanuelemanuel7038 Making a separate category treats it the same as a TAS. Just not letting people do it is not really an option you have no control over that.
any% is specifically the (almost) no rules category. When something major is found, usually a new category is made that excludes that thing.
@@floralfox I mean this literally is a TAS. It's a TAS that doesn't use emulators to record inputs and then play them back, the traditional sense of a TAS, but it does use an external tool to assist with game data directly.
imo swapping out cartridges is fine as it's own category (obviously should not be counted as a normal playtrhough but it's an interesting offshoot of credits warp strategies) but, actually modifying hardware via changing electrical connections means you're no longer playing the same game.
I think the line should be drawn in "if you can do it with a brand new console its not cheating" so swapping carts is fine but if you have to open it up then its no bueno
yeah that's a good way to put it
Swapping carts should always be a separate category since in some ways it's a speedrun through multiple games rather than just one, but it certainly seems like a valid and interesting category on it's own.
@@electra_ I think it would be fair if any new additions to the physical equipment requirements of a run had to be considered for a new category by that game's community. That way there's a chance for runners to have their say in whether or not it creates barrier to entry issues, and you can gauge whether people (both runner and audience) are even interested in the proposed changes in the first place.
@@electra_ I think it would be fair if any new additions to the physical equipment requirements of a run had to be considered for a new category by that game's community. That way there's a chance for runners to have their say in whether or not it creates barrier to entry issues, and you can gauge whether people (both runner and audience) are even interested in the proposed changes in the first place.
I think another way to put it is that an ACE approach to any% category should be doable on hardware and emulator, at least in theory, and not require special properties of either scenario, unless we're talking about a more specific category.
Speaking as a computer programmer, here is how I fall on these speedruns:
The Super Mario World credits warp on console is an example of speedrunning the Super Mario World hardware and software. This is because the credits warp is triggered by mechanisms internal to the software. The game's programmers did not intend for this to be possible, but the game was programmed in such a way that it was possible. Therefore, it is a speedrun of both the hardware and software of this game.
Swapping carts to perform a credits warp in Dragon Quest 3 is an example of speedrunning the Dragon Quest 3 hardware, but not its software. This is because Dragon Quest 3's software has been manipulated externally, meaning it is no longer the same software.
Shorting a pin on the Dragon Quest 3 cart is not an example of speedrunning the Dragon Quest 3 hardware nor software, since both have been manipulated externally. So is this even a speedrun of Dragon Quest 3? I would not personally consider this to be a speedrun of Dragon Quest 3 in any category since it is essentially a different game, although the community may of course make its own rulings.
Speedrunning Super Mario Bros. on emulator, such as Niftski's recent 4:54, is an example of speedrunning the Super Mario Bros. software but NOT its hardware. In this case, the community has ruled this to be an acceptable way to speedrun the game Super Mario Bros. in the Any% category.
I don't mean to take away from the achievements of those who have put time into figuring out credits warps via external software and hardware manipulation. I think it is an extremely interesting topic and think it is generally acceptable for this to fall into an Anything Goes category. I also think there is room for reasonable exceptions such as Super Mario 64 120 Star allowing using of a Hori Mini Pad to avoid unnecessary wear and tear on a standard controller during the Bowser fights.
That last method was like the AVGN "Beat a Game Button" and I don't know how I feel about that
I think this put the legitimacy of the run into question
My question is what’s stopping someone from just making a game genie or something that triggers the end credits after one button press? Get it to 00:00:01 and just ruin it forever.
I mean... we already have that in the speed running community, like, a lot. How many games do the runners just skip right from the beginning of the game to the end of the game without even playing anything in between? A lot. No, doing the bare minimum in between just to set up your glitch doesn't count. We really need to stop and think of if weather it counts as beating a game if you didn't even play the game in the first place.
@@MelodyBarrens
That true to an extent... But still, think the appeal is more the many convoluted ways the speed runners can manage to manipulate the game. The less straightforward the method is the more impressive this "I win" button will seem.
With that said, it def should be its own category, since the runners aren't really playing the game in this case.
I like the unbiased and purely informative approach you made when explaining this and then only putting your opinion at the end! It’s tricks like these that generate a lot of discussion and even though I really like glitches, I can see why this is controversial for speedrunning. Your work is really good, keep it up!
I swear, Abyssoft is intentionally saying "Orcarina of time" now lol
Always notice it haha
This stuff is absolutely neat, I think it certainly deserves its own kind of recognition without interfering with people who do more conventional speedruns. "Anything Goes" type categories sound perfect to me.
ACE is quite an achievement and I like it being on Any% categories as long as it is achieved "in-game"; but hardware manipulation (including hot plates), while also an achievement, should have its own category in my opinion, as you need to go way too far out of the game.
Edit: misspelling.
Yeah. There needs to be a leaderboard for discovering ACE, with descending categories for hardware manip and AI assistance. But otherwise its anything goes.
Speedrunning Dragon Quest by playing Final Fantasy instead sounds like a joke from an alternate reality 80s, but here we are.
anything goes is such an amazing idea and takes speedrunning to an more interesting subject. I cant wait to see more complicated things get discovered
Right up until someone just makes a game genie for it and triggers the end credits after a button press. Cant beat a 00:00:01 time, and it still is allowed under “anything goes”
The stop n swop seems ok but messing with the cartridge seems a little too far
I'm of the idea that, yes, these hardware manipulations (by which I mean "performing ACEs using external tools and methods" -- ACEs are perfectly valid on their own) are fascinating on a technical level, but they should definitely not be what represents the common speedrunning community for the applicable games.
In fact, I'm of the opinion that these hardware-manipulated runs should be placed on their own and distinct pedestal, as I believe these to be very different from both regular *AND* TAS runs on a fundamental level.
This isn't your average everyday pro gamer move, this is advanced pro gamer move
Rockbottom lol
I think these kind of things, as fucking incredible as they are, should get their own category of speedruns. I still love them to hell and back, even if my monkey brain almost can't comprehend HOW are they possible.
They are their own type of speedrunning, don't worry.
This was another great video. Thank you.
And the Lord spake thus: _"Thou shalt emit a pulse of high voltage, upon which thou circumventeth the godless chip standing in thy way."_
Now I'm thinking of that joke in PBG's video of funny ways to die in zelda breath of the wild: "Strunk DOWN by GOD himself!" when he got Link killed by weather lightning.
Portal has a speedrun category (sv_cheats 1) that the current record is 1 frame long
It's mostly "legit" in the sense that it goes thru every level, from start to finish.
a speedrun is an arbitrary challenge set by whoever wants to do the run first. its as legit as any category even if its not competitive anymore or not very interesting to watch
I've been getting a few comments about the accidental kick in the title, as it seems to be missing from the video. That was mentioned in the Hot Plate Glitch video, which this video is a sequel to. I thought I had a section in here briefly explaining it right before the SMB discussion, but it looks like it never made it in. If you watch the Hot Plate video the story of how the little brother kicked a console to get a max leveled character is explained, as it was part of the causal chain that led to the stuff going on here.
Hot Plate Glitch: ruclips.net/video/UPFyMA4WtYI/видео.html
You should have reuploaded the video with a different title if that was the case.
@@RichietheGamer Yup completely agree.
You can easily remedy this by simply changing the thumbnail and title.
@@luminous6969 Fixed, apologies for not doing that in the first place.
Definitely a super neat thing and i love that they found this. But this very obviously isn't actually speedrunning. It does bring up the very real conversation that has to happen regarding what counts as hardware manipulation and what doesn't. At the end of the day its up to each individual community
I think hardware manipulation should only alllow things that the game provide to you, like the game itself, the console, controllers, etc, using a soldering iron goes beyond that, something like what we saw in this video should belong to a diferent category, something like hardware modification. My take would be, Hardware Manipulation: You manipulate the game with the tools given to you. Hardware Modification: You change the game using wathever means you posses
It's still speedrunning
Breaking Dragon Quest with the help of Final Fantasy feels like one of those crossover fighting games
Never fake a run. If you want to try to fake a run, make sure it isn't obvious-
And even then there will always be something off. Especially the presentation.
It will become obvious. Cheating may take a battle, but it'll never win the war.
The main question I'd ask here is "Is this still a cartridge containing Dragon Quest 3?". I'd be cool with hot swapping cartridges, but shorting circuits is basically modding the game itself.
Nontheless, very interesting video :)
Yea, at that point just let runners use Game Genie and other cheat devices to qualify as well.
Well, I mean, yeah, it is still Dragon Quest 3, but the cart itself has been modified. Unlike a Game Genie, which modifies RAM, this doesn't affect the game itself, but rather it just short-circuits it, which does modify the game, but it's more on a hardware level than anything.
I mean the game is stored in ROM not RAM so yes the cartridge is still DQ3. This isn’t hardware manip. However, any ACE (regardless of how it’s achieved) NEEDS to be a separate category
@@ToaderTheToad "This doesn't affect the game itself, but rather it just affects it."
@@vanilla8956 ...You just boiled down my comment to the most basic level.
Yes, both ways of modifying the cart ARE affecting it, however, you could potentially short-circuit it yourself. That's a universal electrical reaction. But, you can't really replicate a Game Genie, or something similar. Or, modifying the ROM itself, which, of course, wouldn't be legal. (You could theoretically replicate a Game Genie through ACE, but even then we're getting into less gray areas then so it doesn't really matter in this situation.)
So important to just make plenty of categories in order for us to keep seeing new and unbelievable achievements.
If hardware manipulation is fine, perhaps you can just use Game Genie type of device to load the credits. There's got to be a point where glitching out the system is plain stupid.
Yup, my thoughts. If “anything goes”, why not rewrite the software so that you instantly win?
Or just dump the credits onto their own cart and throw that in there. The moment you pull out a soldering iron, who gives a shit, lol.
It is cool that people go deep enough to find this stuff though.
that's not using the hardware that already exists to exploit the game that's adding something that doesn't use the original hardware so it's completely different
@@zk0rned ofc it exists
@@wojtekkkk I know but what I actually said is that you're introducing hardware that's outside of the original hardware
I documented some cartridge swap glitches in the Misc. section of my old website for SFII: Championship Edition on the Genesis. I never knew back then that speed-runners would later employ and modify such tactics on the NES, though.
With that said, I’ve always been opposed to modifying hardware for purposes of setting records, and this definitely crosses into that territory. The Super Mario Kart community, for instance, unfortunately allowed modified controllers, and once they opened Pandora’s box, it could never be closed.
Hey David, so cool to see you around!
The main thing with the SMK community was some players had "natural" pro-NBT controllers, either from very old controllers with worn out d-pads or 3rd party controllers which had smaller dpad bumps. So the option to allow dpad modification was only a way of evening the playing field. What followed was an increasingly competitive community, with records being ser left right and center (100+ WRs last year alone), while the non-NBT rankings slowed down significantly. So I think, in the end, it was for the best, even if people don't agree with the initial argument. Anyways, glad to see you around, I've always been a huge fan!
@@gasasmk Yeah, not really comparable imo. Though it would be funny if a haunted cartridge soldered a "press to win instantly" button onto itself.
Honestly I think that this level of hardware manipulation while impressive goes too far, at this point they may as well be using a game genie
If it is just "anything goes" and you are allowed to solder the cart, then yeah I don't see how game genie is different.
Can you beat the game instantly with game genie? 🤔
@@herrabanani likely some games should be
that's not using the hardware that already exists to exploit the game that's adding something that doesn't use the original hardware so it's entirely different
Chill everyone, this isn't replacing "traditional" speedrunning and has its own category.
Personally, I'm less concerned with the integrity of "traditional speedrunning" and more concerned about the integrity of the cartridges themselves. Can the modified cartridges be used for anything but running this one category anymore?
@@angeldude101 I'm pretty sure they can still be used regularly the only difference is that the modified cartridge has the option to easily short a circuit this doesn't directly cause any differences to a normal cartridge
The quality of your videos is so good, your subscriber count is criminally low. Leaving a comment to help the algorithm gods
Modifying hardware and code instead of improving "skills", you say? From what I've witnessed, speed running has never been 100% skill based. It completely varies whether the thing that saves you time involves, say, an immense amount of skill and dedication to save a very small amount of time (Mega Man X iceless comes to mind) or a simple glitch or RNG manipulation that saves a huge amount of time, and so on. I think each run should just be considered on its own merits at this point. It's not just about how fast, but *how* it was done. It's all interesting and entertaining to me, and I think all these methods, regardless of whether they could be considered "skills" within direct gameplay or something else, deserve their own venues of appreciation.
I think there should be a separate category for hardware manipulation. So there's a category for game expertise, and a category for hardware expertise.
We used to have a saying.....
“If you’re not cheating, your not trying”
Hardware Manipulation is definitely trying....
Dude these videos are Max entertainment. Keep up the great work!
"Then the runner will have to plunge the N64 into exactly 1.73 liters of melted gruyere cheese"
I'd be interested hearing about that Battle for Bikini Bottom CD manipulation. Great video as always
Edit: Just saw the name of the Bikini Bottom video towards the end ("The Most Bizarre Speedrun Strategy Ever Found"), I'll check that out
And now, we use hard-disks.
@@AmaroqStarwind I prefer a floppy dik.
@@jangofatt7135 Nothing like that big, shiny laser dik.
As I remember it basically abused the game's handling of data loading being lagged. Forcing even more laggy loading would amplify the effect in game.
lmao how can editing your cartridge to change the values not be too far
i understand the hotplate stuff being interesting as that causes an exploit that could otherwise happen normally; but this looks like they're just taking a soldering iron and flipping a bit. hell the hotplate stuff is already pretty absurd and shouldn't be seriously considered a legitimate part of the strategy; its more of just an interesting quirk of the console IMO
i posted this simply based on the thumbnail in the premier, but most of this is completely fine up until the end. cartridge swapping and abusing memory exploits is perfectly fine assuming other categories are opened to keep the normal any% gameplay alive. but taking a damn soldering iron to destroy a line of code is absolutely within the realms of straight up hacking; if you're going to physically remove parts of the game from the cartridge it doesn't count, 100%.
the hotplate stuff is a definite oddity that doesn't fall within any predefined rulesets; as its not entirely code or hardware modification. the console overheating, smudges on the CD, and dust in the connector pins are all things that can happen completely naturally; but they can also be going a lot closer to modifying the hardware beyond possible means. i think it would be more interesting if these "tools" were banned not for any explicit unfairness; but rather because i simply think it would be more interesting to see runners figure out how to have these situation like overheating occur naturally.
I wish you the best of luck into making this your full time job. Always like to see somebody fullfill a dream like that.
It should definitely be a separate category as it is a wholly novel method of completing a game which technical skills should be pinned against each other. This is more on the line of TAS Speedruns, which are amazing but its own category of optimizing speedruns.
Plus the note of accessibility to being able to afford all the hardware and be willing to potentially destroy (fast becoming antique) cartridges is far too long a bridge for the majority of any video game enthusiast to cross.
This is crazy! Speedrunners would do anything to get a lower time.
I like the idea of a "Any%" and "Anything goes" category distinction.
One is playing the game, the other is, well, do literally whatever works.
Dude went from dragon quest, to Dr Mario, to Kirby, and back to Dr Mario within 15 seconds at the beginning. I KNOW I'm not gonna be ready for this.
I like the idea of making separate categories for the technical stuff, so people who are used to running the game normally aren't shoved out of the competition
This is an awesome video, keep it up brother!
I think this should definitely have its own category!
Lmao looking at just the title I can't help but imagine someone getting so pissed they hit their console, then the game suddenly completed itself
Yeah, except it never fucking happened.
i've always viewed the true essence of a speedrun determined by what one can do with a new console (of any manufactured version desired) a single game of any commercially sold version, and any number of officially licensed peripherals (ie GC's gamboy player, SNES multitap). with 3rd party items, they have to simulate the name brand items.
i do view the hardware manip runs as sitting between a TAS and a regular speedrun. and still valid runs but would have to clearly denote what manips they are doing outside the game.
Awesome content! This stuff is unbelievable man wow
I'm fine with cartrage swaps (so long as these are seperate catogories), it's neat and shows how the games work. The pin shorting though is beyond what I consider okay. Not only is this simular to just using a game genie imo, I feel like it's becoming "who can afford the tech to do so" and ruins copies.
opening the cartridge and soldering the button should count as time on this speedrun
Stuff like this needs its own category, so I'm glad the anything goes category exists
it really amazes me what this new generation figures out/comes up with with my generations console games that we never thought of.
ACE is one of those things that you’re cool with seeing once but not really ever again, kinda like “Two girls, one cup”.
'anything goes' sounds like a good category name. showing off cool hax is fun.
I genuinely think this should be a separate category because it's still just as impressive as any of Speedrun
HW manipulation is definitely its own thing, I'd also treat most ACE as its own category to be honest, especially if it requires other games to pull off.
I would be fine with this if they included all the time it takes to swap around all the cartridges and do all the hardware manipulation in the run times. calling this an *8 second* run is a REAL stretch.
I agree with everyone else that these should be a separate category, but I'd like to propose the name "FAAFO%," standing for "fuck around and find out"
I thought the hotplate strat was nuts and out-of-the-box.
Then I saw the runner soldering stuff to his cartridge.
The minus world is not ID -1, the - sign is the dash between worlds and levels.
pirohiko is one of my top 45 Idols
0:55, Your chances of getting a sub just shot down to literally 0 👏 👏 👏
IMO they should track how long the hardware manips take from start to finish, soldering included. That way it's still a speedrun in spirit and the modding skill is part of the challenge.
Mannnnn ace is such a cool new way to look at speedrunning
It's not the matter whether it should be put into another category, but rather that it deserves its own category.
I think an "anything goes" category is the best solution. Just seeing these people putting so much effort in researching and exploiting both hardware and code is amazing.
I can see the argument of why this could be considered something entirely different beside Speedrunning, but the basic principle is still "start game, do thing, get credits".
The question is, where do we REALLY draw the line. As people have pointed out, someone could just change the game's code so that when they start the game, it instantly goes to the ending instead of the intro and you "beat" the game in 0.1 second.
The simplest thing I can think of is that the ROM should never be manipulated and be in it's original storage, albeit the ROM chip in a cart or a disk. Per example, someone could construct an entire custom console to read the chip, run the game, insert the ace and show the credits, I'd accept it as a run just by the sheer engineering effort that goes into this.
TL;DR: make AnythingGoes% for "extreme" hardware manipulations and don't allow manipulations of the original ROM.
I feel there's a definite difference between using glitches that anyone can find in a game to get to the end, and physically manipulating the hardware to cause malfunctions that act as glitches. To me, it's the difference between noticing that can jump off of one part of Rainbow Road onto another to get a massive advantage over competitors and shooting the competitors dead.
Don't get me wrong, these guys have stumbled on some interesting information, but at this point, they might as well just find a way to load directly to credits. But that's just me.
This is taking an "I WIN" button to the literal extreme.
I'm glad I don't have to cook Famicom soufflés on a hotplate to speedrun Dragon Quest 3 anymore.
I like the anything goes category. It would actually be cool from a game design standpoint.
I think that this kind of stuff should be it's completely own category
If they're just now discovering all these crazy glitches for games that are like 30+ years old... imagine what they're gonna be finding in games over the next 30 years lol
The stop-n-swop technique was definitely useful years back to help reverse-engineer NES mappers. One could start code with one cartridge with one's code on it, in a tight loop out of NES RAM (doing constant sprite DMA transfers, which froze the CPU for 512 cycles or so each time), then remove and put in another game, then when the loop exited receive commands over serial to run new code and test the mapper, without any hardware modifications save for disabling the CIC.
I found a new exploit! Simply remove the ROM chip and replace it with one where the game has been modified to boot directly to the credits. Bam, 0:00 record!
Its obsurd how people came accross these. Blows my mind on the odds of finding it...
Dragon Warrior was one of my favorite series of games back in the day.
We need to remember these consoles and cartridges are a finite resource and physical modifications and interactions can threaten the longevity to these items.
The mains hum method of detecting cheating is Phenomenal. It is AMAZING how age old games, just their existence, are able to create an entirely new subgenre, speed running, of which has afforded an entirely new set of jobs, etc.. I love technology
Bizarre hardware mods and the like are AMAZINGLY impressive. It's less about the playing/routing of the game though, so I agree it should be in a separate category. That being said, it's a really freaking cool category and I'd love to see what other shenanigans can be pulled off!
I would say that at the minimum, hardware modifications should have their own category.
Someone might not have the Torque 8 screws needed to get into a cartridge, so that would leave them at an unfair disadvantage.
i mean, the category is deadass called “anything goes“
I like the idea of playing around with hardware manipulations like this for the fun of showcasing it, so as long as they are their own category or a separate demonstration I'm ok with it.
Isn't hardware manipulation banned on most leaderboards? Haven't seen the video yet so I have no idea. Hype for it tho.
As long as this is a just for fun (non-competitive) idea, I'm all for it.
Yes, things like tilting cartridges to cause inconsistencies are almost always banned. Some communities have their own little meta using these tricks, but they don't tend to have many runners as the thought of ruining a cart or a machine is too much for most people (whether the fear is well founded or not).
I suppose its hard to draw a line of what counts as hardware manipulation. Is gunking up a disc manipulation? If so you'd have to have a whole set of rules and inspections concerning disc quality. Same with overheating. Is using a hot plate manipulation? Pretty easy to say yes. Is having my console in a poorly ventilated cabinet, or sitting in direct sunlight, or in the heat of a home with no A/C midsummer? Very hard to write rules for this stuff
@@PapaBadDadcumsuckgod I think intentionally gunking up a disc or overheating your console counts as hardware manipulation and should receive a clarifying rule and/or a new category.
@@PapaBadDadcumsuckgod I don't think the slippery slope argument applies to the question of "what is hardware manipulation"
Yes disc damage can be possibly hard to regulate 100% but if you see something non replicable happen in a run and it's found out to only have happened due to a scratched disc or overheating console they should just reject the run
Hardware manip should be looked at in a case by case basis for each game by each community, but generally should be a separate category. In Mario Kart it was discovered that some controllers were able to perform glitches others could not due to wear and tear and/or manufacturing differences that removed the nub from the back of the d-pad.
These runs feel like external modifications. When you're soldering circuits on a board, you're becoming a TAS.
Everything up until the modding of the game cartridge was great and ran on official hardware;
it's very cool that you can mess with the cartridge to get even better times, but that's not much different than adding a trainer into your run.
In fact a normal speedrun with a trainer would be slower and thus LESS of an advantage.
Without the cartridge mod this looks like a pretty legit speedrun to me though.
When speedrunning becomes having to basically alter code without even playing the game you are trying to beat.
Anything Goes is a good solution to this, I think
This is why I watch glitchless runs so often...
in my opinion every game needs a no holds barred category
I love the brains of speed runners.
Next: These speedrunners manipulated hardware to beat Bible Adventures in less than a minute.