The Ground Director or Air Marshal never turns his back on the plane until its been released. Here we have one that simply walks away...BOTH he AND the Aircraft Crew are to blame.
I have worked the ramp for over 27 years and it appears to me that the pilot released the brakes prematurely and without instruction from the ground crew
I use to be a Ground Crew controller. And the Hand single that he is giving the Pilot is the wood Blocks are in place in the front landing Gear and that you should apply the parking Brakes. But either way Its also the Pilots who are responsible for being in communication with the Ground Crew. Before taking their Foot of the Brakes or Releasing the Braking Brake. If the Ground Crew can not establish any communication then they just then use a Head set to contact the Flight Deck to speak with the Capitan. So either way Its the Pilots who Failed to Follow the Most important Rule Set By the FAA. Do not Release the Brakes Until the Capitan speaks to the Ground Crew on the Headset or by hand single that says Clear to release the Brakes. So the Whole thing Falls on the Pilot Not the Ground Crew.
its the The ground handler will show the bypass pin to the pilots to make it absolutely clear that it has been removed. The pushback is then complete, and the aircraft can start taxiing forward under its own power.
Looking closely, it appears that the marshaller has his open hands raised and has then closed his fists - the standard signal to apply park brakes. That is why he walked away. He must have received what he perceived to be an acknowledgement from the cockpit. Nothing more to be done. The pilots - once park brakes are applied should shut the engines down. You don't tow an aircraft into a tow-in gate with engines running. Importantly you don't stop short at a tow-in gate and then decide to power into the gate. The pushback would have been visible to the pilots as they taxiied up the entry line.
every comment is almost completely wrong. 100 percent, it is the pilots and the guys that are hooking up the tow bar. In no way was it the marshallers fault. there should have been a wheel choke. pilots are not to release breaks unless told by ground crew on headset or given proper hand signal. marshaller did not give the wrong signal, because dropping the arms is not the international signal for release breaks. the 90 percent of fault, is on the pilot, 10 percent ground crew
***it is the ramp agents fault, he gave the pilot the wrong signal. Instead of giving the pilots the set brakes signal, he gave the pilots the release brake signal. I know because i work at JFK
Yes. The ground marshaller is at fault for failing to communicate properly with the flight deck. The proper signals to use are: Stop, Set Brakes, Request at least 3 of the 4 engines be shut down, Hold (waiting for towbar and push tug to be hooked up as well as interphone communications), and then Headsets For Further Instructions. An additional wait of 5 minutes by the marshaller would have ensured the safe hookup and tow of the aircraft into the gate.
Oh-oh..... no fault of the pilot..... that is a HUGE bird; the tail is 6 stories and the max weight at take off is one MILLION tons! The Marshaller better have his shit together!
Obviously the pilot thought he could release his brakes and the marshaller should have kept the X up til the pushback was hooked up and plane was chocked.
Both. Marshal should have stayed in position with the X. Pilot should not have moved after rambler failed to do his job correctly. If in doubt call ops as a pilot and tell them what’s going on. But since rules have changed since 2010, things are different.
I say it's the marshallers fault cause the pilots can't see as to what is under them and there needs to be a person in front of the pilots to visually see and to tell them to set brakes. If the marshaller walks away then they have no visual person to tell them that there are people under the plane. I know this cause I am a ground marshaller myself.
The training of ground ramp personnel is not what it used to be. In the regulation era, you were trained but what the cheap labor ramp people now are not trained as they should be. Sometimes, the trainer is no better than the trainee. Learned to not trust the ramp, sometimes they are scary clueless.
The wheels should have been chocked. So we can say it was the fault of the pilots but in the end they will blame the ground crew because this never would have happened had the followed procedure for hooking up a towbar.
+John A The wheels probably wouldn't be chocked at that stage in the perpetration for pushback, the Marshaller is to blame as the Pilots have no way of knowing wether they are chocked or not.
Jacob Schiess The pushback tug was never connected. When I worked for Delta my guys didn't unchock the wheels until I was in the drivers seat of the pushback tug and gave them the unchock hand signal. We were also technically supposed to tell the captain to keep the brakes set for chock removal.
The Ground Director or Air Marshal never turns his back on the plane until its been released. Here we have one that simply walks away...BOTH he AND the Aircraft Crew are to blame.
I have worked the ramp for over 27 years and it appears to me that the pilot released the brakes prematurely and without instruction from the ground crew
Or maybe he was trying to push start the tug.
I use to be a Ground Crew controller. And the Hand single that he is giving the Pilot is the wood Blocks are in place in the front landing Gear and that you should apply the parking Brakes. But either way Its also the Pilots who are responsible for being in communication with the Ground Crew. Before taking their Foot of the Brakes or Releasing the Braking Brake.
If the Ground Crew can not establish any communication then they just then use a Head set to contact the Flight Deck to speak with the Capitan. So either way Its the Pilots who Failed to Follow the Most important Rule Set By the FAA. Do not Release the Brakes Until the Capitan speaks to the Ground Crew on the Headset or by hand single that says Clear to release the Brakes. So the Whole thing Falls on the Pilot Not the Ground Crew.
You are one hardcore fan of capital letters, aren't you?
its the The ground handler will show the bypass pin to the pilots to make it absolutely clear that it has been removed. The pushback is then complete, and the aircraft can start taxiing forward under its own power.
he's in German Mode where every noun is capitalized
Looking closely, it appears that the marshaller has his open hands raised and has then closed his fists - the standard signal to apply park brakes. That is why he walked away. He must have received what he perceived to be an acknowledgement from the cockpit. Nothing more to be done.
The pilots - once park brakes are applied should shut the engines down. You don't tow an aircraft into a tow-in gate with engines running. Importantly you don't stop short at a tow-in gate and then decide to power into the gate. The pushback would have been visible to the pilots as they taxiied up the entry line.
every comment is almost completely wrong. 100 percent, it is the pilots and the guys that are hooking up the tow bar. In no way was it the marshallers fault. there should have been a wheel choke. pilots are not to release breaks unless told by ground crew on headset or given proper hand signal. marshaller did not give the wrong signal, because dropping the arms is not the international signal for release breaks. the 90 percent of fault, is on the pilot, 10 percent ground crew
***it is the ramp agents fault, he gave the pilot the wrong signal. Instead of giving the pilots the set brakes signal, he gave the pilots the release brake signal. I know because i work at JFK
Yes. The ground marshaller is at fault for failing to communicate properly with the flight deck. The proper signals to use are: Stop, Set Brakes, Request at least 3 of the 4 engines be shut down, Hold (waiting for towbar and push tug to be hooked up as well as interphone communications), and then Headsets For Further Instructions. An additional wait of 5 minutes by the marshaller would have ensured the safe hookup and tow of the aircraft into the gate.
I wonder whether that AM was suspended or fired... that's a one giant blunder...
Oh-oh..... no fault of the pilot..... that is a HUGE bird; the tail is 6 stories and the max weight at take off is one MILLION tons! The Marshaller better have his shit together!
I think you're very much mistaken about the million tons.
a million pounds ma'am......
Should use a headset not hand signals
Pilot don’t put attention,he was tow into the gate way move forward?
Obviously the pilot thought he could release his brakes and the marshaller should have kept the X up til the pushback was hooked up and plane was chocked.
It looked like an Elephant pushing a little toy truck with it's trunk, Lol !!!
Both. Marshal should have stayed in position with the X. Pilot should not have moved after rambler failed to do his job correctly. If in doubt call ops as a pilot and tell them what’s going on. But since rules have changed since 2010, things are different.
Dammit, why are there so many accidents in New York?
hot headedness
do they not have any camera outside the airplane??
Is he fired?
I say it's the marshallers fault cause the pilots can't see as to what is under them and there needs to be a person in front of the pilots to visually see and to tell them to set brakes. If the marshaller walks away then they have no visual person to tell them that there are people under the plane. I know this cause I am a ground marshaller myself.
Marshallers fault! Sad!
The training of ground ramp personnel is not what it used to be. In the regulation era, you were trained but what the cheap labor ramp people now are not trained as they should be. Sometimes, the trainer is no better than the trainee. Learned to not trust the ramp, sometimes they are scary clueless.
Looks like there's a job opining at JFK!
The wheels should have been chocked. So we can say it was the fault of the pilots but in the end they will blame the ground crew because this never would have happened had the followed procedure for hooking up a towbar.
Wrong!!!
+John A The wheels probably wouldn't be chocked at that stage in the perpetration for pushback, the Marshaller is to blame as the Pilots have no way of knowing wether they are chocked or not.
Jacob Schiess The pushback tug was never connected. When I worked for Delta my guys didn't unchock the wheels until I was in the drivers seat of the pushback tug and gave them the unchock hand signal. We were also technically supposed to tell the captain to keep the brakes set for chock removal.
oops
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