My experience with 2nd-4th edition 40k was that you could reasonably play fun and/or narrative games at any points value. Now, 10th is clearly designed for 2000 point tournaments. I dislike tournaments, so 10th ed is not for me. Solution - I now have a lot of fun with OPR's rules and my old minis and the old lore.
I played a little bit of 40K during 2nd, though not much...mainly it was due to a few other people having armies and my brother and I having gotten into things with GorkaMorka, so had enough Orks to have about an army there. Most of it was playing with very small forces (500 points was a great thing there and used 3'x3' tables for it...which actually worked for the hobby tables at the game store where the owner only stocked 40k based stuff because he was forced into it to get the fantasy stuff (the other games being played were Fantasy, Mordheim, the WEG Star Wars, and Battletech) and he bitched all the time about how 40K wasn't worth learning because you only got a handfull of models in a box compared to full units in Fantasy. The few people there that did play 40K were the main reason I was gaming there, because they also played GorkaMorka, and I got into it because my uncle bought my brother and I each the starter box for it that year so was asking around about it. But several friends of mine and I still play 3e because the rules are self contained baring a couple armies that popped up during the edition. It also had the Heroes of the Imperium bonus list which is what inspired my own force, especially when the Deathwatch upgrade kit came out. Inquisitor, Assassin, 5 man Tactical Squad of Marines, and then a 5 man of either Devastators or another Tactical due to the Force Org charts for several missions, and the marines were kitted up in Death Watch gear...and then broke off into their own chapter later on due to some things with our own narrative.
Painters used layering, hi lights and washes all the way back to the mid 80s! The difference was, back then, GW didn’t take itself too seriously. It was a fun, relaxed hobby that was still discovering itself. That is the enduring appeal of earlier editions.
@@ChrisKCookI definitely used acrylics and Citadel black ink in 2002, learned washes later. I miss the old paint schemes and still base in Goblin Green and have many 2nd and 3rd edition Tyranids
I started in 82 painting minis in enamel, early Tamiya acrylics and brown ink from the art shop. The first set of fantasy acrylic paint I used came in a starter set of Grenadier minis for D&D.
I started in 3rd edition, even bought a couple faction books from 2nd. While those models were being phased out, I still actively bought the ones off the website and their archives and bits (when they used to sell them) to collect the more esoteric models. I do like some of the older special characters, not the colors. However, what I really miss is the kitbashing and customization that has been literally ruled and modeled out of the game. There was even an old 2nd edition white dwarf magazine that had a tutorial on making a deodorant stick grav tank. That is what is missing from modern edition, the soul of the game, the uniqueness and customization. For the record, I started in '99.
Scatter dice is the best thing about the old games. Every time I’m reminded of them it brings back fond memories. Also, guessing ranges before shooting with some weapons was also a good one. Some of these complete random elements which took out the competitiveness. It could also be that the last time I played 40K would have been around 2005 or so and so I’m just being nostalgic.
I agree with you, it is a bit more fun and relaxed when you have more random elements like scatter dice. I also miss scattered ice. Deep striking had some real risk to it, and the more random it is the less people can be competitive like you said. My game brutality is in the same vein, the dice will screw you just as much as your opponent will, it's hard to take it too seriously.
The biggest regret is that I didn’t take care of my first armies. Late 2nd edition/early 3rd edition space marines and tyranids I either threw out or otherwise misplaced over the years and I’d love to have them to repaint. I miss enjoying 40k and games workshop. Since 7th edition I just haven’t been able to enjoy the game and the company being shareholder oriented really saps the joy from the game. I’ve been able to keep my love for the universes alive by turning to 3D printing epic 40k
My (younger) brother started in 3rd edition, but I stayed away until 9th. (Too busy with kids.) Since 10th came out, I’ve only been playing 3rd edition with my brother and having so much more fun. No stratagems, so the focus on movement is much more important, plus the missions are missions and not random unrelated objectives each turn.
I feel the exact same way! It almost feels silly to be nostalgic something I never experienced. I think I’m mostly drawn the the aesthetic and vibe of old. The juxtaposition of the extreme violence and poppy cartoon feel just really makes me tick
I miss the cartoony-ness because it reminds me of the CARTOONS which I also loved as a kid. I am a product of GIJoe, HeMan and Transformers era cartoons. I actually experienced it back then, and my first army was the Rogue Trader box painted up as Blood Angels. For me, I love the old editions because it felt so wholesome and so hand crafted. EVERYTHING today put out by GW feels like a thinly veiled attempt to remove money from my wallet. Where GW used to give you demos of how to build models and terrain with literal garbage, today we have in the book rules that only interact with their high priced scenery. Also the fact that the game is basically written by and for tournaments (despite what they claim).
I am just a madman who doesnt fall for the GW and their crap, it like trying to bully someone you cant touch. 😂 Only bad thing is you need to find people who also like to be free.. it a damn shame since most people like to be shackled to a money extractor.
I got into 40K way back in 1988. I miss those days when GW and its staff didn't take themselves so seriously. The rule books were grim, violent, and raw....reminiscent of their sci-fi influences from that time.
The part about the music though, its been scientifically proven that modern popular music does indeed suck since the mid 2000s, (Based on music complexity and the interaction with the human brain) and 90's grunge/metal/rock was some of the best, and most challenging (as defined by interaction with our brains) popular music ever written since the era of classical music of Mozart, Beethoven etc. Some say that if Mozart was alive today that he would have composed hard rock music like the 90s and Tchaikovsky was basically writing heavy metal riffs for Orchestras.
For me its not only music, its architecture, cars, trains, etc. Cars started to get boring in the 90s, music in the early 2000s and architecture already in the 1950s.
@@vintageman91 my FIL was an designer at GM till 2013. From what he has told me, 99% of why every car looks the same these days is because of fuel economy and safety features, In order to get a high rating in both. Unless you do not care about one of those metrics then you get cool looking stuff like the Corvette.
@HeadCannonPrime Yes, i know its mostly because of that. Safety is of course important, but the simpler and more raw engines, the sound, features, the designs and proportions of old cars for example the 1960s is what keeps my interrest going.
I fell in love with 40k in the late 90s and still have many 2nd and 3rd edition models, and continue to paint in bright primary colors. I started with yellow spray paint and black GW ink, not sure when I learned washes but much later. Even thought I love how accessible painting advice is now, and the better paints, I miss that bright, more fun aesthetic. And as a Tyranid player I miss the silly mayhem of a Carnifex rolling an Imperial Guard gunline of Basilisks and tanks. I used to marvel at Epic 40k dioramas including a Squat army, Battlefleet Gothic minis, all those funky bright blue and red space marines, and a bright yellow Ork Stompa all on display at my store. What truly sold me on the hobby was when someone brought a scratch-built Chaos Emperor class Titan he beautifully detailed with 1000 skulls he got from plastic Halloween rings. I'm a better painter and player now, but the grim dark has gotten a bit too serious whereas I always saw it as a parody.
"The old GW was less greedy." Oh my lamb, no. It was always a business, just in the past it was part of the 80's metal head scene, it just moved on when mullets went out of fashion.
I got into Warhammer 40k at the tail end of 2nd edition. Nowadays I'm totally nostalgic for the bright vibrant colours and cartoony proportions of 2nd but when 3rd edition launched, I remember thinking how 2nd ed suddenly looked very outdated and ugly. I would even go as far as saying that I grew to dislike the style of 2nd edition due to how better looking 3rd edition was in comparison. It's only been in recent years after taking a ten year break from the hobby (from 2006 to 2016) that I've developed nostalgia for 2nd edition. I adore 2nd ed 40k now because it reminds me of being a kid and falling in love with the hobby all those years ago but there was a period of time for me where not enough time had passed for it to be nostalgic yet.
Every so often I come across one of your videos and I can relate so much to the topic it's uncanny. This one is also spot on. Although I did start my Warhammer plunge in 1993 with Fantasy I never had the opportunity to play 40k until 2010 and I "miss" 1st, 2nd, 3rd edition 40k. Thanks for posting!
I really like the cartoony look of the old miniatures! I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "serious miniatures" make the game or serious. The orks back in the day had all sorts of goofy aspects that are way more toned down now. The light hearted older game is more my style, but I get that it's not for everyone!
I grew up with the vibrant, cartoony miniatures of old back in second edition. Started with Squats, then moved to Chaos when they got squatted, then hung onto Orks as they were stuck with the same awful codex for 4 editions. Having returned in tenth (I was missing from 7th to 9th) my new chaos marine army is almost entirely printed in the old squat, cartoony proportions and painted in the vibrancy of the 90s when I first fell in love with the game.
I'm 43 and I didn't play 40k when I was a kid outside of one game of 2nd ed with my cousin. I didn't even like the game but I loved Heroquest, Mutant Chronicles and Dark World. I love the aesthetic of 80s and 90s minis because they remind me of 80s and 90s toys.
I much prefer the modern miniature style, myself. The sculpts are just a lot higher quality, and while I don't mind a bit of fun in minis, like the special guitar noise marine they released, or the new Comrade Red Goblin this Christmas, I much prefer putting paint to the modern models. I started with 5th edition myself, and still have most of my minis from back then though sadly my Land Raider got lost at some point in moving, and while those models still have a special place in my heart I would not want to go out of my way to go out and buy more of them. I even have some old 2nd edition Tactical Marines my dad gave me from his old collection, and I'll occasionally throw them out proxying them as Intercessors in casual games for fun, but the models are just so much less detailed, so difficult to get paint into places like the Aquilla because of how they hold their bolter across their chest. If you like the old models, more power to you. I respect them and respect their place in history for getting the hobby to the point it's at, but I would not want them to ever go back to the old style models.
I remember startin 1992 beeing 12 years old. I was out of the Hobby for over a decade. The Game was much easier to play. I wached some games of 40k recently and I think I have to graduate in a Degree to just follow the game… The models back in the 90‘s were not as good, as the models today are, but there was nothing to compare. I was wath we had and it was findishly expansive. The pricelevel ist the same. I still love the old stuff, but painting the newer ist much easier.
I got involved in 40k at the very tail end of 9th, but mostly was involved in 10th. This video is stating all my exact thoughts on the matter. I never played 2nd, 3rd, etc. yet after research of 40k, AoS, and fantasy, I just felt a great love and nostalgia for something I never had the chance to participate in. Amazing video. Thanks for taking time to speak on this very subject.
It's funny going back and looking in the original Rogue Trader book. 70% of modern 40K is already there (another 20% was added in the 2nd Edition _Codex Imperialis_ ). There's even stuff that doesn't get an airing now: non-Chaos Warp entities, character advancement, custom vehicle rules, engaging terrain hazards ("Member Rubber Moss?"), muskets, etc.
There was an obscure game called Aeronef that used "steam punk" airships in very straight forward gun barrage battles. The official minis were simple but a solid representation of the idea. Many people made custom home made ships and I always loved them even made some myself. Now the minis are more detailed and more weapons and unit types were included in newer rules other companies moved in on the idea with detailed sci-fi type minis and convoluted rule sets that focus more in combined arms maneuvers and how I hate all of them.
So I'm 64 years old and have played off and on since the first Rogue Trader hardback came out. I still have tons of the minis from the time - most painted, but some still in the pile of shame. Personally I enjoyed 3rd edition most of all.
I feel nostalgic for some of the older small model count games like necromunda, mordheim and even warhammer quest. I don’t miss older versions of 40K or warhammer fantasy as they always seemed to have some part of the rules that were just bent. Invisibility psychic power, frenzied khorne lord on a dragon with 10 attacks and strikes first, my whole army shooting a rhino for two turns and nothing but glancing hits…ugh. But some of the old models were fun. Original plastic Tyranids warriors didn’t know what they wanted to be when they grew up. My Eldar still have goblin green bases and flock because that was the style of the time.
The original tyranid warriors are the exception to the rule as far as I'm concerned. If you look at them from the neck down, the models are really not that bad, a little weird but not bad. But those goofy faces on the tyranid warriors are just awful. They ruin the whole model.
still painting my base edges the goblin green man with some flock here and there. Warpstone green gets pretty close if you ever feel the need to scratch that itch.
While I do enjoy most of the new minis GW puts out, a many of the older minis still look good to me. Well, for Orks anyway. I've actually bought a handful of older Ork minis that I plan on sprinkling into my army when time and motivation permit.
I feel very similarly about Magic the Gathering. I see how old decks used to play and how some of that old art felt cobbled together and it makes me sad that the game is so corporate now. Even though I didn't start playing until 2020 I wish I had started playing as a child.
Oh man, I completely agree with you about old magic. I started playing in 1997 and a lot of the old cards were still in circulation at that point. A lot of my decks that I have since sold had a lot of ice age and old sets. The artwork was so neat. It had a darker and more menacing fantasy feel I think. 100% agree with you
My adventure with 40k started around 3rd and 4th edition. A lot of the goofy stuff of the early days was phased out by that point - and I learned to appreciate it over time - these were times of 40k moulding into what we commonly know - and I miss a lot of more RPG-like rules that existed back in the day. 40k of 3rd edition was peak grimdark to me. Ridiculous, dark, setting like a living cover of a death-metal album with some power-metal thrown for good measure. Over time I feel like a lot of this climate that brought me to 40k in the first place dissipated. It became brighter, more sanitised, more corporate... some of the vibes were lost. I especially see it in Primaris marines - they are too tacticool for my taste, not enough of the monastic space knight left. As for the editions... I'm not exactly a huge fan of the wide-army buffs and such we have today. I miss certain rules, like instant death, old force weapons and especially some of the old vehicle rules. I honestly hate how vehicles are done in modern 40k. Especially the "fire all weapons" rule. I can't get the image of Malcador Defender spinning 360 degrees every turn out of my head. The lack of armour facing, damage tables, scatter dice. A lot of the 40k became basically a damage contest. For a brief moment (I think it was 5th or 6th edition?) 40k had proper flanking rules, directional cover, proper line of sight. It had flaws, but instead of getting refined, these rules got dropped for the sake of simplicity - but with said simplicity we lost a lot of depth.
just started the hobby last year and I had the opportunity to buy a 3d edition Blood angels battleforce with a captain and a furioso dreadnaught at a con earlier this year, but I only picked up the dreadnaught and I'm regretting not getting the whole shebang pretty hard tbh.
I joined in 9th, so I don't really have any nostalgia for old minis, but I still try buy second hand retro minis from 3rd to 4th Edition. Why? They just have a lot of personality and are very easily kitbashable. Honestly, why can't people appreciate vintage stuff without being accused of having nostalgia glasses?
That's my Ultramarines force in the photo at the start - I'd have appreciated a nod at least, since the watermark is cropped... 2nd ed is glorious fun. And the scatter die, artillery die, and sustained fire die are architects of utter chaos! :D
The watermark was not intentionally cropped out, the photo was just zoomed in so you could see the models better. I honestly thought it was a Games Workshop photo. I didn't even notice your name at the bottom. Sorry about that! I guess it's a compliment that the photo quality and paint job was so good that I thought it came from a white dwarf.
Old Warhammer makes me thing of Punk and Thrash album covers, Poppy Cartoon ULTRA-VIOLENCE! Seriously tho old warhammer was if anything more serious for me because of that Aesthetic, it forced you to suspend your disbelief to engage with it wholly, the way I imagined 4th ed battles in my head was far more "grimdark" than what the new clean tacticool aesthetic evokes. I'm getting rid of all my primaris and bringing my space marines back and it's already reinvigorating my imagination so I don't think its just nostalgia. As for the old rules, give em a try, I play games that still use similar rules and I personally have much more fun with them, the game truly isn't over until its over. Battles should play out like battles not a board game.
I relate it to Halo. Both are fun now but it's tiered towards competitive. That attracts a certain sweaty type of player and whilst I do like competition, it's a pass time, I want to chill and not overthink it. I miss the simple fun of it.
I absolutely feel this sentiment hard. The silliness of old warhammer art is what got me interested in the game. They need, desperately to embrace more silliness. The fan base needs to embrace the silliness. 40k, fantasy and AOS are all heavy metal over the top goofy goodness if we just let them be that way. There are power armor brainwashed maniacs riding space bikes waving chainsaws at drunk space orcs shooting lightning out of garbage robots. This shit is silly! And silly is good! Embrace the goofy! Grim Dark is supposed to be tongue in cheek. Grim dark is supposed to be so sneering and mean spirited that it's funny! Bring that back. Playing with little fantasy angry guys on a table is inherently silly and fun.
I think they should be back with basic colors schemes as an option in their catalog with tutorials and stuff, because its way easier for a starter player to paint that than the stuff they show as "paint like this bro". A very simple green orc, deep blue ultrasmurfs and stuff like that.
because some of us were around for older editions of warhammer fantasy and warhammer 40k. Some of us miss that people were encouraged to make and play their own models. Now its just corporatism and following a meta. Then yall cry about how its corporatism and following a meta.
I am in the same boat. In my 30's. Never played Warhammer. Within 6 months I have collected a massive collection of vibrant colored, Eavy Metal style painted Rogue Trader, 2nd, 3rd edition and Epic 40k collection. I even have the first White Dwarf magazine that features a preview of Rogue Trader. I also got the injured space marine minifig in your thumbnail but he's painted Crimson Fist style. I love old kitbashes and have a kitbash of the deodorant grav tank. The original Land Raider and Chaos Dreadnought are some of my favorite designs in my collection. I'm in the minority when I say I actually hate the modern realistic proportions on minifigs and prefer the stylized proportions of the older editions. When I learned about the difference between modern and oldschool Games Workshop I was so turned off by the modern stuff that I boycott them fully. Modern 40k tabletop is horrendous because GW has become far too selfish and greedy. I've seen where people who don't use official plastic bases and 3rd party ones being not allowed to play certain tournaments. I would never ever want to participate in a try-hard tabletop tournament that takes itself too seriously or give a company money that doesn't allow people to play with old models in their stores. So instead of GW getting thousands of dollars from me, 3rd party sellers on ebay and other stores get it instead. If you can't afford old Rogue Trader models then I am all for buying plastic recasts or 3d printing because screw GW and their disgusting policies.
The attitude of the general community and the company has changed a hell of a lot since the RT/2nd ed time. The corporatisation of GW hasn't really brought the benefits many newer players think it has. Most of us OG players aren't really nostalgic for those days because we have carried on with the same attitudes towards it. We still homebrew and scratch build as much as we ever did. A thing to note about that is that the way GW produces kits, sells terrain, gears rules towards comp play, etc is that it makes it much harder for the newer players to get involved with the DIY side of the hobby. The GW of today would never release a book about how to build battlefields out of glue, cardboard and sand. 40k of 30 years ago definitely felt more creative and open. The level of detail they've put into the fluff over that time has pushed it more towards a universe where the fluff is pretty much set with little room for unknown crazy weirdness or spooky mystery. But that's only really because they stopped encouraging players to make up their own stuff. We can all still do all that but we as a community do a terrible job at making that side of the hobby visible to newer players. As players we don't have to be passive consumers. We can do whatever we want with our toy soldiers
Nah, I was there, back in the old age, it legitimately was better. Did it have its flaws, sure, but the game felt like it was less about keeping GW selling its newest bs, and the minis had way more character, without being way over detailed. Almost all my new projects are retro prints, love that 3d printing is keeping old school style minis flowing.
It's not rose coloured glasses - Warhammer lost its sense of "humour" from about 2000 onwards. Both fantasy and 40k - the best way to see this is to look at the nature of the Orks from the early days and how they changed with the introduction of 3rd edition 40k and 6th edition fantasy. They lost their silliness and humour, they went from being soccer hooligans in space effectively to monstrous gorilla like barbarians in space almost overnight with the release of those editions. The humour was lost, and it became more 'serious' and 'gothic' than it was before.
I bought RT at a comic shop in mid '88, and I dont feel much nostalgia to the model quality. Sure, pouring through it brings back memories, but I am not "Pining for the Fjords" so to speak over it. But then again, I feel absolute antipathy towards 8bit video games compared to the photorealism we have now. You wouldnt catch me dead playing pac-man if my other choice was Ghost of Tsushima for example. I do miss the tone of the game though. In this you and I are in lock step agreement; and while its good to have serious tones, I always had more fun coming up with ridiculous scenarios why my ork stole that space marine's beer and now this must result in exterminatus. I still maintain that a liberal use of the term "dollies" at the table weeds out a lot of issues in this sense when reminded of the literal nature of this activity.
I did get to play in the 3rd edition stuff. Honestly, the humor that was put into 40k orks is what really hooked me into not just that army but the game as a whole. I mean, paint the vehicle red, and it went faster. Why? Because the orks thought that’s how it worked, so it did. With every step away from that I lost more interest.
To me it's like going back and listening to older albums of a band. They are probably objectively worst. But what you'll find is what was special about that band in the first place.
That is like asking why do you watch/want to watch OG dr Who or Red Dwarf , instead of modern CGI masterpiece like Quantum Mania or "Star Trek" Discovery.
Orks and goblins were just comical their sculpts even old golden demon had fun entries that weren't disqualified and even won in the 90s. Now a lot get disqualified for not portraying the direction the company wants to go.
i guess being weird enough to collect these toys is not enough for some people, they have to have a special condition for it aswell, well, im just watching
I played RT and loved the old metal marine sculpts and the modularity of the RTB01 box. I stopped playing during 2nd edition as it was too bright and toy-like for my taste. The plastic mono-pose Mk7 marines were definitely a step backwards in my mind. Sticking plastic arms to metal bodies was another no no for me. They always fell of mid game.
What???? Never played 2 nd edition or 3rd? Next you will tell me you didn't play hero quest, space hulk or space crusade!!! The horror! 2nd edition was a blast. Used to play it on my mates pool table. Soda cans as towers, Lego trees and a few model train trees as well. Good times. I had orcs... 😂
Violence turned up to 11 beside gritty realism is sad and disturbing. Violence turned up to 11 beside cartoony visuals is low stakes fun. You don't have to have played old editions or painted old models to recognize that, or realize that you think low stakes fun sounds like the option you'd prefer. I understand that the precision of modern models is nicer, but I'd prefer if there was a way to have that and the "characterful" type of stuff GW used to put out just because it was fun to paint weird little dudes.
The only thing that too goofy in 40k is the choas dogs. They claim to the best but they were scared of a physical guy with a sword lol. Khrone never won a proper fight. Slapanest is fugly. Tzeetch is a nerd who fights himself. Nurgle is the only one that can do something with his plagues and claim souls. Just like everything about Choas is so stupid it makes me not like 40k 😢
Well simple the price the rules and miniatures. Now the miniatures are not a problem since I got most of mine 25-30 years ago. The rules well GW hasn't done a good set of rules for basically as long and their track record of killing off their games is just far to long of a list. Don't trust them and there are better rules and quite frankly better miniatures to be had for far cheaper. So I will take my few thousands fantasy miniatures and use some other set of rules.
You dont have a condition. The old stuff is cool and good. Dont be deceived by people saying they look bad and that its nostalgia. My young coworker was listening to pink floyd the other day too.
Cartoony miniatures really do it for me. But I am strange like that. I also love the randomness of the old rules.
My experience with 2nd-4th edition 40k was that you could reasonably play fun and/or narrative games at any points value. Now, 10th is clearly designed for 2000 point tournaments. I dislike tournaments, so 10th ed is not for me. Solution - I now have a lot of fun with OPR's rules and my old minis and the old lore.
I still prefer "oldhammer" to OPR because of the goofy rules. OPR is fun though.
I played a little bit of 40K during 2nd, though not much...mainly it was due to a few other people having armies and my brother and I having gotten into things with GorkaMorka, so had enough Orks to have about an army there. Most of it was playing with very small forces (500 points was a great thing there and used 3'x3' tables for it...which actually worked for the hobby tables at the game store where the owner only stocked 40k based stuff because he was forced into it to get the fantasy stuff (the other games being played were Fantasy, Mordheim, the WEG Star Wars, and Battletech) and he bitched all the time about how 40K wasn't worth learning because you only got a handfull of models in a box compared to full units in Fantasy.
The few people there that did play 40K were the main reason I was gaming there, because they also played GorkaMorka, and I got into it because my uncle bought my brother and I each the starter box for it that year so was asking around about it.
But several friends of mine and I still play 3e because the rules are self contained baring a couple armies that popped up during the edition.
It also had the Heroes of the Imperium bonus list which is what inspired my own force, especially when the Deathwatch upgrade kit came out.
Inquisitor, Assassin, 5 man Tactical Squad of Marines, and then a 5 man of either Devastators or another Tactical due to the Force Org charts for several missions, and the marines were kitted up in Death Watch gear...and then broke off into their own chapter later on due to some things with our own narrative.
10th is definitely designed for Little Timmy and the WAAC Powergamer Dudebros
Painters used layering, hi lights and washes all the way back to the mid 80s! The difference was, back then, GW didn’t take itself too seriously. It was a fun, relaxed hobby that was still discovering itself. That is the enduring appeal of earlier editions.
Also at least as far back as 2nd Edition People used Acrylic rather enamels...
@@ChrisKCookI definitely used acrylics and Citadel black ink in 2002, learned washes later. I miss the old paint schemes and still base in Goblin Green and have many 2nd and 3rd edition Tyranids
@KayleyWhalen i started in 1994 and i only usd Citidel Acrylics...
I started in 82 painting minis in enamel, early Tamiya acrylics and brown ink from the art shop. The first set of fantasy acrylic paint I used came in a starter set of Grenadier minis for D&D.
@Perchpole so before Warhammer?
I don't miss 2e at all... I'm still playing, painting and collecting it almost 30 years on :)
I started in 3rd edition, even bought a couple faction books from 2nd. While those models were being phased out, I still actively bought the ones off the website and their archives and bits (when they used to sell them) to collect the more esoteric models. I do like some of the older special characters, not the colors. However, what I really miss is the kitbashing and customization that has been literally ruled and modeled out of the game. There was even an old 2nd edition white dwarf magazine that had a tutorial on making a deodorant stick grav tank. That is what is missing from modern edition, the soul of the game, the uniqueness and customization. For the record, I started in '99.
Scatter dice is the best thing about the old games. Every time I’m reminded of them it brings back fond memories. Also, guessing ranges before shooting with some weapons was also a good one. Some of these complete random elements which took out the competitiveness.
It could also be that the last time I played 40K would have been around 2005 or so and so I’m just being nostalgic.
I agree with you, it is a bit more fun and relaxed when you have more random elements like scatter dice. I also miss scattered ice. Deep striking had some real risk to it, and the more random it is the less people can be competitive like you said. My game brutality is in the same vein, the dice will screw you just as much as your opponent will, it's hard to take it too seriously.
Love the old art style
The biggest regret is that I didn’t take care of my first armies. Late 2nd edition/early 3rd edition space marines and tyranids I either threw out or otherwise misplaced over the years and I’d love to have them to repaint.
I miss enjoying 40k and games workshop. Since 7th edition I just haven’t been able to enjoy the game and the company being shareholder oriented really saps the joy from the game. I’ve been able to keep my love for the universes alive by turning to 3D printing epic 40k
My (younger) brother started in 3rd edition, but I stayed away until 9th. (Too busy with kids.) Since 10th came out, I’ve only been playing 3rd edition with my brother and having so much more fun.
No stratagems, so the focus on movement is much more important, plus the missions are missions and not random unrelated objectives each turn.
I feel the exact same way! It almost feels silly to be nostalgic something I never experienced.
I think I’m mostly drawn the the aesthetic and vibe of old. The juxtaposition of the extreme violence and poppy cartoon feel just really makes me tick
Same here, I was born in the early 90s but there are many cool things from way before i was born.
I miss the cartoony-ness because it reminds me of the CARTOONS which I also loved as a kid. I am a product of GIJoe, HeMan and Transformers era cartoons. I actually experienced it back then, and my first army was the Rogue Trader box painted up as Blood Angels. For me, I love the old editions because it felt so wholesome and so hand crafted. EVERYTHING today put out by GW feels like a thinly veiled attempt to remove money from my wallet. Where GW used to give you demos of how to build models and terrain with literal garbage, today we have in the book rules that only interact with their high priced scenery. Also the fact that the game is basically written by and for tournaments (despite what they claim).
I am just a madman who doesnt fall for the GW and their crap, it like trying to bully someone you cant touch. 😂
Only bad thing is you need to find people who also like to be free.. it a damn shame since most people like to be shackled to a money extractor.
It is easy to recognize something better. Anemoia is just that.
I got into 40K way back in 1988. I miss those days when GW and its staff didn't take themselves so seriously. The rule books were grim, violent, and raw....reminiscent of their sci-fi influences from that time.
I feel this way for many current games too. Ones I know I’ll never get to play, whether for budget reasons or time.
The part about the music though, its been scientifically proven that modern popular music does indeed suck since the mid 2000s, (Based on music complexity and the interaction with the human brain) and 90's grunge/metal/rock was some of the best, and most challenging (as defined by interaction with our brains) popular music ever written since the era of classical music of Mozart, Beethoven etc. Some say that if Mozart was alive today that he would have composed hard rock music like the 90s and Tchaikovsky was basically writing heavy metal riffs for Orchestras.
All modern music is written by 2 jewish guys. Make of that what you will.
For me its not only music, its architecture, cars, trains, etc.
Cars started to get boring in the 90s, music in the early 2000s and architecture already in the 1950s.
@@vintageman91 my FIL was an designer at GM till 2013. From what he has told me, 99% of why every car looks the same these days is because of fuel economy and safety features, In order to get a high rating in both. Unless you do not care about one of those metrics then you get cool looking stuff like the Corvette.
@@mitchf.4450 That is demonstrably false.
@HeadCannonPrime Yes, i know its mostly because of that.
Safety is of course important, but the simpler and more raw engines, the sound, features, the designs and proportions of old cars for example the 1960s is what keeps my interrest going.
2nd Edition Noise Marines are still some of the best ever made imo
I fell in love with 40k in the late 90s and still have many 2nd and 3rd edition models, and continue to paint in bright primary colors. I started with yellow spray paint and black GW ink, not sure when I learned washes but much later. Even thought I love how accessible painting advice is now, and the better paints, I miss that bright, more fun aesthetic. And as a Tyranid player I miss the silly mayhem of a Carnifex rolling an Imperial Guard gunline of Basilisks and tanks. I used to marvel at Epic 40k dioramas including a Squat army, Battlefleet Gothic minis, all those funky bright blue and red space marines, and a bright yellow Ork Stompa all on display at my store. What truly sold me on the hobby was when someone brought a scratch-built Chaos Emperor class Titan he beautifully detailed with 1000 skulls he got from plastic Halloween rings. I'm a better painter and player now, but the grim dark has gotten a bit too serious whereas I always saw it as a parody.
"The old GW was less greedy." Oh my lamb, no. It was always a business, just in the past it was part of the 80's metal head scene, it just moved on when mullets went out of fashion.
I dont judge anyone for liking the old stuff but I see old 40K as a thankfully gone past. The new editions and models seem so much better to me
I feel about that for World of Warcraft.
I swear if i get some money I want to make a Arthas the Lich King model.
Why if you get some money? Green stuff is cheap so are spare bits. You can do it man.
I got into Warhammer 40k at the tail end of 2nd edition.
Nowadays I'm totally nostalgic for the bright vibrant colours and cartoony proportions of 2nd but when 3rd edition launched, I remember thinking how 2nd ed suddenly looked very outdated and ugly. I would even go as far as saying that I grew to dislike the style of 2nd edition due to how better looking 3rd edition was in comparison.
It's only been in recent years after taking a ten year break from the hobby (from 2006 to 2016) that I've developed nostalgia for 2nd edition. I adore 2nd ed 40k now because it reminds me of being a kid and falling in love with the hobby all those years ago but there was a period of time for me where not enough time had passed for it to be nostalgic yet.
Every so often I come across one of your videos and I can relate so much to the topic it's uncanny. This one is also spot on. Although I did start my Warhammer plunge in 1993 with Fantasy I never had the opportunity to play 40k until 2010 and I "miss" 1st, 2nd, 3rd edition 40k. Thanks for posting!
Thanks for saying that!
I really like the cartoony look of the old miniatures! I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "serious miniatures" make the game or serious. The orks back in the day had all sorts of goofy aspects that are way more toned down now. The light hearted older game is more my style, but I get that it's not for everyone!
I grew up with the vibrant, cartoony miniatures of old back in second edition.
Started with Squats, then moved to Chaos when they got squatted, then hung onto Orks as they were stuck with the same awful codex for 4 editions.
Having returned in tenth (I was missing from 7th to 9th) my new chaos marine army is almost entirely printed in the old squat, cartoony proportions and painted in the vibrancy of the 90s when I first fell in love with the game.
I'm 43 and I didn't play 40k when I was a kid outside of one game of 2nd ed with my cousin. I didn't even like the game but I loved Heroquest, Mutant Chronicles and Dark World. I love the aesthetic of 80s and 90s minis because they remind me of 80s and 90s toys.
I actually really love the old rogue trader minis (enough to start collecting and painting them) and I’ve never even played 40k!
I much prefer the modern miniature style, myself. The sculpts are just a lot higher quality, and while I don't mind a bit of fun in minis, like the special guitar noise marine they released, or the new Comrade Red Goblin this Christmas, I much prefer putting paint to the modern models. I started with 5th edition myself, and still have most of my minis from back then though sadly my Land Raider got lost at some point in moving, and while those models still have a special place in my heart I would not want to go out of my way to go out and buy more of them. I even have some old 2nd edition Tactical Marines my dad gave me from his old collection, and I'll occasionally throw them out proxying them as Intercessors in casual games for fun, but the models are just so much less detailed, so difficult to get paint into places like the Aquilla because of how they hold their bolter across their chest.
If you like the old models, more power to you. I respect them and respect their place in history for getting the hobby to the point it's at, but I would not want them to ever go back to the old style models.
I remember startin 1992 beeing 12 years old. I was out of the Hobby for over a decade. The Game was much easier to play. I wached some games of 40k recently and I think I have to graduate in a Degree to just follow the game…
The models back in the 90‘s were not as good, as the models today are, but there was nothing to compare. I was wath we had and it was findishly expansive. The pricelevel ist the same.
I still love the old stuff, but painting the newer ist much easier.
I got involved in 40k at the very tail end of 9th, but mostly was involved in 10th.
This video is stating all my exact thoughts on the matter. I never played 2nd, 3rd, etc. yet after research of 40k, AoS, and fantasy, I just felt a great love and nostalgia for something I never had the chance to participate in.
Amazing video. Thanks for taking time to speak on this very subject.
Glad to hear I'm not the only one who feels this way!
It's funny going back and looking in the original Rogue Trader book. 70% of modern 40K is already there (another 20% was added in the 2nd Edition _Codex Imperialis_ ). There's even stuff that doesn't get an airing now: non-Chaos Warp entities, character advancement, custom vehicle rules, engaging terrain hazards ("Member Rubber Moss?"), muskets, etc.
it wasnt about the looks back then, its was about feeling and sharing time with likeminded people
Literally Warhammer/GW still feels like that but I’m just saying that cuz I got into it in 2014 and have my own biases
I think that early games workshop was more about nerds making a game for nerds.
There was an obscure game called Aeronef that used "steam punk" airships in very straight forward gun barrage battles. The official minis were simple but a solid representation of the idea. Many people made custom home made ships and I always loved them even made some myself. Now the minis are more detailed and more weapons and unit types were included in newer rules other companies moved in on the idea with detailed sci-fi type minis and convoluted rule sets that focus more in combined arms maneuvers and how I hate all of them.
I'll have to check that out! Never heard of it.
So I'm 64 years old and have played off and on since the first Rogue Trader hardback came out. I still have tons of the minis from the time - most painted, but some still in the pile of shame. Personally I enjoyed 3rd edition most of all.
I feel nostalgic for some of the older small model count games like necromunda, mordheim and even warhammer quest. I don’t miss older versions of 40K or warhammer fantasy as they always seemed to have some part of the rules that were just bent. Invisibility psychic power, frenzied khorne lord on a dragon with 10 attacks and strikes first, my whole army shooting a rhino for two turns and nothing but glancing hits…ugh. But some of the old models were fun. Original plastic Tyranids warriors didn’t know what they wanted to be when they grew up. My Eldar still have goblin green bases and flock because that was the style of the time.
The original tyranid warriors are the exception to the rule as far as I'm concerned. If you look at them from the neck down, the models are really not that bad, a little weird but not bad. But those goofy faces on the tyranid warriors are just awful. They ruin the whole model.
still painting my base edges the goblin green man with some flock here and there. Warpstone green gets pretty close if you ever feel the need to scratch that itch.
2-4 was a fun time. Orks with crazy mevhcanics still where it goes off great or when it doesn't, boom
how could you not love this weird chap from the thumbnail ? I bet it's the first Cato Sicarius model
I do love that miniature! It's so weird and goofy. Has a lot of character.
While I do enjoy most of the new minis GW puts out, a many of the older minis still look good to me. Well, for Orks anyway. I've actually bought a handful of older Ork minis that I plan on sprinkling into my army when time and motivation permit.
I feel very similarly about Magic the Gathering. I see how old decks used to play and how some of that old art felt cobbled together and it makes me sad that the game is so corporate now. Even though I didn't start playing until 2020 I wish I had started playing as a child.
Oh man, I completely agree with you about old magic. I started playing in 1997 and a lot of the old cards were still in circulation at that point. A lot of my decks that I have since sold had a lot of ice age and old sets. The artwork was so neat. It had a darker and more menacing fantasy feel I think. 100% agree with you
That thumbnail....
"Mission Start!! *Chk-kang!* Brother Marco!"
My adventure with 40k started around 3rd and 4th edition.
A lot of the goofy stuff of the early days was phased out by that point - and I learned to appreciate it over time - these were times of 40k moulding into what we commonly know - and I miss a lot of more RPG-like rules that existed back in the day.
40k of 3rd edition was peak grimdark to me. Ridiculous, dark, setting like a living cover of a death-metal album with some power-metal thrown for good measure.
Over time I feel like a lot of this climate that brought me to 40k in the first place dissipated. It became brighter, more sanitised, more corporate... some of the vibes were lost. I especially see it in Primaris marines - they are too tacticool for my taste, not enough of the monastic space knight left.
As for the editions... I'm not exactly a huge fan of the wide-army buffs and such we have today. I miss certain rules, like instant death, old force weapons and especially some of the old vehicle rules.
I honestly hate how vehicles are done in modern 40k. Especially the "fire all weapons" rule. I can't get the image of Malcador Defender spinning 360 degrees every turn out of my head. The lack of armour facing, damage tables, scatter dice.
A lot of the 40k became basically a damage contest.
For a brief moment (I think it was 5th or 6th edition?) 40k had proper flanking rules, directional cover, proper line of sight. It had flaws, but instead of getting refined, these rules got dropped for the sake of simplicity - but with said simplicity we lost a lot of depth.
I got both old and modern miniatures, but i prefer many older things in general.
just started the hobby last year and I had the opportunity to buy a 3d edition Blood angels battleforce with a captain and a furioso dreadnaught at a con earlier this year, but I only picked up the dreadnaught and I'm regretting not getting the whole shebang pretty hard tbh.
I joined in 9th, so I don't really have any nostalgia for old minis, but I still try buy second hand retro minis from 3rd to 4th Edition. Why? They just have a lot of personality and are very easily kitbashable.
Honestly, why can't people appreciate vintage stuff without being accused of having nostalgia glasses?
Reason why i like my old marines there so silly and i like making them vibrant hell i tracked down a goblin green from the 90s for my bases
You can thank Mike McVey for the paint jobs on those miniatures.
That's my Ultramarines force in the photo at the start - I'd have appreciated a nod at least, since the watermark is cropped...
2nd ed is glorious fun. And the scatter die, artillery die, and sustained fire die are architects of utter chaos! :D
The watermark was not intentionally cropped out, the photo was just zoomed in so you could see the models better. I honestly thought it was a Games Workshop photo. I didn't even notice your name at the bottom. Sorry about that! I guess it's a compliment that the photo quality and paint job was so good that I thought it came from a white dwarf.
I still play 2nd Ed to this day never tried another version. Also that ultramarine army in you video 1min in is a mate of mine.
Old music, late 90s early 2000s, starts hyperventalating noo noo we arent old noooo
😄
Old Warhammer makes me thing of Punk and Thrash album covers, Poppy Cartoon ULTRA-VIOLENCE!
Seriously tho old warhammer was if anything more serious for me because of that Aesthetic, it forced you to suspend your disbelief to engage with it wholly, the way I imagined 4th ed battles in my head was far more "grimdark" than what the new clean tacticool aesthetic evokes. I'm getting rid of all my primaris and bringing my space marines back and it's already reinvigorating my imagination so I don't think its just nostalgia.
As for the old rules, give em a try, I play games that still use similar rules and I personally have much more fun with them, the game truly isn't over until its over. Battles should play out like battles not a board game.
I relate it to Halo. Both are fun now but it's tiered towards competitive. That attracts a certain sweaty type of player and whilst I do like competition, it's a pass time, I want to chill and not overthink it.
I miss the simple fun of it.
1:42 - HERESY!
I have this commissar. He's one of the crown jewels in my Rogue Trader era Imperial Guard army (1988-1992). 😆
Haha. I don't think that looks too bad, all of these old models have such charm.
I absolutely feel this sentiment hard. The silliness of old warhammer art is what got me interested in the game. They need, desperately to embrace more silliness. The fan base needs to embrace the silliness. 40k, fantasy and AOS are all heavy metal over the top goofy goodness if we just let them be that way. There are power armor brainwashed maniacs riding space bikes waving chainsaws at drunk space orcs shooting lightning out of garbage robots. This shit is silly! And silly is good! Embrace the goofy! Grim Dark is supposed to be tongue in cheek. Grim dark is supposed to be so sneering and mean spirited that it's funny! Bring that back. Playing with little fantasy angry guys on a table is inherently silly and fun.
youre totally right. Because removing grim dark for silliness isnt what got us in the situation where the hobby is watered down.
I think they should be back with basic colors schemes as an option in their catalog with tutorials and stuff, because its way easier for a starter player to paint that than the stuff they show as "paint like this bro".
A very simple green orc, deep blue ultrasmurfs and stuff like that.
its called having taste. congrats.
because some of us were around for older editions of warhammer fantasy and warhammer 40k. Some of us miss that people were encouraged to make and play their own models. Now its just corporatism and following a meta. Then yall cry about how its corporatism and following a meta.
I am in the same boat. In my 30's. Never played Warhammer. Within 6 months I have collected a massive collection of vibrant colored, Eavy Metal style painted Rogue Trader, 2nd, 3rd edition and Epic 40k collection. I even have the first White Dwarf magazine that features a preview of Rogue Trader. I also got the injured space marine minifig in your thumbnail but he's painted Crimson Fist style. I love old kitbashes and have a kitbash of the deodorant grav tank. The original Land Raider and Chaos Dreadnought are some of my favorite designs in my collection. I'm in the minority when I say I actually hate the modern realistic proportions on minifigs and prefer the stylized proportions of the older editions. When I learned about the difference between modern and oldschool Games Workshop I was so turned off by the modern stuff that I boycott them fully. Modern 40k tabletop is horrendous because GW has become far too selfish and greedy. I've seen where people who don't use official plastic bases and 3rd party ones being not allowed to play certain tournaments. I would never ever want to participate in a try-hard tabletop tournament that takes itself too seriously or give a company money that doesn't allow people to play with old models in their stores. So instead of GW getting thousands of dollars from me, 3rd party sellers on ebay and other stores get it instead. If you can't afford old Rogue Trader models then I am all for buying plastic recasts or 3d printing because screw GW and their disgusting policies.
I agree, I think the older models are just so much more charming.
The attitude of the general community and the company has changed a hell of a lot since the RT/2nd ed time. The corporatisation of GW hasn't really brought the benefits many newer players think it has.
Most of us OG players aren't really nostalgic for those days because we have carried on with the same attitudes towards it. We still homebrew and scratch build as much as we ever did. A thing to note about that is that the way GW produces kits, sells terrain, gears rules towards comp play, etc is that it makes it much harder for the newer players to get involved with the DIY side of the hobby. The GW of today would never release a book about how to build battlefields out of glue, cardboard and sand.
40k of 30 years ago definitely felt more creative and open. The level of detail they've put into the fluff over that time has pushed it more towards a universe where the fluff is pretty much set with little room for unknown crazy weirdness or spooky mystery. But that's only really because they stopped encouraging players to make up their own stuff. We can all still do all that but we as a community do a terrible job at making that side of the hobby visible to newer players.
As players we don't have to be passive consumers. We can do whatever we want with our toy soldiers
Nah, I was there, back in the old age, it legitimately was better. Did it have its flaws, sure, but the game felt like it was less about keeping GW selling its newest bs, and the minis had way more character, without being way over detailed. Almost all my new projects are retro prints, love that 3d printing is keeping old school style minis flowing.
It's not rose coloured glasses - Warhammer lost its sense of "humour" from about 2000 onwards. Both fantasy and 40k - the best way to see this is to look at the nature of the Orks from the early days and how they changed with the introduction of 3rd edition 40k and 6th edition fantasy. They lost their silliness and humour, they went from being soccer hooligans in space effectively to monstrous gorilla like barbarians in space almost overnight with the release of those editions. The humour was lost, and it became more 'serious' and 'gothic' than it was before.
I bought RT at a comic shop in mid '88, and I dont feel much nostalgia to the model quality. Sure, pouring through it brings back memories, but I am not "Pining for the Fjords" so to speak over it.
But then again, I feel absolute antipathy towards 8bit video games compared to the photorealism we have now. You wouldnt catch me dead playing pac-man if my other choice was Ghost of Tsushima for example.
I do miss the tone of the game though. In this you and I are in lock step agreement; and while its good to have serious tones, I always had more fun coming up with ridiculous scenarios why my ork stole that space marine's beer and now this must result in exterminatus.
I still maintain that a liberal use of the term "dollies" at the table weeds out a lot of issues in this sense when reminded of the literal nature of this activity.
I did get to play in the 3rd edition stuff. Honestly, the humor that was put into 40k orks is what really hooked me into not just that army but the game as a whole. I mean, paint the vehicle red, and it went faster. Why? Because the orks thought that’s how it worked, so it did. With every step away from that I lost more interest.
So play some 2nd edition. It's not like the GW Gestapo burned all the 2nd Ed books
Is that thumbnail a gary busey wounded blooboi? Lol!
😄
To me it's like going back and listening to older albums of a band. They are probably objectively worst.
But what you'll find is what was special about that band in the first place.
That is like asking why do you watch/want to watch OG dr Who or Red Dwarf , instead of modern CGI masterpiece like Quantum Mania or "Star Trek" Discovery.
Oh, don't get me started on Nutrek.
Orks and goblins were just comical their sculpts even old golden demon had fun entries that weren't disqualified and even won in the 90s. Now a lot get disqualified for not portraying the direction the company wants to go.
i guess being weird enough to collect these toys is not enough for some people, they have to have a special condition for it aswell, well, im just watching
I played RT and loved the old metal marine sculpts and the modularity of the RTB01 box. I stopped playing during 2nd edition as it was too bright and toy-like for my taste. The plastic mono-pose Mk7 marines were definitely a step backwards in my mind. Sticking plastic arms to metal bodies was another no no for me. They always fell of mid game.
What???? Never played 2 nd edition or 3rd? Next you will tell me you didn't play hero quest, space hulk or space crusade!!! The horror!
2nd edition was a blast. Used to play it on my mates pool table. Soda cans as towers, Lego trees and a few model train trees as well. Good times. I had orcs... 😂
Violence turned up to 11 beside gritty realism is sad and disturbing. Violence turned up to 11 beside cartoony visuals is low stakes fun. You don't have to have played old editions or painted old models to recognize that, or realize that you think low stakes fun sounds like the option you'd prefer.
I understand that the precision of modern models is nicer, but I'd prefer if there was a way to have that and the "characterful" type of stuff GW used to put out just because it was fun to paint weird little dudes.
The only thing that too goofy in 40k is the choas dogs. They claim to the best but they were scared of a physical guy with a sword lol.
Khrone never won a proper fight.
Slapanest is fugly.
Tzeetch is a nerd who fights himself.
Nurgle is the only one that can do something with his plagues and claim souls. Just like everything about Choas is so stupid it makes me not like 40k 😢
Well simple the price the rules and miniatures. Now the miniatures are not a problem since I got most of mine 25-30 years ago. The rules well GW hasn't done a good set of rules for basically as long and their track record of killing off their games is just far to long of a list.
Don't trust them and there are better rules and quite frankly better miniatures to be had for far cheaper. So I will take my few thousands fantasy miniatures and use some other set of rules.
I wasnt born... Sorry.
I wasnt born in the early 1900s yet i love the style of many things from the 1920s and 1930s, but people have different taste.
Old models look like trash and are not worth painting in my eyes
You dont have a condition. The old stuff is cool and good. Dont be deceived by people saying they look bad and that its nostalgia.
My young coworker was listening to pink floyd the other day too.
Tenth is so bad and not fun at all i enjoyed 9th more