Painters used layering, hi lights and washes all the way back to the mid 80s! The difference was, back then, GW didn’t take itself too seriously. It was a fun, relaxed hobby that was still discovering itself. That is the enduring appeal of earlier editions.
@@ChrisKCookI definitely used acrylics and Citadel black ink in 2002, learned washes later. I miss the old paint schemes and still base in Goblin Green and have many 2nd and 3rd edition Tyranids
I started in 82 painting minis in enamel, early Tamiya acrylics and brown ink from the art shop. The first set of fantasy acrylic paint I used came in a starter set of Grenadier minis for D&D.
One thing to recall that was up until 1994, GW was a privately held company, responsible only to the owners, not shareholders in general. So it was after that the corporate mantra ‘profit shareholders above all else’ began creeping in ever heavier.
My experience with 2nd-4th edition 40k was that you could reasonably play fun and/or narrative games at any points value. Now, 10th is clearly designed for 2000 point tournaments. I dislike tournaments, so 10th ed is not for me. Solution - I now have a lot of fun with OPR's rules and my old minis and the old lore.
I played a little bit of 40K during 2nd, though not much...mainly it was due to a few other people having armies and my brother and I having gotten into things with GorkaMorka, so had enough Orks to have about an army there. Most of it was playing with very small forces (500 points was a great thing there and used 3'x3' tables for it...which actually worked for the hobby tables at the game store where the owner only stocked 40k based stuff because he was forced into it to get the fantasy stuff (the other games being played were Fantasy, Mordheim, the WEG Star Wars, and Battletech) and he bitched all the time about how 40K wasn't worth learning because you only got a handfull of models in a box compared to full units in Fantasy. The few people there that did play 40K were the main reason I was gaming there, because they also played GorkaMorka, and I got into it because my uncle bought my brother and I each the starter box for it that year so was asking around about it. But several friends of mine and I still play 3e because the rules are self contained baring a couple armies that popped up during the edition. It also had the Heroes of the Imperium bonus list which is what inspired my own force, especially when the Deathwatch upgrade kit came out. Inquisitor, Assassin, 5 man Tactical Squad of Marines, and then a 5 man of either Devastators or another Tactical due to the Force Org charts for several missions, and the marines were kitted up in Death Watch gear...and then broke off into their own chapter later on due to some things with our own narrative.
You don't remember how when each Codex released in 2nd edition it was so powerful. The Chaos Codex was twice as thick as the earlier codices and it was way too powerful.
@@cyclone8974 Wasn't that back when you had, essentially, 4-5 different armies in that single book. Demons, Chaos Marines, L&D, along with combined and similar thing...
Seems to me, as I remember playing said editions as a teenager, that it was so much more special back then. Still pretty niche, we were made fun of a lot. They were so much less worried about profits back then. Had a wild west feel to it. Infact they were so little concerned about profits, whole games were printed in White Dwarf for you to play. Necromunda and Chaos Warbands, were initially whole games put out over a few editions. You could also incorporate your own kitbashed works of imagination into the game. SO much more creative, if definitely goofy.
I miss the atmosphere and the people most of all. It was such a different vibe. We created stories on the tabletop with works of art back then, rather than using meta lists and speed-painted, 3d printed models in must-win competitions. For most people, our army was our first long term commitment, and it really said something about you and your dedication to the hobby. The hobby has largely become soulless as a result of becoming mainstream. Back in the 80's/90's there was a reverence for the hobby that has largely disappeared, and has been replaced by meta-chasing, fotm armies and toxic, overly-competitive tournaments.
You can still find people that are laid back and have fun with it! I don't know the percentage of players, but I'm definitely one of them and many of my friends are too. Sometimes you got to go looking for them in your local area though. You'll probably have to wade through all the power gamers to find a couple good ones.
Scatter dice is the best thing about the old games. Every time I’m reminded of them it brings back fond memories. Also, guessing ranges before shooting with some weapons was also a good one. Some of these complete random elements which took out the competitiveness. It could also be that the last time I played 40K would have been around 2005 or so and so I’m just being nostalgic.
I agree with you, it is a bit more fun and relaxed when you have more random elements like scatter dice. I also miss scattered ice. Deep striking had some real risk to it, and the more random it is the less people can be competitive like you said. My game brutality is in the same vein, the dice will screw you just as much as your opponent will, it's hard to take it too seriously.
@@LetsTalkTabletop I've recently played Gorkamorka at a convention. The best games I've had. You can be unbelievably lucky or unbelievably unlucky, but the sheer hilarity of it all keeps you going. I've started 40k in 3rd and WFB in 6th, and the scatter dice mechanics meant you had some very interesting tradeoffs with artillery. It is quite silly now where a missed shot just disappears altogether. Guessing ranges isn't actually that difficult when you take into consideration that the table has known dimensions and your deployment zone gives you additional measurements to compare against.
I started in 3rd edition, even bought a couple faction books from 2nd. While those models were being phased out, I still actively bought the ones off the website and their archives and bits (when they used to sell them) to collect the more esoteric models. I do like some of the older special characters, not the colors. However, what I really miss is the kitbashing and customization that has been literally ruled and modeled out of the game. There was even an old 2nd edition white dwarf magazine that had a tutorial on making a deodorant stick grav tank. That is what is missing from modern edition, the soul of the game, the uniqueness and customization. For the record, I started in '99.
My (younger) brother started in 3rd edition, but I stayed away until 9th. (Too busy with kids.) Since 10th came out, I’ve only been playing 3rd edition with my brother and having so much more fun. No stratagems, so the focus on movement is much more important, plus the missions are missions and not random unrelated objectives each turn.
So I'm 64 years old and have played off and on since the first Rogue Trader hardback came out. I still have tons of the minis from the time - most painted, but some still in the pile of shame. Personally I enjoyed 3rd edition most of all.
The biggest regret is that I didn’t take care of my first armies. Late 2nd edition/early 3rd edition space marines and tyranids I either threw out or otherwise misplaced over the years and I’d love to have them to repaint. I miss enjoying 40k and games workshop. Since 7th edition I just haven’t been able to enjoy the game and the company being shareholder oriented really saps the joy from the game. I’ve been able to keep my love for the universes alive by turning to 3D printing epic 40k
I feel the exact same way! It almost feels silly to be nostalgic something I never experienced. I think I’m mostly drawn the the aesthetic and vibe of old. The juxtaposition of the extreme violence and poppy cartoon feel just really makes me tick
Nah, I was there, back in the old age, it legitimately was better. Did it have its flaws, sure, but the game felt like it was less about keeping GW selling its newest bs, and the minis had way more character, without being way over detailed. Almost all my new projects are retro prints, love that 3d printing is keeping old school style minis flowing.
As an old git, that grew up through rogue trader and 2nd edition then left the hobby for twenty years, the new miniatures are undoubtedly technically better they are better made better proportioned, the game is more streamlined less clunky… but your right, where’s the fun gone the old miniatures had a handmade character to them, you could tell who sculpted them.. it felt more ‘human’.
The attitude of the general community and the company has changed a hell of a lot since the RT/2nd ed time. The corporatisation of GW hasn't really brought the benefits many newer players think it has. Most of us OG players aren't really nostalgic for those days because we have carried on with the same attitudes towards it. We still homebrew and scratch build as much as we ever did. A thing to note about that is that the way GW produces kits, sells terrain, gears rules towards comp play, etc is that it makes it much harder for the newer players to get involved with the DIY side of the hobby. The GW of today would never release a book about how to build battlefields out of glue, cardboard and sand. 40k of 30 years ago definitely felt more creative and open. The level of detail they've put into the fluff over that time has pushed it more towards a universe where the fluff is pretty much set with little room for unknown crazy weirdness or spooky mystery. But that's only really because they stopped encouraging players to make up their own stuff. We can all still do all that but we as a community do a terrible job at making that side of the hobby visible to newer players. As players we don't have to be passive consumers. We can do whatever we want with our toy soldiers
I miss the cartoony-ness because it reminds me of the CARTOONS which I also loved as a kid. I am a product of GIJoe, HeMan and Transformers era cartoons. I actually experienced it back then, and my first army was the Rogue Trader box painted up as Blood Angels. For me, I love the old editions because it felt so wholesome and so hand crafted. EVERYTHING today put out by GW feels like a thinly veiled attempt to remove money from my wallet. Where GW used to give you demos of how to build models and terrain with literal garbage, today we have in the book rules that only interact with their high priced scenery. Also the fact that the game is basically written by and for tournaments (despite what they claim).
I am just a madman who doesnt fall for the GW and their crap, it like trying to bully someone you cant touch. 😂 Only bad thing is you need to find people who also like to be free.. it a damn shame since most people like to be shackled to a money extractor.
I got into 40K way back in 1988. I miss those days when GW and its staff didn't take themselves so seriously. The rule books were grim, violent, and raw....reminiscent of their sci-fi influences from that time.
To me it's like going back and listening to older albums of a band. They are probably objectively worst. But what you'll find is what was special about that band in the first place.
The part about the music though, its been scientifically proven that modern popular music does indeed suck since the mid 2000s, (Based on music complexity and the interaction with the human brain) and 90's grunge/metal/rock was some of the best, and most challenging (as defined by interaction with our brains) popular music ever written since the era of classical music of Mozart, Beethoven etc. Some say that if Mozart was alive today that he would have composed hard rock music like the 90s and Tchaikovsky was basically writing heavy metal riffs for Orchestras.
For me its not only music, its architecture, cars, trains, etc. Cars started to get boring in the 90s, music in the early 2000s and architecture already in the 1950s.
@@vintageman91 my FIL was an designer at GM till 2013. From what he has told me, 99% of why every car looks the same these days is because of fuel economy and safety features, In order to get a high rating in both. Unless you do not care about one of those metrics then you get cool looking stuff like the Corvette.
@HeadCannonPrime Yes, i know its mostly because of that. Safety is of course important, but the simpler and more raw engines, the sound, features, the designs and proportions of old cars for example the 1960s is what keeps my interrest going.
I much prefer the modern miniature style, myself. The sculpts are just a lot higher quality, and while I don't mind a bit of fun in minis, like the special guitar noise marine they released, or the new Comrade Red Goblin this Christmas, I much prefer putting paint to the modern models. I started with 5th edition myself, and still have most of my minis from back then though sadly my Land Raider got lost at some point in moving, and while those models still have a special place in my heart I would not want to go out of my way to go out and buy more of them. I even have some old 2nd edition Tactical Marines my dad gave me from his old collection, and I'll occasionally throw them out proxying them as Intercessors in casual games for fun, but the models are just so much less detailed, so difficult to get paint into places like the Aquilla because of how they hold their bolter across their chest. If you like the old models, more power to you. I respect them and respect their place in history for getting the hobby to the point it's at, but I would not want them to ever go back to the old style models.
I haven't painted the new 40k, but I did paint AoS and old WFB models. The AoS ones might have more detail, but they are also tedious to paint compared to the old minis. The amount of detail in Fyreslayer axes borders on silly.
My first interaction with Warhammer 40k came from car boot sales, I literally brought a small box that contained like 5 of each kroot, Tyranids ..current space marines,earlier space marines and misc ..... That's why I have an appreciation of the old stuff
I actually did start in 2nd edition, I was 15 so I remember pretty well. I didn't think so much of the models, I found them very hit or miss. I absolutely love the stuff we have now for 40k. But I can relate to how you feel with early undead models. I've always loved goofy skeletons.
Back in 80's GW was a lot smaller, they'd have only a single big event, you'd go and you could chat to the 'eavy metal guys, the sculptors and John Blanche and co pick up some loot, bargains and end of line stuff and it was a lot more chill. The introduction of plastics marines was initially great price wise but the technology required a move away the hand sculpted charm of the metal miniatures and the rest as they say is history.
I joined in 9th, so I don't really have any nostalgia for old minis, but I still try buy second hand retro minis from 3rd to 4th Edition. Why? They just have a lot of personality and are very easily kitbashable. Honestly, why can't people appreciate vintage stuff without being accused of having nostalgia glasses?
I'm 43 and I didn't play 40k when I was a kid outside of one game of 2nd ed with my cousin. I didn't even like the game but I loved Heroquest, Mutant Chronicles and Dark World. I love the aesthetic of 80s and 90s minis because they remind me of 80s and 90s toys.
I fell in love with 40k in the late 90s and still have many 2nd and 3rd edition models, and continue to paint in bright primary colors. I started with yellow spray paint and black GW ink, not sure when I learned washes but much later. Even thought I love how accessible painting advice is now, and the better paints, I miss that bright, more fun aesthetic. And as a Tyranid player I miss the silly mayhem of a Carnifex rolling an Imperial Guard gunline of Basilisks and tanks. I used to marvel at Epic 40k dioramas including a Squat army, Battlefleet Gothic minis, all those funky bright blue and red space marines, and a bright yellow Ork Stompa all on display at my store. What truly sold me on the hobby was when someone brought a scratch-built Chaos Emperor class Titan he beautifully detailed with 1000 skulls he got from plastic Halloween rings. I'm a better painter and player now, but the grim dark has gotten a bit too serious whereas I always saw it as a parody.
There was an obscure game called Aeronef that used "steam punk" airships in very straight forward gun barrage battles. The official minis were simple but a solid representation of the idea. Many people made custom home made ships and I always loved them even made some myself. Now the minis are more detailed and more weapons and unit types were included in newer rules other companies moved in on the idea with detailed sci-fi type minis and convoluted rule sets that focus more in combined arms maneuvers and how I hate all of them.
I grew up with the vibrant, cartoony miniatures of old back in second edition. Started with Squats, then moved to Chaos when they got squatted, then hung onto Orks as they were stuck with the same awful codex for 4 editions. Having returned in tenth (I was missing from 7th to 9th) my new chaos marine army is almost entirely printed in the old squat, cartoony proportions and painted in the vibrancy of the 90s when I first fell in love with the game.
I got into Warhammer 40k at the tail end of 2nd edition. Nowadays I'm totally nostalgic for the bright vibrant colours and cartoony proportions of 2nd but when 3rd edition launched, I remember thinking how 2nd ed suddenly looked very outdated and ugly. I would even go as far as saying that I grew to dislike the style of 2nd edition due to how better looking 3rd edition was in comparison. It's only been in recent years after taking a ten year break from the hobby (from 2006 to 2016) that I've developed nostalgia for 2nd edition. I adore 2nd ed 40k now because it reminds me of being a kid and falling in love with the hobby all those years ago but there was a period of time for me where not enough time had passed for it to be nostalgic yet.
I really like the cartoony look of the old miniatures! I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "serious miniatures" make the game or serious. The orks back in the day had all sorts of goofy aspects that are way more toned down now. The light hearted older game is more my style, but I get that it's not for everyone!
just started the hobby last year and I had the opportunity to buy a 3d edition Blood angels battleforce with a captain and a furioso dreadnaught at a con earlier this year, but I only picked up the dreadnaught and I'm regretting not getting the whole shebang pretty hard tbh.
You speak to my heart in this video, I completely agree and also look back at 3-5th edition as the potential golden age of GW, even though I never experienced this myself at the time. The GW of then is not the GW of now. GW wasn't as greedy and everything seemed more player friendly, like how they encouraged people to kitbash and make their own terrain. I look at Rick Priestley as the father of GW in terms of the game, he just wanted a good game and left around the time that GW started to prioritize making money at any cost, the game came secondary. It's also before the whole Primaris debacle, whom I still don't love. They feel like imposters to me and will never measure up to their predecessors (my opinion), and it's also the motivation behind the release that irks me.
the new minis are awesome, quality wise. the playing/gaming went nuts, as the scale, be it fantasy/sigmarxism or 40k. As an example: my tournament High Elves army in 6th ed had like 30-40 minis. In 7th or 8th that number went up to 50-60, a few of them far greater than infantry/cavalry models, such as eagles, dragons, etc. And dont forget, early editions eagles were smaller, a lot, may be even half than the newest eagles.
Every so often I come across one of your videos and I can relate so much to the topic it's uncanny. This one is also spot on. Although I did start my Warhammer plunge in 1993 with Fantasy I never had the opportunity to play 40k until 2010 and I "miss" 1st, 2nd, 3rd edition 40k. Thanks for posting!
The old miniatures are history ..they show the progression of the hobby ...they are artworks in and of themselves. The miniatures replicate that which we see in the art from that age and the artwork could be pretty impressive. It's nice to have hyper realistic art of today as well as the different art styles of lets say John blanche .... Those pieces made the universe what it was.... I have Warhammer artwork that was made shortly after I was born, the piece and the models speak for themselves
That's my Ultramarines force in the photo at the start - I'd have appreciated a nod at least, since the watermark is cropped... 2nd ed is glorious fun. And the scatter die, artillery die, and sustained fire die are architects of utter chaos! :D
The watermark was not intentionally cropped out, the photo was just zoomed in so you could see the models better. I honestly thought it was a Games Workshop photo. I didn't even notice your name at the bottom. Sorry about that! I guess it's a compliment that the photo quality and paint job was so good that I thought it came from a white dwarf.
I love the older minis and am glad I have a few. As for rules, I have been having a blast with Xenos Rampant and Space Weirdos. Your upcoming rules sound good too!
Nostalgia a hell of a drug. I was there experiencing Rogue Trader, 2nd, 3rd. Modern GW hark back to that era with new Necromunda but I suspect the Corporate side of things hinders them. I don't remember balance being a big issue, we weren't trying to play the game that way. The most fun we had was ongoing GorkaMorka campaigns and it was incredibly unbalanced.
I feel very similarly about Magic the Gathering. I see how old decks used to play and how some of that old art felt cobbled together and it makes me sad that the game is so corporate now. Even though I didn't start playing until 2020 I wish I had started playing as a child.
Oh man, I completely agree with you about old magic. I started playing in 1997 and a lot of the old cards were still in circulation at that point. A lot of my decks that I have since sold had a lot of ice age and old sets. The artwork was so neat. It had a darker and more menacing fantasy feel I think. 100% agree with you
I have a massive Warriors of Chaos collection for the Old World. I never got to hear of Warhammer before 2003's release of Dawn of War. I think you hit the nail on the head. This technically isn't "my" nostalgia, but I still feel it. Even if my brain is wrong. It's also mixed with a feeling of new things, which can be particularly intoxicating. My childhood was so warhammer-adjacent though, that it's baffling that I never got into it young. I played a lot of video games that were obviously warhammer (or chaos warrior) influenced. Golden Axe, Final Fantasy IV, Warcraft, to name a few. I was always into heavy metal music, and many of those albums have Warhammer adjacent cover art. My mother's boyfriend was a big D&D player and novel reader, and he collected Hero Quest. A game that Games Workshop made, and fit within the Warhammer Fantasy setting. I feel like I'm course correcting an inner child, introducing some young person to a thing that should have been his all along. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some oldhammer projects to start.
Hey that was a neat story! That's so funny how you are so close to Warhammer but just never got into it. I didn't even hear about it until 2009 or so. I don't know why I never came across it either, being that I played dungeons & dragons and magic the gathering and other role-playing games.
@@LetsTalkTabletop I think it's one of those biases where I notice Warhammer and it's influences more now that I know about it. it's pretty wild that we could frequent the same store as Warhammer and just never think of it.
I got involved in 40k at the very tail end of 9th, but mostly was involved in 10th. This video is stating all my exact thoughts on the matter. I never played 2nd, 3rd, etc. yet after research of 40k, AoS, and fantasy, I just felt a great love and nostalgia for something I never had the chance to participate in. Amazing video. Thanks for taking time to speak on this very subject.
It's funny going back and looking in the original Rogue Trader book. 70% of modern 40K is already there (another 20% was added in the 2nd Edition _Codex Imperialis_ ). There's even stuff that doesn't get an airing now: non-Chaos Warp entities, character advancement, custom vehicle rules, engaging terrain hazards ("Member Rubber Moss?"), muskets, etc.
Sorry you're missing out on an awesome experience, old son. I started playing in 1997. I have to say, I miss the 2nd ed game every time I play 40k. Wacky, off the wall actions. Unexpected turns of events, completely dictated by a roll of the dice (3, 4, 6, 8, 10, & even 12!) jam dies, scatter dies, artillery. Guess range and/or random effect weapons. There's a certain sense of victory that accompanies guessing rear armor range to the 1/4 inch, blowing up Demolisher anchoring your opponent's imperial gun line! I was the guard player, btw. And celebrated the spectacular explosion with my friend across the table. Grot rokkits wuz mad, I tellz ya!
While I do enjoy most of the new minis GW puts out, a many of the older minis still look good to me. Well, for Orks anyway. I've actually bought a handful of older Ork minis that I plan on sprinkling into my army when time and motivation permit.
I feel nostalgic for some of the older small model count games like necromunda, mordheim and even warhammer quest. I don’t miss older versions of 40K or warhammer fantasy as they always seemed to have some part of the rules that were just bent. Invisibility psychic power, frenzied khorne lord on a dragon with 10 attacks and strikes first, my whole army shooting a rhino for two turns and nothing but glancing hits…ugh. But some of the old models were fun. Original plastic Tyranids warriors didn’t know what they wanted to be when they grew up. My Eldar still have goblin green bases and flock because that was the style of the time.
The original tyranid warriors are the exception to the rule as far as I'm concerned. If you look at them from the neck down, the models are really not that bad, a little weird but not bad. But those goofy faces on the tyranid warriors are just awful. They ruin the whole model.
still painting my base edges the goblin green man with some flock here and there. Warpstone green gets pretty close if you ever feel the need to scratch that itch.
I understand the nostalgic aspect. I appreciate them for that same reason. But i disagree about the old miniatures being more fun. More goofy, sure. But the realistic, detailed style of nowadays adds to the fun of the game and hobby to me. In-game, it allows me to feel more immersed. The spectacle of a full table is a lot more impactful when it looks like a cinematic shrunken army, instead of a hot wheels collection. Admittedly, i would feel silly playing, almost to the point of embarrassment, if the game still looked like that. On the painting and collecting aspect, i also find the modern look much more fun. Creating the illusion of believable effects like dust or scratches is what made me want to start painting minis in the first place.
I think they should be back with basic colors schemes as an option in their catalog with tutorials and stuff, because its way easier for a starter player to paint that than the stuff they show as "paint like this bro". A very simple green orc, deep blue ultrasmurfs and stuff like that.
My adventure with 40k started around 3rd and 4th edition. A lot of the goofy stuff of the early days was phased out by that point - and I learned to appreciate it over time - these were times of 40k moulding into what we commonly know - and I miss a lot of more RPG-like rules that existed back in the day. 40k of 3rd edition was peak grimdark to me. Ridiculous, dark, setting like a living cover of a death-metal album with some power-metal thrown for good measure. Over time I feel like a lot of this climate that brought me to 40k in the first place dissipated. It became brighter, more sanitised, more corporate... some of the vibes were lost. I especially see it in Primaris marines - they are too tacticool for my taste, not enough of the monastic space knight left. As for the editions... I'm not exactly a huge fan of the wide-army buffs and such we have today. I miss certain rules, like instant death, old force weapons and especially some of the old vehicle rules. I honestly hate how vehicles are done in modern 40k. Especially the "fire all weapons" rule. I can't get the image of Malcador Defender spinning 360 degrees every turn out of my head. The lack of armour facing, damage tables, scatter dice. A lot of the 40k became basically a damage contest. For a brief moment (I think it was 5th or 6th edition?) 40k had proper flanking rules, directional cover, proper line of sight. It had flaws, but instead of getting refined, these rules got dropped for the sake of simplicity - but with said simplicity we lost a lot of depth.
While I prefer the more "realistic" schemes of modern armies, I definitely appreciate the old school look, and fully advocate intergrating retro design ideas into modern mini painting, chainswords should have yellow hazard stripes, if you've got a captain, why not try free-handing some flames on his greaves? have fun with it.
Easily, The pre 90s GW miniatures are classic, Hand sculpted with character, The plastic junk costs five pence a sprue to make and is sold for 'HOW MUCH'. And then of course you have the rules. Well, I meant to say you 'HAD' rules then the 90s happened, and the rules were replaced with your wallet. Rogue trader has a very special page. It was page number 58 ---- The points system. This page gives you a full and complete value of each point with in the characteristics. This means I can create any life form I like from my own imagination and use any miniatures I like because the rules were balanced properly. But now you are left with a game that is balanced entirely on how much money you spend in GW because the in game power level is the actual mechanism that is used to price their products.
I was never aware of page 58! I have looked through PDFs of rogue trader but I don't own the book or anything. I'll have to check that out. I do know that used to have vehicle creation rules.
@@LetsTalkTabletop My childhood was the 80s and GW was the place to be, I stopped Shopping at GW just after White Dwarf lost its letters page, GW got rid of role playing games, They also got rid of all the 3rd party games they were selling and all the 3rd party adverts in White Dwarf. I did not leave GW. GW left me. I loved Rogue Trader and all the books that came with it. Strangely, it was also compatible with Warhammer fantasy RPG by multiplying or dividing each characteristic. (or the stat stays the same, e.g. toughness, wounds) That actually means that I was running 40k RPG from 1987. I will never know how many other people had the same idea at the same time, But they must have done. How many other people feel as I do? May be not that many because of the complexity of the 87 system.
I remember startin 1992 beeing 12 years old. I was out of the Hobby for over a decade. The Game was much easier to play. I wached some games of 40k recently and I think I have to graduate in a Degree to just follow the game… The models back in the 90‘s were not as good, as the models today are, but there was nothing to compare. I was wath we had and it was findishly expansive. The pricelevel ist the same. I still love the old stuff, but painting the newer ist much easier.
I started with 2nd edition and still see it as the best. The scatter dice were quite interesting. You could target the ground with missiles and grenades. So if a target was just out of range you target near it and hope it would scatter to the target, and not back at your guys. GW was a lot better too. You could order individual model components, because the active encouraged customising models and true kit bashing. They would show you how to build and create terrain in White Dwarf. I remember them saying that everyone who worked for GW was part of the hobby, and it showed. I miss those days. I don't play, or buy their stuff anymore, because of their business model and I don't like their newer miniatures.
Ok so I started the same army at same time as you and I do find something nice about those older models. Now there was a store I use to frequent to play magic between 2003 and 2004 prior to my getting into the usaf, and they had a display for the space warhammer thats been discontinued and I even won a tech marine metal kit in a raffle there. But I didn’t play the game. And like you looking back it hits the feels of a game I would have enjoyed had I actually played it then.
RT and 2nd edition were very cool back in the day but 3rd was my favorite by far. I have not played since 5th. I still have the old minis, mostly Orks some beakies. Love them.
I started in 8th and these days mostly collect retro 3E style models as well. I agree with everything you said about the overly serious and realistic modern vibe but I also think one of the main reasons is how EXPENSIVE it is to keep up with the current game. The model prices are outrageous for what you get and your army has a new codex or supplement or chapter approved every other week. It was liberating to quit all of that and know that all the 3E or 8E books I already have are the definitive rules I need and the models I already own won't be removed from those books!
because some of us were around for older editions of warhammer fantasy and warhammer 40k. Some of us miss that people were encouraged to make and play their own models. Now its just corporatism and following a meta. Then yall cry about how its corporatism and following a meta.
Old Warhammer makes me thing of Punk and Thrash album covers, Poppy Cartoon ULTRA-VIOLENCE! Seriously tho old warhammer was if anything more serious for me because of that Aesthetic, it forced you to suspend your disbelief to engage with it wholly, the way I imagined 4th ed battles in my head was far more "grimdark" than what the new clean tacticool aesthetic evokes. I'm getting rid of all my primaris and bringing my space marines back and it's already reinvigorating my imagination so I don't think its just nostalgia. As for the old rules, give em a try, I play games that still use similar rules and I personally have much more fun with them, the game truly isn't over until its over. Battles should play out like battles not a board game.
I played 2nd Ed in the early 90s. Can't say I'm nostalgic for it - I prefer the more realistic style. I think people get nostalgic for things they didn't experience precisely because they didn't experience them.
Well I kinda have it with historical wargames when I look at how people played in the olden days- gloss coats, untextured bases, ranks of identical toy soldiers. But like in Warhammer I would not like to play those older rulesets- too detailed for not many good resons. I think two factors are at play here- first I think we look at those and we feel "Look how little people needed to have fun, back then". Now with the increese in average painter skillsets, and avaiable hobby products we feel obliged to make the best minis we can, and those older figures give a sese of chill and easy going. Second I feel that wargaming- GW or historical had a different etiquete back then- it encouraged more crafting to make your own terrain, houserules, scenarios. Now people expect ready to go products, updates, expansions etc, so for me, gaming in the 80's, 90's gives a sense of "do it yourself", "make the game your own" feel, and I wished we had more people like that now. Like one of my best experiences was designing a scenario based on a historical skirmish that was only hinted on in the sources, so there were no ready scenarios from any other system. We needed to find the map of the area from 1815, cut out a 4x4km playing area ot of it. Determine what features will need to go onto the board- villages, hamlets, woods, copses etc. We needed to find the order of battle, the corect uniform colors fot our units from that order. And that was such a blast just designing that.
I relate it to Halo. Both are fun now but it's tiered towards competitive. That attracts a certain sweaty type of player and whilst I do like competition, it's a pass time, I want to chill and not overthink it. I miss the simple fun of it.
I absolutely feel this sentiment hard. The silliness of old warhammer art is what got me interested in the game. They need, desperately to embrace more silliness. The fan base needs to embrace the silliness. 40k, fantasy and AOS are all heavy metal over the top goofy goodness if we just let them be that way. There are power armor brainwashed maniacs riding space bikes waving chainsaws at drunk space orcs shooting lightning out of garbage robots. This shit is silly! And silly is good! Embrace the goofy! Grim Dark is supposed to be tongue in cheek. Grim dark is supposed to be so sneering and mean spirited that it's funny! Bring that back. Playing with little fantasy angry guys on a table is inherently silly and fun.
I feel that it's selection bias. The folks that weren't there didn't experience as many of the lows as the people that were, but the best parts of those days get center stage and the worst brushed aside, especially when it's something we want to share and enjoy with our friends and loved ones. Your music analogy, for example, every decade had bad music in it, absolute stinkers even. But those aren't the tracks that got polished up and placed in "Greatest Hits" or even "Hidden Gems" collections. They were forgotten.
Yeah, what you're saying is probably true. That probably goes for anything we look retroactively at. I guess that's why everybody is so reminiscent about their childhood. They gloss over all the bad stuff.
I had the 2nd edition starter set and started collecting before then. We had washes and stuff, but the paints were low quality and it was appealing to a younger demographic. The models these days are much nicer, just looking at my favorite game, Space Hulk. I grew up playing 2nd edition, but I’ll take the quality of 3rd edition any day. I think painting techniques have just evolved since we were all tweens and teens in the 90s. I assure you, miniatures were all far too expensive back then as well.
The best cure for the rampant 2nd ed nostalgia is attempting to play 2nd edition, and realizing nobody even tried to do any math whatsoever to make anything anywhere in the realm of reasonable. Space marines in power armor feel like theyre running into battle in their tighty-whities because a Lasgun is rocking a -1 saving throw modifier, and Terminators conversely with their 3+sv on 2d6 feel like unkillable gods. Oh you wanted to try a fluffy game where you have some Harlequins vs your buddys Demons, the classic grudge match? Welp problem is 1 bloodletter can fight 5x his points value in clowns no sweat, but...wait, the 3 skimmers the harlequin player brought are INVULNERABLE to the entire Daemon army? Can that be right? Yep, thats right, have fun flying around in your vypers for 4 turns shooting out, never engaging anything in combat because thats an instant death sentence even if you whittled your target down to 1 model.
@LetsTalkTabletop I've never played against guard in 2e, but I do know that they are one of the armies that generally seems to be plating the same game as other armies. The "Then The Game Designers Put Their Pants On Their Heads" armies are Eldar, Daemons, and Tyranids.
Yes, the old characters had more soul. Less art design, but more soul. The old WFB rules were... clunky. But sometimes I would like to take them out again. 😊
I am in the same boat. In my 30's. Never played Warhammer. Within 6 months I have collected a massive collection of vibrant colored, Eavy Metal style painted Rogue Trader, 2nd, 3rd edition and Epic 40k collection. I even have the first White Dwarf magazine that features a preview of Rogue Trader. I also got the injured space marine minifig in your thumbnail but he's painted Crimson Fist style. I love old kitbashes and have a kitbash of the deodorant grav tank. The original Land Raider and Chaos Dreadnought are some of my favorite designs in my collection. I'm in the minority when I say I actually hate the modern realistic proportions on minifigs and prefer the stylized proportions of the older editions. When I learned about the difference between modern and oldschool Games Workshop I was so turned off by the modern stuff that I boycott them fully. Modern 40k tabletop is horrendous because GW has become far too selfish and greedy. I've seen where people who don't use official plastic bases and 3rd party ones being not allowed to play certain tournaments. I would never ever want to participate in a try-hard tabletop tournament that takes itself too seriously or give a company money that doesn't allow people to play with old models in their stores. So instead of GW getting thousands of dollars from me, 3rd party sellers on ebay and other stores get it instead. If you can't afford old Rogue Trader models then I am all for buying plastic recasts or 3d printing because screw GW and their disgusting policies.
I loved 3rd Edition the most. I played the crap out of it. I also played 4th Edition a huge amount. I left the hobby when 5th Edition came out. I now play BLKOUT and love it. I do kinda like the new Kill Team and Necromunda.
GW peak for me was 3rd edition 40k and 6th edition fantasy. The late 90s till 2005 ish. The period when Mordheim and Battlefleet Gothic were released as well. Just perfection in terms of miniatures design. I personally prefer miniatures with character over realistic ones, and that is why I am not so fond of current GW minis.
It's not rose coloured glasses - Warhammer lost its sense of "humour" from about 2000 onwards. Both fantasy and 40k - the best way to see this is to look at the nature of the Orks from the early days and how they changed with the introduction of 3rd edition 40k and 6th edition fantasy. They lost their silliness and humour, they went from being soccer hooligans in space effectively to monstrous gorilla like barbarians in space almost overnight with the release of those editions. The humour was lost, and it became more 'serious' and 'gothic' than it was before.
I did get to play in the 3rd edition stuff. Honestly, the humor that was put into 40k orks is what really hooked me into not just that army but the game as a whole. I mean, paint the vehicle red, and it went faster. Why? Because the orks thought that’s how it worked, so it did. With every step away from that I lost more interest.
i guess being weird enough to collect these toys is not enough for some people, they have to have a special condition for it aswell, well, im just watching
I started in very early 3rd and played 2e with a number of friends. I miss the old fluff and old style of warhammer. It had a lot more personality and was much less... well... it was less shit.
I can't say I miss it since I wasn't around for it and have yet to play a tabletop game. As for the models, while a lot of them feel a tad too ugly or goofy for me, on occasion I'll find one that's ugly and goofy in a way that I like and I'll scour eBay for it.
That is like asking why do you watch/want to watch OG dr Who or Red Dwarf , instead of modern CGI masterpiece like Quantum Mania or "Star Trek" Discovery.
Orks and goblins were just comical their sculpts even old golden demon had fun entries that weren't disqualified and even won in the 90s. Now a lot get disqualified for not portraying the direction the company wants to go.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Painters used layering, hi lights and washes all the way back to the mid 80s! The difference was, back then, GW didn’t take itself too seriously. It was a fun, relaxed hobby that was still discovering itself. That is the enduring appeal of earlier editions.
Also at least as far back as 2nd Edition People used Acrylic rather enamels...
@@ChrisKCookI definitely used acrylics and Citadel black ink in 2002, learned washes later. I miss the old paint schemes and still base in Goblin Green and have many 2nd and 3rd edition Tyranids
@KayleyWhalen i started in 1994 and i only usd Citidel Acrylics...
I started in 82 painting minis in enamel, early Tamiya acrylics and brown ink from the art shop. The first set of fantasy acrylic paint I used came in a starter set of Grenadier minis for D&D.
@Perchpole so before Warhammer?
Cartoony miniatures really do it for me. But I am strange like that. I also love the randomness of the old rules.
One thing to recall that was up until 1994, GW was a privately held company, responsible only to the owners, not shareholders in general. So it was after that the corporate mantra ‘profit shareholders above all else’ began creeping in ever heavier.
correct. no one should be giving them any money, 40k would be better without GW.
I don't miss 2e at all... I'm still playing, painting and collecting it almost 30 years on :)
My experience with 2nd-4th edition 40k was that you could reasonably play fun and/or narrative games at any points value. Now, 10th is clearly designed for 2000 point tournaments. I dislike tournaments, so 10th ed is not for me. Solution - I now have a lot of fun with OPR's rules and my old minis and the old lore.
I still prefer "oldhammer" to OPR because of the goofy rules. OPR is fun though.
I played a little bit of 40K during 2nd, though not much...mainly it was due to a few other people having armies and my brother and I having gotten into things with GorkaMorka, so had enough Orks to have about an army there. Most of it was playing with very small forces (500 points was a great thing there and used 3'x3' tables for it...which actually worked for the hobby tables at the game store where the owner only stocked 40k based stuff because he was forced into it to get the fantasy stuff (the other games being played were Fantasy, Mordheim, the WEG Star Wars, and Battletech) and he bitched all the time about how 40K wasn't worth learning because you only got a handfull of models in a box compared to full units in Fantasy.
The few people there that did play 40K were the main reason I was gaming there, because they also played GorkaMorka, and I got into it because my uncle bought my brother and I each the starter box for it that year so was asking around about it.
But several friends of mine and I still play 3e because the rules are self contained baring a couple armies that popped up during the edition.
It also had the Heroes of the Imperium bonus list which is what inspired my own force, especially when the Deathwatch upgrade kit came out.
Inquisitor, Assassin, 5 man Tactical Squad of Marines, and then a 5 man of either Devastators or another Tactical due to the Force Org charts for several missions, and the marines were kitted up in Death Watch gear...and then broke off into their own chapter later on due to some things with our own narrative.
10th is definitely designed for Little Timmy and the WAAC Powergamer Dudebros
You don't remember how when each Codex released in 2nd edition it was so powerful. The Chaos Codex was twice as thick as the earlier codices and it was way too powerful.
@@cyclone8974 Wasn't that back when you had, essentially, 4-5 different armies in that single book. Demons, Chaos Marines, L&D, along with combined and similar thing...
Seems to me, as I remember playing said editions as a teenager, that it was so much more special back then. Still pretty niche, we were made fun of a lot. They were so much less worried about profits back then. Had a wild west feel to it. Infact they were so little concerned about profits, whole games were printed in White Dwarf for you to play. Necromunda and Chaos Warbands, were initially whole games put out over a few editions. You could also incorporate your own kitbashed works of imagination into the game. SO much more creative, if definitely goofy.
I miss the atmosphere and the people most of all. It was such a different vibe. We created stories on the tabletop with works of art back then, rather than using meta lists and speed-painted, 3d printed models in must-win competitions. For most people, our army was our first long term commitment, and it really said something about you and your dedication to the hobby.
The hobby has largely become soulless as a result of becoming mainstream. Back in the 80's/90's there was a reverence for the hobby that has largely disappeared, and has been replaced by meta-chasing, fotm armies and toxic, overly-competitive tournaments.
You can still find people that are laid back and have fun with it! I don't know the percentage of players, but I'm definitely one of them and many of my friends are too. Sometimes you got to go looking for them in your local area though. You'll probably have to wade through all the power gamers to find a couple good ones.
Scatter dice is the best thing about the old games. Every time I’m reminded of them it brings back fond memories. Also, guessing ranges before shooting with some weapons was also a good one. Some of these complete random elements which took out the competitiveness.
It could also be that the last time I played 40K would have been around 2005 or so and so I’m just being nostalgic.
I agree with you, it is a bit more fun and relaxed when you have more random elements like scatter dice. I also miss scattered ice. Deep striking had some real risk to it, and the more random it is the less people can be competitive like you said. My game brutality is in the same vein, the dice will screw you just as much as your opponent will, it's hard to take it too seriously.
@@LetsTalkTabletop I've recently played Gorkamorka at a convention. The best games I've had. You can be unbelievably lucky or unbelievably unlucky, but the sheer hilarity of it all keeps you going.
I've started 40k in 3rd and WFB in 6th, and the scatter dice mechanics meant you had some very interesting tradeoffs with artillery. It is quite silly now where a missed shot just disappears altogether. Guessing ranges isn't actually that difficult when you take into consideration that the table has known dimensions and your deployment zone gives you additional measurements to compare against.
I started in 3rd edition, even bought a couple faction books from 2nd. While those models were being phased out, I still actively bought the ones off the website and their archives and bits (when they used to sell them) to collect the more esoteric models. I do like some of the older special characters, not the colors. However, what I really miss is the kitbashing and customization that has been literally ruled and modeled out of the game. There was even an old 2nd edition white dwarf magazine that had a tutorial on making a deodorant stick grav tank. That is what is missing from modern edition, the soul of the game, the uniqueness and customization. For the record, I started in '99.
My (younger) brother started in 3rd edition, but I stayed away until 9th. (Too busy with kids.) Since 10th came out, I’ve only been playing 3rd edition with my brother and having so much more fun.
No stratagems, so the focus on movement is much more important, plus the missions are missions and not random unrelated objectives each turn.
It is easy to recognize something better. Anemoia is just that.
So I'm 64 years old and have played off and on since the first Rogue Trader hardback came out. I still have tons of the minis from the time - most painted, but some still in the pile of shame. Personally I enjoyed 3rd edition most of all.
The biggest regret is that I didn’t take care of my first armies. Late 2nd edition/early 3rd edition space marines and tyranids I either threw out or otherwise misplaced over the years and I’d love to have them to repaint.
I miss enjoying 40k and games workshop. Since 7th edition I just haven’t been able to enjoy the game and the company being shareholder oriented really saps the joy from the game. I’ve been able to keep my love for the universes alive by turning to 3D printing epic 40k
Reason why i like my old marines there so silly and i like making them vibrant hell i tracked down a goblin green from the 90s for my bases
2nd Edition Noise Marines are still some of the best ever made imo
it wasnt about the looks back then, its was about feeling and sharing time with likeminded people
Literally Warhammer/GW still feels like that but I’m just saying that cuz I got into it in 2014 and have my own biases
I think that early games workshop was more about nerds making a game for nerds.
I feel the exact same way! It almost feels silly to be nostalgic something I never experienced.
I think I’m mostly drawn the the aesthetic and vibe of old. The juxtaposition of the extreme violence and poppy cartoon feel just really makes me tick
Same here, I was born in the early 90s but there are many cool things from way before i was born.
Nah, I was there, back in the old age, it legitimately was better. Did it have its flaws, sure, but the game felt like it was less about keeping GW selling its newest bs, and the minis had way more character, without being way over detailed. Almost all my new projects are retro prints, love that 3d printing is keeping old school style minis flowing.
Scatter dice and templates were the absolute best thing in 40k!
As an old git, that grew up through rogue trader and 2nd edition then left the hobby for twenty years, the new miniatures are undoubtedly technically better they are better made better proportioned, the game is more streamlined less clunky… but your right, where’s the fun gone the old miniatures had a handmade character to them, you could tell who sculpted them.. it felt more ‘human’.
The attitude of the general community and the company has changed a hell of a lot since the RT/2nd ed time. The corporatisation of GW hasn't really brought the benefits many newer players think it has.
Most of us OG players aren't really nostalgic for those days because we have carried on with the same attitudes towards it. We still homebrew and scratch build as much as we ever did. A thing to note about that is that the way GW produces kits, sells terrain, gears rules towards comp play, etc is that it makes it much harder for the newer players to get involved with the DIY side of the hobby. The GW of today would never release a book about how to build battlefields out of glue, cardboard and sand.
40k of 30 years ago definitely felt more creative and open. The level of detail they've put into the fluff over that time has pushed it more towards a universe where the fluff is pretty much set with little room for unknown crazy weirdness or spooky mystery. But that's only really because they stopped encouraging players to make up their own stuff. We can all still do all that but we as a community do a terrible job at making that side of the hobby visible to newer players.
As players we don't have to be passive consumers. We can do whatever we want with our toy soldiers
I miss the cartoony-ness because it reminds me of the CARTOONS which I also loved as a kid. I am a product of GIJoe, HeMan and Transformers era cartoons. I actually experienced it back then, and my first army was the Rogue Trader box painted up as Blood Angels. For me, I love the old editions because it felt so wholesome and so hand crafted. EVERYTHING today put out by GW feels like a thinly veiled attempt to remove money from my wallet. Where GW used to give you demos of how to build models and terrain with literal garbage, today we have in the book rules that only interact with their high priced scenery. Also the fact that the game is basically written by and for tournaments (despite what they claim).
I am just a madman who doesnt fall for the GW and their crap, it like trying to bully someone you cant touch. 😂
Only bad thing is you need to find people who also like to be free.. it a damn shame since most people like to be shackled to a money extractor.
You can thank Mike McVey for the paint jobs on those miniatures.
I got into 40K way back in 1988. I miss those days when GW and its staff didn't take themselves so seriously. The rule books were grim, violent, and raw....reminiscent of their sci-fi influences from that time.
My sisters codex has a bit where they're being boiled alive by plauge spewers and rotting to pieces I dunno what books you're reading
To me it's like going back and listening to older albums of a band. They are probably objectively worst.
But what you'll find is what was special about that band in the first place.
Well said!
The part about the music though, its been scientifically proven that modern popular music does indeed suck since the mid 2000s, (Based on music complexity and the interaction with the human brain) and 90's grunge/metal/rock was some of the best, and most challenging (as defined by interaction with our brains) popular music ever written since the era of classical music of Mozart, Beethoven etc. Some say that if Mozart was alive today that he would have composed hard rock music like the 90s and Tchaikovsky was basically writing heavy metal riffs for Orchestras.
All modern music is written by 2 jewish guys. Make of that what you will.
For me its not only music, its architecture, cars, trains, etc.
Cars started to get boring in the 90s, music in the early 2000s and architecture already in the 1950s.
@@vintageman91 my FIL was an designer at GM till 2013. From what he has told me, 99% of why every car looks the same these days is because of fuel economy and safety features, In order to get a high rating in both. Unless you do not care about one of those metrics then you get cool looking stuff like the Corvette.
@@mitchf.4450 That is demonstrably false.
@HeadCannonPrime Yes, i know its mostly because of that.
Safety is of course important, but the simpler and more raw engines, the sound, features, the designs and proportions of old cars for example the 1960s is what keeps my interrest going.
I much prefer the modern miniature style, myself. The sculpts are just a lot higher quality, and while I don't mind a bit of fun in minis, like the special guitar noise marine they released, or the new Comrade Red Goblin this Christmas, I much prefer putting paint to the modern models. I started with 5th edition myself, and still have most of my minis from back then though sadly my Land Raider got lost at some point in moving, and while those models still have a special place in my heart I would not want to go out of my way to go out and buy more of them. I even have some old 2nd edition Tactical Marines my dad gave me from his old collection, and I'll occasionally throw them out proxying them as Intercessors in casual games for fun, but the models are just so much less detailed, so difficult to get paint into places like the Aquilla because of how they hold their bolter across their chest.
If you like the old models, more power to you. I respect them and respect their place in history for getting the hobby to the point it's at, but I would not want them to ever go back to the old style models.
I haven't painted the new 40k, but I did paint AoS and old WFB models. The AoS ones might have more detail, but they are also tedious to paint compared to the old minis. The amount of detail in Fyreslayer axes borders on silly.
My first interaction with Warhammer 40k came from car boot sales, I literally brought a small box that contained like 5 of each kroot, Tyranids ..current space marines,earlier space marines and misc ..... That's why I have an appreciation of the old stuff
I feel this way for many current games too. Ones I know I’ll never get to play, whether for budget reasons or time.
I feel about that for World of Warcraft.
I swear if i get some money I want to make a Arthas the Lich King model.
Why if you get some money? Green stuff is cheap so are spare bits. You can do it man.
Love the old art style
I actually did start in 2nd edition, I was 15 so I remember pretty well. I didn't think so much of the models, I found them very hit or miss. I absolutely love the stuff we have now for 40k. But I can relate to how you feel with early undead models. I've always loved goofy skeletons.
Back in 80's GW was a lot smaller, they'd have only a single big event, you'd go and you could chat to the 'eavy metal guys, the sculptors and John Blanche and co pick up some loot, bargains and end of line stuff and it was a lot more chill. The introduction of plastics marines was initially great price wise but the technology required a move away the hand sculpted charm of the metal miniatures and the rest as they say is history.
That thumbnail....
"Mission Start!! *Chk-kang!* Brother Marco!"
I joined in 9th, so I don't really have any nostalgia for old minis, but I still try buy second hand retro minis from 3rd to 4th Edition. Why? They just have a lot of personality and are very easily kitbashable.
Honestly, why can't people appreciate vintage stuff without being accused of having nostalgia glasses?
I'm 43 and I didn't play 40k when I was a kid outside of one game of 2nd ed with my cousin. I didn't even like the game but I loved Heroquest, Mutant Chronicles and Dark World. I love the aesthetic of 80s and 90s minis because they remind me of 80s and 90s toys.
I fell in love with 40k in the late 90s and still have many 2nd and 3rd edition models, and continue to paint in bright primary colors. I started with yellow spray paint and black GW ink, not sure when I learned washes but much later. Even thought I love how accessible painting advice is now, and the better paints, I miss that bright, more fun aesthetic. And as a Tyranid player I miss the silly mayhem of a Carnifex rolling an Imperial Guard gunline of Basilisks and tanks. I used to marvel at Epic 40k dioramas including a Squat army, Battlefleet Gothic minis, all those funky bright blue and red space marines, and a bright yellow Ork Stompa all on display at my store. What truly sold me on the hobby was when someone brought a scratch-built Chaos Emperor class Titan he beautifully detailed with 1000 skulls he got from plastic Halloween rings. I'm a better painter and player now, but the grim dark has gotten a bit too serious whereas I always saw it as a parody.
There was an obscure game called Aeronef that used "steam punk" airships in very straight forward gun barrage battles. The official minis were simple but a solid representation of the idea. Many people made custom home made ships and I always loved them even made some myself. Now the minis are more detailed and more weapons and unit types were included in newer rules other companies moved in on the idea with detailed sci-fi type minis and convoluted rule sets that focus more in combined arms maneuvers and how I hate all of them.
I'll have to check that out! Never heard of it.
I grew up with the vibrant, cartoony miniatures of old back in second edition.
Started with Squats, then moved to Chaos when they got squatted, then hung onto Orks as they were stuck with the same awful codex for 4 editions.
Having returned in tenth (I was missing from 7th to 9th) my new chaos marine army is almost entirely printed in the old squat, cartoony proportions and painted in the vibrancy of the 90s when I first fell in love with the game.
I got into Warhammer 40k at the tail end of 2nd edition.
Nowadays I'm totally nostalgic for the bright vibrant colours and cartoony proportions of 2nd but when 3rd edition launched, I remember thinking how 2nd ed suddenly looked very outdated and ugly. I would even go as far as saying that I grew to dislike the style of 2nd edition due to how better looking 3rd edition was in comparison.
It's only been in recent years after taking a ten year break from the hobby (from 2006 to 2016) that I've developed nostalgia for 2nd edition. I adore 2nd ed 40k now because it reminds me of being a kid and falling in love with the hobby all those years ago but there was a period of time for me where not enough time had passed for it to be nostalgic yet.
I actually really love the old rogue trader minis (enough to start collecting and painting them) and I’ve never even played 40k!
I don't miss it, I just open my figure cases and there it is...
I really like the cartoony look of the old miniatures! I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "serious miniatures" make the game or serious. The orks back in the day had all sorts of goofy aspects that are way more toned down now. The light hearted older game is more my style, but I get that it's not for everyone!
just started the hobby last year and I had the opportunity to buy a 3d edition Blood angels battleforce with a captain and a furioso dreadnaught at a con earlier this year, but I only picked up the dreadnaught and I'm regretting not getting the whole shebang pretty hard tbh.
You speak to my heart in this video, I completely agree and also look back at 3-5th edition as the potential golden age of GW, even though I never experienced this myself at the time. The GW of then is not the GW of now. GW wasn't as greedy and everything seemed more player friendly, like how they encouraged people to kitbash and make their own terrain. I look at Rick Priestley as the father of GW in terms of the game, he just wanted a good game and left around the time that GW started to prioritize making money at any cost, the game came secondary. It's also before the whole Primaris debacle, whom I still don't love. They feel like imposters to me and will never measure up to their predecessors (my opinion), and it's also the motivation behind the release that irks me.
how could you not love this weird chap from the thumbnail ? I bet it's the first Cato Sicarius model
I do love that miniature! It's so weird and goofy. Has a lot of character.
the frist cato sicarius model was "a generic captain" with double lightning claws.
I dont judge anyone for liking the old stuff but I see old 40K as a thankfully gone past. The new editions and models seem so much better to me
The hobby was most definitely at its infancy. I think people tend to confuse missing the attitude of old GW with missing the aesthetics
the new minis are awesome, quality wise.
the playing/gaming went nuts, as the scale, be it fantasy/sigmarxism or 40k.
As an example: my tournament High Elves army in 6th ed had like 30-40 minis. In 7th or 8th that number went up to 50-60, a few of them far greater than infantry/cavalry models, such as eagles, dragons, etc.
And dont forget, early editions eagles were smaller, a lot, may be even half than the newest eagles.
Every so often I come across one of your videos and I can relate so much to the topic it's uncanny. This one is also spot on. Although I did start my Warhammer plunge in 1993 with Fantasy I never had the opportunity to play 40k until 2010 and I "miss" 1st, 2nd, 3rd edition 40k. Thanks for posting!
Thanks for saying that!
The old miniatures are history ..they show the progression of the hobby ...they are artworks in and of themselves.
The miniatures replicate that which we see in the art from that age and the artwork could be pretty impressive.
It's nice to have hyper realistic art of today as well as the different art styles of lets say John blanche .... Those pieces made the universe what it was.... I have Warhammer artwork that was made shortly after I was born, the piece and the models speak for themselves
Old music, late 90s early 2000s, starts hyperventalating noo noo we arent old noooo
😄
That's my Ultramarines force in the photo at the start - I'd have appreciated a nod at least, since the watermark is cropped...
2nd ed is glorious fun. And the scatter die, artillery die, and sustained fire die are architects of utter chaos! :D
The watermark was not intentionally cropped out, the photo was just zoomed in so you could see the models better. I honestly thought it was a Games Workshop photo. I didn't even notice your name at the bottom. Sorry about that! I guess it's a compliment that the photo quality and paint job was so good that I thought it came from a white dwarf.
@@LetsTalkTabletop No worries, I didn't think it was anything malicious!
I love the older minis and am glad I have a few. As for rules, I have been having a blast with Xenos Rampant and Space Weirdos. Your upcoming rules sound good too!
Nostalgia a hell of a drug. I was there experiencing Rogue Trader, 2nd, 3rd. Modern GW hark back to that era with new Necromunda but I suspect the Corporate side of things hinders them. I don't remember balance being a big issue, we weren't trying to play the game that way. The most fun we had was ongoing GorkaMorka campaigns and it was incredibly unbalanced.
I feel very similarly about Magic the Gathering. I see how old decks used to play and how some of that old art felt cobbled together and it makes me sad that the game is so corporate now. Even though I didn't start playing until 2020 I wish I had started playing as a child.
Oh man, I completely agree with you about old magic. I started playing in 1997 and a lot of the old cards were still in circulation at that point. A lot of my decks that I have since sold had a lot of ice age and old sets. The artwork was so neat. It had a darker and more menacing fantasy feel I think. 100% agree with you
I have a massive Warriors of Chaos collection for the Old World. I never got to hear of Warhammer before 2003's release of Dawn of War. I think you hit the nail on the head. This technically isn't "my" nostalgia, but I still feel it. Even if my brain is wrong. It's also mixed with a feeling of new things, which can be particularly intoxicating.
My childhood was so warhammer-adjacent though, that it's baffling that I never got into it young. I played a lot of video games that were obviously warhammer (or chaos warrior) influenced. Golden Axe, Final Fantasy IV, Warcraft, to name a few. I was always into heavy metal music, and many of those albums have Warhammer adjacent cover art. My mother's boyfriend was a big D&D player and novel reader, and he collected Hero Quest. A game that Games Workshop made, and fit within the Warhammer Fantasy setting. I feel like I'm course correcting an inner child, introducing some young person to a thing that should have been his all along.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have some oldhammer projects to start.
Hey that was a neat story! That's so funny how you are so close to Warhammer but just never got into it. I didn't even hear about it until 2009 or so. I don't know why I never came across it either, being that I played dungeons & dragons and magic the gathering and other role-playing games.
@@LetsTalkTabletop I think it's one of those biases where I notice Warhammer and it's influences more now that I know about it. it's pretty wild that we could frequent the same store as Warhammer and just never think of it.
I got involved in 40k at the very tail end of 9th, but mostly was involved in 10th.
This video is stating all my exact thoughts on the matter. I never played 2nd, 3rd, etc. yet after research of 40k, AoS, and fantasy, I just felt a great love and nostalgia for something I never had the chance to participate in.
Amazing video. Thanks for taking time to speak on this very subject.
Glad to hear I'm not the only one who feels this way!
It's funny going back and looking in the original Rogue Trader book. 70% of modern 40K is already there (another 20% was added in the 2nd Edition _Codex Imperialis_ ). There's even stuff that doesn't get an airing now: non-Chaos Warp entities, character advancement, custom vehicle rules, engaging terrain hazards ("Member Rubber Moss?"), muskets, etc.
@@harbl99 I feel like it got pointlessly complex, yet somehow lost true depth of play.
2-4 was a fun time. Orks with crazy mevhcanics still where it goes off great or when it doesn't, boom
Sorry you're missing out on an awesome experience, old son. I started playing in 1997. I have to say, I miss the 2nd ed game every time I play 40k. Wacky, off the wall actions. Unexpected turns of events, completely dictated by a roll of the dice (3, 4, 6, 8, 10, & even 12!) jam dies, scatter dies, artillery. Guess range and/or random effect weapons. There's a certain sense of victory that accompanies guessing rear armor range to the 1/4 inch, blowing up Demolisher anchoring your opponent's imperial gun line! I was the guard player, btw. And celebrated the spectacular explosion with my friend across the table. Grot rokkits wuz mad, I tellz ya!
how i miss trying to guess the distance with the canons in fantasy or the artillery in 40k!
It took skill. Not just point and pray!
While I do enjoy most of the new minis GW puts out, a many of the older minis still look good to me. Well, for Orks anyway. I've actually bought a handful of older Ork minis that I plan on sprinkling into my army when time and motivation permit.
I feel nostalgic for some of the older small model count games like necromunda, mordheim and even warhammer quest. I don’t miss older versions of 40K or warhammer fantasy as they always seemed to have some part of the rules that were just bent. Invisibility psychic power, frenzied khorne lord on a dragon with 10 attacks and strikes first, my whole army shooting a rhino for two turns and nothing but glancing hits…ugh. But some of the old models were fun. Original plastic Tyranids warriors didn’t know what they wanted to be when they grew up. My Eldar still have goblin green bases and flock because that was the style of the time.
The original tyranid warriors are the exception to the rule as far as I'm concerned. If you look at them from the neck down, the models are really not that bad, a little weird but not bad. But those goofy faces on the tyranid warriors are just awful. They ruin the whole model.
still painting my base edges the goblin green man with some flock here and there. Warpstone green gets pretty close if you ever feel the need to scratch that itch.
Actually, I believe moot green is the new goblin green
What's flock?
Flock is the green static grass that people glue to their bases.
I understand the nostalgic aspect. I appreciate them for that same reason. But i disagree about the old miniatures being more fun. More goofy, sure. But the realistic, detailed style of nowadays adds to the fun of the game and hobby to me.
In-game, it allows me to feel more immersed. The spectacle of a full table is a lot more impactful when it looks like a cinematic shrunken army, instead of a hot wheels collection. Admittedly, i would feel silly playing, almost to the point of embarrassment, if the game still looked like that.
On the painting and collecting aspect, i also find the modern look much more fun. Creating the illusion of believable effects like dust or scratches is what made me want to start painting minis in the first place.
I think they should be back with basic colors schemes as an option in their catalog with tutorials and stuff, because its way easier for a starter player to paint that than the stuff they show as "paint like this bro".
A very simple green orc, deep blue ultrasmurfs and stuff like that.
My adventure with 40k started around 3rd and 4th edition.
A lot of the goofy stuff of the early days was phased out by that point - and I learned to appreciate it over time - these were times of 40k moulding into what we commonly know - and I miss a lot of more RPG-like rules that existed back in the day.
40k of 3rd edition was peak grimdark to me. Ridiculous, dark, setting like a living cover of a death-metal album with some power-metal thrown for good measure.
Over time I feel like a lot of this climate that brought me to 40k in the first place dissipated. It became brighter, more sanitised, more corporate... some of the vibes were lost. I especially see it in Primaris marines - they are too tacticool for my taste, not enough of the monastic space knight left.
As for the editions... I'm not exactly a huge fan of the wide-army buffs and such we have today. I miss certain rules, like instant death, old force weapons and especially some of the old vehicle rules.
I honestly hate how vehicles are done in modern 40k. Especially the "fire all weapons" rule. I can't get the image of Malcador Defender spinning 360 degrees every turn out of my head. The lack of armour facing, damage tables, scatter dice.
A lot of the 40k became basically a damage contest.
For a brief moment (I think it was 5th or 6th edition?) 40k had proper flanking rules, directional cover, proper line of sight. It had flaws, but instead of getting refined, these rules got dropped for the sake of simplicity - but with said simplicity we lost a lot of depth.
1:42 - HERESY!
I have this commissar. He's one of the crown jewels in my Rogue Trader era Imperial Guard army (1988-1992). 😆
Haha. I don't think that looks too bad, all of these old models have such charm.
I got both old and modern miniatures, but i prefer many older things in general.
While I prefer the more "realistic" schemes of modern armies, I definitely appreciate the old school look, and fully advocate intergrating retro design ideas into modern mini painting, chainswords should have yellow hazard stripes, if you've got a captain, why not try free-handing some flames on his greaves? have fun with it.
Easily, The pre 90s GW miniatures are classic, Hand sculpted with character, The plastic junk costs five pence a sprue to make and is sold for 'HOW MUCH'. And then of course you have the rules. Well, I meant to say you 'HAD' rules then the 90s happened, and the rules were replaced with your wallet. Rogue trader has a very special page. It was page number 58 ---- The points system. This page gives you a full and complete value of each point with in the characteristics. This means I can create any life form I like from my own imagination and use any miniatures I like because the rules were balanced properly. But now you are left with a game that is balanced entirely on how much money you spend in GW because the in game power level is the actual mechanism that is used to price their products.
I was never aware of page 58! I have looked through PDFs of rogue trader but I don't own the book or anything. I'll have to check that out. I do know that used to have vehicle creation rules.
@@LetsTalkTabletop My childhood was the 80s and GW was the place to be, I stopped Shopping at GW just after White Dwarf lost its letters page, GW got rid of role playing games, They also got rid of all the 3rd party games they were selling and all the 3rd party adverts in White Dwarf. I did not leave GW. GW left me. I loved Rogue Trader and all the books that came with it. Strangely, it was also compatible with Warhammer fantasy RPG by multiplying or dividing each characteristic. (or the stat stays the same, e.g. toughness, wounds) That actually means that I was running 40k RPG from 1987. I will never know how many other people had the same idea at the same time, But they must have done. How many other people feel as I do? May be not that many because of the complexity of the 87 system.
I remember startin 1992 beeing 12 years old. I was out of the Hobby for over a decade. The Game was much easier to play. I wached some games of 40k recently and I think I have to graduate in a Degree to just follow the game…
The models back in the 90‘s were not as good, as the models today are, but there was nothing to compare. I was wath we had and it was findishly expansive. The pricelevel ist the same.
I still love the old stuff, but painting the newer ist much easier.
I started with 2nd edition and still see it as the best. The scatter dice were quite interesting. You could target the ground with missiles and grenades. So if a target was just out of range you target near it and hope it would scatter to the target, and not back at your guys. GW was a lot better too. You could order individual model components, because the active encouraged customising models and true kit bashing. They would show you how to build and create terrain in White Dwarf. I remember them saying that everyone who worked for GW was part of the hobby, and it showed. I miss those days. I don't play, or buy their stuff anymore, because of their business model and I don't like their newer miniatures.
Ok so I started the same army at same time as you and I do find something nice about those older models.
Now there was a store I use to frequent to play magic between 2003 and 2004 prior to my getting into the usaf, and they had a display for the space warhammer thats been discontinued and I even won a tech marine metal kit in a raffle there.
But I didn’t play the game. And like you looking back it hits the feels of a game I would have enjoyed had I actually played it then.
I still play 2nd Ed to this day never tried another version. Also that ultramarine army in you video 1min in is a mate of mine.
RT and 2nd edition were very cool back in the day but 3rd was my favorite by far. I have not played since 5th. I still have the old minis, mostly Orks some beakies. Love them.
I started in 8th and these days mostly collect retro 3E style models as well. I agree with everything you said about the overly serious and realistic modern vibe but I also think one of the main reasons is how EXPENSIVE it is to keep up with the current game. The model prices are outrageous for what you get and your army has a new codex or supplement or chapter approved every other week. It was liberating to quit all of that and know that all the 3E or 8E books I already have are the definitive rules I need and the models I already own won't be removed from those books!
I started in second edition, quit by fourth.
One thing I will *always* miss is blast templates and cone template weapons. It's a shame what's happened to those.
because some of us were around for older editions of warhammer fantasy and warhammer 40k. Some of us miss that people were encouraged to make and play their own models. Now its just corporatism and following a meta. Then yall cry about how its corporatism and following a meta.
So play some 2nd edition. It's not like the GW Gestapo burned all the 2nd Ed books
Old Warhammer makes me thing of Punk and Thrash album covers, Poppy Cartoon ULTRA-VIOLENCE!
Seriously tho old warhammer was if anything more serious for me because of that Aesthetic, it forced you to suspend your disbelief to engage with it wholly, the way I imagined 4th ed battles in my head was far more "grimdark" than what the new clean tacticool aesthetic evokes. I'm getting rid of all my primaris and bringing my space marines back and it's already reinvigorating my imagination so I don't think its just nostalgia.
As for the old rules, give em a try, I play games that still use similar rules and I personally have much more fun with them, the game truly isn't over until its over. Battles should play out like battles not a board game.
I played 2nd Ed in the early 90s. Can't say I'm nostalgic for it - I prefer the more realistic style. I think people get nostalgic for things they didn't experience precisely because they didn't experience them.
its called having taste. congrats.
Well I kinda have it with historical wargames when I look at how people played in the olden days- gloss coats, untextured bases, ranks of identical toy soldiers. But like in Warhammer I would not like to play those older rulesets- too detailed for not many good resons. I think two factors are at play here- first I think we look at those and we feel "Look how little people needed to have fun, back then". Now with the increese in average painter skillsets, and avaiable hobby products we feel obliged to make the best minis we can, and those older figures give a sese of chill and easy going. Second I feel that wargaming- GW or historical had a different etiquete back then- it encouraged more crafting to make your own terrain, houserules, scenarios. Now people expect ready to go products, updates, expansions etc, so for me, gaming in the 80's, 90's gives a sense of "do it yourself", "make the game your own" feel, and I wished we had more people like that now. Like one of my best experiences was designing a scenario based on a historical skirmish that was only hinted on in the sources, so there were no ready scenarios from any other system. We needed to find the map of the area from 1815, cut out a 4x4km playing area ot of it. Determine what features will need to go onto the board- villages, hamlets, woods, copses etc. We needed to find the order of battle, the corect uniform colors fot our units from that order. And that was such a blast just designing that.
I relate it to Halo. Both are fun now but it's tiered towards competitive. That attracts a certain sweaty type of player and whilst I do like competition, it's a pass time, I want to chill and not overthink it.
I miss the simple fun of it.
I absolutely feel this sentiment hard. The silliness of old warhammer art is what got me interested in the game. They need, desperately to embrace more silliness. The fan base needs to embrace the silliness. 40k, fantasy and AOS are all heavy metal over the top goofy goodness if we just let them be that way. There are power armor brainwashed maniacs riding space bikes waving chainsaws at drunk space orcs shooting lightning out of garbage robots. This shit is silly! And silly is good! Embrace the goofy! Grim Dark is supposed to be tongue in cheek. Grim dark is supposed to be so sneering and mean spirited that it's funny! Bring that back. Playing with little fantasy angry guys on a table is inherently silly and fun.
youre totally right. Because removing grim dark for silliness isnt what got us in the situation where the hobby is watered down.
I feel that it's selection bias. The folks that weren't there didn't experience as many of the lows as the people that were, but the best parts of those days get center stage and the worst brushed aside, especially when it's something we want to share and enjoy with our friends and loved ones.
Your music analogy, for example, every decade had bad music in it, absolute stinkers even. But those aren't the tracks that got polished up and placed in "Greatest Hits" or even "Hidden Gems" collections. They were forgotten.
Yeah, what you're saying is probably true. That probably goes for anything we look retroactively at. I guess that's why everybody is so reminiscent about their childhood. They gloss over all the bad stuff.
I had the 2nd edition starter set and started collecting before then. We had washes and stuff, but the paints were low quality and it was appealing to a younger demographic. The models these days are much nicer, just looking at my favorite game, Space Hulk. I grew up playing 2nd edition, but I’ll take the quality of 3rd edition any day. I think painting techniques have just evolved since we were all tweens and teens in the 90s. I assure you, miniatures were all far too expensive back then as well.
The best cure for the rampant 2nd ed nostalgia is attempting to play 2nd edition, and realizing nobody even tried to do any math whatsoever to make anything anywhere in the realm of reasonable.
Space marines in power armor feel like theyre running into battle in their tighty-whities because a Lasgun is rocking a -1 saving throw modifier, and Terminators conversely with their 3+sv on 2d6 feel like unkillable gods.
Oh you wanted to try a fluffy game where you have some Harlequins vs your buddys Demons, the classic grudge match? Welp problem is 1 bloodletter can fight 5x his points value in clowns no sweat, but...wait, the 3 skimmers the harlequin player brought are INVULNERABLE to the entire Daemon army? Can that be right? Yep, thats right, have fun flying around in your vypers for 4 turns shooting out, never engaging anything in combat because thats an instant death sentence even if you whittled your target down to 1 model.
Lol. Yeah I've heard some horror stories. I also heard that imperial guard leaf blower units of all Leman russes was really tough too.
@LetsTalkTabletop I've never played against guard in 2e, but I do know that they are one of the armies that generally seems to be plating the same game as other armies.
The "Then The Game Designers Put Their Pants On Their Heads" armies are Eldar, Daemons, and Tyranids.
Yes, the old characters had more soul. Less art design, but more soul. The old WFB rules were... clunky. But sometimes I would like to take them out again. 😊
I am in the same boat. In my 30's. Never played Warhammer. Within 6 months I have collected a massive collection of vibrant colored, Eavy Metal style painted Rogue Trader, 2nd, 3rd edition and Epic 40k collection. I even have the first White Dwarf magazine that features a preview of Rogue Trader. I also got the injured space marine minifig in your thumbnail but he's painted Crimson Fist style. I love old kitbashes and have a kitbash of the deodorant grav tank. The original Land Raider and Chaos Dreadnought are some of my favorite designs in my collection. I'm in the minority when I say I actually hate the modern realistic proportions on minifigs and prefer the stylized proportions of the older editions. When I learned about the difference between modern and oldschool Games Workshop I was so turned off by the modern stuff that I boycott them fully. Modern 40k tabletop is horrendous because GW has become far too selfish and greedy. I've seen where people who don't use official plastic bases and 3rd party ones being not allowed to play certain tournaments. I would never ever want to participate in a try-hard tabletop tournament that takes itself too seriously or give a company money that doesn't allow people to play with old models in their stores. So instead of GW getting thousands of dollars from me, 3rd party sellers on ebay and other stores get it instead. If you can't afford old Rogue Trader models then I am all for buying plastic recasts or 3d printing because screw GW and their disgusting policies.
I agree, I think the older models are just so much more charming.
I loved 3rd Edition the most. I played the crap out of it. I also played 4th Edition a huge amount. I left the hobby when 5th Edition came out. I now play BLKOUT and love it. I do kinda like the new Kill Team and Necromunda.
GW peak for me was 3rd edition 40k and 6th edition fantasy. The late 90s till 2005 ish. The period when Mordheim and Battlefleet Gothic were released as well. Just perfection in terms of miniatures design. I personally prefer miniatures with character over realistic ones, and that is why I am not so fond of current GW minis.
It's not rose coloured glasses - Warhammer lost its sense of "humour" from about 2000 onwards. Both fantasy and 40k - the best way to see this is to look at the nature of the Orks from the early days and how they changed with the introduction of 3rd edition 40k and 6th edition fantasy. They lost their silliness and humour, they went from being soccer hooligans in space effectively to monstrous gorilla like barbarians in space almost overnight with the release of those editions. The humour was lost, and it became more 'serious' and 'gothic' than it was before.
Is that thumbnail a gary busey wounded blooboi? Lol!
😄
Id rather have my ye olde tin and cartoony plastic miniatures (playing since 2004) than GWs new monopose, kitbash-hostile cr4p tbh
I did get to play in the 3rd edition stuff. Honestly, the humor that was put into 40k orks is what really hooked me into not just that army but the game as a whole. I mean, paint the vehicle red, and it went faster. Why? Because the orks thought that’s how it worked, so it did. With every step away from that I lost more interest.
i guess being weird enough to collect these toys is not enough for some people, they have to have a special condition for it aswell, well, im just watching
I started in very early 3rd and played 2e with a number of friends. I miss the old fluff and old style of warhammer. It had a lot more personality and was much less... well... it was less shit.
I can't say I miss it since I wasn't around for it and have yet to play a tabletop game. As for the models, while a lot of them feel a tad too ugly or goofy for me, on occasion I'll find one that's ugly and goofy in a way that I like and I'll scour eBay for it.
That is like asking why do you watch/want to watch OG dr Who or Red Dwarf , instead of modern CGI masterpiece like Quantum Mania or "Star Trek" Discovery.
Oh, don't get me started on Nutrek.
For me it's the opposite, I really like the 'grim dark' style of old Horus heresy as opposed to the newer brighter style
Orks and goblins were just comical their sculpts even old golden demon had fun entries that weren't disqualified and even won in the 90s. Now a lot get disqualified for not portraying the direction the company wants to go.