Thanks for the video! Two thoughts.. You may actually want hazardous to kill your dudes so that they can die and shoot more. Dead enemies don’t kill hellblasters. These graphs get more interesting when you average in the chance of guys dieing and adding some shots. It increases the chance for the gladiator to just die rather than almost die. The lieutenant at 65 points is 28% of the cost of the 230 point hellblasters. Looks like the relative change between new oath and new oath + lethal hits vs a gladiator is about 25% (16.3-13=3.3…3.3/13 is roughly 25%) So you actually lose damage per point into ALL targets by adding LT if you use new oath. But there are benefits to having one big unit that deals extra damage and has fall back and attack. You can’t stratagem 2 units.
Oops. I never explicitly said it in the video, but all the simulations with overcharge included the extra shots from models dying due to overwatch. I was really proud that I worked that in and can't believe I never mentioned it! The rest of your points are spot on! Thats exactly why I was not sure about including the LT and I really appreciate you distilling that down. Right On! I appreciate the help!
@@warphammer-math Just curious, do you know that a member of the competitive 40k community has been going by the name "Warphammer" for going on 5 years now? From the Warphammer blog
I've got a B.S. in Applied Mathematics, an M.S. in Applied Economics and I work as a Data Scientist and I am a Dark Angels player. I just found your channel and I have finally found the promised land. Thanks for the great video and I will be a subscriber for life now!
Hey! thanks for the kind words about my Mortarion. A fun combo for Hellblasters is an inquisitor. it's cheap at 55P, has a 2d6 flamer to help make sure those guants or cultists are wiped, and recycles a command point on a 3+ so a good chance that overwatch or command re-roll is free.
Fellow math teacher/Blood Angels player here. You can actually benefit from new oath of moment if you forego all BA specific datasheets (sanguinary guard, death company, characters, etc.). I'm not quite sure it is worth it since our special units are pretty good. I definitely enjoy that the variability is taken into account in your videos. Much better than those "just the expected value" comparisons I see elsewhere.
When im playing casual, i never shoot or charge my buddy's new built or painted thing because 1) we dont get to play often 2) you only get 2 or 3 rounds of actual good gameplay 3) it sucks to lose the new toy youve been waiting to run and now you might be waiting weeks or even a month again if gametime is rare
5:22 Well, the apothecary has to recover 3 hellblasters for hos own points return But ALSO consider how much damage in points that returned hellblaster does to the enemy? If you revive 1 hellblaster, then that 1 hellblaster pumps out 2 to 4 damage on its next round, that could be another hellblasters worth of points taken from the enemy team
i really liked what you did vs the lancer where not only did you show the percent increase but the new mean. the graphs today are great! really enjoying the content keep it up!
7:02 having lethal hits lets the unit be more flexible, and of all the characters the unit could have, the Lieutenant gives the best buff, also giving fallback and shoot which can be useful against jail lists
@@beardfistthegoldenone7273 I found that either the Librarian or the Lieutenant - defensive vs offensive buff. Librarian giving that 4+ invuln is huge, and the Lieutenant's lethal hits and fall-back-and-shoot rules lets the Hellblasters thrive in the midfield.
@@IRdatank Their defensive ability only works against attacks with a damage characteristic of 1, and when within range of an objective marker they control. Overcharged plasma shots should remedy that.
Dis video i liked. You got the audio of both speakers much better this time. Hellblasters are still a lilttle on the expensive side for my taste but you COULD run them solo now with new Oath. Adding titus in there and having them drop via Uriel f.e. sounds very versatile for 300 pts. Also: Don't forget you can add 11% dmg on average for all these shooting attacks as 1/9 of the time people die and shoot again. Very interesting here would be a comparison betwen hellblasters and new sternguard with titus respectively into new oath target. And concerning your question at minute 21: The depiction of info is just fine imo.
For Ultramarines specifically I’ve seen people giving them Lieutenant Titus as a leader. His Sustained hits give them a diet version of the Fire Discipline combo that got nerfed to hell and back for a lot cheaper.
10 minutes into my first video of yours and I'm loving it. I'm studying physics and I love theory crafting the craps out of everything. Love your content ❤
I studied physics at ASU. I'm super stoked to hear this. I bet you irritate the crap out of your gaming group.... mine routinely roots against me. they joke its unfair that I use math to win everything.
@warphammer-math I'm studying in Bonn/Germany. They were just complaining that I theory craft more than I play. What should I say... they just can't see the beauty of a Gauss distribution 😂
I regularly run LT with Plasma Pistol and Apoth with my Hellblasters. Reviving is always happening between hazardous and being shot at. Never been disappointed running that 12 man unit.
One thing you didn't mention is the lieutenant's fall back, shoot and charge. If you (likely) don't kill those 5 terminators and they charge you, you will not lose a turn of shooting when you fall back. That's iff the lieutenant doesn't just kill the termy
They're pretty scary in Angelic Inheritors with a character. Rerolling those 1's lowers variance a bit (making an already reliable squad even more reliable), and with a Librarian, they're pretty tanky too. Lieutenant is probably better, but bookies stop them being an easy counter-fire target. Invuls screw over the opposing maths a lot. Oath if you want, but you need a character for those rerolls anyway, so choose either.
I basically always run a 10 + 2 (a mix of Azrael, a Cap, a lieutenant, or an Apothecary) in my dark angels lists to incredible effect, although I think of them as quasi-expendable. My usual strategy is to point them at a priority target early and take advantage of “for the chapter” to waste it in a turn or two (in my play circle that’s usually Dreadknights, tanks, or tyrannid monsters). Anything they do after that is a bonus. That said before the fire discipline nerf they did GREAT work against backline deep strikes with fire overwatch (with a captain to always keep them in devastator doctrine). My friend dropped a squad of grey knight purifiers to try and take my home obj but the hellblasters (down 3 or 4 models) managed to take out 2/3s of the purifiers squad. That said it was in part because we both ruled that the “critical hits always hit” rule superseded the 6+ on overwatch, meaning the hellblasters were hitting overwatch on 5+ (and getting sustain and lethals from a lieutenant).
First time watching your videos. I legit thought you were having conversations with yourself. Even after looking at the pip’s of your faces, I was convinced one had fake beard, and the other was you. In all seriousness, great content. Love this. Thanks for the video
How GW went from re-rolling both To Hit and To wound for Oath was too good, to getting re-roll to hit and +1 to wound, when so goddamn many of the SM units have twin-linked and other to wound-re-rolls already, THEN stacking the Guilliman buff on top is just one hell of a mystery to me...
Having just completed my LSS Green Belt training, and using Warhammer to "practice" my math skills for said training, this platform really makes me happy; I knew I was doing something right. Requests: Ideally, Devastating Wounds pushes through 16.67% of your damage past the targets Armor/invulnerable saves. When is it better to hit large targets with Massed Dev wound, 1 damage weapons vs hitting them with anti-tank weapons. E.g.: Lascannons against Avatar of Khaine Vs Sternguard against Avatar of Khaine. Bonus (plus my favorite way to take out the Avatar): Salamanders Flamestorm Aggressors w/Immolation Protocols vs Avatar.
Comment for the comment god! These videos are fantastic! I love the vibes and breakdown. So, my only input would be to maybe include the number of models attacking in your graphs, because I didn’t catch at first how many HB in the squad you were representing, so I had to rewind. Also try and use mostly chaos as your targets to jab at your friend lol. But these are great, keep it up!
probably a good unit would be 10 hellblaster lead by lieutenant and enhance to ignore modifier, under +1 wound oaths it seems to be the more versatile(firestorm)
I think this info is awesome. I think the different targets and mean data with variations. I would like to see some info on Inceptors or Aggressors. The new oath of moment seems very strong for those units.
I don't play the table top yet but I love your content. It perfectly fits everything i want in a video. You have a great thing going. Keep up the great work! - Emperor guide us! Edit, I personally love the extra graphs.
Love y’all’s format for this, it makes understanding the math of the game a lot more approachable. I think more graphs are interesting but totally get it if this is more manageable for you.
So if you wanna play a shooty focused space marine army, i`ll play hellblaster for all small to medium stuff ( w/o any leader) and for the big stuff i still play eradicators. Seems nice! This video was very informative thank you
Hellblasters are extremely power unit. In the games that I have used them in I always have gotten their point value worth. I would say personally I think having them with either a Lt or Librarian is the best option (leaning more on the Lt). Especially nowadays in the new Angelic Inheritors detachment because for -1CP you are giving them Sustains + Lethal from Lt. And you're going to targeting your Oath Target, so fish for 6s ...
Since you were talking about an all melee army, I would suggest looking at the damage output of lightning claw Assault Terminators in Liberator Assault Squad. That is far scarier than people think
The New format is nice, I think I did prefer the additional graphs but the new one for when you have so many additional groupings based on the character works really well to not get overwhelming. That said, I really appreciate around the 18:30 mark where when indicating the increase in damage you added the notation of how many wounds that actually calculated to. The ones previously without that notation were harder to follow quickly. Yeah I could do the math in my head but it was helpful you put it there instead.
Gentlemen, I present the maxed out Hellblaster squad. 10 man Hellblasters, Azrael, Lieutenant with bolt rifle. Lt gives Lethal and fall back > shoot, Az gives Sustained 1 and 4+ Invuln. Lion's Blade detachment, Azrael gives the squad the Deathwing keyword, can get Illuminating Fire for +1 to wound (applies to enemy target, so all Deathwing get it). Gets -1 to enemy wound rolls on melee with another stratagem (they're probably beating your toughness). Also gets -1 to be hit if a Ravenwing is in the combat.
Been running Hellblasters with Azrael and Or a lieutenant, this is my absolute MVP unit in basically all my games. Their kill total is just ridiculous.
I like this visualization method better yhan swapping 100charts in, but you should overlay each chart behind the initial chart one at a time, or two at a time of there's an interesting conparison.
I'm going to have to try and move in that directly. I'll have to sit down and play with my code for a while to make that happen. I'll get there though. thanks for the advice.
@warphammer-math I'm about engineer and I have to present data like this to customers and leadership from time to time. Nobody in leadership cares what the numbers are, lol. They just want to see "better" or "worse". Also, I'm curious whatever Lt Titus's Sustained Hits ability would do in the Terminators case.
I love my hellblaster in gladius because: for 305pts (HB + L + FD) i can punch way harder than i should. OoM+ storm of fire in devastator doc gives with heavy gives Sus1 lethalhits bs2+ s8 ap-4 dmg 2 ignores cover. I prefer them to eradicators.
I really love the breakdown with all the graphs that you used to have but I think that the more streamlined look looks a lot better now. Personally I think the new version is probably just a bit better to look at.
ima see if I can find the sweet spot somewhere in the middle. Thank you for the feedback, comments like this are more valuable to me than I think people realize.
Just now discovering your channel, I like it! And I have bad memories of two shooting rounds with my Azrael Hellblasters against Mortarion...he survived the game with 3 recovered wounds 😢 It was my 2nd game in 40k though...
I’m just getting into Warhammer Tabletop with the Dark Angels! I really enjoyed the simulations of the Hellblasters and I plan to run some for sure. I would love a math video on the Deathwing Knights I heard they are extremely tanky!Great video guys!
One view i would like to see a table view with values of both one sigma “likely damage” minimum wounds and two sigma “almost guaranteed” minimum number of wounds. Columns could be different targets and rows different configuration of rerolls/lethals “Probability of doing x damage” is a lot of information but should be reduced to just 1 and 2 sigma values rather then each number of wounds. “68%/95% chance to deal x/y wounds”
the original version of my program spit out things that looked like more traditional stats analysis. I switched to try to make it more approachable. I'm going to be playing with things for a while to see what best suits the audience. I would need to do some updating before I could get the program to create tables like this... some of these simulations literally take several minutes to run on my computer.... and its not a slow computer. I'll get there though. thank you for the suggestion.
Thanks for the video, very interesting one. I disagree on one think though: Librarian is definitevly better than a lieutenant, but in librarius conclave; with divination discipline, prescient precision that can be used on toughest targets, it will definitively kill the lancer; probably a land raider with the failed hazardous tests.
I"m new to this, I don't understand the data sheet or probability or which guns and melee is anti elite, anti tank etc etc. I don't know the perfered leaders and synergies that might be used for any given certain squad. BUT THIS shows me, as a new player, what might be worth it, what might be worth it and tells me in simple terms and stats how much it is worth to do this. I can literally visually see and understand how rerolling hits would help you, how useful +1 to wound is, if you free ball nutsack a full squad without any buffs is, even if it can't kill it, if it could mortally wound a dood significantly before it inevitably gets wiped because my placement was bad, I like the idea of seeing WHAT I CAN EXPECT from said sudoku swing. >>>> this is the most newbie friendly visualization of weapons, of defenses, and in mtg terms, combat tricks to change the out come. Keep doing this!!!
Love your channel! I’d actually really like to see you roll some of these live. You already have a great vibe and rapport, to see you guys react to some live dice rolls would be really fun and interactive.
we have been thinking about this..... maybe do analysis of some of our actual games and then seeing what actually happens. we are.... expressive and excitable when we play. I love this game.
I'm really bad at math and even though I have like 3000 points of Ork I've never played a game of 40k so this video might as well be in Akkadian. But I'm still gonna watch every episode and hope it helps whenever I actually learn how to play the game. Oh yeah can you please show off yalls painted miniatures? I would really love to see them
Honestly, I LOVE painting minis! Its so relaxing and satisfying. I spend easily 3x more of my free time painting as compared to playing and it is at least half of the pleasure I get from the hobby. When I get a bit more of a following I will definitely have an episode showing off my army and talking about how I use the units. As for the math. I have always found that the math is not essential, but can help you build intuition faster. It takes longer, but you can come to many of the same conclusions just through gaming experience. Thank you for the support!
@@jibjibs9401 when I got into the hobby I was only planning on painting and had no plans of ever playing the game so I could just paint the models whatever models I liked. Then I fell in love with Orks and just started building an actual army but it was during lockdown and none of my friends played so I couldn't go to a LGS store to learn how to play. Then next thing I know I have 1800 points of Orks, 1200 points of space wolves( I got the box set with Ghaz and Ragnar so why not start Space wolves), then I saw the Morty model and started death guard. Then I lost everything in a wild fire and had to rebuild my entire life so there was money for Warhammer. Then about a year ago things had settled down and I started painting as a meditation and bam almost 3000 points. I've tried to go learn how to play but I've developed such crippling social anxiety in the past couple years I just can't seem to make myself go learn. Sorry for trauma dumping.
Loving the content! I need more of all of it, especially salamanders in firestorm 🔥 🔥 🔥 Speaking of, I know the gladiator lancer is the go to for marines just for that gun profile, but in firestorm and under Mr. Vulkan He’Stan is the gladiator valiant better for taking out tanks/monsters/mortarion? Surely both multimeltas and the twin lascannon can outperform the laser destroyer in firestorm with Mr. He’stans forgefather ability. Also how many valiants do I need to yolo at Mr. Mortarion to remove Mr. Mortarion in 1 go?
Hey, would have loved to see u talk about the hazardous in a vehicle with a shooting deck. I don't need a detailed explanation of all the graphs, but a short look at them would be nice. i can always pause
I was playing a game as Thousand Sons vs Space Wolves (Gladius Task Force, Fire Discipline enhancement wasn't changed yet). My opponent had a stormraven gunship and he dropped out his 10 Hellblasters w/ both a Lt & Capt. He declared Dev Doctrine. I don't recall how many 6s he rolled but I remember having to make +20 4++ on Magnus. And if you ever played against T-Sons you know that can do some dumb shit... Reroll 2 failed for free, blank damage to 0, CP reroll, -1 to hit because was in my Daemon Prince aura, and Magnus has a built-in -1 Damage(which wasn't active because I Chosen +2" to movement because I thought he was safe in the corner). Needless to say Magnus outright died... Mainly because of me, had I elected -1 damage he might have survived, because failing 16 is way harder to do than to fail 8... TLDR Hellbaster are way to keep for what they are, and considering how hard they punch. Put 5 inside a Impulsor and use that Firing Deck⁶ ability and just take all your Hazards on the vehicle. Then if the vehicle is destroyed, you get your guys out and they should be eligible to shoot again...(Not sure, I would have to check rules)
Hellblaster with a librarian in the grotmas detachment (codex compliant). Fusillade enhancement (anti-monster 5+ and sustain), prescient precision strat (lethal hit) on oathed mortarion (reroll hit, +1 to wound). Wich would be better: Divination during the turn (reroll 1 to wound and ignore cover with the strat) or pyromancy (-1 AP and sustain hit)?
Last Request: can you create a "shorthand" video where you explain what each Bonus does translated into math? E.g: +1 to hit = x% bonus, rerolls = y% bonus. Maybe a quick review on Rolled Throughput Yeild and how its calced.
hellblasters with a lt and azrael in the new grotmas detachment can get: sustained and lethal hits, +1 to wound and a 4++ that combo is disgusting and with azrael you can pretty reliably safe a bad hazardous roll cause he gives a 4+ fnp against mortals. its very expensive but it will take out pretty much anything
Id like to see how inceptors compare to these guys, +20 pts for some serious gun upgrades im pretty sure they have like a 70% chance aggregate to destroy any 12 wound vehicle, which is probably super value. Also how their bolter profile compares, as if the bolter can get vehicle slaying profiles, then bolters will be better
I think you're going to have to do intercessors soon. The changes to their hit targeting the same target make them an incredible volume fire unit. I'm curious about the benefits of a lieutenant with them against tougher targets.
These videoes are great! Id love to see a breakdown of a Forgefiends ectoplasma cannons. Its a big shooting profile that can be very swingy with dark pacts and or its hazardous/dev wound profiles.
Hey WarpHammer love the Video I'd be curious about a particular combo for you using The sternguard veterans and the two weapon options they have. in multiple games I have run I was able to melt Terminators with the bolt rifle and heavy bolter since they have dev wounds. it would be a fascinating break down the different graphs between the regular sternguard bolt rifle and the combi weapon. me I personally use the Imperial fist detachment. personal favorite stratagem is the sustained hits stratagem which give crit hits on 5+ when stationary and +1 to wound ( when not including the new Oath of moment +1 to wound ability) with sternguard now able to reroll wounds against OoM targets, perhaps an interesting graph where you break down the benefits of having that additional +1 to wound from the imperial fist detachment since I know there are a few ways people can give themself a way to do -1 to wound. P.S.- if you do this combo and it turns out to be surprisingly good I would be curious to see what would happen against the infamous -1 damage deathwing knights vs the normal assault termies, since the bolt weapons are relatively low damage is it just straight better to shoot lower damage shots more often since they don't get modified as much/ not as swingy. and just because it would be funny throw in the calculation with Pedro Kantor (and maybe a lieutenant) for Pedro's ability to pop the 'Oath of Rynn' granting +1 attacks to all weapons equipped by models in the unit. I am fairly certain this combo may be able to melt Terminators potentially. Also seeing the calculations with and without a lieutenant would be interesting since if you get a lethal hit you cannot get that roll to be a devastating wound.
Thanks for the video!
Two thoughts..
You may actually want hazardous to kill your dudes so that they can die and shoot more. Dead enemies don’t kill hellblasters. These graphs get more interesting when you average in the chance of guys dieing and adding some shots. It increases the chance for the gladiator to just die rather than almost die.
The lieutenant at 65 points is 28% of the cost of the 230 point hellblasters. Looks like the relative change between new oath and new oath + lethal hits vs a gladiator is about 25% (16.3-13=3.3…3.3/13 is roughly 25%)
So you actually lose damage per point into ALL targets by adding LT if you use new oath. But there are benefits to having one big unit that deals extra damage and has fall back and attack. You can’t stratagem 2 units.
Oops. I never explicitly said it in the video, but all the simulations with overcharge included the extra shots from models dying due to overwatch. I was really proud that I worked that in and can't believe I never mentioned it!
The rest of your points are spot on! Thats exactly why I was not sure about including the LT and I really appreciate you distilling that down. Right On! I appreciate the help!
@@warphammer-math Just curious, do you know that a member of the competitive 40k community has been going by the name "Warphammer" for going on 5 years now? From the Warphammer blog
I've got a B.S. in Applied Mathematics, an M.S. in Applied Economics and I work as a Data Scientist and I am a Dark Angels player. I just found your channel and I have finally found the promised land. Thanks for the great video and I will be a subscriber for life now!
I work in Lean Six Sigma, and Data Analysis in Warhammer Tickles my brain just right.
Hey! thanks for the kind words about my Mortarion. A fun combo for Hellblasters is an inquisitor. it's cheap at 55P, has a 2d6 flamer to help make sure those guants or cultists are wiped, and recycles a command point on a 3+ so a good chance that overwatch or command re-roll is free.
Isn’t inquisitor for battleline only?
Fellow math teacher/Blood Angels player here. You can actually benefit from new oath of moment if you forego all BA specific datasheets (sanguinary guard, death company, characters, etc.). I'm not quite sure it is worth it since our special units are pretty good.
I definitely enjoy that the variability is taken into account in your videos. Much better than those "just the expected value" comparisons I see elsewhere.
ayyyyy! welcome comrade. / also I love my death company too much to give them up!
My Hellblasters one-shot my friend's Rogal Dorn the first game he brought it after spending 2 months as a new Dad painting it.
Felt good and bad.
thats the fresh paint curse.
When im playing casual, i never shoot or charge my buddy's new built or painted thing because
1) we dont get to play often
2) you only get 2 or 3 rounds of actual good gameplay
3) it sucks to lose the new toy youve been waiting to run and now you might be waiting weeks or even a month again if gametime is rare
5:22
Well, the apothecary has to recover 3 hellblasters for hos own points return
But ALSO consider how much damage in points that returned hellblaster does to the enemy?
If you revive 1 hellblaster, then that 1 hellblaster pumps out 2 to 4 damage on its next round, that could be another hellblasters worth of points taken from the enemy team
i really liked what you did vs the lancer where not only did you show the percent increase but the new mean. the graphs today are great! really enjoying the content keep it up!
^^ This, adding numbers tot he % is always good.
7:02 having lethal hits lets the unit be more flexible, and of all the characters the unit could have, the Lieutenant gives the best buff, also giving fallback and shoot which can be useful against jail lists
I really should have mentioned that. that is a huge buff to hellblasters.
Is the Apothecary not a good pick? I'm torn between the 2.
@@beardfistthegoldenone7273 I found that either the Librarian or the Lieutenant - defensive vs offensive buff. Librarian giving that 4+ invuln is huge, and the Lieutenant's lethal hits and fall-back-and-shoot rules lets the Hellblasters thrive in the midfield.
I like how you show the chance to make damage instead of just the averages. Also being two people adds to the enjoyment as well, good video
The quality of your videos has improved so much in so little time. This is amazing
we're trying to pay alot of attention to the feedback. AND I'm having alot of fun with it.
Running my Hellblasters with Azrael and an Apothecary :)
That is one of my favorite setups
It is a brutal combo for Dark Angels
I was about to mention the apoth attached is so good
Ran this in my most recent game. Great setup. However, lesson learned about trying to shoot out a Heavy Intercessor squad.
@@IRdatank Their defensive ability only works against attacks with a damage characteristic of 1, and when within range of an objective marker they control. Overcharged plasma shots should remedy that.
When you said that reroll Hits changed the distribution of the curve, I would have liked to have seen that new graph for at least one of the scenarios
yeah, I'ma have to find a middle ground.
The format is great, especially having the character and rules boosts on the right hand side
Dis video i liked. You got the audio of both speakers much better this time.
Hellblasters are still a lilttle on the expensive side for my taste but you COULD run them solo now with new Oath. Adding titus in there and having them drop via Uriel f.e. sounds very versatile for 300 pts.
Also: Don't forget you can add 11% dmg on average for all these shooting attacks as 1/9 of the time people die and shoot again.
Very interesting here would be a comparison betwen hellblasters and new sternguard with titus respectively into new oath target.
And concerning your question at minute 21: The depiction of info is just fine imo.
For Ultramarines specifically I’ve seen people giving them Lieutenant Titus as a leader. His Sustained hits give them a diet version of the Fire Discipline combo that got nerfed to hell and back for a lot cheaper.
I HEARD LEAVING A COMMENT GIVES YOU AN EXTRA COMMAND POINT IN YOUR NEXT GAME!
It’s on the internet so you know it’s true.
I think adding in a different colored graph behind the original base unit would be cool for each new version. so you can see how things change
You are brilliant! You have a great vibe and full of useful info
10 minutes into my first video of yours and I'm loving it. I'm studying physics and I love theory crafting the craps out of everything. Love your content ❤
I studied physics at ASU. I'm super stoked to hear this. I bet you irritate the crap out of your gaming group.... mine routinely roots against me. they joke its unfair that I use math to win everything.
@warphammer-math I'm studying in Bonn/Germany. They were just complaining that I theory craft more than I play. What should I say... they just can't see the beauty of a Gauss distribution 😂
I regularly run LT with Plasma Pistol and Apoth with my Hellblasters. Reviving is always happening between hazardous and being shot at.
Never been disappointed running that 12 man unit.
with all the other investment... I think you might be right.
The points cost of the Apoth is easily worth the "1cp" tax talked about near the beginning
Love the format and delivery!
One thing you didn't mention is the lieutenant's fall back, shoot and charge. If you (likely) don't kill those 5 terminators and they charge you, you will not lose a turn of shooting when you fall back. That's iff the lieutenant doesn't just kill the termy
They're pretty scary in Angelic Inheritors with a character. Rerolling those 1's lowers variance a bit (making an already reliable squad even more reliable), and with a Librarian, they're pretty tanky too. Lieutenant is probably better, but bookies stop them being an easy counter-fire target. Invuls screw over the opposing maths a lot.
Oath if you want, but you need a character for those rerolls anyway, so choose either.
I basically always run a 10 + 2 (a mix of Azrael, a Cap, a lieutenant, or an Apothecary) in my dark angels lists to incredible effect, although I think of them as quasi-expendable. My usual strategy is to point them at a priority target early and take advantage of “for the chapter” to waste it in a turn or two (in my play circle that’s usually Dreadknights, tanks, or tyrannid monsters). Anything they do after that is a bonus. That said before the fire discipline nerf they did GREAT work against backline deep strikes with fire overwatch (with a captain to always keep them in devastator doctrine). My friend dropped a squad of grey knight purifiers to try and take my home obj but the hellblasters (down 3 or 4 models) managed to take out 2/3s of the purifiers squad. That said it was in part because we both ruled that the “critical hits always hit” rule superseded the 6+ on overwatch, meaning the hellblasters were hitting overwatch on 5+ (and getting sustain and lethals from a lieutenant).
First time watching your videos. I legit thought you were having conversations with yourself. Even after looking at the pip’s of your faces, I was convinced one had fake beard, and the other was you. In all seriousness, great content. Love this. Thanks for the video
Another one!! Heck yeah!!! Keep pumping them out buddy 😊
How GW went from re-rolling both To Hit and To wound for Oath was too good, to getting re-roll to hit and +1 to wound, when so goddamn many of the SM units have twin-linked and other to wound-re-rolls already, THEN stacking the Guilliman buff on top is just one hell of a mystery to me...
Absolutely great format the graphs and minimalism is keeps things manageable.
@eonsofbattle
Shout out from the Math Guys for your deathguard paint job!
Something you didn’t touch on with the LT is that they also give free fall back shoot and charge.
Having just completed my LSS Green Belt training, and using Warhammer to "practice" my math skills for said training, this platform really makes me happy; I knew I was doing something right.
Requests:
Ideally, Devastating Wounds pushes through 16.67% of your damage past the targets Armor/invulnerable saves.
When is it better to hit large targets with Massed Dev wound, 1 damage weapons vs hitting them with anti-tank weapons.
E.g.: Lascannons against Avatar of Khaine
Vs
Sternguard against Avatar of Khaine.
Bonus (plus my favorite way to take out the Avatar): Salamanders Flamestorm Aggressors w/Immolation Protocols vs Avatar.
As a fellow maths person, I want ALL.THE.GRAPHS.
i feel you. noted.
Now i'm more motivated to study for my statistics class haha, thanks for the content
I love math soo much... I def undervalued stats when I was in school.
This format is great, subbed
I wish I had you as my Math teacher. Love your work.
I love being a teacher. math can be so much fun.
I just finished painting these guys.
Getting the wire attached to the pack and arms has not been fun.
Blowing up a gladius though? Very fun. 😊
I just found your page, and I love it!!! As a blood angel player I'm super stoked to have found your page!
Comment for the comment god! These videos are fantastic! I love the vibes and breakdown. So, my only input would be to maybe include the number of models attacking in your graphs, because I didn’t catch at first how many HB in the squad you were representing, so I had to rewind. Also try and use mostly chaos as your targets to jab at your friend lol. But these are great, keep it up!
Really good point! I made those little data sheet banners so I’ll include that on the next one!! Thanks a bunch for the helpful feedback
yup, fantastic idea.
Kinda feel better that that is usually how I run my hellblasters. Though I usually only run five man squad. Thanks for doing the math on that guys.
probably a good unit would be 10 hellblaster lead by lieutenant and enhance to ignore modifier, under +1 wound oaths it seems to be the more versatile(firestorm)
I think this info is awesome. I think the different targets and mean data with variations. I would like to see some info on Inceptors or Aggressors. The new oath of moment seems very strong for those units.
First time my buddy played against me, they dealt 27 wounds to his thunderhawk in one turn. He’s still mad about that one 😂
I don't play the table top yet but I love your content. It perfectly fits everything i want in a video. You have a great thing going. Keep up the great work!
- Emperor guide us!
Edit, I personally love the extra graphs.
Love y’all’s format for this, it makes understanding the math of the game a lot more approachable. I think more graphs are interesting but totally get it if this is more manageable for you.
thank you!
You can also attach Lt Titus and get Sustained Hits on the Hellblasters
10 hellblasters with a lieutenant and the fire discipline enhancment from gladius has been a constant kill everything unit i love to bring.
Not anymore sadly
@@Peacocksgottafly they're still great just costs a bit more
@@willschuchat3445 no crits on 5 anymore
@@bram8731 oh damn guess that's what I get for not playing spacemarines for two months 😅
It just means you need to join the green brotherhood as they can still do the crit on 5s lethal sustained combo
So if you wanna play a shooty focused space marine army, i`ll play hellblaster for all small to medium stuff ( w/o any leader) and for the big stuff i still play eradicators. Seems nice! This video was very informative thank you
I was just hoping for another video by you!!
Hellblasters are extremely power unit. In the games that I have used them in I always have gotten their point value worth. I would say personally I think having them with either a Lt or Librarian is the best option (leaning more on the Lt). Especially nowadays in the new Angelic Inheritors detachment because for -1CP you are giving them Sustains + Lethal from Lt. And you're going to targeting your Oath Target, so fish for 6s ...
Thank you 🎉🎉
Since you were talking about an all melee army, I would suggest looking at the damage output of lightning claw Assault Terminators in Liberator Assault Squad. That is far scarier than people think
you are sooo right on this one. much better in LAG than anywhere else.
The New format is nice, I think I did prefer the additional graphs but the new one for when you have so many additional groupings based on the character works really well to not get overwhelming. That said, I really appreciate around the 18:30 mark where when indicating the increase in damage you added the notation of how many wounds that actually calculated to. The ones previously without that notation were harder to follow quickly. Yeah I could do the math in my head but it was helpful you put it there instead.
totally. That makes a lot of sense. thx.
Love the videos, as a chemist I’m a bit of a data geek, I do prefer the previous format, but can work with this one!!
still a work in progress... I agree with you.
Thanks Auspex Tactics
Thanks for doing the hellblasters! I like the new format for presenting the data too. :)
You and your bros dynamic is the best
I love that guy. I feel so lucky to have him.
wow! exactly the channel for me! keep up with the good work!
Gentlemen, I present the maxed out Hellblaster squad.
10 man Hellblasters, Azrael, Lieutenant with bolt rifle. Lt gives Lethal and fall back > shoot, Az gives Sustained 1 and 4+ Invuln. Lion's Blade detachment, Azrael gives the squad the Deathwing keyword, can get Illuminating Fire for +1 to wound (applies to enemy target, so all Deathwing get it). Gets -1 to enemy wound rolls on melee with another stratagem (they're probably beating your toughness). Also gets -1 to be hit if a Ravenwing is in the combat.
sooo mean!
Love the vs. model! Keep it up guys.
"2/3 of the time you are losing none or one" Seriously never happened for me. I lose 2-3 each time.
Been running Hellblasters with Azrael and Or a lieutenant, this is my absolute MVP unit in basically all my games.
Their kill total is just ridiculous.
You are my favorite Warhammer channel on RUclips.
Make more videos!!
I like this visualization method better yhan swapping 100charts in, but you should overlay each chart behind the initial chart one at a time, or two at a time of there's an interesting conparison.
I'm going to have to try and move in that directly. I'll have to sit down and play with my code for a while to make that happen. I'll get there though. thanks for the advice.
@warphammer-math I'm about engineer and I have to present data like this to customers and leadership from time to time. Nobody in leadership cares what the numbers are, lol. They just want to see "better" or "worse".
Also, I'm curious whatever Lt Titus's Sustained Hits ability would do in the Terminators case.
awesome format! More graphs are also nice for me but I am used to work with data...
I love my hellblaster in gladius because: for 305pts (HB + L + FD) i can punch way harder than i should. OoM+ storm of fire in devastator doc gives with heavy gives Sus1 lethalhits bs2+ s8 ap-4 dmg 2 ignores cover. I prefer them to eradicators.
I really love the breakdown with all the graphs that you used to have but I think that the more streamlined look looks a lot better now. Personally I think the new version is probably just a bit better to look at.
ima see if I can find the sweet spot somewhere in the middle. Thank you for the feedback, comments like this are more valuable to me than I think people realize.
10 hellblasters, Azrael, apothecary. Extra command points, bring back a body and if you get to many ones pop Azraels watcher for a 4+fnp, sustained 1
Whoohoo new warphammer video!! Thanks guys love your work
Also yes I agree about Jay's Mortarion. What an insanely good model.
I wish I had that much courage with my color choices. Im trying... I find him really inspiring.
Just now discovering your channel, I like it!
And I have bad memories of two shooting rounds with my Azrael Hellblasters against Mortarion...he survived the game with 3 recovered wounds 😢
It was my 2nd game in 40k though...
I prefer seeing the charts of the last one. Please give me all the graphs
I agree, seeing the graphs change is much easier to understand instead of "+33% increase" etc
33%more graphs!!!
Agree
I'm so glad that this seems to be the consensus.
im on it!
Love the new format but more graphs are welcome. If you have a website where you can upload these stats as you calculate that would be awesome!
web page is definitely in the works.... but its a slow process.
I’m just getting into Warhammer Tabletop with the Dark Angels! I really enjoyed the simulations of the Hellblasters and I plan to run some for sure. I would love a math video on the Deathwing Knights I heard they are extremely tanky!Great video guys!
they are sooooo mean. That is definitely on my short list.
All hail Algorithmo! Comments for the comment throne!
One view i would like to see a table view with values of both one sigma “likely damage” minimum wounds and two sigma “almost guaranteed” minimum number of wounds. Columns could be different targets and rows different configuration of rerolls/lethals
“Probability of doing x damage” is a lot of information but should be reduced to just 1 and 2 sigma values rather then each number of wounds. “68%/95% chance to deal x/y wounds”
the original version of my program spit out things that looked like more traditional stats analysis. I switched to try to make it more approachable. I'm going to be playing with things for a while to see what best suits the audience. I would need to do some updating before I could get the program to create tables like this... some of these simulations literally take several minutes to run on my computer.... and its not a slow computer. I'll get there though. thank you for the suggestion.
Thanks for the video, very interesting one. I disagree on one think though: Librarian is definitevly better than a lieutenant, but in librarius conclave; with divination discipline, prescient precision that can be used on toughest targets, it will definitively kill the lancer; probably a land raider with the failed hazardous tests.
Excellent video!
I"m new to this, I don't understand the data sheet or probability or which guns and melee is anti elite, anti tank etc etc. I don't know the perfered leaders and synergies that might be used for any given certain squad.
BUT THIS shows me, as a new player, what might be worth it, what might be worth it and tells me in simple terms and stats how much it is worth to do this. I can literally visually see and understand how rerolling hits would help you, how useful +1 to wound is, if you free ball nutsack a full squad without any buffs is, even if it can't kill it, if it could mortally wound a dood significantly before it inevitably gets wiped because my placement was bad, I like the idea of seeing WHAT I CAN EXPECT from said sudoku swing.
>>>> this is the most newbie friendly visualization of weapons, of defenses, and in mtg terms, combat tricks to change the out come. Keep doing this!!!
this is killer math👍. I would like to see more.
Love your channel! I’d actually really like to see you roll some of these live. You already have a great vibe and rapport, to see you guys react to some live dice rolls would be really fun and interactive.
we have been thinking about this..... maybe do analysis of some of our actual games and then seeing what actually happens. we are.... expressive and excitable when we play. I love this game.
I'm really bad at math and even though I have like 3000 points of Ork I've never played a game of 40k so this video might as well be in Akkadian. But I'm still gonna watch every episode and hope it helps whenever I actually learn how to play the game. Oh yeah can you please show off yalls painted miniatures? I would really love to see them
I'm just shy of 1500 points of marines and I also have never played game. Too bad we are not neighbours
@@BrotherVeliThis seems a little crazy to me. I have 2 armies at
around 2000 points but can’t imagine having half as much if
I didn’t play.
Honestly, I LOVE painting minis! Its so relaxing and satisfying. I spend easily 3x more of my free time painting as compared to playing and it is at least half of the pleasure I get from the hobby. When I get a bit more of a following I will definitely have an episode showing off my army and talking about how I use the units. As for the math. I have always found that the math is not essential, but can help you build intuition faster. It takes longer, but you can come to many of the same conclusions just through gaming experience. Thank you for the support!
@@jibjibs9401 when I got into the hobby I was only planning on painting and had no plans of ever playing the game so I could just paint the models whatever models I liked. Then I fell in love with Orks and just started building an actual army but it was during lockdown and none of my friends played so I couldn't go to a LGS store to learn how to play. Then next thing I know I have 1800 points of Orks, 1200 points of space wolves( I got the box set with Ghaz and Ragnar so why not start Space wolves), then I saw the Morty model and started death guard. Then I lost everything in a wild fire and had to rebuild my entire life so there was money for Warhammer. Then about a year ago things had settled down and I started painting as a meditation and bam almost 3000 points. I've tried to go learn how to play but I've developed such crippling social anxiety in the past couple years I just can't seem to make myself go learn. Sorry for trauma dumping.
@@warphammer-math I would really love to see y'all's models and look forward to it.
love this format more graphs would be cool
WOOOOO I LOVE THIS CHANNEL
I just started 40k back in october and this is super useful.
welcome to the hobby. I started back in the 90's and I feel like the community has become sooo much healthier.
with my extra cp for commenting, I re-roll my hazardous check
Loving the content! I need more of all of it, especially salamanders in firestorm 🔥 🔥 🔥
Speaking of, I know the gladiator lancer is the go to for marines just for that gun profile, but in firestorm and under Mr. Vulkan He’Stan is the gladiator valiant better for taking out tanks/monsters/mortarion?
Surely both multimeltas and the twin lascannon can outperform the laser destroyer in firestorm with Mr. He’stans forgefather ability.
Also how many valiants do I need to yolo at Mr. Mortarion to remove Mr. Mortarion in 1 go?
Hey, would have loved to see u talk about the hazardous in a vehicle with a shooting deck.
I don't need a detailed explanation of all the graphs, but a short look at them would be nice. i can always pause
good thinking. I'm adding that to my list of shorts to make.
Great content! Thanks!
I was playing a game as Thousand Sons vs Space Wolves (Gladius Task Force, Fire Discipline enhancement wasn't changed yet). My opponent had a stormraven gunship and he dropped out his 10 Hellblasters w/ both a Lt & Capt. He declared Dev Doctrine. I don't recall how many 6s he rolled but I remember having to make +20 4++ on Magnus. And if you ever played against T-Sons you know that can do some dumb shit... Reroll 2 failed for free, blank damage to 0, CP reroll, -1 to hit because was in my Daemon Prince aura, and Magnus has a built-in -1 Damage(which wasn't active because I Chosen +2" to movement because I thought he was safe in the corner). Needless to say Magnus outright died... Mainly because of me, had I elected -1 damage he might have survived, because failing 16 is way harder to do than to fail 8...
TLDR Hellbaster are way to keep for what they are, and considering how hard they punch. Put 5 inside a Impulsor and use that Firing Deck⁶ ability and just take all your Hazards on the vehicle. Then if the vehicle is destroyed, you get your guys out and they should be eligible to shoot again...(Not sure, I would have to check rules)
Hellblaster with a librarian in the grotmas detachment (codex compliant). Fusillade enhancement (anti-monster 5+ and sustain), prescient precision strat (lethal hit) on oathed mortarion (reroll hit, +1 to wound). Wich would be better: Divination during the turn (reroll 1 to wound and ignore cover with the strat) or pyromancy (-1 AP and sustain hit)?
I havent tried this detachment yet... but im really excited to
Last Request: can you create a "shorthand" video where you explain what each Bonus does translated into math?
E.g: +1 to hit = x% bonus, rerolls = y% bonus.
Maybe a quick review on Rolled Throughput Yeild and how its calced.
More graphs, more info, more Mortarion
hellblasters with a lt and azrael in the new grotmas detachment can get: sustained and lethal hits, +1 to wound and a 4++
that combo is disgusting and with azrael you can pretty reliably safe a bad hazardous roll cause he gives a 4+ fnp against mortals.
its very expensive but it will take out pretty much anything
Bro has the iron hands mindset of statistically superior units
Id like to see how inceptors compare to these guys, +20 pts for some serious gun upgrades im pretty sure they have like a 70% chance aggregate to destroy any 12 wound vehicle, which is probably super value. Also how their bolter profile compares, as if the bolter can get vehicle slaying profiles, then bolters will be better
I think you're going to have to do intercessors soon. The changes to their hit targeting the same target make them an incredible volume fire unit. I'm curious about the benefits of a lieutenant with them against tougher targets.
These videoes are great! Id love to see a breakdown of a Forgefiends ectoplasma cannons. Its a big shooting profile that can be very swingy with dark pacts and or its hazardous/dev wound profiles.
I almost did that instead of the eradicator video. I love this model and my brother plays it all the time. I'll prob do a video on it at some point.
So glad I based my entire Space Marine army on these guys.
dude, with 20 of them on the field..... boy, did I feel powerful!
Hope you guys had a good Christmas break guys, keep up the good work :)
Hey WarpHammer love the Video I'd be curious about a particular combo for you using The sternguard veterans and the two weapon options they have. in multiple games I have run I was able to melt Terminators with the bolt rifle and heavy bolter since they have dev wounds. it would be a fascinating break down the different graphs between the regular sternguard bolt rifle and the combi weapon. me I personally use the Imperial fist detachment. personal favorite stratagem is the sustained hits stratagem which give crit hits on 5+ when stationary and +1 to wound ( when not including the new Oath of moment +1 to wound ability) with sternguard now able to reroll wounds against OoM targets, perhaps an interesting graph where you break down the benefits of having that additional +1 to wound from the imperial fist detachment since I know there are a few ways people can give themself a way to do -1 to wound.
P.S.- if you do this combo and it turns out to be surprisingly good I would be curious to see what would happen against the infamous -1 damage deathwing knights vs the normal assault termies, since the bolt weapons are relatively low damage is it just straight better to shoot lower damage shots more often since they don't get modified as much/ not as swingy. and just because it would be funny throw in the calculation with Pedro Kantor (and maybe a lieutenant) for Pedro's ability to pop the 'Oath of Rynn' granting +1 attacks to all weapons equipped by models in the unit. I am fairly certain this combo may be able to melt Terminators potentially. Also seeing the calculations with and without a lieutenant would be interesting since if you get a lethal hit you cannot get that roll to be a devastating wound.
I feel like you've been reading my army list! I swapped to hellblasters a week ago after the eradicator/fire discipline nerf
lol, we in this boat together :)