lol…. Very roughly… 16(wounds)*6(save roll)*6(wound roll)*3(hitting on 5’s)*1(attacks per model)*140%(roughly the overkill trend we found in the video… though I don’t know if that holds, but we’ll use it as an estimate)~3629 fire warriors ~27,225pts…. But I think it would be REALLY hard to get them all in engagement range!
Love to see simulation based math rather than the average based off of one activation, extremely happy to see it being put out so swings can be seen instead of just a flat expected value
@mobilegamersunite I don't think there is. It's in his abilities not his Host of Plagues and so they stack together(so long as you choose a HoP at the top of each round)
Amazing video, great editing, live your and the co-hosts energy. Small note for the co-host and yourself, devastating wounds are now mortal wounds, so FNP works against them
Thank you, that feedback is super helpful!! Keep letting us know if you find little blips like that so we can make the best content possible for you guys!!
It’d be interesting to see how a C’Tan (namely the nightbringer) would match up against mortarion - similar points cost and a lot of similarities. Nightbringer in particular has a 4+ invul, 5+ FNP, halves all incoming attack damage, and reanimates D3 per turn (3d3 if you have a reanimator and Technomancer within 6”). I doubt either would die in the first turn but it would be interesting to see who’d have the edge in a one on one and with various supports. My day job is in quantitative research and studied math in undergrad so I’ve day dreamed about writing my own sims - it’s cool to see someone else doing it!
@@sanerog8727 It's not about halving the damage, its about ctan being able to heal every turn and the nightbringers devastating wounds to bypass the invul save. Morty does flat 4 damage, even if you just roll average for reanimation protocol you'll be healing for 2 which basically cuts morty's damage in half anyways.
Hey, Black Templars player here. Check the math on the "kill a titan in one go" combo, ala Sword Brethren with Helbrecht and a Lieutenant. The damage they output is insane, mine have cracked countless tough as nails targets (and even multiple different tough targets) in a single go. Five or ten, its a truly nasty combo to slap just about anyone in the face with
Never found mathing warhammer too exciting but you guys hit the spot, feels fun and exploring just the right amount of "what if". Really enjoying the content!
thanks @paddydunford1475 that means the world to us! we are trying really really hard to produce something that will benefit the math-hammer community!
Lowkey shout out to Urien Rakarth which is only 5 wound character but crazy resilient for 80pts. 4++ and 4+++ and comes back on 2+! Plus -1 wound strat, which is extra great when he can bring back D3 body guards per turn.
Mate, insane work on the videos, you guys are quickly becoming a fav! I'd love to see the Good old guard featured here as well at some point, Feels like theres a lot of potential there!
@@warphammer-math Maybe Rogal Dorn? That thing is a walking arsenal and whenever i use it, i feel like im dishing out a toooon fo damage! Maybe comparing Leman Russ variations is an option as well!
If you have an opportunity, I'd like to see how two 10-man squads of Fulgarite Electropriests do charging into him with Data-psalm Conclave, led by a Tech-Priest Dominus (one with Temporcopia and one with Data-blessed Autosermon) and the appropriate Benedictions (Citation in Savagery) and Doctrines (Conqueror Imperative, plus a stratagem 'Chant of the Remorseless Fist.')
Sternguard Veterans with a Librarian with the Fusillade enhancement from the Librarius Conclave Detachment kill him pretty easily if he's your Oath of Moment target. And if you worried that you will not down him with just shooting you can grenade him twice; once with actual grenade and second with Assail from the detachment. 280 points to kill a 300 point threat isn't terrible.
This is awesome, thank you! For Eldar, one of the best combos I can think of against something like Mortarion or a C'Tan is a unit of harlequins with a troupe leader charging from a falcon, throwing grenades, shooting from Melta range, and using tank shock from the falcon. Ideally supported by a unit of warp spiders shooting as well.
I LOVE harlequins. I don’t have any yet though. I’m slightly intimidated to paint them…. But really want to play with them. I def have to look into that.
Also you might consider things like grenades, hammer of wrath, tank shock against templates like mortarion, or the avatar. IT is fun because it is way around math, just like dev.
Would love to see how Magnus does on average in the shooting phase against Morty. I was playing Tsons the other day against a friend and I just shot Morty off the board, first turn. My friend and I were both very surprised. I did spend a cp for DEVASTATING SORCERY, and in edition all of my shots had dev wounds. It was glorious!!
Another totally awesome video! I hadn't realized Mortarian was such a tough nut to crack. Can you do a video on the necron C'Tan? T11, 12 wounds, 4+armor, 4+ invulnerable, 5+ feel no pain, and halves all damage rounding up. And the C'Tan Deciever has stealth on top of all of that. The other shards do not have stealth.
Recently got back into the hobby. Just today I was thinking about looking into some 40k math to see if anyone did some good models. My phone must be reading my mind, because I'm pretty sure I didn't think it out loud.
Love love love LOVE this kind of content. I’ve been running 3 man Eradicators for a while now, but they NEVER do anything… but everyone says how great they are…? Your video on them really made a ton of sense and broke down how truly swingy they are. After I saw that video I immediately went to your channel to binge it all, but that was the only video at the time….. lol. Keep up the great work! Can’t wait for more.
Thank you so much for the encouragement... I've been sitting on this forever because tbh I didn't think people would be that interested. I only started this because people have been so supportive.
@ I think getting THIS in depth into the math and diving into several situations is a really good niche for you to really dive into. 20k views on your 3rd ever video is AMAZING!
I’m so glad you like it. I really care a lot about making math more approachable. If there is anything you would like to see or if you feel like I’m not quite hitting the mark let me know…. This is definitely a different presentation style than I have been used to.
Super captain with assault int is used a a trading missile, the points cost to damage increase is so marginal as you noted. The best part is that you can put them in an impulsor, which he's the extra 3". I dont do this but you can also add sang priest for the extra ap, but not really worth imo. You mention the 10 man usually being better as you want to optimise buffs but I think optimal is very dependant on which variables you're trying to optimise. Absaloutely love this so far. Cant wait to see more vids.
the only unit that is in the same ballpark of toughness would be the deathwing knights. They are not as impressive in utility but their whole statline and total 20 wounds at 250 points with the -1 damage is rough. Their whole personna is wall on the battlefield. Great video as usual
Ironically, mortarion is excellent at killing deathwing knights. 4 damage flat ignoring -1 damage. However, at only 5 attacks, he's probably only gonna kill 2 or 3.
So the time I killed Morty was a lot of shots, if I remember cloud of flies was applied but the buffs I had was, Lethal hits aura, dread with the iron storm strat, oath, dread with tech marine blessing, Repulsar executioner with tech marine, (dreads plasma, executioner all the guns and laser destroyer) storm speeder hammer strike, and the sustained Hits on my repulsar. All in all the dreads did like 6 or 8 to him and the repulser finished him off (I got really lucky but I wonder what the damage potential of that combo is lol)
Really curious how the math on t1 changes if you decide to reroll a damage roll on a big gun once you hit, since it might stabilize expected damage a bit higher up.
Also wonder what help a sanguinary priest (+1 ap) would do to help the damage of a 10 man squad of assault intercessors, since you're tossing on the strat and the +1 ap might as well get the damage.
It was great, good luck to future uploads! As a necron player I would love to see some necron math in the future, given that my beloved egyptian space robots are one of the most played factions it might be valuable for the channel reach, viewcount and interactions too. I'm pretty new to the game but last time I managed to get a decent math on Mortarion with Hyperphase 20 Necron Warriors using the Gauss reaper, a Plasmancer with the reroll hits enhancement and Illuminor Szeraz standing close by to utilize his -1AP aura. It's a sh*t ton of points to take Mortarion down, but the 40 lethal hit shots on 5+ with rerolls fishing and the plasmancer attack + his mortal wound ability were able to damage him quite well. Irl I ended up punching below the expected dmg but the second round of shooting killed him.
just stumbled on your channel, thought "oh, just 1,3k subs?...oh, they just started out 2 weeks ago..." CRAZY good content quality and as a failure in maths (in school, mind you), this is awesome to watch. playing 40k for almost 6 months now and i always look deeper into the opposite units and what they possible could do (not min-maxing, i hate that) and compare it with my 'nids. love the videos, cant wait for more! you dont have to do it, since there are already many other requests out there, but would love to see the "mortality" of the Norn Emissary. ive played against 5 different factions so far (Ultramarines, Blood Angles, CSM, Orcs and Thousand Sons) and a bunch of battles against Ultramarines, since my brother plays them. except the thousand sons player, that absolutly demolished me, no one else even thought about the Norn. they activle went out of his way, even though he was just sitting on his objectiv. so i actually only saw him in action once, and that was, when he was battleshocked and swarmed by rubrics. he held out pretty well, except for my bad saving throws. had a Psychophage behind him, to give him a FNP 6+. with a 11T , 16W , 2Sv + 4+ invuln. and a FNP 4+ against mortal wounds. the blood angle player even sighed, when i put him on the board. he never attacked him, except overwatch him, which failed. Mortarion is tough and for 300 points, absolutly unbeatable. my combo is 370, which is still cheap for a good OC grouping, especially if its a 2k battle, thats when the board gets flooded by bugs.
Thank you so much. Yeah we’re just getting started. Still trying to figure a bunch of things out, I’m really touched by all the support. Frankly I feel like the flavor of the game is more important than the math. I personally feel like the math should be used to help you build intuition and then only dragged out in crucial moments. I love the nids, I’ve wanted to play them since I saw starship troopers as a kid…. Loooove the hive mind concept (also I almost went into entomology since I love bugs so much :) I’ve not faced this combo yet. I’ll try to get to it as soon as I can…. But yeah… a lot more requests so far than I was anticipating. I was literally expecting maybe dozens of views on these videos.
I played against DG with my BT two weeks ago and it turns out Grimaldus and 20 crusaders can definitely kill him in one round of combat! Grimaldus didn't even get to make his own attacks. 75 AP -2 chainsword and 12 power fist attacks hitting on 3s rerolling, with sustained hits and anti-psyker 4+, were just too much for him! Edit: I also wouldn't want to be Mortarion on the receiving end of Helbrecht and Sword brothers, regardless of the Oath they're using! That's potentially re-rolling hits, sustained and lethals on 5s, anti-psyker 4+, and a boatload of D2 and D3 attacks, plus Helbrecht making either 6 D4 attacks or 12 D12 attacks and doing mortal wounds on a 2+
So my basic theorycrafting that the only thing only Death Guard back from a near 70% win rate is that DG players just know how to play correctly is spot on. Learning how to make a fucking screen is the only thing stopping them from being more overpowered than even Eldar were (though for all my hatred towards Eldar players, they usually know to play their armies quite well.)
Fun Video! I myself use an excelfile I built to do the Mathhammer! You should do the simulations on a C'tan shard of the Deceiver. Also a tough cookie to crack! Both against Mortarion and the C'tan ignores modifiers really helps!
Except Mortarion isn't there to be a combat monster... he's there to be the force multipler in the game while simultaneously being an obscenely good tank. His damage output is just a bonus and a fairly big one at 300 points when the Lord Solar Command blob runs around 225 points. If Death Guard players actually learn how to use him better then their winrate should easily spike to well above 60% after the massive buffs they got between his & the terminators points decrease.
@@nationalsocialism3504 I do agree with this, however it is kind of important to consider that since mortys release he has had decent combat. It will be hard for the players to adapt to it. Personally the only time I did play with him was during the period where indirect wasn't nerfed. I didn't feel really good just playing him as a pbc sitter. Now I feel like its better to something like rotigus.
@wolfstormminatures1504 my point is that he is a Second Line fighter which is still way stronger then the Lord Solar Command blob which was always a backfield unit. Letting him get charged by assualt units is just piss poor play especially since he has a giant base and gives the buffs out within 6" that includes the area in front of him. Hence why DG would be nearly a 70% winrate faction if DG players knew what they were doing (which to be fair considering how hardheaded IG players are that rhey keep it a sub 50% winrate faction while simultaneously winning Super GTs means that i can't talk too much shit on them for.)
@@nationalsocialism3504 yes and I agree, all I am saying is that it might take a while for dg players to learn how to use him (me included) because for a very long time he wasn't a force multiplier and it can be difficult to adapt
I would just say, and that's before actually watching the video, that I took Morty to 1 wound with a charge of a squad of 5 assault intercessors, blood angels captain (with all of the sustained, mortal combo), and a sang priest, and I rolled really really bad.
I would love to see a sternguard veteran, gladius or the new librarius conclave detachment sternguard seem to have some funky combos with the new ability and oath update.
You missed the fact that Death Guard can apply -1 Ballistic & Weapon Skill stacked with -1 to melee hits by choosing the Skullsquirm Blight from the detachment aura as well as having a 40 point Nurgling unit within 6 inches. I would reckon that would skew things a good bit towards Mortarion’s favor. Also, Death Guard have a stratagem that can heal Morty 3 wounds if you fail to kill him in one turn which makes this even more challenging. lol Loved the video! Keep it up!
I will never in a million years worry about mathhammer when I'm playing. I just played a game against Deathguard this past Saturday, and my ultramarines down Morty in a single shooting phase. Hellblasters with a lieutenant and a plus 1 to wound from anvil hit like a dump truck no matter how big the enemy Primarch is
i love how many ways you can choose to play warhammer! the mathhammer isnt for everyone and yet we can all still enjoy such a beautiful and fun game together
I never had a game where i had a problem killing morty, since the -damage from 9th is gone and lethal hits and dev wounds being in 10th he is a vulnerable as any other Monster that relies on invulns.
Other people have pointed out that he ignores bracketing, which is true. But he can also become even tankier if the DG player selects the Skullsquirm Blight Contagion. Anyone affected by this will have their BS/WS modified by -1, which can stack with the -1 to hit from cloud of flies for a total -2!
The important part you've missed: nowdays you almost certainly take -1ws/bs aura against melee armies. Against Blood Angels and Orks for sure. Posibly - against Eldars as well. Another big buff: Place Morty near Nurglings. Especcially if he is chargable turn 1
My play against mortarion (or massive knight-esque stuff) would probably be the following (BA player): start with OOM Follow up with Land raider going full tilt (hopefully in melta range) Then it's a gladiator lancer for it's rerolls on the chonky las gun, sometimes there'd be ballistus to start of shooting as well. That's all my AT shooting, in melee it'd usually be the following: BA captain with enhancement, a sanguinary priest (sweet +1 ap) and 10 assault intercessors (1 power fist, 10 chainsword). This is also where I'd use the captains ability for lance + lethal hits for free. In some rare circumstances I might be able to sink a charge from another angle with Dante and 6 sang guard. It is also important to note that I am not usually going to be trying to blast mortarion of the table T1, instead opting to shoot my AT (the ballistus and lancer) at him T1, but otherwise playing cagy to get some chip wounds in. This does mean you may have to contend with disgusting resilience, but I feel somewhat confident that the AT shooting without oath can land enough chip T1 to where the AT shooting + land raider + oath can really hurt him T2. If the opponent decides to use flies on both turns the damage will fall, but it also means they probably won't have cp for disgusting resilience, unless they're not spending it on anything else (no rapid ingress, no rerolls makes death guard pretty slow and no support for other units that have to contend with what is roughly 800 points of angry angels makes other models pretty squishy). Key is that you get to stage on that first turn, so you're not wasting too much opportunity, since you should be set for a big T2 or 3 w/ rapid ingress.
As a math nerd, this was amazing. I absolutely adore the math and the banter. And as a fellow handlebar enthusiast...consider me subbed and following. If you packaged up a iOS/android app calculator, it would definitely be worth a purchase. ;)
BA Captain with Rage fuelled warrior, a squad of assault intercessors and a Sanguinary priest with Red Rampage, which is a 255p combo and 1 CP kills just about everything in the game. Mortarion included.
Could you do this for the Shard of the void dragon? I think that would be really interesting. So,what similar to Mortarion, but you also have to add in necrodermis and regeneration protocols!
Awesome channel, I also play blood angels. I am playing comps etc and love the math aspect, I was wondering if you could look at the sang guard with Dante, see what their output looks like into different targets. I have been piling then in to other units which has been great but I usually overkill things. It'd be great to see what my optimal targets are output wise. Typically in 9th we could trade up very easily but this brick is so expensive I find it harder to use with msu armies or those that didn't have an obvious target or two together
that means the world to us, thank you for helping us out in the early days! we are working hard to get more vids ready for yall! give us a shout out if there is content your play group would specifically like to see!!!! @dannytran2134
My experience as a tyranid player: shoot with Exocrene to get reroll 1s, shoot with Tyranofex rupture canon: Morty is dead. It is very swingy since it is only 2 shots, but if he fails both saves he is dead. If you try this, do every other shooting beforehand so he can waste is CP reroll.
Great analysis - though for the sake of transparency, as it was mentioned earlier with the captain and warboss, it is probably worth including points costs as well as a comparison (albeit at the time with how frequently points values can change etc), as I would imagine the Avatar of Khaine, Fire Dragons and Boat already cost more than Mortarion does - let alone adding in the means to get 4 more Bright Lances to make it 80% etc. As it turns it into a "is it worth expending this % of my forces to deal with this problem?"
This is great! Could you do death company with astorath and blood angels captain with assault intercessors into c'tan shards. They are my personal nemesis.
New player rules question. @7:56 it's mentioned Morty can "just leave cause he flies" Google Fu says in earlier editions you could Fall Back and Shoot if you had Fly, but I'm not finding the relevance here on searches. I know you can force a Desperate Escape for non-Fly units by surrounding, is that the point he's getting at that he cannot be locked to surround? Thanks!
Exactly. Because he has fly be can just fall back over your unit, possibly even pushing forward and you can’t force a desperate escape…. Which is painfully risky on a big model like that.
Geez. Mortarion feels firmly in the "don't poke until you can confirm the kill" territory. Let him score with it and pick apart everything else in the meantime I say! -Fledgling Green Tide Player
Hi Gents, cracking video! I would love to see how Ulric and 10 wolf Guard (Space Wolves) stack up against Morti, Ulric's ability is pretty spicy and we can get sustained hits and lethal hits.
Love the content! I do Kill Team instead of 40K, but bless the algorithm for suggesting this channel. However... Beast boss, in Waaagh! using beast choppy = less than one in a million? Equals zero? Unsatisfying content! The exact answer is knowable, and how much cooler would it be to say the odds are one in 3.72 million (e.g. a thousand times more likely than C-3PO's calculated trip through an asteroid field, or half as likely as you are to win the Power Ball?) The mob demands precision!
Yeah… but the more zeros I add the longer it takes. Sometimes it literally takes my computer over a minute to run a complicated simulation. One more digit of precision takes at least 10x as long. Crazy how fast it adds up. :( bet a can afford a fast computer if I get enough shares ;)
ive killed him with a repulsor, hellblasters that had an lt. with fire disicpline attached and icc with azrael charging him in the next turn. volume of attacks with sustained and lethal hits + full hit rerolls is kinda the only chance you have against such a target. normally either of the units, so hellblasters with sus/lethal or icc with the same take down almost anything i throw them into or at least leave them so damaged that theyre an easy target after that. i love these actual mathematical breakdowns you do since it really helps newer players like me who havent played against all armies or their big threat yet. with knowledge like this its waaaay easier to make good plays in the future
The ten man HB squad with FD completely melts anything it looks at. I think avatar of Kane, and a squigoth are the only things that have needed a second round of shooting
My buddy took out my Mortarion w his dark angels. Pretty much emptied all his tank and dread cannons over 2 turns to do it. I won the game on points, but he DID manage to bring down the big guy.
Absolutely love what you're doing here, and since Eldar was brought up, I do have to ask: I've experienced that 10 Wraithguard with a Spiritseer under the Fortune ability of a Farseer is stupidly difficult to take out. Outranging is the best option, but that's quite difficult to do sometimes. I'm primarily Ad Mech and generic Marines (for all the good that does), but what do you think are the best ways to take out Wraithguard with -1 to Wound?
One thing that has popped up in personal research are Kataphron Breachers w/ Heavy Arc Rifles led by a Manipulus in the Rad Zone Corps detachment so they can use the Peerless Eradicator enhancement. As a whole, that's six guns with Lethal Hits + Sustained Hits 1 from the Leader on 2 shots (4 if RF) hitting on 2+ if stationary in Protector Imperative, 8 S, -2 AP and 3 D.
Something I don't think was mentioned here (at least I didn't catch it), the deathguard aura that reduces WS/BS by -1. Whenever I play against deathguard it is always the most obnoxious part.
Here is one you can test against morty. A Paladin squad with Captain Stern. If enough cp you can give them devestating wounds, but the Desperados idea is to hope for sixes, as Sterns ability gives you 1 mortal wound for each critical hit. If you also have a dreadnought nearby you can reroll ones. Not the most reliable but funny 😂
And what about 10 sword brethern, Hellbrecht and a lieutenant in oom, 1pc for +1 ap and +1 strenght in the right setup (they rise to S7 for aml the sword which is great for the 12T)
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Ok, but how many Fire Warriors would it take to kill Morty in melee 80% of the time? (And what would the cost of said army be?)
lol…. Very roughly… 16(wounds)*6(save roll)*6(wound roll)*3(hitting on 5’s)*1(attacks per model)*140%(roughly the overkill trend we found in the video… though I don’t know if that holds, but we’ll use it as an estimate)~3629 fire warriors ~27,225pts…. But I think it would be REALLY hard to get them all in engagement range!
Jokes on you, Morty ignores being bracketed
I recently picked up DG and when my friends and I discovered this we were like WHAT!?
right?!? honestly, I'm scratching my head. If he can't be bracketed, why put a bracket on his datasheet?
So they can laugh at us mortals trying to mess with Morty
I suppose you could maybe turn off his aura with something and that would let him get bracketed
@@kingdragune123 Ah! Thank you so much! That was driving me bizzonkers!
Love to see simulation based math rather than the average based off of one activation, extremely happy to see it being put out so swings can be seen instead of just a flat expected value
Exactly! I’m so happy this is resonating with people.
Exactly!!!
Morty's Lord Of The Deathguard Aura ignores his own bracketing
Any way you can turn that off on him?
@mobilegamersunite I don't think there is. It's in his abilities not his Host of Plagues and so they stack together(so long as you choose a HoP at the top of each round)
What a gem this channel is!
Oh wow that’s so flattering! You rock we will keep working hard on producing more great videos for the community!!
You guys are really becoming one of my favourite 40k channels, keep it up fellas! Love the production work
Thank you swift!! We will keep trying to make the best videos possible and bringing better info and data to the math-hammer community!!
I anticipate this channel will be blowing up shortly. Loving the content my dude. ALso you have a great stache.
Well thanks, you are sweet as a Georgia peach!
These are great! I have been away the tabletop for a few years but these deep dives are giving me the itch roll some dice.
The dice are calling… will you heed the call?
I love this game. Honestly I wish I had more time to play it.
Amazing video, great editing, live your and the co-hosts energy.
Small note for the co-host and yourself, devastating wounds are now mortal wounds, so FNP works against them
Thank you, that feedback is super helpful!! Keep letting us know if you find little blips like that so we can make the best content possible for you guys!!
It’d be interesting to see how a C’Tan (namely the nightbringer) would match up against mortarion - similar points cost and a lot of similarities. Nightbringer in particular has a 4+ invul, 5+ FNP, halves all incoming attack damage, and reanimates D3 per turn (3d3 if you have a reanimator and Technomancer within 6”). I doubt either would die in the first turn but it would be interesting to see who’d have the edge in a one on one and with various supports.
My day job is in quantitative research and studied math in undergrad so I’ve day dreamed about writing my own sims - it’s cool to see someone else doing it!
If the question is ever "Nightbringer vs blank" it's always Nightbringer.
Morty doesn't care aboute the halving dmg, he ignores all characteristics modifiers
@@sanerog8727 It's not about halving the damage, its about ctan being able to heal every turn and the nightbringers devastating wounds to bypass the invul save.
Morty does flat 4 damage, even if you just roll average for reanimation protocol you'll be healing for 2 which basically cuts morty's damage in half anyways.
@@pwn3dg4m3r Morty laughs at C'Tan as he ignores all modifiers. If morty is supported by anything the C'tan is toast.
Hey, Black Templars player here. Check the math on the "kill a titan in one go" combo, ala Sword Brethren with Helbrecht and a Lieutenant. The damage they output is insane, mine have cracked countless tough as nails targets (and even multiple different tough targets) in a single go. Five or ten, its a truly nasty combo to slap just about anyone in the face with
Seems a popular suggestion, I may have to look into this one.
Never found mathing warhammer too exciting but you guys hit the spot, feels fun and exploring just the right amount of "what if". Really enjoying the content!
Give me a Knight Castellan, and Lay Low the Tyrants, and I'll give you a Dead Morty.
Love this new way to look at math-hammer, great production quality as well! Keep up the great work
thanks @paddydunford1475 that means the world to us! we are trying really really hard to produce something that will benefit the math-hammer community!
Dude this is only your third video! Great work, keep it up!
Loving the content! Keep posting consistent your gonna blow up man, tonnes of talent
Thank you we are trying really hard to keep putting out high quality vids for y’all!!
Lowkey shout out to Urien Rakarth which is only 5 wound character but crazy resilient for 80pts. 4++ and 4+++ and comes back on 2+! Plus -1 wound strat, which is extra great when he can bring back D3 body guards per turn.
Comment for the algorithm!
Love your channel already
This has to be the most underrated canal ever very informative and fun 10/10 hope you make it big
Mate, insane work on the videos, you guys are quickly becoming a fav! I'd love to see the Good old guard featured here as well at some point, Feels like theres a lot of potential there!
Got any specifics? Love looking at tanks.
that feels good to hear, it takes a lot of work to make high quality vids so thanks for the recognition!
@@warphammer-math Maybe Rogal Dorn? That thing is a walking arsenal and whenever i use it, i feel like im dishing out a toooon fo damage! Maybe comparing Leman Russ variations is an option as well!
Great idea
If you have an opportunity, I'd like to see how two 10-man squads of Fulgarite Electropriests do charging into him with Data-psalm Conclave, led by a Tech-Priest Dominus (one with Temporcopia and one with Data-blessed Autosermon) and the appropriate Benedictions (Citation in Savagery) and Doctrines (Conqueror Imperative, plus a stratagem 'Chant of the Remorseless Fist.')
Sternguard Veterans with a Librarian with the Fusillade enhancement from the Librarius Conclave Detachment kill him pretty easily if he's your Oath of Moment target. And if you worried that you will not down him with just shooting you can grenade him twice; once with actual grenade and second with Assail from the detachment. 280 points to kill a 300 point threat isn't terrible.
This is awesome, thank you!
For Eldar, one of the best combos I can think of against something like Mortarion or a C'Tan is a unit of harlequins with a troupe leader charging from a falcon, throwing grenades, shooting from Melta range, and using tank shock from the falcon. Ideally supported by a unit of warp spiders shooting as well.
I LOVE harlequins. I don’t have any yet though. I’m slightly intimidated to paint them…. But really want to play with them. I def have to look into that.
Also you might consider things like grenades, hammer of wrath, tank shock against templates like mortarion, or the avatar. IT is fun because it is way around math, just like dev.
Would love to see how Magnus does on average in the shooting phase against Morty. I was playing Tsons the other day against a friend and I just shot Morty off the board, first turn. My friend and I were both very surprised. I did spend a cp for DEVASTATING SORCERY, and in edition all of my shots had dev wounds. It was glorious!!
Astrorath with Deathcompany and red rampage seems to be my answer to any of these questions after finding this channel
Amazing video, guys! Love your use of stats and maths
Another totally awesome video! I hadn't realized Mortarian was such a tough nut to crack.
Can you do a video on the necron C'Tan? T11, 12 wounds, 4+armor, 4+ invulnerable, 5+ feel no pain, and halves all damage rounding up. And the C'Tan Deciever has stealth on top of all of that. The other shards do not have stealth.
I really wanna do some necrons soon!
Recently got back into the hobby. Just today I was thinking about looking into some 40k math to see if anyone did some good models. My phone must be reading my mind, because I'm pretty sure I didn't think it out loud.
Love love love LOVE this kind of content. I’ve been running 3 man Eradicators for a while now, but they NEVER do anything… but everyone says how great they are…? Your video on them really made a ton of sense and broke down how truly swingy they are. After I saw that video I immediately went to your channel to binge it all, but that was the only video at the time….. lol. Keep up the great work! Can’t wait for more.
Thank you so much for the encouragement... I've been sitting on this forever because tbh I didn't think people would be that interested. I only started this because people have been so supportive.
dont worry @peach1389 we are working on creating more high quality videos! hang with us its gonna be a wild ride!!
@ I think getting THIS in depth into the math and diving into several situations is a really good niche for you to really dive into. 20k views on your 3rd ever video is AMAZING!
Just discovered this channel and wow! I’m bad at math but you break things down in a very digestible way! Thank the algorithm!
I’m so glad you like it. I really care a lot about making math more approachable. If there is anything you would like to see or if you feel like I’m not quite hitting the mark let me know…. This is definitely a different presentation style than I have been used to.
A chaos knight rampager seems to kill my Morty pretty consistently….
Maby see if big e will kill mortarions oppressor again
Super captain with assault int is used a a trading missile, the points cost to damage increase is so marginal as you noted.
The best part is that you can put them in an impulsor, which he's the extra 3".
I dont do this but you can also add sang priest for the extra ap, but not really worth imo.
You mention the 10 man usually being better as you want to optimise buffs but I think optimal is very dependant on which variables you're trying to optimise.
Absaloutely love this so far. Cant wait to see more vids.
the only unit that is in the same ballpark of toughness would be the deathwing knights. They are not as impressive in utility but their whole statline and total 20 wounds at 250 points with the -1 damage is rough. Their whole personna is wall on the battlefield. Great video as usual
thanks for the feedback, we're gonna keep trying to up the production value as the bold arrow of time moves on!
Ironically, mortarion is excellent at killing deathwing knights. 4 damage flat ignoring -1 damage. However, at only 5 attacks, he's probably only gonna kill 2 or 3.
I love how you behave, and the math excited aptitude. Good work. Do you want to search possibilities for the Hellbrecht SB combo?
So the time I killed Morty was a lot of shots, if I remember cloud of flies was applied but the buffs I had was, Lethal hits aura, dread with the iron storm strat, oath, dread with tech marine blessing, Repulsar executioner with tech marine, (dreads plasma, executioner all the guns and laser destroyer) storm speeder hammer strike, and the sustained Hits on my repulsar. All in all the dreads did like 6 or 8 to him and the repulser finished him off (I got really lucky but I wonder what the damage potential of that combo is lol)
Step 1 field devilfish
Step 2 Equip railgun
Step 3 GOODBYE MORTY
More videos please. Not even for gaming, for entertainment. I'm a teacher from Germany, and I approve your content ;D
I’m so glad you liked it! Thank you for the encouragement. So glad to hear from another teacher.
Really curious how the math on t1 changes if you decide to reroll a damage roll on a big gun once you hit, since it might stabilize expected damage a bit higher up.
Also wonder what help a sanguinary priest (+1 ap) would do to help the damage of a 10 man squad of assault intercessors, since you're tossing on the strat and the +1 ap might as well get the damage.
This is dope! Would love to see more primarchs
It was great, good luck to future uploads! As a necron player I would love to see some necron math in the future, given that my beloved egyptian space robots are one of the most played factions it might be valuable for the channel reach, viewcount and interactions too. I'm pretty new to the game but last time I managed to get a decent math on Mortarion with Hyperphase 20 Necron Warriors using the Gauss reaper, a Plasmancer with the reroll hits enhancement and Illuminor Szeraz standing close by to utilize his -1AP aura. It's a sh*t ton of points to take Mortarion down, but the 40 lethal hit shots on 5+ with rerolls fishing and the plasmancer attack + his mortal wound ability were able to damage him quite well. Irl I ended up punching below the expected dmg but the second round of shooting killed him.
Necrons will definitely be coming up soon.
Haven't played Warhammer 40k in probably 20 years, but love this vid, and the math
I like your presentation. That voice in the background...*Chef's kiss*
just stumbled on your channel, thought "oh, just 1,3k subs?...oh, they just started out 2 weeks ago..." CRAZY good content quality and as a failure in maths (in school, mind you), this is awesome to watch. playing 40k for almost 6 months now and i always look deeper into the opposite units and what they possible could do (not min-maxing, i hate that) and compare it with my 'nids.
love the videos, cant wait for more!
you dont have to do it, since there are already many other requests out there, but would love to see the "mortality" of the Norn Emissary. ive played against 5 different factions so far (Ultramarines, Blood Angles, CSM, Orcs and Thousand Sons) and a bunch of battles against Ultramarines, since my brother plays them. except the thousand sons player, that absolutly demolished me, no one else even thought about the Norn. they activle went out of his way, even though he was just sitting on his objectiv. so i actually only saw him in action once, and that was, when he was battleshocked and swarmed by rubrics. he held out pretty well, except for my bad saving throws. had a Psychophage behind him, to give him a FNP 6+. with a 11T , 16W , 2Sv + 4+ invuln. and a FNP 4+ against mortal wounds.
the blood angle player even sighed, when i put him on the board. he never attacked him, except overwatch him, which failed. Mortarion is tough and for 300 points, absolutly unbeatable. my combo is 370, which is still cheap for a good OC grouping, especially if its a 2k battle, thats when the board gets flooded by bugs.
Thank you so much. Yeah we’re just getting started. Still trying to figure a bunch of things out, I’m really touched by all the support. Frankly I feel like the flavor of the game is more important than the math. I personally feel like the math should be used to help you build intuition and then only dragged out in crucial moments. I love the nids, I’ve wanted to play them since I saw starship troopers as a kid…. Loooove the hive mind concept (also I almost went into entomology since I love bugs so much :) I’ve not faced this combo yet. I’ll try to get to it as soon as I can…. But yeah… a lot more requests so far than I was anticipating. I was literally expecting maybe dozens of views on these videos.
love this channel
I played against DG with my BT two weeks ago and it turns out Grimaldus and 20 crusaders can definitely kill him in one round of combat! Grimaldus didn't even get to make his own attacks.
75 AP -2 chainsword and 12 power fist attacks hitting on 3s rerolling, with sustained hits and anti-psyker 4+, were just too much for him!
Edit: I also wouldn't want to be Mortarion on the receiving end of Helbrecht and Sword brothers, regardless of the Oath they're using! That's potentially re-rolling hits, sustained and lethals on 5s, anti-psyker 4+, and a boatload of D2 and D3 attacks, plus Helbrecht making either 6 D4 attacks or 12 D12 attacks and doing mortal wounds on a 2+
So my basic theorycrafting that the only thing only Death Guard back from a near 70% win rate is that DG players just know how to play correctly is spot on. Learning how to make a fucking screen is the only thing stopping them from being more overpowered than even Eldar were (though for all my hatred towards Eldar players, they usually know to play their armies quite well.)
Love the maths! Please keep them coming!
love it, hope to see some info on custodes in the future
Well edited and entertaining! Best of luck for your channel mate.
This guy buys his shirts at Dan Flash’s for sure
The price is based on how complicated the patterns are
Actually, a really nice neighbor makes them for me. She’s so sweet!
@@warphammer-mathOh my goodness that's amazing!!
I wish I could even begin to fathom the math program you wrote to do this. I have so many things I want to test now.
One day I can release it, I’m just not sophisticated enough to build the front end on my own. We’ll get there.
Guys it doesn't matter if you bracket Morty, he ignores modifiers to characteristics thus bracketing him does nothing!
It reduces his objective control, doesn't it?
It just give him minus one to his attack rolls which he ignores with Lord of the Death Guard ability, as he’s always within 6 inches of himself.
@@Zabzim good points Zabzim, thanks for sharing
How about two Gladiator Lancers in Ironstorm Detachment with Oath of the moment into Morty? Great video!
When is the next video?!? These are top notch. Keep up the good work.
Got kinda side tracked with family stuff. But the next vid will come out in a day or two at the most. Thank you for the support!
I didn't know I needed math hammer in my life but now I do.
Fun Video! I myself use an excelfile I built to do the Mathhammer! You should do the simulations on a C'tan shard of the Deceiver. Also a tough cookie to crack! Both against Mortarion and the C'tan ignores modifiers really helps!
Mortarian hits like a wet noodle. He is about as strong in melee as 1 exalted 8bound lol.
He hits way less harder than that, he couldn't kill 5 primaris marines on his own :(
Except Mortarion isn't there to be a combat monster... he's there to be the force multipler in the game while simultaneously being an obscenely good tank. His damage output is just a bonus and a fairly big one at 300 points when the Lord Solar Command blob runs around 225 points. If Death Guard players actually learn how to use him better then their winrate should easily spike to well above 60% after the massive buffs they got between his & the terminators points decrease.
@@nationalsocialism3504 I do agree with this, however it is kind of important to consider that since mortys release he has had decent combat. It will be hard for the players to adapt to it. Personally the only time I did play with him was during the period where indirect wasn't nerfed. I didn't feel really good just playing him as a pbc sitter. Now I feel like its better to something like rotigus.
@wolfstormminatures1504 my point is that he is a Second Line fighter which is still way stronger then the Lord Solar Command blob which was always a backfield unit. Letting him get charged by assualt units is just piss poor play especially since he has a giant base and gives the buffs out within 6" that includes the area in front of him. Hence why DG would be nearly a 70% winrate faction if DG players knew what they were doing (which to be fair considering how hardheaded IG players are that rhey keep it a sub 50% winrate faction while simultaneously winning Super GTs means that i can't talk too much shit on them for.)
@@nationalsocialism3504 yes and I agree, all I am saying is that it might take a while for dg players to learn how to use him (me included) because for a very long time he wasn't a force multiplier and it can be difficult to adapt
I would just say, and that's before actually watching the video, that I took Morty to 1 wound with a charge of a squad of 5 assault intercessors, blood angels captain (with all of the sustained, mortal combo), and a sang priest, and I rolled really really bad.
I would love to see a sternguard veteran, gladius or the new librarius conclave detachment sternguard seem to have some funky combos with the new ability and oath update.
You missed the fact that Death Guard can apply -1 Ballistic & Weapon Skill stacked with -1 to melee hits by choosing the Skullsquirm Blight from the detachment aura as well as having a 40 point Nurgling unit within 6 inches. I would reckon that would skew things a good bit towards Mortarion’s favor. Also, Death Guard have a stratagem that can heal Morty 3 wounds if you fail to kill him in one turn which makes this even more challenging. lol
Loved the video! Keep it up!
Kaldor Draigo, and Voldus make Mortarian rethink his choices
I will never in a million years worry about mathhammer when I'm playing. I just played a game against Deathguard this past Saturday, and my ultramarines down Morty in a single shooting phase. Hellblasters with a lieutenant and a plus 1 to wound from anvil hit like a dump truck no matter how big the enemy Primarch is
i love how many ways you can choose to play warhammer! the mathhammer isnt for everyone and yet we can all still enjoy such a beautiful and fun game together
I’ve gotten Morty down to 3 wounds on a overwatch before. God I love ad mech shooting
I wish 40k morty hit as hard as HH morty
Lads, love the math and want more matchups!! Keep up the work you dicey fiends
thanks @bighanku appreciate the support!! we will keep at it!!
Great channel and video!
I never had a game where i had a problem killing morty, since the -damage from 9th is gone and lethal hits and dev wounds being in 10th he is a vulnerable as any other Monster that relies on invulns.
Other people have pointed out that he ignores bracketing, which is true. But he can also become even tankier if the DG player selects the Skullsquirm Blight Contagion. Anyone affected by this will have their BS/WS modified by -1, which can stack with the -1 to hit from cloud of flies for a total -2!
Also can deploy Nurglings within 6" for -1 to hit
Summary: Man with the desire to single round kill everything versus the leader of faction to deny said desire.
can you do a video like this on the ctan shards? they also seem unkillable with my space marine army
Live for this kinda math
The important part you've missed: nowdays you almost certainly take -1ws/bs aura against melee armies. Against Blood Angels and Orks for sure. Posibly - against Eldars as well. Another big buff: Place Morty near Nurglings. Especcially if he is chargable turn 1
My play against mortarion (or massive knight-esque stuff) would probably be the following (BA player):
start with OOM
Follow up with Land raider going full tilt (hopefully in melta range)
Then it's a gladiator lancer for it's rerolls on the chonky las gun, sometimes there'd be ballistus to start of shooting as well.
That's all my AT shooting, in melee it'd usually be the following:
BA captain with enhancement, a sanguinary priest (sweet +1 ap) and 10 assault intercessors (1 power fist, 10 chainsword). This is also where I'd use the captains ability for lance + lethal hits for free.
In some rare circumstances I might be able to sink a charge from another angle with Dante and 6 sang guard.
It is also important to note that I am not usually going to be trying to blast mortarion of the table T1, instead opting to shoot my AT (the ballistus and lancer) at him T1, but otherwise playing cagy to get some chip wounds in. This does mean you may have to contend with disgusting resilience, but I feel somewhat confident that the AT shooting without oath can land enough chip T1 to where the AT shooting + land raider + oath can really hurt him T2. If the opponent decides to use flies on both turns the damage will fall, but it also means they probably won't have cp for disgusting resilience, unless they're not spending it on anything else (no rapid ingress, no rerolls makes death guard pretty slow and no support for other units that have to contend with what is roughly 800 points of angry angels makes other models pretty squishy).
Key is that you get to stage on that first turn, so you're not wasting too much opportunity, since you should be set for a big T2 or 3 w/ rapid ingress.
Ever have an entire Imperial Knight Paladin be killed in a single turn of combat with Mortarion? My brother has when he tried to charge Morty.
As a math nerd, this was amazing. I absolutely adore the math and the banter. And as a fellow handlebar enthusiast...consider me subbed and following. If you packaged up a iOS/android app calculator, it would definitely be worth a purchase. ;)
BA Captain with Rage fuelled warrior, a squad of assault intercessors and a Sanguinary priest with Red Rampage, which is a 255p combo and 1 CP kills just about everything in the game. Mortarion included.
Could you do this for the Shard of the void dragon? I think that would be really interesting. So,what similar to Mortarion, but you also have to add in necrodermis and regeneration protocols!
Awesome channel, I also play blood angels.
I am playing comps etc and love the math aspect, I was wondering if you could look at the sang guard with Dante, see what their output looks like into different targets.
I have been piling then in to other units which has been great but I usually overkill things.
It'd be great to see what my optimal targets are output wise.
Typically in 9th we could trade up very easily but this brick is so expensive I find it harder to use with msu armies or those that didn't have an obvious target or two together
I hear that. I will have to look into this.
Only been a week since you've launched, and you're doing well. Keep it up guys.
Edit: Also sharing your channel with my play group.
Yay, thank you!
that means the world to us, thank you for helping us out in the early days! we are working hard to get more vids ready for yall! give us a shout out if there is content your play group would specifically like to see!!!! @dannytran2134
My experience as a tyranid player: shoot with Exocrene to get reroll 1s, shoot with Tyranofex rupture canon: Morty is dead. It is very swingy since it is only 2 shots, but if he fails both saves he is dead. If you try this, do every other shooting beforehand so he can waste is CP reroll.
Great analysis - though for the sake of transparency, as it was mentioned earlier with the captain and warboss, it is probably worth including points costs as well as a comparison (albeit at the time with how frequently points values can change etc), as I would imagine the Avatar of Khaine, Fire Dragons and Boat already cost more than Mortarion does - let alone adding in the means to get 4 more Bright Lances to make it 80% etc. As it turns it into a "is it worth expending this % of my forces to deal with this problem?"
Too late to include that in the episodes already in production… but I think this is a really good idea.
This is great! Could you do death company with astorath and blood angels captain with assault intercessors into c'tan shards. They are my personal nemesis.
I would have love to see the odds of Kaldor Draigo with 5-10 terminators trying to down him, similar to the lore
New player rules question. @7:56 it's mentioned Morty can "just leave cause he flies"
Google Fu says in earlier editions you could Fall Back and Shoot if you had Fly, but I'm not finding the relevance here on searches. I know you can force a Desperate Escape for non-Fly units by surrounding, is that the point he's getting at that he cannot be locked to surround?
Thanks!
Exactly. Because he has fly be can just fall back over your unit, possibly even pushing forward and you can’t force a desperate escape…. Which is painfully risky on a big model like that.
Geez. Mortarion feels firmly in the "don't poke until you can confirm the kill" territory. Let him score with it and pick apart everything else in the meantime I say!
-Fledgling Green Tide Player
Hi Gents, cracking video! I would love to see how Ulric and 10 wolf Guard (Space Wolves) stack up against Morti, Ulric's ability is pretty spicy and we can get sustained hits and lethal hits.
Love the content! I do Kill Team instead of 40K, but bless the algorithm for suggesting this channel. However... Beast boss, in Waaagh! using beast choppy = less than one in a million? Equals zero? Unsatisfying content! The exact answer is knowable, and how much cooler would it be to say the odds are one in 3.72 million (e.g. a thousand times more likely than C-3PO's calculated trip through an asteroid field, or half as likely as you are to win the Power Ball?) The mob demands precision!
Yeah… but the more zeros I add the longer it takes. Sometimes it literally takes my computer over a minute to run a complicated simulation. One more digit of precision takes at least 10x as long. Crazy how fast it adds up. :( bet a can afford a fast computer if I get enough shares ;)
xD i love this idea. we should catalog a bunch of random popular probabilities like this and use them as compare/contrasts
ive killed him with a repulsor, hellblasters that had an lt. with fire disicpline attached and icc with azrael charging him in the next turn.
volume of attacks with sustained and lethal hits + full hit rerolls is kinda the only chance you have against such a target.
normally either of the units, so hellblasters with sus/lethal or icc with the same take down almost anything i throw them into or at least leave them so damaged that theyre an easy target after that.
i love these actual mathematical breakdowns you do since it really helps newer players like me who havent played against all armies or their big threat yet.
with knowledge like this its waaaay easier to make good plays in the future
The ten man HB squad with FD completely melts anything it looks at. I think avatar of Kane, and a squigoth are the only things that have needed a second round of shooting
Random memory, but once in eighth edition i denied Mortarian thrice with primaris psykers and astropaths. Fun memories.
My buddy took out my Mortarion w his dark angels. Pretty much emptied all his tank and dread cannons over 2 turns to do it. I won the game on points, but he DID manage to bring down the big guy.
Now I get why Nurgle likes the guy
Fired 2 beastbosses into Monty. He survived of course. At least I was able to lock him in for a couple of rounds
775 points of space elfs to kill 300 points of 1 stinky boi
Absolutely love what you're doing here, and since Eldar was brought up, I do have to ask: I've experienced that 10 Wraithguard with a Spiritseer under the Fortune ability of a Farseer is stupidly difficult to take out. Outranging is the best option, but that's quite difficult to do sometimes. I'm primarily Ad Mech and generic Marines (for all the good that does), but what do you think are the best ways to take out Wraithguard with -1 to Wound?
ok, I'm also super curious about wraithguard also. This is going on my short list.
One thing that has popped up in personal research are Kataphron Breachers w/ Heavy Arc Rifles led by a Manipulus in the Rad Zone Corps detachment so they can use the Peerless Eradicator enhancement.
As a whole, that's six guns with Lethal Hits + Sustained Hits 1 from the Leader on 2 shots (4 if RF) hitting on 2+ if stationary in Protector Imperative, 8 S, -2 AP and 3 D.
@@vivian-alexandrarivers897 really great ideas! thanks for sharing this is awesome
One could say he's....
Disgustingly Resilient?
Something I don't think was mentioned here (at least I didn't catch it), the deathguard aura that reduces WS/BS by -1. Whenever I play against deathguard it is always the most obnoxious part.
That is a very good point. Friggin Morty!
Here is one you can test against morty.
A Paladin squad with Captain Stern. If enough cp you can give them devestating wounds, but the Desperados idea is to hope for sixes, as Sterns ability gives you 1 mortal wound for each critical hit.
If you also have a dreadnought nearby you can reroll ones.
Not the most reliable but funny 😂
And what about 10 sword brethern, Hellbrecht and a lieutenant in oom, 1pc for +1 ap and +1 strenght in the right setup (they rise to S7 for aml the sword which is great for the 12T)
Super cool - would be curious how the actual calculations are done!
If people are interested, I would LOVE to dive more into the math!
Here's a suggestion: bring one shadow sword.
I love this. It is very entertaining and fun to see but I am a stats geek.