Jordan Peterson on How to Change | Doug Wilson
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- Опубликовано: 24 авг 2022
- In this episode of Doug Reacts, Pastor Doug Wilson reacts to a video from Jordan Peterson talking about judgment and change.
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Doug Reacts is an apologetics reaction series presented by Canon Press.
I would drain my bank account for tickets to see a discussion between Doug and JP
Me too this needs to happen I think it would be an awesome discussion. One that no doubt would leave my brain dripping from my ear. Both of these have their finger on the pulse of something true and meaningful.
And DW and JR
@@trevorjohnson6391 Agreed! I mean the fact that Peterson was on his own (humanly speaking) able to come to the conclusion that the Bible was the epistemological fountainhead of all literature and human predication on Joe Rogan is astounding. He's still got a VERY long way to go obviously, but as far as I can tell (forgive my presumption), he hasn't shown any evidence of having been exposed to any Bahnsen-esque old school Presuppositionalist thought, and I think Doug fits the perfect profile to engage him on these subjects. Could be very edifying for everyone involved, including Pastor Doug. Jordan Peterson has dialogued on relatively smaller platforms as well, so you never know!
@@kevinclark9587 I can only hope it happens. Both men are doing Gods work.
Jordan would instinctively do therapy on Doug in an effort to make Doug be the best he can be and Doug would instinctively try to convert Jordan.
Both are wonderful men. Still, I'm not sure this is a good idea.
Has anyone from Canon reached out to Jordan to ask if he would visit Moscow, Idaho?
First 5 seconds, "BY WHAT STANDARD!"
With people as heady as Peterson, it is often hard to remember how beautifully simple and obvious the truth is. Thank you, Doug, for pointing out that intellectual talk without a grounding is just that, talk.
These reaction videos might be the best thing Canon Press has ever done. Watching JP and Lex one day and watching Doug critique the exact same conversation two days later is really something.
I like these because it shows how Doug is beyond Jordan. Alot of us young men started at Jordan, realized God was the path and now we are desperately in need of guidance but dont realize Doug exists, its the perfect video to find if your newly coming out of left wing secular establishment
You're welcome. I'll be praying for you. Pray for me too.
@WDFT Same here... Peterson got me to take religion seriously, to pick up my Bible, etc. Now I find it hard to listen to him!
Wtf😂🤣😂🤣😂
@@darioferrari9794 sounds like your the one with the problem not Jordan Peterson.
@@ryanc1538 you sound like your in a cult
Ah! Uncle Dougie! So knowledgable, so wise, so gracious to boot. I.m not being the least bit sarcastic!! I can't stop myself clicking on your little ten minute videos with so much distilled into a few minutes, yet communicated in such an accessible way. Thank you Lord that you have renewed my mind to the degree that Doug is now the new clickbait for me. It is like when he makes sense to me and joins the dots and a light comes on in my brain there is actually a little bit of a dopamine hit there as well to make me wanna keep on weeding out those doctrines of demons that were allowed to grow across the garden of my mind for way too many years!
He's the one tethering me to reality right now.
Great stuff! I took a class or two at New Saint Andrews in 2006... Doug would have a bunch of students to his property and have a big cookout for everyone. Some great memories. Love what NSA and Canon Press 👍🙂
Your very last words summed it up...amen!
The constant attempt to build on sand.
Love these reaction videos Pastor Doug. Jordan Peterson has a huge body of work available on RUclips. Jordan's faith journey has evolved greatly recently, to the point where I would call him a believer. Reacting to "old" Jordan Peterson is fine on it's face, but adding some context with his newfound faith would be clarifying. Love you Pastor D.
Love me some JP, but I don't think so. JP respects Christianity, no doubt - he finds a lot of wisdom in it. But his faith is not with God, ultimately - its with Carl Jung and Charles Darwin. Jungian Psychology and Darwinism are the indispensable bedrock of his life's work and he refers to their theories constantly - all of which is distinctly unbiblical. I do not think he give them up to become a Christian.
I responded then realised the guy above said pretty much what I wanted to say 😂 other than that this podcast Doug's reacting to isn't "old Peterson", it's from a few days ago.
What do you think about Mr Peterson's interest in mind-altering poisons?
ruclips.net/video/NGIP-3Q-p_s/видео.html
He’s not a believer.
@@cosmictreason2242 It seems to me that Mr. Peterson is a very dangerous self-help guru, (a charismatic evolutionary psychologist?). A lot of his most vocal followers on social media etc are young men who are very enthusiastic about 'experimenting' with very dangerous drugs. Is he Timothy Leary in 'conservative' clothing? I sincerely hope not. m.ruclips.net/video/PjMvSsVIIjU/видео.html
TO THE TECHNICAL PRODUCER OF THIS VIDEO > You listened. Thank you. Well done.
If anyone at canon press sees this… please get Doug to react to a recent interview with Shia Labeouf and Bishop Baron. I think there’s a lot of good content to choose from. Blessings
We appreciate you sir. Thank you.
The Reformed faith has a very hard time extracting the good, true, and beautiful out of the imperfect. Instead, it perches above what is less than perfect, as the judge of it, and criticizes it from without with little (perceived) love. This indeed has the appearance of wisdom.
Yup. We have all these “great” new modern thinkers challenging the current thing on every podcast from here to the moon, but in the end they’re just another observer of division asking the same question: “Quid est Veritas?” not realizing that He, the word, the truth, and the light, Jesus Christ, our Lord and savior, is right in front of them.
The interesting thing that I just noticed is God is the Corporeal Metaphor, or a bodily metaphor incarnate, Him being the inception, inspiration, and creator of all good to which all our introspection into meaning and purpose are based, that is a bit strange way to put it but its fairly true as long as you don't accept God either not existing, being limited, being merely a transitive concept for something, or otherwise being an incomplete understanding of a being. (for His being is completely knowable and known, just instead that we can't know all aspects which defines a clear relationship) I find that quite interesting.
It would be neat if doug can do reactions to snippets of Jordan vs Sam Harris debates that took place awhile back
I liked the response video except the critique at 3:23, as it was answered I believe.
Straight talk from a crooked foundation. Couldn't describe Peterson any better, myself
As I listened to this podcast I was thinking that it would be great if you reacted to JP's points, but thought you wouldn't know Lex to know this podcast existed.
I would recommend Doug read "Jordanetics".
The distinction between the Jungian and the Christian is a distinction between balance and death. The Jungian views the "shadow" (either sociologically or personally) as something to embrace humbly. In that, the Jungian attempts to paint "death" as a potential good, depending on the individual (relativism). But, death is always bad, and Jesus Christ is the Lord of Life. Furthermore, the Word of God identifies the "shadow," and prescribes its death through the process of sanctification (both personally -Eph. --4:22---24- and sociologically - Matt. 28:19).
Furthermore, in embracing the "shadow," Jungian thought makes its way into our own understanding of repentance. It's a spirit of accusation that gets us believing that we can repent for someone else's sin when that someone is now long dead (systemic, or sociological, sin of some sort). It manifests in, perhaps, some "We're so sorry" from some mealy-mouthed leadership. But, repentance doesn't work that way. Remember, the Pharisees wanted Jesus to "repent" of, among other things, healing on the Sabbath. Pharisaical repentance isn't repentance at all. It's from the devil, and Jesus labeled the Pharisees as the devil's offspring, and rightly so.
Repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit, whereby a person's desires are supernaturally changed such that the person hates sin more and more and loves Jesus more and more each day. And it manifests itself in the fruit of obedience in the real world. And pagans wonder at this "hope" in the Christian - for which we're called to give an answer.
Intentional destruction of the human body is sinful, because humans are Imago Dei. Human rights are more about honoring the One in Who's Image humans are made than it is about attributing dignity to humans themselves (although the dignity is present).
So, in the final analysis, the core issue is mortification of sin. Neither an atheist nor a Jungian can be expected to address this, because both are still dead in their trespasses and sin. The best they can do is put lipstick on a pig, so to speak. But sin and death is always ugly and horrid. But the devil always tempts, "You will not surely die." But, it's a lie. Death in small amounts or large amounts is still death. And the Christian is supposed to bring salt, light, and life to a dying world by bringing Christ Jesus' mandates to bear thereupon. Embracing death and carrying guilt upon guilt is the heavy burden. But Jesus' yoke is easy, and His burden is light.
We need a Doug Reacts video for Bo Burnham's song "How the World Works".
Im dying to hear Doug react to Jordan's daughter Mikaela Peterson's journey to faith. Justin Brileys channel Unbelievable has a lot of her experience with psychedelics in her "path to God".
Invite Peterson to chat . You could bless him.
They're saying this is the conversation between the wizard and the robot...
😎
The conversation between Merlin and HAL.
I'm surprised Doug didn't touch on the life by death, death by living idea Peterson raised. Obviously best exemplified in Christ.
I wonder how Peterson would have reacted to a certain event in the life of Jesus when two other gentlemen (Moses and Elijah) turned up. Some metaphor!
Why don't you invite or even challenge Jordan Peterson to a "chat" on your site?
Would love to see a reaction to Sam Harris sometime.
Peterson seems so so close! 🙏🏾
Ultimately, JP’s journey is determined whether or not the scales will fall from his eyes and sees the Word of God as it is, the Word of God. At the current moment, he’s seeing the Bible through a Jung/Darwin lens, rather the other way around.
He’s come a long way, and he’s close. But he’s not quite there yet.
OR, he is developing a pseudoreligion without the bedrock of Christ.
@@whatgives1482 I mean, that’s a very real possibility. Depending if he’s earnestly seeking or not. But I wouldn’t say new. It would be popular, why? Because he’s Jordan Peterson. He just so happens to be more eloquent that it would feel “new” but it be the same old diatribe with a fresh coat of makeup on a pig.
He's come a long way???.....who do you think you are..God knows he is miles ahead of you.....you have a cult like mindset while Jordan is free thinker......like I swear you so called Christians have something dark and ugly. Jordan Peterson has done more work for God than you have.
When JP talks about the balance between death and life and the death of stupidity he says the result is a longer life. His next question is, "What's the ultimate extension of that?" What is this question supposed to mean? What's the extension/result of longer life?
He's saying that the pattern or property is a balance between life/growth and death, and that a result or example of that pattern in action is living more wisely leading to longer life. So if living more wisely leads to living longer, "what is the ultimate extension" means what is the result of living completely in wisdom?
I don't know what his answer would be, he said he doesn't know which in Peterson-speak means he's not sure or confident in what he thinks or feels is the answer. Once again he's arriving into the general area of Christian concepts, but he has no basis for how he got there or which way to keep going so he just stops. To go any further he needs Christ.
I wish JP would watch this
Have yet to see JP sit down with a theologian.
William lane craig was on a small panel discussion with Jordan Peterson.
@@jvt_redbaronspeaks4831 I'm sure that was deep.
🙄
@@jvt_redbaronspeaks4831 as he said, jbp has yet to sit down with a theologian
He had Bishop Barron (a pretty accomplished theologian) on his podcast, one of my favorite episodes and definitely worth a listen for any Christian, Catholic or not: ruclips.net/video/BVrLqpt0APo/видео.html
Personally I think Barron's critiques of JP get to the heart of the matter much faster than Doug's "BUT WHY" interjections every 5 seconds here. It helps incredibly that Barron is so well read in so many key secular writers discussed in the episode above.
Oh my, Please Please please do a video on that last line. How do we go from Jordan Petersons "there's no way to know" to hitting the bedrock of Jesus Christ? Im desperate to know because im stuck there sincerely and honestly.
Natural Reason/revelation alone is sufficient to inform us, "there must be a bedrock". Think Plato's "unmoved mover", the "uncaused first cause". Whether it is the physical creation of the metaphysical realities, there must be someone/something to define/create/establish/govern if anything is to have objective being, significance, and meaning. Peterson is here.
It takes special revelation (scripture) to inform us who/what that is in particular. It is the claim of scripture this unmoved mover, and uncaused first cause has progressively revealed himself throughout redemptive history and made himself known. This is the precise claim of Yahweh in the burning bush. Moses asks, who should I tell them sent me? And Yahweh (God's personal name), says - tell them "I am" sent you. God foundational revelation to Moses to be the one who is the uncaused first cause. The only one who is the exclusive source of being itself. Yahweh is himself the essence of being, and the source of being to everything else - the bedrock of reality.
Scriptures further claim that Jesus comes as the ultimate revelation this God - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made....And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (Jn 1:1-3, 14).
Jesus is not only the cause of all things, but he is also end of all things. Everything was made by him, and for him, towards the ultimate end that he might be preeminent in all things. The preeminence of Christ is the theme of this world, both in creation (v.15-17), and redemption (v.18-20).
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."
If you keep asking the question "why?", the ultimate answer of the Athiest is: no reason, no meaning, no coherence. It just is this way. There is no bedrock, and there is no ultimate answer.
The ultimate answer of the agnostic: there might be a genuine bedrock, or there might not be, but they don't know if there is, or what it what it is if it does exist.
The ultimate answer of Peterson (a vague deism): There is a bedrock, but we don't know what it is.
The ultimate of the Christian: Christ himself is the bedrock of reality, both as the source, and the reason for all things.
My encouragement would be to simply read the NT, starting with the Gospels. See if Christ is not the the most compelling person. I'm a Christian because I think the bible provides the most rational foundation for understanding the world around us, but also because I find the person of Christ utterly compelling. He alone is worthy to be worshipped. The beauty and perfection of his person and work utterly unrivaled. There is none like him. I'm compelled to believe that he is the image of the invisible God.
@@samuelklass3699 I cannot express how grateful I am you had the generosity and compassion to answer my question seriously and in good faith. I read it desperately and a calm came over me as it sunk in, I UNDERSTOOD what you were saying! and it provided some order to a very chaotic place I am in spiritually and intellectually. I dont fully understand of course because its a big issue, but I see a pathway now and I will return to read it and use it to guide me along this part of the road. As luck would have it, I just started reading the Gospels for the first time based on Dougs guidance. Im still in Matthew and its like body blows to the mind to read, as Jordan would say 'old bits of me dying off and the anxiety that causes'. My whole understanding of my reality is changing and its deeply troubling, I was raised without any knowledge of my faith (Anglicans who never went to Church or even talked about God). I dont know how to live this life but Im determined to. Its hard to start again, im 32, so rebuilding after a life spent on secular foundations is so hard, and im terrified about my soul. I was stuck in the place you described as Jordans, the agnostic, in fact I still feel there some days, this scientific rationalist mindset of 'well religion is true but its just a matter of filling the psychological void, its probably not LITERALLY true, like Doug says, I sort of instinctively feel it as an elaborate metaphor, Im trying to get out of that into actual FULL BELIEF AND ROCK SOLID FAITH. thats why the bedrock point leapt out at me. Sorry Im rambling now, but I just wanted to respond earnestly and sincerely and thankyou for the time and effort it took to answer that and acknowledge the years or work it must have taken to get to that understanding your self and then share it with others. I mean this most deeply; thankyou.
@@hairypawter8475 Hey, I'm glad you found it helpful. There is obviously a lot more that could be said, but its a start. Another one of the best things you could do for yourself is find a local church that takes the scriptures serious and cherishes the Gospel. Unfortunately American Christendom is a minefield, so you don't have the luxury of assuming you'll find genuine Christians by just stumbling into whatever church is nearest to you. Nevertheless, there are plenty of good churches, none perfect. If you are serious about what you are saying, I'd be happy to read/talk about the scriptures with you once a week over a video call to be a resource to you on your journey.
I'm not sure why Doug Wilson is so opposed to the use of symbols such as archetypes and metaphors in intellectual discourse. Jesus described himself metaphorically (Living Water. Bread of Life, the Vine). In the book of Psalms, God is metaphorically described as a potter, shepherd, fortress, strong tower, etc. Obviously, none of those descriptions are literal physical realities.
It seems Doug's real issue is Jordan Peterson's failure to preface every utterance with "Soli Deo Gloria". In one of his talks, Dr. Peterson said he is reluctant to describe himself as a Christian because he's thought deeply about what it means to emulate Christ, and realizes how far short he falls from the ideal. I still think he's got a good bit of truth to share. At the very least, he vocally opposes the growing trend towards totalitarianism.
I don't think he is against metaphor, he is against separating the metaphors in scripture from the physical/historical reality. This video was mostly about showing the necessity of a biblical foundation for any worldview.
Have you guys reached out to Peterson to have a sit-down?
The values of Christ have real world positive effects. If you don't believe in him but believe in the values and you incorporate them well in the world you will still benefit positively from doing so. God's grace falls on the just AND the unjust.
📖✨"metaphorical" Jordan Peterson, even with all his interpretive foibles, is still doing a great service for our culture...he is pointing our lost, and throughly secularized culture, back to a relevant respect and interest in the ancient wisdom and mysteries of Scripture. Acknowledging quite openly and unapologetically, The Bible, as our civilization's foundation and origin...And once Prof. Peterson's disciples become curious, and put their ignorant little noses back into the Book, the Holy Spirit can and will do the rest...
It is always frustrating hearing or reading non-Christians talk about what is right or wrong. Without the God of the Bible there is no such thing as right or wrong.
And the bedrock is Christ 👍.
Its ridiculous how folks drone on about Jordan. I liked his book 12 rules, and i thought it was helpful in a few practical ways. At tis point though, it's become too much. He is just a man who for some reason is celebrated.
Don't be envious
He is celebrated because the other side calls him thing like king of the incels which is a obvious lie
@@legion24100 I’m not at all, truth be told I wouldn’t trade places with him.
"The bedrock is Christ."
Archetypes come from the collective unconsciousness, as in the same place numbers come from. Consider the number 2 which, among other things, represents the foundation of all relationships and all of duality. Where does the number 2 (and all others) come from? Again, the collective unconsciousness.
New age mumbo jumbo
@@jokinghazard4022 New age? No, it's as old as can be. The "new age" mumbo jumbo is seen in the infinite number of genders, where "truth" is whatever one says it is (if you don't believe them ask them and they'll tell you), where there is no right and wrong - the abandonment of the relationship between oneself and God, which requires (at the most fundamental level) 2, without which there could be none.
Ok but that doesnt give us a standard for anything. what is collective unconsciousness? And where does it come from?
@@hookoffthejab1 Fair enough. One might say that it is the substrata of intellect from which all of consciousness emerges. Consider, for instance, the intelligence of instinct and the immune-system, which functions behind the scenes of conscious awareness, yet display a clear "knowing". Many perceive this as the "wisdom" of mother nature, or perhaps more deeply the "Wisdom" of God. As for where it comes from, that's akin to asking where does a thought or idea come from, and in answer to that I can only conclude the same - God. Of course that's not to say they can't come from Satan as well. I've actually come to see that as the ultimate problem of man - ascertaining harm from fruition, wrong from right, bad from good, etc, as though the spiritual-warfare of life of being conducted psychologically. Not that I'm "all" in to Jung, but he does have some fascinating insights in my opinion. God bless!
@@gregneedham9905 ok cool so it's basically what people nowadays call intelligent design. I thought you were getting at something else from your first comment. God bless
Peterson is so close yet miles away.
I think his "Christian edging" is a marketing ploy.
Please ask JP to speak with you. He needs Christ and very few people could take on a mind like his … apart from the Holy Spirit!
A honest question for Christians... How long is a reasonable amount of time to wait until the return of Christ before humanity moves on to actual taking responsiblity for making the world better? Christians have been saying Christ's return is any day now for centuries. Please as reasonable people do you have to have an honest timeline? The answer can't be forever or until the earth dies!!
Best evidence for a god, and… GO
Can we stop the teasing and just get a discussion between you two? Lol
When Peterson speaks with committed atheists, he always ends here. As if he cannot escape the boundaries of the respectable modern university.
When he speaks with Christians like Jonathan Pageau or when he is with "safe" atheists (like John Vervaeke), he goes farther, into Christ.
Amos 5:18-20
18 Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD!
Why would you have the day of the LORD?
It is darkness, and not light,
19 as if a man fled from a lion,
and a bear met him,
or went into the house and leaned his hand against the wall,
and a serpent bit him.
20 Is not the day of the LORD darkness, and not light,
and gloom with no brightness in it?
Watching Doug critique JP remind me how annoying self-declared Christians can be sometimes. Their self righteousness and their pretend to have all the right answers. How do you dare to claim to know the true words of god? It’s not all bad but a little humility and acknowledgment that it’s a struggle
How dare we? Because He gave them to us and told us they are His words. The only humble response to that is to accept and submit to it.
The arrogant, self-righteous response would be to deny His truth is really true, claim you don’t have enough evidence, and maintain that you know better than God.
Doug Reacts to Taco Bell.
I can react to just Taco Smell.
Taco Hell
I'm Canadian. Jordan Peterson did not come out against lockdowns or mandates until it was already way too late. He is one of the few people who might have been able to make a difference but he did nothing while the country burned to the ground.
Canada didn’t burn to the ground lol
I discovered Fridman just about a week ago, and while his show seems pretty decent, he himself seems to be an utter buffoon. An honest, well meaning buffoon, but a buffoon nevertheless.
Similar to Dave Rubin
Dr Peterson isn't an atheist. He seems to be getting closer to the truth in his ideas. He thinks like a psychiatrist, and he's brilliant so he can see things differently. I'm not saying he's saved, only that he's warming up to the Bible.
To be saved means to be in a cult...I rather be able to think for myself.
@@legion24100 really? Tell me more...
@@doreencaputo2942 there arrogance Christians carry themselves with as if they know the word of God and the walk as if they live up to those words when in reality they no nothing because they are humans....Jordan Peterson has brought more people in this decade back to Christianity not telling people to be saved by Jesus or telling people the Bible is the only way no....he reading the Bible word for word and breaking it down so us as individuals can come to our own conclusions.
@@doreencaputo2942 what does it mean to be saved to believe in Christ as your savior.....the arrogance to think Jordan Peterson doesn't not believe that because he doesn't think like you is only showing the narcissistic tendencies of religion and the people who follow it
@@legion24100 The saddest and most destructive thing that tarnishes the name of Jesus is the multitude of false teachers that "represent" Christianity. Jesus said to "enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the path that leads to destruction". Matthew 7:13. The problem is that people want to worship themselves and wordly pleasures, and look "holy" by adding Jesus to it. It comes down to this: the Bible is the authoritative, inerrant, God-breathed, sufficient, Word of the One True God, the Ancient of Days. The Bible is all you need, 2 or 3 to gather in His name. No pomp and circumstance.
Milk for babes...
You cant touch The ARC Of The COVENANT, and thats why people have trips! Lol. ¿Huh! This isnt like what Peter Says about Pauls Writings, some oarts hard to understand and what do some people do.. this is all of GOD'S Holy Word being read through the lense of which i feel i have no adequate name (def. man centered).
Yes, Jordan, please change Doug Wilson. The current version sucks.
I like Lex podcast but then again I don't like Lex podcast. Yesterday, listening to his podcast the subject of Molech came up. Lex had no idea who Molech was! He was raised Jewish and has no knowledge of Molech?? SMH!
Yes, Peterson as a form of godliness but denies the power thereof
I get the impression that Peterson is promoting a secular religion.
There is no such thing as a secular religion.
@@DM-dk7js How so?
@@500JM500 Bc it’s a religion…
@@500JM500 secular is defined as “denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis”.
So therefore by definition something secular cannot be a religion.
@@500JM500 for once I agree with DM. Secular religion is just word play atheists use to get out of taking responsibility for the genocide that atheistic governments have perpetrated against their own people. For example if you point to any atrocity carried out by communist governments as examples of what happens when atheists take control they invariably say that those were actually examples of secular religions. Communism/socialism/atheism has never really been tried. We no this because if they had been implemented correctly they would have worked (or so the implication goes).
Though I doubt very much this is what DM meant by his or her response.
Fair entertainment but still looking and waiting under the sun that repeats arguments of dust. Christ mind is seed or one Adam again not needing rebirth which means woke inside you, christ in just near and closest to dust believers about coming outside you is funny christian hopers'
Jordan believes in God.
So do the demons.
Of course he does. Romans 1 says so.
But what he does with that knowledge is the important thing. Does he submit to God as God, or does he suppress that knowledge in unrighteousness.
just read the bible and think. This is stuff is so weak it never fails to shock me.
It really is so razor thin. The conmen just chortle and take people's money.