It was designed by Section 31, but had the war with the Klingons started, I'm sure the Federation would've had multiple dreadnought classes rolling off the production line.
I think the one thing some people forget is that the Vengeance was not just "a big ship" it has drones, and all kinds of nasty accessories that basically allow it to play out like a control ship for entire regions. It's got so much storage space on board for smaller craft and drone ships and long range weapons systems. It's also got the redundancy factor of old school and new school weapons. Things that can punch through shields, standard pulse phasers up the ass, and torpedoes. It's capable of taking to task an entire armada on it's own.
I think that was the point of it, the Kelvin timeline gave rise to a federation hanging somewhere between the overt militarism of the Terrans and the pretend pacifism of the Prime Federation. Khan's influence tipped the balance of ship design way over into full on dedicated warship production.
@@youtubeisapublisher6407 a deleted scene from ST(2009) was the fact that this whole rise of Harrison and the development of the Vengeance (dreadnought class) was because the Klingons had captured the Narada, that's why there is a 25 year jump from when the Narada arrived in the Kelvin timeline, and the events of ST(2009), because he was in a Klingon Prison, while they had access to the Narada, meaning 24th century Romulan and Borg technology. So basically the klingons had future tech about equiv to what happened to voyager when future janeway brought back transphasic torpedos and armor generators.
The Vengeance Class was the only good thing about Into Darkness. I always liked Federation style Battleships. Hope a refit or something similar comes back into a future movie
I think the Vengeance is a vastly superior design to the JJ Enterprise. The JJ Enterprise is a ship that looks like it was designed by committee, with lots of compromises & homages & no clear design direction. Vengeance is a coherent design. The holes in the saucer are strange, but maybe they can put some sort of modular pieces in there & they just left space-dock without them. Maybe you can dock some sort of captain's yacht type things in there.
+Marz10 the only thing that probbly screamed at me when this ship warped in was a resemblence to a well known scenario. This compared to the JJ Enterprise was almost like the star trek equivilent of David meets goliath only David and Goliath were the JJ Prise and the Vengeance.
Marz10 This is what I like to see from people who are not keen on the reboots, respectful criticism. I have to agree to an extent about the JJ enterprise design, but overall I like it. I would prefer, as they said in the video, better proportions for the sections. I actually believe the proportions were somewhat corrected in Into Darkness or the beginning of Beyond.
My interpretation of the Vengeance's size is that it's a multirole warship. It has some stealth technology, it can be operated by a skeleton crew, but could potentially hold fighters, thousands of marines, and has a definite intimidation factor. I would just figure it was meant to perform invasions as well as ship-ship combat.
Galvars Yeah, I mean it's possible to rationalize anything because IN REALITY we get so little information (even in canon ships) that we have to autojustify a lot of stuff for it to make sense.
+Diax1324 I concur. In addition, I suspect that large portions of the Vengenance served as something similar to spaced armor (or the old torpedo bulges in battleships). There must be a tough inner layer covered by a sacrificial outer layer. Could explain why the Vengeance survived those 72 torpedoes blowing up inside her: they were stored in a section which basically served as spaced armor.
+Diax1324 lETS DOUBILE HTE LENGTH HEIGHT AND WIDTH TO MAKE IT 8 TIMES THE SIZE OF THE ENTERPRISE OH AND GIVE IT SUPER SLOW CHARGING DEATH GUNS that won't work so the hero can win.
If I had to guess about the open hull, I'd say its to up the surface area for the density of shield projectors, then to sandwich the bridge inside much much thicker armor with only a single deck in that entire space. In that sense, its actually a very smart engineering choice and the second layer actually strengthens the structure of the saucer by having a sealed structurally tight layer. Judging from the arrangement of the plating, I'd have to guess that a lot of it is intentionally angled in some way and that there's a lot less ship in the vengence than armor relative to the actual walkable space inside it, but then that more area is devoted to systems than conventional decking. In those regards, the actual structural shape of the Vengence makes an enormous amount of sense. Its very clear this is designed for performance, not cost-effectiveness and the purpose for having a single ship either means its a prototype or by keeping the books clean its purpose is to be deniable politically. The model on his desk probably means this shape is being used for something similar that's declassified that's a smokescreen, a bit like how tanks got their name for the manufacturing of storage tanks on the books to conceal their nature.
I agree. As stated in the movie, the ship requires a very small compliment and is built for battle. It's intentionally OVERBUILT to survive heavy battle damage. Just remember that the ship was still maneuverable and running after the detonation of 72 photon torpedoes INSIDE the vessel.
IF the biggest complaint being its size .. and comparing it to more advanced future ships .. think Computers 30yrs ago vs cell phones ... Size doesn't make it more powerful forever but usually the only way you can make something faster, stronger and tougher, with the current tech, is to make it bigger.
Easier to move less mass than more and the bigger the ship the bigger the target. Bigger is not how we make things more powerful. A US Destroyer today would take out a US Battleship from ww2. We only make them bigger when we don't make tech advances. Tech allows us to make things bigger but bigger isn't better unless you are simply trying to carry more stuff. If anything ships would get smaller with less need for crew space due to more automation and refinement of technology.
Or the difference between the Iowa class battleships and modern _Ticonderoga_ class cruisers. The Iowas were enormous things with colossal cannons meant to slug it out with the likes of Yamato and Musashi. The Ticonderogas were built to snipe Soviet ships over the horizon with guided missiles.
I own the STO version of this ship, really love it. I however did notice a lot of details that you missed to mention, or likely even knew about. - The deflector has 2 large armored doors that can close in combat mode. - The ship has combat attack drones, in the game a total of 6 can be launched. I however believe that this ship may also partially serve as carrier being able to launch a lot more in the actual movies. - The ship is so heavily armored that it would be hard for even a Galaxy class ship to penetrate the hull. - Just like in STO, the ship is able to cloak - The ship has fast firing boardside torpedo launchers, similar to the Thunderchild's Point Defense System yet a lot more powerful. - The main weapons are Phaser Emitter Arrays and work similar to cannons, but are actually beam weapons instead that shoot short bursts instead of the long regular phaser array systems - There are doors on the backside of the saucer, which basically is the top side (rear) of the neck. All similar style ships including the connie have this - On the top and bottom of the saucer are 2 red dots behind the bridge section (4 in total). These serve as mining beams and tractor beams depending on what you need them for. (Echoes of light mission will show this clearly) - This dreadnought is so huge that it dwarfs even well known ship classes, such as the Galaxy, Borg Sphere, and even command battlecruisers. It is in the same size range as Herald cruisers and dreadnoughts. - The dark coloring may refer to the current Royal Navy submarine, which is of course just like any other navy submarine dark in color. For the name, actually it is not much different from actual names used in Star Trek. Many ships are named after water bound navy ships from the past or city names, countries, etc. This also applies to the Vengeance class, some examples: Vengeance-class frigate 1793-1814 Operators: French and Royal Navies en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vengeance-class_frigate HMS Vengeance (Canopus class, 1899) Royal Navy pre-dreadnought battleship en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vengeance_(1899) HMS Vengeance (R71) (Colossus class WW2 carrier) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vengeance_(R71) HMS Vengeance (S31) (Vanguard-class submarine) Currently in service en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vengeance_(S31) Longer wikipedia list of ships classes that used this name: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vengeance After seeing this list, you can see where I base my facts on why the ship name is NOT false or wrong for the ST universe. Also why it has the features that it does, carrier capabilities (carrier history), cloak (current submarine), frigate history (far past) and even the dreadnought part can be verified by the 1988 ship version.
Given that we never saw the increased surface area actively being used to house more weapons, I'd argue that a purpose-built Starfleet combat vessel should be little more than a phaser and torpedo bank, with some engines strapped onto it. The Vengeance should have been smaller, but denser than the Enterprise. Its saucer section and nacelles should be pulled in tight to the engineering hull - not quite to the extent of the Defiant, but almost like a Miranda or Nebula. I'd like to contest your point about the Narada - it was a ship 125 years ahead of everything it came up against... it wasn't its size that was the deciding factor.
I actually have a very good theory on the Vengeance's design (minus the obvious flaw). I believe, that the Vengeance was designed by Khan for himself and his family of augments to escape into Deep Space and far away from Federation space. There are several points that lead to this. First off, the basic ship design. Notice how it did not look like the other escort class warships. Despite being called a warship it did not follow the same design principle as the Miranda or Akira classes. Instead It followed the design of Constitution classes and Galaxy classes which are generally used for Deep Space missions. Second point would be the size. If Khan did intend to bring the rest of the Augment into deep space, he would wan to repopulate. In that case, a much larger ship would make sense as it would deliver much more space needed for a small population. And as he has no idea how long the journey would take, the larger the ship, the bigger the safety margin of the population size it could maintain. And finally,in escaping to Deep space where there could be all sorts of dangers, he would need a ship stealthy enough to evade sensors, failing that, weapons, shields and armour powerful enough to defend itself and the people the ship is carrying. Also, to explain why the sudden leap in technology between the first film and the second. Who said that the Vengeance was designed between those times? If anything, it was more likely the Vengeance was designed when the Kelvin was destroyed back then, so that would be more than enough time to design and construct the ship.
I completely agree that Vengeance is absolutely ridiculous in scale compared to other Federation ships, however even normal structural steel is more than strong enough to allow such large ships to exist, and I think it's safe to assume that the JJprise and Vengeance are both constructed of alloys and composites more durable than generic structural steel. With Star Trek's level of material science honestly I don't understand why they aren't building space stations and goliath rotating habitats the size of large asteroids, or warp-capable colony ships many kilometers in length and diameter to rapidly speed up the process of populating their colony worlds. There really is no excuse except that the universe never honestly considers the implications of it's own technologies, what really surprises me about the Vengeance in particular is how poorly armed it is for a ship with that much usable internal volume, it's been stated before that even the Enterprise D could pack in tens of thousands of photon torpedoes and not even really put a dent in it's gargantuan usable internal space. The Vengeance should be that kind of ship, it should be bristling with scores of those phaser-cannon ball turrets, it should have photon torpedo tubes or even turreted photon torpedo "guns" covering every angle of the ship, it should have emergency hatches to blow out it's own warp cores and torpedo magazines to prevent internal explosions from cooking off other volatile components inside it. It's actually an incredibly underpowered, undergunned ship considering it's size.
2yrs late but this is what I think. i think there is one thing everyone is missing, Khan said that the ship came from his mind. Khan "Everything. Alexander Marcus needed to respond to an uncivilized threat in a civilized time, and for that, he needed a warrior's mind - my mind - to design weapons and warships." the way I see it is, Khan is from the 1990's, the 80's and 90's are when it was thought that the bigger the better. khan has a huge ego, I believe he wanted vengeance for himself and his people, which is why the ship was designed for a small crew since his group was only 72. he would like the size of the ship and see it as powerful and intimidating to his enemies, his emperors status Flagship. the bridge being in the open is his ego believing he is like an emperor and would want to see his defeated below, kinda at his feet. he'd also want to see the battle above and below as he destroys anyone who opposes him. he believes he is so superior to any and all, is another reason the bridge is so open to attack, he wouldn't believe any enemy could succeed in targeting or destroying the bridge. as for the name, he could also have named it "Vengeance" as his vengeance for the normal humans defeating and exiling him in the 90's. that's just my opinion about why I believe Vengeance was made the way it is.
On the automation issue with it supposed to be commanded by 1 person I just remembered the TOS episode the Ultimate Computer where they were testing the M5 computer capable of commanding and operating a Constitution class ship (which wasn't designed to be automated) with a crew of 20. The episode also said that the Federation had unmanned robotic cargo ships that were described as quite old.
🖖😎👍Very truly cool and very nicely greatly well done and very nicely informatively explained and executed in every detail way shape and form provided on the "U.S.S. Vengeance!"; And I myself own both the Hot Wheels and Eaglemoss Die-cast Models of it but it just doesn't truly scream true StarTrek Canon to me as per its design of the ship, It looks more like something that the Klingons would design in constructing a Starship for Starfleet as a combined crew alliance vessel!, Any ways a job very nicely wonderfully well done indeed Sir's!👌.
My father loved Star Trek, and by in large, my first introduction to Star Trek was the JJ verse. I love the JJ verse designs and love the designs from the other series as well.
Agree with both Comd Cokkings and Stuart Foley. 1) wrong size for a Starfleet ship in the Alternate TOS era. 2) no hole in the saucer section. the black paint job is fine.
That big hole in the saucer section could be used to store a bunch of smaller ships. Just come into battle and SURPRISE, a bunch of ships pop out of the huge ship!
A possible explanation for The Nu Trek Constitution class ships i.e. the larger Enterprise was due to the Kelvin's encounter with the Narada, 15-18 years before NCC-1701 was commissioned. During Captain Robau's time on board the Narada the Kelvin did extensive scans of the massive unknown Romulan ship, and the data was either relayed to star fleet or transferred on to the escaping shuttles. Although star fleet engineer’s or (section 31) could not duplicate the 120 year advanced design simply from scans alone, they would have been able to partially reverse engineer some of the data to build larger star ships (the new Enterprise). In addition when the Narada's drill was severed and crashed into San Francisco bay, star fleet engineers now had the actual salvaged advanced future technology and materials. Also when the Enterprise destroyed the Narada they could have conducted more advanced detailed scans, or recovered some debris. This knowledge likely led to the construction of the USS Vengeance for the next film into darkness. I admit this is just a rationalization for these outrageously large ships.
I am looking forward to part two where you will hopefully cover that one particular gun that the Vengeance points at the Enterprise, and is about to fire at it. I also look forward to your own views about the bridge ofthe Vengeance.
I wish you guys would link to the part 2s. I usually see the part 1s in my suggested videos, then I have to go looking for the part 2. But sometimes I don't.
This was meant to fight klingons and it was so big to shock the enemies with its appearance and carry thousands of troops/ fighters should the need arise, serving also as a command center. So the big size makes a lot of sense!
Like how these guys really think they know what military doctrine and what space combat would be like. There's many reasons for the size of the ship and other design choices, it's a command vessel it's supposed to be able to coordinate entire fleets as well as hold down entire sections of space with the JJ verse trans warp the vengeance could travel across the beta quadrant in very fast times the thing was clearly also meant to house several squadrons of fighters and shuttles most likely Even build them on spot this thing shows up into a system it's supposed to convince a population it's not even fight it's the Star destroyer of Star trek the military doctrine of Starfleet which at this point it was using was similar to the tarkin doctrine JJ Enterprise and vengeance are warships first and anything else second JJ verse also has a higher reliance on torpedoes and cannons than phaser strips, as well as the captain of the Calvin when entering the narada ended up getting interior deep scans of the ship sent it back to the Kelvin which transported it on another shuttle as well as when the Enterprise fought the narada they also scanned it therefore with cons mined and the scans from the narada they were able to create much better weapons and other technology such as portable transporters years before they should have.
If MIchael Bay made a Star Trek movie, this is what you would get. It's an exercise in mental gymnastics to try and reconcile this with carefully rationalized, well-thought-out designs. They really just wanted to make the biggest, most ridiculous thing possible to impress. The observation about the black hat v. white hat symbolism is spot-on, as is the strength-in-numbers argument that you guys make. It's a design best left forgotten.
It's big for a reason. Ship can be crewed by 1 if needed. The rest of the ship is Shields and Weapons. The bulk of the ship is computers. To fly with only a crew of 1 (if needed) would require A LOT of computing power. The ship is mostly computers thus justifying it's size.
That "shitty little science ship" didn't get the screen time it deserved.. We only really saw the Equinox, but the Nova-class is basically a mini Intrepid-class. Not to mentioned, it's armed to the teeth! 11 phaser banks, and 3 torpedo launchers on a teeny tiny ship. #badass
+Eric Wiggins Heh I remember reading the TNG Tech Manual in the 90s, and they had a blurb on future classes for Starships Enterprise, and one of the concepts they listed was called a "Nova Class", but it didn't resemble anything that made it to the screen. Someone working for Berman in the day really, really wanted to use "Nova" as a class name sooner or later
I’m pretty sure the “hyperspace” in the jj films was intended to be a new take on how transwarp looks, and then cbs screwed it up by putting it in disco ships.
Also, the reflective view on the bottom of the LCARS looks like it's there to display damage to the bottom of the ship, as the red portions are in different spots from the top view.
The Vengence to me would fit in as Star Fleet Battle Ship if it were set somewhere during the dominion wars. With some scaling and design changes of course.
I'd argue that the timeline has multiple divergences, starting with the whole Borg interference with the first warp flight. Enterprise takes place in that timeline and the Borg wreckage on Earth and the whole temporal cold war crazyness that kept showing up throughout the pre-Federation times probably screwed everything up more.
Think about how the Narada affected their thinking. After coming up against such a massive and dominant ship, they probably got scared that something similar might occur again. The Narada was damn imposing!
@@CapLP7800 well, in TNG they have no knowledge of the borg. Therefore, it would stand to reason that the borg were never encountered in that timeline before. Now in first contact, you have the borg going into the past to stop Zefrom Cochran. The borg sphere is blown up and presumably crashes to earth. In enterprise, they encounter the borg in the arctic. This creates a problem since they would have presumably had a way to study them and their technologies before TNG. Thus the TNG crew should have known about the borg. Hence a new timeline. The final episode of enterprise could have happened in the prime timepine due to the lack of borg and it being a holodeck simulation. With the new borg tech it explains why the USS Kelvin looked less like the prime timeline and more like the "Kelvin Timeline" Then when Nero's ship comes "back in time" with further advanced borg tech integrated with more traditional Romulan technology (albeit 150+ years into the future) With their understanding of borg technology thanks to the sphere on Earth, they were able to integrate it into their current starships further influencing their scale and design Edit: credit goes to another youtuber who posted a video on this theory. I just remembered it and found the logic to be sound, so I wrote it here.
However, the Federation Had Possessed Some Knowledge of the Borg Within the Prime Timeline. Yes, Enterprise (NX-01) Had Encountered The Borg, Having Assimilated the Researchers. However this Occurs Within Both Timelines. The Federation is Aware of the Borg Within the Prime Timeline, Take For Evidence Seven of Nine’s Parents. They Had Some Indication of the Borg’s Existence, Presumably Due to the Encounter Within Enterprise (The Show). For Your Theory to Function, Enterprise’s Encounter With the Borg Must Never Occur Within the Prime Timeline. Then Should it Never Have Occurred, Seven’s Parents Will Not Have Known of The Borg, Yet They Do. Thank You for Responding, I Had Not Expected Such.
@@CapLP7800it could be possible, however unlikely, that they discovered them independent of the Enterprise incident (many cities were taken on the neutral zone border whether or not it was the bog I dont remember). If this is true, my theory can still hold some water Edit:this would explain starfleet's apparent and abundant lack of knowledge of them and their technologies Edit 2: they could have discovered them and not known the specific details of them hence them not being common knowledge. Just the lack of defensive measures for protection against them is why I believe what I do. If the borg sphere wreckage was still at the pole, I doubt starfleet would have struggled as much as they did
Even though the movie it originates from is definitely flawed, this design has grown on me a lot, especially after getting my hands on it in ST:O where it's not become my primary ship. Hell, it doesn't even feel out of place anymore in the much more militarized 25th century Star Fleet where they now openly produce warships
agreed. Everything about this ship although starfleet in shape all shows the signs of Section 31 on it. The pannel guards on the Buzzards and Deflector Dish. The big cannons mounted to the front underside of the saucer section and that buzzards but ridiculously odd and bizzar hole in the saucer section where the bridge is.
First seeing the Vengeance I awed at its presence, then I went "Oh, why's that there?" to that odd hole in the mid-section. When I first saw images and clips then the movie scenes of the Vengeance my mind immediately thought "Excelsior?" I was gitty at the hope/thought it was the Excelsior.
+Captain Lokiawa well as Samuel and Stewart stated. When they mentioned insperations from stealth planes like the SR 71 Blackbird Spy plane. Theyre probbly right the hull is shaped that way to serve its purpose of reflecting sensor energy when in stealth mode its changing shape is often thanks to the Buzzard and Deflector guards that can open and close.
Oookay? I know and understand, I was just commenting on how I felt about the Vengeance when I first saw it on screen: from excited to whatever emotion is "Why is there a hole." After watching Into Darkness a dozen times and learning about the ships reasons I understand but that hole still looks unattractive when I see the ship, its an eye catcher...
hmmm Now that you mention it. That strange hole in the center of the saucer is probbly up for more commenting about and scrutany than any other part of the ship itself.
Thanks for the vid, late to see, but gotta say I love the ship. It's got great angles and quite a looker. This is my cruiser in STO and I love it... XD I might get the JJ Enterprise, but eh... Either way you bring up good points, and love your guys content, appreciate your work! Oh and merry Christmas 2018!
You guys need to get passed the size issues between TOS and JJverse eras. As long as the ships look proportional to the other vessels in their respective timelines, there is no need to harp on the size difference each and every JJverse related video. TOS era died with Nemesis. Be happy the reboot was successful and seems to be holding. I know you two are passionate about this stuff, but you need to remember there are many people who are not, and the reboot was not a guaranteed success. Besides, I don't hear Godzilla fans complaining about how supersized he has become since his introduction.
The primary/secondary hull proportionality of this ship has always reminded me of the Enterprise D's proportionality, but with a more traditional hull/nacelle silhouette. I agree with Stuart, the sizing is nothing to do with the Narada.
I just assumed that the Vengeance was the size it was to act as a theatre of war capital ship. meaning it's a troop transport, medical ship, cargo transport, fighter carrier and so fourth. i haven't seen a cutaway of the Vengeance so what's it look like inside
I like to think of the kelvin universe as a I between of the Terran empire universe and the OG universe as there is more of a mix of both. Kelvin starfleet seems more militaristic than the OG starfleet but less than the terrains. The vengeance is a show of this as it would never be thought up by an admiral of the federation but the terrans would go for a design like this in a heart beat.
Usually when I watch trekyards I gain a new appreciation for the ships but the more I learn about all the jj ships just make me realize how ridiculous they are.
refutation time: So JJ Verse - everything is bigger - future so bright you need shades - literally said by jj. That was the reason for the blingy enterprise bridge and all of the lensflare-gasm. So why is it this big? Well principally lets assume that we are maximizing the technology base of the era - pushing every limit. Well you're still using duotronic circuitry (whatever that is) and its not optronic or anything with biomemetic gel packs and whatever else. So to automate so much requires a large power plant, cooling systems (in space you only have the ability to radiate so your heat sinking has to be huge - which takes up a lot of space) and you have a fairly large data center that will be processing all of the sensors and you probably have some sort of Virtual Intelligence or Artificial Intelligence running most of the chores even with a normal compliment. Everything about this ship requires it to be large including one would assume the ability to haul around troops to land, huge hangars for fighter and assault craft as well as repair/maint cycles and presumably industrial scale replicators or at least on board 3-d printers that can fabricate entire sections of armored plate or unibody hulls for shuttles and such. Even automated production lines take time - hell this thing probably just recycles damaged stuff and prints new things from the recovered scrap. All of this takes energy and your power supply keeps increasing even without the need for a huge crew. It is built to knock the Klingons into next week and not let them recover. It doesn't have to be everywhere at once because the Klingons will come to it and die for honor and stuff. Banging on about ToS era stuff not being so big is just silly because I'll bet if Gene could have re-imagined parts of it he might just make starships bigger. Space is a big place and to do it well you have to also go big. "It doesn't neeeeeed to be so big," you whine...well using the word need is just projection. How do you know? Starfleet has been learning harsher lessons sooner in this universe and Section 31 is codified in canon earlier than in ToS unless ofc you count the novel "Cloak". This thing can fire Phasers at warp. We don't see that ability until DS9/Voy - so that's a Khan enhancement and this thing has TNG era warp scaling apparently so anything and everything on the drawing board was put into actual production. Some of the bigness may come from the fact that some tech that allowed for Prime Universe stuff to stay smaller hasn't beeen developed yet so optronic technology could make the rest of the ship smaller. So as to the damage - it has a MA/AM weapon go off in the interior - y'know a nuclear fucking explosion. Starships aren't designed for that regardless of anything else. I'm not surprised many systems all over the place were overloaded or blown out. I'm shocked that the back half of the ship wasn't simply blown off from that maneuver. So back to your apparent size issue - if other races (Romulans, Borg, Dominion and any number of Voy races we see) build bigger than the Federation in any era in Prime - why wouldn't this Fed simply build big regardless of the point of divergence. There doesn't even need to be a point of divergence btw - simply that the black hole spit spock out back in time and space and the universe was already divergent regardless of whether or not Spock and the Narada went back. They didn't go back and create a parallel timeline - they simply went back and fucked with a timeline that was already parallel. Time travel has always been a bit murky in ST with very few hard rules in place and the writers joking about it straight through seven seasons of Voy. Just be glad no one turned into an amphibian and had sex in JJVerse. Internally The JJVerse is consistant. Everything is bigger, faster and has more chrome and polish. They don't have the LCARS system because Okudagrams are terrible and we have better UI design ideas now anyhow and its easier for a mass audience to see a Tony Stark/Microsoft Table Surface inspired system. So its not all 1960's button and knobby with blinking lights - we're already past that crap in our own time so why throw back? It only makes sense if you wanna bore people to death with arcane, cryptic tech that went away with windows 3.1 or honestly DOS. My graphing calculator has a more high tech UI than the original enterprise so this kinda criticism serves no logical purpose. Hell I think the Phoenix in First contact was more advanced than ToS enterprise simply because of the conceit that technology and the idea of the future has moved on since 1960. Look at the stupid PADDs everyone uses in ST. Our iPads today are 10x more advanced and it wouldn't take much to give them satellite communications ability given another 250 years of advancement. I'm laughing that they still have the old flip communicators half the time. Why? They should have google glass - but as contact lenses and walk around with augmented reality all the time - literally deploy orbital probes and have full telemetry and topo maps wherever you go plus whatever support you can get from the ship. Their uniforms should have all kinds of wearable tech that is powered by the body heat and movement of the wearer. I think you guys need to take Drexler's point of just throwing out the monkey brain and really get outside the comfort zone. The Vengeance is a fun ship that sort of points at where starfleet could go. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the next movie (#4) where we have the NCC-1701A run around that some of those advancements in tech aren't baked in...like phasers at warp and a rescaled warp system. In Beyond they even mention that the Enterprise A is the most advanced in the fleet. It will probably be bigger than even the original Ent. in the JJVerse by a decent margin. Also larger scaled ships artistically let you pack in so much more detail and that can be important in today's HD/UHD environment. Consider the cyborg guy we saw in the first two films. ToS never had any that looked that advanced despite Kirk running into many androids. Even Data in ToS was programmed in COBOL apparently since he had to keep running subroutines for everything. A JJVerse Data would appear similar but pack in a lot more tech - partly because we'd expect it. Hell even the fully functioning sex organs would be a great joke if Spock and Uhura were on another break and she decided she wanted some mandroid meat. The thing would probably spin, vibrate and send her into warp. This Kirk also got his captaincy like a decade ahead of ToS Kirk - and frankly is a better Captain since he isn't starfucking any more by the second movie. He might not ever settle down but I doubt this Kirk would abandon his family if he had one. To take advantage of this theaters need to stop projecting and start putting up huge back lit HD panels so things don't get washed out. The Blu-ray editions are fantastic to watch for all of the color and detail you get. #RantOver
Every time they call the Vengeance a Dreadnought, I look for the third nacelle. I am surprised the torpedo turrets weren't touched upon, but I guess that is the next segment. Good briefing though...
Can someone explain to me. Why kirk was so surprised while vengeance catch them up in warp when we can see two ships fighting at warp even in enterprise series :D
because they jump away at max warp the enterprise was the flagship of the time had the most advanced tech in use, its a surprise since the vengeance had to out run them the vengeance had to have a whole warp factor on the enterprise, when the enterprise was one of the fastest ships of that time they didn't know that was possible
the can opener comment had me in laughing my arse off . I agree its symmetrically designed better than the JJ prise. the JJ prise is bulbous in alot of areas. the nacelles look like zeppelins. another great trekyards . I happily await part 2.
I always thought of the vengeance as like either Bismark or Yamato one (or two) giant super battleships capable of taking on a whole enemy fleet on its own
It's more Tillman Battleship in star trek. Fits Kahn's MO. Unnecessarily large and armored... check, heavily armed... check, would be laughed at in any of the major powers of the Alpha/ Beta quadrant of the time except Romulans...... double check.
Just a nitpick, but the Galaxy class is still the biggest ship in the fleet at the time of the Sovereign class debut. Ships should not be measured by length, but instead by volume as it is a 3-D object.
I always figure the Abram relaunch ships just have to be lower technology. It takes much larger ships just to get the same power production and functional warp nacelles.
I think i may have to remind everyone that this ship was built specifically for Section 31 not Starfleet.
In wiki it was for starfleet
It was designed by Section 31, but had the war with the Klingons started, I'm sure the Federation would've had multiple dreadnought classes rolling off the production line.
It's building location and purpose reminds me of the chaos super dreadnought from the Horus Heresy book series.
Yes this ship is ridiculous, BUT we did go from Civil War ironclads to the Yamato in 80 years, so it may not be THAT much of a stretch.
I think the one thing some people forget is that the Vengeance was not just "a big ship" it has drones, and all kinds of nasty accessories that basically allow it to play out like a control ship for entire regions. It's got so much storage space on board for smaller craft and drone ships and long range weapons systems. It's also got the redundancy factor of old school and new school weapons. Things that can punch through shields, standard pulse phasers up the ass, and torpedoes. It's capable of taking to task an entire armada on it's own.
The Vengence feels like a mirror universe ship that wouldn't have a counterpart in our universe.
I think that was the point of it, the Kelvin timeline gave rise to a federation hanging somewhere between the overt militarism of the Terrans and the pretend pacifism of the Prime Federation. Khan's influence tipped the balance of ship design way over into full on dedicated warship production.
Annalee H I thought in Star Trek: Beyond, the Federation goes back to its Pacifism?
That is a very cool and interesting observation. Nice! It is a little bit too awesome for the soy-infused Federation.
@@youtubeisapublisher6407 a deleted scene from ST(2009) was the fact that this whole rise of Harrison and the development of the Vengeance (dreadnought class) was because the Klingons had captured the Narada, that's why there is a 25 year jump from when the Narada arrived in the Kelvin timeline, and the events of ST(2009), because he was in a Klingon Prison, while they had access to the Narada, meaning 24th century Romulan and Borg technology.
So basically the klingons had future tech about equiv to what happened to voyager when future janeway brought back transphasic torpedos and armor generators.
I prefer an Odyssey class over this thing all day
The Vengeance Class was the only good thing about Into Darkness. I always liked Federation style Battleships. Hope a refit or something similar comes back into a future movie
Overwatch bought the tree ornament version , that lights up. It looks cool. Cept for that middle dounut.
By the voyager time in the JJ-verse people will be flying Dyson Spheres into battle.
+Sean Richmond So that is where the First Federation came from. Wonder what happened to those marble ships from the TOS.
to be honest I'd pay to see that movie of Dyson spheres destroying each other lol
I'll buy that for a dollar!!
and the timeagents of the 31 centrie are flying hole galaxys and universes
I'll buy for 20 bars of compressed latinum
I think the Vengeance is a vastly superior design to the JJ Enterprise. The JJ Enterprise is a ship that looks like it was designed by committee, with lots of compromises & homages & no clear design direction. Vengeance is a coherent design.
The holes in the saucer are strange, but maybe they can put some sort of modular pieces in there & they just left space-dock without them. Maybe you can dock some sort of captain's yacht type things in there.
+Marz10 the only thing that probbly screamed at me when this ship warped in was a resemblence to a well known scenario. This compared to the JJ Enterprise was almost like the star trek equivilent of David meets goliath only David and Goliath were the JJ Prise and the Vengeance.
+Marz10 The JJS Enterprise was design by Apple and Cellphone oligarchies so they can sell more I-pads.
LOL xD.
In your dreams lol You just wont admit that it was Ryan Church who was the man behind the design.
Marz10 This is what I like to see from people who are not keen on the reboots, respectful criticism. I have to agree to an extent about the JJ enterprise design, but overall I like it. I would prefer, as they said in the video, better proportions for the sections. I actually believe the proportions were somewhat corrected in Into Darkness or the beginning of Beyond.
i dont think its black camoflage, its unpainted..... its just been finished, you seem them puting on the nacceles in the movie
My interpretation of the Vengeance's size is that it's a multirole warship. It has some stealth technology, it can be operated by a skeleton crew, but could potentially hold fighters, thousands of marines, and has a definite intimidation factor. I would just figure it was meant to perform invasions as well as ship-ship combat.
+Diax1324 You know... there is such concept in ST EU, the "Space Control Ship".
Galvars Yeah, I mean it's possible to rationalize anything because IN REALITY we get so little information (even in canon ships) that we have to autojustify a lot of stuff for it to make sense.
Diax1324 Exactly! We try to make sens from everything even if that was create without it.
+Diax1324 I concur. In addition, I suspect that large portions of the Vengenance served as something similar to spaced armor (or the old torpedo bulges in battleships). There must be a tough inner layer covered by a sacrificial outer layer. Could explain why the Vengeance survived those 72 torpedoes blowing up inside her: they were stored in a section which basically served as spaced armor.
+Diax1324 lETS DOUBILE HTE LENGTH HEIGHT AND WIDTH TO MAKE IT 8 TIMES THE SIZE OF THE ENTERPRISE
OH AND GIVE IT SUPER SLOW CHARGING DEATH GUNS that won't work so the hero can win.
If I had to guess about the open hull, I'd say its to up the surface area for the density of shield projectors, then to sandwich the bridge inside much much thicker armor with only a single deck in that entire space. In that sense, its actually a very smart engineering choice and the second layer actually strengthens the structure of the saucer by having a sealed structurally tight layer. Judging from the arrangement of the plating, I'd have to guess that a lot of it is intentionally angled in some way and that there's a lot less ship in the vengence than armor relative to the actual walkable space inside it, but then that more area is devoted to systems than conventional decking. In those regards, the actual structural shape of the Vengence makes an enormous amount of sense.
Its very clear this is designed for performance, not cost-effectiveness and the purpose for having a single ship either means its a prototype or by keeping the books clean its purpose is to be deniable politically. The model on his desk probably means this shape is being used for something similar that's declassified that's a smokescreen, a bit like how tanks got their name for the manufacturing of storage tanks on the books to conceal their nature.
I agree. As stated in the movie, the ship requires a very small compliment and is built for battle. It's intentionally OVERBUILT to survive heavy battle damage. Just remember that the ship was still maneuverable and running after the detonation of 72 photon torpedoes INSIDE the vessel.
I had no idea the name of “tanks” came from an effort to disguise what they were by labeling them like storage tanks. Interesting.
IF the biggest complaint being its size .. and comparing it to more advanced future ships .. think Computers 30yrs ago vs cell phones ... Size doesn't make it more powerful forever but usually the only way you can make something faster, stronger and tougher, with the current tech, is to make it bigger.
Easier to move less mass than more and the bigger the ship the bigger the target.
Bigger is not how we make things more powerful. A US Destroyer today would take out a US Battleship from ww2. We only make them bigger when we don't make tech advances. Tech allows us to make things bigger but bigger isn't better unless you are simply trying to carry more stuff.
If anything ships would get smaller with less need for crew space due to more automation and refinement of technology.
@@swirvinbirds1971 I'm pretty sure we are saying the same thing...
@@WilliamTythas you're right. I think I misread your OP. 👍
Intimidation factor......the tarkin doctrine from star wars
Or the difference between the Iowa class battleships and modern _Ticonderoga_ class cruisers. The Iowas were enormous things with colossal cannons meant to slug it out with the likes of Yamato and Musashi. The Ticonderogas were built to snipe Soviet ships over the horizon with guided missiles.
Remember guys, this was designed by Khan. Why would he follow Starfleet design philosophy?
I own the STO version of this ship, really love it. I however did notice a lot of details that you missed to mention, or likely even knew about.
- The deflector has 2 large armored doors that can close in combat mode.
- The ship has combat attack drones, in the game a total of 6 can be launched. I however believe that this ship may also partially serve as carrier being able to launch a lot more in the actual movies.
- The ship is so heavily armored that it would be hard for even a Galaxy class ship to penetrate the hull.
- Just like in STO, the ship is able to cloak
- The ship has fast firing boardside torpedo launchers, similar to the Thunderchild's Point Defense System yet a lot more powerful.
- The main weapons are Phaser Emitter Arrays and work similar to cannons, but are actually beam weapons instead that shoot short bursts instead of the long regular phaser array systems
- There are doors on the backside of the saucer, which basically is the top side (rear) of the neck. All similar style ships including the connie have this
- On the top and bottom of the saucer are 2 red dots behind the bridge section (4 in total). These serve as mining beams and tractor beams depending on what you need them for. (Echoes of light mission will show this clearly)
- This dreadnought is so huge that it dwarfs even well known ship classes, such as the Galaxy, Borg Sphere, and even command battlecruisers. It is in the same size range as Herald cruisers and dreadnoughts.
- The dark coloring may refer to the current Royal Navy submarine, which is of course just like any other navy submarine dark in color.
For the name, actually it is not much different from actual names used in Star Trek. Many ships are named after water bound navy ships from the past or city names, countries, etc. This also applies to the Vengeance class, some examples:
Vengeance-class frigate 1793-1814
Operators: French and Royal Navies
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vengeance-class_frigate
HMS Vengeance (Canopus class, 1899) Royal Navy pre-dreadnought battleship
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vengeance_(1899)
HMS Vengeance (R71) (Colossus class WW2 carrier)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vengeance_(R71)
HMS Vengeance (S31) (Vanguard-class submarine) Currently in service
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vengeance_(S31)
Longer wikipedia list of ships classes that used this name:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vengeance
After seeing this list, you can see where I base my facts on why the ship name is NOT false or wrong for the ST universe. Also why it has the features that it does, carrier capabilities (carrier history), cloak (current submarine), frigate history (far past) and even the dreadnought part can be verified by the 1988 ship version.
I love the detail on the engines from the Vengence
Given that we never saw the increased surface area actively being used to house more weapons, I'd argue that a purpose-built Starfleet combat vessel should be little more than a phaser and torpedo bank, with some engines strapped onto it. The Vengeance should have been smaller, but denser than the Enterprise. Its saucer section and nacelles should be pulled in tight to the engineering hull - not quite to the extent of the Defiant, but almost like a Miranda or Nebula. I'd like to contest your point about the Narada - it was a ship 125 years ahead of everything it came up against... it wasn't its size that was the deciding factor.
Exactly not to mention it’s tech from another time line farther in the future than this one
why are we so stuck on what was. I think it's awesome to change stuff up.
lol I love watching nerds argue about stuff that really doesn't matter.
I actually have a very good theory on the Vengeance's design (minus the obvious flaw). I believe, that the Vengeance was designed by Khan for himself and his family of augments to escape into Deep Space and far away from Federation space. There are several points that lead to this.
First off, the basic ship design. Notice how it did not look like the other escort class warships. Despite being called a warship it did not follow the same design principle as the Miranda or Akira classes. Instead It followed the design of Constitution classes and Galaxy classes which are generally used for Deep Space missions.
Second point would be the size. If Khan did intend to bring the rest of the Augment into deep space, he would wan to repopulate. In that case, a much larger ship would make sense as it would deliver much more space needed for a small population. And as he has no idea how long the journey would take, the larger the ship, the bigger the safety margin of the population size it could maintain.
And finally,in escaping to Deep space where there could be all sorts of dangers, he would need a ship stealthy enough to evade sensors, failing that, weapons, shields and armour powerful enough to defend itself and the people the ship is carrying.
Also, to explain why the sudden leap in technology between the first film and the second. Who said that the Vengeance was designed between those times? If anything, it was more likely the Vengeance was designed when the Kelvin was destroyed back then, so that would be more than enough time to design and construct the ship.
I completely agree that Vengeance is absolutely ridiculous in scale compared to other Federation ships, however even normal structural steel is more than strong enough to allow such large ships to exist, and I think it's safe to assume that the JJprise and Vengeance are both constructed of alloys and composites more durable than generic structural steel. With Star Trek's level of material science honestly I don't understand why they aren't building space stations and goliath rotating habitats the size of large asteroids, or warp-capable colony ships many kilometers in length and diameter to rapidly speed up the process of populating their colony worlds. There really is no excuse except that the universe never honestly considers the implications of it's own technologies, what really surprises me about the Vengeance in particular is how poorly armed it is for a ship with that much usable internal volume, it's been stated before that even the Enterprise D could pack in tens of thousands of photon torpedoes and not even really put a dent in it's gargantuan usable internal space. The Vengeance should be that kind of ship, it should be bristling with scores of those phaser-cannon ball turrets, it should have photon torpedo tubes or even turreted photon torpedo "guns" covering every angle of the ship, it should have emergency hatches to blow out it's own warp cores and torpedo magazines to prevent internal explosions from cooking off other volatile components inside it. It's actually an incredibly underpowered, undergunned ship considering it's size.
this is much better than a discovery
2yrs late but this is what I think. i think there is one thing everyone is missing, Khan said that the ship came from his mind.
Khan "Everything. Alexander Marcus needed to respond to an uncivilized threat in a civilized time, and for that, he needed a warrior's mind - my mind - to design weapons and warships."
the way I see it is, Khan is from the 1990's, the 80's and 90's are when it was thought that the bigger the better. khan has a huge ego, I believe he wanted vengeance for himself and his people, which is why the ship was designed for a small crew since his group was only 72. he would like the size of the ship and see it as powerful and intimidating to his enemies, his emperors status Flagship. the bridge being in the open is his ego believing he is like an emperor and would want to see his defeated below, kinda at his feet. he'd also want to see the battle above and below as he destroys anyone who opposes him. he believes he is so superior to any and all, is another reason the bridge is so open to attack, he wouldn't believe any enemy could succeed in targeting or destroying the bridge. as for the name, he could also have named it "Vengeance" as his vengeance for the normal humans defeating and exiling him in the 90's. that's just my opinion about why I believe Vengeance was made the way it is.
THIS
On the automation issue with it supposed to be commanded by 1 person I just remembered the TOS episode the Ultimate Computer where they were testing the M5 computer capable of commanding and operating a Constitution class ship (which wasn't designed to be automated) with a crew of 20. The episode also said that the Federation had unmanned robotic cargo ships that were described as quite old.
In JJ-verse, at warp, the Vengeance sounds like a whistle.
probably because of the hole in the saucer
Wouldn't make sense with no air. It just needed something for the movie experience.
🖖😎👍Very truly cool and very nicely greatly well done and very nicely informatively explained and executed in every detail way shape and form provided on the "U.S.S. Vengeance!"; And I myself own both the Hot Wheels and Eaglemoss Die-cast Models of it but it just doesn't truly scream true StarTrek Canon to me as per its design of the ship, It looks more like something that the Klingons would design in constructing a Starship for Starfleet as a combined crew alliance vessel!, Any ways a job very nicely wonderfully well done indeed Sir's!👌.
My father loved Star Trek, and by in large, my first introduction to Star Trek was the JJ verse. I love the JJ verse designs and love the designs from the other series as well.
The kelvin is actually tiny!, It's only the neycells that make it long!
I love this ship. Great idea on design!!
This thing is ridiculously op: type 12 phasers, swivel mounted torpedo launchers, extreme shields/armor and warp 12 speed
A ship that shouldn't be able to go that fast the warp scale goes to 9.99 that is it
To be fair to its size, the JJ Enterprise is the size of the Sovereign Class.
The placement for the cut out always reminded me of the captains yacht... makes me think it was the place where a dropship to dock would go
The reason behind making the ship so large was so that it could carry invasion forces or personnel needed at federation outposts.
The Vengeance has very similar proportions to the Ambassador class.
This ship is a mile long almost not even close to the enterprise c
@@sethcourtemanche5738 I don't think you know what the word 'proportions' means, it doesn't mean size.
LOL! I love how angry the Captain gets about this all. Too funny to watch.
That "reflected" view i think is an orthographic top view underneath a 3D model.
Dont know if anyone has pointed this out yet, The F117 is the night hawk. The blackbird is the SR-71
When you said "But Samuel it's an alternate universe" you sounded almost exactly like Grand Nagus Zek :p
Inconceivable!
Agree with both Comd Cokkings and Stuart Foley. 1) wrong size for a Starfleet ship in the Alternate TOS era. 2) no hole in the saucer section. the black paint job is fine.
@18:25
I think the view is reflected so you can see the bottom of the ship in 1 view. Actually kind of cool.
That big hole in the saucer section could be used to store a bunch of smaller ships. Just come into battle and SURPRISE, a bunch of ships pop out of the huge ship!
I love Capt Foley's expression throughout the entire review.
A possible explanation for The Nu Trek Constitution class ships i.e. the larger Enterprise was due to the Kelvin's encounter with the Narada, 15-18 years before NCC-1701 was commissioned. During Captain Robau's time on board the Narada the Kelvin did extensive scans of the massive unknown Romulan ship, and the data was either relayed to star fleet or transferred on to the escaping shuttles. Although star fleet engineer’s or (section 31) could not duplicate the 120 year advanced design simply from scans alone, they would have been able to partially reverse engineer some of the data to build larger star ships (the new Enterprise). In addition when the Narada's drill was severed and crashed into San Francisco bay, star fleet engineers now had the actual salvaged advanced future technology and materials. Also when the Enterprise destroyed the Narada they could have conducted more advanced detailed scans, or recovered some debris. This knowledge likely led to the construction of the USS Vengeance for the next film into darkness. I admit this is just a rationalization for these outrageously large ships.
always felt the middle section was meant for a modular design that can socket into it as and when it requires such modules.
The colours remind me of the azteching on the ships from TNG and the saucer is smooth like a galaxy.
I am looking forward to part two where you will hopefully cover that one particular gun that the Vengeance points at the Enterprise, and is about to fire at it. I also look forward to your own views about the bridge ofthe Vengeance.
I wish you guys would link to the part 2s. I usually see the part 1s in my suggested videos, then I have to go looking for the part 2. But sometimes I don't.
This was meant to fight klingons and it was so big to shock the enemies with its appearance and carry thousands of troops/ fighters should the need arise, serving also as a command center. So the big size makes a lot of sense!
LOL "look at the turd next to it" best part...
Like how these guys really think they know what military doctrine and what space combat would be like. There's many reasons for the size of the ship and other design choices, it's a command vessel it's supposed to be able to coordinate entire fleets as well as hold down entire sections of space with the JJ verse trans warp the vengeance could travel across the beta quadrant in very fast times the thing was clearly also meant to house several squadrons of fighters and shuttles most likely Even build them on spot this thing shows up into a system it's supposed to convince a population it's not even fight it's the Star destroyer of Star trek the military doctrine of Starfleet which at this point it was using was similar to the tarkin doctrine JJ Enterprise and vengeance are warships first and anything else second JJ verse also has a higher reliance on torpedoes and cannons than phaser strips, as well as the captain of the Calvin when entering the narada ended up getting interior deep scans of the ship sent it back to the Kelvin which transported it on another shuttle as well as when the Enterprise fought the narada they also scanned it therefore with cons mined and the scans from the narada they were able to create much better weapons and other technology such as portable transporters years before they should have.
If MIchael Bay made a Star Trek movie, this is what you would get. It's an exercise in mental gymnastics to try and reconcile this with carefully rationalized, well-thought-out designs. They really just wanted to make the biggest, most ridiculous thing possible to impress. The observation about the black hat v. white hat symbolism is spot-on, as is the strength-in-numbers argument that you guys make. It's a design best left forgotten.
It's big for a reason. Ship can be crewed by 1 if needed. The rest of the ship is Shields and Weapons. The bulk of the ship is computers. To fly with only a crew of 1 (if needed) would require A LOT of computing power. The ship is mostly computers thus justifying it's size.
Cockings hasn't mentioned saucer separation yet, i'm impressed.
Y'all need to do a Trekyards on the Nova-class!! That's my favorite class from all of Star Trek. :)
What? That shitty little science ship?
That "shitty little science ship" didn't get the screen time it deserved.. We only really saw the Equinox, but the Nova-class is basically a mini Intrepid-class. Not to mentioned, it's armed to the teeth! 11 phaser banks, and 3 torpedo launchers on a teeny tiny ship. #badass
+Eric Wiggins Defiant is better in terms of fighting, but yeah I see what you mean.
Cool story: both "in universe" and in real life, the design of the Nova-class was actually a preliminary design of the Defiant-class.
+Eric Wiggins Heh I remember reading the TNG Tech Manual in the 90s, and they had a blurb on future classes for Starships Enterprise, and one of the concepts they listed was called a "Nova Class", but it didn't resemble anything that made it to the screen. Someone working for Berman in the day really, really wanted to use "Nova" as a class name sooner or later
I’m pretty sure the “hyperspace” in the jj films was intended to be a new take on how transwarp looks, and then cbs screwed it up by putting it in disco ships.
The secondary hull has a kind of cockroach look to its shape. That's the insect vibe I get.
This discussion seemed less relaxed than normal lol
It's mentioned in dialogue that it's meant to be a prototype, so the intention of Marcus was to build more than one.
Also, the reflective view on the bottom of the LCARS looks like it's there to display damage to the bottom of the ship, as the red portions are in different spots from the top view.
The Vengence to me would fit in as Star Fleet Battle Ship if it were set somewhere during the dominion wars. With some scaling and design changes of course.
The Voyager looks so good. :)
I love Federation warships. This vessel is my cup of tea.
Makes me think of the Queen Alien versus Enterprise being a regular sized Alien.
the bottle opener is for all the beer vats on the Enterprise
I'd argue that the timeline has multiple divergences, starting with the whole Borg interference with the first warp flight. Enterprise takes place in that timeline and the Borg wreckage on Earth and the whole temporal cold war crazyness that kept showing up throughout the pre-Federation times probably screwed everything up more.
Think about how the Narada affected their thinking. After coming up against such a massive and dominant ship, they probably got scared that something similar might occur again. The Narada was damn imposing!
Thing about certain Star Trek fans is that just doesn’t fly with them because everything had to be tos
The Kelvin timeline is a branch of the Enterprise timeline which was split from the Prime timeline during the events of First Contact
How?
@@CapLP7800 well, in TNG they have no knowledge of the borg. Therefore, it would stand to reason that the borg were never encountered in that timeline before.
Now in first contact, you have the borg going into the past to stop Zefrom Cochran. The borg sphere is blown up and presumably crashes to earth.
In enterprise, they encounter the borg in the arctic. This creates a problem since they would have presumably had a way to study them and their technologies before TNG. Thus the TNG crew should have known about the borg. Hence a new timeline. The final episode of enterprise could have happened in the prime timepine due to the lack of borg and it being a holodeck simulation.
With the new borg tech it explains why the USS Kelvin looked less like the prime timeline and more like the "Kelvin Timeline"
Then when Nero's ship comes "back in time" with further advanced borg tech integrated with more traditional Romulan technology (albeit 150+ years into the future)
With their understanding of borg technology thanks to the sphere on Earth, they were able to integrate it into their current starships further influencing their scale and design
Edit: credit goes to another youtuber who posted a video on this theory. I just remembered it and found the logic to be sound, so I wrote it here.
However, the Federation Had Possessed Some Knowledge of the Borg Within the Prime Timeline. Yes, Enterprise (NX-01) Had Encountered The Borg, Having Assimilated the Researchers. However this Occurs Within Both Timelines. The Federation is Aware of the Borg Within the Prime Timeline, Take For Evidence Seven of Nine’s Parents. They Had Some Indication of the Borg’s Existence, Presumably Due to the Encounter Within Enterprise (The Show). For Your Theory to Function, Enterprise’s Encounter With the Borg Must Never Occur Within the Prime Timeline. Then Should it Never Have Occurred, Seven’s Parents Will Not Have Known of The Borg, Yet They Do. Thank You for Responding, I Had Not Expected Such.
@@CapLP7800it could be possible, however unlikely, that they discovered them independent of the Enterprise incident (many cities were taken on the neutral zone border whether or not it was the bog I dont remember). If this is true, my theory can still hold some water
Edit:this would explain starfleet's apparent and abundant lack of knowledge of them and their technologies
Edit 2: they could have discovered them and not known the specific details of them hence them not being common knowledge. Just the lack of defensive measures for protection against them is why I believe what I do. If the borg sphere wreckage was still at the pole, I doubt starfleet would have struggled as much as they did
I wonder what the Terran Empire version of this ship would look like and what weapon configuration it would have.
Even though the movie it originates from is definitely flawed, this design has grown on me a lot, especially after getting my hands on it in ST:O where it's not become my primary ship. Hell, it doesn't even feel out of place anymore in the much more militarized 25th century Star Fleet where they now openly produce warships
Another clear case of JJ's star destroyer envy.
When I first saw the ship,my first expression was,It looked like a big black Excelsior.
Even the NAME of the ship, VENGEANCE is soooooo un-Starfleet like. T_T
+TheCastellan Just wait for Captain that will tell you how his primary ship in STO is named. :D
+TheCastellan hmm yea. Thats what i was often thinking.
The only thing that was screaming at me when i saw the Vengeance was Section 31.
+TheCastellan Well keep in mind it wasn't built directly by Starfleet, it was built by Section 31.
That's because it's not a built by Starfleet.
agreed.
Everything about this ship although starfleet in shape all shows the signs of Section 31 on it.
The pannel guards on the Buzzards and Deflector Dish.
The big cannons mounted to the front underside of the saucer section and that buzzards but ridiculously odd and bizzar hole in the saucer section where the bridge is.
It’s 150 meters shorter than the imperial star destroyer, but I still really like it, though maybe I’d like it better in a later time period
This is is the only ship from the JJ-Verse that doesn't make me gag.
First seeing the Vengeance I awed at its presence, then I went "Oh, why's that there?" to that odd hole in the mid-section.
When I first saw images and clips then the movie scenes of the Vengeance my mind immediately thought "Excelsior?" I was gitty at the hope/thought it was the Excelsior.
+Captain Lokiawa well as Samuel and Stewart stated. When they mentioned insperations from stealth planes like the SR 71 Blackbird Spy plane. Theyre probbly right the hull is shaped that way to serve its purpose of reflecting sensor energy when in stealth mode its changing shape is often thanks to the Buzzard and Deflector guards that can open and close.
Oookay? I know and understand, I was just commenting on how I felt about the Vengeance when I first saw it on screen: from excited to whatever emotion is "Why is there a hole."
After watching Into Darkness a dozen times and learning about the ships reasons I understand but that hole still looks unattractive when I see the ship, its an eye catcher...
hmmm Now that you mention it. That strange hole in the center of the saucer is probbly up for more commenting about and scrutany than any other part of the ship itself.
Thanks for the vid, late to see, but gotta say I love the ship. It's got great angles and quite a looker. This is my cruiser in STO and I love it... XD I might get the JJ Enterprise, but eh...
Either way you bring up good points, and love your guys content, appreciate your work!
Oh and merry Christmas 2018!
Be interesting, if one scaled all the JJ ships down to Prime universe sizes, how would this dreadnought size up? Galaxy class?
in the first picture,if you cut away the saucer--it kind of looks like Serenity
You guys need to get passed the size issues between TOS and JJverse eras. As long as the ships look proportional to the other vessels in their respective timelines, there is no need to harp on the size difference each and every JJverse related video. TOS era died with Nemesis. Be happy the reboot was successful and seems to be holding. I know you two are passionate about this stuff, but you need to remember there are many people who are not, and the reboot was not a guaranteed success. Besides, I don't hear Godzilla fans complaining about how supersized he has become since his introduction.
The primary/secondary hull proportionality of this ship has always reminded me of the Enterprise D's proportionality, but with a more traditional hull/nacelle silhouette.
I agree with Stuart, the sizing is nothing to do with the Narada.
At least with the Kelvin( and some of the vulkan response fleet) the ship designs work for the sizes. The triple nacelle one was stupid.
I just assumed that the Vengeance was the size it was to act as a theatre of war capital ship. meaning it's a troop transport, medical ship, cargo transport, fighter carrier and so fourth.
i haven't seen a cutaway of the Vengeance so what's it look like inside
Voyager looks small enough to be a dropship to this class. Massive
actually... it makes sense since they face the Narada... a huge powerful ship
I like to think of the kelvin universe as a I between of the Terran empire universe and the OG universe as there is more of a mix of both. Kelvin starfleet seems more militaristic than the OG starfleet but less than the terrains. The vengeance is a show of this as it would never be thought up by an admiral of the federation but the terrans would go for a design like this in a heart beat.
I personally love the bad-assdom that comes with this ship, I don't exactly care that is wasn't in the right time for itself.
Usually when I watch trekyards I gain a new appreciation for the ships but the more I learn about all the jj ships just make me realize how ridiculous they are.
Naturally, the ship Trekkies are bound to hate the most is probably my favorite Trek ship... ugh I cant even stand watching you guys trashing it... XD
It's also an issue with the antagonist always appears more threatening on screen when the bad guys ship is larger. The David v Goliath drama...
Like the name, in my mind you would build 5 or 6 of these and have a fleet of smaller ships , to back these battleships up
refutation time: So JJ Verse - everything is bigger - future so bright you need shades - literally said by jj. That was the reason for the blingy enterprise bridge and all of the lensflare-gasm. So why is it this big? Well principally lets assume that we are maximizing the technology base of the era - pushing every limit. Well you're still using duotronic circuitry (whatever that is) and its not optronic or anything with biomemetic gel packs and whatever else. So to automate so much requires a large power plant, cooling systems (in space you only have the ability to radiate so your heat sinking has to be huge - which takes up a lot of space) and you have a fairly large data center that will be processing all of the sensors and you probably have some sort of Virtual Intelligence or Artificial Intelligence running most of the chores even with a normal compliment. Everything about this ship requires it to be large including one would assume the ability to haul around troops to land, huge hangars for fighter and assault craft as well as repair/maint cycles and presumably industrial scale replicators or at least on board 3-d printers that can fabricate entire sections of armored plate or unibody hulls for shuttles and such. Even automated production lines take time - hell this thing probably just recycles damaged stuff and prints new things from the recovered scrap.
All of this takes energy and your power supply keeps increasing even without the need for a huge crew. It is built to knock the Klingons into next week and not let them recover. It doesn't have to be everywhere at once because the Klingons will come to it and die for honor and stuff. Banging on about ToS era stuff not being so big is just silly because I'll bet if Gene could have re-imagined parts of it he might just make starships bigger. Space is a big place and to do it well you have to also go big. "It doesn't neeeeeed to be so big," you whine...well using the word need is just projection. How do you know? Starfleet has been learning harsher lessons sooner in this universe and Section 31 is codified in canon earlier than in ToS unless ofc you count the novel "Cloak". This thing can fire Phasers at warp. We don't see that ability until DS9/Voy - so that's a Khan enhancement and this thing has TNG era warp scaling apparently so anything and everything on the drawing board was put into actual production. Some of the bigness may come from the fact that some tech that allowed for Prime Universe stuff to stay smaller hasn't beeen developed yet so optronic technology could make the rest of the ship smaller.
So as to the damage - it has a MA/AM weapon go off in the interior - y'know a nuclear fucking explosion. Starships aren't designed for that regardless of anything else. I'm not surprised many systems all over the place were overloaded or blown out. I'm shocked that the back half of the ship wasn't simply blown off from that maneuver. So back to your apparent size issue - if other races (Romulans, Borg, Dominion and any number of Voy races we see) build bigger than the Federation in any era in Prime - why wouldn't this Fed simply build big regardless of the point of divergence.
There doesn't even need to be a point of divergence btw - simply that the black hole spit spock out back in time and space and the universe was already divergent regardless of whether or not Spock and the Narada went back. They didn't go back and create a parallel timeline - they simply went back and fucked with a timeline that was already parallel. Time travel has always been a bit murky in ST with very few hard rules in place and the writers joking about it straight through seven seasons of Voy. Just be glad no one turned into an amphibian and had sex in JJVerse.
Internally The JJVerse is consistant. Everything is bigger, faster and has more chrome and polish. They don't have the LCARS system because Okudagrams are terrible and we have better UI design ideas now anyhow and its easier for a mass audience to see a Tony Stark/Microsoft Table Surface inspired system. So its not all 1960's button and knobby with blinking lights - we're already past that crap in our own time so why throw back? It only makes sense if you wanna bore people to death with arcane, cryptic tech that went away with windows 3.1 or honestly DOS. My graphing calculator has a more high tech UI than the original enterprise so this kinda criticism serves no logical purpose. Hell I think the Phoenix in First contact was more advanced than ToS enterprise simply because of the conceit that technology and the idea of the future has moved on since 1960. Look at the stupid PADDs everyone uses in ST. Our iPads today are 10x more advanced and it wouldn't take much to give them satellite communications ability given another 250 years of advancement. I'm laughing that they still have the old flip communicators half the time. Why? They should have google glass - but as contact lenses and walk around with augmented reality all the time - literally deploy orbital probes and have full telemetry and topo maps wherever you go plus whatever support you can get from the ship. Their uniforms should have all kinds of wearable tech that is powered by the body heat and movement of the wearer.
I think you guys need to take Drexler's point of just throwing out the monkey brain and really get outside the comfort zone. The Vengeance is a fun ship that sort of points at where starfleet could go. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the next movie (#4) where we have the NCC-1701A run around that some of those advancements in tech aren't baked in...like phasers at warp and a rescaled warp system. In Beyond they even mention that the Enterprise A is the most advanced in the fleet. It will probably be bigger than even the original Ent. in the JJVerse by a decent margin. Also larger scaled ships artistically let you pack in so much more detail and that can be important in today's HD/UHD environment. Consider the cyborg guy we saw in the first two films. ToS never had any that looked that advanced despite Kirk running into many androids. Even Data in ToS was programmed in COBOL apparently since he had to keep running subroutines for everything. A JJVerse Data would appear similar but pack in a lot more tech - partly because we'd expect it. Hell even the fully functioning sex organs would be a great joke if Spock and Uhura were on another break and she decided she wanted some mandroid meat. The thing would probably spin, vibrate and send her into warp. This Kirk also got his captaincy like a decade ahead of ToS Kirk - and frankly is a better Captain since he isn't starfucking any more by the second movie. He might not ever settle down but I doubt this Kirk would abandon his family if he had one.
To take advantage of this theaters need to stop projecting and start putting up huge back lit HD panels so things don't get washed out. The Blu-ray editions are fantastic to watch for all of the color and detail you get.
#RantOver
Every time they call the Vengeance a Dreadnought, I look for the third nacelle. I am surprised the torpedo turrets weren't touched upon, but I guess that is the next segment. Good briefing though...
The Odyssey in STO is called a dreadnought cruiser.
Can someone explain to me. Why kirk was so surprised while vengeance catch them up in warp when we can see two ships fighting at warp even in enterprise series :D
because they jump away at max warp the enterprise was the flagship of the time had the most advanced tech in use, its a surprise since the vengeance had to out run them the vengeance had to have a whole warp factor on the enterprise, when the enterprise was one of the fastest ships of that time they didn't know that was possible
It's the RoboCop of StarFleet. You only need the one.
see this just as im about to have some breakfast. day made.
When I first saw it I only had one word.
KHHAANN ! ! ! (Shaking)
This ship opens all the bottles everywhere
the can opener comment had me in laughing my arse off . I agree its symmetrically designed better than the JJ prise. the JJ prise is bulbous in alot of areas. the nacelles look like zeppelins. another great trekyards . I happily await part 2.
I always thought of the vengeance as like either Bismark or Yamato one (or two) giant super battleships capable of taking on a whole enemy fleet on its own
This reminds of a ijn ship or kms ship just trek
It's more Tillman Battleship in star trek. Fits Kahn's MO. Unnecessarily large and armored... check, heavily armed... check, would be laughed at in any of the major powers of the Alpha/ Beta quadrant of the time except Romulans...... double check.
The Defiant would have no problem eradicating this vessel in a short time
Ya know this design would be great as a mirror universe Enterprise.
I never noticed the active LCARS behind Foleys right shoulder before, is that new?
Just a nitpick, but the Galaxy class is still the biggest ship in the fleet at the time of the Sovereign class debut. Ships should not be measured by length, but instead by volume as it is a 3-D object.
If it weren't for the Nemesis this ship will probably be smaller Starfleet ship scaled up in size after having to take on that massive vessel
I always figure the Abram relaunch ships just have to be lower technology. It takes much larger ships just to get the same power production and functional warp nacelles.