If only there were no Joker 1. Was a shit origin that undermined the character and even Batman trying to make it out that somehow what would be a near 50 year old weak uneducated loser was somehow going to be his nemesis for decades...Batman chasing a 70 year old Joker down Gotham streets pushing a walker...
I won't watch a movie that's not part of a trilogy. If this new Joker sequel is successful, there'll be another one and they'll say it was planned out as a three-part story the whole time.
I personally want a universe of some sort to follow, not a multiverse though. All I want is a film universe with no commenting on real world politics. I want an escape not a lecture. Also just be respectful to the source material.
Joker: Not the Joker to anyone that loves the Joker. Joker 2: A movie for the morons that actually liked Joker. Seriously. It is. Its very fitting to THAT character.
@@thomasjones4570indeed. I think the issue with these films is there are several factions of fans or interested parties. There's the Arthur Fleck Joker fans, who are not really DC fans at all, so they don't get that Arthur Fleck is clearly not the Joker. At best, his story is the type of tragic possible origin presented in The Killing Joke. Or, a fake sob story Joker tells to manipulate others. That is the only way one can consider it having anything to do with The Joker. I'm a comic book Joker fan, and this is obvious to me. I can't say that I'm impressed with how this sequel has turned out, as personally I would prefer they at least try to incorporate the actual character Joker, perhaps via the approach above. I think what they went with (Arthur is just a proto Joker/inspiration etc whatever) is somewhat the laziest way of resolving this issue. But, Todd never had any real interest in the actual Joker. It was always just a means to an end to greenlight the story he wanted to tell.
@@MidnightIsoldeI just left a comment on another video saying basically this. It’s a facepalm moment every time you hear people talk about how the first movie “deals with mental health”. First sign that the person saying that has no idea what they’re talking about and regurgitating talking points they don’t understand. If they really believed that, the local conclusion they’d walk away with is “mentally disturbed people have the right to murder everyone they want and we ought to be understanding of that”. Tangentially related, there’s a comic about some girl who is obsessed with Darth Vader and upon meeting him professes her love shortly before he runs her through with his lightsaber. Joker isn’t supposed to be sympathetic or understandable or even really have any backstory at all. He is ambiguous, random, violent chaos, and that’s what makes him so intriguing. His motives are only his to know if he even has any at all. It’s what makes him so scary, because if we understood how he thought we’d have some idea of who was at risk and who wasn’t, but with how random he is EVERYONE is equally at risk for no discernible reason other than being alive. The first movie was good for what it was, and especially as an alternate treatment about how a version of the joker might look like. But it’s far and away from THE joker. The people who confuse that concept out themselves quickly that they don’t understand what they’re trying to discuss with no self awareness about it
It is just called Joker, its not about The Joker we know from the comics. Thats probably why I didnt like it. I was expecting to see the beloved comic book character.
They made a movie with a sympathetic portrayal of a villain protagonist, got mad that audiences sympathised with him and then had him humiliated, SA’d and then killed off out of petty anger.
Sounds like the message is specifically aimed against lefties. Preprogrammed to keep lefties from thinking the system can be overcome, which it can't be. Nice. Except i would never watch it.
They realized the first movie was helping people wake up to how the government doesn't have your best interests in mind and how the system is rigged against us. A "certain" group of people liked it too much, so they had to make a "fuck you" in the form of a sequel, that tells people that the first movie is wrong, there is nothing you can do, that resistance is futile, and 'please god don't rise up against us'.
I’m sorry, this isn’t correct, completely. The facts remain that the absolute criminal behaviors of society still remain in this film. In fact, it’s even worse. While you are correct that it is completely in appropriate to showcase a YAY SERIAL KILLER film as you say, but that doesn’t mean you can’t play both sides. Ultimately, the death of Joker isn’t as a symbol of “forget about it,” as much as it clearly is about, “they’ll condemn me no matter what I say.” The point wasn’t ever really about ‘Joker’ as much as it was about just a guy who has really been dealt one of the worst hands in life imaginable. Just think about it, people are still shitty if not 10x times worse in this Joker. His literal first fucking love of his ENTIRE LIFE INCLUDING FROM PARENTS DUMPS HIM FOR NOT UNDERTAKING SOME FACADE. It was never just about “yay joker,” and was 100% about martyring why ‘bad’ people do ‘bad’ things. This was never some heroic bs that everyone including the fans hype it up to be, it was much more just the most sad shit to see and not for the people Arthur effects nooooo. Arthur himself is a perfect example of what happens to a real hero. Real martyrs have the most tragic stories for enduring what they did but nevertheless staying true. And based on laws made hundreds of years ago a guy like Arthur is condemned? Is that what the movie portrays? Absolutely not. It stays true to that narrative that yknow what, he’s the least crazy person imaginable when EVERY SINGLE PERSON INVOLVED IN HIS LIFE IS THE EXACT CAUSE OF WHAT HE DID BECAUSE THEY DID NOTHING WHEN THEY COULD HAVE DONE ANYTHING. Loved this movie sorry. I was so nervous they wouldnt knock this one out the park but holy shit they did. Bravo
The media industry HATES that the first movie was such a success, because that movie holds the media industry accountable for the monsters they created themselves. So they made a sequel, to destroy the original and to try to "educate" people on why refusing to serve society no matter how it treats you is wrong.
Exactly, this film only serves to underline the futility of Arthur's journey which, spoiler alert, ends in him being killed by a copycat. I've honestly never seen the media so utterly terrified of a movie since the first movie.
@@derek96720honestly that’s underselling it, Arthur gets humiliated, goes back on his entire character arc from the first film, gets SA’d, then killed. They’re not trying to “educate” people who got the wrong idea from the first film, they’re punishing them with malicious intent.
Always has been that way. Joker is all plot armor and “woah gois I’m craaaazy!” With a a cheap way of never having a back story “muh multiple choice” because the writers suck. Penguin is a short out of shape ugly guy and has to compensate through being ruthless cunning gangster. Jack Nicholson and Heath ledger were cool af because they weren’t the lame jobber he is in the comics
what this movie needed was the Joker vs Gotham, the people are not on his side, the criminals are. Gordan is a young cop, maybe he just pops in, but this sets up the scene to a really broken gotham in the future, one thats needs.. BATMAN.
I think the director doesn't even like Batman or its characters; he just used the Joker to make a movie he wanted to make, but it might not have been as popular if it wasn’t about Batman's most iconic villain.
I feel like this film was built to enrage the audience, because it’s not for them: it’s for the studio. And it’s a giant middle finger. Guess Todd Philips had the last laugh.
it sucks too because the idea of tackling the concept of "hey incells took the wrong message from the first movie" would've been interesting to explore... instead we got a musical
no you guys all just wanted like a chaotic joker whilst this joker is literally just a mentally disturbed person and how after his spree he would be charged and the fact that is a musical just shows more of his delusion like johnny charisma in arkham knight like i’ll say it’s too long and i wish there was more lady gaga harley stuff but i thought it was pretty good ur just watching his internal spiral the first movie is in his perspective but mostly third person
If he torpedoed his career like Joel Schumacher did after Batman and Robin, I'm not that sure he got that last laugh... Or, he won't be laughing for some time now, seeing our rejection of his rejection of the audience/his first film.
@@clarence9379 I’m saying Joker 2 isn’t canon to Joker 1 and only Joker 1 is that universe. Because Joker 2 sucks. I wasn’t saying it was connected to a larger universe.
@@TheDarkLasombrayou’re dumb. It doesn’t matter if this one makes money it was made to spite the chuds that looked up to the gayker in the first shitty movie. Now anyone with a tatt or anything joker related will be repping a mentally ill loser who gets beaten, dumped, humiliated, graped, and then killed
Willem Dafoe should’ve been an imposter joker and film about Arthur and him trying to one up each other the entire movie to see who’s the REAL Joker to the rest of Gotham.
@@TheZodiacRipper yes. And his dynamic with Phoenix would’ve been amazing. And throughout the movie we would question if Arthur is gonna actually be the real joker or if Willem will possibly kill him and take the mantle once Batman eventually exists. You could subvert it in any way. What if Arthur kills Dafoe’s copycat? What if they both die, and the film ends with a third person becoming a Joker? What if Dafoe’s Joker is Jack Napier and at the end of the film when Arthur defeats him by throwing him into a Acid tank and supposedly kills him the film ends with Dafoe’s hand reaching out all deformed and a pale white color, cutting to black and him cackling?
The scene with the wannabe "Joker" laughing at Arthur as he dies and carves his face doesn't work because it just feels like a 12 year olds fanfiction of something the Joker would do. Joker laughing as he gets beat up and thrown in a prison cell, THAT is Joker. That is 100x closer to what the Joker is supposed to be than anything else in this whole movie. Phoenix's Joker is the only authentic one, even if they want to take this angle of "not the real Joker" with it.
@@ajscrewu That's funny. As soon as I heard it was going to be a musical I immediately wrote it off. If there was any chance of convincing me. Hearing Lady Gaga was in it put the final nail in the coffin. Based on what I hear so far. Not missing out on much anyway.
if only John had taken his own advice and left his book about the holocaust with one of the main plot points being “no german knew about these atrocities!!” in his drafts.
I personally liked the fan theory from when the movie first came out that Arthur wasn’t the *true* joker. But would instead inspire someone a lot more crazy with criminal aspirations to become the eventual enemy of Batman. But it should have been ambiguous, maybe have that guy show up and tell Arthur a joke, but instead of killing him it ends on them both laughing hysterically or something idk.
So they destroy his character that was built up in the first movie, say he’s not the “real Joker”, get graped by the guards essentially emasculated horrifically, and butchered to death. Man, Hollywood really wanted that first movie to be destroyed because they hated how they showed how a man can also suffer in this world horribly without anyone to help him & how the system is rigged against us. F**k this movie and all it stands for I’m so mad I have a tattoo of the first movie on my forearm with Arthur smoking then him dancing down the stairs. Oh well, at least it’s a reminder of how beautiful the first one was.
at least heath ledger comes back at the end to remind us that the type of person most likely to become a real joker is a GWOT veteran who no longer gives an F
Virtually everyone knew that the first film was a lightning in a bottle, and it was built so as not to have a sequel. And it is apparent that Todd Phillips knew it all as well, hence why he made it a musical probably. But they didn't have to ruin the first movie by confirming people's worst suspicions and destroying Arthur as a character. It is just one of those things where everyone involved should have responded with a resounding "No" to WB. I feel particularly bad for Joaquin Phoenix, who specifically wanted a character-driven film back in 2019, and now his character is revealed to be flat as a pancake, and he himself gets nothing to work with. Such a waste of his immense talent.
It was built as a REMAKE and had some DC tossed in it to prop it up. It was ass as a Joker movie but would have been a great film about a guy going insane without it. That movie made for a shit Joker.
@@mariasol1545What was the wrong message they took? The only message people took from the movie was “hey yeah my life sucks too and it feels like society ignores my pain”, which is true for most men and people in general. It’s a rotten age
after interviewing Todd Phillips I come to learn that it was the plan from the very beginning to create a "human " Joker, then later have the "REal" more non-human Joker emerge out of the woodwork and take over....a pretty clever origin story. Too bad lotta people did not like it though....hahaha🤣
i absolutely loved this flick and acknowledge, that it has a lot of flaws, but the hollywood cash grab narrative really makes me question, if we saw the same movie
@@man.itz.ashton the end of the first movie led many viewers to believe, that this would lead to a more traditional joker, but its really more about arthur and the effect, that the first movie had, on general audiences. i could go deeper than that, if i went into spoiler theory, but ill respect your stance and just say this...if you empathized with arthur fleck in the first one and dont go in, with the expectation of getting more joker, or even a comic book movie, you might enjoy it. the biggest argument against someone watching it, is that the story takes an active stance against glorifying jokers actions, in the first movie
@@fabianhammer2864 I did enjoy arthurs story about a man with problems who's been thrown aside by society I really like the first one and don't even see it as that's the green hair guy from Batman so I think I'll prob like the new one imma go see it tonight
Talk about destroying a movie just like that, the fact that the original movie is so well regarded and Joaquin Phoenix was such a great Joker, it astounds me at how badly this movie failed especially with the ending
@@vidmikes I mean Joaquin Phoenix won an oscar for his performance, which is the entire movie, It is overrated considering King of Comedy and Taxi Driver were better movies, but this movie was something unique in the superhero genre and Joaquin performed his most popular role by far
@@Arcessitorno, dude. Can't tell someone that because they enjoyed a film they're wrong because it doesn't agree with your opinion. I didn't think it was amazing or anything, but grow tf up and understand that not everyone thinks the exact same thoughts as you do. FFS man.
Todd Phillips had NEVER intended to do a Batman movie.. and was pissed we loved the first..so this is him trying reverse that..😂 hes the Joker, tragic fool
In my eyes it never was. I hated it as a Joker movie and would have loved every second of it if they had removed anything DC in it because that sure as fuck is not the Joker.
@@thomasjones4570this is true. At best, the Arthur Fleck story is a loose grounded version of something like the possible Joker backstory in The Killing Joke. Or, a variation of a number of sob stories Joker tells to manipulate people (Mad Love; The Dark Knight; some other examples in various comics too). But, we do not know which, if any, are true. The first Joker film at least ended with this possibility still, depending on how you interpret the final scene. But, doing a sequel was always going to create a serious problem as they'd either have to commit to having Arthur be the Joker. Or, somehow reveal that he isn't. They chose the latter, and the manner of doing is clearly the most divisive way possible.
@@MidnightIsolde Nope. This "Joker" does not come close to matching any existing Joker origin story. Pete Holmes said it best. "Nothing, is better than this" and he showed how every single plot point is lame...with...jokes.
It had to be destoryed because the first film was liked by the 'wrong people' so they had to destroy it. So they make a film that was specifically the antithesis of the first film's 'fans'.
Joker 1 was a fantastic film. Joker 2 should have been more about the world of Gotham and how a figure like the Joker defined it. This version is just a failure and the movie maker seems to hate the fans of the first one.
The scene Joker calls Gaga out for “making it all about herself” and the scene where he told her “stop singing and just talk to him” are just two times Joker broke the fourth wall to warn us that the Joke is on us. There are many more instances mocking the fans of the first movie like Arthur not recognizing his own joke about the dead drunk driver when Gaga said it (as her origin story) is reminiscent of the fact that the director here clearly did not recognize what made the original (Joker’s origin story) good.
'Napoleon' soured me on Phoenix, even soured me retroactively on his previous work. What once looked like great acting now looks like self-indulgent over-acting.
I've had similar thoughts tbh. Made me think he is not capable of playing anything that is not pensive, introspective, depressed navel gazing as that is how he played Napoleon too and it was quite wrong for that historical figure. And, in this context, it made me think that Phoenix would not be suitable to playing a real Joker, despite possessing the physicality as he is too wedded to the oh so sad story of Arthur Fleck.
I don't even think a sequel would've been that bad if they had decided to stick with him ACTUALLY being the Joker. He's not the most intelligent Joker, but the mere fact that he was able to convince people he's some kind of symbol in the first film would've been an awesome continuation for a sequel, especially if Harley and him teamed up with goons from Arkham and broke out. Instead, apparently Phillips and Silver are trying to "trick" who they believe to be "incels" that saw the first movie into seeing this second movie. Maybe even trying to guilt the fans of that first movie into believing that they are some sort of "problem" for enjoying a character piece about a clearly mentally deranged man. I hope it bombs so hard.
'Can you make a sequel?' 'I had an idea that it could be a mockumentary...' 'Yeah, we want you to mock all the men. Make it a musical. Here's $200m.' And that's how it went down.
The Matrix didn't have "gas left in the tank". The story was complete and the main characters had all reached the logical conclusions of their journey, that's why the sequels felt so directionless. The cinematography, soundtracks and action scenes were fantastic, but the war with the machines and Zion were just background details in the story of the Matrix, not the focus of it. The Animatrix was far more creative than the sequels because it gave us new stories and characters within that universe.
yeah idk wtf you're talking about, the matter of humanity's freedom was still a massive question mark at the end of the first movie as I recall. to say there wasn't "gas left in the tank" is ridiculous lol
@@ZellthanAgreed lol. The first 3 movies are just fine. Obviously the first is the best, but the trilogy as a whole told a great story and character development that reached a satisfying conclusion imo. Where they lost me was with Matrix Resurrections… now that was an absolute dog shit move land I wish they had just left it alone lmao. But yeah this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about if he said nobody wanted more after the first Matrix 😂 like WHAT
honestly imo: she kinda carried the movie and really brought in a weirdly confused super fan of the joker. I think the movie itself is bad, but she acts her role out amazingly and id say considering the story, this wasnt that easy
That IS EXACTLY what I think. The tiitle means: delusion or mental illness shared by two people in close association - "a classic case of ". Alternatively, in English, means: lack of good sense; foolishness - "an act of sheer folly". He is trolling Hollywood and the Studio, for sure.
Yeah cause that's what they decided to do. They only subtly hint that she went to school for psychiatric help, but she doesn't do anything with it. She doesn't do anything. She just commits herself to meet him and then she follows him around for a while until she hates him.
The most baffling part of Joker 2 is that it features boring courtroom drama. Even shows like Ally McBeal, Boston Legal, and (God forgive me) The Practice had plenty of zany courtroom plots on a shoestring budget.
The MCU may be going through some problems, but the DCEU universe is just terrible at making sequels like Wonder Woman 1984 miss, Shazam 2 miss, Aquaman 2 miss, and now this.
As someone who worked on production of five musicals in high school, I'll say: HARD PASS. The original left us with a message. It was the origin of The Joker. TBC in Batman. Musicals are pretentious, and not for the most of us that just wanna see a MOVIE about a villain origin. And we got that the first time. Make it into a stage play if they want Gaga dance numbers.
To be honest I knew a second film for Joker would be bad but I thought there was hope. Such a shame, I really wanted them to exceed expectations. Also love the CM Punk shirt.
If this movie was good people would stop saying we didn't need another one. Because we wanted one just not a freakin musical, that has no world building, or character building. This movie script was not for the fans of the first movie.
Like I said before Joker nothing without Batman! Robin nothing without Batman. Penguin nothing with Batman. The only reason people watching Penguin now is because it has similarities to Sopranos!
Good, but you lose the right to have an opinion or to say something about the movie because you didn't watch it. And no, taking the personal opinion of a youtuber as yours doesn't count
Thumbnail: It didn’t have to be this way! Todd Phillips: I had no choice! Times have changed, good movies aren’t enough anymore. But writing bad musicals?! I’ll write a thousand shitty musicals before I let this franchise die! And I’ll silence any fan that gets in my way!
@@JoakimOtamaa it’s not an official sequel. It’s a comedy so don’t take it seriously. It’s not really canon despite connections and characters like X23 in it. It’s just a plot device.
@@ParkerCS2 I was just messing with you. The New Mutants show some scenes from Logan so that was kinda sequel spin off too. That movie was horrendously ass.
Progressive commenters love to pretend that media creates armies of brainwashed enemies. This is mostly fantasy. Like Fight Club or Starship Troopers. I've personallly seen dozens of progressive people in my life moan about the armies of misogynists they imagine these movies created. Never met those supposed armies though. I have met tons of men who identified way too much with the main character, in terms of mental illness and falling into dangerous habits, and it's so convenient these men get lost in the narrative. I also tried to start a positive website for men to deal with their mental health. Even though I only had a dozen subscribers, I was quickly knee deep in what I can only describe as resembling federal agents trying to pose as hot women to gain your confidence. Everyone on that website was quickly doxxed and driven from their daily life. I can't say who was behind it. But I can tell you any website that tries to be a positive space for men gets these doxxers crawling all over it. Meanwhile figures like Andrew Tate got frontpage on the New York Times and Wall to Wall CNN coverage. I'm not saying they're related... But it is weird who gets all the media attention, versus who gets quietly knifed in silence.
Its much deeper than that. People don't just universally attatch to characters like that, he represented a certain type of lower class frustration that had gone ignored for a very long time on the big screen. Its amazing it even exists at all.
Someone said this should of been a movie of Joker just thinking all this movie in his head. Him not being the real Joker in the end is stupid. Money will always talk and it’s the only reason this was made.
Joker 2 felt like it was made out of spite, like, “you weren’t supposed to like it, so we’ve got to make a sequel that flips the metaphorical table now!”
They should have make a movie about how Joker form his gang and start become the notorious crime boss, End up with him facing the Batman then it's begin the obsession with him and the bat.
This would just not fit arthur. He has nothing to do with batmans joker and i dont think someone could push arthur to become the real joker. I like arthur like he is.
What I see in this joker is that he isn't a crime boss. He's just a person that inspires people around him accidentally. I loved the scene where he returns and the whole prison is cheering him on, getting into a riot. I think this movie could of been good if it continued from that, where he tears down the injustice of the guard's just because they see the injustice within, maybe bring attention to it during trial. That's what I think would of been a more interesting direction. He himself doesn't really try to bring down the prison. Just the same way he doesn't try to create the riots in Gotham in the first movie, he just killed 3 people that were harassing him.
Batman was 10 years old in the first movie, this universe doesn’t need Batman. They could have took inspiration from Bonnie and Clyde and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
Joker 8/10 Joker 7/10 The original is better but not a 9/10 because it's not an original film but a great idea 💡 Take "King of Comedy" & "Taxi Driver" and have the Joker as the main character. Great premise but the film is derivative. Just what would the Joker do in those situations.
Here is my pitch for Joker 2: If you really have to. Arthur realises how much joy destruction brings to the people on the street, the people he feared due to him being different. He tries out what he can get away with. Some assaults, theft, with an ever growing crew around him. His own audience. His own family. He learns how to weave around people, get them to be his punchlines in ever more twisting humour. Have it finish on him faking to blow up the governors office while banging lady gaga publicly, who isn't harley quinn but a Broadway dancer/singer, who got fascinated with the stories of the jokers miss deeds. Gagas dancer actress gets shot. Then he gets thrown into Arkham. Where he meets... Her very alike looking counterpart that is a serious therapist, also acted by gaga. Done. Next one can be where he twists harley quinn into the person he wants her to be, more like his first one that loved his mayhem. But she makes him more brutal over time yada yada. Maybe i should work in hollywood. I like it better already.
I thought it could be interesting if joker 2 starts out with him in Arkham, but he gets out cuz the guards/ Harley Gaga view him as a rebellious hero. Harley Gaga introduces him to his fans, and Joker realizes he can manipulate people these people that view him as this hero, and he becomes a Charles Manson like figure, basically controlling a Joker cult.
Joker 3: manage é tois a musical comedy with Nicky as Harley in which the joker in 2 is killed by a 3rd joker who does Arthur's dance but better because it's ethnic.
I cannot comprehend the massive popularity of the first Joker movie. I was expecting a story of a guy beaten down by the society who went over the edge into some mystical union of opposites, the iconic chaotic evil. Instead I got a pathetic story of a brain-damaged reject, not even an anti-hero, that became the symbol of a civic unrest by pure accident. Hearing that they made the sequel a musical seems like a bet to make it as bad as possible to see if the public is going to glamorize that too.
Phillips acknowledges that characters like Joker have consequence, because you do have the followers who aren’t just cosplaying for fun, like Lee, but will seriously misunderstood and “take the joke too far” so to speak. Playing a “Joker” creates a Joker. You become part of a cycle of violence and unrest. And it’s not cool. You don’t go out a legend, or a hero. You’re forgotten on a cold floor. So. Don’t admire people like this. Don’t act like this. That’s why Phillips doesn’t even really show the new Joker. He doesn’t want to give the kid “a moment” or treat him as special or important. He’s not the heir but the conclusion. A period rather than an exclamation point. "As a man, I'm flesh and blood, I can be ignored, I can be destroyed; but as a symbol...as a symbol I can be incorruptible, I can be everlasting." - Bruce Wayne/Batman.
the deadpool and wolverine pfop makes this better because it's the type of movies todd hates beating him box office,critic and audience wise. joker 2 "you took everything from me" deadpool and wolverine "i don't even know who you are"
2 hours ago Harley Quinn was inspired by Clarice from Silence of the lambs. They had a perfect setup to make her the reason for the sequel. She should have been the TV psycologist from the Batman animated series. Harley should have been the protagonist and have Arthur as a supporting role. IT WAS LOW HANGING FRUIT RIPE FOR THE PICKING! G-damn-it!!!!!!!!
"It's a visual medium too" What !??? Of course it is, it's a movie. Visual, cinematography, shots, it's of #1 importance. For a book, the #1 is the writing, for a song the #1 is the music, for a meal the #1 is the taste. Perfect now we know
i knew it , since the original took alot from Taxi driver and King Of Comedy . the second one struggles to stands on it feet since there is nothing to ripoff
They should’ve just went full Joker and Harley and won, that’s it, nobody wants to see realistic shit in a fucking DC hero/villain movie. It reminds me of Velma, you just wanted to make a different movie, but used Joker as a mask for people buy tickets. But this wasn’t Joker, and that wasn’t Scooby Doo
@TheSmokeWatcher Marvel doesn't openly hate their fans tho. They'll give us an Eternals and then give us Deadpool & Wolverine as an apology. WB and DC never apologize, they just keep doing bullshit
The first film made Arthur Fleck into a spectacle for the marginalized. Taking on the persona of the Joker, he was made into a martyr for the people. Yet despite becoming an icon to the world, Joker 2 delves into how the audience never really saw Arthur for who he truly was: sick and helpless. The people make Arthur into a performer for them, the jury makes a fool out of him, and Harley abuses him. While this film isn't a good representation of the comic book villain Joker, Todd Phillips does a great job at expressing society's desire to make martyrs out of mentally ill people. Feeding on the sick and helpless in order to fulfill self serving pleasures. Ultimately, the joke is on the audience. And the theatergoers, wanting to see Arthur to reach a status of glory, are left disappointed when he becomes a victim of their own fantasies
I don't think people actually got what this film was about. I thought it was so deep and interesting. Yes, maybe the musical aspect was a bit much, but it was just great. It did not deconstruct him. The movie put arthur fleck in front of joker and showed he was too weak to hold the joker. So the joker passed to the next guy, like the red hood.
Upon reading an article, i think variety, in which Philps boasts about gaming the system and studios to ride the super hero genre, then completely backstab everyone so he could make his version of taxi driver. Lets face it, thats all joker was, a remake of taxi driver. They should have actually made harley a part of the 1st film. Something where she plays him and humiliates him on live tv which then results in him shooting de niro and harley. She survives but gets brain damage / amnesia and then totally becomes obsessed with joker
I blame all YOU fanboys’n’girls & commenters/critics of the first JOKER movie who drowned the film in melodramatic praise/criticisms regarding its important or provocative “portrayal of modern society and its treatment of those lost in the cracks of our mental health system who fail them”.. BLAH BLAH BLAH. It was all of YOU who ruined the standalone beauty of the first ‘JOKER’ movie- I repeat: MOVIE! You artificially attached some grand higher level of importance to the film and its supposed message, and THAT is why it became the target of those who wish to wield art as a club to beat the public over the head with. Anything original and beautiful- subvert it, destroy it; then capture it, “reimagine” it. Parade the new and improved withered soulless husk around for all to see. Yes, YOU all asked for this.
The pace was slow, the movie was long, nothing happened, there were way too many songs, the courtroom scenes were either exposition or a flashback to the first movie, Arthur reverted to who he was at the start of the first movie, Harley was barely in the movie and only existed to be an obsessed fan of the Joker persona. It was all around terrible.
You missed one other positive point.
There will be no Joker 3.
There also didn’t need a Joker 2. Joker is still just that 2019 film. Folie a Deux is not canon.
THIS IS A SPOILER
Technically he is in Batman 2 but I felt like saying it to correct the record.
@@ParkerCS2cope and sneed
If only there were no Joker 1. Was a shit origin that undermined the character and even Batman trying to make it out that somehow what would be a near 50 year old weak uneducated loser was somehow going to be his nemesis for decades...Batman chasing a 70 year old Joker down Gotham streets pushing a walker...
The ending of this movie fucking sucks
Second movie should have been Joker causing mayhem and nothing else. No trial, no musicals, no bs
And maybe had Willem dafoe as the imposter joker and Arthur’s rival for legitimacy. An loose adaptation of the 3 Jokers.
AND NO GIRL BOSS TRASH
I honestly liked William Dafoes idea of a film where there is a copy cat joker committing crimes and Phoneix character is trying to find him
They could had added Batman at the end.
I really like the idea of there being a trial for the first half of the film. But a musical.. Bloody hell
We want standalone films. We’re tired of franchises and cinematic universes. Not everything needs a sequel.
should have escaped from Arkham and it should be him always on the run from the police and destroying shit
said the tired consumer
Hollywood doesn't care, they only answer "MONEY!"
I won't watch a movie that's not part of a trilogy. If this new Joker sequel is successful, there'll be another one and they'll say it was planned out as a three-part story the whole time.
I personally want a universe of some sort to follow, not a multiverse though. All I want is a film universe with no commenting on real world politics. I want an escape not a lecture. Also just be respectful to the source material.
Joker: a story about a man who descends into Madness and becomes the Joker.
Joker 2: let's undo all that and make a courtroom musical 🤗
Joker: Not the Joker to anyone that loves the Joker.
Joker 2: A movie for the morons that actually liked Joker. Seriously. It is. Its very fitting to THAT character.
@@thomasjones4570indeed. I think the issue with these films is there are several factions of fans or interested parties.
There's the Arthur Fleck Joker fans, who are not really DC fans at all, so they don't get that Arthur Fleck is clearly not the Joker. At best, his story is the type of tragic possible origin presented in The Killing Joke. Or, a fake sob story Joker tells to manipulate others. That is the only way one can consider it having anything to do with The Joker. I'm a comic book Joker fan, and this is obvious to me.
I can't say that I'm impressed with how this sequel has turned out, as personally I would prefer they at least try to incorporate the actual character Joker, perhaps via the approach above. I think what they went with (Arthur is just a proto Joker/inspiration etc whatever) is somewhat the laziest way of resolving this issue. But, Todd never had any real interest in the actual Joker. It was always just a means to an end to greenlight the story he wanted to tell.
@@MidnightIsoldeI just left a comment on another video saying basically this. It’s a facepalm moment every time you hear people talk about how the first movie “deals with mental health”. First sign that the person saying that has no idea what they’re talking about and regurgitating talking points they don’t understand. If they really believed that, the local conclusion they’d walk away with is “mentally disturbed people have the right to murder everyone they want and we ought to be understanding of that”.
Tangentially related, there’s a comic about some girl who is obsessed with Darth Vader and upon meeting him professes her love shortly before he runs her through with his lightsaber. Joker isn’t supposed to be sympathetic or understandable or even really have any backstory at all. He is ambiguous, random, violent chaos, and that’s what makes him so intriguing. His motives are only his to know if he even has any at all. It’s what makes him so scary, because if we understood how he thought we’d have some idea of who was at risk and who wasn’t, but with how random he is EVERYONE is equally at risk for no discernible reason other than being alive. The first movie was good for what it was, and especially as an alternate treatment about how a version of the joker might look like. But it’s far and away from THE joker. The people who confuse that concept out themselves quickly that they don’t understand what they’re trying to discuss with no self awareness about it
True. It was horrific.
@@bigblue207the film was a courtroom.musical. if you use the joker character then you need to deal with it.
Arthur gets prison raped into not wanting to be joker anymore, harley abandons him, then he gets shanked by the real joker
So they broke the "joker" in him? The "world" won at the end?
This movie is a humiliation ritual
Wait hold on does this acually happen in the film ?
@@Lifeoftheparty8290 yes but its spoiler
@@Lifeoftheparty8290 WORD FOR WORD BAR FOR BAR
Joker should've Remained a Solo Film.
It is just called Joker, its not about The Joker we know from the comics. Thats probably why I didnt like it. I was expecting to see the beloved comic book character.
Ya that's what the creators wanted too
Welcome to cooperate greed
or give us Batman if you are going add someone to sequel
and it should have been called something else lol. that wasn't a real joker movie
I used to think that my life was a tragedy, but now i realize it's a fckn' musical.
-Arthur 2024
😂😂😂😂😂
The first movie seemed plausable because noone knew who he was how can you have a realistic villian if everyone knows who he is
They made a movie with a sympathetic portrayal of a villain protagonist, got mad that audiences sympathised with him and then had him humiliated, SA’d and then killed off out of petty anger.
lol yeah that is totally what Murray gets for singing too much hahaha🤡
They literally did what the society and wayne did to him in part 1, Literally the same shit only it's the directors.
Insane irony
Sounds like the message is specifically aimed against lefties. Preprogrammed to keep lefties from thinking the system can be overcome, which it can't be. Nice. Except i would never watch it.
Yeah, that’s really weird and stupid
Like this is YOUR creation, dude
Why would you do that?
Obviously because they realized that what happened to murray might actually happen to them
They realized the first movie was helping people wake up to how the government doesn't have your best interests in mind and how the system is rigged against us.
A "certain" group of people liked it too much, so they had to make a "fuck you" in the form of a sequel, that tells people that the first movie is wrong, there is nothing you can do, that resistance is futile, and 'please god don't rise up against us'.
The irony is that, by trying to make this beloved storyline propaganda, they're proving the system is indeed rigged against us.
This is another movie funded and pushed by the CIA, truth in plain sight with " the world is a stage"
I’m sorry, this isn’t correct, completely. The facts remain that the absolute criminal behaviors of society still remain in this film. In fact, it’s even worse.
While you are correct that it is completely in appropriate to showcase a YAY SERIAL KILLER film as you say, but that doesn’t mean you can’t play both sides.
Ultimately, the death of Joker isn’t as a symbol of “forget about it,” as much as it clearly is about, “they’ll condemn me no matter what I say.” The point wasn’t ever really about ‘Joker’ as much as it was about just a guy who has really been dealt one of the worst hands in life imaginable.
Just think about it, people are still shitty if not 10x times worse in this Joker. His literal first fucking love of his ENTIRE LIFE INCLUDING FROM PARENTS DUMPS HIM FOR NOT UNDERTAKING SOME FACADE.
It was never just about “yay joker,” and was 100% about martyring why ‘bad’ people do ‘bad’ things.
This was never some heroic bs that everyone including the fans hype it up to be, it was much more just the most sad shit to see and not for the people Arthur effects nooooo.
Arthur himself is a perfect example of what happens to a real hero. Real martyrs have the most tragic stories for enduring what they did but nevertheless staying true.
And based on laws made hundreds of years ago a guy like Arthur is condemned? Is that what the movie portrays? Absolutely not. It stays true to that narrative that yknow what, he’s the least crazy person imaginable when EVERY SINGLE PERSON INVOLVED IN HIS LIFE IS THE EXACT CAUSE OF WHAT HE DID BECAUSE THEY DID NOTHING WHEN THEY COULD HAVE DONE ANYTHING.
Loved this movie sorry. I was so nervous they wouldnt knock this one out the park but holy shit they did. Bravo
Damn bruv, you should really shave that neckbeard, you know...
That's absurd.
The media industry HATES that the first movie was such a success, because that movie holds the media industry accountable for the monsters they created themselves. So they made a sequel, to destroy the original and to try to "educate" people on why refusing to serve society no matter how it treats you is wrong.
Exactly, this film only serves to underline the futility of Arthur's journey which, spoiler alert, ends in him being killed by a copycat. I've honestly never seen the media so utterly terrified of a movie since the first movie.
@@derek96720honestly that’s underselling it, Arthur gets humiliated, goes back on his entire character arc from the first film, gets SA’d, then killed. They’re not trying to “educate” people who got the wrong idea from the first film, they’re punishing them with malicious intent.
no, it was just greed to make some $$$
That first part is utter nonsense. The second part, I dunno. A musical is a very odd and idiotic choice for this kind of material.
Lol it's not that deep. They just didn't know whether to go full musical or not
Dont worry im sure Jok3R: A silent film will be an amazing 4 hour experience....
I can’t 🤣🤣🤣
Or how about Joker 3D?
Fant4stic ahh title
Hahah don't give them ideas....
It will also be black & withe and it will actually be a silent COMEDY movie about The Joker on Walmart
As soon as I heard it was gonna be a musical I knew it wasn’t gonna live up to the first. It’s just such a bizarre choice.
Just from the clips, it seems like they were trying to make their own musical "Chicago".
Bizarre is the perfect description. What were they thinking?
@@sarasunshinemt4444 I've been informed that Chicago kicks ass.
All of it stems from the Director seeing Phoenix improv a dance in the first movie and he thought it was the greatest thing he's ever seen.
Same
We live in a Society, where The Penguin is a better written character and has better representation than the Joker, sounds very bizzare now does it
It’s simple… in order to make a good story you have to have depth.
Crazy times. We even live in a time where others are copying this exact comment. That or I'm seeing double.
The utter state of DC.
A bot stole your comment, I think
Always has been that way. Joker is all plot armor and “woah gois I’m craaaazy!” With a a cheap way of never having a back story “muh multiple choice” because the writers suck. Penguin is a short out of shape ugly guy and has to compensate through being ruthless cunning gangster. Jack Nicholson and Heath ledger were cool af because they weren’t the lame jobber he is in the comics
what this movie needed was the Joker vs Gotham, the people are not on his side, the criminals are. Gordan is a young cop, maybe he just pops in, but this sets up the scene to a really broken gotham in the future, one thats needs.. BATMAN.
No, Todd Phillips wants you to feel shame about feeling bad for making the first movie a success.
@@TheKillaShowGODAMMIT!!!!!!!!!
I think the director doesn't even like Batman or its characters; he just used the Joker to make a movie he wanted to make, but it might not have been as popular if it wasn’t about Batman's most iconic villain.
Man...
This makes me beyond pissed. This project had so much potential and they've ruined it all
I feel like this film was built to enrage the audience, because it’s not for them: it’s for the studio. And it’s a giant middle finger. Guess Todd Philips had the last laugh.
it sucks too because the idea of tackling the concept of "hey incells took the wrong message from the first movie" would've been interesting to explore... instead we got a musical
That part where Joker says 'I suspect were not giving the audience what they want', is like giveaway to what they know their doing...
no you guys all just wanted like a chaotic joker whilst this joker is literally just a mentally disturbed person and how after his spree he would be charged and the fact that is a musical just shows more of his delusion like johnny charisma in arkham knight like i’ll say it’s too long and i wish there was more lady gaga harley stuff but i thought it was pretty good ur just watching his internal spiral the first movie is in his perspective but mostly third person
@@avishkaabeywardena9653i see a lot of people telling me what i wanted. Usually wrong. But damn if they dont tell me anyway.
If he torpedoed his career like Joel Schumacher did after Batman and Robin, I'm not that sure he got that last laugh... Or, he won't be laughing for some time now, seeing our rejection of his rejection of the audience/his first film.
I can't tell you how disappointed I was in this film. It is such a shame.
Good thing it’s not canon 😉
@@ParkerCS2canon to what? It’s not connected to any broader universe. Joker 1 & 2 are standalone universes
@@clarence9379 I’m saying Joker 2 isn’t canon to Joker 1 and only Joker 1 is that universe. Because Joker 2 sucks. I wasn’t saying it was connected to a larger universe.
@@ParkerCS2exactly it’ll never be canon to the first movie 😉
@@elhombredelsaco3995 💯
Joker 2: Fully Doo Doo
There's nothing they can do to convince me that this was anything *but* trying to ruin the legacy of the first movie.
Something tells me they care more about $$$ than your feelings.
@TheDarkLasombra considering the director's interview about the whole thing, it's both.
Joker 2: Folly a douche.
@@TheDarkLasombra About losing $$$? Because that's what's going to happen.
@@TheDarkLasombrayou’re dumb. It doesn’t matter if this one makes money it was made to spite the chuds that looked up to the gayker in the first shitty movie. Now anyone with a tatt or anything joker related will be repping a mentally ill loser who gets beaten, dumped, humiliated, graped, and then killed
Willem Dafoe should’ve been an imposter joker and film about Arthur and him trying to one up each other the entire movie to see who’s the REAL Joker to the rest of Gotham.
Willem Dafoe would be perfect in that role.
@@TheZodiacRipper yes. And his dynamic with Phoenix would’ve been amazing. And throughout the movie we would question if Arthur is gonna actually be the real joker or if Willem will possibly kill him and take the mantle once Batman eventually exists. You could subvert it in any way. What if Arthur kills Dafoe’s copycat? What if they both die, and the film ends with a third person becoming a Joker? What if Dafoe’s Joker is Jack Napier and at the end of the film when Arthur defeats him by throwing him into a Acid tank and supposedly kills him the film ends with Dafoe’s hand reaching out all deformed and a pale white color, cutting to black and him cackling?
Hey, I like your idea.
What about the three jokers. A little nod to the comics. The comedian, the criminal, and the clown. Just my input.
That's my idea for the sequel as well, but instead we got this shit.
@@Annilus-jg9wp exactly.
The scene with the wannabe "Joker" laughing at Arthur as he dies and carves his face doesn't work because it just feels like a 12 year olds fanfiction of something the Joker would do. Joker laughing as he gets beat up and thrown in a prison cell, THAT is Joker. That is 100x closer to what the Joker is supposed to be than anything else in this whole movie. Phoenix's Joker is the only authentic one, even if they want to take this angle of "not the real Joker" with it.
The ending was ass. But It's enjoyable. At least bro got what he wanted, I guess what he deserved
No pun intended. It just makes sense cause when he heard he gonna get the DP! he danced around
It feels like the dog at the end of a Homer Simpson Original revealing himself to be the twist villain shifting his eyes at the camera
"I hope there's no sequel" was literally spoken from my mouth minutes after walking out of Joker in 2019.
"ALL TOGETHER NOW!" *"This second movie isn't cannon."*
Of course it's not cannon!
It's not even a little handgun.
It certainly isn't cannon. Not even a catapult.
... Who cares?
Maybe just have better taste in movies?
Nope sorry CHUD it’s canon that the joker is an impotent bum that gets graped :)
It’s canon too bad chuddies
They lost me at Gaga and Musical. I knew it wasn't for me, I don't mind spoilers because I will never watch this crap.
You’re a glizzy gobbler those two things should make it a must watch!
@@ajscrewuyou must be five years old with insults as bad as that LMFAO
They turned joker into a simp, had him dumped like a beta male and then eliminated in the end like it's an actual joke
@@ajscrewuthat sounds like projection from you. Have a day
@@ajscrewu That's funny. As soon as I heard it was going to be a musical I immediately wrote it off. If there was any chance of convincing me. Hearing Lady Gaga was in it put the final nail in the coffin.
Based on what I hear so far. Not missing out on much anyway.
“Some things are just sitting there, waiting to be discovered. Other things are probably better off left alone.” - John Boyne
"I prefer Leto" ~ Pete Holmes, firing this lame ass Joker.
if only John had taken his own advice and left his book about the holocaust with one of the main plot points being “no german knew about these atrocities!!” in his drafts.
I personally liked the fan theory from when the movie first came out that Arthur wasn’t the *true* joker.
But would instead inspire someone a lot more crazy with criminal aspirations to become the eventual enemy of Batman.
But it should have been ambiguous, maybe have that guy show up and tell Arthur a joke, but instead of killing him it ends on them both laughing hysterically or something idk.
Just stop , Arther fleck is the joker , stop this nonsense bs
Maybe, that's what happened in Gotham but that was because of rights. That's not a terrible headcanon
Ah, like The Killing Joke eh
@@Cousinbiddy1 hes not
@@lambsauce9892 2nd film isn’t canon
So they destroy his character that was built up in the first movie, say he’s not the “real Joker”, get graped by the guards essentially emasculated horrifically, and butchered to death. Man, Hollywood really wanted that first movie to be destroyed because they hated how they showed how a man can also suffer in this world horribly without anyone to help him & how the system is rigged against us. F**k this movie and all it stands for I’m so mad I have a tattoo of the first movie on my forearm with Arthur smoking then him dancing down the stairs. Oh well, at least it’s a reminder of how beautiful the first one was.
>You got a tattoo of a piece of modern media
>You get what you fuckin' deserve
Hi. Drop the victim mentality and your life will improve dramatically.
@@Machiave11ilol
at least heath ledger comes back at the end to remind us that the type of person most likely to become a real joker is a GWOT veteran who no longer gives an F
@@Machiave11i Hi. Stop being a delusional cocksucker for capitalism ignorant bootlicker.
Virtually everyone knew that the first film was a lightning in a bottle, and it was built so as not to have a sequel. And it is apparent that Todd Phillips knew it all as well, hence why he made it a musical probably. But they didn't have to ruin the first movie by confirming people's worst suspicions and destroying Arthur as a character. It is just one of those things where everyone involved should have responded with a resounding "No" to WB. I feel particularly bad for Joaquin Phoenix, who specifically wanted a character-driven film back in 2019, and now his character is revealed to be flat as a pancake, and he himself gets nothing to work with. Such a waste of his immense talent.
It was built as a REMAKE and had some DC tossed in it to prop it up. It was ass as a Joker movie but would have been a great film about a guy going insane without it. That movie made for a shit Joker.
@@mariasol1545What was the wrong message they took? The only message people took from the movie was “hey yeah my life sucks too and it feels like society ignores my pain”, which is true for most men and people in general. It’s a rotten age
after interviewing Todd Phillips I come to learn that it was the plan from the very beginning to create a "human " Joker, then later have the "REal" more non-human Joker emerge out of the woodwork and take over....a pretty clever origin story. Too bad lotta people did not like it though....hahaha🤣
Todd Phillips should’ve said no to WB.
i absolutely loved this flick and acknowledge, that it has a lot of flaws, but the hollywood cash grab narrative really makes me question, if we saw the same movie
@@fabianhammer2864 hey so can you please give zero spoilers but explain why people may think the movie is so bad
@@man.itz.ashton the end of the first movie led many viewers to believe, that this would lead to a more traditional joker, but its really more about arthur and the effect, that the first movie had, on general audiences. i could go deeper than that, if i went into spoiler theory, but ill respect your stance and just say this...if you empathized with arthur fleck in the first one and dont go in, with the expectation of getting more joker, or even a comic book movie, you might enjoy it. the biggest argument against someone watching it, is that the story takes an active stance against glorifying jokers actions, in the first movie
@@fabianhammer2864 I did enjoy arthurs story about a man with problems who's been thrown aside by society I really like the first one and don't even see it as that's the green hair guy from Batman so I think I'll prob like the new one imma go see it tonight
Not when they’re paying you shit ton of money
Talk about destroying a movie just like that, the fact that the original movie is so well regarded and Joaquin Phoenix was such a great Joker, it astounds me at how badly this movie failed especially with the ending
I thought the first one was grossly overrated.
@@vidmikes I mean Joaquin Phoenix won an oscar for his performance, which is the entire movie, It is overrated considering King of Comedy and Taxi Driver were better movies, but this movie was something unique in the superhero genre and Joaquin performed his most popular role by far
@@vidmikes Then you are wrong.
At least Ryan Reynolds didn't shove himself in the film. That's one positive.
@@Arcessitorno, dude. Can't tell someone that because they enjoyed a film they're wrong because it doesn't agree with your opinion. I didn't think it was amazing or anything, but grow tf up and understand that not everyone thinks the exact same thoughts as you do. FFS man.
2:46 who the hell says her name like that?
😂
It caught me off guard so badly 😂😂😂😂
clayface
Todd Phillips had NEVER intended to do a Batman movie.. and was pissed we loved the first..so this is him trying reverse that..😂 hes the Joker, tragic fool
I wanna be a tragic fool and make a billion off of people I dislike too
What I'm hearing is that the 2nd movie is reminding us that The Joker was not originally meant to be a Batman universe movie
In my eyes it never was. I hated it as a Joker movie and would have loved every second of it if they had removed anything DC in it because that sure as fuck is not the Joker.
@@thomasjones4570this is true. At best, the Arthur Fleck story is a loose grounded version of something like the possible Joker backstory in The Killing Joke. Or, a variation of a number of sob stories Joker tells to manipulate people (Mad Love; The Dark Knight; some other examples in various comics too). But, we do not know which, if any, are true. The first Joker film at least ended with this possibility still, depending on how you interpret the final scene.
But, doing a sequel was always going to create a serious problem as they'd either have to commit to having Arthur be the Joker. Or, somehow reveal that he isn't. They chose the latter, and the manner of doing is clearly the most divisive way possible.
@@MidnightIsolde Nope. This "Joker" does not come close to matching any existing Joker origin story.
Pete Holmes said it best. "Nothing, is better than this" and he showed how every single plot point is lame...with...jokes.
Couldn't you tell? In the original the Joker stuff felt shoehorned in after they wrote it.
@@thomasjones4570 hence why I said "at best" ;)
It had to be destoryed because the first film was liked by the 'wrong people' so they had to destroy it. So they make a film that was specifically the antithesis of the first film's 'fans'.
Correct. There is nothing that the establishment fears more than an uprising of unhappy, lonely men
@@starfox300nah you guys go first I want to eat Doritos and drink Mountain Dew…play sega
@@thanksmaybe4103 I'm not unhappy ans lonely though
@@starfox300 it’s okay
That's probably why they put Lady Gaga in it.
Joker 1 was a fantastic film.
Joker 2 should have been more about the world of Gotham and how a figure like the Joker defined it.
This version is just a failure and the movie maker seems to hate the fans of the first one.
"What happened? Did your balls drop off?" ~ Heath Ledger Joker, The Dark Knight.
The scene Joker calls Gaga out for “making it all about herself” and the scene where he told her “stop singing and just talk to him” are just two times Joker broke the fourth wall to warn us that the Joke is on us. There are many more instances mocking the fans of the first movie like Arthur not recognizing his own joke about the dead drunk driver when Gaga said it (as her origin story) is reminiscent of the fact that the director here clearly did not recognize what made the original (Joker’s origin story) good.
'Napoleon' soured me on Phoenix, even soured me retroactively on his previous work. What once looked like great acting now looks like self-indulgent over-acting.
I've had similar thoughts tbh. Made me think he is not capable of playing anything that is not pensive, introspective, depressed navel gazing as that is how he played Napoleon too and it was quite wrong for that historical figure. And, in this context, it made me think that Phoenix would not be suitable to playing a real Joker, despite possessing the physicality as he is too wedded to the oh so sad story of Arthur Fleck.
I don't even think a sequel would've been that bad if they had decided to stick with him ACTUALLY being the Joker. He's not the most intelligent Joker, but the mere fact that he was able to convince people he's some kind of symbol in the first film would've been an awesome continuation for a sequel, especially if Harley and him teamed up with goons from Arkham and broke out. Instead, apparently Phillips and Silver are trying to "trick" who they believe to be "incels" that saw the first movie into seeing this second movie. Maybe even trying to guilt the fans of that first movie into believing that they are some sort of "problem" for enjoying a character piece about a clearly mentally deranged man. I hope it bombs so hard.
It will atleast break even "thanks" to gaga and leftover hype
Pretty much what I gathered from this review. “Pretty lights”
In the end, no one cared about Arthur Fleck.
They only cared about the joker. Both in the film and those watching the film
'Can you make a sequel?'
'I had an idea that it could be a mockumentary...'
'Yeah, we want you to mock all the men. Make it a musical. Here's $200m.'
And that's how it went down.
The Matrix didn't have "gas left in the tank". The story was complete and the main characters had all reached the logical conclusions of their journey, that's why the sequels felt so directionless. The cinematography, soundtracks and action scenes were fantastic, but the war with the machines and Zion were just background details in the story of the Matrix, not the focus of it. The Animatrix was far more creative than the sequels because it gave us new stories and characters within that universe.
EXCELLENT WORK. THE MOVIE CYNIC JOKER 🃏 TWO REVIEW 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡😈😈😈☠️😈😈😈😈🤡🤡🤡🤣🤣🤣🤣 LAUGHABLE.
Fuck dude, well said🤘🏻
Oh please.
Literally everyone wanted to see more from the story after that final scene in Matrix where where Neo took flight.
yeah idk wtf you're talking about, the matter of humanity's freedom was still a massive question mark at the end of the first movie as I recall. to say there wasn't "gas left in the tank" is ridiculous lol
@@ZellthanAgreed lol. The first 3 movies are just fine. Obviously the first is the best, but the trilogy as a whole told a great story and character development that reached a satisfying conclusion imo. Where they lost me was with Matrix Resurrections… now that was an absolute dog shit move land I wish they had just left it alone lmao. But yeah this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about if he said nobody wanted more after the first Matrix 😂 like WHAT
Let’s pretend Folie a Deux doesn’t exist.
When I heard Gaga was going to be in it i thought "nope, I'm out"
honestly imo: she kinda carried the movie and really brought in a weirdly confused super fan of the joker. I think the movie itself is bad, but she acts her role out amazingly and id say considering the story, this wasnt that easy
Idk why there's a hate against Gaga, she wasn't the problem of the movie. The problem was the script that pretty much adds nothing of value.
Exactly, the last thing I want to see in my movies is billionaire pop stars.
average female hater
@@Vampire00971they hate her because of her antics and politics. She is very talented and has a beautiful singing voice when you hear her non pop hits.
We truly live in a society..
Joker didn't need a sequel, it didn't need Lady Gagagoogoo and it sure as hell didn't need a musical...
Cry 😂
Todd Phillips, David Ayer and everyone writing Joker for the last decade: The Joker is an idea!
Joker in the comics: I'M the JOKER, baby!
They had Joker & Harley Quinn to work with. They chose to work with Arthur Peck & Lee. Yeah...
worst looking harley
So glad I didn't waste my time watching Joker Folie A Hollywood.
Joker is an excellent, standalone film.
And I’m gonna keep it that way by not watching the crap non canon sequel
This movie has to be Todd Philips trolling the studio cause they forced him to make a sequel when he didn't have a plan to make one.
That IS EXACTLY what I think.
The tiitle means: delusion or mental illness shared by two people in close association - "a classic case of ".
Alternatively, in English, means: lack of good sense; foolishness - "an act of sheer folly".
He is trolling Hollywood and the Studio, for sure.
I prefer to hope this is the cause, rather than just being a terrible mistake.
I wish but it was apparently Joaquin’s idea
Wasn't Harley a therapist when she met the Joker? She looks like a fellow patient in this movie.
Yeah cause that's what they decided to do. They only subtly hint that she went to school for psychiatric help, but she doesn't do anything with it. She doesn't do anything. She just commits herself to meet him and then she follows him around for a while until she hates him.
@@personman5156 I think the idea was that she was using her psychology to get closer to joker, knowing exactly what he'd like and becoming that.
The most baffling part of Joker 2 is that it features boring courtroom drama. Even shows like Ally McBeal, Boston Legal, and (God forgive me) The Practice had plenty of zany courtroom plots on a shoestring budget.
2019 was the end of all beautiful things in the world 🙂🌚
That’s for damn sure
That Forest Gump meme was gold.
The MCU may be going through some problems, but the DCEU universe is just terrible at making sequels like Wonder Woman 1984 miss, Shazam 2 miss, Aquaman 2 miss, and now this.
Joker: You took everything from me.
Penguin: I don't even know who you are.
As someone who worked on production of five musicals in high school, I'll say:
HARD PASS. The original left us with a message. It was the origin of The Joker. TBC in Batman. Musicals are pretentious, and not for the most of us that just wanna see a MOVIE about a villain origin. And we got that the first time. Make it into a stage play if they want Gaga dance numbers.
To be honest I knew a second film for Joker would be bad but I thought there was hope. Such a shame, I really wanted them to exceed expectations. Also love the CM Punk shirt.
Would the movie work if we turned off the volume and just played Dark Side of the Moon over it?
You can’t turn the volume off
Dark Side of the Moon is supposed to sync up to the films audio
@KRobinson-ko1ne true, in theaters. But when it's streaming or video? Definitely
If this movie was good people would stop saying we didn't need another one. Because we wanted one just not a freakin musical, that has no world building, or character building. This movie script was not for the fans of the first movie.
Like I said before Joker nothing without Batman! Robin nothing without Batman. Penguin nothing with Batman. The only reason people watching Penguin now is because it has similarities to Sopranos!
Nobody's tired of franchise superhero films..just poorly done ones..
I flat out am never going to watch this movie
As far as I'm concerned the second film doesn't exist.
Same, haven't the slightest desire to watch, what i didn't want from the sequel was a musical with Goo Gaga.
Good, but you lose the right to have an opinion or to say something about the movie because you didn't watch it. And no, taking the personal opinion of a youtuber as yours doesn't count
@@javiers.99you can’t take a persons ability to have an opinion away, you nutjob.
I wish I didn't!
Todd Philips really looked at what Zack Synder was saying about Batman and said “that sounds sick let me do it”.
Poor Phoenix, got thin for nothing this time
Thumbnail: It didn’t have to be this way!
Todd Phillips: I had no choice! Times have changed, good movies aren’t enough
anymore.
But writing bad musicals?!
I’ll write a thousand shitty musicals before I let this franchise die! And I’ll silence any fan that gets in my way!
Nice Monsters Inc. reference
I thought joker 2 being a musical was an april fools joke,i stil do actually.
Logan didn’t get a sequel for obvious reasons. Joker also didn’t need a sequel.
DP&W kinda is a sequel to Logan... spin off? Same shit anyway
@@JoakimOtamaa it’s not an official sequel. It’s a comedy so don’t take it seriously. It’s not really canon despite connections and characters like X23 in it. It’s just a plot device.
@@ParkerCS2 I was just messing with you. The New Mutants show some scenes from Logan so that was kinda sequel spin off too. That movie was horrendously ass.
@@JoakimOtamaa yeah I hear it was bad.
@@ParkerCS2 Luckily I was hungover when I wasted my time on it so it didn't feel too bad not to concentrate on it.
Yet another character the audience wasn't supposed to sympathise with but did anyway to the chagrin of the writer.
Progressive commenters love to pretend that media creates armies of brainwashed enemies. This is mostly fantasy. Like Fight Club or Starship Troopers. I've personallly seen dozens of progressive people in my life moan about the armies of misogynists they imagine these movies created. Never met those supposed armies though. I have met tons of men who identified way too much with the main character, in terms of mental illness and falling into dangerous habits, and it's so convenient these men get lost in the narrative.
I also tried to start a positive website for men to deal with their mental health. Even though I only had a dozen subscribers, I was quickly knee deep in what I can only describe as resembling federal agents trying to pose as hot women to gain your confidence. Everyone on that website was quickly doxxed and driven from their daily life. I can't say who was behind it. But I can tell you any website that tries to be a positive space for men gets these doxxers crawling all over it. Meanwhile figures like Andrew Tate got frontpage on the New York Times and Wall to Wall CNN coverage. I'm not saying they're related... But it is weird who gets all the media attention, versus who gets quietly knifed in silence.
I think it's more nuanced than that
Its much deeper than that. People don't just universally attatch to characters like that, he represented a certain type of lower class frustration that had gone ignored for a very long time on the big screen. Its amazing it even exists at all.
Except they spend the entire first movie making him sympathetic so this point makes no sense
Someone said this should of been a movie of Joker just thinking all this movie in his head. Him not being the real Joker in the end is stupid. Money will always talk and it’s the only reason this was made.
yep it failed for gotham too. the drop off point with jerome's death to jeremiah is very noticeable.
Joker 2 felt like it was made out of spite, like, “you weren’t supposed to like it, so we’ve got to make a sequel that flips the metaphorical table now!”
it feels like the worst movie of the year, it was soooo boring and absolutely dreadful
They should have make a movie about how Joker form his gang and start become the notorious crime boss, End up with him facing the Batman then it's begin the obsession with him and the bat.
This would just not fit arthur. He has nothing to do with batmans joker and i dont think someone could push arthur to become the real joker. I like arthur like he is.
@@andersistbesseryeah but the story of 2 seems to shit on him
@@andersistbesser kid batman was actually in the first movie. They could have made it happen with him becoming a crime boss but they just sucked
What I see in this joker is that he isn't a crime boss. He's just a person that inspires people around him accidentally. I loved the scene where he returns and the whole prison is cheering him on, getting into a riot. I think this movie could of been good if it continued from that, where he tears down the injustice of the guard's just because they see the injustice within, maybe bring attention to it during trial. That's what I think would of been a more interesting direction. He himself doesn't really try to bring down the prison. Just the same way he doesn't try to create the riots in Gotham in the first movie, he just killed 3 people that were harassing him.
Batman was 10 years old in the first movie, this universe doesn’t need Batman. They could have took inspiration from Bonnie and Clyde and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
"They break into song to describe their feelings."
So, this is 'Cop Rock: Folie a Deux?'
“Please stop singing” hahaha I laughed so hard when he said that line.
Joker 8/10
Joker 7/10
The original is better but not a 9/10 because it's not an original film but a great idea 💡
Take "King of Comedy" & "Taxi Driver" and have the Joker as the main character.
Great premise but the film is derivative. Just what would the Joker do in those situations.
Man you're wearing CM punk Tee, you're officially my favourite reviewer now.
Here is my pitch for Joker 2: If you really have to.
Arthur realises how much joy destruction brings to the people on the street, the people he feared due to him being different.
He tries out what he can get away with. Some assaults, theft, with an ever growing crew around him. His own audience.
His own family.
He learns how to weave around people, get them to be his punchlines in ever more twisting humour.
Have it finish on him faking to blow up the governors office while banging lady gaga publicly, who isn't harley quinn but a Broadway dancer/singer, who got fascinated with the stories of the jokers miss deeds.
Gagas dancer actress gets shot.
Then he gets thrown into Arkham. Where he meets... Her very alike looking counterpart that is a serious therapist, also acted by gaga.
Done.
Next one can be where he twists harley quinn into the person he wants her to be, more like his first one that loved his mayhem.
But she makes him more brutal over time yada yada.
Maybe i should work in hollywood. I like it better already.
Yes very good pitch 👍👍
I thought it could be interesting if joker 2 starts out with him in Arkham, but he gets out cuz the guards/ Harley Gaga view him as a rebellious hero. Harley Gaga introduces him to his fans, and Joker realizes he can manipulate people these people that view him as this hero, and he becomes a Charles Manson like figure, basically controlling a Joker cult.
@@jbarb9987 wayyyy better idea
No it's a horrible idea to draw out this garbage for another story?
It sounds slightly better.
Unnecessary sequel & unnecessary musical ! Joker should be stand alone story ! never liked Phoenix Joker either way, all the way Heath Ledger !
Crazy that the ending to this movie seems to allude that Heath Ledger's Joker killed this joker. 😂
Joker 3: manage é tois
a musical comedy with Nicky as Harley in which the joker in 2 is killed by a 3rd joker who does Arthur's dance but better because it's ethnic.
Ethic?
@@kingmuizz708 ethnic. Instead of stair-dancing by himself, Joker3 just starts krumpin while Nicki "raps" the Joker theme song
@@toonnoon19 ngl I wouldn't mind a thicc Harley but why Nicki? 😭
Arthur does not have a character arc. He has a character loop
I cannot comprehend the massive popularity of the first Joker movie. I was expecting a story of a guy beaten down by the society who went over the edge into some mystical union of opposites, the iconic chaotic evil. Instead I got a pathetic story of a brain-damaged reject, not even an anti-hero, that became the symbol of a civic unrest by pure accident. Hearing that they made the sequel a musical seems like a bet to make it as bad as possible to see if the public is going to glamorize that too.
Phillips acknowledges that characters like Joker have consequence, because you do have the followers who aren’t just cosplaying for fun, like Lee, but will seriously misunderstood and “take the joke too far” so to speak. Playing a “Joker” creates a Joker. You become part of a cycle of violence and unrest. And it’s not cool. You don’t go out a legend, or a hero. You’re forgotten on a cold floor. So. Don’t admire people like this. Don’t act like this. That’s why Phillips doesn’t even really show the new Joker. He doesn’t want to give the kid “a moment” or treat him as special or important. He’s not the heir but the conclusion. A period rather than an exclamation point. "As a man, I'm flesh and blood, I can be ignored, I can be destroyed; but as a symbol...as a symbol I can be incorruptible, I can be everlasting." - Bruce Wayne/Batman.
This is unbelievable levels of cope lmao
I wanted a sequel. Many others voiced this as well. What we DIDN’T want was THIS!!!
That's life (that's life) That's what all the people say. You're riding high in April, shot down in May
the deadpool and wolverine pfop makes this better because it's the type of movies todd hates beating him box office,critic and audience wise. joker 2 "you took everything from me" deadpool and wolverine "i don't even know who you are"
2 hours ago
Harley Quinn was inspired by Clarice from Silence of the lambs.
They had a perfect setup to make her the reason for the sequel.
She should have been the TV psycologist from the Batman animated series.
Harley should have been the protagonist and have Arthur as a supporting role.
IT WAS LOW HANGING FRUIT RIPE FOR THE PICKING!
G-damn-it!!!!!!!!
"It's a visual medium too"
What !??? Of course it is, it's a movie. Visual, cinematography, shots, it's of #1 importance.
For a book, the #1 is the writing, for a song the #1 is the music, for a meal the #1 is the taste.
Perfect now we know
i knew it , since the original took alot from Taxi driver and King Of Comedy . the second one struggles to stands on it feet since there is nothing to ripoff
They should’ve just went full Joker and Harley and won, that’s it, nobody wants to see realistic shit in a fucking DC hero/villain movie. It reminds me of Velma, you just wanted to make a different movie, but used Joker as a mask for people buy tickets. But this wasn’t Joker, and that wasn’t Scooby Doo
Bingo. I feel like any franchise that has an established fan base pulls this same gotcha on people. Marvel is notorious for it.
@TheSmokeWatcher Marvel doesn't openly hate their fans tho. They'll give us an Eternals and then give us Deadpool & Wolverine as an apology. WB and DC never apologize, they just keep doing bullshit
@@xavierwashington5408 and What did we get as an apology for the black Panther sequel?
15:41 *"What the point? To make money".* You SURE about that? (looks at the box office).
The first film made Arthur Fleck into a spectacle for the marginalized. Taking on the persona of the Joker, he was made into a martyr for the people. Yet despite becoming an icon to the world, Joker 2 delves into how the audience never really saw Arthur for who he truly was: sick and helpless. The people make Arthur into a performer for them, the jury makes a fool out of him, and Harley abuses him.
While this film isn't a good representation of the comic book villain Joker, Todd Phillips does a great job at expressing society's desire to make martyrs out of mentally ill people. Feeding on the sick and helpless in order to fulfill self serving pleasures. Ultimately, the joke is on the audience. And the theatergoers, wanting to see Arthur to reach a status of glory, are left disappointed when he becomes a victim of their own fantasies
I don't think people actually got what this film was about. I thought it was so deep and interesting. Yes, maybe the musical aspect was a bit much, but it was just great. It did not deconstruct him. The movie put arthur fleck in front of joker and showed he was too weak to hold the joker. So the joker passed to the next guy, like the red hood.
Upon reading an article, i think variety, in which Philps boasts about gaming the system and studios to ride the super hero genre, then completely backstab everyone so he could make his version of taxi driver. Lets face it, thats all joker was, a remake of taxi driver. They should have actually made harley a part of the 1st film. Something where she plays him and humiliates him on live tv which then results in him shooting de niro and harley. She survives but gets brain damage / amnesia and then totally becomes obsessed with joker
I blame all YOU fanboys’n’girls & commenters/critics of the first JOKER movie who drowned the film in melodramatic praise/criticisms regarding its important or provocative “portrayal of modern society and its treatment of those lost in the cracks of our mental health system who fail them”.. BLAH BLAH BLAH. It was all of YOU who ruined the standalone beauty of the first ‘JOKER’ movie- I repeat: MOVIE! You artificially attached some grand higher level of importance to the film and its supposed message, and THAT is why it became the target of those who wish to wield art as a club to beat the public over the head with. Anything original and beautiful- subvert it, destroy it; then capture it, “reimagine” it. Parade the new and improved withered soulless husk around for all to see. Yes, YOU all asked for this.
🤣Leto’s Joker was a better representation than Joker 2
It was that bad?
@@leafyv4 the real joker killing fleck at the end was just dumb asf
The pace was slow, the movie was long, nothing happened, there were way too many songs, the courtroom scenes were either exposition or a flashback to the first movie, Arthur reverted to who he was at the start of the first movie, Harley was barely in the movie and only existed to be an obsessed fan of the Joker persona.
It was all around terrible.
And an act of revenge from the director angry that the audience "did not like what they where supposed to like" and " did not get MY message"
I’ve seen the matrix a half dozen times, and have never seen the sequels. Last time I forgot they existed for 10 years.
I absolutely love the first Joker movie.
Joker 2 undid everything from Joker 1. Sounds bizarre but I feel like Joker 2 even somehow just made Joker 1 worse.
One of the best movies ever made... Follow the actual time line ... Watch his story ... This creates the joker that causes mayhem
My dad called it when he said “its just gonna be singing and arthur being pathetic”