If you like the fighter pushed too far I'd really recommend reading/playing through the Heavens Feel route of the Fate Stay Night Visual novel. It's a really great example of that trope imo.
I think when people complain about stupid characters theyre more so complaining about out of character stupidity that exists only to make the plot go in a certain way. Look at Game of Thrones, Ned and Sansa both make some very stupid decisions in the first season and nobody complains about that because it fits in with what we know about their characters, but in later seasons when Littlefinger and Tyron, characters who are supposed to be smart, start making bad decisions to move the plot in the way D&D want almost everybody hated it.
Absolutely! But I have also seen the same said for what I (personally) consider very well written unintelligent characters. Specifically a couple of King characters that I have had people complain about being dumb when... YES, they are meant to be.
For sure. I hate characters doing dumb things for the sake of plot, but Fitz fits this to a tee and I LOVE him, because even though his actions are amazingly brash, you understand his state of mind completely.
I mean stupid decisions are one thing. can happen to everyone. but when, like you said, to make the plot and everybody just goes with it instead of explaining it to that person, it´s very annoying. some stupidity is okay, but when it gets to that level that your asking, how is this person even alive with that much stupidity it gets frustating. i had that with shiro from deadman wonderland
I'm not sure what to call it, but I love it when an unrepentant villain has been defeated or retires and tires to live a quiet life only to start caring about their little community and begrudgingly becomes a hero to defend them against a lesser evil than they were. It also ties into my love for the Bully Meets A True Nightmare trope.
I love the "badass retires and becomes a farmer" trope so much, especially when their "farm" (it can be anything really) becomes threatened and they have to fight to defend it but fear becoming the person they used to be again.
I would love to see a tier list video where you pick a trope, and then rank character examples within that trope based on how well or how poorly they were done in popular media.
This is going to sound stupid, but I’ve NEVER heard the “Anti-Villain” name put to that trope. It’s always been called the anti-hero and that has made me uneasy, but when the real name, anti-villain, is put to it it makes me realize how much I love it.
@@pueblonative Yeah, it definitely makes sense. Specifically i was thinking of Killmonger in the MCU as Daniel was talking. He was doing awful shit but I agreed with his reasons and supported the thought process. But because his answer for fixing those injustices was literal genocide I’ve never been comfortable with people calling him an Anti-Hero, and he didn’t fall into any sort of a redeemed villain either. Anti-Villain was like an “AHA!” Moment for me. I’d even say, to a point Kylo Ren was an anti-villain, especially if you take away the flawed redemption from Episode 9.
@@edgytypebeat781 ehhhh I don’t know if I’d say that. He’s just a bad guy. It’s less his environment, especially later on when you realize that he loves what he’s doing. I think when he first tried to pull Mark to his side he sold him a anti-villain type narrative. But then it became obvious, especially in the comic (granted I’ve only read about a 1/3rd of it), that he had no qualms about it. That said, I could be swayed to seeing him as an anti-villain.
@@ANIMEniacReview I’ve gotten to when its back on his planet and he has another son. I think the last issue I got to read (I have the first 4 of the ultimate collections and am looking to buy the compendiums to finish) was when Mark brought the kid back to earth. I can definitely see them making Omni-man more anti-villain based on where they’d left him. But from what I know now I’m not willing to call him that. If you’re saying they do go more that route with him though, I’m looking forward to seeing that play out because now that I know the word for it I know that Anti-Villain is one of my favorite tropes. (Always knew the trope was a favorite I just didn’t know what to call it).
A growing favourite for me is the knowing fool. I've not seen it that much but the characters that you slowly realise know more about the conflicts and setting that anyone around them but sell themselves as something less to achieve their goals like wit from stormlight or kruppe from malazan.
OH yes, love this trope soo much. Especially when the character starts out as a Whimsical loveable ball of chaos and slowly we start to realise they are either smarter than they let on or way more powerful than they let on. Also I've always called this trope "The Jester's Hat" aka they play the role of the fool because it benefits them in someway, Intentionally putting on the Jester's hat.
My favorite trope is a version of the sympathetic villain that breaks and becomes a full psychopath. That dichotomy of understanding and sympathizing with the villain while also being absolutely repulsed by their actions just stays in your head forever.
Shallan’s father in the stormlight archive was kind of like this. The situation he was put in was terrible and it broke him to the point of becoming a monster
@@Duckfest I am now going to look up the French pronunciation, _just_ because of this comment-I'm honestly shocked that I've never done so long before now. ^-^ (Thank You🤍)
It's not relatable, for me; personally, I just really liked seeing female characters who were neither damsels in distress nor were crazy caricatures of villains who couldn't even laugh properly-convincingly /evilly/sinisterly..because I felt like there weren't many of those, in the 90s, at least..who weren't children..somehow expected to grow out of that as the "matured" and "set aside childish fancies" or whatever. 😅🙃🤦♀️😶 Loll (But, granted, my exposure to fiction was also extremely limited back then because I wasn't allowed to watch or read anything not specifically approved of by my parents until I was high-school aged-so maybe that was just my own subjective exposure, idk.) But I can still definitely see that being the appeal of a femme fatale for other people, anyhow. ^^ 🤭🤣😊😁
Yo Daniel, you inspired me to begin my journey into writing fiction. Specifically your videos/productive criticisms directed to authors. Vids like those and this one helped me understand the "meta" of this medium. Salute.
I don't know if there is a particular name for this trope, but I am very fascinated by the (as I call it) "nobody trope". Where a character doesn't really have a backstory and is just thrust into the main story. I can easily see this being difficult to execute, but when done well I really love it. An example of this trope would be Rango, the surprisingly good animated western movie by nickelodeon.
Agreed! Like it pretty much could have been anyone, but they were in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time and got swept up in events. Rango reminds me a little of Twoflower from the Discworld series. Just so so entertaining.
This trope works best in videpgames: Fallout New Vegas, Planescape: Torment, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. But the best example - Elder Scrolls games, were you just shoved into the world as you press "New Game" button
Just want to say how much this channel has developed my passion for fantasy and reading. I had read others but Dresden, first law, and now wheel of time are all due to you mang. Thanks!
I have a love/hate relationship with the miscommunicator trope... When it is lazy or contrived for the drama, I hate it. When it is deliverate deceit, it depends on the execution. When it's a character that sees the hard truths, but doesn't know how to convince others that sacrifices must be made, so is compelled to act alone... often villainized or shunned in the process, and may or may not be vindicated in the end... I LIVE FOR THAT 💖💖
I think I'm the same way with Jerk Protagonists. When executed well, they're great because when they hit rock bottom, it shows how vulnerable and relatable they are, as well as how they don't have everything together. But when it's done poorly, I don't find it entertaining seeing them be jerks to ppl and getting away with it, and/or being unlikable and not feeling sympathetic enough for me to care about them. I can understand there are times where I'm not supposed to like them but there's gotta be a balance and a reasons for me to root for them.
I personally cannot stand the miscommunicator trope for drama or pushing the plot purposes, but yknow where it frickin slaps in my opinion? comedy. when a little bit of miscommunication leads to a big yet harmless chaos it's just plain funny to me.
13:34 I will say this character is also great when they lose that one thing drive them in, they breakdown and/or have to discover a new motive and truly found themselves.
Tywin Lannister is probably my favorite hyper-focused character. His obsession with legacy and continuing the family name, and not necessarily the individual family members, is just *chef's kiss*
It’s fun to go back through my own stuff and see which tropes my characters have landed in because I never (and I don’t think most writers) sat down to write characters to fit within a specific trope.
Another amazing Daniel Greene video just gotta say thank you, it's cause of your videos and your love of fantasy and writing that has gotten me to write 2 books now! (1 in editing and 1 im currently writing) I'm writing mostly for fun, I don't expect to be good enough to really have my books be positively rated but I hope that I can learn as I write more and more and eventually make something really good!
With redeemed heroes, I saw something once that said everyone wants what Zuko had, but very few people put in the work that AtLA did. I agree with your ranking for it. When it is done well, it’s amazing, but it frequently feels a little forced or too convenient.
As someone who is writing a story with a lot of these tropes (some more and less) I really enjoyed this and has helped me get motivated to keep writing it! Thanks Daniel!
I think Mirri Maz Duur from Game of Thrones was the last "villain because you were mean to me" that I liked. I think the key to pulling it off is having the hero completely shift their understanding/world view at the time of the betrayal, and making the villain seem like more than just a whiny brat. You are appalled by Mirri's actions, but you understand her hatred and unforgiveness 100%
I think that one works so well because the whole context is plain to see, so when the betrayal happens its not some out of left field thing but a logical path for her character to follow. Its not some nebulous past event that causes her to lash out, but the first time we meet the character and it kinda shows how the average person will view a conqueror, especially one using a brutal force like the Dothraki.
Watch out with that take samantha, some people literally argued that Dany was evil for burning this literal witch and Miri was justified because she killed a future 'stallion who will mount the world'. While I sympathize with what happened to Miri, I still see her as a villain too.
@@cjstanky Yeah, I wouldn't even call Mirri a villain. She's a villain only in that we thought Drogo was a badass and Dany loved him. Otherwise she's the goddamn hero of that situation, sacrificing herself to save more people from the fate that her town had just suffered. Which points up one of my favorite aspects of writing villains, in that they're the heroes of the story that centers them. They just happen to do things that are detrimental from the perspective of the true protagonist.
I’ve always been conflicted on Mirri Maz Duur. On the one hand, I completely understand and empathize with her anger towards the Dothraki, and I understand why she would make sure Drogo died. But on the other hand she had absolutely no right to kill Dany’s unborn child, and deliberately mislead her into thinking her child would be safe (also keep in mind that Dany is a kid herself - she’s 13/14 in the first book.) But it’s a central theme in this series that people’s emotions can lead them to do terrible and tragic things when they’re not properly dealt with.
I LOVE the wise old mentor trope, but I love it even more when the wise old mentor is powerful as shit in the world. This is very common in anime. Like the character doesn't even have to be good, just give him grey hair and make him absurdly powerful and you got me
With the profile picture, I'm guessing you're thinking of Rayleigh. And indeed, it truly is great. They get to be epic, show a power ceiling of where the protagonist may reach, and have the knowledge to get the protagonists to a higher level. It works nicely. They're also often lore-relevant/famous characters, which makes the protagonist cool by association.
A trope I love is when a character starts out as egotistic, overconfident and loved by most, but actually weak and useless, realizing that their ego got the better of them and starts working hard to become a hero and what they thought they were before, but slowly turning into a villain as they realize how horrible the world is and eventually becomes either a ruler, or some unknown living in the shadows. That was a long sentence, but I can't figure out how to shorten it. Btw, I'm up for book recs with this trope for the mc, because I've only seen it in fanfics.
what type of flaw could you give this type of character to still be interesting? being dumb doesn’t count if it’s inherent to their loving and loyal, apparently dog-like nature.
@@Mr_Spaghetti maybe being unable to take situations seriously? a lot of times that behavior develops as a coping mechanism, so that can be used as a point of fleshing out their backstory. also, not knowing when to stop talking-it kinda goes along with the first flaw i mentioned and can help create unintentional conflicts
I’ve been recently watching BB for the first time and one thing that impressed me is how, in a way, the same thing that makes Jesse so sympathetic is the same thing that makes him a villain. After his first kill he goes on a soul-crushing self-hate spiral (which had been simmering for a while) which explodes during his final AA meeting, there you can see how the contept he feels about himself is transefered to those he sees as the lowest kind of being with whom he identifies: aka the drug addicts, he sees them being as weak and as perverse as he sees himself. “He should know, he is a Junkie and he “knows” he is terrible”. So whatever he does to them (be it cooking, selling or enabling) they “had it coming”. By devouring his victims he attemps to canibalize himself and his ever-increasing mistakes. Since he doesn’t feel he can ever be forgiven there’s nothing he can do but punish himself, the ones with whom Jesse identifies get sucked into his auto-destructive journey. They are all “dog killers”. Sorry for the rant, I had to get it out😚 I love/hate Jesse!❤️
My favorite trope is one that I can’t think of a specific character that fits it perfectly. Basically a character that starts as sort of a mentor to the protagonist, the protagonist looks up to them, and as the plot moves forward the protagonist realizes that the mentor is not who they thought they were and the mentor becomes the main antagonist. What makes this trope so amazing to me is that the mentor becomes the antagonist not because they changed, but because the protagonist overcame their flawed view of the mentor through their own character development. It’s not like a typical villain reveal because the “villain” is there all along but becomes the antagonist as a result of character development of the protagonist and a shift in perspective. This can work especially well when the conflict between the protagonist and antagonist is a genuinely thought provoking moral dilemma, where the audience may actually agree with or sympathize with the antagonist’s perspective, and the protagonist continues to question if their perspective is truly right throughout the story. Some close examples: Walter White from breaking bad. If you view breaking bad from Jesse’s perspective, Walter sort of goes from a mentor role to a villain. But this doesn’t really count as Walter White is the protagonist of breaking bad despite being the villain. Dr. Brenner from stranger things. He technically goes from mentor to villain from the perspective of Eleven, but it really isn’t executed in such a way from the viewers perspective. It’s pretty obvious from the start that Brenner is a villain, and it’s virtually impossible to argue that he is in the right even if he has good intentions. Peacemaker from suicide squad. Peacemaker doesn’t start as a mentor, but he does start as a protagonist and ends as an antagonist due to a moral conflict with the other protagonists. I absolutely love how Peacemaker is written in Suicide Squad, it is such a genuine plot twist when he turns against the group due to his loyalty to his own moral values. Even though probably almost anyone watching Suicide Squad would root against Peacemaker, you can still easily understand his perspective, which is what makes him the perfect example of this trope besides the mentor part.
one of my favorite tropes in the "damsel" in distress who uses their captivity to infiltrate/spy on/sabotage the villain. like what orihime tried to do (and imo should've, from a narrative perspective, been more successful at) in the hueco mundo arc of bleach. this can dangerously fall into the condescending girlboss-y narrative you touched on if the author seems too proud of the subversion it provides, but when handled well can be such a great way to make your "damsel" have more agency/participation in the story and develop your villain's hubris as they underestimate the danger their own prisoner might be to them. bonus points if the captor and captive have a lot of interaction that provides character development as the captor tries to manipulate their captor into displaying fatal weaknesses.
My favorite is the "Hyperfocused Character" who loses their main goal unexpectedly and then has to overcome that loss of identity. The target of my revenge is already dead? The long lost treasure has rotted away? Was it all for naught?
I'd never heard of the term anti-villain even though I already loved the concept. Thank you for introducing it to me! I'd love to hear your opinion on Psycho-Pass, a futuristic anime that deals with very interesting themes similar to Minority Report, but it has an antagonist in season 1 that I totally can get behind in terms of reasoning, even though I don't agree with the methods. Season 2's antagonist was also really good. It's a great series, full of complexity and very interesting questions we should probably ask ourselves as a society.
Just noticing how foundational duos are in modern fantasy with the OG Lord of the Rings: if your not following Sam following Frodo into darkness, we switch perspectives to Marry and Pippin, who even when separated and trying to connect with their lords are constantly wondering about each other, or when we're with the three hunters we more and more get perspective of Gimli and Legolas as Aragorn becomes more legendary hero (with a deep connection with Arwen behind the scenes). Encountered along the way there's somewhat more toxic pairings of Faramir and Boromir, Sauruman and Wormtongue, Ugluk and Grisnag, Shagrat and Gorbag, Gollum (Slinker and Sticker), and some more positive: Bombidil and Goldberry. Three is company, nine is a fellowship, and one is a Dark Lord or an unknowable creator - but two is a marriage...or a bromance.
I've said it before and I'll say it a thousand times: Malazan has the BEST duos in all of fantasy. Quick Ben and Kalam, Tehol and Bugg, Karsa and Samar Dev, Trull and Onrack, Shadowthrone and Cotillion, Tool and Toc, Icarium and Mappo, and the list goes on.
Peacemaker is certainly an interesting take on an anti-hero trope. He has good motivations (peace at any cost) but he was a full-on surprise villain in his first outing with the Suicide Squad. His TV show added a lot of layers to him- he was clearly haunted by his actions of the movie, literally beating himself up over it. That caused him to want to do better and he took the job at fighting the Butterflies. In my opinion he's more a villain looking for redemption than an anti-hero, much like Anubis in "Ronin Warriors," who is the prime example of a redemption arc done right. (Started off a villain, saw the error of his ways, switched sides, and became a monk.)
I'd like to hear your take on the following trope: - 4th. wall thinking (the character knows its role in the story and acts to fulfill the role, or attempts to avoid the faith. Like a princess who is needs to be married, or a prophet who needs to do what is been foreseen etc.)
I'd say that it's the same for John Kramer aka Jigsaw from the Saw franchise. He thinks he does a good thing by making people apreciate their lives more, but does it in a dangerous and monstrous way by forcing them to beat deathtraps. But you can sympatize with him, even more so in Saw X. He may be a villain, butyou can't hate him
Including Jessie Pinkman was a fantastic example of the anti-villain. It would help so much if you could give examples good and bad for the other tropes.
Dear fantasy novelists: Please give us more girl-girl or woman-woman ride-or-die Duos! Frodo & Sam, Locke & Jean, Royce & Hadrian, Wax & Wayne, Fafrhd and the Grey Mouser, Master Li and Number Ten Ox, Gotrek & Felix, Egil & Nix... so many bromances. Let's give the ladies some of that action.
Daniel making Uncle Iroh the pic for mentor shows how much he loves atla even tho he doesn't talk about it. espcially since he brought up others like the GOAT Moraine
Yo the antivillian description you gave is just a perfect way to describe (some/most of) the characters in the show Succession (huge recommend to anyone who hasnt seen it) and it really is an amazing trope
I think one possible way for the "reluctant hero" trope to persist throughout the whole story and still work is if the hero has an inherent good nature and really wants to trust people, but the outside world and that reality forced them to fight their instincts to survive. The issues of their world are persisting, even towards the end and making the hero still hesitant, but at the same time, their instinct to want and do good persists too.
A good example if a bad decision maker who just causes conflict I think would be viserys from HOTD, but he works because he's so fucking sympathetic and you can totally see why he says what he says
Absolutely love your work man. Recently discovered you got me to start Brandon Sanderson. I started with War Breaker and in a short month I've listened to every single audiobook available including the Starsight series. I absolutely love all of it. Now I'm onto Joe Abercrombie and his work is equally amazing in different ways. I can't wait to listen to anything you recommend. Hats off to the incredible Michael Kramer and Steven Pacey, absolutely incredible jobs on the books.
5:35 that's why Loghain from Dragon Age made such a good secondary antagonist to the blight. He had good reason for betraying various characters and it came down to a disagreement on tactics and an unwillingness to accept outside help.
Regarding the Anti-Villain trope, there is a good argument to be made that Breaking Bad is as good as it is, and was as successful as it was, because its lead duo of characters is a duo of Anti-Villains. Both Walter and Jesse aren't heroes.
In terms of revolutionary, I'd recommend Flint from Black Sails as an amazing example (he also contains a combination of anti-villain and anti-hero traits that it's hard to really say that he definitively leans more one way more than the other overall); it also has a good use of the miscommunication trope in the sense that because he does so much bad shit or lies so often, and also majorly due to his critical motivations as a character, he can't often really communicate his intentions or when he does people just end up not believing him and it's just stupidly well done, especially when going back and rewatching the start once you have all the information needed to really understand him and why he's acting the way he is
I love this! My personal favorite trope (as basic as it is) are rivals and antiheroes. I understand why you put it there are the tierlist however since the trope is a lil overdone and not done as well. But there are a couple gems in things like games and anime who act as part of a ying yang with the protagonist. A good example of this would be someone like Vergil from Devil May Cry who reflects his brother as an opposite but not completely. A good rival who makes you question the protagonist’s either motives or ideals are such a breath of fresh air especially when they share great chemistry. Great video!
One of my favorites is a character tropes is the charismatic cult leader. I hate cults in real life but cult leaders in fantasy/sf are fascinating because they're not lying they can give you powers, they can actually be working for a lovecraftian god. This makes them even scarier but more interesting. My favorite recent example is Ethan Hawke from Moon Knight
I have to disagree with the miscommunication one. If the character is set up to have bad communication skills it'll make sense. I have bad communication skills in the way that I'll say something wrong in a way that makes sense to me, but doesn't make sense to someone else. Like if we say there's a person who is introduced to have bad communication skills and the characters know it, it could turn into a game of the character who can't communicate well trying to find a way to tell the others what he wants them to know or take it down on his own leading to the beginning of a story. Then you have a reason for a silent protagonist that is honestly more relatable than those who are just shy.
The first time I ever read a story that involved miscommunication was in a fairy tale. It was well done, because it wasn't caused by the characters, but by the person carrying the letters between the two protagonists, a husband and wife who are days apart. The messenger kept changing what the letters said to something horrible, but the story showed that even when the protagonists were given bad information, they didn't make rash decisions but made choices that showed their good hearts. I wish I could remember what the fairy tale was called, but even after doing an internet search I can't find it.
[ Spoilers for Arcane ] I love how the characters in Arcane (who you said had generic tropes, btw) are an amazing and complex mix of many of these tropes. Most of them, like Vi, Silco, Jayce and Viktor are Revolutionaries, but they branch out from each other in drastic ways. Powder/Jinx start out as a generic fish out of water character but that trope causes her to become pretty much an anti-villain. All her evil acts are done in pursuit of love and acceptance. Heimerdinger is supposed to be a wise old mentor. However, as the story progresses, characters start seeing that due to his imortality his wisdom is disconnected to the drastic reality humans are living in.
For Horror themes characters, Euron Greyjoy from the ASOIAF books is just terrifying. We have undead snow zombies, political masterminds, princes and princesses, warriors, knights, Dragons and then there's just Euron Greyjoy: An eldritch demon with lovecraftian ideas about him and a "Dark passenger" that allows him to control others and possibly see the future and past planning on banging the Dragon Queen and making a massive blood sacrifice.
I love a good surprise horror element. It makes it more real. It's what really reeled me in with the Rivers of London series. The scene with the baby or the faces breaking to pieces in Rivers of London/Midnight Riot (if you've read it, you know) were so harsh and out of nowhere that it gave me the exact amount of shock that I 'needed'. If done well, it can add so much to a story.
My favourite for some reason is the story teller; a character that shows up every now and then to tell a past event, usually to give a clue to the protagonist, like Finn from Neuromancer
About the dumb trope: I think it's more hated when it's used solely to move the plot in a certain direction or when protagonists make absolutely stupid decisions constantly but barely have to face consequences
It's also just annoying to have stupid characters. Now, I'm aware this can be realistic, but that doesn't matter. Characters making blatantly stupid decisions that get them and other protagonists into big trouble is frustrating and annoying. If it's 1 character suffering from an in-character bad decision that affects just themselves, fine. But a stupid decision is different from a stupid character. A stupid character that repeatedly causes problems for the other protagonists by being stupid is just not a pleasant experiences. Yes, there's stupid people in real life, I dislike them too.
@@trafalgarlaw8373 One of the only times dumb characters are fun is in horror movies like Friday the 13th. But likely because of us getting some awesome kills because of them doing dumb decisions...
Hey, just based on the character tropes you put quite highly on your list, I recommend the Minecraft roleplay series My Hero Origins (based on MHA) from Xylophoney’s perspective. It captures a really good character arc (trying to avoid spoilers here) as well as a “dumb” character that is both comedically brilliant and has a really fun storyline. Plus it actually pulls off a “society was mean to me” trope without turning the victim into a villain (not directly, anyways). It’s a bit of a long series, fair warning, and since it’s a multi-perspective collaboration, there are some episodes that contribute more towards other characters, but it’s overall a well rounded series.
9:05 toxic friend can easily annoy the reader and generate a lot of haters if it's implemented bad so I'm guessing writers that tried to do it early in their careers might've seen negative feedback
Based on this tier list you may want to move Jujutsu Kaisen up your manga TBR. A dynamic duo where one becomes a revolutionary and one becomes a sympathetic villain and cult leader *uh*
I honestly think ANY trope can work, it just boils down to execution. I think the best usage is when they subvert your expectations to a comical level. Like the oxymoronic existence of Bremer Dan Gorst from the First Law world. Actually, I think First Law is a phenomenal example of great trope usage overall. Shivers is one of my favorite characters in all of fantasy because of this.
Well to be fair, at the end of the day, tropes are nothing more than writing tools that were developed to create stories. And just like any tool in real life, they inherently have different values which is why I believe creating a tier list can be justified. However, given the appropriate circumnstances, all of them can shine. To illustrate my point, let's say I wanted to rank spoons, knives and forks. I would obviously put spoons at the top because it's the most versatile of the 3, but does that mean that forks and knives are bad? Of course not, while I can cut a sausage or grab a meatball with a spoon, a knife and a fork will respectively be better tools for these situations. In that sense, character tropes are similar, depending on the story you're trying to tell, any trope can shine.
That's like saying all foods can work, it depends on the cook. While technically true that the best chef can make anything good with perfect execution, good ingredients and nice sides, and a random person can fuck up a good dish, some things are just better on average. The skill of the writer is one part of the equation, the trope is another. Assuming your skill remains identical, you're better off writing tropes that are generally better or more liked, especially if you're not that S-tier chef. Tropes are popular or not for a reason. An old mentor is popular among readers and authors because it accomplishes and allows for a lot of things. Same with mentor death. Meanwhile, stupid characters are usually annoying with a few exceptions.
For the hyper fixated character, a great example is from the classic sci-fi book Tiger Tiger. The main character is unremarkable and stranded on a wrecked spaceship for 200 days floating around. A ship comes by and leaves him despite seeing his signal. He memorizes the ship's details and gets so angry that he's able to MacGyver himself out of the situation and search for the ship to take revenge.
"anti-hero" is not traditionally the analogue to what you call the "anti-villain". My understanding is that it is (or was) used to describe a viewpoint character that is not a hero, rather than a hero who has some villainous qualities, such as Cugel in the Vance stories.
Based on S tier, someone will write a book about main characters duo. Antivilain mad scentist who teaches his partner a dog how to fetch ball. It would be masterpiece for Daniel :D
My book has the revolutionary trope, and it will quench that thirst... once I finish editing. I also love this trope because it feels natural to start very small, with the downtrodden individual under an oppressive regime, develop meaningful character, and then expand the story, world, stakes until Rome burns. Secret of the Magi - coming soon!
@@untotenattentaeter368 "Coming soon" is relative, just ask Martin or Rothfuss =P Update for sure though! After writing my first fantasy novel in 1 year around 2019, I have since been revising and using that novel as my case study to learn the craft! The book is turning out awesome, and I'm months from finishing--and moving on to book 2/4. The biggest changes I've made is 1) eliminating POV and generally condensing content. I now understand why people write a day in the life of characters etc. I had a bunch of that in the book, as well as starting way too early and ending way too late in the narrative. 2) ensuring all aspects of the book center around my theme "Fight not the other side but those above who divide." and 3) now that I understand the overall progress for setting, plot, and characters, putting the arcs together in a more impactful way. How you guys doing?!
One of my favourite reluctant heroes is Jalan from The Red Queens War (Mark Lawrance). He's a coward type reluctant hero, who embarks because a combination of being compelled to with violence and running from personal issues, but over the course of the trilogy you get the impression he likes being a hero, no matter how much he denies it, and his selfish justifications for selfless acts become more and more of a stretch.
WoT: I'm just going through this series for the first time (currently on book 9) and I've heard a lot of hate over certain things like the, "If only X were here, he knows how to handle women", which as a guy who was awkward around women growing up can totally relate to and find absolutely hilarious. It's only later in life, when you talk to those buddies who you thought had it figured out, that you learn that none of you had a clue and some of them just played it off better or they thought you were the suave one. Those types of tropes help make extremely human and relatable characters who are going through an insane set of circumstances. I love them.
He isn’t really bad because people were mean to him he acts as if he is entitled to being loved and people reasonably treat him the same with powers as they did without powers. He is just what happens when you give a “nice guy” superpowers
Secret/society villain can be amazing in mystery genres, where the author can lay all the pieces together and then when the reveal happens it all clicks together perfectly
The best thing of miscommunication i found is a japanese light novel called ascendence of a bookworm where euphemisms are common in noble speech which is what leads to the miscommunications. It is by far the most natural and best writing ive seen of it that I would say could single handedly make me think its A tier.
I love the dumb character taken advantage of- e.g. Puzzle in Narnia. My fav character trope is the old grumpy grizzled man (or woman, or young just make them grumpy) almost always my fav character
Interesting take on Jesse Pinkman considering his alignment veers between Chaotic Good and True Neutral. He clearly doesn't care about the law, routinely breaking it, but also holds something resembling a moral standard. Even if it is a little twisted and based on his own take on things.
I think one of the best examples of an anti-villain is Millions Knives from Trigun. He's introduced, and all you know about him at the beginning is that he kills people constantly and nearly indiscriminately. Then you find out his motivations and his end goal, and suddenly he becomes a lot more sympathetic despite being revealed as an all-out genocidal maniac.
I think Joe Goldberg from the Netflix series YOU is a great sympathetic villain. He's a serial killer, but his inner monologue is so witty, so reasonable, so fatalistic, so romantic, so relatable (at least to me) that I really quite like him.
My favorite dumb character is Dewey Crowe from the Justified tv show. Dude's got room temperature IQ and is responsible for some of the funniest lines and scenes in the series as well as some surprisingly great emotional scenes.
In terms of stupid characters, Goku is a good example of it being bad. Especially since he hasn’t always been treated like one. It’s especially bad when they do it to justify plot like Goku forgetting the talisman to lock up merged Zamasu I think a good example of a dumb character is Shark King from Suicide Squad, Jesse Pinkman a lot of the time, Forrest Gump, etc. usually they’re dumb but have a really good heart
Thank you everyone for suggesting tropes on twitter! ❤
The tier list: tiermaker.com/create/character-tropes-252322
Not seeing the link for the tier list. Am I just blind or was it missed?
I'd like to see your best and worst examples of each of these tiers!
If you like the fighter pushed too far I'd really recommend reading/playing through the Heavens Feel route of the Fate Stay Night Visual novel. It's a really great example of that trope imo.
7:40 The revelutionary. I think that all anime fans will afree with me when I say Lelouch from Code Geas is the best of this trope. By far.
Sorry for ruining the 69 likes 😔
I think when people complain about stupid characters theyre more so complaining about out of character stupidity that exists only to make the plot go in a certain way. Look at Game of Thrones, Ned and Sansa both make some very stupid decisions in the first season and nobody complains about that because it fits in with what we know about their characters, but in later seasons when Littlefinger and Tyron, characters who are supposed to be smart, start making bad decisions to move the plot in the way D&D want almost everybody hated it.
Absolutely! But I have also seen the same said for what I (personally) consider very well written unintelligent characters. Specifically a couple of King characters that I have had people complain about being dumb when... YES, they are meant to be.
For sure. I hate characters doing dumb things for the sake of plot, but Fitz fits this to a tee and I LOVE him, because even though his actions are amazingly brash, you understand his state of mind completely.
I mean stupid decisions are one thing. can happen to everyone. but when, like you said, to make the plot and everybody just goes with it instead of explaining it to that person, it´s very annoying. some stupidity is okay, but when it gets to that level that your asking, how is this person even alive with that much stupidity it gets frustating.
i had that with shiro from deadman wonderland
Yeah sure NO ONE was mad that Sansa was stupid in season 1.
Joe in YOU can be really stupid, I think he only works because of his inner monologue explaining his actions.
I'm not sure what to call it, but I love it when an unrepentant villain has been defeated or retires and tires to live a quiet life only to start caring about their little community and begrudgingly becomes a hero to defend them against a lesser evil than they were. It also ties into my love for the Bully Meets A True Nightmare trope.
I love the "badass retires and becomes a farmer" trope so much, especially when their "farm" (it can be anything really) becomes threatened and they have to fight to defend it but fear becoming the person they used to be again.
F thor for ruining Thanos' retirement.
@@Jtbrahh weirdly, this sort of [vaguely ]applied to Dracula, in the 'Dracula Untold' movie .... now that I'm thinking of it. 👀 🙃😶🤭😁😅😹🤣🤣
@@Jtbrahh I love a badass that retires and takes on a new apprentice because he sees potential in them
@@Jtbrahh
I recommend playing Red Dead Redemption and Red Dead Redemption 2.
I would love to see a tier list video where you pick a trope, and then rank character examples within that trope based on how well or how poorly they were done in popular media.
I love that idea!
Oooooo yes please!
brilliant!!
Great suggestion!
Yes!
This is going to sound stupid, but I’ve NEVER heard the “Anti-Villain” name put to that trope. It’s always been called the anti-hero and that has made me uneasy, but when the real name, anti-villain, is put to it it makes me realize how much I love it.
Anti villain I've always thought of as the guy who serves the bad side but in an honorable way. Think of Saint of Killers
@@pueblonative Yeah, it definitely makes sense. Specifically i was thinking of Killmonger in the MCU as Daniel was talking. He was doing awful shit but I agreed with his reasons and supported the thought process. But because his answer for fixing those injustices was literal genocide I’ve never been comfortable with people calling him an Anti-Hero, and he didn’t fall into any sort of a redeemed villain either. Anti-Villain was like an “AHA!” Moment for me.
I’d even say, to a point Kylo Ren was an anti-villain, especially if you take away the flawed redemption from Episode 9.
@@edgytypebeat781 ehhhh I don’t know if I’d say that. He’s just a bad guy. It’s less his environment, especially later on when you realize that he loves what he’s doing. I think when he first tried to pull Mark to his side he sold him a anti-villain type narrative. But then it became obvious, especially in the comic (granted I’ve only read about a 1/3rd of it), that he had no qualms about it.
That said, I could be swayed to seeing him as an anti-villain.
@@aaronharvey5625 Wait until season 2 or reading further into the comics. Omni Man goes on quite the journey. lol
@@ANIMEniacReview I’ve gotten to when its back on his planet and he has another son. I think the last issue I got to read (I have the first 4 of the ultimate collections and am looking to buy the compendiums to finish) was when Mark brought the kid back to earth. I can definitely see them making Omni-man more anti-villain based on where they’d left him. But from what I know now I’m not willing to call him that. If you’re saying they do go more that route with him though, I’m looking forward to seeing that play out because now that I know the word for it I know that Anti-Villain is one of my favorite tropes. (Always knew the trope was a favorite I just didn’t know what to call it).
A growing favourite for me is the knowing fool. I've not seen it that much but the characters that you slowly realise know more about the conflicts and setting that anyone around them but sell themselves as something less to achieve their goals like wit from stormlight or kruppe from malazan.
Kruppe is offended by the insinuation that Kruppe is something other than a distinguished gentleman.
The Fool from the Realm of the Elderlings is the of this archetype. Anyone knows more examples of the type? I've read Stormlight, Malazan not yet
OH yes, love this trope soo much. Especially when the character starts out as a Whimsical loveable ball of chaos and slowly we start to realise they are either smarter than they let on or way more powerful than they let on.
Also I've always called this trope "The Jester's Hat" aka they play the role of the fool because it benefits them in someway, Intentionally putting on the Jester's hat.
yeah, like Luffy from One Piece.
Reminds me a bit of Uncle from the Red Dead Redemption games, aside from the 'to achieve their goals' part.
My favorite trope is a version of the sympathetic villain that breaks and becomes a full psychopath. That dichotomy of understanding and sympathizing with the villain while also being absolutely repulsed by their actions just stays in your head forever.
Any examples?
@@FredrikSkievan joker 2019
@@FredrikSkievan homelander
Shallan’s father in the stormlight archive was kind of like this. The situation he was put in was terrible and it broke him to the point of becoming a monster
@@FredrikSkievan Keiichi Maebara
Daniels reaction to femme fatales is the most realistic and relatable thing I’ve ever seen
I was about to say that 😂
Yeah, I liked it as well.
The pronunciation on the other hand. If you know the original French pronunciation, the American version sounds so weird.
Those female characters always make me.
@@Duckfest I am now going to look up the French pronunciation, _just_ because of this comment-I'm honestly shocked that I've never done so long before now. ^-^ (Thank You🤍)
It's not relatable, for me; personally, I just really liked seeing female characters who were neither damsels in distress nor were crazy caricatures of villains who couldn't even laugh properly-convincingly /evilly/sinisterly..because I felt like there weren't many of those, in the 90s, at least..who weren't children..somehow expected to grow out of that as the "matured" and "set aside childish fancies" or whatever. 😅🙃🤦♀️😶 Loll
(But, granted, my exposure to fiction was also extremely limited back then because I wasn't allowed to watch or read anything not specifically approved of by my parents until I was high-school aged-so maybe that was just my own subjective exposure, idk.)
But I can still definitely see that being the appeal of a femme fatale for other people, anyhow. ^^ 🤭🤣😊😁
Yo Daniel, you inspired me to begin my journey into writing fiction. Specifically your videos/productive criticisms directed to authors. Vids like those and this one helped me understand the "meta" of this medium. Salute.
I just commented something like this before I read yours. Good luck on your journey!!
I don't know if there is a particular name for this trope, but I am very fascinated by the (as I call it) "nobody trope".
Where a character doesn't really have a backstory and is just thrust into the main story. I can easily see this being difficult to execute, but when done well I really love it.
An example of this trope would be Rango, the surprisingly good animated western movie by nickelodeon.
Agreed! Like it pretty much could have been anyone, but they were in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time and got swept up in events. Rango reminds me a little of Twoflower from the Discworld series. Just so so entertaining.
Oh yeah that's amazing way of doing zero to hero and Rango is underrated
Hughie from The Boys?
This trope works best in videpgames: Fallout New Vegas, Planescape: Torment, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. But the best example - Elder Scrolls games, were you just shoved into the world as you press "New Game" button
Heath Ledger's Joker is like this. No backstory, he even makes them up on the fly, but he still remains compelling and terrifying.
Just want to say how much this channel has developed my passion for fantasy and reading. I had read others but Dresden, first law, and now wheel of time are all due to you mang. Thanks!
I have a love/hate relationship with the miscommunicator trope...
When it is lazy or contrived for the drama, I hate it.
When it is deliverate deceit, it depends on the execution.
When it's a character that sees the hard truths, but doesn't know how to convince others that sacrifices must be made, so is compelled to act alone... often villainized or shunned in the process, and may or may not be vindicated in the end... I LIVE FOR THAT 💖💖
I think I'm the same way with Jerk Protagonists. When executed well, they're great because when they hit rock bottom, it shows how vulnerable and relatable they are, as well as how they don't have everything together. But when it's done poorly, I don't find it entertaining seeing them be jerks to ppl and getting away with it, and/or being unlikable and not feeling sympathetic enough for me to care about them. I can understand there are times where I'm not supposed to like them but there's gotta be a balance and a reasons for me to root for them.
Is this a AOT reference?
I personally cannot stand the miscommunicator trope for drama or pushing the plot purposes, but yknow where it frickin slaps in my opinion? comedy. when a little bit of miscommunication leads to a big yet harmless chaos it's just plain funny to me.
@@gaylordsupreme8824 man, I can't stand that trope either!
Code Geass Lelouch
13:34 I will say this character is also great when they lose that one thing drive them in, they breakdown and/or have to discover a new motive and truly found themselves.
Tywin Lannister is probably my favorite hyper-focused character. His obsession with legacy and continuing the family name, and not necessarily the individual family members, is just *chef's kiss*
I SCREECHED when you top tiered the wise old mentor because it's such a trope-y trope and a guilty pleasure.... but I too love it.
It’s fun to go back through my own stuff and see which tropes my characters have landed in because I never (and I don’t think most writers) sat down to write characters to fit within a specific trope.
Another amazing Daniel Greene video
just gotta say thank you, it's cause of your videos and your love of fantasy and writing that has gotten me to write 2 books now! (1 in editing and 1 im currently writing)
I'm writing mostly for fun, I don't expect to be good enough to really have my books be positively rated
but I hope that I can learn as I write more and more and eventually make something really good!
You are my favorite gremlin on the internet. Thanks for being unapologetically yourself.
With redeemed heroes, I saw something once that said everyone wants what Zuko had, but very few people put in the work that AtLA did. I agree with your ranking for it. When it is done well, it’s amazing, but it frequently feels a little forced or too convenient.
I really like how it isn't a "hey I'm good now" and he just betrays both sides in the process
As someone who is writing a story with a lot of these tropes (some more and less) I really enjoyed this and has helped me get motivated to keep writing it! Thanks Daniel!
I think Mirri Maz Duur from Game of Thrones was the last "villain because you were mean to me" that I liked. I think the key to pulling it off is having the hero completely shift their understanding/world view at the time of the betrayal, and making the villain seem like more than just a whiny brat. You are appalled by Mirri's actions, but you understand her hatred and unforgiveness 100%
I think that one works so well because the whole context is plain to see, so when the betrayal happens its not some out of left field thing but a logical path for her character to follow. Its not some nebulous past event that causes her to lash out, but the first time we meet the character and it kinda shows how the average person will view a conqueror, especially one using a brutal force like the Dothraki.
Watch out with that take samantha, some people literally argued that Dany was evil for burning this literal witch and Miri was justified because she killed a future 'stallion who will mount the world'. While I sympathize with what happened to Miri, I still see her as a villain too.
@@rsync9490 I said she was a villian. But I like the use of the trope here.
@@cjstanky Yeah, I wouldn't even call Mirri a villain. She's a villain only in that we thought Drogo was a badass and Dany loved him. Otherwise she's the goddamn hero of that situation, sacrificing herself to save more people from the fate that her town had just suffered.
Which points up one of my favorite aspects of writing villains, in that they're the heroes of the story that centers them. They just happen to do things that are detrimental from the perspective of the true protagonist.
I’ve always been conflicted on Mirri Maz Duur. On the one hand, I completely understand and empathize with her anger towards the Dothraki, and I understand why she would make sure Drogo died. But on the other hand she had absolutely no right to kill Dany’s unborn child, and deliberately mislead her into thinking her child would be safe (also keep in mind that Dany is a kid herself - she’s 13/14 in the first book.) But it’s a central theme in this series that people’s emotions can lead them to do terrible and tragic things when they’re not properly dealt with.
LOVE your flour analogy! I will henceforth be applying it to everything, vocally, as often as possible.
I LOVE the wise old mentor trope, but I love it even more when the wise old mentor is powerful as shit in the world. This is very common in anime. Like the character doesn't even have to be good, just give him grey hair and make him absurdly powerful and you got me
With the profile picture, I'm guessing you're thinking of Rayleigh. And indeed, it truly is great. They get to be epic, show a power ceiling of where the protagonist may reach, and have the knowledge to get the protagonists to a higher level. It works nicely. They're also often lore-relevant/famous characters, which makes the protagonist cool by association.
A trope I love is when a character starts out as egotistic, overconfident and loved by most, but actually weak and useless, realizing that their ego got the better of them and starts working hard to become a hero and what they thought they were before, but slowly turning into a villain as they realize how horrible the world is and eventually becomes either a ruler, or some unknown living in the shadows. That was a long sentence, but I can't figure out how to shorten it.
Btw, I'm up for book recs with this trope for the mc, because I've only seen it in fanfics.
The dumb trope: I LOVE the himbo characters who aren't as bright but have big Golden retriever energy and are unapologetically loyal and loving
Youre creepy
Adolin. case closed.
what type of flaw could you give this type of character to still be interesting? being dumb doesn’t count if it’s inherent to their loving and loyal, apparently dog-like nature.
@@Mr_Spaghetti Hmm, depends on the character, no? It's just a trope, so you can build from there
@@Mr_Spaghetti maybe being unable to take situations seriously? a lot of times that behavior develops as a coping mechanism, so that can be used as a point of fleshing out their backstory. also, not knowing when to stop talking-it kinda goes along with the first flaw i mentioned and can help create unintentional conflicts
I’ve been recently watching BB for the first time and one thing that impressed me is how, in a way, the same thing that makes Jesse so sympathetic is the same thing that makes him a villain. After his first kill he goes on a soul-crushing self-hate spiral (which had been simmering for a while) which explodes during his final AA meeting, there you can see how the contept he feels about himself is transefered to those he sees as the lowest kind of being with whom he identifies: aka the drug addicts, he sees them being as weak and as perverse as he sees himself. “He should know, he is a Junkie and he “knows” he is terrible”. So whatever he does to them (be it cooking, selling or enabling) they “had it coming”. By devouring his victims he attemps to canibalize himself and his ever-increasing mistakes. Since he doesn’t feel he can ever be forgiven there’s nothing he can do but punish himself, the ones with whom Jesse identifies get sucked into his auto-destructive journey. They are all “dog killers”.
Sorry for the rant, I had to get it out😚
I love/hate Jesse!❤️
As someone who has just started writing his first book and writes for hobby, you don't know how much this video is helpful. Thank you sir!!
My favorite trope is one that I can’t think of a specific character that fits it perfectly. Basically a character that starts as sort of a mentor to the protagonist, the protagonist looks up to them, and as the plot moves forward the protagonist realizes that the mentor is not who they thought they were and the mentor becomes the main antagonist. What makes this trope so amazing to me is that the mentor becomes the antagonist not because they changed, but because the protagonist overcame their flawed view of the mentor through their own character development. It’s not like a typical villain reveal because the “villain” is there all along but becomes the antagonist as a result of character development of the protagonist and a shift in perspective. This can work especially well when the conflict between the protagonist and antagonist is a genuinely thought provoking moral dilemma, where the audience may actually agree with or sympathize with the antagonist’s perspective, and the protagonist continues to question if their perspective is truly right throughout the story.
Some close examples:
Walter White from breaking bad. If you view breaking bad from Jesse’s perspective, Walter sort of goes from a mentor role to a villain. But this doesn’t really count as Walter White is the protagonist of breaking bad despite being the villain.
Dr. Brenner from stranger things. He technically goes from mentor to villain from the perspective of Eleven, but it really isn’t executed in such a way from the viewers perspective. It’s pretty obvious from the start that Brenner is a villain, and it’s virtually impossible to argue that he is in the right even if he has good intentions.
Peacemaker from suicide squad. Peacemaker doesn’t start as a mentor, but he does start as a protagonist and ends as an antagonist due to a moral conflict with the other protagonists. I absolutely love how Peacemaker is written in Suicide Squad, it is such a genuine plot twist when he turns against the group due to his loyalty to his own moral values. Even though probably almost anyone watching Suicide Squad would root against Peacemaker, you can still easily understand his perspective, which is what makes him the perfect example of this trope besides the mentor part.
one of my favorite tropes in the "damsel" in distress who uses their captivity to infiltrate/spy on/sabotage the villain. like what orihime tried to do (and imo should've, from a narrative perspective, been more successful at) in the hueco mundo arc of bleach. this can dangerously fall into the condescending girlboss-y narrative you touched on if the author seems too proud of the subversion it provides, but when handled well can be such a great way to make your "damsel" have more agency/participation in the story and develop your villain's hubris as they underestimate the danger their own prisoner might be to them. bonus points if the captor and captive have a lot of interaction that provides character development as the captor tries to manipulate their captor into displaying fatal weaknesses.
The relationship we all are most invested in is Daniel and his cats!
My favorite is the "Hyperfocused Character" who loses their main goal unexpectedly and then has to overcome that loss of identity. The target of my revenge is already dead? The long lost treasure has rotted away? Was it all for naught?
I like the Badass that is afraid. Logan Ninefingers always trying to avoid a fight.
Very true
You have to be realistic
Say one thing about Logen Ninefingers, say he is a craven
I'd never heard of the term anti-villain even though I already loved the concept. Thank you for introducing it to me!
I'd love to hear your opinion on Psycho-Pass, a futuristic anime that deals with very interesting themes similar to Minority Report, but it has an antagonist in season 1 that I totally can get behind in terms of reasoning, even though I don't agree with the methods. Season 2's antagonist was also really good.
It's a great series, full of complexity and very interesting questions we should probably ask ourselves as a society.
Just noticing how foundational duos are in modern fantasy with the OG Lord of the Rings: if your not following Sam following Frodo into darkness, we switch perspectives to Marry and Pippin, who even when separated and trying to connect with their lords are constantly wondering about each other, or when we're with the three hunters we more and more get perspective of Gimli and Legolas as Aragorn becomes more legendary hero (with a deep connection with Arwen behind the scenes). Encountered along the way there's somewhat more toxic pairings of Faramir and Boromir, Sauruman and Wormtongue, Ugluk and Grisnag, Shagrat and Gorbag, Gollum (Slinker and Sticker), and some more positive: Bombidil and Goldberry. Three is company, nine is a fellowship, and one is a Dark Lord or an unknowable creator - but two is a marriage...or a bromance.
I've said it before and I'll say it a thousand times: Malazan has the BEST duos in all of fantasy. Quick Ben and Kalam, Tehol and Bugg, Karsa and Samar Dev, Trull and Onrack, Shadowthrone and Cotillion, Tool and Toc, Icarium and Mappo, and the list goes on.
can u plz add where they r from..I'm new..i recently started, it would be a great help..
love this videos. Also, Daniel, I have to thank you because you inspired me to start writing my own fantasy book. Your videos are great.
Peacemaker is certainly an interesting take on an anti-hero trope. He has good motivations (peace at any cost) but he was a full-on surprise villain in his first outing with the Suicide Squad. His TV show added a lot of layers to him- he was clearly haunted by his actions of the movie, literally beating himself up over it. That caused him to want to do better and he took the job at fighting the Butterflies. In my opinion he's more a villain looking for redemption than an anti-hero, much like Anubis in "Ronin Warriors," who is the prime example of a redemption arc done right. (Started off a villain, saw the error of his ways, switched sides, and became a monk.)
I love the tough guy with a heart of gold trope, think Grunkle Stan from Gravity Falls, something about them always makes them my favorite
As soon as you said revolutionary and began to explain the trope, Kelsier came to my mind. Love it.
I'd like to hear your take on the following trope:
- 4th. wall thinking (the character knows its role in the story and acts to fulfill the role, or attempts to avoid the faith. Like a princess who is needs to be married, or a prophet who needs to do what is been foreseen etc.)
Anti-villians can also be sympathetic people trying to do the right thing but in monstrous ways.
Taravingian for example
I'd say that it's the same for John Kramer aka Jigsaw from the Saw franchise. He thinks he does a good thing by making people apreciate their lives more, but does it in a dangerous and monstrous way by forcing them to beat deathtraps.
But you can sympatize with him, even more so in Saw X.
He may be a villain, butyou can't hate him
Including Jessie Pinkman was a fantastic example of the anti-villain. It would help so much if you could give examples good and bad for the other tropes.
Yes, great video but I wanted more examples!
Dear fantasy novelists:
Please give us more girl-girl or woman-woman ride-or-die Duos!
Frodo & Sam, Locke & Jean, Royce & Hadrian, Wax & Wayne, Fafrhd and the Grey Mouser, Master Li and Number Ten Ox, Gotrek & Felix, Egil & Nix... so many bromances. Let's give the ladies some of that action.
No they shouldn't. It's still 2002 and all girls do is just bicker about dolls and clothes. They don't make "best friends".
/s
No.
Marasi and Wayne in Wax and Wayne's fourth book. I know it's not woman on woman, but it is peak
“The _religious (beat for effect) zealot_ trope”
Preacher Aaron: Hold my sacrifice
Jinx from Arcane is a beautiful example of anti-villain, besides forming a complicated duo with her sister Vi.
The big tough guy who's actually soft at heart will always be my favorite character
Daniel making Uncle Iroh the pic for mentor shows how much he loves atla even tho he doesn't talk about it. espcially since he brought up others like the GOAT Moraine
Yo the antivillian description you gave is just a perfect way to describe (some/most of) the characters in the show Succession (huge recommend to anyone who hasnt seen it) and it really is an amazing trope
I think one possible way for the "reluctant hero" trope to persist throughout the whole story and still work is if the hero has an inherent good nature and really wants to trust people, but the outside world and that reality forced them to fight their instincts to survive. The issues of their world are persisting, even towards the end and making the hero still hesitant, but at the same time, their instinct to want and do good persists too.
A good example if a bad decision maker who just causes conflict I think would be viserys from HOTD, but he works because he's so fucking sympathetic and you can totally see why he says what he says
I really just love hearing your thoughts on stuff like this
Absolutely love your work man. Recently discovered you got me to start Brandon Sanderson. I started with War Breaker and in a short month I've listened to every single audiobook available including the Starsight series. I absolutely love all of it. Now I'm onto Joe Abercrombie and his work is equally amazing in different ways.
I can't wait to listen to anything you recommend.
Hats off to the incredible Michael Kramer and Steven Pacey, absolutely incredible jobs on the books.
2:00 *"Reluctant Heroes" from Attack on Titan ost intensifies*
5:35 that's why Loghain from Dragon Age made such a good secondary antagonist to the blight. He had good reason for betraying various characters and it came down to a disagreement on tactics and an unwillingness to accept outside help.
Regarding the Anti-Villain trope, there is a good argument to be made that Breaking Bad is as good as it is, and was as successful as it was, because its lead duo of characters is a duo of Anti-Villains. Both Walter and Jesse aren't heroes.
My favourite character trope is the 'Chosen One'. Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, Anakin Skywalker, Paul Atreides, Rand al'thor, Neo are 🤌🤌🤌
In terms of revolutionary, I'd recommend Flint from Black Sails as an amazing example (he also contains a combination of anti-villain and anti-hero traits that it's hard to really say that he definitively leans more one way more than the other overall); it also has a good use of the miscommunication trope in the sense that because he does so much bad shit or lies so often, and also majorly due to his critical motivations as a character, he can't often really communicate his intentions or when he does people just end up not believing him and it's just stupidly well done, especially when going back and rewatching the start once you have all the information needed to really understand him and why he's acting the way he is
One of my fav Greene videos because of the remarks on revolutionaries. V insightful.
Yes thank you for bringing back content like this.. really missed it!
I love this! My personal favorite trope (as basic as it is) are rivals and antiheroes. I understand why you put it there are the tierlist however since the trope is a lil overdone and not done as well. But there are a couple gems in things like games and anime who act as part of a ying yang with the protagonist. A good example of this would be someone like Vergil from Devil May Cry who reflects his brother as an opposite but not completely. A good rival who makes you question the protagonist’s either motives or ideals are such a breath of fresh air especially when they share great chemistry. Great video!
You had to mention Flowers for Algernon, now I want a review of it. It was probably the best book I read in school.
One of my favorites is a character tropes is the charismatic cult leader. I hate cults in real life but cult leaders in fantasy/sf are fascinating because they're not lying they can give you powers, they can actually be working for a lovecraftian god. This makes them even scarier but more interesting. My favorite recent example is Ethan Hawke from Moon Knight
I have to disagree with the miscommunication one. If the character is set up to have bad communication skills it'll make sense. I have bad communication skills in the way that I'll say something wrong in a way that makes sense to me, but doesn't make sense to someone else. Like if we say there's a person who is introduced to have bad communication skills and the characters know it, it could turn into a game of the character who can't communicate well trying to find a way to tell the others what he wants them to know or take it down on his own leading to the beginning of a story. Then you have a reason for a silent protagonist that is honestly more relatable than those who are just shy.
The first time I ever read a story that involved miscommunication was in a fairy tale. It was well done, because it wasn't caused by the characters, but by the person carrying the letters between the two protagonists, a husband and wife who are days apart. The messenger kept changing what the letters said to something horrible, but the story showed that even when the protagonists were given bad information, they didn't make rash decisions but made choices that showed their good hearts. I wish I could remember what the fairy tale was called, but even after doing an internet search I can't find it.
[ Spoilers for Arcane ]
I love how the characters in Arcane (who you said had generic tropes, btw) are an amazing and complex mix of many of these tropes.
Most of them, like Vi, Silco, Jayce and Viktor are Revolutionaries, but they branch out from each other in drastic ways.
Powder/Jinx start out as a generic fish out of water character but that trope causes her to become pretty much an anti-villain. All her evil acts are done in pursuit of love and acceptance.
Heimerdinger is supposed to be a wise old mentor. However, as the story progresses, characters start seeing that due to his imortality his wisdom is disconnected to the drastic reality humans are living in.
For Horror themes characters, Euron Greyjoy from the ASOIAF books is just terrifying. We have undead snow zombies, political masterminds, princes and princesses, warriors, knights, Dragons and then there's just Euron Greyjoy: An eldritch demon with lovecraftian ideas about him and a "Dark passenger" that allows him to control others and possibly see the future and past planning on banging the Dragon Queen and making a massive blood sacrifice.
I think your content is good enough to leave the melodramatic antics out.
I love a good surprise horror element. It makes it more real. It's what really reeled me in with the Rivers of London series. The scene with the baby or the faces breaking to pieces in Rivers of London/Midnight Riot (if you've read it, you know) were so harsh and out of nowhere that it gave me the exact amount of shock that I 'needed'. If done well, it can add so much to a story.
My favourite for some reason is the story teller; a character that shows up every now and then to tell a past event, usually to give a clue to the protagonist, like Finn from Neuromancer
About the dumb trope: I think it's more hated when it's used solely to move the plot in a certain direction or when protagonists make absolutely stupid decisions constantly but barely have to face consequences
It's also just annoying to have stupid characters. Now, I'm aware this can be realistic, but that doesn't matter. Characters making blatantly stupid decisions that get them and other protagonists into big trouble is frustrating and annoying. If it's 1 character suffering from an in-character bad decision that affects just themselves, fine.
But a stupid decision is different from a stupid character. A stupid character that repeatedly causes problems for the other protagonists by being stupid is just not a pleasant experiences. Yes, there's stupid people in real life, I dislike them too.
@@trafalgarlaw8373 One of the only times dumb characters are fun is in horror movies like Friday the 13th. But likely because of us getting some awesome kills because of them doing dumb decisions...
Hey, just based on the character tropes you put quite highly on your list, I recommend the Minecraft roleplay series My Hero Origins (based on MHA) from Xylophoney’s perspective. It captures a really good character arc (trying to avoid spoilers here) as well as a “dumb” character that is both comedically brilliant and has a really fun storyline. Plus it actually pulls off a “society was mean to me” trope without turning the victim into a villain (not directly, anyways).
It’s a bit of a long series, fair warning, and since it’s a multi-perspective collaboration, there are some episodes that contribute more towards other characters, but it’s overall a well rounded series.
9:05 toxic friend can easily annoy the reader and generate a lot of haters if it's implemented bad so I'm guessing writers that tried to do it early in their careers might've seen negative feedback
Bad communitcator is the worse, so many stories are build on "they have been friends for years, but still can talk each other to solve anything"
Missed your tier lists, so thanks for doing this! Hope you'll do more in the future.
Based on this tier list you may want to move Jujutsu Kaisen up your manga TBR. A dynamic duo where one becomes a revolutionary and one becomes a sympathetic villain and cult leader *uh*
And don't forget the main character is a little dumb😅😅
Read this and immediately thought of Naruto. The shonen formula is still hanging in strong lol.
That series fell off so hard though
@@melteddali8000 no way. its doing better than ever
13:20 that flour analogy might be the best analogy I've heard in ages.
I honestly think ANY trope can work, it just boils down to execution. I think the best usage is when they subvert your expectations to a comical level. Like the oxymoronic existence of Bremer Dan Gorst from the First Law world. Actually, I think First Law is a phenomenal example of great trope usage overall. Shivers is one of my favorite characters in all of fantasy because of this.
All but the "I'm a villian because I was bullied" trope. There is a difference between self-inflicted tragedy and "poor me" tragedy.
Well to be fair, at the end of the day, tropes are nothing more than writing tools that were developed to create stories. And just like any tool in real life, they inherently have different values which is why I believe creating a tier list can be justified. However, given the appropriate circumnstances, all of them can shine.
To illustrate my point, let's say I wanted to rank spoons, knives and forks. I would obviously put spoons at the top because it's the most versatile of the 3, but does that mean that forks and knives are bad? Of course not, while I can cut a sausage or grab a meatball with a spoon, a knife and a fork will respectively be better tools for these situations. In that sense, character tropes are similar, depending on the story you're trying to tell, any trope can shine.
@@markopusic8258 true
That's like saying all foods can work, it depends on the cook. While technically true that the best chef can make anything good with perfect execution, good ingredients and nice sides, and a random person can fuck up a good dish, some things are just better on average. The skill of the writer is one part of the equation, the trope is another. Assuming your skill remains identical, you're better off writing tropes that are generally better or more liked, especially if you're not that S-tier chef.
Tropes are popular or not for a reason. An old mentor is popular among readers and authors because it accomplishes and allows for a lot of things. Same with mentor death. Meanwhile, stupid characters are usually annoying with a few exceptions.
For the hyper fixated character, a great example is from the classic sci-fi book Tiger Tiger. The main character is unremarkable and stranded on a wrecked spaceship for 200 days floating around. A ship comes by and leaves him despite seeing his signal. He memorizes the ship's details and gets so angry that he's able to MacGyver himself out of the situation and search for the ship to take revenge.
"anti-hero" is not traditionally the analogue to what you call the "anti-villain". My understanding is that it is (or was) used to describe a viewpoint character that is not a hero, rather than a hero who has some villainous qualities, such as Cugel in the Vance stories.
Based on S tier, someone will write a book about main characters duo. Antivilain mad scentist who teaches his partner a dog how to fetch ball. It would be masterpiece for Daniel :D
My book has the revolutionary trope, and it will quench that thirst... once I finish editing. I also love this trope because it feels natural to start very small, with the downtrodden individual under an oppressive regime, develop meaningful character, and then expand the story, world, stakes until Rome burns. Secret of the Magi - coming soon!
Update??????
UPDATE?
@@untotenattentaeter368 "Coming soon" is relative, just ask Martin or Rothfuss =P
Update for sure though! After writing my first fantasy novel in 1 year around 2019, I have since been revising and using that novel as my case study to learn the craft!
The book is turning out awesome, and I'm months from finishing--and moving on to book 2/4.
The biggest changes I've made is 1) eliminating POV and generally condensing content. I now understand why people write a day in the life of characters etc. I had a bunch of that in the book, as well as starting way too early and ending way too late in the narrative. 2) ensuring all aspects of the book center around my theme "Fight not the other side but those above who divide." and 3) now that I understand the overall progress for setting, plot, and characters, putting the arcs together in a more impactful way.
How you guys doing?!
@@PhoenixCrown Your story sounds cool, will you be publishing these books? as for me im just a new writer so Im kind of getting into it
One of my favourite reluctant heroes is Jalan from The Red Queens War (Mark Lawrance). He's a coward type reluctant hero, who embarks because a combination of being compelled to with violence and running from personal issues, but over the course of the trilogy you get the impression he likes being a hero, no matter how much he denies it, and his selfish justifications for selfless acts become more and more of a stretch.
WoT: I'm just going through this series for the first time (currently on book 9) and I've heard a lot of hate over certain things like the, "If only X were here, he knows how to handle women", which as a guy who was awkward around women growing up can totally relate to and find absolutely hilarious. It's only later in life, when you talk to those buddies who you thought had it figured out, that you learn that none of you had a clue and some of them just played it off better or they thought you were the suave one. Those types of tropes help make extremely human and relatable characters who are going through an insane set of circumstances. I love them.
dude, the witch in Baldur's Gate 3 left me feeling horrified. That was so well done.
I think Hal from Megamind is the best instance of “I’m bad because people were mean”
He isn’t really bad because people were mean to him he acts as if he is entitled to being loved and people reasonably treat him the same with powers as they did without powers. He is just what happens when you give a “nice guy” superpowers
Secret/society villain can be amazing in mystery genres, where the author can lay all the pieces together and then when the reveal happens it all clicks together perfectly
The best thing of miscommunication i found is a japanese light novel called ascendence of a bookworm where euphemisms are common in noble speech which is what leads to the miscommunications. It is by far the most natural and best writing ive seen of it that I would say could single handedly make me think its A tier.
I love the dumb character taken advantage of- e.g. Puzzle in Narnia.
My fav character trope is the old grumpy grizzled man (or woman, or young just make them grumpy) almost always my fav character
14:16 this is similar but I love having sadistic battle priests like Kirei Kotomine or Alexander Anderson
Interesting take on Jesse Pinkman considering his alignment veers between Chaotic Good and True Neutral. He clearly doesn't care about the law, routinely breaking it, but also holds something resembling a moral standard. Even if it is a little twisted and based on his own take on things.
Your content is great and super helpful, but I'd love to see more examples in your videos when discussing tropes, etc.
The thumbnail advertises a list of tier list tropes, and that is what I demand.
I think one of the best examples of an anti-villain is Millions Knives from Trigun. He's introduced, and all you know about him at the beginning is that he kills people constantly and nearly indiscriminately. Then you find out his motivations and his end goal, and suddenly he becomes a lot more sympathetic despite being revealed as an all-out genocidal maniac.
Twist villains? Nahh. Now twist heroes, on the other hand? Hell yeah. I wanna see more characters like ghaleon from lunar 2!
I think Joe Goldberg from the Netflix series YOU is a great sympathetic villain. He's a serial killer, but his inner monologue is so witty, so reasonable, so fatalistic, so romantic, so relatable (at least to me) that I really quite like him.
0:51 video starts here if you want dont wanna hear him yap
considering what you said on anti-villains i think you should really read Worm: parahumans
it has an anti villain protagonist that is done really well
My favorite dumb character is Dewey Crowe from the Justified tv show.
Dude's got room temperature IQ and is responsible for some of the funniest lines and scenes in the series as well as some surprisingly great emotional scenes.
“Room temperature IQ” has got to be my favorite way ever to describe stupidity
always love a good old tier list video :)
In terms of stupid characters, Goku is a good example of it being bad. Especially since he hasn’t always been treated like one. It’s especially bad when they do it to justify plot like Goku forgetting the talisman to lock up merged Zamasu
I think a good example of a dumb character is Shark King from Suicide Squad, Jesse Pinkman a lot of the time, Forrest Gump, etc. usually they’re dumb but have a really good heart