I love the anti-antichrist trope, where you have someone fated to be evil or bring about some diaster and they choose to work against it. It's kinda this ultimate expression of free will and moral choice to me.
One of my favorite tropes is "ancient high tech" that ties into the "ruins of a dead civilization" trope. It's when the long dead civilization possess a much higher level of technology than the current one.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" (that's what I use in my works, anyway, it's never really fantasy or supernatural, huh... sci-fi in disguise!)
I would love to see a farm boy trope done where the fact that the protagonist is a farm boy is somehow crucial later on. Like they get to the climax and nobody knows how to grow corn until the hero arrives and saves the day
"Oh no, the fate of our entire existence rests on our ability to produce cheese!", she exclaims. "Cheese you say?", our protoganist confidently asks as he walks in the room holding a cheese wheel.
@@ArinJager1 you get it. My present has to be only bones though, the truth, revealed to me, has to be alluded to. I don't actually know for certain where this trope captured me, I remember some dim hint of a fantasy book barely describing the long buried remains of a clover leaf interchange. Possibly a hint of what to them was an ancient lost city. But that feels like that was all that was said in that story. I might be wrong, maybe I'm writing this book and attributing it to someone else before even finding a pen. I also think I remember the Shannara series maybe at some point came out with that as a plot line? I can't remember exactly, I consumed fantasy series so rapidly and for so long now that whole volumes were only partially digested. And I find they are never as appealing the second time through....
Not a book but Adventure Time captures this pretty well. Starts out as a fun, fantasy kids TV world with the main protagonist randomly being human in a world filled with weird creatures, and as the seriousness and plot ramps-up we learn its a post-apocalyptic Earth.
I love when parts of them remain, and are coveted by the civilisations present. Like the Targaryens being the last Valyrians and the Valyrian steel swords.
Yup! If you want recommendations, Hollow Knight does this FLAWLESSLY. It’s not a book, but it’s a really good video game, I recommend you check it out!
One of my favorite tropes is two powerful characters from separate subplots coming into conflict. The moment when they both realize they are dealing with a serious threat is so satisfying.
Some of my favorites: "well intentioned leader, corrupt court." This can be anything from Ned Stark to Jayce from Arcane. And the somewhat related "burden of the crown" trope.
@@pIayingwithmahwii While the mistborn books are great it's not quite what I was talking about. A lot of modern fantasy these days acts kind of embarrassed to have monarchies since it feels like ASOIAF has reminded everyone about how they're actually a terrible form of government, and Mistborn is no exception with them treating the last empire as compromising ideals to match the crisis. Although in real life Monarchies sucked, there's no reason fantasy *has* to always mirror that and sometimes I want a story that plays it straight with a heroic king upholding (or just trying to uphold) a tradition of nobility and honor.
Not a book, but a webcomic "White Noise" does this as well, though its not the main focus it is a large driving force behind the conflict the protagonists face
One of my favourite tropes is “chosen one realising they’re not the chosen one.” I especially love it when they’re relived by it, like, “thank f*ck, I’m going to take a nap now, tell me when you find the right person.”
"Every trope can be done well." Hard agree. My favorite fantasy tv show (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) has my least favorite trope (the chosen one). My favorite trope is the self defeating evil. I love it when an antagonist's own actions cause his or her downfall.
Isn't Rand major chosen one trope. Also Harry Potter.. Buffy isn't really a chosen one I wouldn't say. She is a chosen one chosen by fate to fight evil. If she died there would be another to be chosen.
@@mr.e7541 Harry isn't really a chosen one either. It's implied HEAVILY that Nevill could've very easily been Harry in terms of becoming Voldemort's 8th horcrux and thus, being the key to ultimately killing him, had Voldemort decided Neville was the one. Hell if anything, the only reason Harry made it as far as he did is because everyone else helped him, like Dumbledore, Sirius, Remus, etc. He was a savant at Quidditch, but was average at best at spells, and most of his special abilities that gave him an edge, such as speaking parstletounge and being unable to be killed by voldemort because they shared sibling wands, having a spiritual connection to him, etc, came from circumstances that fell upon him by chance. In other words, Harry was one of TWO boys born on a prophesied day. But considering Neville killed Nagina, I'd say both him and Harry were the "chosen one"
In the case of Batman, the “no killing” thing works. I hate that trope, and for so long I didn’t get why Batman didn’t kill and loved Snyder’s for that, but I’ve realized that it has nothing to do with thinking killing is inherently bad, otherwise he wouldn’t be friends with Jim, who has certainly killed, but it is out of fear of what he could become if he crossed that line. He’s just holding on to his sanity by a hair, and having that limit is the only thing keeping him from becoming a total psychopathic murderer. As he says in Under the Red Hood, “if I allow myself to go down into that place, I’ll never come out.” So most of the time that trope is horrible, but when explored well, like it is with Batman, it’s great. Edit: I should clarify that I don’t mean a natural reluctance to kill is bad, I find characters that have an emotional response to the prospect of killing so much more compelling, but when it’s just out of some sort of arbitrary code, especially if it only applies to the big baddie and not his minions, that’s the generally bad trope.
Not killing, in general, is an admirable quality. Someone not wanting blood on their hands or soul is probably one of the most easily relatable qualities you can write into a character who is forced into violence, assuming most people don't actually want to kill people. It can be a contrivance but most tropes, when done poorly are exactly that anyway.
It's rare that a trope makes a character or story more unique. Without that trope Batman becomes entirely indistinguishable from the plethora of anti-hero killer vigilantes that completely over-saturate modern comics.
That's always the take but really doesn't make much sense either. After a while all of the Joker's bodies should weigh on Batman and his mental health but we never really explore how Bruce feels after the 6th time Joker goes on a killing spree after another escape. Does he send money to their families, reads their obituaries and blame himself, ever try to argue for capital punishment using lobbyists to convince politicians and judges, or push hard to try to fix Joker and the other villains via mental health developments? The idea Batman would go crazy if he crossed the line would work better if Bruce was portrayed more often as on the fringe instead of either a total rock or punisher-lite when they tell that latter story.
The ones that take me out are when the character won't kill anyone, but they have no problem working alongside a Punisher type character who straight up executes the mooks the MC takes down non-lethally.
One that obsessed me since I started reading: "The protagonist that slowly but surely becomes the antagonist". One of the very early books I read was a trilogy narrating Alexandros since childhood to manic tyrant. Which is a similar reason of why DUNE became one of the most influencing tales for me the second I got it. And ever since, a well executed "Road to Perdition" is to me an instant hook. How to forget also such powerful characters like Prometeus or the interpretation of Lucifer given by James Joyce. I'd also like to add Cao Cao from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Hell, besides exquisite narration skills my main drive to read Kvothe-self-propaganda is the hope he turns out to be a big bad dick at the end of it all.
I love that trope too. It’s the reason I love Heartless by Marissa Meyer. The main girl starts as this loveable, sweet character who is obsessed with baking and has a crush on a guy, but she gets steadily colder and more evil as the novel goes. It’s rather like watching a train wreck.
This trope is one of the main reasons why I stuck through Worm for the whole thing. Taylor Herbert starts as this injured puppy that you just want to hug better, and ends up as, well, not that.
By „a trilogy narrating Alexandros since childhood to manic tyrant” you meant something about Alexander the great? If yeas, can you please give a title?😅
Goblin: eliminates two rank categories "get outta here, we don't need you" Also Goblin: puts multiple tropes halfway between two categories because there's not enough categories for everything to have its own place.
Look up the Battle of Vienna in 1683. Tolkien was inspired heavily by that battle when writing the battle of Helm's deep, with the riders of Rohirrim being inspired by the Winged Hussars.
see… although I adore the Helm’s Deep sequence I despise the heroic last stand trope. The reason I actually like it at Helm’s Deep is because there it is the only appropriate course of action. The nature of the villain and the setup for the battle make it appropriate there. Without that kind of setup though… the trope is terrible, overused and ridiculous. Most of what is wrong with the fantasy genre is people trying to replicate Tolkien without having much understanding of what he did or how he did it.
Something I want to say regarding Irredeemable evil aliens... for me, this works much MUCH better, if they aren't "evil" but just their nature. Example being the Xenomorphs, they aren't inherently evil (as far as II understand it anyway) but rather they just follow their very predatory nature. Which is very unfortunate for us.
Not sci-fi, but fantasy. The Fell in the Books of the Raksura are very much like this. They're not actually evil, but they are a species of greedy predators that don't have any empathy or love except between each other and even that is an extremely distorted and unhealthy version of the word "love". They hunt people and desire their things, without having any concept of value for them, nor caring about the suffering they inflict. Sapient species are simple food and entertainment for them. In another story this would be simply labeling them as evil, but we see a fair amount of variations of sapient predator species with various degrees of empathy and opinions about each other, some of which really don't mind eating sapient people either because food is food and well, luring them in with sweet words works just as well as stalking them to hunt them doesn't it? So they're irredeemable because why in the world would they change? Its literally in their nature. But its not evil. Its just taking advantage of the fact that they're just as smart as you are. Prey and predator are on the same level again.
Xenomorphs are considered inherently evil by some fans, because they're a bioweapon in the current canon. Some comics have them as simply evolving on a very hostile planet, but currently they were created, for the express purpose of enacting genocide. They have no will of their own, etc. being more likened to nuclear weapons or rogue AI rather than animals.
I'm not a fan of the idea of an intelligent race that's congenitally evil, because that just completely flattens out individual characteristics. An unrelenting, ravenous animal type of species is pretty awesome. But it's hard to call that 'evil'. I wouldn't call polar bears evil but I sure wouldn't want to wake up to one in my yard.
@@mattrobson3603 That depends. A species can be fully sentient and sapient and still be "perceived" as evil by the simple fact that they are hostile to us. Imagine an alien species that are predators by nature. Aka, they are intelligent carnivores. Do they technically have any reason to not try and kill and eat us?
@tnecniw I believe that nature is a very fragile point to lean on regarding fiction. Nothing in a narrative is truly natural because it's all created by a writer This might sound overly pedantic at first, but truly natural, instinctual entities exist in a larger, natural environment where their behaviour makes sense as a part of the greater whole. Short of Tolkien, very few authors think that deeply about worldbuilding, which is super understandable, he went hard, but it does lead to a lot of dead ends when we dig into stories. (It's the reason we should try not to get too sweaty about Star Wars lore etc...) Regarding something like the xenomorphs, my take is that they're closer to a fantasy monster than an animal. They are vaguely humanoid but move on all fours (usually), they look almost skeleton-like, they bleed acid and, most importantly, are never shown to eat. They kill, they violate, but they don't eat. Like some sort of serial killer/grapist. What natural environment would create that? I doubt any.
Based on S categories, in the future, someone will write a book about two protagonists, an evil mentor and his ex student from an evil empire. Competing in a race which one first will find a key in the deadly ruins of long gone city. The key shows coordinate to the new word in which flying city located with whatever macguffin the heroes craving for. Sounds cheesy :D
I love how wheel of time has most of the tropes lower in the list, but executes each of them masterfully. farm boy, incredibly powerfull chosen one, cant kill women, etc etc
@@mwva13 not really. Wheel of time came out in 1990, and these wwre done long before. it got away because it did these tropes in brand new ways and excecuted them masterfully
I never thought about my favourite trope, but I've now realised that the noble bastard trope is my favourite; mainly because Fitz and Farseer (soon-to-be Realm of the Elderlings as a whole) has reshaped my entire view on fantasy.
I just finished the Fool and the Assassin series, and I cry. I cry for the characters, both of joy and sadness, and I cry because I already miss this story 😭
I know many people say its the most overplayed trope, but personally I love the chosen one trope. Especially when the trope is used subtly with hints here and there within the plot to it
I kind of hate it. Usually it just undermines character's choices and challenges they faced. "Yeah, sure, you have come this far because of your determination and strong will and all, but did you know you were destined for greatness this entire time and fate wouldn't let you fail? It was, in fact, not because of tour strength of character, but because of quite literally plot armor. Still, good job beating that guy who was destined to fail from the start"
@@iamdivan7368 I’ve been thinking lately that the way to save this trope is to de-emphasize “destiny”. The meaning of being a chosen one shouldn’t be someone who is simply fated to win, but instead a person who by circumstance is uniquely positioned and capable of accomplishing the task. Because that is a very real thing- no one’s accomplishments occur in a vacuum, we stand on the shoulders of giants right. So you can have a chosen one who isn’t innately special, but just happen to be in the right place at the right time, but still have to struggle and earn their victories (and have failures).
It’s funny, I was just thinking about love triangles and how much I generally dislike them, but now I realize that it may be more that I dislike the ”characters who only exist to be love interests”, because almost all love triangles in books also rely on that trope to make it “work”.
Personally what I hate about this trope is when it's done with immature people who will violently compete, fight, hate, disdain their "opponent" and/or if the trio are just all ending hurting eatch others. I only like it when it's done with emotionally matured people/who grow over the story.
My issue with the love triangles, is it really just doesn't work most often because it requires lack of commitments, and decision making, and just idiocy and lack of communication, goodness gracious. Okay, quite a lot of things that feed into it when I got started :) There's a reason why I think they aren't very typical or easy to see in IRL romances. They CAN happen. And even where they do, they are probably, well, not ideal. It's the rare ones that get it all together. I suppose that's true for most relationships though, but that is that extra element of hard. And if I can't believe the characters, or I think they're just being contrived to be dumb on a number of issues to make it work, I will like them less.
know what's worse? a character that's friendzoned (and cock-blocked) just to be friendzoned... a "bait and switch love triangle" (like how Shulk ends up with Fiora - a typical love interest for the sake of being a love interest, and friendzones Melia - a much more interesting character with an actual backstory, unlike Fiora, the "childhood friend") [it's from the xenoblade videogame, just an example, don't mind me] even worse than that? A bait and switch love interest that gets killed off (which Fiora did get killed off too, semingly, but then she comes back for some reason, reason being getting possessed by some spirit or whatever... she's missing for the majority of the story and still gets the D... unlike the other girl who spends more time with the protag)
I once saw a love triangle that did work (at least for me) because all members of the triangle were adults, all were developped characters, and the reason why the triangle existed was good for me : woman loves a man, they get together, good. Man 1 is killed, woman grieves then develops a romance with man 2. But man 1 gets resurected and man 2 gets cursed and disappears. Woman relives a bit her story with man 1 but ultimately has to choose cause magic makes that only one can live. Very simplified, but that is a love triangle I can appreciate. " Teen girl loves boy 1 but oh no she loves boy 2 too she can't choose, they will have to fight to win her stupid heart, so hard", can go to hell 😠
On the topic of both fallen civilizations and ancient artefacts. I think you should check out Frostbound by Dylan King, available on Royal Road for free. There is just something about giant statues and bulidings dilapidated and covered in ice that makes me go YASSSS whenever they are mentioned.
Farm Boy/Small Village will forever be GOATed for me, it allows for the greatest level of contrast between where the character begins and where they end. Guess it depends on the story you're telling, but for a travelogue I think it's essential. If a character starts out in a big city then they're likely already more knowledgeable about the wider world and the reader won't get to learn about as many things through the eyes of that character discovering them for the first time. Thinking of stories like One Piece, Luffy wasn't a farmer but he starts out in a small village.
rising to glory by own means (or falling from grace and then rising once more) is a way better thing than the chosen hero (who's got a plot armor and that's about it)
6:04 That artefact is what's called a clay nail/foundantion cone; used in ancient Mesopotamia in the third and early second millenium BC. These were basically cylindrical nail-like cones inscribed with cuneiform then baked and stuck into temple foundations, basically to serve as markers that the temple or whatever ritual building was the divine property of the god (in ancient Mesopotamia, it was believed that each city basically belonged to a that city's patron deit(ies), and the temple was where the god physically dwelt in the form of a statue/idol.) These cones also usually denoted the specific king who deposited the cone, usually with some self-laudatory language, both to legitimize himself (pretty much all Mesopotamian rulers were dudes bar one or two per millenium) as the rightful monarch of X city-state(s). A good example from the late 20th century BC comission by Lipit-Eshtar of the city-of Isin goes: "When I, Lipit-Eshtar, the humble shepherd of Nippur, the true farmer of Ur, ceaseless provider of Eridu, the en priest suitable for Uruk, king of Isin, king of Sumer and Akkad, the favourite of Inana, established justice in Sumer and Akkad, then I built the E-mete-namlugala, my great residence."
It's so, so difficult to escape some of these, it makes everything easier and allows the reader to understand things much quicker. One phrase "He was the bastard son of the king, he lived in the castle his whole life". Done, almost anything can be justified with only that. Choose a personality and all the intrigues, secrets, eventual conflicts can be explained some way or the other. The 'farm boy' explains why the characters do not know anything and are 'pure' of heart. The 'going to a new world' is essentially the same thing, with the twist that it can allow people to be more cunning or deceptive if desired. The master and disciple allow you to know things you shouldn't, be them good or bad, and to develop their power much faster than 'normal'. The 'good bastard' trope allows the character to be involved in all forms of politics but still be free to travel, or to have a justification to battle against others and know secret information. The chosen one allows for all the coincidences and 'destiny' to play a role, most times coupled with other tropes, it also gives a strong initial motivation by the protagonist being/having something the bad guy desires/despises. Also very convenient for sudden powerbursts and new powers. New authors can either benefit immensely, or be trapped in the hell of only writing stereotypes and tropes.
A trope I really dislike is memory loss. Specifically later in the story. I can be sold on it if it’s the premise of a story, but I hate it when the emotional history I have shared with a character is suddenly gone
Appreciate this Goblin. I'm in the middle of outlining a Sci/Fi novel that I plan to have a rough draft completed by the end of 2022 and this was really helpful. Just to see how many tropes I have unconsciously included in my outline. I am now changing an "instant level-up" I had inadvertently created for my main protagonist. It was lazy, I agree.
I'd love to see a "magic system trope" tier list. Loved your soft v hard magic system video, and I'd love to see a rundown of things like "storing your magic in an item for later" "this item multiplies your magic powers" "this area somehow totally negates your power" "certain people can only access one aspect of a more complex power"
A good subversion of the chosen one trope is if a chosen one was destined to save the world, but decided to instead take the power for themselves for evil. Basically Anakin Skywalker, but becoming evil by his own choice, instead of being manipulated.
@@jacindaellison3363 I've always wondered about that. A story told from two "chosen one" perspectives, each destined to the be the heroes of competing prophecies/gods and fight each other would be interesting.
I think one of the reasons The Expanse is one of the best sci-fi shows of all time (come at me) is because they were so fucking SMART with what future-technology would look like... in addition to actually having physics that makes sense for space travel (like thrusters in the FRONT of the ship). I digress - but it means I agree with the placement of the misuse of future-tech being total trash tier lol edit: oh hey, The Expanse also has some ruins of ancient alien civilization stuff thrown in!
The Expanse has alien artifact opening up to new worlds that are fallen ancient civilization, godlike alien threat, failing empire (inner planets), power up through ancient alien tech and Holden is quite a bit of a farm boy. They have actually used majority of the mentioned tropes and did it solid to excellent. Different points of view all coming together, separating and coming back together was used ridiculously well.
I really enjoy how there's a distinct lack of FTL travel. It really strengthens the conflicts in the settings, as they can't instantly teleport elsewhere whenever things go south. Not to bash on FTL tropes: I really enjoy it and some settings like Warhammer 40k are super creative in how they function.
I 100% agree with the fallen world trope! That always pulls me in even if I don't know anything else about the story. I start books and movies on that premise alone. 😂
@@markpiezema7592 wheel of time. Mistborn. Elantris sort of is. Shades of magic has it in a small way. Sweet tooth is a graphic novel or Netflix series, there is a lot of dystopian ya that uses that trope but a lot of those i started for the trope but didn't finish.
I enjoy the chosen one trope when it's not the main character, it makes the chosen one actually seem important and on a level way beyond the main character, actually great. Edit : Another thing I want to bring up is the power up trope, I love it when used on the villan, especially when against the chosen one.
Artifacts that have fascinating history and are well integrated into the lore of the world are great, but so often their ancient artifact-ness is just a thin mask to make the miguffin look more interesting.
After this, just hope Daniel will review "Legend of Vox Machina" Season 1. Mainly because full of clichés he may don't like and curious about his oppinion, even if I love the series. Also wish to bring joy to others, not just Critters! :)
One of my absolute favorite tropes is like the fallen hero? Usually they seem to be the mentor or something but I would consume that trope anyway it came. I would consume it a thousand times if I could. Like Kvothe in the 3rd person part of NotW
I think my favorite trope is the badass that doesn't want to fight anymore, but their past is catching up to them. I'm referring to characters like Kenshin, Vash the Stampede, Dalinar, etc.
Malazan Book of the Fallen uses some of those, especially the ones concerned with scale and time, however this also makes it harder to understand according to many people.
My mother always complains about the "Hero losing his powers" trope. She's reading this because she wants to the magician do magic. I'm a little hazy on the definition of trope, but if my understanding is correct, my favorite thing in all of the stories is when the cavalry arrives(ie Borderlanders arrive in Elfstones or Rohan arriving in LOTR). LOVE IT. Two of my least favorite that I can think of as I write this are 1)the wiping out of whole cities repeatedly within one story to the point where you basically get numbed to the death and 2) The incredibly powerful enemy that can't be stopped until the writer realizes they've made them too tough and just makes them able to be killed now for no real reason (ie Earthrise).
if you want to see an a great example of both mind control as well as 2 conflicting protagonists, read the manga: Code Geass, it masterfully handles both of those tropes simultaneously as well learning and exploring a fun magic system with great characters all in a beautifully jacked up world
I just thought about writing this, & then found this comment ! Both of these have been done well enough that their inherent constraints are essential plot elements
As soon as you said “sciencing your way out of a situation” I squealed. I love that as both an author and reader, and it’s hands down my favorite on this list. In fact, the fact it isn’t done realistically enough is why I became an author. (Also, I’m an electrical engineer, so you know, I’m probably more sensitive to it being done poorly).
My other favorite is the “new world” trope, which almost all the stories I’ve started, even the ones unpublished, also include. Everything I write/come up with typically involves a character who’s only outstanding ability is to be able to realistically “science”, finding themselves in some sort of “new world” (fantasy is my favorite, but sometimes alternate reality/timeline or other planet). Then, using their skills to both resolve their immediate situation, and little by little uncover the properties and relating lore of the world they are in.
The best example of AI gaining sentience I've ever seen is "Detroit Become Human". It deals with SO many implications of androids and artificial intelligence that I had never thought about before. If you haven't already, go play that game!
I don't know why but I just became emotional watching this. It just made me nostalgic, I found this channel when i was going through tough times and it got me back into reading, and introduced me to sanderson who is my all time favorite author now, and really helped me.
I personally have gone off hunger games but The romance wasn't pointless In the epilogue they spell out that Gale and Peta represent Her conflict of vengeance and peace. She literally equates them with fire and water respectively. But yeah gale is underdeveloped.
Your love of both the "god-like alien" and "evil alien" tropes really makes me think you'd appreciate Pandora's Star by Peter F. Hamilton. I think you got it in a PDGDBAB some time back and I got so excited to see it. One of my favourite sci-fi works of all time!
Love at first sight is definitely my least favorite. Even if the characters have a good chemistry the fact that they fell in love without knowing each other kinda sours the relationship
the “Ancient Group of People Who Are Really Good Warriors” trope is alin to the Lost Civilisation/ Fallen Empire trope, but allows for the cool stuff to play an active role. ANY TIME I see some guy say “Oh, the -blank-?? Those guys are insane! One of those is worth at least five men in battle!” I add two to the score I’m gonna rate that book
I have a soft spot for arrogant kung fu or fighting masters, especially if they can back up that shit talk. They're always fun to read or watch. I also love smart characters, so characters that can think, or are clever, I can't get enough of. Especially if they're smart, and they can hold their own in a scrap.
One super specific trope I love is “description of senses that do not exist” Paul Artreides precognition, Skitter’s bug sense, Drizzt infravision, many allomantic sensorial powers and etc. It’s kinda specific, but is a thing that only novels do right and in a satisfying way, when other mediums try to replicate, it feels kinda awkward or not as immersive
fallen kingdoms/falling kingdoms post golden-age/exploring ruins of fallen kingdoms are so good, and this trope is especially good in video games. For the no-killing trope, it is SO dependant on the narrative+character+narrative morality. Like one character may not kill and work alongside a character that does kill in the same narrative, and they can both be justified in this based on their own perspectives. Some narratives will have the strength of character be not killing (Batman) while other narratives will have the strength of character be being able to kill/understanding that there are situations where you have no other choice (Attack on Titan),
fav use of grizzled veteran trope is Auron from FFX - actually that also has my fav use of ruined civilization trope too. subverts the farm boy trope by having main character be a famous athlete basically transported to a farm boy-esque setting via ruined civilization. i guess that's the new world trope too, altho that's also subverted for reasons that gradually become clear. that game is so good.
Re: Story within a story I'm planning to use a set in a character moment - the found family gathered around a campfire telling ghost stories. Sure, you can get a bit of mythos, but it's also showing the trio having a nice moment together. Plus character-building for what story each character picks and how they tell it. Basically put the spotlight more on the storyteller than on the story.
John Brunner was the master of multiple POV/narrative lines merging progressively. His books started chaotic, with seemingly unrelated stories, and everything progressively come together in a beautiful (but usually horrific for the characters...) way. It creates very strong emotions for the reader, as both a revelation and an inescapable tragedy. "The Sheep Look Up" still give me shivers more than 20 years after I last read it.
I would love to see ancient artifacts of a fantasy world used in a more modern setting. Additionally, I would love to see something like someone enchanting the infantry squad's LMG or an artillery peice.
Interestingly Dresden might be a good example of the star child trope as you described it. I think the fact that his special nature has been so minor through most of the novels allows it to come forward more and more without being overbearing.
I’d love if you could cover some Kurt Vonnegut books and stories, with him being my first contact with any kind of sci fi. I think his stuff should be covered more than it is
I'd say laser sword in space is good for space ship boarding conflict. After all, don't want to puncture the hole with shooting lasers or plasma. Even shooting projectile rounds can be dangerous , especially depending on the technology and if there is armoring , shielding, or other such devices that make projectile ammo be useless in personal combat. So, I could see laser swords and shields being a thing for ship boarding.
Batman's moral code is why I prefer The Shadow as a character. The Shadow has his own moral code, and it's that villains deserve a death of their own making.
Ooo I like that, cause it's giving them the choice change and live continue being a villain and die. Any recommendations on where to start with The Shadow?
@@myrojyn For prose novels, The first 10 Pulp novels. The Living Shadow The Eyes of The Shadow The Shadow Laughs The Red Menace Gangdom's Doom The Death Tower The Silent Seven The Black Master The Mobsmen on the Spot Hands in the Dark For Comics, The Shadow Strikes, The Shadow Year One or Blood and judgment.
I feel that whole “Technology that is used once and never discussed again”. Like after reading Leviathan Wakes, why aren’t all combatants chewing on those “Mental Booster Lozenges”? Are they only reserved for interrogation????
And here's a star trek kicker. They have a teleporter that can store people in a buffer, and actually materialize them again later somewhere else. There was quite a few times this was a forgotten option for health emergencies of one form or another, or things like that. It's like the instant pause button on life, to be saved in good condition that is usually thought of in terms of a simple transportation system.
@@adrianbundy3249 star trek teleporters scare the $h*t out of me (as it basically kills you and then there's a clone of you walking around, but YOU, you are dead) they stored people digitally in stargate atlantis (the enemies of that show used it to kidnap people to feed on, yikes), and the gate itself did the same as the star trek teleporter (takes you apart, yikes!) I don't like this kind of tech, flying through a wormhole as way better, imho, lol medically speaking, yes, you're right, or it could be like the identity discs in tron (tron legacy, namely), the girl got her arm blown off and "tron lebowski" fixed her "code" and she grew a new arm... so, you'd like store a person in the buffer, "fix" them while still in there, then materialize them and they're healed/cured/whatever (tho I prefer seven of nine's nanites to raise me from death, like she did with Neelix, which he hated, because there was no afterlife, poor guy)
Followed by friends becoming enemies. And no, not the oh, the were friends for a chapter or two, and then most of the stories, he was the big villain. No, I like slide where it feels like you can slowly see the descent, and the real friction that happens, and they try to fix it, and they even do so, back and forth for a long time, they care... So when at the end of 4 seasons, or 4 book saga, when he is the villain the hero has to actually finally fight at the end, it hurts all the more, and you feel it.
Daniel, that is a nail for a temple foundation. It was seized by the police a few years back from a dealer. The best part about it is that "tube" tells the story in a language called Cuneiform of a fantasy trope in and of itself... dedications to a king, from a slave. It was found in the wall in a temple in the ancient Iraqi town of Girsu.
I’ve always loved the master-apprentice trope, someone who teaches the other new skills or has unorthodox methods of teaching. It’s especially good whenever you can see the apprentice character’s progression. Ah, makes me smile every time.
A trope you forgot: tier lists. /jk Honestly, 99% of tier lists on YT bore me but yours always have my eyes glued to the screen. Always a fun thing to watch. :)
I'm excited for him to get to the most famous "power up" moment in berserk and see what he has to say because imo it's one of the most well executed and satisfying power ups I've seen in literature and cinema
If you like books where authors science their way out of everything, you NEEEEED to read/watch Dr Stone. The manga and anime are almost scene for scene so you can do either. But the author literally puts in the front page every single science and survival book he referenced for that chapter.
Was thinking the exact same thing. If people want to recommend Daniel manga to read, Dr. Stone is HANDS DOWN the best use of science I’ve seen possibly in any fiction story I’ve read
I like this tier list. I never really thought about "science-ing the shit out of" a magic system before...but in hindsight I think that's why I enjoy books that explore hard magic systems or have game-y magic systems so much (Series like Arcane Ascension or He Who Fights With Monsters) as well as books that present from the perspective of someone discovering the limits and ends of magic (such as Spellmonger). If you haven't read any of these series I recommend them quite highly.
Why did I spend 3 min rewinding the video to confirm it was flipped at the start and not just Daniel flipping the wrist brace and watch for no reason? I think my brain wasn't yet awake enough to figure it out sooner...😅
I want a book that uses practically every trope and follows the main character(s) through a giant quest to save the world. And then at the end the world is saved by someone other side character just doing their job like they were supposed to be doing the whole time and the main characters efforts end up counting for basically nothing except furthering their own growth as a person.
I like the Daniel constantly injuring his hand trope.
The lotion is a bad mother fucker
I say it's an overdone, boring, unoriginal cliché
Pff@@wooshmeifurgay7452
I love the anti-antichrist trope, where you have someone fated to be evil or bring about some diaster and they choose to work against it. It's kinda this ultimate expression of free will and moral choice to me.
i'm very interested, can you give some examples
@@arjundesai4476 Hellboy and Good Omens are some prominent examples. There's also an entire TV tropes page which can give a lot more.
@@benjaminsuess447 Iwas going to say Good Omens. Can't stand Hell Boy, but that is also a good example.
@@arjundesai4476 also The Wheel of Time! Kind of.
@@arjundesai4476 Also (Potential SPOILER warning for the Stormlight Archives) Renarin Kholin
One of my favorite tropes is "ancient high tech" that ties into the "ruins of a dead civilization" trope. It's when the long dead civilization possess a much higher level of technology than the current one.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" (that's what I use in my works, anyway, it's never really fantasy or supernatural, huh... sci-fi in disguise!)
One Piece moment
Just like in Mega Man Star Force 2! That was my first introduction to the trope as a child and I absolutely love it now.
The History Channel presents Ancient Aliens.
Yooo I’m actually doing that rn!
I would love to see a farm boy trope done where the fact that the protagonist is a farm boy is somehow crucial later on. Like they get to the climax and nobody knows how to grow corn until the hero arrives and saves the day
Lol
That actually happened in "The magicians" they also made a point to comment on or subvert every trope they could get their hands on.
OooOohh! ^-^ Me likes!~!! 💜 👏
Already been done lol
"Oh no, the fate of our entire existence rests on our ability to produce cheese!", she exclaims.
"Cheese you say?", our protoganist confidently asks as he walks in the room holding a cheese wheel.
My absolute favorite trope is when a fantasy world is slowly or eventually revealed to be built on the bones of our civilization.
Have you read the broken Earth trilogy, or the Red Queen's war trilogy?
@@morphing_erebus no, and I greatly appreciate the recommendation!
"A distant, forgotten past, or a far-flung future (note: "post post-apocalypse"), either way, we may never know for sure." (hehe) :)
@@ArinJager1 you get it. My present has to be only bones though, the truth, revealed to me, has to be alluded to. I don't actually know for certain where this trope captured me, I remember some dim hint of a fantasy book barely describing the long buried remains of a clover leaf interchange. Possibly a hint of what to them was an ancient lost city. But that feels like that was all that was said in that story. I might be wrong, maybe I'm writing this book and attributing it to someone else before even finding a pen. I also think I remember the Shannara series maybe at some point came out with that as a plot line? I can't remember exactly, I consumed fantasy series so rapidly and for so long now that whole volumes were only partially digested. And I find they are never as appealing the second time through....
Not a book but Adventure Time captures this pretty well. Starts out as a fun, fantasy kids TV world with the main protagonist randomly being human in a world filled with weird creatures, and as the seriousness and plot ramps-up we learn its a post-apocalyptic Earth.
"Lost Ancient Civilization" is my favorite trope. It provides mystery and it makes the world/universe feel more expansive and lived in.
It's also a powerful source for twists, when they uncover some dark secret from the past that re-contextualizes their current world(view).
I love when parts of them remain, and are coveted by the civilisations present. Like the Targaryens being the last Valyrians and the Valyrian steel swords.
Uhh, do you got some book recommendations with this trope?
Yup! If you want recommendations, Hollow Knight does this FLAWLESSLY. It’s not a book, but it’s a really good video game, I recommend you check it out!
One of my favorite tropes is two powerful characters from separate subplots coming into conflict. The moment when they both realize they are dealing with a serious threat is so satisfying.
Any recommendations?
I'd recommend my book but it's not done yet. 😂
@@archlectoryarvi2873 I recommend a manga called Vagabond. The conflict between Musashi and Kojiro is great
Oh hell yeah, absolutely love it.
This! Yess! But I haven't read many books with this trope sadly...
My favourite trope of all and I don’t care how played out it is I love it, the classic “I am your father/mother”
There's one in locked tomb series and loved it
_I was your father all along!_
Some of my favorites: "well intentioned leader, corrupt court." This can be anything from Ned Stark to Jayce from Arcane. And the somewhat related "burden of the crown" trope.
Sengoku
"good king, evil advisors" was what a lot historical people (medieval-early modern) thought about their rulers.
the latter books of Sanderson's Mistborn sort of get into this.
@@pIayingwithmahwii While the mistborn books are great it's not quite what I was talking about. A lot of modern fantasy these days acts kind of embarrassed to have monarchies since it feels like ASOIAF has reminded everyone about how they're actually a terrible form of government, and Mistborn is no exception with them treating the last empire as compromising ideals to match the crisis. Although in real life Monarchies sucked, there's no reason fantasy *has* to always mirror that and sometimes I want a story that plays it straight with a heroic king upholding (or just trying to uphold) a tradition of nobility and honor.
Not a book, but a webcomic "White Noise" does this as well, though its not the main focus it is a large driving force behind the conflict the protagonists face
One of my favourite tropes is “chosen one realising they’re not the chosen one.” I especially love it when they’re relived by it, like, “thank f*ck, I’m going to take a nap now, tell me when you find the right person.”
And it’s obviously someone they know because plot, but the point remains the same
"Every trope can be done well." Hard agree. My favorite fantasy tv show (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) has my least favorite trope (the chosen one). My favorite trope is the self defeating evil. I love it when an antagonist's own actions cause his or her downfall.
I think one of the reasons Buffy gets away with it is because she fails. Constantly. It's amazing how much failure can improve your PR.
Isn't Rand major chosen one trope. Also Harry Potter..
Buffy isn't really a chosen one I wouldn't say. She is a chosen one chosen by fate to fight evil. If she died there would be another to be chosen.
@@mr.e7541 Harry isn't really a chosen one either. It's implied HEAVILY that Nevill could've very easily been Harry in terms of becoming Voldemort's 8th horcrux and thus, being the key to ultimately killing him, had Voldemort decided Neville was the one. Hell if anything, the only reason Harry made it as far as he did is because everyone else helped him, like Dumbledore, Sirius, Remus, etc. He was a savant at Quidditch, but was average at best at spells, and most of his special abilities that gave him an edge, such as speaking parstletounge and being unable to be killed by voldemort because they shared sibling wands, having a spiritual connection to him, etc, came from circumstances that fell upon him by chance.
In other words, Harry was one of TWO boys born on a prophesied day. But considering Neville killed Nagina, I'd say both him and Harry were the "chosen one"
Rands chosen one path in books was quite good tho
Tropes are tools, they are not good or bad.
In the case of Batman, the “no killing” thing works. I hate that trope, and for so long I didn’t get why Batman didn’t kill and loved Snyder’s for that, but I’ve realized that it has nothing to do with thinking killing is inherently bad, otherwise he wouldn’t be friends with Jim, who has certainly killed, but it is out of fear of what he could become if he crossed that line. He’s just holding on to his sanity by a hair, and having that limit is the only thing keeping him from becoming a total psychopathic murderer. As he says in Under the Red Hood, “if I allow myself to go down into that place, I’ll never come out.” So most of the time that trope is horrible, but when explored well, like it is with Batman, it’s great.
Edit: I should clarify that I don’t mean a natural reluctance to kill is bad, I find characters that have an emotional response to the prospect of killing so much more compelling, but when it’s just out of some sort of arbitrary code, especially if it only applies to the big baddie and not his minions, that’s the generally bad trope.
Not killing, in general, is an admirable quality. Someone not wanting blood on their hands or soul is probably one of the most easily relatable qualities you can write into a character who is forced into violence, assuming most people don't actually want to kill people. It can be a contrivance but most tropes, when done poorly are exactly that anyway.
It's rare that a trope makes a character or story more unique. Without that trope Batman becomes entirely indistinguishable from the plethora of anti-hero killer vigilantes that completely over-saturate modern comics.
That's always the take but really doesn't make much sense either. After a while all of the Joker's bodies should weigh on Batman and his mental health but we never really explore how Bruce feels after the 6th time Joker goes on a killing spree after another escape.
Does he send money to their families, reads their obituaries and blame himself, ever try to argue for capital punishment using lobbyists to convince politicians and judges, or push hard to try to fix Joker and the other villains via mental health developments? The idea Batman would go crazy if he crossed the line would work better if Bruce was portrayed more often as on the fringe instead of either a total rock or punisher-lite when they tell that latter story.
I hate when when they kill minions but don't kill the main bad guy
The ones that take me out are when the character won't kill anyone, but they have no problem working alongside a Punisher type character who straight up executes the mooks the MC takes down non-lethally.
One that obsessed me since I started reading: "The protagonist that slowly but surely becomes the antagonist". One of the very early books I read was a trilogy narrating Alexandros since childhood to manic tyrant. Which is a similar reason of why DUNE became one of the most influencing tales for me the second I got it. And ever since, a well executed "Road to Perdition" is to me an instant hook. How to forget also such powerful characters like Prometeus or the interpretation of Lucifer given by James Joyce. I'd also like to add Cao Cao from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
Hell, besides exquisite narration skills my main drive to read Kvothe-self-propaganda is the hope he turns out to be a big bad dick at the end of it all.
Anakin if watching star wars in chronic order. Star wars was highly inspired by Dune
I love that trope too. It’s the reason I love Heartless by Marissa Meyer. The main girl starts as this loveable, sweet character who is obsessed with baking and has a crush on a guy, but she gets steadily colder and more evil as the novel goes. It’s rather like watching a train wreck.
This trope is one of the main reasons why I stuck through Worm for the whole thing. Taylor Herbert starts as this injured puppy that you just want to hug better, and ends up as, well, not that.
By „a trilogy narrating Alexandros since childhood to manic tyrant” you meant something about Alexander the great? If yeas, can you please give a title?😅
@@elentari_22 sure, "Alexandros" by Valerio Massimo Manfredi.
Goblin: eliminates two rank categories "get outta here, we don't need you"
Also Goblin: puts multiple tropes halfway between two categories because there's not enough categories for everything to have its own place.
Helm's Deep will forever taint my mind to be biased towards heroic last stands
Look up the Battle of Vienna in 1683. Tolkien was inspired heavily by that battle when writing the battle of Helm's deep, with the riders of Rohirrim being inspired by the Winged Hussars.
Hell yes!
see… although I adore the Helm’s Deep sequence I despise the heroic last stand trope.
The reason I actually like it at Helm’s Deep is because there it is the only appropriate course of action. The nature of the villain and the setup for the battle make it appropriate there. Without that kind of setup though… the trope is terrible, overused and ridiculous. Most of what is wrong with the fantasy genre is people trying to replicate Tolkien without having much understanding of what he did or how he did it.
Something I want to say regarding Irredeemable evil aliens...
for me, this works much MUCH better, if they aren't "evil" but just their nature.
Example being the Xenomorphs, they aren't inherently evil (as far as II understand it anyway) but rather they just follow their very predatory nature.
Which is very unfortunate for us.
Not sci-fi, but fantasy. The Fell in the Books of the Raksura are very much like this. They're not actually evil, but they are a species of greedy predators that don't have any empathy or love except between each other and even that is an extremely distorted and unhealthy version of the word "love". They hunt people and desire their things, without having any concept of value for them, nor caring about the suffering they inflict. Sapient species are simple food and entertainment for them.
In another story this would be simply labeling them as evil, but we see a fair amount of variations of sapient predator species with various degrees of empathy and opinions about each other, some of which really don't mind eating sapient people either because food is food and well, luring them in with sweet words works just as well as stalking them to hunt them doesn't it?
So they're irredeemable because why in the world would they change? Its literally in their nature. But its not evil. Its just taking advantage of the fact that they're just as smart as you are. Prey and predator are on the same level again.
Xenomorphs are considered inherently evil by some fans, because they're a bioweapon in the current canon. Some comics have them as simply evolving on a very hostile planet, but currently they were created, for the express purpose of enacting genocide. They have no will of their own, etc. being more likened to nuclear weapons or rogue AI rather than animals.
I'm not a fan of the idea of an intelligent race that's congenitally evil, because that just completely flattens out individual characteristics. An unrelenting, ravenous animal type of species is pretty awesome. But it's hard to call that 'evil'. I wouldn't call polar bears evil but I sure wouldn't want to wake up to one in my yard.
@@mattrobson3603 That depends.
A species can be fully sentient and sapient and still be "perceived" as evil by the simple fact that they are hostile to us.
Imagine an alien species that are predators by nature. Aka, they are intelligent carnivores. Do they technically have any reason to not try and kill and eat us?
@tnecniw I believe that nature is a very fragile point to lean on regarding fiction. Nothing in a narrative is truly natural because it's all created by a writer
This might sound overly pedantic at first, but truly natural, instinctual entities exist in a larger, natural environment where their behaviour makes sense as a part of the greater whole.
Short of Tolkien, very few authors think that deeply about worldbuilding, which is super understandable, he went hard, but it does lead to a lot of dead ends when we dig into stories. (It's the reason we should try not to get too sweaty about Star Wars lore etc...)
Regarding something like the xenomorphs, my take is that they're closer to a fantasy monster than an animal. They are vaguely humanoid but move on all fours (usually), they look almost skeleton-like, they bleed acid and, most importantly, are never shown to eat. They kill, they violate, but they don't eat. Like some sort of serial killer/grapist. What natural environment would create that? I doubt any.
"I refuse to spread the lie that Star Wars invented laser swords and space"
Huh. Here I was thinking space was invented in the 70s.
Late 60's, actually.
_what is the space? A miserable pile of secrets!_
Based on S categories, in the future, someone will write a book about two protagonists, an evil mentor and his ex student from an evil empire. Competing in a race which one first will find a key in the deadly ruins of long gone city. The key shows coordinate to the new word in which flying city located with whatever macguffin the heroes craving for. Sounds cheesy :D
Cheesy? Sounds awesome!
I am here for it
Would totally watch that.
I love how wheel of time has most of the tropes lower in the list, but executes each of them masterfully. farm boy, incredibly powerfull chosen one, cant kill women, etc etc
WoT got away with these lower tier tropes, because they did them before they got played to death
@@mwva13 not really. Wheel of time came out in 1990, and these wwre done long before. it got away because it did these tropes in brand new ways and excecuted them masterfully
I never thought about my favourite trope, but I've now realised that the noble bastard trope is my favourite; mainly because Fitz and Farseer (soon-to-be Realm of the Elderlings as a whole) has reshaped my entire view on fantasy.
There's nothing that gets me more than the mere mention of FitzChivalry Farseer 😭😭😭 RotE is my all-time favorite ♥
FitzChivalry Farseer is my favourite character of all time.
@@sirgoo9962 for me it's really the trio of Fitz, the Fool, and Nighteyes 😭
@@valarya YES ! They make me so emotional, the inconditionnel love between these three is everything ❤️
I just finished the Fool and the Assassin series, and I cry.
I cry for the characters, both of joy and sadness, and I cry because I already miss this story 😭
I know many people say its the most overplayed trope, but personally I love the chosen one trope. Especially when the trope is used subtly with hints here and there within the plot to it
I kind of hate it.
Usually it just undermines character's choices and challenges they faced. "Yeah, sure, you have come this far because of your determination and strong will and all, but did you know you were destined for greatness this entire time and fate wouldn't let you fail? It was, in fact, not because of tour strength of character, but because of quite literally plot armor. Still, good job beating that guy who was destined to fail from the start"
I really enjoyed it in John Gwyne's Faithful and the Fallen as it was somewhat ambiguous (at least at the start).
Edit: oh and Lightbringer
@@iamdivan7368 IMO when it's done well the Chosen One has the potential to bring about the good ending, but it's not certain
@@iamdivan7368 There's plenty of real world examples of "farm boy saves the day" so you can use that to help your suspension of disbelief.
@@iamdivan7368 I’ve been thinking lately that the way to save this trope is to de-emphasize “destiny”. The meaning of being a chosen one shouldn’t be someone who is simply fated to win, but instead a person who by circumstance is uniquely positioned and capable of accomplishing the task. Because that is a very real thing- no one’s accomplishments occur in a vacuum, we stand on the shoulders of giants right.
So you can have a chosen one who isn’t innately special, but just happen to be in the right place at the right time, but still have to struggle and earn their victories (and have failures).
It’s funny, I was just thinking about love triangles and how much I generally dislike them, but now I realize that it may be more that I dislike the ”characters who only exist to be love interests”, because almost all love triangles in books also rely on that trope to make it “work”.
Personally what I hate about this trope is when it's done with immature people who will violently compete, fight, hate, disdain their "opponent" and/or if the trio are just all ending hurting eatch others.
I only like it when it's done with emotionally matured people/who grow over the story.
It's funny because I generally like love triangle and also like when a character only Exists to be a love interest
My issue with the love triangles, is it really just doesn't work most often because it requires lack of commitments, and decision making, and just idiocy and lack of communication, goodness gracious. Okay, quite a lot of things that feed into it when I got started :)
There's a reason why I think they aren't very typical or easy to see in IRL romances. They CAN happen. And even where they do, they are probably, well, not ideal. It's the rare ones that get it all together. I suppose that's true for most relationships though, but that is that extra element of hard.
And if I can't believe the characters, or I think they're just being contrived to be dumb on a number of issues to make it work, I will like them less.
know what's worse? a character that's friendzoned (and cock-blocked) just to be friendzoned... a "bait and switch love triangle" (like how Shulk ends up with Fiora - a typical love interest for the sake of being a love interest, and friendzones Melia - a much more interesting character with an actual backstory, unlike Fiora, the "childhood friend") [it's from the xenoblade videogame, just an example, don't mind me]
even worse than that? A bait and switch love interest that gets killed off (which Fiora did get killed off too, semingly, but then she comes back for some reason, reason being getting possessed by some spirit or whatever... she's missing for the majority of the story and still gets the D... unlike the other girl who spends more time with the protag)
I once saw a love triangle that did work (at least for me) because all members of the triangle were adults, all were developped characters, and the reason why the triangle existed was good for me : woman loves a man, they get together, good. Man 1 is killed, woman grieves then develops a romance with man 2. But man 1 gets resurected and man 2 gets cursed and disappears. Woman relives a bit her story with man 1 but ultimately has to choose cause magic makes that only one can live.
Very simplified, but that is a love triangle I can appreciate.
" Teen girl loves boy 1 but oh no she loves boy 2 too she can't choose, they will have to fight to win her stupid heart, so hard", can go to hell 😠
On the topic of both fallen civilizations and ancient artefacts. I think you should check out Frostbound by Dylan King, available on Royal Road for free. There is just something about giant statues and bulidings dilapidated and covered in ice that makes me go YASSSS whenever they are mentioned.
Farm Boy/Small Village will forever be GOATed for me, it allows for the greatest level of contrast between where the character begins and where they end. Guess it depends on the story you're telling, but for a travelogue I think it's essential. If a character starts out in a big city then they're likely already more knowledgeable about the wider world and the reader won't get to learn about as many things through the eyes of that character discovering them for the first time. Thinking of stories like One Piece, Luffy wasn't a farmer but he starts out in a small village.
rising to glory by own means (or falling from grace and then rising once more) is a way better thing than the chosen hero (who's got a plot armor and that's about it)
Daniel: Farm Boy Chosen One tropes are kinda played out ngl.
Rand Al'Thor: Am I a joke to you?
6:04 That artefact is what's called a clay nail/foundantion cone; used in ancient Mesopotamia in the third and early second millenium BC. These were basically cylindrical nail-like cones inscribed with cuneiform then baked and stuck into temple foundations, basically to serve as markers that the temple or whatever ritual building was the divine property of the god (in ancient Mesopotamia, it was believed that each city basically belonged to a that city's patron deit(ies), and the temple was where the god physically dwelt in the form of a statue/idol.)
These cones also usually denoted the specific king who deposited the cone, usually with some self-laudatory language, both to legitimize himself (pretty much all Mesopotamian rulers were dudes bar one or two per millenium) as the rightful monarch of X city-state(s).
A good example from the late 20th century BC comission by Lipit-Eshtar of the city-of Isin goes: "When I, Lipit-Eshtar, the humble shepherd of Nippur, the true farmer of Ur, ceaseless provider of Eridu, the en priest suitable for Uruk, king of Isin, king of Sumer and Akkad, the favourite of Inana, established justice in Sumer and Akkad, then I built the E-mete-namlugala, my great residence."
thought it was an ancient egyptian butt plug (not really, just kidding)
It's so, so difficult to escape some of these, it makes everything easier and allows the reader to understand things much quicker. One phrase "He was the bastard son of the king, he lived in the castle his whole life". Done, almost anything can be justified with only that. Choose a personality and all the intrigues, secrets, eventual conflicts can be explained some way or the other.
The 'farm boy' explains why the characters do not know anything and are 'pure' of heart. The 'going to a new world' is essentially the same thing, with the twist that it can allow people to be more cunning or deceptive if desired.
The master and disciple allow you to know things you shouldn't, be them good or bad, and to develop their power much faster than 'normal'.
The 'good bastard' trope allows the character to be involved in all forms of politics but still be free to travel, or to have a justification to battle against others and know secret information.
The chosen one allows for all the coincidences and 'destiny' to play a role, most times coupled with other tropes, it also gives a strong initial motivation by the protagonist being/having something the bad guy desires/despises. Also very convenient for sudden powerbursts and new powers.
New authors can either benefit immensely, or be trapped in the hell of only writing stereotypes and tropes.
A trope I really dislike is memory loss. Specifically later in the story. I can be sold on it if it’s the premise of a story, but I hate it when the emotional history I have shared with a character is suddenly gone
Thank you! Someone said it!
Appreciate this Goblin. I'm in the middle of outlining a Sci/Fi novel that I plan to have a rough draft completed by the end of 2022 and this was really helpful. Just to see how many tropes I have unconsciously included in my outline. I am now changing an "instant level-up" I had inadvertently created for my main protagonist. It was lazy, I agree.
I'd love to see a "magic system trope" tier list. Loved your soft v hard magic system video, and I'd love to see a rundown of things like "storing your magic in an item for later" "this item multiplies your magic powers" "this area somehow totally negates your power" "certain people can only access one aspect of a more complex power"
A good subversion of the chosen one trope is if a chosen one was destined to save the world, but decided to instead take the power for themselves for evil.
Basically Anakin Skywalker, but becoming evil by his own choice, instead of being manipulated.
Mistborn also has an interesting subversion on the chosen one trope.
Or a chosen one who thinks he's destined to save his own ppl but finds out he was deatined to save his enemies.
@@jacindaellison3363 oooo I like that subversion
@@jacindaellison3363 I've always wondered about that. A story told from two "chosen one" perspectives, each destined to the be the heroes of competing prophecies/gods and fight each other would be interesting.
Tai Lung from Kung Fu Panda fits this subversion.
I think one of the reasons The Expanse is one of the best sci-fi shows of all time (come at me) is because they were so fucking SMART with what future-technology would look like... in addition to actually having physics that makes sense for space travel (like thrusters in the FRONT of the ship). I digress - but it means I agree with the placement of the misuse of future-tech being total trash tier lol edit: oh hey, The Expanse also has some ruins of ancient alien civilization stuff thrown in!
The Expanse has alien artifact opening up to new worlds that are fallen ancient civilization, godlike alien threat, failing empire (inner planets), power up through ancient alien tech and Holden is quite a bit of a farm boy. They have actually used majority of the mentioned tropes and did it solid to excellent. Different points of view all coming together, separating and coming back together was used ridiculously well.
@@marciusnhasty oh my god, spot ON - and I didn't even realize half of these. 😅 too bad no season 7
I really enjoy how there's a distinct lack of FTL travel. It really strengthens the conflicts in the settings, as they can't instantly teleport elsewhere whenever things go south. Not to bash on FTL tropes: I really enjoy it and some settings like Warhammer 40k are super creative in how they function.
I 100% agree with the fallen world trope! That always pulls me in even if I don't know anything else about the story. I start books and movies on that premise alone. 😂
Can you recommend books that follow that trope?
@@markpiezema7592 wheel of time. Mistborn. Elantris sort of is. Shades of magic has it in a small way. Sweet tooth is a graphic novel or Netflix series, there is a lot of dystopian ya that uses that trope but a lot of those i started for the trope but didn't finish.
IMO examples of good rapid power up: Knights Radiant swearing the next ideal. I feel like Brando does it pretty well.
I didn't consider it quick because speaking the words is just a small part of it. It's always about finding them first, and that is pain.
I enjoy the chosen one trope when it's not the main character, it makes the chosen one actually seem important and on a level way beyond the main character, actually great.
Edit : Another thing I want to bring up is the power up trope, I love it when used on the villan, especially when against the chosen one.
Any exampled
As someone who worked at Farm Boy in Ontario, Canada for years, thank you for throwing that logo up there hahahah
Artifacts that have fascinating history and are well integrated into the lore of the world are great, but so often their ancient artifact-ness is just a thin mask to make the miguffin look more interesting.
This is the reason why I am surprised it was rated so high. It can be done very well, I would just argue its very rare to be seen done well.
After this, just hope Daniel will review "Legend of Vox Machina" Season 1. Mainly because full of clichés he may don't like and curious about his oppinion, even if I love the series. Also wish to bring joy to others, not just Critters! :)
Laser swords count as swords, and I like swords in space
dude, the proto lightsabers in the ancient times of the galaxy far far away, with the battery packs and all that jazz... are sweet!
One of my absolute favorite tropes is like the fallen hero? Usually they seem to be the mentor or something but I would consume that trope anyway it came. I would consume it a thousand times if I could. Like Kvothe in the 3rd person part of NotW
Can you recommend good books that follow that trope?
I think my favorite trope is the badass that doesn't want to fight anymore, but their past is catching up to them. I'm referring to characters like Kenshin, Vash the Stampede, Dalinar, etc.
Duuude I'm so with you. I just don't see this trope often enough.
You have a unique ability to articulate your thoughts and simultaneously make me laugh with your comedic cadence, so thank you.
Same, he has amazing cartoonish facial expressions and intonations. He made me rewind several times certains parts of this vid. ^^
Great vid Daniel. I'd also love to see some book recommendations on these troupes, especially the S tier ones
Malazan Book of the Fallen uses some of those, especially the ones concerned with scale and time, however this also makes it harder to understand according to many people.
The fifth season has a few. A bit difficult to grasp but once you do it's awesome how it comes together.
The Wheel of Time. Just, The Wheel of Time
My mother always complains about the "Hero losing his powers" trope. She's reading this because she wants to the magician do magic. I'm a little hazy on the definition of trope, but if my understanding is correct, my favorite thing in all of the stories is when the cavalry arrives(ie Borderlanders arrive in Elfstones or Rohan arriving in LOTR). LOVE IT. Two of my least favorite that I can think of as I write this are 1)the wiping out of whole cities repeatedly within one story to the point where you basically get numbed to the death and 2) The incredibly powerful enemy that can't be stopped until the writer realizes they've made them too tough and just makes them able to be killed now for no real reason (ie Earthrise).
if you want to see an a great example of both mind control as well as 2 conflicting protagonists, read the manga: Code Geass, it masterfully handles both of those tropes simultaneously as well learning and exploring a fun magic system with great characters all in a beautifully jacked up world
I just thought about writing this, & then found this comment !
Both of these have been done well enough that their inherent constraints are essential plot elements
I love that Daniel uses Twilight as the love Triangle when... was it? Really? Jacob never stood a chance.
He did in the hearts and minds of many a teenage girls.
Unbalanced love triangle perhaps, but it is one nonetheless.
As soon as you said “sciencing your way out of a situation” I squealed. I love that as both an author and reader, and it’s hands down my favorite on this list. In fact, the fact it isn’t done realistically enough is why I became an author. (Also, I’m an electrical engineer, so you know, I’m probably more sensitive to it being done poorly).
My other favorite is the “new world” trope, which almost all the stories I’ve started, even the ones unpublished, also include. Everything I write/come up with typically involves a character who’s only outstanding ability is to be able to realistically “science”, finding themselves in some sort of “new world” (fantasy is my favorite, but sometimes alternate reality/timeline or other planet). Then, using their skills to both resolve their immediate situation, and little by little uncover the properties and relating lore of the world they are in.
The best example of AI gaining sentience I've ever seen is "Detroit Become Human". It deals with SO many implications of androids and artificial intelligence that I had never thought about before. If you haven't already, go play that game!
I love how everyone specifies how awful lovecraft was when they say they love lovecraftian horror
I don't know why but I just became emotional watching this. It just made me nostalgic, I found this channel when i was going through tough times and it got me back into reading, and introduced me to sanderson who is my all time favorite author now, and really helped me.
As a Canadian who shops at farm boy I was very confused about why their logo was in the thumbnail🤣
I personally have gone off hunger games but The romance wasn't pointless In the epilogue they spell out that Gale and Peta represent Her conflict of vengeance and peace. She literally equates them with fire and water respectively. But yeah gale is underdeveloped.
Oathbringer had solid "team is all here" trope
Daniel: Hates last minute Powerups
Also Daniel: Fan of the Final Empire
I was thinking of that too, but it's well explained enough to not actually be a sudden power up.
@@varenoftatooine2393 is it? I finished well of ascension today and I still don't know how she broke the rules of allomancy.
@@jamessloven2204 there is always another secret
Your love of both the "god-like alien" and "evil alien" tropes really makes me think you'd appreciate Pandora's Star by Peter F. Hamilton. I think you got it in a PDGDBAB some time back and I got so excited to see it. One of my favourite sci-fi works of all time!
Love at first sight is definitely my least favorite. Even if the characters have a good chemistry the fact that they fell in love without knowing each other kinda sours the relationship
your sci-fi videos have really helped me with worldbuilding and creating my own sci-fi novel. thank you!
the “Ancient Group of People Who Are Really Good Warriors” trope is alin to the Lost Civilisation/ Fallen Empire trope, but allows for the cool stuff to play an active role. ANY TIME I see some guy say “Oh, the -blank-?? Those guys are insane! One of those is worth at least five men in battle!” I add two to the score I’m gonna rate that book
I like how even the ones you put lowest you still point out that they can be done well.
I have a soft spot for arrogant kung fu or fighting masters, especially if they can back up that shit talk. They're always fun to read or watch.
I also love smart characters, so characters that can think, or are clever, I can't get enough of. Especially if they're smart, and they can hold their own in a scrap.
One super specific trope I love is “description of senses that do not exist”
Paul Artreides precognition, Skitter’s bug sense, Drizzt infravision, many allomantic sensorial powers and etc.
It’s kinda specific, but is a thing that only novels do right and in a satisfying way, when other mediums try to replicate, it feels kinda awkward or not as immersive
You should have had a caption of J.P. Beubiean's Love Triangle meme from his Terrible Writing Advice videos.
I LOVE an immortal cabal. I just realized recently that this is a big fantasy trope and I've loved it everytime I've seen it!
fallen kingdoms/falling kingdoms post golden-age/exploring ruins of fallen kingdoms are so good, and this trope is especially good in video games.
For the no-killing trope, it is SO dependant on the narrative+character+narrative morality. Like one character may not kill and work alongside a character that does kill in the same narrative, and they can both be justified in this based on their own perspectives. Some narratives will have the strength of character be not killing (Batman) while other narratives will have the strength of character be being able to kill/understanding that there are situations where you have no other choice (Attack on Titan),
The moment he said godlike aliens I was thinking about HP lovecraft only to get to vogons and the planet constructor slartibartfast.
fav use of grizzled veteran trope is Auron from FFX - actually that also has my fav use of ruined civilization trope too. subverts the farm boy trope by having main character be a famous athlete basically transported to a farm boy-esque setting via ruined civilization. i guess that's the new world trope too, altho that's also subverted for reasons that gradually become clear. that game is so good.
Re: Story within a story
I'm planning to use a set in a character moment - the found family gathered around a campfire telling ghost stories. Sure, you can get a bit of mythos, but it's also showing the trio having a nice moment together. Plus character-building for what story each character picks and how they tell it. Basically put the spotlight more on the storyteller than on the story.
Who did invent the "laser sword/lightsaber" I'm legit curious. In addition to floating cities I'd like to add underwater cities.
Yes I too am now curious about the origin of the laser sword in space.
The website I found said Isaac Asimov first used them in The Traders (1944)
John Brunner was the master of multiple POV/narrative lines merging progressively. His books started chaotic, with seemingly unrelated stories, and everything progressively come together in a beautiful (but usually horrific for the characters...) way.
It creates very strong emotions for the reader, as both a revelation and an inescapable tragedy. "The Sheep Look Up" still give me shivers more than 20 years after I last read it.
I would love to see ancient artifacts of a fantasy world used in a more modern setting. Additionally, I would love to see something like someone enchanting the infantry squad's LMG or an artillery peice.
Interestingly Dresden might be a good example of the star child trope as you described it. I think the fact that his special nature has been so minor through most of the novels allows it to come forward more and more without being overbearing.
daniel loving the new world trope and then playing isekai dnd is just icing on the cake
I’d love if you could cover some Kurt Vonnegut books and stories, with him being my first contact with any kind of sci fi. I think his stuff should be covered more than it is
I'd say laser sword in space is good for space ship boarding conflict. After all, don't want to puncture the hole with shooting lasers or plasma. Even shooting projectile rounds can be dangerous , especially depending on the technology and if there is armoring , shielding, or other such devices that make projectile ammo be useless in personal combat. So, I could see laser swords and shields being a thing for ship boarding.
Batman's moral code is why I prefer The Shadow as a character.
The Shadow has his own moral code, and it's that villains deserve a death of their own making.
Ooo I like that, cause it's giving them the choice change and live continue being a villain and die.
Any recommendations on where to start with The Shadow?
@@myrojyn For prose novels, The first 10 Pulp novels.
The Living Shadow
The Eyes of The Shadow
The Shadow Laughs
The Red Menace
Gangdom's Doom
The Death Tower
The Silent Seven
The Black Master
The Mobsmen on the Spot
Hands in the Dark
For Comics, The Shadow Strikes, The Shadow Year One or Blood and judgment.
"The shadow knows"
I feel that whole “Technology that is used once and never discussed again”.
Like after reading Leviathan Wakes, why aren’t all combatants chewing on those “Mental Booster Lozenges”? Are they only reserved for interrogation????
And here's a star trek kicker. They have a teleporter that can store people in a buffer, and actually materialize them again later somewhere else. There was quite a few times this was a forgotten option for health emergencies of one form or another, or things like that. It's like the instant pause button on life, to be saved in good condition that is usually thought of in terms of a simple transportation system.
@@adrianbundy3249 star trek teleporters scare the $h*t out of me (as it basically kills you and then there's a clone of you walking around, but YOU, you are dead)
they stored people digitally in stargate atlantis (the enemies of that show used it to kidnap people to feed on, yikes), and the gate itself did the same as the star trek teleporter (takes you apart, yikes!) I don't like this kind of tech, flying through a wormhole as way better, imho, lol
medically speaking, yes, you're right, or it could be like the identity discs in tron (tron legacy, namely), the girl got her arm blown off and "tron lebowski" fixed her "code" and she grew a new arm... so, you'd like store a person in the buffer, "fix" them while still in there, then materialize them and they're healed/cured/whatever (tho I prefer seven of nine's nanites to raise me from death, like she did with Neelix, which he hated, because there was no afterlife, poor guy)
One of my favourite tropes (albeit not exclusive to fantasy/SciFi) is the enemies becoming friends (though a bit too often with benefits).
Followed by friends becoming enemies. And no, not the oh, the were friends for a chapter or two, and then most of the stories, he was the big villain. No, I like slide where it feels like you can slowly see the descent, and the real friction that happens, and they try to fix it, and they even do so, back and forth for a long time, they care...
So when at the end of 4 seasons, or 4 book saga, when he is the villain the hero has to actually finally fight at the end, it hurts all the more, and you feel it.
"The grizzled older veteran"
Ah, yes. The mm daddy trope
I love the fact you put so much stuff in S tier - yes, that makes sense for fans of the genres!
Daniel, that is a nail for a temple foundation. It was seized by the police a few years back from a dealer. The best part about it is that "tube" tells the story in a language called Cuneiform of a fantasy trope in and of itself... dedications to a king, from a slave. It was found in the wall in a temple in the ancient Iraqi town of Girsu.
the godlike aliens have to be my favorite. feeling tiny and inconsequential in a meaningless universe is awesome
I’ve always loved the master-apprentice trope, someone who teaches the other new skills or has unorthodox methods of teaching. It’s especially good whenever you can see the apprentice character’s progression. Ah, makes me smile every time.
"It goes against my moral code" had me dying
A trope you forgot: tier lists.
/jk
Honestly, 99% of tier lists on YT bore me but yours always have my eyes glued to the screen. Always a fun thing to watch. :)
I'm excited for him to get to the most famous "power up" moment in berserk and see what he has to say because imo it's one of the most well executed and satisfying power ups I've seen in literature and cinema
If you like books where authors science their way out of everything, you NEEEEED to read/watch Dr Stone. The manga and anime are almost scene for scene so you can do either. But the author literally puts in the front page every single science and survival book he referenced for that chapter.
Was thinking the exact same thing. If people want to recommend Daniel manga to read, Dr. Stone is HANDS DOWN the best use of science I’ve seen possibly in any fiction story I’ve read
Has to be the besties to mortal enemies trope for me. I dont think i will ever get tired of that one
I love the bard telling a story trope and thats definitely not only because of that wait sequence I promise...
My favorite "Grizzled Veteran" character has to be Auron from FFX.
Sir Auron ,the kenpachi of final fantasy but calmer.👍👍
lol i just commented this too
Hi daniel! Funny skit idea based on Ryan georges video, if a book was released by a video game company, if they were released unfinished.
I like this tier list. I never really thought about "science-ing the shit out of" a magic system before...but in hindsight I think that's why I enjoy books that explore hard magic systems or have game-y magic systems so much (Series like Arcane Ascension or He Who Fights With Monsters) as well as books that present from the perspective of someone discovering the limits and ends of magic (such as Spellmonger). If you haven't read any of these series I recommend them quite highly.
Why did I spend 3 min rewinding the video to confirm it was flipped at the start and not just Daniel flipping the wrist brace and watch for no reason? I think my brain wasn't yet awake enough to figure it out sooner...😅
Based on the thumbnail I was convinced you put a picture of an ice-cream cone in S tier. 🤣😅
You missed one of the GOATs, “the cavalry is here”
0:00 ♫ You do the Goblin Wobbly and you bite your enemy's head off! That's what it's all about! ♫
I love the new tier formatting! The bright green at the bottom always threw me off 😅
I was missing this kind of content from you!
On one hand you have a good point on mind control
on the other hand I love its sheer dramatic potential so I cannot agree
I want a book that uses practically every trope and follows the main character(s) through a giant quest to save the world. And then at the end the world is saved by someone other side character just doing their job like they were supposed to be doing the whole time and the main characters efforts end up counting for basically nothing except furthering their own growth as a person.
Have you read Brandon Sanderson’s work? I don’t want to spoil which one but one of his series takes a route similar to this
My favorite choice for well written power up is the dresden files by Jim Butcher. It happens rather organically!